If Sun's cold, steely glares at Sawyer is any indication, all is not forgiven and forgotten between them. Contrarily, Charlie, with his clean conscience, was smiling, eating and having a merry old time. LOL.

Yeah, what was up with that?? I guess she's really holding a grudge. There at the end, the poor guy was feeling pretty bad... I guess he will learn the hard way that sometimes it takes more than kissing babies and Boar-B-Q's to deal with the consequences of your actions.

Yeah, what was up with that?? I guess she's really holding a grudge. There at the end, the poor guy was feeling pretty bad... I guess he will learn the hard way that sometimes it takes more than kissing babies and Boar-B-Q's to deal with the consequences of your actions.

Yep. I think that's one of Sawyer's main lessons to learn - to deal with the consequences of his actions. Before, he could just move on and find someone else to con. Now he has to live with the people he's conned. Hopefully it'll make him a bit more friendly.

And I'm glad Sun's still holding a grudge, especially since she's pregnant. Sawyer might not have known about the baby at the time, but looking back, Sun knows he could have hurt her child and I bet she is (understandably) quite peeved. I think it would be unrealistic for her to have forgiven him already.

I didn't think her look at him was all that bad - I sort of felt a little pitty there -

Sun is starting to get on my nerves. At first I thought she was one of the decent people on the island. Now, her spoiled (bleep) routine is wearing thin.

True, Sawyers committed cons and has paid for his actions.

However, Sun needs to remember she was literally in bed with a man who was NOT Jin. In addition, that man (IBaldy) turned up dead...

I'm still laughing at "Jin...I've never been with any man but you" but we ALL know Sun is capable of lying.

I didn't think her look at him was all that bad - I sort of felt a little pitty there -

You gotta be kidding me!! All Sun needed was snakes in her hair and Sawyer would've turned to stone. lol.

You gotta be kidding me!! All Sun needed was snakes in her hair and Sawyer would've turned to stone. lol.

Seriously I didn't see it that way -
I saw her look and said to my son - oh she feels sorry for him - she understands his pain -

I actually thought she looked at him and thought this is something he has been searching for his whole life to finally fit in - be part of the Group and be looked at as a Leader but at the same time she felt sadness for him -
and I thought he recognized that -

I wonder if Sun is going to let this go. I hope she lets it go with Charlie because he came forward on his own and was sincerely remorseful. I think she's angrier at Sawyer not only because it was his plan but also because of the way he acted when Sun confronted him. Sun is not going to let this go so easily.

Way to go Sun! She's not a pushover. Don't let him off the hook - especially when he wouldn't even apologize, just gloat over how he thought he'd get away with it. But it doesn't look like she's told Jin, or Sawyer would be toast, as she said.

But Sawyer and Jin have formed a friendship -- He may be forgiving of him -

I wonder if Sun is going to let this go. I hope she lets it go with Charlie because he came forward on his own and was sincerely remorseful. I think she's angrier at Sawyer not only because it was his plan but also because of the way he acted when Sun confronted him. Sun is not going to let this go so easily.

Sun killed someone because of Sawyer's con. She really believed she was in danger from Colleen, or she probably wouldn't have shot her. So Sawyer is indirectly responsible for her death, and for Sun's feeling of guilt.

Again I am confused when did Sun kill Colleen?

When the Others came for the sail boat, Sun was on board, and shot Colleen. This was back in the mini-season

Sun killed someone because of Sawyer's con. She really believed she was in danger from Colleen, or she probably wouldn't have shot her. So Sawyer is indirectly responsible for her death, and for Sun's feeling of guilt.

That may be so but whether she realizes it or not, that fear may have saved Sun's life. If she had hesitated they would have taken her with the boat or killed her. Sun got away because she feared what they would do and rightly so. The attack may have been a favour.

The very least Sawyer can do is apologize.. which I can see him doing eventually. Then I think she will let him off the hook.

I loved Sun's look. Sawyer deserved it. Love sawyer though too. but he was a *beep* for doing that

What was great was that it actually bothered Sawyer. He knows he's not off the hook, and I get the feeling he's going to do something about it. Maybe cowboy up an apology?

Maybe cowboy up an apology?

Hee-hee...that was cute!

Remember, immediately before Charlie confessed to her, she said to Hurley, "Saywer's not a murderer." Granted, he didn't murder anyone, but his plan could have seriously hurt her - she was unconsious for a period of time-- and probably more horrifying to her, caused her to miscarry. And there is he holding little Aaron.

He didn't even apologize for doing something egregiously wrong. It wasn't a little prank, it was criminal, he was an accessory to a crime, and he essentially tried to laugh it off rather than take responsibility for it, which is what I think she was hoping for. After all, she was one of the few who seemed to genuinely like Sawyer.

But as Zoriah pointed out, the important thing to note about this scene is Sawyer's reaction to her glare. He didn't shrug it off, he genuinely felt remorseful. I think that feeling of remorse (I picture the Grinch's heart getting bigger and bigger) will be enough to give him the courage to do something he swore he doesn't do...make amends.

And I'm glad Sun's still holding a grudge, especially since she's pregnant. Sawyer might not have known about the baby at the time, but looking back, Sun knows he could have hurt her child and I bet she is (understandably) quite peeved. I think it would be unrealistic for her to have forgiven him already.

Yes I agree, if Sawyer had felt remorseful and apoligised to Sun it would be a different situation, but he didn't do that. Sun has the right to still be upset with him.

Sun is not going to let this go so easily.

And Sun shouldn't let it go easily, these two deceived all the losties, physically injured her, put her under extreme and constant stress for fear of being attacked again, ultimately put her baby in danger, and heavily influenced her self defense act of shooting Colleen. And on top of all that Sawyer gave her no indication that he was sorry for his actions. These are severe actions and if anyone was in Sun's position they wouldn't just be happy go lucky the day after finding out.

Though I do think Sawyer will try to do something to make amends and that Sun will be receptive. Oh and I do think Charlie's heartful confession does mean Sun and Charlie's realtionship will mend more quickly.

I can sort of understand from Suns perspective why she is more angry at Sawyer than Charlie. Not just because Charlie confessed and appologised while Sawyer didn't.

Sun is in love with Jin and seems to forgive him for being a hitman. However Sun totally resents her father - the criminal mastermind who gave Jin his missions. Maybe Sun is associating Sawyer with her "daddy issues" and thats why she is holding a grudge against him (?).

That's a good point. And really even though I'm sure Sawyer and Charlie didn't want her to come to real harm, it was still a terrible thing to do to her and I can understand why she's still unwilling to forgive the orchestrator of the stunt. For what? To get control of the guns? Yep, Sawyer is going to have to work harder to make amends to her and that is good for the story.

In fact, I have a theory about future events playing out over this. But I shall take it to the spoiler theory section. :biggrin:

Sometimes, the best thing an actor or actress can do is NOTHING. Even a blank stare can elicit numerous interpretations from the viewers. Sun was looking at Sawyer, but there was no expression on her face. That can often be seen as threatening since we are so used to seeing over-the-top smiles or frowns.

You saw what you wanted to see because the actress was clever enough to let you.

My "out-on-a-limb" prediction: We are not yet privy to something "shocking" between Sun and Sawyer.

You heard it here first.

I wonder if Sun may also be angry that Sawyer is now being liked by all of the Losties? If he were still outcast in his little corner, that's one thing, but for them all to be liking him when she knows what he did may be another.

But Sawyer and Jin have formed a friendship -- He may be forgiving of him -

Absolutely NO CHANCE. Well not before beating the breath out of him anyway.

There's nothing more terrifying in this world than an angry Korean man, well maybe an insane spinal surgeon :P

Seriously though with her pregnant, she had a chance of losing that child in that attack, and Jin would straight up murder Sawyer knowing that. That's why she's not going to tell him. The monster knows though, he is the all seeing eye...

I thought Charlie got off a little easy though, Sawyer masterminded the plan for power, Charlie executed it at the expense of another person.For his own selfish reasons. Guns and power can easily sway a man and take over him, but i think Charlie knew quite well what he was doing. He wasn't confused or carrying out old habits

Charlies motives were very selfish and he knew what he was doing, but I thought it was fair of him to say he wasn't himself. He had recently been beaten up and made an outcast when he had attempted to do something good (in Charlie's mind: save a baby from danger). I think he went to a very dark place emotionally (I'm not excusing him, just saying that is how it was...)

You cannot say the same about Sawyer - at the time he had just been healed by Jack and everyone in the camp was being really friendly with him, telling him they were glad he was okay. Sawyer had no reason to lash out at the camp. It was an attention-seeking power trip.

I'm sure Sun is not going to be having any beachside picnics with Charlie anytime soon. She has to be mad at him too. It's just that I think she is blaming Sawyer for the whole thing since he was the brains behind the whole operation.

I thought Charlie got off a little easy though, Sawyer masterminded the plan for power, Charlie executed it at the expense of another person.For his own selfish reasons. Guns and power can easily sway a man and take over him, but i think Charlie knew quite well what he was doing. He wasn't confused or carrying out old habits

But between the two, I think Sun can identify with what Charlie did a bit more since she herself poisoned Michael without meaning to when she was trying to poison her husband out of selfish motives. She wasn't confused either, she knew just what she was doing, she was trying to gain something she wanted very badly and it went horribly wrong. She of all people should forgive Charlie.

Yeah, what was up with that?? I guess she's really holding a grudge. There at the end, the poor guy was feeling pretty bad... I guess he will learn the hard way that sometimes it takes more than kissing babies and Boar-B-Q's to deal with the consequences of your actions.

I would hope she IS holding a grudge until Sawyer makes amends. The kidnapping thing was pretty traumatizing and he has yet to address it.

Don

I really hope that Sawyer will apologize to Sun. I think that would be such a landmark event for his character.

I think that Sun is not going to hold on to her anger. When Sawyer was trying to catcha fish, Sun and Jin were 20 feet away laughing at him. Sawyer looked over at them and Sun was smiling at his attempts. Then her smile dropped and her and Jin walked away. It was like she forgot for a second that she was angry with him. I can't see her hanging on to her anger. It might take her a little while, but I think that givena little bit of time she will forgive both her attacker and the man behind the plan.

After all, Sun is not an innocent either. She slept with another man, lied to her husband about learning English, lied to her husband about having only been with him. Oh, and then she tried to poison him, only to end up poisoning Michael.

Both Charlie and Sawyer should be held accountable for their actions towards Sun.

Sawyer has been confronted and dealt with.

Charlie has not.

Its as simple as that. And I think in all fairness, Charlie shouldnt come out of this looking like a poor little misguided school kid who was convinced by the big bad bully that this was the right thing to do. He acted on his own accord, and should be held responsible. He did after all get some heroine out of the whole thing.

But I doubt justice will truly be served. Sawyer will most likely get the punishment for both he and Charlie's actions instead.

Both Charlie and Sawyer should be held accountable for their actions towards Sun.

Sawyer has been confronted and dealt with.

Charlie has not.

Its as simple as that. And I think in all fairness, Charlie shouldnt come out of this looking like a poor little misguided school kid who was convinced by the big bad bully that this was the right thing to do. He acted on his own accord, and should be held responsible. He did after all get some heroine out of the whole thing.

But I doubt justice will truly be served. Sawyer will most likely get the punishment for both he and Charlie's actions instead.

:clapping: Thank you, this is a very unpopular opinion, glad someone else has it.

Both Charlie and Sawyer should be held accountable for their actions towards Sun.

Sawyer has been confronted and dealt with.

Charlie has not.

Its as simple as that. And I think in all fairness, Charlie shouldnt come out of this looking like a poor little misguided school kid who was convinced by the big bad bully that this was the right thing to do. He acted on his own accord, and should be held responsible. He did after all get some heroine out of the whole thing.

But I doubt justice will truly be served. Sawyer will most likely get the punishment for both he and Charlie's actions instead.

Charlied fessed up on his own accord.

when Sun told Sawyer that she knew it was his idea, he was like "Charlie you idiot".

He didnt take the Heroine, he told Sawyer thats not why he did it, the only thing that he got was a gun, that Saywer didnt know about

OK I think a lot of the posters in this thread took a long dip in the ocean and got swept away by the Lost Island rip tide: (Hope that meets politeness standards by not directly calling anyone all wet & carried away ;) ).
From my perspective Sun looked up saw Sawyer acting friendly and started to smile back but then got confused and looked away because Sawyer was not acting like "Sawyer". I think she was bewildered by the sudden change in his attitude, I also don't believe she is now holding a substantial grudge. She basically got rid of most of her anger when she confronted Sawyer and then hit him.

Note: One of Sun's lies is to with hold the truth about her abduction from the rest of the camp (as well as from Jin) thus protecting both James and Charlie.

...having a merry old time. LOL.

Ha, you said "Merry"!

Charlied fessed up on his own accord.

when Sun told Sawyer that she knew it was his idea, he was like "Charlie you idiot".

He didnt take the Heroine, he told Sawyer thats not why he did it, the only thing that he got was a gun, that Saywer didnt know about

to all of you that reported this post...please note the addition of punctuation and how it changes the way the post is read. this poster was NOT calling anyone an idiot but was referring to Sawyer's reaction towards Charlie.

thank you.

LOL if people are going to misjudge based on punctuation & spelling errors almost everyone here, including me, is in trouble.

LOL if people are going to misjudge based on punctuation & spelling errors almost everyone here, including me, is in trouble.

it was b/c of how it read. i am not the best with grammar or punctuation but i do try to make it not sound like i am insulting others. ;) i guess that is just one more example of how hard it is to interact with only words and no visual ques. :biggrin:

you? you are not in trouble. it is just one big dysfunctional, misspelling, typos, punctuation family in here. :biggrin:

Seriously I didn't see it that way -
I saw her look and said to my son - oh she feels sorry for him - she understands his pain -

I actually thought she looked at him and thought this is something he has been searching for his whole life to finally fit in - be part of the Group and be looked at as a Leader but at the same time she felt sadness for him -
and I thought he recognized that -This is exactly how I read the look as well.

Sun killed someone because of Sawyer's con.Sun doesn't know she killed Colleen.

I really hope that Sawyer will apologize to Sun. I think that would be such a landmark event for his character.I agree completely. All through the last segment of the show I was really hoping Sawyer would go over and genuinely apologise to her.

Hee-hee...that was cute!

Remember, immediately before Charlie confessed to her, she said to Hurley, "Saywer's not a murderer." Granted, he didn't murder anyone, but his plan could have seriously hurt her - she was unconsious for a period of time-- and probably more horrifying to her, caused her to miscarry. And there is he holding little Aaron.

He didn't even apologize for doing something egregiously wrong. It wasn't a little prank, it was criminal, he was an accessory to a crime, and he essentially tried to laugh it off rather than take responsibility for it, which is what I think she was hoping for. After all, she was one of the few who seemed to genuinely like Sawyer.

But as Zoriah pointed out, the important thing to note about this scene is Sawyer's reaction to her glare. He didn't shrug it off, he genuinely felt remorseful. I think that feeling of remorse (I picture the Grinch's heart getting bigger and bigger) will be enough to give him the courage to do something he swore he doesn't do...make amends. However, the important thing to note about the context of that scene is that Sawyer is only making an effort to look like a good guy because of Hurley's threat that he will be banished. He still hasn't shown that he is truly remorseful for masterminding harm to Sun, quite the contrary when he joked that he thought he had almost gotten away with it.

I can sort of understand from Suns perspective why she is more angry at Sawyer than Charlie. Not just because Charlie confessed and appologised while Sawyer didn't.

Sun is in love with Jin and seems to forgive him for being a hitman. However Sun totally resents her father - the criminal mastermind who gave Jin his missions. Maybe Sun is associating Sawyer with her "daddy issues" and thats why she is holding a grudge against him (?).
That's a fascinating point, Cap; I hadn't thought about that before. She of all people is someone who understands that the "man behind the curtain" is the one who carries at least half, if not more, of the blame. And it's not just daddy issues; it's also recognized in criminal law.

Ok I had to get some sleep last night - when I started going wait Sun killed Colleen and knew it??? I knew I was tired -

SO anyway, glad to see that I am not the only one here that thinks that Sun didn't look all that mad at Sawyer -

I cannot wait to see where this plays out -
As for spelling and grammar - I guess I better download that spell checker ;)

However, the important thing to note about the context of that scene is that Sawyer is only making an effort to look like a good guy because of Hurley's threat that he will be banished. He still hasn't shown that he is truly remorseful for masterminding harm to Sun, quite the contrary when he joked that he thought he had almost gotten away with it.

I disagree. In the beginning of Hurley's game, Sawyer was unquestionably trying to manipulate others into "liking" him, so he would not be "banished." By the end of the episode, however, he was genuinely being nice, not for personal gain, but because it apparently felt good. He looked happy, and that happiness seemed to evaporate when he glanced up and noticed Sun looking at him. That's good, though, because it means he is truly remorseful, at least inside, which is where it all starts. What he will do with that remorse remains to be seen. This show is about growth and change, right? It's unfortunate when characters who were originally set up to be unsavory change in good (albeit small) ways, but those changes are disregarded or glossed over.

Sun killed someone because of Sawyer's con. She really believed she was in danger from Colleen, or she probably wouldn't have shot her. So Sawyer is indirectly responsible for her death, and for Sun's feeling of guilt.

I'm glad you brought this up. It's a very interesting parallel because if Sawyer would've been killed by Pickett, Sun would be indirectly responsible for Sawyer's death.

Colleen's death is what really set Pickett on killing Sawyer. True, he didn't like him from the start. But I don't think he was planning on killing him, maybe just torturing him. He wanted revenge for Colleen's death so he pinned it on Sawyer.

I am confussed:
Sawyer doesn't know that it was Sun that shot Colleen - and Sun doesn't know that Colleen is dead RIGHT ??

I am confussed:
Sawyer doesn't know that it was Sun that shot Colleen - and Sun doesn't know that Colleen is dead RIGHT ??

Yes, Sawyer definitely doesn't know that Sun shot Colleen. I don't think Sun knows for sure that Colleen is dead, but she should at least suspect it.

Sun seems to show no remorse over what happened with Colleen - to our knowledge she hasn't even told anyone about it -
this further convinces me that she was looking at him with a bit of pity and understanding - she too has been put into a situation that she would otherwise have hopped would either turn out differently or never happen to begin with -
I think she understands Sawyer a little better now

Sun seems to show no remorse over what happened with Colleen - to our knowledge she hasn't even told anyone about it -
this further convinces me that she was looking at him with a bit of pity and understanding - she too has been put into a situation that she would otherwise have hopped would either turn out differently or never happen to begin with -
I think she understands Sawyer a little better now

Just like Hurley seemed to show no sadness over Libby's death or anger towards Michael. I think this is a product of the writer deciding not to deal with Sun or Hurley's storylines and deciding to focus on other plot points.

Just like Hurley seemed to show no sadness over Libby's death or anger towards Michael. I think this is a product of the writer deciding not to deal with Sun or Hurley's storylines and deciding to focus on other plot points.


If I'm Sun, I'm not going to feel any remorse for blowing away someone who's a direct threat to my survival.

Hurley's reaction to Michael was sufficient for me. That shot where he look up at him as he pieces it all together, and asks him if he killed her, gets me right here.. every time. Besides, he didn't get a whole lot of time to grieve after being kidnapped, then forced to watch the object of his rage disappear on a boat. In my life, when I've been faced with no choice but to move on, I move on.

I hope it isn't that they just haven't gotten back to that story line - I would rather think with Sun they just haven't gotten there yet - but it will help her to forgive Sawyer and could even bring her to him for advice -

As for Hurley - I like the way he ended it with Michael seems to me that Hurley gets that in life bad things happen and he just has to keep going on - I think too he understands better since Danielle admitted to him that the numbers were cursed!

If I'm Sun, I'm not going to feel any remorse for blowing away someone who's a direct threat to my survival.

Hurley's reaction to Michael was sufficient for me. That shot where he look up at him as he pieces it all together, and asks him if he killed her, gets me right here.. every time. Besides, he didn't get a whole lot of time to grieve after being kidnapped, then forced to watch the object of his rage disappear on a boat. In my life, when I've been faced with no choice but to move on, I move on.

Except that TPTB said they were rushed for the last episode and regretted how they handled Hurley's reaction to Michael. Also, until Hurley's FB epi, they didn't really give Hurley the screentime to show how he was feeling or what he was thinking, much like they haven't addressed Sun's reaction to the shooting.

I hope it isn't that they just haven't gotten back to that story line - I would rather think with Sun they just haven't gotten there yet - but it will help her to forgive Sawyer and could even bring her to him for advice -

Hard to say since we don't really know what's going on in Sun's head about the shooting because she hasn't been given the screentime to show us. We didn't see what happened when Sayid, Jin and Sun trekked back to the beach. How was Sun coping with things? And when they returned to the beach, Sun was no where to be seen for many episodes. and when she does show up, she's not really the main focus of the scene, so we don't know what's going through her head.

Except that TPTB said they were rushed for the last episode and regretted how they handled Hurley's reaction to Michael. Also, until Hurley's FB epi, they didn't really give Hurley the screentime to show how he was feeling or what he was thinking, much like they haven't addressed Sun's reaction to the shooting.


True, but, it was sufficient for me. It's not keeping me up nights.

True, but, it was sufficient for me. It's not keeping me up nights.

Oh yeah for sure, it's personal preference :) I was using the Hurley example to show that we just didn't know for quite a while what these two characters were thinking and we still don't really know how sun is feeling :)

Oh yeah for sure, it's personal preference :) I was using the Hurley example to show that we just didn't know for quite a while what these two characters were thinking and we still don't really know how sun is feeling :)

Alright, I'll buy that, but in the event the feelings of these characters never come up, we'll just have to satisfy ourselves by empathizing. And if not, at least in my case, I'll still get a good night's sleep, every single night.

Funny story. A couple weeks ago a friend of mine got on my case that I never ask how he's doing or how he's feeling. I was like, what? After a very well deserved questioning of his manhood, I offered, "Dude, you're either at work, at school, or playing break-up/make-up with your girlfriend. I don't have to ask you how you're feeling, cause I know your life sucks."

Hard to say since we don't really know what's going on in Sun's head about the shooting because she hasn't been given the screentime to show us. We didn't see what happened when Sayid, Jin and Sun trekked back to the beach. How was Sun coping with things? And when they returned to the beach, Sun was no where to be seen for many episodes. and when she does show up, she's not really the main focus of the scene, so we don't know what's going through her head.

I hope we eventually get to see how she feels about the shooting. They will probably wait until the next Sun/Jin flashback episode, I'm guessing. Maybe in that episode, they will deal with her feelings about the shooting, and also reconcile with Sawyer when they both realize their connection with Colleen.

Since it has probably only been a few days since the last episode, I suppose it's a good thing she hasn't forgiven Sawyer quite yet.

Alright, I'll buy that, but in the event the feelings of these characters never come up, we'll just have to satisfy ourselves by empathizing. And if not, at least in my case, I'll still get a good night's sleep, every single night.

Funny story. A couple weeks ago a friend of mine got on my case that I never ask how he's doing or how he's feeling. I was like, what? After a very well deserved questioning of his manhood, I offered, "Dude, you're either at work, at school, or playing break-up/make-up with your girlfriend. I don't have to ask you how you're feeling, cause I know your life sucks."

Sounds to me like you have a case of Huleryitis - LOL

I rewatched last night and again I think Sun was not looking at him with nails in her eyes - but I did notice that Hurley had a sort of mischivious look about him -
Now I wonder what he is up to?

Just like Hurley seemed to show no sadness over Libby's death or anger towards Michael. I think this is a product of the writer deciding not to deal with Sun or Hurley's storylines and deciding to focus on other plot points.

I agree that the way the writers dealt with Hurley's reaction to Michael was poor. However, I think that they addressed Libby at the start of TTID. The opening scene is him talking to Libby at his grave. The writers showed the viewers that he is grieving over her death, it may not be front and center, but they did include that to let us know that he is dealing with it off camera.

They may also show us more if Michael returns to the beach - Hurley may then be like DUDE - you are a dead man let me bury you next to NP!

I'm loving the Sawyer/Sun story. There is karma between them. Sawyer was responsible for Sun being terrified and injured and in turn, it was Sun killing Colleen that made Pickett come damn near to killing him on Alcatraz.. "What goes around, comes around."

I think Sun has forgiven Charlie for his part in the "kidnapping attempt". For one thing, Charlie didn't have to tell her anything about it, but he confessed for a completely unselfish reason, i .e. to soothe her fears that the Others had come back to the camp and killed Picki. He was genuinely sorry and I believe she could see that.

Sawyer, OTOH, is a different story altogether. Sun has every right to continue to be reproachful and cold toward him because he hasn't even tried to apologize. It was clear at the end of this last episode that he's feeling badly about it now. I think he owes her a very heartfelt and humble apology, at the very least. They've taken great pains to separate his recent character growth from Kate. If they wait till after Kate gets back to have Sawyer apologize to Sun, some people will accuse him of only that hoping Sun won't tell Kate. I think his new-found empathy toward his companions and the remorse he feels about hurting Sun are genuine, so I do think he'll try to make amends with her because he knows it's owed, and I think he'll do that before Kate et al get back to the beach.

I've been loving Sawyer's recent character growth. Of course, I'm crossing my fingers and toes that they aren't setting him up for some terrible fall down the line. :eek2:

Lemme write a list of reasons why Saywer is a scumbag and deserves every bit of punishment he gets. (Sun staring at him a bit is the least of his worries imo)

+ Conned a woman out of hundreds of thousands of dollars
+ Conned a guy out of millions of dollars (in jail)
+ Had Sun mock-kidnapped by Charlie
+ Stole a bunch of stuff from the fuselage and refused to share it
+ Refused to even share medicine
+ Threatened to kill Jack whilst Jack was trying to save him from the knife wound in Season 1
+ Shot that guy for revenge, without confirming his real identity first
+ Is mean to everyone pretty much all the time for no reason
+ Was racist to Sayid in Season 1, blaming him for the plane crash
+ Killed a tree frog for no reason
+ Rarely helps people when they ask him for help, instead he tries to get something out of it
+ Kate finds the case in the water, Sawyer steals it from her and is a total douchebag about it (Kate is an idiot too, but it was a combined effort at this point)
+ Steals all the guns and tries to take over
+ .....
+ .....

Yeah he got a whupping by Ben, oh baby. That was good. But Sun doesn't know what happened to him specifically, and just beacuse he went through whatever at the hands of the others, it doesn't change what he's done. He doesn't deserve to be forgiven in my opinion, he needs to make a permanent change in his behaviour to get respect, needs to be a different person.

Sounds to me like you have a case of Huleryitis - LOL

This is totally how we talk in the OC, dude. Nooch. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ben had told Sawyer when they were up on the hill, that a way to get a con man's respect was to out con him. This is what Hurley had done to Sawyer. Hurley is growing in leaps and bounds ! He knew that after Sawyer had came back, that Sawyer was somewhat changed, for the better. He wasn't so withdrawn from the group of Losties. He was actually starting to have fun with them, getting drunk with Jin, helping Jin with english, riding around in the van, and even playing ping pong. Although he wasn't completely changed, still had his wise cracks and snappy nicknames . Hurley felt he needed to help Sawyer in his good progress, so he makes up the story that the Losties were going to have a vote to banish him from the camp. This was brilliant ! Sawyer actually had to interact with people that he normally wouldn't. The scene with Claire and Aaron was priceless ! He actually had a genuine smile when he was holding the baby. It made him feel good. He also was actually having a fun time roasting and marinating the hog. He felt like he was really part of the group, that he wasn't an outsider, that he wasn't just some convict but an important part of the Losties "society". Although Sun's reactions to Sawyer did damper his feel good moment, I think that he now knows that he has to make some kind of ammends with her. I think this is going to be also an important step in his growth as a person.

he needs to make a permanent change in his behaviour to get respect, needs to be a different person.

I think that's what TPTB are ultimately trying to accomplish with this character. Gotta take it slow though; he's been doing this crap for some 28 years, I don't think a profound change in his mindset is going to happen overnight and if it did, it would be ludicrously unbelievable, and the audience (at least speaking for myself) would be rolling their eyes.

I think that's what TPTB are ultimately trying to accomplish with this character. Gotta take it slow though; he's been doing this crap for some 28 years, I don't think a profound change in his mindset is going to happen overnight and if it did, it would be ludicrously unbelievable, and the audience (at least speaking for myself) would be rolling their eyes.

Yeah totally. But I think that in the mean time, other characters shouldn't just give him an easy ride. It makes sense to me that Sun at least is still angry with him.

I totally agree with you. Growth=pain. He shouldn't be able to just be forgiven for all he's done.

I agree that the way the writers dealt with Hurley's reaction to Michael was poor. However, I think that they addressed Libby at the start of TTID. The opening scene is him talking to Libby at his grave. The writers showed the viewers that he is grieving over her death, it may not be front and center, but they did include that to let us know that he is dealing with it off camera.

exactly, they addressed it in his next FB episode, 11 episodes into the season, until that point, we were never really shown how he was feeling. I think we might have to wait until Sun's next FB to address the shooting, and until then we will be left in the dark and don't really know how she's feeling.

Ben had told Sawyer when they were up on the hill, that a way to get a con man's respect was to out con him. This is what Hurley had done to Sawyer. Hurley is growing in leaps and bounds !

This is true, Hurley has grown, I wonder what he would do now if he found out about Sawyer's plot on Sun.

I really liked watching Sawyer enjoy trying to be good to others. And even though I think Jack is a born leader and should return as such, I wondered why the writers aren't letting Sawyer stay as "temporary leader" a little while longer. It would make him grow as a person a lot more and would be fun to watch him try and become better than he's been. Oh well. I guess they don't want him turning good guy just so fast. ;)

This is true, Hurley has grown, I wonder what he would do now if he found out about Sawyer's plot on Sun. If he was also aware that Sun knew about the plot I don't think he would do a thing. If he did not know that Sun was aware of who was behind that event he might seek to have Sawyer confess to her. Actions beyond that would just roil up the brew and make a mess in camp. I think Hurley would be sensitive to that.

For what's it's worth, I thought that Sun's glare was just that. To me, she was giving Sawyer the evil eye,...lol. I got the distinct impression that she saw through him, and did not like it.

For what's it's worth, I thought that Sun's glare was just that. To me, she was giving Sawyer the evil eye,...lol. I got the distinct impression that she saw through him, and did not like it.
I think you're right. She was obviously watching Sawyer, but having learned her lesson the hard way, I don't think she trusts his motives for being so suddenly helpful and seemingly empathetic. She'll have to satisfied as to his sincerity before she's willing to forgive him, even if he does apologize.

I could write a list myself that rebuts some of those 'points', or a counter one with a list of Sawyer's good deeds, but ultimately that's not what this thread is for. I do actually agree that Sawyer needs to choose to actively work at making amends and show some real character growth. And it's pretty clear to me that this is one story arc the writers are addressing extremely well. The fact that he's doing this while Kate's away only reinforces my belief that the writers know what they are doing. They are changing him slowly but surely. In a way that still keeps the essence of what makes Sawyer entertaining to watch, I would hate for him to lose his snarky edge. He suits being the anti-hero, struggling to redeem himself. :biggrin:

Oh, well Sun is queen of the ambiguously emotional stare. Remember at the end of The Whole Truth when she hugs Jin with that almost about to cry for joy and despair look? Or at the end of like 5 different episodes when Sun has this unreadable look on her face....is she sad or introspective? Is she happy or feigning delight? Is she hopeful or regretful? Is she North Korean or South Korean? I can't tell.

Is she North Korean or South Korean? I can't tell.
Nice reference to Shiri, gradyboy.
True though, Sun's the master of facial expressions. The very opposite of Jin, eh? lol.

Nice reference to Shiri, gradyboy.
True though, Sun's the master of facial expressions. The very opposite of Jin, eh? lol.
Off topic: I have been keeping an eye open for a copy of Shiri at the local stores. How would those who have seen it rate it? Good, Bad or indifferen't?

Anyhows back on topic - I feel those who saw the look as a glare and Sun as maintaining a harsh view of everything Sawyer does are underestimating the character of Sun and making her seem more petty than she is.

Anyhows back on topic - I feel those who saw the look as a glare and Sun as maintaining a harsh view of everything Sawyer does are underestimating the character of Sun and making her seem more petty than she is.


I think that Sun is angered and hurt that Sawyer was behind the kidnapping plot. When Sawyer was fishing and had first caught the fish, he was very proud of himself and looked over to Sun and Jin. Sun had smiled back at him but then it was if she realized that she was still upset and that is when she gave him the "glare". I think this is very telling because I think that deep down Sun likes Sawyer but is still harboring the pain of betrayal that Sawyer inflicted on her. I would hope that this will all become resolved because deep down Sawyer is not a bad person and I don't think that Sun is that judgmental because of some of her past actions. I think this story line is just another step to character growth for the both of them.

Off topic: I have been keeping an eye open for a copy of Shiri at the local stores. How would those who have seen it rate it? Good, Bad or indifferen't?

Anyhows back on topic - I feel those who saw the look as a glare and Sun as maintaining a harsh view of everything Sawyer does are underestimating the character of Sun and making her seem more petty than she is.

I don't feel she's being petty, just very cautious, and with good reason. In the Picki episode, Sun was the one who jumped to Sawyer's defence and say it couldn't have been him - "He's not a murderer and he went all the way across the island to find Walt." Finding out he was behind the fake kidnapping, and capable of doing something genuinely malicious, made her revise her opinion of him.

So even though she sees him being nice to everybody, I can see why Sun might be wondering what his angle is. Remember that when she regained consciousness in the tent after the kidnapping, Sawyer was there looking all concerned. Now she sees him being nice to everybody and I think she's wondering if he's faking it, if he has an angle. There's an expression, "Once bitten, twice shy." She doesn't want him to get away with hurting anybody a second time, so she's watching him like a hawk and she's suspicious of his motives for being nice to people. He LOOKS sincere, but I think it just might take her a little while to believe that.

Off topic: I have been keeping an eye open for a copy of Shiri at the local stores. How would those who have seen it rate it? Good, Bad or indifferen't?

Anyhows back on topic - I feel those who saw the look as a glare and Sun as maintaining a harsh view of everything Sawyer does are underestimating the character of Sun and making her seem more petty than she is.

I personally thought it was a good, solid movie that helped to illuminate the tension created by the North/South division, but other than that, it was ok. It was, however, one of the most successful/popular films in Korea at the time it was released.

Back to topic: Sawyer seemed to have really wanted Sun and Jin's support and was really disappointed that Sun was still mad at him. I would love to see Sawyer sincerely try to make amends because it would be the right thing to do.

I don't feel she's being petty, just very cautious, and with good reason. In the Picki episode, Sun was the one who jumped to Sawyer's defence and say it couldn't have been him - "He's not a murderer and he went all the way across the island to find Walt." Finding out he was behind the fake kidnapping, and capable of doing something genuinely malicious, made her revise her opinion of him.

So even though she sees him being nice to everybody, I can see why Sun might be wondering what his angle is. Remember that when she regained consciousness in the tent after the kidnapping, Sawyer was there looking all concerned. Now she sees him being nice to everybody and I think she's wondering if he's faking it, if he has an angle. There's an expression, "Once bitten, twice shy." She doesn't want him to get away with hurting anybody a second time, so she's watching him like a hawk and she's suspicious of his motives for being nice to people. He LOOKS sincere, but I think it just might take her a little while to believe that.LOL OK I hold and have posted a similar view. I see that as confused by Sawyer not acting like the Sawyer she thought she knew, not as glaring at Sawyer. That is why I don't feel she is being petty and holding a hard line grudge complete with glares. It is the view of her as glaring at him that I feel misrepresents her character. She has a right to feel hurt, bewildered and upset but I think she quickly rose above the glare stage and is open to seeing Sawyer as able to change and make amends..

LOL OK I hold and have posted a similar view. I see that as confused by Sawyer not acting like the Sawyer she thought she knew, not as glaring at Sawyer. That is why I don't feel she is being petty and holding a hard line grudge complete with glares. It is the view of her as glaring at him that I feel misrepresents her character. She has a right to feel hurt, bewildered and upset but I think she quickly rose above the glare stage and is open to seeing Sawyer as able to change and make amends..

You make a good point. I've seen the word "glare" used several times. To clarify my impression, I don't think she was so much glaring as just refusing to smile and remaining sort of cold and aloof toward him. Is that better? :biggrin:

The question I have been asking myself is - When Jack returns Jin will most likely support Sawyer as the new leader -
What will Sun do? If she indeed did have a glare at Sawyer how will she explain to Jin that she doesn't want to support Sawyer?

Will Sun tell Jack what happened - how will Jack take the news -

I don't see her telling him - I think she is moving past it and will be able to support Sawyer in his new role.................

You make a good point. I've seen the word "glare" used several times. To clarify my impression, I don't think she was so much glaring as just refusing to smile and remaining sort of cold and aloof toward him. Is that better? :biggrin:Much - doesn't quite match me but it is a fair point of view anyway :biggrin: I just never perceived her look as a glare & started hopping up and down. :redface:

The question I have been asking myself is - When Jack returns Jin will most likely support Sawyer as the new leader -
What will Sun do? If she indeed did have a glare at Sawyer how will she explain to Jin that she doesn't want to support Sawyer?

Will Sun tell Jack what happened - how will Jack take the news -

I don't see her telling him - I think she is moving past it and will be able to support Sawyer in his new role.................That is assuming Sawyer will want to be leader, that Jack won't be welcomed back as the returning leader by most of the group and that Jin sees a need for a change of leadership. Rather iffy set of assumptions in my view. But I have been shot down more than once trying to predict things.

I thought Sun's glare toward Sawyer was cold. I think she will use the info to blackmail Sawyer sometime in the future.

Remember, this is the Sun who let the maid get fired for destroying the figurine in her house. She may look sweetness and light, but she can be self-serving and selfish and Sun has plenty of secrets.

I personally hope their is no Sun/Sawyer feud. Seeing Sawyer grovel gets boring.

F

Remember, this is the Sun who let the maid get fired for destroying the figurine in her house.

F

Yes we should all be held liable for things we did when we were 5 years old and didn't necessarily know better. Children don't grow, change or mature at all.

Yes we should all be held liable for things we did when we were 5 years old and didn't necessarily know better. Children don't grow, change or mature at all.

They have a precious little time in each episode to convey important events, therefore I think the scene where little Sun lied about the maid was very telling and was used to show us that she has always had a manipulative, lying part of her. And, yes, a 5 year old should know better.

Why the sarcasm? Fuyuko had a good point. It's quite possible Sun will use this info against Sawyer in the future.

I still think it looked like an icy look, rather than one of pity, or curiosity.

That is assuming Sawyer will want to be leader, that Jack won't be welcomed back as the returning leader by most of the group and that Jin sees a need for a change of leadership. Rather iffy set of assumptions in my view. But I have been shot down more than once trying to predict things.

I don't think Sawyer will have enough time to become leader if he wanted to, and I have a feeling he doesn't want to/isn't ready yet, anyway. But Hurley put a seed in his head, and in the future, if he disagrees with Jack, he may try to challenge Jack's role as leader.

Actually, I tend to agree with Penyours about little kids not knowing any better. How can a five year old understand the implications of being fired when she or her parents have never had to worry about money? She doesn't know anything about livelihoods; all she cared about was avoiding her father's wrath.

As for Sun having a manipulative side, everyone has to a certain extent. Yes, she IS sweet, considerate, caring, but she is also fallible, weak, and prone to misjudgments. Personally, I think she deserves some sort of amends from Sawyer. He doesn't necessarily have to grovel, but he should be a man about it and address it.

Sun and Jin are really amiable and adorable Losties but when they team up and become a couple then all joy is gone.They woulve been really uncomfortable to hang out with and have to deal with all the bad temper and unsolved matters between them.Im guessing shes soon to tell Jin about her being attecked by Charlie under Sawyers command,and itll prolly be to distract Jin from something else,like her weird pregnancy and such.
Jin is cool!:cool:

Actually, I tend to agree with Penyours about little kids not knowing any better. How can a five year old understand the implications of being fired when she or her parents have never had to worry about money? She doesn't know anything about livelihoods; all she cared about was avoiding her father's wrath.

Hmm, I don't know. I agree with what you're saying about not understanding the implications of the staff being fired. But I am sure she has witnessed her father's wrath directed at staff before and know the consequences. I don't think she was an evil little damien child, but I think she knew the consequences would not be good for that woman. The age of reason begins at about age 3 1/2 and I think we've all seen Sun is a person of above average intelligence.

I like Sun. She's compassionate, insightful, intelligent, and generous. But I definitely think she has a "Don't f*ck with me" side to her we haven't seen.

Hmm, I don't know. I agree with what you're saying about not understanding the implications of the staff being fired. But I am sure she has witnessed her father's wrath directed at staff before and know the consequences. I don't think she was an evil little damien child, but I think she knew the consequences would not be good for that woman. The age of reason begins at about age 3 1/2 and I think we've all seen Sun is a person of above average intelligence.

I like Sun. She's compassionate, insightful, intelligent, and generous. But I definitely think she has a "Don't f*ck with me" side to her we haven't seen.

Obviously, she knew something "bad" would happen to the woman in a childlike way, but she may not have understood to what extent until later on. But at the exact moment when she was questioned by her dad, she may have just wanted to avoid being punished.

As for her, "Don't mess with me" attitude, yes, she seems to possess it. It's what's preserved her during that confrontation with the Others.

Obviously, she knew something "bad" would happen to the woman in a childlike way, but she may not have understood to what extent until later on. But at the exact moment when she was questioned by her dad, she may have just wanted to avoid being punished.

Ok, ok, you guys are starting to break me down on this. But let me just ask one more thing: they'd already established in prior episodes that her dad was an unforgiving bastard, we know that Sun more likely than not was afraid of her dad to some extent, so what really was the purpose of that scene? Why did she immediately implicate the maid, rather than just saying "I don't know" in response to his question "Then who did? (break the ballerina)" The house must have been full of various staff, surely it was possible for her to play dumb.

Ok, ok, you guys are starting to break me down on this. But let me just ask one more thing: they'd already established in prior episodes that her dad was an unforgiving model student, we know that Sun more likely than not was afraid of her dad to some extent, so what really was the purpose of that scene? Why did she immediately implicate the maid, rather than just saying "I don't know" in response to his question "Then who did? (break the ballerina)" The house must have been full of various staff, surely it was possible for her to play dumb.

Her dad was an unforgiving model student? Now I'm really confused!:biggrin:

they'd already established in prior episodes that her dad was an unforgiving model student, we know that Sun more likely than not was afraid of her dad to some extent, so what really was the purpose of that scene? Why did she immediately implicate the maid, rather than just saying "I don't know" in response to his question "Then who did? (break the ballerina)" The house must have been full of various staff, surely it was possible for her to play dumb.

I think that scene helped establish the daughter father dynamic between Sun and Mr Paik. How at an early age Sun was already experiencing her father's control and wrath and how she feared it so much that she would try to deflect blame. Also, it showed how harsh Mr Paik was to those around him, since he suggested firing his maid. This becomes important later in the episode with the whole Mr Paik walking in on Sun and Jae Lee and when Jin comes home and mentions he talked to Mr Paik, and Sun is able to infer the consequences. This dynamic was established to some extent in previous episodes, but I think the writers included it to emphasis that it's somethign Sun has experienced her whole life and also to help make the episode more self-contained, so viewers could watch this single episode and understand the relationship between sun and her father and how severe her father's action can be.

Also the scene supports Sun desires to run away, since she does it to ultimately to escape her father's control. But as we see in the end she doesn't choose this path, she chooses Jin, which is a strong growth point for Sun. I think the next growth point will be when she tells Jin about the affair and her desire to leave. And I do think she feels guilty about this and that she will tell Jin, it's just a matter of waiting for the time when Jin is ready to hear her out and importantly listens to why she did what she did.

What's really bizarre is that the only times we saw Sun (as an adult) and her dad together in a scene was when he caught her naked in Jae Lee's condo and then at Jae Lee's funeral. As far as screen time goes, Mr. Paik was always interacting with Jin and not Sun. I'd like to see more scenes where Sun interacts with her nefarious dad, until we do, I think the verdicts still out in regards to who controls who.

I think that scene helped establish the daughter father dynamic between Sun and Mr Paik. How at an early age Sun was already experiencing her father's control and wrath and how she feared it so much that she would try to deflect blame. Also, it showed how harsh Mr Paik was to those around him, since he suggested firing his maid. This becomes important later in the episode with the whole Mr Paik walking in on Sun and Jae Lee and when Jin comes home and mentions he talked to Mr Paik, and Sun is able to infer the consequences. This dynamic was established to some extent in previous episodes, but I think the writers included it to emphasis that it's somethign Sun has experienced her whole life and also to help make the episode more self-contained, so viewers could watch this single episode and understand the relationship between sun and her father and how severe her father's action can be.

Also the scene supports Sun desires to run away, since she does it to ultimately to escape her father's control. But as we see in the end she doesn't choose this path, she chooses Jin, which is a strong growth point for Sun. I think the next growth point will be when she tells Jin about the affair and her desire to leave. And I do think she feels guilty about this and that she will tell Jin, it's just a matter of waiting for the time when Jin is ready to hear her out and importantly listens to why she did what she did.

Thanks for that explanation. It was excellent, btw, and I understand more now why they included that scene. I agree with you completely.

this thread just shows how great yunjin is. a stare! not even a dialogue in this ep! and yet one of the most talked about threads this ep. way to go sun! keep those eyes ablaze!

After all, Sun is not an innocent either. She slept with another man, lied to her husband about learning English, lied to her husband about having only been with him. Oh, and then she tried to poison him, only to end up poisoning Michael.


Exactly! Sun is in no position to throw stones. I think that more will come of this tension between them that the writers want us to be aware of at the moment. Maybe Sawyer will be the one to save Sun from Jin's rage once he realizes that he may not be the father of her baby.

How many people on the island are in a position to throw stones, just about everyone has their good and bad sides both on the show and in real life. And Sun fortunately has a lot of extremely good things she has done on the island, like saving Shannon's life, trying to save Boone's life, making a garden that feeds everyone, risking her own life while joining Sayid and Jin on their mission.

Imagine someone physically attacked you, made you feel like you could be attacked again at any moment, lied to all your friends about it, did it for selfish reason and didn't seem the least bit sorry. Now you just found out about it, would you still be upset a day later? Critising Sun at this point is basically saying it's okay to attack someone and deceive all your friends.

Maybe Sawyer will be the one to save Sun from Jin's rage once he realizes that he may not be the father of her baby.

Now that would be original. :rolleyes:
White man comes to the rescue of an Asian woman in distress. Physically abused by her likewise Asian husband no less. Of course I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly what TPTB give us.

How about Sun putting aside her personal animosity, and coming to the rescue of Sawyer instead? Now that would surpsise me.

How about Sun putting aside her personal animosity, and coming to the rescue of Sawyer instead? Now that would surprise me.
But hasn't that already happened to a degree?

Sun put aside her personal animosity and did not tell Jin what Sawyer did because in her opinion Jin might try to kill Sawyer if he knew. Also Sun could have told the rest of the Lostee group re both Sawyer and Charlie causing them a great deal of grief. So by keeping quiet she put aside her personal animosity and in the process saved both Sawyer and Charlie from censure or worse. Sun saved Shannon, attempted to help save Boone and participated in an effort to save Jack, Kate & Hurley. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see her save Sawyer (yet again).

Re the other scenerio of James saving her from Jin - I agree it would be bummer of a story line and in poor taste to see TPTB go that route.

How many people on the island are in a position to throw stones, just about everyone has their good and bad sides both on the show and in real life. And Sun fortunately has a lot of extremely good things she has done on the island, like saving Shannon's life, trying to save Boone's life, making a garden that feeds everyone, risking her own life while joining Sayid and Jin on their mission.

Imagine someone physically attacked you, made you feel like you could be attacked again at any moment, lied to all your friends about it, did it for selfish reason and didn't seem the least bit sorry. Now you just found out about it, would you still be upset a day later? Critising Sun at this point is basically saying it's okay to attack someone and deceive all your friends.

I don't think anyone here is saying that Sun deserved it or that she is a bad person. What happened to her was terrible. However, Sun is an adulterer, a murderer, and a liar. I think that most of the bad she has done has been sort of justified (Coleen's death certainly was justified). Still, it is slightly hypocritical of her to hold a grudge against Sawyer and Charlie.

That begin said, I don't think that Sun will be angry for too long. Jin and Sawyer have a decent friendship and Sun recognizes that. She will let it go with a little bit of time and perspective. Like you said, it has one been a day or two since she found out about what happened. That has to be hard news to take, learning that two of your friends did that to you. Just give her one or two more episodes and we will all forget her glares.

Still, it is slightly hypocritical of her to hold a grudge against Sawyer and Charlie.



What sort of argument is that? There's absolutely no logic in that.

What sort of argument is that? There's absolutely no logic in that. Because she basically did the same thing they did to Michael. I don't agree with that argument (If I were Sun, I would still hold a grudge, regardless of my previous actions) but yes, there is logic in that argument.

However, Sun is an adulterer, a murderer, and a liar.


wowowwoww!!!!come on molly!youre being harsh.its no use attributing all these adjectives to people!people are not ''murderers'' ''liars'' and ''thiefs''.Saying that someone lies because he is a liar is like trying to explain the human need of sleep by saying that ''i sleep because im sleepy ''(duh)this is not a way to explain peoples actions and of course tags never helped anyone!
im saying that with all due respect of course,dont mean to be cruel with you:thumb_up:

We don't know for sure exactly WHO the father of the baby is - it could be Jin's - or someone on the island - OR they guy that jumped - was pushed off the building - I am so bad with names -
So thinking of this - the stare Sun was giving Sawyer could have been one of - I hope you can HELP me - keep Jin for leaving me again!

However, Sun is an adulterer, a murderer, and a liar. I think that most of the bad she has done has been sort of justified (Coleen's death certainly was justified). Still, it is slightly hypocritical of her to hold a grudge against Sawyer and Charlie. What murder? A group of armed invaders were stealing the boat she was sleeping on. She woke up to find one of them in her room. That is self defense and justified in most areas of the world. She committed adultery so she cannot hold a grudge about being abducted by someone she has met since that event? Um lost me there. One misdeed and you are forever banned from holding anyone accountable for their actions that harm you? Same with Liar's aren't allowed to hold a grudge when they are wronged. So Sawyer is wrong to hold a grudge against the Others for what happened to him, ditto Kate? ditto Sayid? ditto Charlie? Ditto Ditto Ditto

Not being a perfect angel does not make you hypocritical if you hold a grudge against friends who have abused your trust. Abusing their trust before they abuse yours to a similar extent and then getting upset with them would be a better example of hypocrisy. I didn't see that happen with the abduction of Sun by Charlie and Sawyer. That said, I think Sun's behavior indicates she is not holding a major grudge and I still can't see a glare in her look towards Sawyer. Hmm can't find a Mister Magoo Smilie to cap off that last statement So just imagine one for me! Thanks.;)

But hasn't that already happened to a degree?

Sun put aside her personal animosity and did not tell Jin what Sawyer did because in her opinion Jin might try to kill Sawyer if he knew. Also Sun could have told the rest of the Lostee group re both Sawyer and Charlie causing them a great deal of grief. So by keeping quiet she put aside her personal animosity and in the process saved both Sawyer and Charlie from censure or worse. Sun saved Shannon, attempted to help save Boone and participated in an effort to save Jack, Kate & Hurley. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see her save Sawyer (yet again).

Re the other scenerio of James saving her from Jin - I agree it would be bummer of a story line and in poor taste to see TPTB go that route.

Oh yes this is very true, Sun is actually protecting Sawyer right now and doing him a big favour by not telling the other Losties. Kudos to Sun for being compassionate! Actually I wonder if Sawyer went along with Hurley's con partly because he thought Sun told the other Losties about what he did and that was the impetus for the vote. At the end, when Sawyer realised it was a con, he also realised that Sun did in fact protect him and hasn't told anyone.

Because she basically did the same thing they did to Michael. I don't agree with that argument (If I were Sun, I would still hold a grudge, regardless of my previous actions) but yes, there is logic in that argument.

I think superficially they look like similar incidents, however Sun's poisoning incident was an act of love, she was trying to protect Jin, because she didn't want him to go on a dangerous raft expedition. She had to resort to such drastic measures because Jin wouldn't listen to her and was set in his decision. Sawyer on the other hand, had much more selfish intentions in securing the guns.

Because she basically did the same thing they did to Michael. I don't agree with that argument (If I were Sun, I would still hold a grudge, regardless of my previous actions) but yes, there is logic in that argument.

I really don't see it. What happened with Michael has nothing to do with what happened to her as a result of Charlie and Sawyer. They are completely different and distinct incidents. To bring into the argument the issue of "hypocrisy" has no bearing here. It's illogical and incongruous.

I think superficially they look like similar incidents, however Sun's poisoning incident was an act of love, she was trying to protect Jin, because she didn't want him to go on a dangerous raft expedition. She had to resort to such drastic measures because Jin wouldn't listen to her and was set in his decision. Sawyer on the other hand, had much more selfish intentions in securing the guns. Although I agree that Sun motivations were more 'sympathetic' the results of the poisoning could have been catastrophic, more so than Sawyer's plan. You don't go poisoning people on a deserted island without any medical facilities. It's not an exact science and very dangerous. Also, Sun was lucky it was Michael and not Walt. There was enough poison to make a grown man very sick, I cannot imagine what it would have done to 10-year-old Walt. Michael wouldn't have cared that Sun poisoning would have been an act of love if Walt had been the victim. Both acts were despicable and selfish. I'm not giving Sun a free pass because she did it for love. It was selfish. (Sun is my favorite female character, btw. I'm not just giving her a free pass for the poisoning, especially since she could have easily hurt a 10-year old kid)

I really don't see it. What happened with Michael has nothing to do with what happened to her as a result of Charlie and Sawyer. They are completely different and distinct incidents. To bring into the argument the issue of "hypocrisy" has no bearing here. It's illogical and incongruous. Both incidents are very similar, IMHO. Sun and Sawyer hurt a fellow lostie to gain something, for very selfish reasons.

Ok, so Sun's plans to keep Jin by her side didn't work out exactly as planned. Does this strip her of the right to feel hurt and anger towards Sawyer and Charlie for what they did to her? Would this make her out to be a hypocrite?

BTW, I loved Fogey's response. It was exactly what I meant when I said the argument made no sense.

Ok, so Sun's plans to keep Jin by her side didn't work out exactly as planned. Does this strip her of the right to feel hurt and anger towards Sawyer and Charlie for what they did to her? Would this make her out to be a hypocrite? I think we got lost in translation here. I agree with you. :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: I'm just saying the argument is valid. You said it was illogical. That's what I'm not agreeing on.

Although I agree that Sun motivations were more 'sympathetic' the results of the poisoning could have been catastrophic, more so than Sawyer's plan. You don't go poisoning people on a deserted island without any medical facilities. It's not an exact science and very dangerous. Also, Sun was lucky it was Michael and not Walt. There was enough poison to make a grown man very sick, I cannot imagine what it would have done to 10-year-old Walt. Michael wouldn't have cared that Sun poisoning would have been an act of love if Walt had been the victim. Both acts were despicable and selfish. I'm not giving Sun a free pass because she did it for love. It was selfish. (Sun is my favorite female character, btw. I'm not just giving her a free pass for the poisoning, especially since she could have easily hurt a 10-year old kid)

Yes it's true, Sun and Kate's plan was not very well thought out, (perhaps she should have consulted with Sawyer, at the very least it might decrease the negative vibe around it) However, I'm strongly inclined to think that Sun would pick a mild poison that would only give you an upset stomach or make you feel sick. I highly doubt she would actually pick something lethal that had any possibility of killing Jin or any person.

Of course it wasn't lethal. It gave Michael a few stomach cramps; the point was to have Jin fall ill long enough to miss the boat; he would've recovered in a day. The woman knows something about herbs etc. they made that clear from Day 1: her brushing her teeth with some stalky thing, her assisting Jack in DNH when Boone was brought in, her helping Shannon after she lost her asthma meds... clearly, it had already been established that she knew her plants and herbs, hence proving the point that whatever she'd used wasn't that harmful.

She was desperate; Jin hadn't spoken to her for a while, and now he was about to take off, and she might have never seen him again. She was acting out of fear and love, and naturally, Kate was at hand to use Sun's emotions to try and get a place for herself on the boat. If it'd worked out that way, both women would have gotten what they wanted: Jin off the boat, into Sun's arms, and Kate on it. Simple.

Ok, so Sun's plans to keep Jin by her side didn't work out exactly as planned. Does this strip her of the right to feel hurt and anger towards Sawyer and Charlie for what they did to her? Would this make her out to be a hypocrite?

BTW, I loved Fogey's response. It was exactly what I meant when I said the argument made no sense.

Wow, that blew up into a mess :) .

I never said that Sun didn't have the right to feel hurt and angry towards Charlie and Sawyer. I will restate that I said it was horrible that it happened to her. Of course, she is going to be angry for a little while. What I said was that if she holds onto her anger and her hurt, she is being hypocritical. When Sun poisoned Michael she did it because she wanted Jin around. He is her husband and she wanted him to stay with her. She was being selfish. I am not saying that makes her a bad person (I never said she was a bad person), I would probably try to do the same thing. However, she got the wrong guyand it could have been a small child that drank the poison. But in her mind, she was justified for doing what she did. Charlie felt that he was doing something for the greater good, he felt justified for doing what he did (guess I have to split hairs here, I am sure that he felt a lot of guilt about doing it). I think that Sawyer's motivation is a little different. It is easier for Sawyer to hurt people with the expectation that they will hate him than it is for him to let people in and get hurt after he cares about them. Sawyer looks out for himself and keeps himself in a little bubble that doesn't allow other's in.

But to get back to Sun, she is a liar. We have seen her lie about several things. She did cheat on her husband. She is pregnant, yet married to a sterile man (although I really hope that the island cured Jin's infertility and he is the baby daddy). She did kill Coleen, athough, as I said earlier, I think that she was justified in doing that. Sun has done bad things and not gotten caught yet; or, gotten caught and forgiven. Why should she treat Charlie and Sawyer differently than she has been treated? Again, what happened to her was terrible and she should not just snap her fingers and get over it, but she should, in time, forgive them both.

I think we got lost in translation here. I agree with you. :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: I'm just saying the argument is valid. You said it was illogical. That's what I'm not agreeing on.

Thanks Cylune! I think that was I was trying to say made sense in my head, but didn't translate very well. Probably still doesn't.

Is Sun more angry at Sawyer and Charlie for scaring/inadvertently hurting her or is it because she shot Colleen, because of their lie?
As for the poisoning of Michael, I think your forgetting Kate's involvement in that affair. She's the one that wanted on the raft, taking the place of whoever got the Montezuma's Revenge as a result of the drug.

Wow, that blew up into a mess :) .

I never said that Sun didn't have the right to feel hurt and angry towards Charlie and Sawyer. I will restate that I said it was horrible that it happened to her. Of course, she is going to be angry for a little while. What I said was that if she holds onto her anger and her hurt, she is being hypocritical. When Sun poisoned Michael she did it because she wanted Jin around. He is her husband and she wanted him to stay with her. She was being selfish. I am not saying that makes her a bad person (I never said she was a bad person), I would probably try to do the same thing. However, she got the wrong guyand it could have been a small child that drank the poison. But in her mind, she was justified for doing what she did. Charlie felt that he was doing something for the greater good, he felt justified for doing what he did (guess I have to split hairs here, I am sure that he felt a lot of guilt about doing it). I think that Sawyer's motivation is a little different. It is easier for Sawyer to hurt people with the expectation that they will hate him than it is for him to let people in and get hurt after he cares about them. Sawyer looks out for himself and keeps himself in a little bubble that doesn't allow other's in.

But to get back to Sun, she is a liar. We have seen her lie about several things. She did cheat on her husband. She is pregnant, yet married to a sterile man (although I really hope that the island cured Jin's infertility and he is the baby daddy). She did kill Coleen, athough, as I said earlier, I think that she was justified in doing that. Sun has done bad things and not gotten caught yet; or, gotten caught and forgiven. Why should she treat Charlie and Sawyer differently than she has been treated? Again, what happened to her was terrible and she should not just snap her fingers and get over it, but she should, in time, forgive them both.



Thanks Cylune! I think that was I was trying to say made sense in my head, but didn't translate very well. Probably still doesn't.

So you're saying that Sun is this terrible person who's lied, cheated, and killed. She's a BAAAAAAAD person! Wow...therefore, she should forgive Charlie and Sawyer because she's a bad person. Does this argument make sense to you? Is this logical? It makes no sense to me.

ETA: That's like saying, if you're a good person, you shouldn't have to forgive. Only bad people should forgive people.

So you're saying that Sun is this terrible person who's lied, cheated, and killed. She's a BAAAAAAAD person! Wow...therefore, she should forgive Charlie and Sawyer because she's a bad person. Does this argument make sense to you? Is this logical? It makes no sense to me.

Not that is not what I am saying.

For the third time, I never said that she was a terrible person. If you read the first two posts in their entirety, you will see that I explicitly said that she is NOT a terrible person. But in case you misunderstood, I DO NOT think that Sun is terrible and I think that she is justified in her hurt and anger.

Clearly, this argument does make sense to me. None of them are bad people, they are people that are doing the best that they can, given the people that they are. None of them asked to be put in this position. They have made poor decisions, they haven't thought out every action that they have taken. Sawyer and Charlie should not have Sun gunning for them the rest of the time that they are on island because of mistakes that they made. Big mistakes, horrible mistakes, but every person on the island has made big and horrible mistakes.

So you're saying that Sun is this terrible person who's lied, cheated, and killed. She's a BAAAAAAAD person! Wow...therefore, she should forgive Charlie and Sawyer because she's a bad person. Does this argument make sense to you? Is this logical? It makes no sense to me.

ETA: That's like saying, if you're a good person, you shouldn't have to forgive. Only bad people should forgive people.:eek2: :eek2: LOL I like Sun but I think you are too rough on molly1977's post. I feel molly1977 is not saying only bad people need to forgive or that Sun is a really really bad person. Rather I think she is explaining her point as being Sun should be more forgiving of Sawyer and Charlie because she should recognize (or has some of) the same flaws in herself that she sees in them and thus should have some empathy for them and their mistakes.:biggrin: :

Anyway as much as I like Sun, I do see her as flawed and I depart from many in this thread by thinking she is further along in the forgiving process than the look they interpret as a glare indicates. Where many saw a glare I saw Sun starting to smile back at Sawyer then looking down in embarrased confusion because Sawyer was not acting the way she had him pictured.

Oops I see Molly posted while I was typing.

:eek2: :eek2: LOL I like Sun but I think you are too rough on molly1977's post. I feel molly1977 is not saying only bad people need to forgive or that Sun is a really really bad person. Rather I think she is explaining her point as being Sun should be more forgiving of Sawyer and Charlie because she should recognize (or has some of) the same flaws in herself that she sees in them and thus should have some empathy for them and their mistakes.:biggrin: :

Anyway as much as I like Sun, I do see her as flawed and I depart from many in this thread by thinking she is further along in the forgiving process than the look they interpret as a glare indicates. Where many saw a glare I saw Sun starting to smile back at Sawyer then looking down in embarrased confusion because Sawyer was not acting the way she had him pictured.

Thank you, that is what I am saying. :)

I agree with you about Sun being further along as well. Much earlier in this thread, before I opened a can of worms, I wrote that I thought that she started to smile when she saw Sawyer trying to fish. I interpreted it as her first reaction was to smile and laugh at his fishing technique, then she remembered that she was mad at him and the smile dropped. She is not going to be mad for too long.You never know though because she is such a terrible person (just kidding LostIslandBaby).;)

I see that you've said that Sun isn't a terrible person; however, your argument keeps pointing out how much of a liar and a cheater she is. In order to prove your point, all you had to say was that she should forgive, not because she's made mistakes in her past, but because that's in line with her nature, which is forgiving and caring. If you merely point out all of the negative aspects of her storyline, then, say that she should forgive based on that, then yes, you are opening cans of worms...simply because the argument makes no sense.

I see that you've said that Sun isn't a terrible person; however, your argument keeps pointing out how much of a liar and a cheater she is. In order to prove your point, all you had to say was that she should forgive, not because she's made mistakes in her past, but because that's in line with her nature, which is forgiving and caring. If you merely point out all of the negative aspects of her storyline, then, say that she should forgive based on that, then yes, you are opening cans of worms...simply because the argument makes no sense.

I find this mildly insulting. It makes no sense to you, it does makes sense to me. Let's agree to disagree, leave it at that, and call it a day.

I'm going to revise my last line of thought to read "...yes, you are opening a can of worms because not everybody sees Sun the way you do." While I can see Sun as a sweet, caring and sometimes flawed character, it's hard for me to see her labeled as a "liar" and a "murderer." When you use these labels relentlessly, it's going to open up some cans;)

Where many saw a glare I saw Sun starting to smile back at Sawyer then looking down in embarrased confusion because Sawyer was not acting the way she had him pictured.
There's no questioning the second glare that Sun gave Sawyer during the bacon extravaganza. That look was pure poison and derision.

As I stated before but was pretty much ignored, Sun killing Colleen is a direct result of Sawyer/Charlie's gambit. They're just as guilty of killing Colleen as Sun, IMO.

I shudder to think how extensive this thread would've been had Sun given Sawyer the finger instead of a couple of cold stares. lol.

I'm going to revise my last line of thought to read "...yes, you are opening a can of worms because not everybody sees Sun the way you do." While I can see Sun as a sweet, caring and sometimes flawed character, it's hard for me to see her labeled as a "liar" and a "murderer." When you use these labels relentlessly, it's going to open up some cans;)

Good enough. I think that the entire point of showing the backstories is to show that every character is flawed. Nothing is black and white. :)

There's no questioning the second glare that Sun gave Sawyer during the bacon extravaganza. That look was pure poison and derision.

As I stated before but was pretty much ignored, Sun killing Colleen is a direct result of Sawyer/Charlie's gambit. They're just as guilty of killing Colleen as Sun, IMO.

I shudder to think how extensive this thread would've been had Sun given Sawyer the finger instead of a couple of cold stares. lol.

That would have been something to see :biggrin: !!

I think it's cool that Sun was the victim of Sawyer/Charlie's game simply because, she is still the biggest X-Factor of all the heroines, living and dead, on Lost.
If Shannon was the victim and she found out Sawyer/Charlie were responsible, by the end of the day all the Losties and "Others" would know.
If Kate was the victim, either or both of them would've got an immediate punch in the face or kick in the groin.
If Ana-Lucia was the victim, she'd immediately start digging another deep hole to throw them both in. lol.
If Claire was the victim...well it would be unspeakable..but it wouldn't happen anyway because of Charlie.
But because the victim was Sun, the female character we know the least about, we have no real idea of what to expect, and that's what makes it exciting and suspensful.
So looking forward to see how this all plays out.

I shudder to think how extensive this thread would've been had Sun given Sawyer the finger instead of a couple of cold stares. lol.Yes and Yunjin knows that gesture but: How universal is it? Is it also used in Korea or would it be a cultural faux pas for them to attribute it to her in her role as Korean?

Wonder what the thread would be if she had blown him a kiss. Bet it would have been seen as extreme sarcasm by some and as forgiveness by others (and blown Jin's mind).

There's no questioning the second glare that Sun gave Sawyer during the bacon extravaganza. That look was pure poison and derision.That's it - force me to see if I still have it in the VCR & is it this :mad: or this :redface: ? But that is the main look I have been thinking of. If there was no questioning it, would we have this much of a thread?

Edited to add the following: I paid real close attention to what she did with her hands when I rewatched.;) I just can't see her look at him as being that harsh, perhaps because it so closely follows Sun watching Sawyer take a plate of food over to Claire. I don't see it as openly friendly but I don't really see it as a super glare either. I still see it as either confused by his actions or mildly unfriendly, either way it did make him stop and think.

This thread just keeps on going, as was mentioned earlier on, all this discussion just from two stares! Imagine all the great discussion if they actually gave Sun some decent screen time!

What murder? A group of armed invaders were stealing the boat she was sleeping on. She woke up to find one of them in her room. That is self defense and justified in most areas of the world. She committed adultery so she cannot hold a grudge about being abducted by someone she has met since that event? Um lost me there. One misdeed and you are forever banned from holding anyone accountable for their actions that harm you? Same with Liar's aren't allowed to hold a grudge when they are wronged. So Sawyer is wrong to hold a grudge against the Others for what happened to him, ditto Kate? ditto Sayid? ditto Charlie? Ditto Ditto Ditto

Not being a perfect angel does not make you hypocritical if you hold a grudge against friends who have abused your trust. Abusing their trust before they abuse yours to a similar extent and then getting upset with them would be a better example of hypocrisy. I didn't see that happen with the abduction of Sun by Charlie and Sawyer. That said, I think Sun's behavior indicates she is not holding a major grudge and I still can't see a glare in her look towards Sawyer. Hmm can't find a Mister Magoo Smilie to cap off that last statement So just imagine one for me! Thanks.;)

Fogey, forgot to quote this a few pages back, but just wanted to say this is a great post, very well articulated! :)

There's no questioning the second glare that Sun gave Sawyer during the bacon extravaganza. That look was pure poison and derision.
More like an angry stare from a petulant child, wronged for probably the first time in her privileged life. TPTB probably edited out a scene or two of Sun pouting as well. lol. That she didn't tell Jin or anyone else about Sawyer and Charlie's malfeasance merely indicates that Sun's still figuring out how to use this information to her advantage. Blackmailing Sawyer and/or Charlie into doing or sacrificing something is inevitable. Like Father Like Daughter, right?

More like an angry stare from a petulant child, wronged for probably the first time in her privileged life. TPTB probably edited out a scene or two of Sun pouting as well. lol. That she didn't tell Jin or anyone else about Sawyer and Charlie's malfeasance merely indicates that Sun's still figuring out how to use this information to her advantage. Blackmailing Sawyer and/or Charlie into doing or sacrificing something is inevitable. Like Father Like Daughter, right?

oooh, brace yourself Burnt Sienna :hide: .

More like an angry stare from a petulant child, wronged for probably the first time in her privileged life. TPTB probably edited out a scene or two of Sun pouting as well. lol. That she didn't tell Jin or anyone else about Sawyer and Charlie's malfeasance merely indicates that Sun's still figuring out how to use this information to her advantage. Blackmailing Sawyer and/or Charlie into doing or sacrificing something is inevitable. Like Father Like Daughter, right?

Who is this person you are describing? It doesn't sound like Sun to me. It can't be Sun unless you completely ignore all the positive things already mentioned about her in this thread.

That she didn't tell Jin or anyone else about Sawyer and Charlie's malfeasance merely indicates that Sun's still figuring out how to use this information to her advantage. Blackmailing Sawyer and/or Charlie into doing or sacrificing something is inevitable. Like Father Like Daughter, right?

This remains to be seen, but I doubt it.

More like an angry stare from a petulant child, wronged for probably the first time in her privileged life. TPTB probably edited out a scene or two of Sun pouting as well. lol. That she didn't tell Jin or anyone else about Sawyer and Charlie's malfeasance merely indicates that Sun's still figuring out how to use this information to her advantage. Blackmailing Sawyer and/or Charlie into doing or sacrificing something is inevitable. Like Father Like Daughter, right?


I'll back you up! I like Sun, but she is hardly the angel that she has been portrayed to be by some viewers in this thread. (But then again, I like that devious qualilty about her because it makes her much more interesting!) I bet that the blackmail is coming for sure!

I bet that the blackmail is coming for sure! And the payoff for the blackmail would be what? A larger piece of pork at thenext barbeque? Some soap from Sawyer's missing stash? There isn't much on the island for anyone to demand in the way of goods so perhaps services? Sawyer & Charlie doing her laundry?

If Sun were like her dad would she have married Jin to start with? Would Jin have needed to hide just what kind of work he did for her dad from her? She may not be an angel but she is pretty decent as far as the people in Lost Beach Town go. Look at who Claire is willing to trust with Aaron - Sun & Jin.

I don't see Sun as a blackmailer - but then again as mentioned- if Sun had more screen time maybe we would know more about her -
Is she capable of blackmail - is she a liar -
Well she happens to be on an island filled with liars and blackmailers - I can only speculate that she must be one in the same to have landed there - then again maybe she is the sun - the one bright spot left??????

Who is this person you are describing? It doesn't sound like Sun to me. It can't be Sun unless you completely ignore all the positive things already mentioned about her in this thread.
ITA. Sun is justifiably angry with Sawyer but doesn't want to have everyone know because we have seen Jin has quite the temper and he used to kill people for Sun's father. She simply doesn't want Jin to know but at the same time she can't help how she feels about what Sawyer did to her. That's not petulance. Sun is not acting like a spoiled child. :eek2:

More like an angry stare from a petulant child, wronged for probably the first time in her privileged life. TPTB probably edited out a scene or two of Sun pouting as well. lol. That she didn't tell Jin or anyone else about Sawyer and Charlie's malfeasance merely indicates that Sun's still figuring out how to use this information to her advantage. Blackmailing Sawyer and/or Charlie into doing or sacrificing something is inevitable. Like Father Like Daughter, right?

Sienna, you gots to tell me what channel and version of Lost your watching!!! Your Sun definitely sounds like a more interesting and developed character than the one I'm watching on ABC on Wednesdays at 10:00PM EST!!! Does your Jin get more screen time and is he more of an interesting character? LOL!! I'll take your version over ABC's in a New York Minute!!!

Sun is a great actress - maybe it is foreshadowing that she is a brat?

And the payoff for the blackmail would be what? A larger piece of pork at thenext barbeque? Some soap from Sawyer's missing stash? There isn't much on the island for anyone to demand in the way of goods so perhaps services? Sawyer & Charlie doing her laundry?
.

No more Sawyer nicknames for anybody... EVER? ;)

*watches Sawyer's head explode*

ITA. Sun is justifiably angry with Sawyer but doesn't want to have everyone know because we have seen Jin has quite the temper and he used to kill people for Sun's father.

Maybe (probably) she thinks he did, but we never saw him actually kill someone, did we? :confused:

I have to agree with those who say that she will eventually forgive him to at least some extent, and is quite possibly already on the way there. However, forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting that someone is capable of doing something. Her trust may (and should, I think) take more time to win than her forgiveness.

Maybe (probably) she thinks he did, but we never saw him actually kill someone, did we? Actually we saw Jin go through great lengths to avoid killing people.

Yeah I don't think Jin has killed anyone, but Sun doesn't know this and probably thinks he killed a ton of people.

Yeah I don't think Jin has killed anyone, but Sun doesn't know this and probably thinks he killed a ton of people.

Right on!Idont think hes killed anyone either!