1. When smokey roared, Juliet said "what was that" (although she already KNEW what smokey was and activated the alarm).

2. Juliet allowed herself to remain handcuffed to Kate even though she had a key which allowed escape.

3. Juliet pretended to be frightened of smokey and yet smokey backed away from her BEFORE being disarmed.

1 and 3 make no sense becuase she TRIED the fence she didnt know it was going to work
and she was scared of the smoke when it came to her.

Yes, and she also knew who was left behind besides her and Kate. Now how did she know that if she was gassed unconscious like Kate, Jack and Sayid? She can con with the best of them.

1 and 3 make no sense becuase she TRIED the fence she didnt know it was going to work
and she was scared of the smoke when it came to her.

Um... I'm pretty sure she knew it was going to work. Right after it did, she says to Kate, "Alright, we don't know what it is but we know it doesn't like our fences".

Yes, and she also knew who was left behind besides her and Kate. Now how did she know that if she was gassed unconscious like Kate, Jack and Sayid? She can con with the best of them.

I definitely agree with this.

I think she just said that as an "in the moment" little joke things that she does.

like if i gave alittle kid a bar of chocolate and he/she spits it out

"Okay...i dont know her/his name but I know she doesnt like chocoloate"

thats how i got it

There's a fourth con. Just thought of it. Might be full of hooey in the long run. But right now, it makes terrifying sense:

Juliet didn't go out into the jungle to bond with Kate. Juliet went into the jungle to WORK ON Kate. As she said of Ben, the mind game is the thing. By the time they got back to Otherville, Kate was so worked up with guilt, CONVINCED that SHE was the reason Jack wasn't en route to L.A., that she fell apart when (wrongly) apologizing to Jack. And Jack deliberately said NOTHING to reassure her, making her even more angsty. She immediately asks him what they do next.

SHE IMMEDIATELY FALLS BACK INTO THE "HE'S THE LEADER, WHAT HE SAYS, GOES" MODE. So that she won't question Jack's leadership decisions when they get back. Decisions he now believes are best for everyone--but aren't. No, he hasn't been brainwashed. But Ben (with Juliet's willing or unwilling help) has brought Jack to rationalize FOR HIMSELF the "It's more complicated" theory. Remember when Cindy told him that "it's more complicated" than Bad Others hold Good Losties prisoner/kill and kidnap? Jack has now been convinced of this. . .somehow. . .in the 4-1/2 days he was with the Others in Otherville. It's why we're seeing such non-Jack-like behavior as "I trust them because YOU told me to" and stony silence where kind reassurances would've been offered and "this Other is gonna live with US now."

Jack has been convinced that what he's doing is for the greater good. It's 99% likely that it isn't. But he's been convinced of it. I have no idea how. But he has. And if the losties keep him as leader, it's gonna be to their detriment, harm, and maybe even doom!

Juliet's main con was to rattle Kate where she was weakest--her emotional baggage. So rattled, she wouldn't notice things like--how is a big guy like Jack UNCONSCIOUS FOR A DAY, while she woke up in a matter of hours?

And when Locke's "temporary" stay with the Others is done, and he returns to the beach (I really do believe he'll return to the beach), he'll be all: I know the Secrets of the Others. And Jack--to the surprise of many of our regulars--will be: Great, John. We'll plan our strategy around it. (Ben really DOES like his mind games!)

This would've worked like a charm. . .except for Sayid. He sees thru her (though not the Jack is in cahoots part), and WON'T be rattled. Neither will James. Neither, I suspect, will be the much-cleverer-than-he-lets-on Hurley. Between them, they'll ease Kate's guilt jitters, and the four will work together--to stop whatever it is that's going on. The only question is: will they succeed? :eek:


That's my theory. For now. TPTB may jerk things all around again. But as things stand now, based on what we've seen and know (of events and characters), it makes horrible sense.

I think I'll go :hide: now.

There's a fourth con. Just thought of it. Might be full of hooey in the long run. But right now, it makes terrifying sense:

Juliet didn't go out into the jungle to bond with Kate. Juliet went into the jungle to WORK ON Kate. As she said of Ben, the mind game is the thing. By the time they got back to Otherville, Kate was so worked up with guilt, CONVINCED that SHE was the reason Jack wasn't en route to L.A., that she fell apart when (wrongly) apologizing to Jack. And Jack deliberately said NOTHING to reassure her, making her even more angsty. She immediately asks him what they do next.

SHE IMMEDIATELY FALLS BACK INTO THE "HE'S THE LEADER, WHAT HE SAYS, GOES" MODE. So that she won't question Jack's leadership decisions when they get back. Decisions he now believes are best for everyone--but aren't. No, he hasn't been brainwashed. But Ben (with Juliet's willing or unwilling help) has brought Jack to rationalize FOR HIMSELF the "It's more complicated" theory. Remember when Cindy told him that "it's more complicated" than Bad Others hold Good Losties prisoner/kill and kidnap? Jack has now been convinced of this. . .somehow. . .in the 4-1/2 days he was with the Others in Otherville. It's why we're seeing such non-Jack-like behavior as "I trust them because YOU told me to" and stony silence where kind reassurances would've been offered and "this Other is gonna live with US now."

Jack has been convinced that what he's doing is for the greater good. It's 99% likely that it isn't. But he's been convinced of it. I have no idea how. But he has. And if the losties keep him as leader, it's gonna be to their detriment, harm, and maybe even doom!

Juliet's main con was to rattle Kate where she was weakest--her emotional baggage. So rattled, she wouldn't notice things like--how is a big guy like Jack UNCONSCIOUS FOR A DAY, while she woke up in a matter of hours?

And when Locke's "temporary" stay with the Others is done, and he returns to the beach (I really do believe he'll return to the beach), he'll be all: I know the Secrets of the Others. And Jack--to the surprise of many of our regulars--will be: Great, John. We'll plan our strategy around it. (Ben really DOES like his mind games!)

This would've worked like a charm. . .except for Sayid. He sees thru her (though not the Jack is in cahoots part), and WON'T be rattled. Neither will James. Neither, I suspect, will be the much-cleverer-than-he-lets-on Hurley. Between them, they'll ease Kate's guilt jitters, and the four will work together--to stop whatever it is that's going on. The only question is: will they succeed? :eek:


That's my theory. For now. TPTB may jerk things all around again. But as things stand now, based on what we've seen and know (of events and characters), it makes horrible sense.

I think I'll go :hide: now.


Holy cow!! Great post and excellent points. I have nothing of interest to add other than, fantastic point about Juliet conning Kate into feeling guilty. I hadn't thought of it that way but you're right on the mark. She made darn sure to drive the point home that the basic reason Jack was gassed and left was all Kates fault.
She is evil isn't she?! I'm never quite sure with her.....

Juliette also wants to drive home the point that she is one of them. Left behind

Not sure that I still trust her, but I believe Jack does. But Sayid's spidersense is tingling, so total acceptance is far from garunteed.

Very true, however:


Juliet's main con was to rattle Kate where she was weakest--her emotional baggage. So rattled, she wouldn't notice things like--how is a big guy like Jack UNCONSCIOUS FOR A DAY, while she woke up in a matter of hours?


The bigger they are the harder they fall :P


This would've worked like a charm. . .except for Sayid. He sees thru her (though not the Jack is in cahoots part), and WON'T be rattled. Neither will James. Neither, I suspect, will be the much-cleverer-than-he-lets-on Hurley. Between them, they'll ease Kate's guilt jitters, and the four will work together--to stop whatever it is that's going on. The only question is: will they succeed? :eek:


Oh man i love Sayid, he's become my new favourite character. He sees straight through Juliet's bullcrap. At the end of last episode when Jack said "she coming" after Sayid had said no, i think he's just quietly calculating a plan. He won't let Jack just take over, Sayid knows best. He's gonna take Juliet to the cleaners.

Her character should have been named "Connie" instead of Juilet. :biggrin:

There's a fourth con. Just thought of it. Might be full of hooey in the long run. But right now, it makes terrifying sense:

Juliet didn't go out into the jungle to bond with Kate. Juliet went into the jungle to WORK ON Kate. As she said of Ben, the mind game is the thing. By the time they got back to Otherville, Kate was so worked up with guilt, CONVINCED that SHE was the reason Jack wasn't en route to L.A., that she fell apart when (wrongly) apologizing to Jack. And Jack deliberately said NOTHING to reassure her, making her even more angsty. She immediately asks him what they do next.

SHE IMMEDIATELY FALLS BACK INTO THE "HE'S THE LEADER, WHAT HE SAYS, GOES" MODE. So that she won't question Jack's leadership decisions when they get back. Decisions he now believes are best for everyone--but aren't. No, he hasn't been brainwashed. But Ben (with Juliet's willing or unwilling help) has brought Jack to rationalize FOR HIMSELF the "It's more complicated" theory. Remember when Cindy told him that "it's more complicated" than Bad Others hold Good Losties prisoner/kill and kidnap? Jack has now been convinced of this. . .somehow. . .in the 4-1/2 days he was with the Others in Otherville. It's why we're seeing such non-Jack-like behavior as "I trust them because YOU told me to" and stony silence where kind reassurances would've been offered and "this Other is gonna live with US now."

Jack has been convinced that what he's doing is for the greater good. It's 99% likely that it isn't. But he's been convinced of it. I have no idea how. But he has. And if the losties keep him as leader, it's gonna be to their detriment, harm, and maybe even doom!

Juliet's main con was to rattle Kate where she was weakest--her emotional baggage. So rattled, she wouldn't notice things like--how is a big guy like Jack UNCONSCIOUS FOR A DAY, while she woke up in a matter of hours?

And when Locke's "temporary" stay with the Others is done, and he returns to the beach (I really do believe he'll return to the beach), he'll be all: I know the Secrets of the Others. And Jack--to the surprise of many of our regulars--will be: Great, John. We'll plan our strategy around it. (Ben really DOES like his mind games!)

This would've worked like a charm. . .except for Sayid. He sees thru her (though not the Jack is in cahoots part), and WON'T be rattled. Neither will James. Neither, I suspect, will be the much-cleverer-than-he-lets-on Hurley. Between them, they'll ease Kate's guilt jitters, and the four will work together--to stop whatever it is that's going on. The only question is: will they succeed? :eek:


That's my theory. For now. TPTB may jerk things all around again. But as things stand now, based on what we've seen and know (of events and characters), it makes horrible sense.

I think I'll go :hide: now.

Great post, and I completely agree. I've also felt in my gut that Jack's behavior has been off since we last saw him on the Hydra island.

It's kind of obvious that Juliet is lying about the whole "left behind" thing, since she had the keys to the cuffs and was the one who cuffed herself to Kate in the first place. And yes, Juliet and Kate in the jungle DEFINITELY served a greater purpose. Why else would they be out there? Wouldn't it be much easier to give the "left behind" appearance to Juliet if she was left in the barracks with Kate?

I think it is definitely a big manipulation. I also think there was a reason for their run-in with the smoke monster. What the hell were those flashes anyway? Sorry Juliet, I believe that you know what the monster is.

Absolutely she does. She's still lying. She has now shown that she will lie until she has to tell the truth and even then she will only tell as much as she has to.

I believe she is still a plant, her and Ben were discussing how to control people, then we find out she has the key to the handcuffs. She is going undercover and is still an other.

Juliette also wants to drive home the point that she is one of them. Left behind

Not sure that I still trust her, but I believe Jack does. But Sayid's spidersense is tingling, so total acceptance is far from garunteed.

There is so much more to Juluette than we know. How does an inscure mentaly abused exwife turn in to a strong willed defesive fighting expert in 3 years? She is def coning and playing the same mind games ben does. She is no to be trusted.


Does anyone think J.A.C.O.B is a councle of elders? J= Juliette A= Alex?,c,o unknow yet and B = Ben.

There's a fourth con. Just thought of it. Might be full of hooey in the long run. But right now, it makes terrifying sense:

Juliet didn't go out into the jungle to bond with Kate. Juliet went into the jungle to WORK ON Kate. As she said of Ben, the mind game is the thing. By the time they got back to Otherville, Kate was so worked up with guilt, CONVINCED that SHE was the reason Jack wasn't en route to L.A., that she fell apart when (wrongly) apologizing to Jack. And Jack deliberately said NOTHING to reassure her, making her even more angsty. She immediately asks him what they do next.

SHE IMMEDIATELY FALLS BACK INTO THE "HE'S THE LEADER, WHAT HE SAYS, GOES" MODE. So that she won't question Jack's leadership decisions when they get back. Decisions he now believes are best for everyone--but aren't. No, he hasn't been brainwashed. But Ben (with Juliet's willing or unwilling help) has brought Jack to rationalize FOR HIMSELF the "It's more complicated" theory. Remember when Cindy told him that "it's more complicated" than Bad Others hold Good Losties prisoner/kill and kidnap? Jack has now been convinced of this. . .somehow. . .in the 4-1/2 days he was with the Others in Otherville. It's why we're seeing such non-Jack-like behavior as "I trust them because YOU told me to" and stony silence where kind reassurances would've been offered and "this Other is gonna live with US now."

Jack has been convinced that what he's doing is for the greater good. It's 99% likely that it isn't. But he's been convinced of it. I have no idea how. But he has. And if the losties keep him as leader, it's gonna be to their detriment, harm, and maybe even doom!

Juliet's main con was to rattle Kate where she was weakest--her emotional baggage. So rattled, she wouldn't notice things like--how is a big guy like Jack UNCONSCIOUS FOR A DAY, while she woke up in a matter of hours?

And when Locke's "temporary" stay with the Others is done, and he returns to the beach (I really do believe he'll return to the beach), he'll be all: I know the Secrets of the Others. And Jack--to the surprise of many of our regulars--will be: Great, John. We'll plan our strategy around it. (Ben really DOES like his mind games!)

This would've worked like a charm. . .except for Sayid. He sees thru her (though not the Jack is in cahoots part), and WON'T be rattled. Neither will James. Neither, I suspect, will be the much-cleverer-than-he-lets-on Hurley. Between them, they'll ease Kate's guilt jitters, and the four will work together--to stop whatever it is that's going on. The only question is: will they succeed? :eek:
Great post, and I full-heartedly agree. I even go one step farther - this whole con started much, much earlier. I never believed the whole "Juliet is being outcast by the Others" story. I think that was a big part of the manipulation that was going on with Jack, a way to make Jack bond with Juliet and trust her on his own terms - namely after she nearly lost her life for helping him and he talked Ben into reducing the sentence to branding her. And Ben was pretty quick in agreeing to write that omnious note that reduced Juliet's sentence from death to being marked - too quick for it not to be something he had considered before.
I'm convinced that Ben considered the possibility that Jack would do something during the surgery beforehand. Ben is not stupid. He might not have told anybody else about it, but Juliet was in on it. The whole time the two of them were playing Jack who is by now convinced that Juliet is nearly just as much a victim as Jack himself is.
Jack only trusted Juliet after she nearly got killed while "helping" his friends, he thinks his trust in her is justified, and he thinks that he's got things under control. I don't think he's been brainwashed, I just think he's in complete and utter inner uproar about everything that happened over the past days. He doesn't have a cool head right now, especially since he's still pretty angry about what Kate did - so he's rather believing Juliet than her.
I, too, am glad that Sayid doesn't seem to be that easily convinced, and neither will Kate and Sawyer be. I'm looking forward to what's coming up there next.

There is so much more to Juluette than we know. How does an inscure mentaly abused exwife turn in to a strong willed defesive fighting expert in 3 years? She is def coning and playing the same mind games ben does. She is no to be trusted.


Does anyone think J.A.C.O.B is a councle of elders? J= Juliette A= Alex?,c,o unknow yet and B = Ben.


"C" = Christian?

How did Juliet know that those keys were in her pocket if she didn't know that they were there to begin with? It didn't show her surprisingly finding them in her pocket. Kate would have saw if she did.

How did Juliet know that those keys were in her pocket if she didn't know that they were there to begin with? It didn't show her surprisingly finding them in her pocket. Kate would have saw if she did.

When Juliet woke up in the jungle and realized that the Others left her behind, and found Kate next to her, she knew that she would have to stay with Kate. Like she said, she didn't want to get left behind again, so she handcuffed herself to Kate and pretended to be knocked out until she awoke.

And I trust her. I mean, the Others have four reasons to leave her behind.

1) She killed Danny.
2) She tried to kill Ben.
3) She likes Jack (I think it's obvious).
4) Ben couldn't keep her promise.

There's a fourth con. Just thought of it. Might be full of hooey in the long run. But right now, it makes terrifying sense:

Juliet didn't go out into the jungle to bond with Kate. Juliet went into the jungle to WORK ON Kate. As she said of Ben, the mind game is the thing. By the time they got back to Otherville, Kate was so worked up with guilt, CONVINCED that SHE was the reason Jack wasn't en route to L.A., that she fell apart when (wrongly) apologizing to Jack. And Jack deliberately said NOTHING to reassure her, making her even more angsty. She immediately asks him what they do next....

This is how I interpreted that.

up until about 45 minutes into the episode I bought everything from Juliet. After her hammering on Kate I switched to the above view. I won't argue with it- there was no reason except personal gain for Juliet to be critical of Kate.

Don

Juliet has learned how to con from the best: Ben. I agree she was only working Kate and making sure that Kate wouldn't stand in the way of Jack accepting her among them. And I go so far as to think that the con started way back when they first took Jack. She never wanted to kill Ben, it was just a way to bond with Jack. So now she has him believing that she is this tragic figure that he must save. The point of the con, I'm not sure about. But she is so a mole. I hope Sayid stands firm and gets the truth.

was it a con when blondie showed dr. j. the flashcards
about ben being a liar?

i always thought that it may not have been a con
because blondie's flashback concerned
her sister and how she was caring for her.

as compared to kate-the-flake [ i am not a kate fan ]
and her flashbacks which reveal her cons.

blondie's flashbacks - at least to me - that she
will do anything to get off the island
and back to a normal life.

so were the flashcards another con?

I'm sorry, but if anyone still trusts Juliet at this point, they are very very naive. She definitely was there to con Kate. The question is why? And Juliet really didn't do such a great job to be honest. I mean, if she really wanted to seem innocent, she should have looked surprised to find those keys in her pocket (or wherever they were hiding.) Kate really has reason now to distrust Juliet. And Sayid certainly doesn't trust her by that look he gave at the end. I leave it up to Sayid to get the truth out of that sandwich wielding spy! ;)

Save The Humans - Great post, and very well thought out...I like it. To add some fuel to the fire...consider this: Jack has been manipulated/conned into believing that his return to the Losties on the beach is the best thing for them all, even though it may not really be. Juliet has been sent along (supposedly "left behind") to have a watchful eye and do damage control. Sayid obviously isn't buying into her "left behind" story and rightfully so. Kate has now been broken down/manipulated to the point where she apologizes to Jack for ruining his chances to go home, and like STH said - he deliberately said nothing, because this was part of the overall plan; to break down Kate. She will now listen to Jack and not question his decisions....

And a nice tie in to all this? Remember Jack's tattoo? Isabel ironically remarked to him its meaning: "He walks amongst us, but he is not one of us" She was obviously privy to the overall strategy, knowing that Jack would eventually go back to the Losties but he wouldn't really *be* a Lostie anymore.... thoughts?

When Juliet woke up in the jungle and realized that the Others left her behind, and found Kate next to her, she knew that she would have to stay with Kate. Like she said, she didn't want to get left behind again, so she handcuffed herself to Kate and pretended to be knocked out until she awoke.

And I trust her. I mean, the Others have four reasons to leave her behind.

1) She killed Danny.
2) She tried to kill Ben.
3) She likes Jack (I think it's obvious).
4) Ben couldn't keep her promise.


So Juliet keeps an extra set of handcuffs on her at all times? I just don't trust the lady.

Cassidy? She just hasn't shown up on the island yet...I think she could be an other...

So Juliet keeps an extra set of handcuffs on her at all times? I just don't trust the lady.

Maybe she had other plans for those handcuffs. :cool: