So, others have posted on this for this episode, but I thought I'd start a post dedicated to the theory of underground tunneling by the Others.

In Expose, Paulo saw Juliet and Ben in The Pearl, and it didn't seem that they came through the hatch door. They cruised in quietly, and would have noticed that the door was cleared. Then they cruised out quietly, and it seemed that maybe they were using trails underground to maneuver about.

In this ep, Sayid says the Others disappeared without a trace. Perhaps they used the tunnels or are hiding there until our crew leaves..

Now our gang is heading back to the beach. Why hasn't Juliet mentioned the tunnels? Unless it comes up soon, I think that's pretty clear proof that she still works with the Others.

Or there are no tunnels

Or there are no tunnels
No, there must be tunnels everywhere because they were able to so easily take the children from the Tailies, and they move around the island a whole lot quicker than the Losties. They can't be traveling overland because they're just too fast and quiet. 50 people moving through the jungle would leave a path bigger than the few footprints Kate was trying to track.

How could there be tunnels though - that is one thing I have never figured out

On the hatch map, you can see passageways leading from each station to the Pearl in the center. It is noted that the passageways were blocked after "the incident" - presumably to keep the other stations safe from a sneak attack using those passageways.

I always assumed the passageways were tunnels - it just makes the most sense, especially after seeing an "escape hatch" tunnel-like thing in the Staff (where Claire was taken).

Thanks Lost -
Do you have a link to the page?

In Expose, Paulo saw Juliet and Ben in The Pearl, and it didn't seem that they came through the hatch door. They cruised in quietly, and would have noticed that the door was cleared. Then they cruised out quietly, and it seemed that maybe they were using trails underground to maneuver about

Actually when ben and juliet walked into the pearl you hear ben say something about the door being open and for juliet to remember to have it closed and covered up by the plane.

There are definitely tunnels. They were shown on the map (http://lostpedia.com/images/f/f5/3x12_ParAvion_Cabling_Map.jpg) Sayid got at the Flame station. So I would guess that the Others and Locke had gone into the tunnels. The thing I don't get is why that hasn't occurred to Sayid.

There are definitely tunnels. They were shown on the map (http://lostpedia.com/images/f/f5/3x12_ParAvion_Cabling_Map.jpg) Sayid got at the Flame station. So I would guess that the Others and Locke had gone into the tunnels. The thing I don't get is why that hasn't occurred to Sayid.
Exactly.
I mean, on the map you linked you can SEE a passageway marked "Subterranean Passage 20' deep" so it's pretty obvious there is an underground tunnel.

In Season 1, I had a wild theory that the whispers were coming from below - that there were people in an underground tunnel and their voices were floating up to the surface through air vents. Turns out I probably wasn't too far off the mark! :lol:

Plus as I mentioned in another thread Sawyer was reading Watership Down in this thread so maybe it's an allusion to the tunnels (like rabbit warrens)

Well, tonight we learned that Smokie was not Cooper. It was outside the barracks when Cooper was shown to Locke. Besides, according to Juliet, it and the others don't get along. Anyways, I'm still leaning to the idea that Cooper was not the real Cooper. So is there another 'entity' on the island capable of manifesting things? Is this the magic box Ben was talking about? Was it the bright light that Locke encountered in Season 1? This may very well be the case...We already knew that Smokie (as Yemi) and Ben wanted two opposite things to happen at the Swan: Ben wanted the button not pushed, while Smokie wanted it pushed. So this episode may reinforce the idea that they are 'enemies'.
Another thought I had after watching the Smokie hitting the sonic fence... Apparently, it can't fly over it; this may be because it is somehow 'attached' to something undeground, but why not transform itself or create a 'person' (another of its manifestations) to interact with the fence access panel? If I remember well, it interacted with things at the beach and created fire, so we know its manifestations are very solid and intelligent too. Perhaps it doesn't know the code...Perhaps that's why it flashed Juliet...It was scanning her for the access code. So why didn't it use it then? It's interesting to remember that we have never seen both things at the same time: Smokie and its manifestations; so perhaps, for some reason, it can't 'transform' itself while there are people watching it.
Why did the others leave so fast?
I believe that it is somehow related to Locke and Cooper. Ben used Cooper (real or not) to convince Locke to go with the others. Why? Ben wants out and he wants Locke to become their leader. But where are they going?
Another island? mmm... They used that already. Another barracks community? More of the same? So where the heck are these people going? I think they are going someplace lots of fans have been longing to see: THE UNDERGROUND.
And what is there underground? Two important things: The Box. Although I dont believe there is a physical box there, I do believe there may be the source for all the 'wishes come true' and might be heavily guarded... What's the second important thing: PEOPLE. LOTS AND LOTS OF PEOPLE. A very big community (a lot bigger that just 50 others) living underground. And that, my friends, will be the game changer.
Ben is gonna show Locke the people (original hostiles) that he wants Locke to lead.

Eh nice theory, but more importantly...

WHO IS GOING TO PUSH BEN IN HIS WHEELCHAIR?

Anyway they're obviously moving somewhere safe, and they looked like they knew where they were going. Plus it must be a very important place, as they didn't want the newly out of favour Juliet to see it, or Jack. Underground...hmm maybe?

The whole smokey being cooper thing still could be true, when Smokey was outside the camp chasing Kate and Juliet that could have been way after Locke saw Cooper in his room. Between those scenes you have no idea what amount of time had elapsed. It still could be plausible. Unless next episode or in the future sometime we get to see if the Others took the tied up Cooper with them.

As for my opinion though i thought Cooper was real, i think they had him there for some time, and when Ben told Locke he came to take him back to their camp i thought there was an element of truth there. Maybe that wasn't the sole reason for getting captured inside the Swan station but i think he did want Locke to go back to their camp, to see Cooper. Whatever stems from that i have no idea however.

About Ben on the wheel chair...I don't think he really needs one...;)

I would totally love there to be a vast Underworld to the island.

It would make perfect sense. There is the cable going into the ground. There was the chain that almost dragged Locke down into a deep pit. Yes and the Underground is where they control Smokie! This has got to be the case. It would just be so awesome.

About this vast underground community... I believe that Smokie may be its 'protector or guardian'. Now my question is was Smokie created by Dharma or was it already on the island when it arrived? We know that the sonic-fenced perimeter surrounding the Barracks seems to have been designed to keep Smokie off, so does this mean that Smokie was already on the island? If so, how did the construction workers protect themselves from it while building all the stations? The answer may lie in its nature. If it is based on technology, how do you explain Dharma was able to develop such thing in the 70's...or even in the 2000's? (of course, Desmond's time travel might become handy here...). That's why at the moment I'm leaning more towards a supernatural explanation. So let's just say Smokie was already on the island. We know that Danielle called it a Security System and, when asked, what did it protect, she responded 'The Island'. So what's there on the island that needs its protection?


Well, according to my theory here: http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=73844, what the island needs is PEOPLE living there and BELIEVING in its 'powers' or, like Ben called it, the 'magic box'. John Locke and probably The Others are a good example of the kind of people the island is interested in. But, like I said in this theory, the more believers, the more power 'the island' has. So do you think 50 others are enough? I don't think so. That's why I believe there are a LOT more people hiding somewhere that we haven't seen yet. These people are the Hostiles mentioned by Dr Candle. The natives that were living on the island before Dharma started with their experiments there. These are the people Smokie/Cerberus protects. Why the name of Cerberus then? As you all probably know Cerberus is a mythological three-headed dog that guards the entrance to the underworld (HADES) making sure only dead people enter and no one can ever leave. They (Dharma) couldn't have chosen a better name for this weird thing... Imagine all those Dharma people finding out about the hostiles while trying to build the underground stations... Imagine their surprise when they first encouter Smokie! Now the question is: how on earth did they manage to build the facilities with that black cloud around? Hmm... I don't have a definite answer for that, but perhaps they developed a System, A Security System to protect themselves from the Island's own Security System. Confusing? Perhaps that's what the BDM refers to when it says 'possible malfuncion of the Cerberus System', as in '...malfunction of Dharma's Security System against Island's Cerberus.


I have no idea what this Security System might be or how it might work but, for some reason, Karl's brainwashing session comes to my mind... If Cerberus scans people looking for their 'good' qualities, maybe a good brain wash could help 'trick' Cerberus into thinking that the target is a 'good' person. I don't know if Dharma used to do the same or that's just a procedure that only the above-the-ground-Others use.
But let's go back to the Underground Others. This would be the Hades or Underworld and Smokie, aka Cerberus, would be in charge of not letting any 'native/hostile' leave or get to the surface and also not letting any 'not good' people get to their community. In regards of the word 'Underworld', it is interesting to mention that TPTB confirmed that the translation to the egyptian hieroglyps in the Swan counter was UNDERWORLD. Does this mean that The Swan Electromagnetic Machine had anything to do with Smokie? Did it control the Dharma Security System against Cerberus?

So how can The Others be heading towards the Underworld then? Wouldn't they be stopped by Cerberus? No, because they are on the 'list'. They are the 'good' guys. So how can they get in and out of the Underworld then? Wouldn't Cerberus stop them from trying to leave? Hmm... That's a tricky question... Perhaps the Others found a way to trick Cerberus so they can leave and come back as they please. That's why The Others are special and they are allowed to live in the Barracks. Or perhaps, if this Smokie 'creature' is intelligent, they may have made a deal with it/him/her.
So why did they have the Sonic Fence on then if they are 'friends' with Cerberus? Hmmm... Another tricky question... Perhaps they don't like it being around even if they have a deal with it. Or perhaps they just turned it on as an extra protection agaisnt the Losties.

This theory could explain why Locke was being dragged down a hole by the Black Cloud, for example. He, as a believer, is already allowed to go to the Underworld. The children are being kept in the Underworld too.
I know there may be lots of holes but I'm still working on it! Hope you like it!

I believe there are tunnels for three reasons:

1- Ben and Juliet in the pearl
2- Smokey tried to drag Locke into a hole which I believe leads to the tunnel system
3- The map in the swan that was painted gave the impression that they were all connected . . . at least at some point

Also Sawyer reading Watership down. About a group who have to find a new home. The home being underground....

This might also explain some of the whispers. Peoples voices coming up through the cerebus vents?

Also Sawyer reading Watership down. About a group who have to find a new home. The home being underground....

This might also explain some of the whispers. Peoples voices coming up through the cerebus vents?
totally agree about the whispers!

Small update on my theory... Perhaps Jacob is/was the leader amongst The Underworld 'Others' but something happened to him and that's why Ben became their 'temporary?' leader. This would make a lot more sense if we believe that Benjamin Linus is the SON of Jacob.

I think that they are using the tunnels, it seems most logical. The only problem that I find is Ben is still in a wheelchair, there has to be an entrance that would be wheelchair accessable. So maybe there is somekind of cave that leads into the tunnels ? ~ I also noticed that the Others had carry bags. This tells me that they took stuff that they needed possibly because they had no intention on coming back to Othersville. I also think that they are going back to the original place that they had came from. In a pod cast, D & C said that the barracks ( Othersville) was actually called New Othertown. So this means there was an Old Othertown...my bet is they are heading back there, possibly to Jacob.

I think that they are using the tunnels, it seems most logical. The only problem that I find is Ben is still in a wheelchair, there has to be an entrance that would be wheelchair accessable. So maybe there is somekind of cave that leads into the tunnels ? ~ I also noticed that the Others had carry bags. This tells me that they took stuff that they needed possibly because they had no intention on coming back to Othersville. I also think that they are going back to the original place that they had came from. In a pod cast, D & C said that the barracks ( Othersville) was actually called New Othertown. So this means there was an Old Othertown...my bet is they are heading back there, possibly to Jacob.
Well, I think that the entrance to the Underworld may be next to the shore in the form of a huge cave. So htat means they need a sea vehicle to get there...I kinda agree with you about them coming back to their original place (check my theory a couple of posts above) and about Ben in the wheelchair... Well, he can be carried by a couple of others, no big deal. BUT... I don't think he needs a wheelchair.... Shhhh
Anyways, I think he will still pretend to need it to convice their whole Underground Community that he CAN"T be their leader anymore...So guess who will become The New King Of Old Othertown?
Yep, our old friend LOCKE.

You guys also forgot the staff. There is no way that the OTHERS carried Furniture across that trek of trees.

All signs point to an underground system

1.The hatch maps showing being connected at one point
2. No way that the Others could make it to the Tailies and the Losties so fast
3. They are always blowing up hatches. My assumption is so that they can block tunnel passages.
4. The staff incidents

The whole smokey being cooper thing still could be true, when Smokey was outside the camp chasing Kate and Juliet that could have been way after Locke saw Cooper in his room. Between those scenes you have no idea what amount of time had elapsed. It still could be plausible. Unless next episode or in the future sometime we get to see if the Others took the tied up Cooper with them.

As for my opinion though i thought Cooper was real, i think they had him there for some time, and when Ben told Locke he came to take him back to their camp i thought there was an element of truth there. Maybe that wasn't the sole reason for getting captured inside the Swan station but i think he did want Locke to go back to their camp, to see Cooper. Whatever stems from that i have no idea however.

They could have turned the fence off earlier to get SMOKEY/COOPER in the barracks

That's why Juliet knew the fence was off

I think Cooper was REAL too
just a thought

Outstanding thread.

From the Blast Door Map: CADUCEUS STATION BELIEVED TO HAVE BEEN ABANDONED DUE TO AH/MDG INCIDENT OF 1985. OR: POSSIBLE CATASTROPHIC MALFUNCTION OF CERBERUS SYSTEM.

I think we need to remember that if Smokie is the Cerberus System, there's a good chance it's on the fritz. I don't think anyone has control over it completely anymore, if at all. It also could be operating in ways no one intended or imagined.

Yes, I do agree that there is an extensive underground system on the island. I further believe that Smokie's mechanical and horn blowing noises come from parts of this underground system (CV - Cerberus Vent, possibly?) I think there is an underground component to the "smoke" we see above ground. As for the manifestations....well, I don't know.

About a whole civilization underground? Wow. That would be impressive, like some kind of hollow earth deal? Very interesting.

They could have turned the fence off earlier to get SMOKEY/COOPER in the barracks

That's why Juliet knew the fence was off

I think Cooper was REAL too
just a thought
yes, you are right about that possibility. Since Ben probably wanted to lure Locke into the whole magic box thing, he may have requested Smokie's services to bring Cooper to life.
100%
Outstanding thread.

From the Blast Door Map: CADUCEUS STATION BELIEVED TO HAVE BEEN ABANDONED DUE TO AH/MDG INCIDENT OF 1985. OR: POSSIBLE CATASTROPHIC MALFUNCTION OF CERBERUS SYSTEM.

I think we need to remember that if Smokie is the Cerberus System, there's a good chance it's on the fritz. I don't think anyone has control over it completely anymore, if at all. It also could be operating in ways no one intended or imagined.

Yes, I do agree that there is an extensive underground system on the island. I further believe that Smokie's mechanical and horn blowing noises come from parts of this underground system (CV - Cerberus Vent, possibly?) I think there is an underground component to the "smoke" we see above ground. As for the manifestations....well, I don't know.

About a whole civilization underground? Wow. That would be impressive, like some kind of hollow earth deal? Very interesting.

That's why I called it the 'game changer'. 50 crazy and mysterious people kidnapping you is weird and scary. But hundreds (maybe a thousand?) of indigenius people that for some weird reason never go to the surface and are all protected by an impossible black cloud monster is even scarier.

protected by an impossible black cloud monster that may be completely unpredictable because it's gone haywire.

I agree, there are quite a few people that are missing up to this point. I think them being located underground is a leading theory. I wonder why the Others spent so much time on the outside looking in (so to speak)?

About Ben on the wheel chair...I don't think he really needs one...;)

Now there's an idea I hadn't even considered! I can't even imagine what Locke would do if he was duped by Ben like that :eek2:

Now there's an idea I hadn't even considered! I can't even imagine what Locke would do if he was duped by Ben like that :eek2:

By the time Locke finds out about that, Ben will already be off the island. It's all part of Ben's really long con on everybody. He wants out and the only way is by getting the island another 'faith' leader.

Also, when they were in the Flame and Locke said he searched the whole building, Sayid lifts the carpet to show there was a room underneath the floor. That could have been a clue. At the compound, Sayid says he's looked all over and nothing. They're probably all under a rug, so to speak.
Tunnels just seem to make the most sense.

I like the idea that they're using tunnels. It gives more credibility to the quote from season 2 about the Others and that "They don't leave footprints." I forget who said that.

why didnt Sayid just see them on the map?


Now our gang is heading back to the beach. Why hasn't Juliet mentioned the tunnels? Unless it comes up soon, I think that's pretty clear proof that she still works with the Others.

How could there be tunnels though - that is one thing I have never figured out

someone dug them

Outstanding thread.

From the Blast Door Map: CADUCEUS STATION BELIEVED TO HAVE BEEN ABANDONED DUE TO AH/MDG INCIDENT OF 1985. OR: POSSIBLE CATASTROPHIC MALFUNCTION OF CERBERUS SYSTEM.

I think we need to remember that if Smokie is the Cerberus System, there's a good chance it's on the fritz. I don't think anyone has control over it completely anymore, if at all. It also could be operating in ways no one intended or imagined.

Yes, I do agree that there is an extensive underground system on the island. I further believe that Smokie's mechanical and horn blowing noises come from parts of this underground system (CV - Cerberus Vent, possibly?) I think there is an underground component to the "smoke" we see above ground. As for the manifestations....well, I don't know.

About a whole civilization underground? Wow. That would be impressive, like some kind of hollow earth deal? Very interesting.

Cerebus Vent is definitely what the acronym stands for. Several acronyms on the blast door map were revealed via the official lost puzzles.

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Blast_door_map_notations

Also look at that list and notice that the blast door map also had this quote

" Possible terminal point for Subterranean E.E.P.* tunnel network?"

According to the one of the official lost puzzles the acronym EEP stands for Emergency Escape Protocol!!

Edit: looking at that blast door map more closely there are numerous references to a subterranean network.

For sure, Sayid needs to look at that map again and closely. I would expect him to have figured out the underground tunnels by now. But for whatever reason, he hasn't. I do believe that's where the Others went and that is also the origin of Smokey. When the mechanism that controls him cranks up you hear the air horn sound, mechanical sounds and then trees start blowing up from the ground as if pushed up by a lot of pressure. Then Smokey jets up from the holes and forms the smoke cloud. Yes, underground is where the action is.

Looking at the map I'd say there must be a stairway or elevator in one of the Barracks leading to the tunnels. Sayid said he checked them all, and he has the map. He either missed them or isn't talking.

Sayid said he checked them all, and he has the map. He either missed them or isn't talking.
Maybe he isn't talking in front of Juliet. He doesn't trust her and doesn't want her to know that he knows about the tunnels. I hope, I hope.

Maybe he isn't talking in front of Juliet. He doesn't trust her and doesn't want her to know that he knows about the tunnels. I hope, I hope.

I'll bet she does know though. Juliet said "Sayid's in one of those backyards down there" when she and Kate came back to the barracks. Even before she saw him.

Maybe he isn't talking in front of Juliet. He doesn't trust her and doesn't want her to know that he knows about the tunnels. I hope, I hope.

I believe that Sayid knows about the tunnels also but is keeping his mouth closed on the subject in front of Juliet and Jack. Sayid may feel that Jack has been "compromised" just as he suspected Michael had become. I think that Sayid will investigate the possibilities of the tunnels but I think that he is very weary of having Juliet come back to the camp. I think that he will be watching her very closely with a suspicious eye. I also think he will question her about all she knows and will only take so much as "truth". If his last f/b has any relevance though, I don't think he would torture her to get information out of her. I think that he will use other means...something that will persuade her to talk.

Perhaps Sayid is testing Juliet. He tells he they disappeared without a trace, knowing that they used the tunnels. When she doesn't volunteer the info of how they could get away without a trace he now knows that she is not on their side.

Sayid knows there are tunnels because its on the map. He's not dumb.

Why not go there? Well the only reason to go there now is to follow Locke. Locke is a volunteer. You're not going to stop him. He doesn't need rescued. So you just go back to camp.

So who was left behind? If Juliet knows of the tunnels then she could follow, but chooses not to. A better title may have been "Not Wanted" or "You can't play with us anymore". Sayid also knows of the tunnels, he chooses not to follow. Kate very likely knows because she saw the map, so she may be choosing too, because Jack says go back to the beach. Jack probably knows of the tunnels too. I think when he was going to the sub to go bye byes with Juliet he went through a tunnel to get under the fence.

Also if they know there are tunnels does this really seem important to them? If they really don't know where everyone went (not in the sense of tunnels, but destination) then they may be just uninterested in the tunnels.

What about the gas masks? Were these put on because they were getting ready to gas the "left behinds" or for their preparation to go into the heart of the Island?