Ok, is there something I'm missing here? Locke said the Others told him what she did and their not very forgiving. Well, Our Losties were the ones that were attacked all I can remember Kate ever doing is defending herself? I can't remember if she ever killed one of them? Was Locke referring to the Other forgiving her for Killing Wayne? What do they care? Is wayne part of Dharma, is her Mom? Why is she not worth "Forgiveness" and For What?:confused: . Someone please enlighten me.

My guess - killing Wayne - just because he was abusive didn't give her the right to kill him - I sort of agree with her mom that she did it for herself not for her mother - that it was selfish - THEN that one thing led her to a life of crime and getting her old boyfriend killed - her poor choices are what the others may not be forgiving of - and then there is that whole bank robbing thing and people getting shot just so she could get back the plane - and then there is the island stuff -

Agree, I think they're referring to her pre-island crimes. The Others have elected themselves judge and jury of the Losties' past and present behavior and have deemed some like Kate to be unworthy.

I have mixed feelings about Kate's reasons for killing her step dad. But this is just another instance of our individual perspectives. Kate's mom loved the guy for some strange reason, while Kate could only see the pain her mom suffered and wanted to end it once and for all. I have a feeling she was a pretty decent person before that and her killing her step dad was the catalyst into a life of more crime. Kind of like a vortex - once you're going down it's very hard to get out.

People have many choices for how to deal with situations like Kate's mom and dad (that was her real dad she killed, right?). Get the police involved, for one. Kate took the situation into her own hands. Either there's more to the story than we know -- for instance, Kate's dad was abusing Kate -- or Kate is not a good person, bordering on sociopathic.

[quote=Lost_in_CA;1472290]Agree, I think they're referring to her pre-island crimes. The Others have elected themselves judge and jury of the Losties' past and present behavior and have deemed some like Kate to be unworthy.

I guess this was the explaination I was looking for. It just struck me as odd they would use the word "forgive" when it came to Kate. I can understand the others seeing people as "good" or "bad" or "not able to understand" but, "forgive' kind of has a religous/spiritual tone to me. The others not forgiving Kate would be like me not forgiving someone who murdered someone I never met? It would be up to the victims family to forgive them not me.(did that make sense?) But your right they do seem to hold themselves in pretty high esteem. Maybe they feel Jacob is very God like to them, but I guess Jacob is a God who doesn't forgive?

No Wayne was not Kate's real dad, he was her stepdad - her real dad was in the military and we saw him in the same ep I think.

I understand what she did and I don't think it was selfish but obviously the others are very judgemental. I mean talk about the pot calling the kettle here...

Either there's more to the story than we know -- for instance, Kate's dad was abusing Kate -- or Kate is not a good person, bordering on sociopathic.

I hope this is the case, not because I would ever, ever wish that upon any child, but because it seems too cold-blooded a crime to commit based on the motive of ending the physical/emotional abuse of her mom. If she herself had been abused, particularly sexually abused, you could almost blame it on temporary insanity. If it was just because she hated that he was a part of her...oy.

Wayne was actually her real dad. Kate was upset when she found that out, because she'd always thought Sam was her real dad, not the step dad. It's explained in What Kate Did, I think.

No Wayne was not Kate's real dad, he was her stepdad - her real dad was in the military and we saw him in the same ep I think.

I understand what she did and I don't think it was selfish but obviously the others are very judgemental. I mean talk about the pot calling the kettle here...

Wayne was kate's real father. She had been told the military man was her real father, but when she put together an album, she realized he couldn't be her real father because he was in Korea when her mother was pregnant with her. Kate put two and two together and realized Wayne, who she was always told was her step-father was her biological father.

Ah ok, thanks I totally missed that - or forgot or something. Ok ok thanks for setting me straight.

Well it makes even more sense that she killed him then - he was making lewd comments towards her and I don't think it's unreasonable to assume he at least tried to abuse her. I know she said he didn't but I don't think she would ever admit that.

I'm not saying what she did was right but it's understandable.

Yeah, the weird thing is, though that when she talked to 'Wayne' through the feverish Sawyer, she said he looked at her and that was it, no hint of anything worse than that. And she claimed she killed him because of his blood more than the way he treated her mother etc. So that would support her claim to the Marshal that he never touched her. At this stage in the show anyways.

I don't condone what she did, but compared to the past lives of some of our folks, she seems to get a really bum deal. Sawyer, for example, shot a totally innocent man for revenge and was a conman. Pikky were thieves. Sayid... come on!

Why does Kate always get such disproportionate disapproval? Is there more to her story?

It's her greatest weakness--her guilt over the past three years of her life. And this is the theory I'm beginning to come up with:

Locke, Juliet, and Jack are playing Kate's weakness for all it's worth--because they've convinced themselves that what Ben and the Others are up to, despicable as they are, is for the greater good--no matter WHAT they have to say or do to get that greater good accomplished!

:eek: enough for you? Me, too! Wanna be proven wrong. Am more convinced than ever, after this eppy, that I am right.

Interesting theory... There are a few that hold a lot of guilt that can be taken advantage of, esp. Kate and Sayid. Seems like no one has caught on to the latter, if that holds true...

I keep having the feeling that there is more to what Kate did though. I've had since we saw the ep with that title. It just seems odd to me that the marshal is sooooooo out to get her just for that. She has no prior criminal record so I keep thinking there's more to it. Maybe Wayne is someone important or something. There's something....damn

It's her greatest weakness--her guilt over the past three years of her life. And this is the theory I'm beginning to come up with:

Locke, Juliet, and Jack are playing Kate's weakness for all it's worth--because they've convinced themselves that what Ben and the Others are up to, despicable as they are, is for the greater good--no matter WHAT they have to say or do to get that greater good accomplished!

:eek: enough for you? Me, too! Wanna be proven wrong. Am more convinced than ever, after this eppy, that I am right.


After the way Jack looked , or Didn't look at Kate and after what i've read here, I'm starting to belive you may be right. Actually Jack never said he forgave her or accepted her apology did he. I really felt bad for her in that scene.:frown:

I would like to see Sawyer kick some Jack ...you know what. The way he's treated her in the last eps is just not cool. She didn't know about his deal and she was genuinely trying to help him. What does she get from Jack...nada...shameful

I guess it's all a matter of personal point of view, but I've always found Kate's killing of Wayne to be the most shocking "crime" of all the backstories. I could understand it more if she had acted on the spur of the moment, but this was something she planned; she even took out an insurance policy on the house. And this episode shows that she has no insight at all about why her mother is horrified instead of grateful. What a nightmare for a mother to discover that the child she gave birth to is capable of an act as horrific as what Kate did.

I think the Others see things in Black and White, just like the backgammon peices. Killing someone, especially one of your own, makes you not worthy. I do see parallels in kate hurting her Mom as well as hurting Jack. In her Mom's case she felt she was totally justified and wouldn't let go of that by apologizing. I think her regret over that inspired her very touching apology to Jack. This time though she can see past her own motives to see what an effect her bad judgement has on those she cares about. What do you guys think, does Kate seem to regret killing Wayne?

And of course she can feel sorry for breaking Jack's heart if that's the case. Jack is really creeping me out these days, I find it really hard to tell what's going on in his head. He seems to me to be either shell-shocked, or he's really pissed off at Kate for sleeping with Sawyer and then totally sabatoging his and Juliette's plan to get away. Hard to tell since we are really only viewing Jack from Kate's perspective these days.

I wonder if anything will change for Kate now. In the flashback all her Mom wanted was for Kate to say she was sorry. Kate couldn't because she was so sure she was right in getting rid of Wayne. When Kate is talking to Jack, she realized that she's not always right -- maybe it hit her that she shouldn't stick her nose into other people's business? Anyway, she broke down and told Jack she was sorry. Was this Kate's big breakthrough? Will she be forgiven?

I wonder if anything will change for Kate now. In the flashback all her Mom wanted was for Kate to say she was sorry. Kate couldn't because she was so sure she was right in getting rid of Wayne. When Kate is talking to Jack, she realized that she's not always right -- maybe it hit her that she shouldn't stick her nose into other people's business? Anyway, she broke down and told Jack she was sorry. Was this Kate's big breakthrough? Will she be forgiven?

Ecxellent observattion: I think she finally integrated the remorse she had felt on some level after the meeting with her mom. It kind of all came together for her at once. It had to happen in it's own time, because my interpretation was that she was forgiven for what she did to Wayne in WKD, with the appearance of the horse, but she never truly admitted to herself that what she did to Wayne was not OK under any circumstances.

As for Jack's treatment of her, I'm befuddled. He is one weird dude lately. I'm sure the emotions of being forced to do the surgery, then think he was going home and the conflictions (relief, guilt)that arose around that, then now having to come to grips with starting from scratch on the beach are all a lot to deal with. But when he first saw Kate in the Game Room, he didn't seem all THAT mad that she came for him. The way he whispered in her ear that he'd come back for her. He seemed touched at that point that she risked her life for his. Then of course, the sub was destroyed. But that was LOCKE, not Kate. So really, isn't it Locke Jack should be directing his anger towards? I guess he's displacing it onto her. But then why doesn't he also seem angry at Sayid? How does he know it was mostly her idea to come after him? Locke and Sayid weren't strong-armed into coming with her.

I'm not happy with Jack lately, that much I can tell you. He's a little too sickenly sancitmonious. When will he ever have to apologize for something? Is it perhaps necessary on some level for someone who does such demanding work as nueurosurgery to be that egotistical?:shrug:

Well it makes even more sense that she killed him then - he was making lewd comments towards her and I don't think it's unreasonable to assume he at least tried to abuse her. I know she said he didn't but I don't think she would ever admit that.



I think it is unreasonable to assume that Wayne had abused Kate. We don't know. It''s simple as that. And even if he had, Kate picked a strange moment to decide to kill him . . . and commit insurance fraud at the same time.

I keep having the feeling that there is more to what Kate did though. I've had since we saw the ep with that title. It just seems odd to me that the marshal is sooooooo out to get her just for that. She has no prior criminal record so I keep thinking there's more to it. Maybe Wayne is someone important or something. There's something....damn


I don't think he was the 'ignorant redneck' we are being led to believe.

Don't forget the octogon box on the shelf in Diane and Wayne's house, as she's leading him to the bedroom in What Kate Did. That same box shows up in the hatch on the coffee table in the Swan...when Charlie and Hurley are listening to albums.

I think he was not only abusive to Diane...but probably to Kate...and might have even been connected to THEM.

As for Jack's treatment of her, I'm befuddled. He is one weird dude lately. I'm sure the emotions of being forced to do the surgery, then think he was going home and the conflictions (relief, guilt)that arose around that, then now having to come to grips with starting from scratch on the beach are all a lot to deal with. But when he first saw Kate in the Game Room, he didn't seem all THAT mad that she came for him. The way he whispered in her ear that he'd come back for her. He seemed touched at that point that she risked her life for his. Then of course, the sub was destroyed. But that was LOCKE, not Kate. So really, isn't it Locke Jack should be directing his anger towards? I guess he's displacing it onto her. But then why doesn't he also seem angry at Sayid? How does he know it was mostly her idea to come after him? Locke and Sayid weren't strong-armed into coming with her.


Was he directing anger toward her or was he just simply being dismissive? In my opinoin, he knows what the sobbing apology was all about and it wasn't about ruining his chance to go home and maybe Jack is finally just tired of Kate and her game, is feeling like crap from being gassed and the last thing he feels like dealing with is her classic weepy "I'm sorry Jack" please fall under my spell again and find me irresistable and cute and want to reach out and hug me and make me feel better. Gag, move on Kate. He's accepted you're with Sawyer, how about you do the same and quit jerking these two men around. I hope she finally got the message and just leaves the guy alone. She's become quite tiresome this season.

[quote=Lost_in_CA;1472290]Agree, I think they're referring to her pre-island crimes. The Others have elected themselves judge and jury of the Losties' past and present behavior and have deemed some like Kate to be unworthy.

I guess this was the explaination I was looking for. It just struck me as odd they would use the word "forgive" when it came to Kate. I can understand the others seeing people as "good" or "bad" or "not able to understand" but, "forgive' kind of has a religous/spiritual tone to me. The others not forgiving Kate would be like me not forgiving someone who murdered someone I never met? It would be up to the victims family to forgive them not me.(did that make sense?) But your right they do seem to hold themselves in pretty high esteem. Maybe they feel Jacob is very God like to them, but I guess Jacob is a God who doesn't forgive?

Out of everything that happened in the episode, it was the forgiveness line that bothered me the most. I thought the same thing you did. "Forgiving" was a very odd word to use in that statement and it most definitely implies a religious/spiritual thing, as well as something intimate. Usually when you forgive, you forgive someone who has hurt you or someone you love/care for/etc. To forgive, you must've been first hurt by the person you are forgiving. Yet they were clearly (IMO) referring to Kate's prior, off-island actions when Locke said that the Others told them what she did. Why would they have to forgive her about what she did to Wayne? I know that the Others appear to act as judge and jury, but I don't think that fits this situation. Judge and jury implies that one renders a "judgement" of guilty, not guilty, good, bad, right, wrong, etc. Forgiveness isn't part of that process. Forgiveness is something very different IMO. You can choose to forgive someone even if you think that they are a bad person. Forgiveness is something you do for yourself, not for someone else.

But what's more telling about the use of this very deliberate word is the fact that Ben once described "him" as a unforgiving man. This forgiveness thing relates to Him and the agenda of the Others, I think.

I agree with most of the comments here about the theme of last night's show and how it played out in Kate's flashback, vs. her last scene with Jack in which she apologized.

What's confusing me on this show, though, is what stance the writers are taking on the topic of redemption?

Obviously some themes of the show are: change, redemption, atoning for past "sins". With Sawyer last night, the word "amends" was used -- which is a concept of the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous.

But, to me, the morals on the show are a bit extreme. For instance, Ecko is killed by the smoke monster when he denounces his past sins as the result of making the best of what he was given in life.

And Locke sounded downright judgmental with Kate last night when he mentioned her past.

And then, describing the Others, Locke used the word "unforgiving".

So why are the forces on the island and the Others so darn severe in their judgment?

What are the writers saying here?

To me, it's a notion of perfection that we cannot live up to! What is required of us, as humans, to get past our former "sins" and become "good" people?

It seems like the show is saying we MUST FEEL BAD AND REPENT over our past mistakes. Ecko did not show remorse, but instead accepted that he did the best with what he had --- is this not an acceptable answer?

LOL. Sorry to be so deep, but I'm really trying to understand this super-theme that the LOST writers have been revealing to us slowly over the last few seasons.

Ideas on this??

I would like to see Sawyer kick some Jack ...you know what. The way he's treated her in the last eps is just not cool. She didn't know about his deal and she was genuinely trying to help him. What does she get from Jack...nada...shameful

What? No. Rewatch those episodes. Kate feels Jack and her have this connection. Jack does not. Jack gets blamed for being stalkery with his wife, but as Juliet reminded Kate, she and Jack did not have a relationship, so what's Kate's deal? I don't necessarily agree that Juliet is telling the truth about Jack, but I definitely think Kate is not a positive character and acts very strange.

Don

I agree with most of the comments here about the theme of last night's show and how it played out in Kate's flashback, vs. her last scene with Jack in which she apologized.

What's confusing me on this show, though, is what stance the writers are taking on the topic of redemption?

Obviously some themes of the show are: change, redemption, atoning for past "sins". With Sawyer last night, the word "amends" was used -- which is a concept of the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous.

But, to me, the morals on the show are a bit extreme. For instance, Ecko is killed by the smoke monster when he denounces his past sins as the result of making the best of what he was given in life.

And Locke sounded downright judgmental with Kate last night when he mentioned her past.

And then, describing the Others, Locke used the word "unforgiving".

So why are the forces on the island and the Others so darn severe in their judgment?

What are the writers saying here?

To me, it's a notion of perfection that we cannot live up to! What is required of us, as humans, to get past our former "sins" and become "good" people?

It seems like the show is saying we MUST FEEL BAD AND REPENT over our past mistakes. Ecko did not show remorse, but instead accepted that he did the best with what he had --- is this not an acceptable answer?

LOL. Sorry to be so deep, but I'm really trying to understand this super-theme that the LOST writers have been revealing to us slowly over the last few seasons.

Ideas on this??

I agree that there are deeper things going on in this show. From the beginning, many of us thought this show had to do with puragtory. So this really isn't anything new for this show.

However, I don't think last night's epi had to do with redemption. Redemption is something different than forgiveness. Redemption is something you do for and to yourself. You try to redeem yourself for your past sins. That's not the same as forgiveness. One can forgive someone who has not found redemption. Forgiveness is very personal and is done when you (the forgiver) need to move poast something, when you need to let something go.

As far as Locke's conversation with Kate, I don't think he was being judgemental. I think he was hurt and ticked at Kate. So he knows that Kate killed his father, Locke of all people would be able to understand how someone could be so hurt by his/her father to kill him. He's not judging what she did. He's hurt b/c he just spent however long pleading Kate's case to the Others, telling them what a good person she is, and then he finds out that she killed her father. He's embarassed and hurt that he just put himself out there for her.

It's hard to forgive someone when they have such a lack of remorse.

I...
What are the writers saying here?
...

Ideas on this??

I think that the writers are presenting us characters who have opinions. I know that when Sawyer read Ayn Rand a lot of people jumped to the conclusion that Sawyer was a positive character and that Ayn Rand represented the viewpoint of TPTB, but then this episode Sawyer completely rejected the Libertarian, live by yourself without people, kind of attitude and embraced doing things for others. I think a lot of these kinds of arguments are made based on jumping to conclusions awfully quickly.

I have major major issues with the way Jack's divorce and Sarah's infidelity was portrayed onscreen to make it seem like Jack was stalking his own wife. I disagree that one spouse can walk out of a marriage without explanation- I mean, you know, the law states you have to go to a judge for a divorce, you know? You're kind of required by law to explain what happened, though no longer required to name names. I think they portrayed a divorce like the breakup of a college relationship- very immature.

I also believe Kate's mother's line that "you can't help who you love" is high school immature in the extreme- OF COURSE YOU CAN! Ya have free will in this life, you know. Only a kid or childish adult would think that you meet "the one" and your life changes forever. I felt a more powerful line from the mother would have been:

1. I did not raise up a little girl to become a murderer.
2. All those years in Sunday School you learned that killing is a sin, what happened?

It was a lost opportunity on the writer's part.

So I definitely agree that there is this sense of moralizing or lack of moralizing on the part of TPTB. I think the audience "falls" for Kate, Sawyer and others without recognizing that both characters are pretty evil. From all we were shown last night and in What Kate Did, we PRESUME that Kate had reasons for hating Wayne, but her mother appears to have said, "Stop rationalizing it, what you did was wrong."

So Kate becomes a murderer. Sawyer becomes an absentee father and ruiner of people's lives. Neither of them are positive characters and both are pretty evil- sometimes even on the island! I read an interview with Josh Holloway last year where he said he was surprised how many people like Sawyer because he was an bad man.

I agree with most of the comments here about the theme of last night's show and how it played out in Kate's flashback, vs. her last scene with Jack in which she apologized.

What's confusing me on this show, though, is what stance the writers are taking on the topic of redemption?

Obviously some themes of the show are: change, redemption, atoning for past "sins". With Sawyer last night, the word "amends" was used -- which is a concept of the 12 Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous.

But, to me, the morals on the show are a bit extreme. For instance, Ecko is killed by the smoke monster when he denounces his past sins as the result of making the best of what he was given in life.

And Locke sounded downright judgmental with Kate last night when he mentioned her past.

And then, describing the Others, Locke used the word "unforgiving".

So why are the forces on the island and the Others so darn severe in their judgment?

What are the writers saying here?

To me, it's a notion of perfection that we cannot live up to! What is required of us, as humans, to get past our former "sins" and become "good" people?

It seems like the show is saying we MUST FEEL BAD AND REPENT over our past mistakes. Ecko did not show remorse, but instead accepted that he did the best with what he had --- is this not an acceptable answer?

LOL. Sorry to be so deep, but I'm really trying to understand this super-theme that the LOST writers have been revealing to us slowly over the last few seasons.

Ideas on this??

I think the theme is just about different people who have LOST their way and are using this experience to get back on the right path. I don't think it's about forgiveness from anyone other than yourself. What I can't figure out is how the creepy Others fit into the theme other than the people they recruited may have been LOST in their lives, which made them easy targets.

My guess - killing Wayne - just because he was abusive didn't give her the right to kill him - I sort of agree with her mom that she did it for herself not for her mother - that it was selfish - THEN that one thing led her to a life of crime and getting her old boyfriend killed - her poor choices are what the others may not be forgiving of - and then there is that whole bank robbing thing and people getting shot just so she could get back the plane - and then there is the island stuff -
Yeah, they don't say "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions" for nothing.

For what it's worth, I think this is probably the key question of the episode, which was overall one of the most confusing I've seen.

As someone else said, why would the Others need to forgive Kate? What did she do to them? I think if we knew the answer to that, we'd have a big piece of the whole puzzle.

I also believe Kate's mother's line that "you can't help who you love" is high school immature in the extreme- OF COURSE YOU CAN! Ya have free will in this life, you know. Only a kid or childish adult would think that you meet "the one" and your life changes forever. I felt a more powerful line from the mother would have been:

1. I did not raise up a little girl to become a murderer.
2. All those years in Sunday School you learned that killing is a sin, what happened?

It was a lost opportunity on the writer's part.



I don't think this is immature at all. I believe that when I met my wife 20 years ago, I found "the one" and my life changed forever. Does that make me immature? When you love someone, and have loved them for a long time, you can't just turn those feelings off. Love is not a rational thing. Sometimes we even love people that we shouldn't. What Kate's mom said was, IMO, pretty powerful just as it was. Your lines don't convey the raw emotion that a mother must feel in order to turn her back on her own child.

Nadroj, your lovely comment about your wife illustrates why I think the "morals" on the island are a bit Puritanical and severe.

For instance, let's look at Ecko: as a young boy he killed a man to save his brother. This led to a life of killing, involvement in drugs, and hurt to the brother he loved.

Some would say Ecko *did* do the best he could, given the circumstances he had. In other words, you can only play the hand you were dealt.

I thought Ecko's confession to the smoke monster was wise.

Not the smoke monster. Ecko's dead now.

Was Ecko Punished? Did Ecko *deserve* to die?

And this week's episode dealt with Kate's moral choices ....

Did Wayne *deserve* to die because of what he did to Kate? Wasn't Kate playing "God" by killing him? And then, when it was all said and done, Kate lost the love of her mother, which is really all she wanted anyway!!

The writers are totally tickling my brain cells on this theme.

If Kate is flawed because of her past -- not "good" -- then do the Others believe that it is not possible to start over? To apologize? To make amends? To wipe clean the mistakes you made before? To change?

It is also fascinating that the Others have prohibited the smoke monster from entering their barracks! I am assuming then that they are not "judged" by it, like Ecko was.

Finally, for being so morally judgmental and unforgiving, the Others sure have done some morally questionable things. Hanging Charlie? Whatever the heck they're doing to Claire's baby?

I can't wait till this all unfolds .... I'm quite confused about what's going on with the "good people" theme.

It is also fascinating that the Others have prohibited the smoke monster from entering their barracks! I am assuming then that they are not "judged" by it, like Ecko was. ----Lost_Dude




That is fascinating! This is backed up by the fact that Juliet has been there for 3 years and this seems to have been the first oppurtunity for the smoke monster to "read" her. It looked to me that those flashes were directed towards Juliet and not Kate.

I don't think this is immature at all. I believe that when I met my wife 20 years ago, I found "the one" and my life changed forever. Does that make me immature? When you love someone, and have loved them for a long time, you can't just turn those feelings off. Love is not a rational thing. Sometimes we even love people that we shouldn't. What Kate's mom said was, IMO, pretty powerful just as it was. Your lines don't convey the raw emotion that a mother must feel in order to turn her back on her own child.

Well, you can't choose who you love, but you can choose who you stay with and who you leave. I broke up with a guy years ago who I did love very much but we just did not bring out the best in each other. (He would have needed the Lord's help if he had ever hit me regardless of how much I loved him)
And the love of some guy should never over ride the love you have for your child. You can love him, but if he's a bad influence and physically abusive to you, than you need to do the right thing (especially for your child) and love that guy from afar. Unfortunately women tend to think with their emotions instead of their head. That's why abused women tend to stay with the guy "because they love them". If she loved herself and/or her daughter half as much, she would have dumped the bum. I didn't find her speech powerful, but rather weak, sad and scary.

Ok, is there something I'm missing here? Locke said the Others told him what she did and their not very forgiving. Well, Our Losties were the ones that were attacked all I can remember Kate ever doing is defending herself? I can't remember if she ever killed one of them? Was Locke referring to the Other forgiving her for Killing Wayne? What do they care? Is wayne part of Dharma, is her Mom? Why is she not worth "Forgiveness" and For What?:confused: . Someone please enlighten me.

Well, she did shoot and kill one or more Others when they were on their way to being captured at the end of season 2 IIRC.

The Others, and Smokie too maybe, seem to view things in a very black or white manner, which ties in very nicely with the backgammon peices, Locke's description of the game to Walt, and Adam and Eve's stones. I think they also mix in an element of living harmoniously with your group where the common good is paramount at the expense of personal freedoms, and to kill one of your own is unjustifiable no matter what the circumstances. For the Losties, freedom from attack, confinement and being free to do what they want seems to be more important, and sometimes killing people is justified.

I also keep getting a kick out of how judgemental the Others are of the Losties based upon the picture their documentation (hospital records, criminal record, high school transcripts etc.) paints. It's very easy to base an impression on a person and make a black/white judgement about a person when all you have is paper work. But we the viewers, and the survivors too, have deeper insight into the character's motives and why they made the choices they did...we see the many shades of grey in between and we are forgiving people. This also kind of fits in nicely with the Jack's Tattoo story, the Sheriff woman thought she new what Jack's tattoo meant, but she only knew what it said.

Getting back to living harmoniously, Kate was a really great example of what the Others are trying to distance themselves from and why they look down their noses at the Losties. She was like a terrified caged animal acting purely on instinct when she tried to attack Juliette with the pool cue, or when she was eating and sleeping on the floor, or when she attacked Juliette in a rage at the mention of Jack and ripped Juliettes arm out of it's socket. You don't see the Other's behaving that way but they are so burdened down by rules that they are stifled, but does appear to be a harmonious society. I'll admit I started feeling kind of judgemental towards Kate as well after this episode!

The other thing that really impressed me about this episode was the way the society is forming in the lost camp. There too the common good is taking precedence over self-interest as evidenced by the possibility of banishing Sawyer. Even though it was a ruse by Hurley, the idea of being banished from that group seemed like a really terrible fate and mirrored what was happening to Juliette and to a lesser extent Jack at the other end of the island.

a few comments:

(1) Wayne was Kate' *biological father*, not her "real" father. Her real father was the man who raised her and nurtured her.

(2) a poster said we now know why Kate's mother screamed. Does that mean when Kate visited her in the hospital? Is the assumption that the scream was carrying out on her threat to turn her in if she ever saw her again? Because her reaction to seeing Kate in the hospital seemed like she was scared to death, not like she was out for revenge!

(3) It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that the Others could breezily chain people up in caves and torture them, and hold people on an ilsand against their will, and kidnap a baby from her mother (Alex) etc etc but still find Kate unforgivable for her act of revenge against a man who aabused her and her mother.

I think the audience "falls" for Kate, Sawyer and others without recognizing that both characters are pretty evil. From all we were shown last night and in What Kate Did, we PRESUME that Kate had reasons for hating Wayne, but her mother appears to have said, "Stop rationalizing it, what you did was wrong."

So Kate becomes a murderer. Sawyer becomes an absentee father and ruiner of people's lives. Neither of them are positive characters and both are pretty evil- sometimes even on the island! I read an interview with Josh Holloway last year where he said he was surprised how many people like Sawyer because he was an bad man.

People like Sawyer and Kate - let's face it - because they're conventionally "hot."

I'm surprised Kate's shooting of Jason (in "Whatever the Case May Be", 1x12) hasn't gotten more consideration. Kate has been robbing banks with a gang, after all.

She did rob the bank but what no one remembers (it seems) is that she did NOT want anyone to get hurt...it was Jason's fault that he got shot...for that very reason.

...

I also keep getting a kick out of how judgemental the Others are of the Losties based upon the picture their documentation (hospital records, criminal record, high school transcripts etc.) paints. It's very easy to base an impression on a person and make a black/white judgement about a person when all you have is paper work. But we the viewers, and the survivors too, have deeper insight into the character's motives and why they made the choices they did...we see the many shades of grey in between and we are forgiving people. This also kind of fits in nicely with the Jack's Tattoo story, the Sheriff woman thought she new what Jack's tattoo meant, but she only knew what it said.
...

So... do we judge people in foreign governments or countries based on similar criteria? What about judging the guilty or innocent in closely watched TV trials? What about internet flame wars? Can we really know anything about anyone else's internal motivations good or bad?

If anyone has the free time there's a great movie called Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolfe, it's a little old-fashioned and stagey by 2007 standards, but it's really good. I won't spoil the ending, but the plot is essentially, what do you really know about someone else's marriage?

Don
100%
People like Sawyer and Kate - let's face it - because they're conventionally "hot."

I'm surprised Kate's shooting of Jason (in "Whatever the Case May Be", 1x12) hasn't gotten more consideration. Kate has been robbing banks with a gang, after all.

Oh, I know, I'm giving their fans a hard time here.

I think Josh is a great actor bringing real life to this character, but people are in some senses fooled by his charm into... confusing the likeable Josh Holloway with the cruel Sawyer. In some senses it's a play on the concept of the con. In another sense... there are a lot of bad things that can happen when good people trust bad people who are charming, whether they're con men or politicians.

I went through this period watching the DVDs where I liked Kate and then about the second or third episode of this season everything she did just caught up with me. the reality of the things she caused came crashing down.

Don

Well there's one simple answer to being confused by how the Others are acting:

THEY'RE WRONG.

They're just disillusioned wrong doers, confused into doing wrong for the "greater good" by their all seeing all powerful "god" Jacob. Who apparently is "him" and drinks that scotch drink or whatever it was (Cooper was also drinking this in Locke's episode - i guess he could just be paying homage to "him aswell, but it seems a little too convenient when he's on the island).

Anyway what happened to Kate choosing who she was going to be with in the first six episodes, looks like they screwed that over. They made her choose Sawyer, and then regretted the decision, so now they want her with Jack. They should have just bloody chose Jack in the first place and gotr this triangle over with.

Anyway in answer to someones question earlier about why Kate always gets the bum deal with not beign forgived, i think this is because:

1. She's one of the main MAIN characters and obviously great focus is placed on her stories.
2. She seems the character seeking the most forgiveness from other people. (From her mom, from Jack).

Her crime is arguably the worst out of all the Losties, even though she thought she did it for the right reasons. Didn't even act on impulse, planned it for months. Plus it was her own flesh and blood. I think Kate knows this, so she seeks forgiveness more than anyone else - and this is why she is scorned so much.

People have many choices for how to deal with situations like Kate's mom and dad (that was her real dad she killed, right?). Get the police involved, for one. Kate took the situation into her own hands. Either there's more to the story than we know -- for instance, Kate's dad was abusing Kate -- or Kate is not a good person, bordering on sociopathic.

That's what I liked about the show.

Take Kate and Sawyer. I think the way people are looking at each character has changed.

Poor old Kate has turned out to be quite a bad woman indeed. Her lack of maternal love/attention drove her to killing Wayne. Yeah, she's sociopathic alright! Ouch! Yeah, there's good in all of us, but Kate does deserve to go to prison and what's happening to her will either break or make her more mentally unstable.

Sawyer! See the look on his face when he saw all the good times people were having?! That was priceless. Poor old Sawyer, talk about liking being beat while your down all your life. Never really had a break or nice things done to him, discovers the art of giving, and not simply receiving. (Or just plain conning or stealing!!!) What a joy to see. Even if it was sappy, the Sawyer bits were juicy. I cant wait for his week to be over though, so he can get back to all the nicknames and what nots...!

I think Josh is a great actor bringing real life to this character, but people are in some senses fooled by his charm into... confusing the likeable Josh Holloway with the cruel Sawyer. In some senses it's a play on the concept of the con. In another sense... there are a lot of bad things that can happen when good people trust bad people who are charming, whether they're con men or politicians.

I went through this period watching the DVDs where I liked Kate and then about the second or third episode of this season everything she did just caught up with me. the reality of the things she caused came crashing down.


I really agree with this, people confuse the actor Josh Holloway with Sawyer. The actor is extremely good looking to most, and is really charming, plus he has *dimples* (*HURLS). Now i really like the actor, but i think, that if LOST had casted an uglier actor, who was much less charming than Josh, then people wouldn't take so nicely to him. They'd see him as an evil manipulative man, on a conquest for money and power.

The one "nice" thing he has done in his flashbacks is put the money he gained from prison into his daughters account. People eat this up, see Josh's dimples, and think wow Sawyer is great - they seem to forget that he lied AND cheated his way out of prison, totally screwed over an apparent buddy (that he just used and cosied up too, to get more money). That guy probably got an extended sentance after they found that money aswell, confirming he had stole it. Sawyer just totally screwed him over. He's just made his daughter really happy at the expense of another individual who is rotting in prison because he thought he could confide in a friend. The warden made a great emphasis on this point, oh but noone listens to him. I thought that was a major point in the episode that alot of people missed.

Like Sawyer said, he's a complex guy.

I agree about the Kate thing aswell, same thing happened to me this season, although it took a little longer for me to realise (like this episode). Kate's crime is definitely the worst, and i realise there are some truly bad people in the camp. No matter how hot they may be.

.... a poster said we now know why Kate's mother screamed. Does that mean when Kate visited her in the hospital? Is the assumption that the scream was carrying out on her threat to turn her in if she ever saw her again? Because her reaction to seeing Kate in the hospital seemed like she was scared to death, not like she was out for revenge!
That really jumped out at me when her mom said that... it was as if the creative team was trying to plug in the explanation for the scream... but.. it just didn't quite work -- unless Kate saw her mom again.. after this. The scream in the hospital was fear (like she was seeing a dead person) - not the promised scream of I'm gonna turn you in.. I do hope this gets re-addressed at some point to show that her mom really was afraid for whatever reason.


(3) It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that the Others could breezily chain people up in caves and torture them, and hold people on an island against their will, and kidnap a baby from her mother (Alex) etc etc but still find Kate unforgivable for her act of revenge against a man who abused her and her mother.

Not only that.. but who the heck are they to even be granted the power to forgive... or why would anyone care if they had or didn't have their forgiveness. It just doesn't make sense to me either. Thankfully, I'm very patient and I really hope all of these things eventually fall into place.

I think Kate's motto is "The road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions".
She's the romantic who believes the rules of the society are based on love and goodness (hence the Austen part)

Love is not a rational thing. Sometimes we even love people that we shouldn't. What Kate's mom said was, IMO, pretty powerful just as it was. Your lines don't convey the raw emotion that a mother must feel in order to turn her back on her own child.

I love your point about love....feeling love outside of yourself for someone else is powerful and you don't choose it, it just happens........however it is understood that we feel this love for our children......furthermore for a mother to turn her own child in is devastating and goes agains the natural grain of life (Dianne was obviously and rightly so, devastated by the murder of Wayne)....I have always felt for Kate as she must have feared for her mother's life...and I have often felt great distress that Dianne didn't realise this and sacrifice her love for Wayne and help her daughter....however Kate was a straight A student and had not been in any trouble prior to killing Wayne (doesn't exactly fit with an abused child, yet Kate suddenly at 24 felt her actions justified)......

Personally even though Kates action were planned it was still an impulvive action (she made a decision and didn't question her judgement and acted on this)....just like her breaking into the bank with Jason (planned but impulsive)....resulting in her having to protect the bank manager by disabling Jason....

Kate is struggling to forgive herself....she murdered her own father (and thought she was right) then finds out that her mother didn't appreciate her extreme actions and as such she lost her...Yet Kate has proven herself to be a tender, caring, passionate, loving, kind, brave young woman (on and off island)......its quite a conundrum she finds herself in.....Kate doesn't respect the woman she is since killing Wayne, even though her actions since have proven that what she did was an abberation in her life.

Perhaps the others judging her is a reflection of her own internal turmoil....when she forgives herself and feels deep remorse for what she has done, then the others will forgive her????.....(this episode revealed that she is getting closer to understanding that all her decisions, though heartfelt and seemingly right, may be very wrong).....

Not only that.. but who the heck are they to even be granted the power to forgive... or why would anyone care if they had or didn't have their forgiveness. It just doesn't make sense to me either. Thankfully, I'm very patient and I really hope all of these things eventually fall into place.

I was thinking the same thing walking home, but it's the Other's party and they can judge if they want too :) I also like how Mikhail put it, it wasn't that they were good or bad, just that they were "Flawed". Like their bad life experiences left them damaged or not fully developed. I think a most of us at least can understand why Kate and Sawyer did the things they did and why they are the way they are, even if we don't condone their behaviour. Plus, at least in Sawyer's case, he has flashes of emotions or behaviours where he reaches beyond his own self interest so we have hope for him yet.

I keep on thinking of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs)

"Maslow's hierarchy of needs is often depicted as a pyramid consisting of five levels: the four lower levels are grouped together as deficiency needs associated with physiological needs, while the top level is termed growth needs associated with psychological needs. While deficiency needs must be met, growth needs are continually shaping behaviour. The basic concept is that the higher needs in this hierarchy only come into focus once all the needs that are lower down in the pyramid are mainly or entirely satisfied. Once an individual has moved past a level, those needs will no longer be prioritized. However, if a lower set of needs is continually unmet for an extended period of time, the individual will temporarily re-prioritize those needs - dropping down to that level until those lower needs are reasonably satisfied again. Innate growth forces constantly create upward movement in the hierarchy unless basic needs remain unmet indefinitely."

I keep on thinking of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs)


arhhhh....how appropriate....the human road to "self actualisation"...beginning with the basic human need for survival (like the losties have been thrust into)....love the challenge of this theory.....and so encompassed in the lives and characters of Lost

Oh, I know, I'm giving their fans a hard time here.

I think Josh is a great actor bringing real life to this character, but people are in some senses fooled by his charm into... confusing the likeable Josh Holloway with the cruel Sawyer. In some senses it's a play on the concept of the con. In another sense... there are a lot of bad things that can happen when good people trust bad people who are charming, whether they're con men or politicians.

I went through this period watching the DVDs where I liked Kate and then about the second or third episode of this season everything she did just caught up with me. the reality of the things she caused came crashing down.

Don

Hi, Don. Actually, Sawyer (not the actor; I don't know anything about him) is likeable. He wouldn't be a good con man otherwise. Also, on the beach, were he not so funny in a bad-boy-pouty way, he'd probably have been banished for real.

However, it does bother me (although I think it's depressingly characteristic of audiences) to overlook cruelty in "attractive" characters, and ignore the goodness of heart of "unattractive" ones. If character can be judged by how one acts towards / thinks of the most helpless and innocent beings one encounters, then Sawyer definitely has some problems - that I think his "cuteness" overshadows. I'm thinking of in particular the frog-crushing incident (not only cruel to Hurley but fatal to the frog), and playing games when people were looking for Shannon's asthma inhaler.

Re: Kate. The reason the bank-robbing thing bothers me is that for one thing, just because she wounded Jason to "save him" doesn't mean we know the complete back story on the bank robbing. It's a dangerous game -not only illegal, but putting everyone at risk. What if a child cried, or a woman screamed, and the gang (or even Kate) panicked? It's one thing to injure someone in a car accident - another thing to deliberately set out on a life of crime and put everyone you come in contact with at risk. This IMO doesn't get taken into account when her history is considered - because she does that cute little "pout" thing with her lower lip, and manages to get men to treat her with great consideration.

That really jumped out at me when her mom said that... it was as if the creative team was trying to plug in the explanation for the scream... but.. it just didn't quite work -- unless Kate saw her mom again.. after this. The scream in the hospital was fear (like she was seeing a dead person) - not the promised scream of I'm gonna turn you in.. I do hope this gets re-addressed at some point to show that her mom really was afraid for whatever reason.



Not only that.. but who the heck are they to even be granted the power to forgive... or why would anyone care if they had or didn't have their forgiveness. It just doesn't make sense to me either. Thankfully, I'm very patient and I really hope all of these things eventually fall into place.

HA! That is SO well put!

Re: Kate. The reason the bank-robbing thing bothers me is that for one thing, just because she wounded Jason to "save him" doesn't mean we know the complete back story on the bank robbing. It's a dangerous game -not only illegal, but putting everyone at risk. What if a child cried, or a woman screamed, and the gang (or even Kate) panicked?

I totally agree....it was impulsive, one tracked, not thought out (for all her planning) and dangerous....driven by her own need.....very very dangerous....no wonder she is slow to forgive herself

I still think though that there are very human aspects encompassed within her character that challenge all of us as viewers (as do all the characters) within our everyday reactions and actions (small as they may be/seem in comparison)

I still think though that there are very human aspects encompassed within her character that challenge all of us as viewers (as do all the characters) within our everyday reactions and actions (small as they may be/seem in comparison)

I agree. She is kind to Hurley and that seems to be a kind of "litmus test" for one's character, in the story.

However, it does bother me (although I think it's depressingly characteristic of audiences) to overlook cruelty in "attractive" characters, and ignore the goodness of heart of "unattractive" ones. If character can be judged by how one acts towards / thinks of the most helpless and innocent beings one encounters, then Sawyer definitely has some problems - that I think his "cuteness" overshadows. I'm thinking of in particular the frog-crushing incident (not only cruel to Hurley but fatal to the frog), and playing games when people were looking for Shannon's asthma inhaler.

Yes Sawyer did do some pretty bad things but he has done some redeeming ones as well. He decided against the con with the little boy, he set up an account for little Clementine, he tried to make nice even after he found out Hurley conned him, his kiss for Kate when she they were busting rocks. I'm sure there are a few more. Anyway these are not enough to say - hey, he's a good guy but I think that it shows that he is trying and his little digs at people just reflect his own lack of self-esteem... I know a lot of people hated him at the beginning and are warming to him now. I don't think they are overlooking the bad things but are seeing the good things coming out a little.

Re: Kate. The reason the bank-robbing thing bothers me is that for one thing, just because she wounded Jason to "save him" doesn't mean we know the complete back story on the bank robbing. It's a dangerous game -not only illegal, but putting everyone at risk. What if a child cried, or a woman screamed, and the gang (or even Kate) panicked?

I agree with this part. I think that although Kate is impulsive and acts irrationally, she is still always trying to help or protect the people that end up involved with her. IMO, that is why that stuff gets overlooked.

Yes Sawyer did do some pretty bad things but he has done some redeeming ones as well.

I won't deny that he has done some brave and valiant things as well as some unselfish acts. I never thought he got enough "love" or "credit" for killing the polar bear.

One of the points of LOST (IMO anyway) is that no one is hopelessly "irredeemable." Sawyer's moving up the ladder, that's for sure - even if most of his better deeds now are more "because he has to" or "because he got caught" than genuinely from goodness of heart.

The critical "turning point" for Sawyer, I predict, will be when he is genuinely kind to Hurley - not because he's been "bribed" or disciplined into it, but because he sincerely wants to be. Maybe in Season 7 ... ;)