She seems pretty distracted by Jack's concern with Juliet. It was interesting to see she and Sawyer embrace upon her return...I was curious to see how their first exchange would go down once she got back to the beach.

She seems pretty distracted by Jack's concern with Juliet. It was interesting to see she and Sawyer embrace upon her return...I was curious to see how their first exchange would go down once she got back to the beach.

It was interesting to see she and Sawyer embrace? Did she already return or did I miss part of the episode or is that a spoiler? Haha sorry I'm a little confused.

I'm not sure if she will still want to be involved with Sawyer. She seemed to want to try to work things out before she left. I'd assume she'd still be willing if he is. She definetly cares about Sawyer a lot. But then she does care for Jack as well. I think her distraction with Jack's concern for Juliet is partly because of her feelings for him and partly because of her lack of trust for Juliet.
I'd pull for her and Sawyer though.

I'm still routing for Jate! :biggrin:

Definitely she'll want to be with Sawyer...Skate forever. I think that embrace was very telling - it seems like she went for him right away. Yay!!

I would like to see Sawyer kick some Jack butt for the way he's been treating her...probably won't happen but a girl can dream.

Yeah like in the epi where she was kidnapped by the others (too tired to remember title) and Jack was pissed and Sawyer was like, Hey man she was just trying to help, and he was all protective of her. I love a guy who protects me! God I can't even write coherently. Must...get...sleep.

I think she's still confused about what she wants. Most likely she thinks she wants Jack (especially now that Juliet seems interested), but is still drawn to Sawyer because he loves her without condition. Time will tell I guess as to whether she's ready to settle down with one or the other. Or neither. ;)

Yes. Kate slept with him for a reason and it wasn't because she thought he was going to die. She loves both men, but is in love with Sawyer.

Someone had posted this before about how it would be great if Kate went off on her own for a bit and just stayed away from both Jack and Sawyer. At this point in time, I would have to agree. She's been so emotionally demoralized, she needs to take care of herself first and forget those two. The only problem with that is now that Smokie has resurfaced, finding a semi-safe place on the island is next to impossible. I would love it if she did a self -imposed exile, the way Sayid did after torturing Sawyer. I feel even if she moved down the beach away from the rest of the Losties would do her a world of good. Kate needs to be kind(er) to herself and should the writers feel that she shouldn't be with either of them, then I would be okay with that, also

I think the bigger question should be, "Will Sawyer still want to be involved with Kate". In my opinion, this flitting between two men has caused a lot of problems and a lot of pain for everyone involved and it's time that both men put their foot down and it would appear Jack already has so now it's time to see if Sawyer wants to continue to be a pawn in Kate's indecisive game. Personally, I hope he sends her packing because I agree that the girl needs to spend some time alone and get her head together and if she truly loves either one of them approach the lucky/unlucky guy (matter of perspective) and just be honest about it.

Jack and Juliet are getting closer. No doubt Kate will get jealous. Then this will lead to Sawyer and Kate getting closer.

Then we can all debate whether this is because of jealousy/pity/revenge/love.

Awesome, it will be the mini season all over again! :drowsy:

Skate and Jacket for me. I want to see everybody happy and those are the best match-ups.

There will be a lot of tension between Jack and Sawyer, since Jack is bringing Juliet back. After all, while Juliet was bringing Jack sandwiches, she was tazering Sawyer and holding a gun to Kate's head, making them haul rocks all day. They've had very different experiences with her.

As for Kate, I really hope she will turn back to Sawyer. Honestly, things may go swimmingly since Sawyer's adopting a new attitude now-- heck, he might even apologize to Kate. But this is TV and it's all about conflict, so the odds are slim.

I really don't care about the future couplings, but why is it that viewers seem to think that Jack only sees Juliet as the bringer of sandwiches? Jack has witnessed just how cold and diabolical this woman can be and he's witnessed her softer side just as Sawyer has and now he's stuck with trying to figure out if there is a decent person trapped in there some place.

Sawyer's hatred of anything "Other" is completely understandible, but this particular "Other" saved his life so he's going to have to settle down until they figure out what Juliet's true agenda is.

Kate will get with Sawyer because she thinks it will make Jack jealous and then he'll pursue her, it's what a lot of girls do.

And yes, girls know we're crazy for doing things like that.

I think the bigger question should be, "Will Sawyer still want to be involved with Kate". In my opinion, this flitting between two men has caused a lot of problems and a lot of pain for everyone involved and it's time that both men put their foot down and it would appear Jack already has so now it's time to see if Sawyer wants to continue to be a pawn in Kate's indecisive game. Personally, I hope he sends her packing because I agree that the girl needs to spend some time alone and get her head together and if she truly loves either one of them approach the lucky/unlucky guy (matter of perspective) and just be honest about it.

Agreed! Never thought of it that way, but you worded that perfectly.

I don't usually respond to these shipper threads, but if you just rewatch the pilot you'll see Kate and Jack are meant to be with each other. It's written in the stars, hell if you just rewatch all of season 1 you'll Kate longingly look up to Jack. Sure her and Sawyer have their moments but it's Kate and Jack all the way through. Even in the finale he switches the dynamite packs, puts her dynamite in his pack so she's not in any danger. He's risked his own life for her several times.

Plus everyone knows season 1 was the best season so that has to be right. Sure you could put Jack and Juliet together, and Kate and Sawyer together and they'd be "happy". But would they really be happy?

I know for sure Kate and Jack wouldn't be.

Agreed 'brother'.

Kate will get with Sawyer because she thinks it will make Jack jealous and then he'll pursue her, it's what a lot of girls do.

And yes, girls know we're crazy for doing things like that.

Ah, none of the girls I know do things like that and I would never. That just makes girls sound really bad...yeesh. I would say there is a very small minority that does things like that and it's pretty sick.

I don't usually respond to these shipper threads, but if you just rewatch the pilot you'll see Kate and Jack are meant to be with each other. It's written in the stars, hell if you just rewatch all of season 1 you'll Kate longingly look up to Jack. Sure her and Sawyer have their moments but it's Kate and Jack all the way through. Even in the finale he switches the dynamite packs, puts her dynamite in his pack so she's not in any danger. He's risked his own life for her several times.

Plus everyone knows season 1 was the best season so that has to be right. Sure you could put Jack and Juliet together, and Kate and Sawyer together and they'd be "happy". But would they really be happy?

I know for sure Kate and Jack wouldn't be.

Feelings were very different in the pilot and Jack was the first person Kate happened upon that talked to her. Yes Jack has done a few protective things but he has always treated her like a child and that doesn't make for a healthy relationship. Sawyer doesn't do that, he lets her make her own mistakes. There are so many more reasons for Skate but it's all been said before.

In the last few Kate/Jack interactions we see Jack being a compete - we'll say jerk - to Kate - letting her apologize for something she shouldn't need to apologize for and it clearly hurt her a lot. Kate does what a lot of women are guilty of, apologizing all the time and feeling a lot of guilt. I agree she needs to get over those issues but I don't necessarily think she has to be alone to do that. I think Sawyer could help her a lot with that. Jack seems intent on restricting any growth in her character so out with Jack. :biggrin:

Even in the finale he switches the dynamite packs, puts her dynamite in his pack so she's not in any danger. He's risked his own life for her several times.

My brother would do that for me without thinking about it. I'm betting that wouldn't mean anything more than that he loves me and wouldn't want me to be hurt.


I know for sure Kate and Jack wouldn't be.
You know for sure?? :msn-wink:

After tonight's epi, I believe that Kate and Sawyer will get together. They will completely fall for each other, and Sawyer will do anything for her. They will be the new Rose and Bernard. THEN Kate will find out Sawyer is Cassidy's con man. THAT will make for some good TV!

Actually that's a good point - I was thinking about the Cassidy connection and Kate knowing her name so all it will take is Sawyer mentioning her name and Kate will know. Should be interesting and I think they will be together and she will be much more invested when she finds out. Can't wait to see what happens...eeeeeee :eek2:

After tonight's epi, I believe that Kate and Sawyer will get together. They will completely fall for each other, and Sawyer will do anything for her. They will be the new Rose and Bernard. THEN Kate will find out Sawyer is Cassidy's con man. THAT will make for some good TV!

I just thought of this one. Needed to add it.....

What if Kate becomes pregnant with Sawyers baby BEFORE she finds out that Sawyer is Cassidy's con man!

Oh man I hope not, that's enough with the pregnancy stuff already...I just don't want it to become all cheesy with mommies everywhere. No offence to mommies but haven't we got enough pregnancies already??

I'm Ok with Kate and Sawyer being together if that's what the writers decide (and considering how many skaters there are, I can understand if they chose to go that way to appease the fans) but I swear I'll throw up if "Jacket" even get close enough for a kiss. Juliet is a spy, or at the very least, a spineless girl who would do anything to get what she wants. I don't trust her worth a dang and if Jack falls for the very woman who played mind games with him while he was captive, I'll be disgusted... not just with the plot, but with the characters. So far, I've really liked Jack and I've always thought he was one step ahead of everybody. But if he really has no idea Juliet is bad news, then my repsect for the guy will go down to zero. I'm just hoping he's playing it cool and has the upper hand in secret. :undecide:

Hey, there's no reason why we can't have a little Jacket and Skate play out before the ultimate Jate happens. I agree with desmondslost... Kate and Jack are supposed to be together, but Jack has to grow up first and Kate has to learn to quit beating herself up. There's hopefully at least 2 more seasons of Lost, can't we have both??? (I prefer Skate, myself, for a bunch of reasons, but Jate is inevitable.)

MB

I don't usually respond to these shipper threads, but if you just rewatch the pilot you'll see Kate and Jack are meant to be with each other. It's written in the stars, hell if you just rewatch all of season 1 you'll Kate longingly look up to Jack. Sure her and Sawyer have their moments but it's Kate and Jack all the way through. Even in the finale he switches the dynamite packs, puts her dynamite in his pack so she's not in any danger. He's risked his own life for her several times.

I found Jack's unilateral switching of the dynamite to his pack very offensive. They drew lots fair and square and Kate had the right to carry that cargo. Jack going behind her back like that makes her less than equal. It's easy to call it "protective" on the surface, but it's actually paternalistic...even Chauvinistic for a man to do that to a woman. It makes her less than equal and it's exactly the attitude that kept women off active duty in police work, fire-fighting, the military and any other job with an element of danger until just the last couple of decades.

I deeply resented TPTB for having Kate run in that episode. That's exactly the kind of "cheat" that fans sometimes talk about when they say other characters get diminished just to build Jack up. They made him look like he'd been right to go behind her back, which was their way of getting around the fact that it was actually an insult to Kate for him to have taken the dynamite from her pack in the first place.

Just thought I'd give you the other POV on that. :biggrin:

Hey, there's no reason why we can't have a little Jacket and Skate play out before the ultimate Jate happens. I agree with desmondslost... Kate and Jack are supposed to be together, but Jack has to grow up first and Kate has to learn to quit beating herself up. There's hopefully at least 2 more seasons of Lost, can't we have both??? (I prefer Skate, myself, for a bunch of reasons, but Jate is inevitable.)

Gawd, I hope there's no more Jate...Jack has proven himself to be pretty spineless lately and I do see him falling for Juliet because of that. His decision to leave the island and abandon his flock is further proof that he is no leader and he's not as good as he seems. Boohoo, so he saw Kate and Sawyer together - that means he should abandon everyone to their fate and let the others do with them what they will. (Hmmm seems more like something Sawyer would have done). More proof is the fact that he trusts Ben in the first place. Ben is the one who played mind games with him to get him to operate. He blatantly admitted this to Jack after Jack saw his X-rays. He came right out and said it!!! Then he is ready to get shipped off at home and blammo no more sub then gets gassed while the others take off...Uh hello....Yet Jack continues to blindly listen to Juliet with no suspicion that she's not being up front??

Kate would have more chance of learning to not beat herself up without Jack around to let her do it. I don't think Jate is inevitable at all...

Agreed Dez, I hate to see female characters treated like that...good points.

I think that Kate will seek Sawyer out because Jack hurt her when he asked about Juliet. Jack's still licking his Kate wounds,....

Kate will use Sawyer to make Jack jealous, and Jack will retaliate with his own show with Juliet,...however,...Jack may just find himself falling for Juliet. I doubt Juliet has any pure motives regarding any of the Losties,....even Jack.

The Others are manipulative,...they are motivated by something we do not know yet, but I think we would all agree that it's something big.

I predict the beach will be heating up,...and it may not go the way I want it to go,..Jack back with Kate. :(

Gawd, I hope there's no more Jate...Jack has proven himself to be pretty spineless lately and I do see him falling for Juliet because of that. His decision to leave the island and abandon his flock is further proof that he is no leader and he's not as good as he seems.

I believe what Jack told Kate was that it was their best chance to get help. I think Jack thought he was bringing back help. He didn't know that the sub had no way of returning. And his angry look at Locke when the sub blows up proves he thought this was a way off the island. Ping pong and boar roasts aren't going to get anyone rescued. And Jack also specificially told Kate he'd be back for her. And the one thing Jack has been shown to do repeatedly for 2 1/2 seasons -- keep his word. In the words of Puff Daddy Christian "You're all about commitment Jack".



Boohoo, so he saw Kate and Sawyer together - that means he should abandon everyone to their fate and let the others do with them what they will. (Hmmm seems more like something Sawyer would have done).

Jack didn't abandon everyone to their fate. He's looking for a way to get folks rescued. And Sawyer has accepted that he'll never get off of the LOST island, as evidenced by his giving up of the diamonds to Nikki and Paulo's graves.

More proof is the fact that he trusts Ben in the first place. Ben is the one who played mind games with him to get him to operate. He blatantly admitted this to Jack after Jack saw his X-rays. He came right out and said it!!! Then he is ready to get shipped off at home and blammo no more sub then gets gassed while the others take off...Uh hello....

Your proof is on shaky ground. I don't think Jack trusts Ben at all. He knew he was being listened to and watched in Othersville. He tried to get Kate to leave right away because he knew it was still dangerous there for her. Jack's a poker player, and he's playing the game with Ben. I go back to Jack's comment in the hydra, "you think I trust you people?" I think he doesn't. There isn't enough proof yet for me to think he believes in the Others or their agenda. And I don't think Jack wanted to be gassed, if the destruction in his little house was anything to go by. And there is an old saying, keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. Jack may also be using Juliet, he knows from Tom that Juliet and Ben "have history" and Jack has seen Ben and Juliet interact. Juliet could be Jack's intended weapon against Ben.


Yet Jack continues to blindly listen to Juliet with no suspicion that she's not being up front??

Wow, what scene was that? If you are referring to the last scene in LB, hmmm? Because if I remember correctly, Jack told Sayid and Kate that Juliet would be going back to camp with them. Does that mean he is blindly listening to her? Imo, thats a big stretch of that scene. I believe he listened to Juliet say she was okay, when Jack asked her if she was alright. LOL. If anyone was fooled by Juliet in this episode it was Kate.

We have the full-on square when we get back to the beach. May it last no longer than a few episodes for all of our sakes. :frown:

I hope that if Kate runs to Sawyer "romantically or sexually" because she is jealous of Jack and Juliet growing closer (friendship or whatever), that Sawyer kicks Kate out so fast her head will spin. I believe it's possible Kate is about to break heart #2 on the island. I believe She's going to use Sawyer as a substitute for Jack, because she doesn't believe Jack will forgive her for the stupid mistake she made; sleeping with Sawyer because she thought he was going to die. And one of these days Sawyer is going to utter Cassidy's name, and Kate is going to know that he is loved by another woman, and is the father of Cassidy's baby. Little Clementine. I'm not so sure Sawyer will want to be involved with Kate when he realizes she indirectly sent him to prison.

It's so amusing how every thread can somehow manage to be turned into a Jack Bash fest. :rolleyes:

Gawd, I hope there's no more Jate...Jack has proven himself to be pretty spineless lately and I do see him falling for Juliet because of that. His decision to leave the island and abandon his flock is further proof that he is no leader and he's not as good as he seems. Boohoo, so he saw Kate and Sawyer together - that means he should abandon everyone to their fate and let the others do with them what they will.

Spineless? Jack saw the woman he fell in love with have sex with a man who, like it or not, has been pretty horrible to Jack and most of the Losties. Rather than immediately washing his hands of Kate and Sawyer like most people (including Sawyer) would have, he risked his life to make sure they got to safety. It's arguable whether or not he was actually risking his life, but he THOUGHT he was. That is hardly spineless.

I'm no shipper, but it's been obvious to me from the start that Kate is Jack's world on the island. She was the only person he had made a connection with, and when he saw her with Sawyer he lost his reason for being on the island. Understandably, that led him to take the first opportunity he had to get outta dodge. Leaders are rarely appreciated and he's no different...he doesn't owe anyone anything. He's been almost obsessively protective of Kate and the rest of the Losties since day one, and I'm glad to see him finally flip the middle finger to them (and Kate) since he's gotten little in return for the sacrifices he's made.

I believe what Jack told Kate was that it was their best chance to get help. I think Jack thought he was bringing back help. He didn't know that the sub had no way of returning. And his angry look at Locke when the sub blows up proves he thought this was a way off the island. Ping pong and boar roasts aren't going to get anyone rescued. And Jack also specificially told Kate he'd be back for her. And the one thing Jack has been shown to do repeatedly for 2 1/2 seasons -- keep his word. In the words of Puff Daddy Christian "You're all about commitment Jack".


Hmmm so somehow he is going to be able to find the island when no one else can...they haven't even seen a plane fly overhead since they arrived. I realize he thinks he can get help and come back but obviously Ben doesn't want anyone coming to island so put two and two together. Besides which, he told get to get out because he knew it was still dangerous but he's going to leave her there with the others??

Jack didn't abandon everyone to their fate. He's looking for a way to get folks rescued. And Sawyer has accepted that he'll never get off of the LOST island, as evidenced by his giving up of the diamonds to Nikki and Paulo's graves.

See above...

Your proof is on shaky ground. I don't think Jack trusts Ben at all. He knew he was being listened to and watched in Othersville. He tried to get Kate to leave right away because he knew it was still dangerous there for her. Jack's a poker player, and he's playing the game with Ben. I go back to Jack's comment in the hydra, "you think I trust you people?" I think he doesn't. There isn't enough proof yet for me to think he believes in the Others or their agenda. And I don't think Jack wanted to be gassed, if the destruction in his little house was anything to go by. And there is an old saying, keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. Jack may also be using Juliet, he knows from Tom that Juliet and Ben "have history" and Jack has seen Ben and Juliet interact. Juliet could be Jack's intended weapon against Ben.

Ok see above again...So Jack doesn't trust Ben and tries to get Kate to leave because it's dangerous for her but then beleives Ben when he says he will let them go as soon as Jack is gone. Am I missing something here? He trusts that Ben will let him go and let his friends go back to the beach??? But he doesn't trust Ben at all. No offence but you're proof sounds shakier than mine. If this is the love that some people think it is then why is he willing to just leave her in the hands of the others. Just because the person you love doesn't love you back doesn't mean you abandon them.

Wow, what scene was that? If you are referring to the last scene in LB, hmmm? Because if I remember correctly, Jack told Sayid and Kate that Juliet would be going back to camp with them. Does that mean he is blindly listening to her? Imo, thats a big stretch of that scene. I believe he listened to Juliet say she was okay, when Jack asked her if she was alright. LOL. If anyone was fooled by Juliet in this episode it was Kate.

He's been blindly listening to Juliet the whole time...he doesn't even question the fact that she's been left behind because he obviously trusts her.

Spineless? Jack saw the woman he fell in love with have sex with a man who, like it or not, has been pretty horrible to Jack and most of the Losties. Rather than immediately washing his hands of Kate and Sawyer like most people (including Sawyer) would have, he risked his life to make sure they got to safety. It's arguable whether or not he was actually risking his life, but he THOUGHT he was. That is hardly spineless.


You will have a hard time convincing me that he was in love with Kate, and if he was/is - he sure doesn't act like it. I am not only referring to the disgusting way he's treated her lately but previously as well. Treating someone like a child is not akin to being in love with them. It's not the first time he's left Kate begging for forgiveness after she tried to help and do what she thought was best. As for the risking his life, he wasn't risking his life, he was risking Ben's life and he risked Juliet's life but his own??

What is spineless is the way he doesn't take any responsibility for the things that happen to him. He spent most of his life blaming his dad for his flaws...then when things went wrong with Sara - he said that it was his fault but then spent all of his time following her and again ended up blaming his father. On the island he hasn't spent any time making Kate feel like a person - instead he's distrusted her, treated her like a child, and abandoned her. Wow that's love alright. The parallel with Kate's mother was supposed to show that.

Sawyer may not be perfect but he's never treated Kate this way. He's always treated her like an equal and he's been protective yes, but not in the you sit here and stay way that Jack has.

I think if Kate does turn to Sawyer it won't be because Jack is a jerk, it may be that she finally realizes her feelings for him. I would hate to see his heart broken.

Of course this is all MHO :cool:

Hmmm so somehow he is going to be able to find the island when no one else can...they haven't even seen a plane fly overhead since they arrived.


Firstly, if your referring to Jack not being able to return to the island based on what Mikhail and Ben said, Jack doesn't know this.
Secondly there was a food drop onto the island, that would mean a plane flew overhead, at least to Jack's thinking. And Jack has an advantage over any random plane that might have flown overhead, he knows the island EXISTS. You don't think if some guy whose been missing for three months and probably presumed dead turns up alive and well, the authorities wouldn't say 'Gee, we might want to try and find this island that has a bunch of plane survivors' living on it???


He's been blindly listening to Juliet the whole time...he doesn't even question the fact that she's been left behind because he obviously trusts her.

How are you getting that from one scene. Jack could be playing Juliet for all we know. He might want Sayid to interrogate Juliet. Who knows?
Blindly listening to Juliet this whole time?. Only since SIASL, and Jack's only shared about three scenes with Juliet since that episode, have we seen any softening in Jack's attitude to Juliet. Was he blindly listening to her when he demanded to find a way out of the hydra, ignoring her protests that there wasn't one? Did he blindly listen to her when she asked him to kill Ben in surgery and make it look like an accident? Did he blindly listen to her (initially at least) when she asked him to take a look at Ben's sutures?


As for the risking his life, he wasn't risking his life, he was risking Ben's life and he risked Juliet's life but his own??

Yeah I think it was blatantly obvious he was risking his own life when he saved Kate and Sawyer. That was clearly demonstrated in his conversation with Tom in SIASL. He believed they were leading him to be killed. Jack knew they had no problem with attempting to kill Charlie or Sawyer. Jack held their leader's life for ransom. That is worse than anything Sawyer's done and the hanging of Charlie was completely uncalled for. Why would Jack expect any different treatment?
He risked Juliet's life? Maybe he hadn't been listening to her blindly enough?


What is spineless is the way he doesn't take any responsibility for the things that happen to him

If anything he takes too much responsibility. Look at the guilt he felt over what happened to the Marshall? despite the fact it was Sawyer who shot him and missed. Look at the guilt he felt over Boone? despite the fact it was Locke and his 'cliffs' who put Boone in that position. And I think even Sawyer recognised, Jack's guilt and regret about his father when he told him about how Christian wanted to say sorry, when you kick a dog enough times it thinks it has done something to deserve it'. Jack seems to take responsibility for everyone else. If only everyone on that island was as 'spineless'.


On the island he hasn't spent any time making Kate feel like a person - instead he's distrusted her, treated her like a child, and abandoned her.

That's a pretty sweeping statement. I mean it's so sweeping it actually makes me think of how Kate treats Sawyer a lot of the time in their 'relationship'. The glares, the insults, demanding apologies, not even saying goodbye when she went on a dangerous mission to save Jack? Maybe she learnt that behaviour from Jack?
I think people could find a lot of examples that would support the very opposite of what you say when it comes to Jack and Kate.


Sawyer may not be perfect but he's never treated Kate this way. He's always treated her like an equal and he's been protective yes, but not in the you sit here and stay way that Jack has.

People always use that as an example of why Kate should be with Sawyer rather than Jack. However I don't ever remember Kate saying this to Jack, 'You've gotten so good at telling me what to do, I can't even think for myself anymore'. She did say it to Sawyer though.

I swear I'll throw up if "Jacket" even get close enough for a kiss. Juliet is a spy, or at the very least, a spineless girl who would do anything to get what she wants. I don't trust her worth a dang and if Jack falls for the very woman who played mind games with him while he was captive, I'll be disgusted... not just with the plot, but with the characters. So far, I've really liked Jack and I've always thought he was one step ahead of everybody. But if he really has no idea Juliet is bad news, then my repsect for the guy will go down to zero. I'm just hoping he's playing it cool and has the upper hand in secret. :undecide:

Agree No.1 . Jack has always set an example of being honest, trustworthy, a leader, most offen the Stubborn Man. But if he really gives into Juliet this easy then I'll def go mad.


Oh man I hope not, that's enough with the pregnancy stuff already...I just don't want it to become all cheesy with mommies everywhere. No offence to mommies but haven't we got enough pregnancies already??

Agreed No2. We have enough ( Claire and Sun ) No need to make a Triangle of Mummies.It will most definetly make it Cheesy and ruin the whole decency.


desmondslosthairstraighteners[/b] ;1476830]
I don't usually respond to these shipper threads, but if you just rewatch the pilot you'll see Kate and Jack are meant to be with each other. It's written in the stars, hell if you just rewatch all of season 1 you'll Kate longingly look up to Jack. Sure her and Sawyer have their moments but it's Kate and Jack all the way through. Even in the finale he switches the dynamite packs, puts her dynamite in his pack so she's not in any danger. He's risked his own life for her several times.

Agreed No.3 Jack surely has feelings for this woman and wants to protect her. In fact yes he sometimes treats her like a child but when the time comes he treats her as an equal too. Isnt this what we want from men? There are times we want to be their little girls, or their woman, even sometimes their boss and Mummy.
"I have to know you got my Back" . Kate replies "Yes I got your Back." When Kate is a partner. No matter what she did he trusted her. (until the 3rd season I guess)
The dinamite thing and the little search party for Micheal when Kate sneeked behind and got caught. Thats when he got mad at her. ( one of the times)

If the writers are gonna make a Kate Sawyer couple, then fine nothing can stop them. But I know Jack needs someone like Kate, and Kate needs someone like Jack. They are like them Black and White stones. ( the Urim and Thummim )

People always use that as an example of why Kate should be with Sawyer rather than Jack. However I don't ever remember Kate saying this to Jack, 'You've gotten so good at telling me what to do, I can't even think for myself anymore'. She did say it to Sawyer though.

I don't remember that being said to Sawyer...sorry not trying to be difficult here but I thought she said that to Jack. Can you post the context in which it was said. It does make a difference.

As for the rest, there's probably not much point debating it as we have our different opinions about who has treated who like what. I didn't say that Kate had treated Sawyer perfectly, nor that Sawyer had been perfect either. I do think they have more chance than Kate and Jack. Jack told Kate to stay behind and then when she didn't (who would after being told like that - not a child remember) he just walked away and wouldn't listen to her apologies. She was trying to help. People keep saying that he trusted her even after he found out about the marshal and the marshal said not to trust her. I disagree with this, he still interacted with her and spent time with her but I don't see him every really trusting her especially after she used him to get the toy plane. Why would she have to use him to get to the toy plane - maybe she thought he wouldn't understand and he didn't. Wow, they are destined to be lovers. I just don't see anything in this relationship showing two people who are in love. Jack treats her more like a sibling than someone who is in love with her.

Kate and Sawyer's most recent interactions show two people who do care about each other but don't know how to deal with other. Hasn't anyone on here ever had a fight with a partner...I mean really - when you fight with someone you sometimes say things you don't mean. She has made it clear previously that she has feelings for Sawyer and she also said that she couldn't love him because he reminded her of Wayne. I think if Kate has some growth and can start accepting that she doesn't have to apologize for everything and she can't help everyone because there's a greater cost to herself she will have a real chance of accepting Sawyer. If you want more on this go to the outkasts thread. It's said rather well there and better than I can say it.

As for Jack - ok I will stop bashing him after this I promise. I am just tired of Jack and his self-righteousness. I realize he was never told that no one can see the island but he knows about Dharma and that the food drops were from them. I'm just trying to point out the inconsistencies here with the trust. He trusts that Ben will send him home and that he will let Kate go...but he doesn't trust him at the same time?? He's playing Juliet?? Come on, there's no evidence of this - he was going to go home with her remember?? All of his recent interactions with Juliet seem to point to him trusting her. I said it was my opinion so I could be wrong and he's fooling everyone but what good would that do. Why not explain to Kate quickly that he doesn't trust her but they have to take her to camp?? Instead he sat there and let Kate take the blame for him not leaving...when it was Locke who took away his chance. Why not shoot Sayid a quick look that says "I don't trust her but we have no choice". The way he asked if she was alright also points to Jack trusting her and feeling a connection there. It was pretty much a screw you to Kate at that point.

Oh and one more thing about Jack and his responsibilities...yes he felt bad about not being able to save Boone but as I remember he also freaked at Locke. He took responsibility for not being able to save him medically but he didn't take responsibility for killing him. That is about the only thing I've seen him accept as his responsibility is the life of his patients. He did blame his flaws on his father - we saw him do it. He also went freaky weird on Sara after the break up even though he said it was his fault. Maybe Kate is taking the place of his father on the island just like Jack seems to be taking the place of Kate's mother.
100%
Agreed No.3 Jack surely has feelings for this woman and wants to protect her. In fact yes he sometimes treats her like a child but when the time comes he treats her as an equal too. Isnt this what we want from men? There are times we want to be their little girls, or their woman, even sometimes their boss and Mummy.

No, sorry but this kind of thing is so chauvinistic, I can't even stand it. I would have reacted the same way Kate did to being told I couldn't go. I don't ever want to be any of the things listed above - just me, an equal.

On the other hand a little bit of protectiveness like Sawyer after the others gave her back to the Mike search party - where he took off her cuffs and stood near her is different. He wasn't treating her like a child but trying to provide some comfort even thought she was still trying to gain Jack approval. I don't think Jack has ever really treated her like an equal, can someone provide an example of this???

I don't remember that being said to Sawyer...sorry not trying to be difficult here but I thought she said that to Jack. Can you post the context in which it was said. It does make a difference.



She did say it to Sawyer on their trek back to their beach camp from Hydra. But this comment was based on what, his treating her like that for a 24 hour period? Jack's been treating her that way for 3 1/2 months and Sawyer does it for a day and he's the one that gets ripped?

Like my husband says (not hiding any irritation in his voice), Kate doesn't know what she wants.

If anything he takes too much responsibility. Look at the guilt he felt over what happened to the Marshall? despite the fact it was Sawyer who shot him and missed. Look at the guilt he felt over Boone? despite the fact it was Locke and his 'cliffs' who put Boone in that position. And I think even Sawyer recognised, Jack's guilt and regret about his father when he told him about how Christian wanted to say sorry, when you kick a dog enough times it thinks it has done something to deserve it'. Jack seems to take responsibility for everyone else. If only everyone on that island was as 'spineless'.




That's a pretty sweeping statement. I mean it's so sweeping it actually makes me think of how Kate treats Sawyer a lot of the time in their 'relationship'. The glares, the insults, demanding apologies, not even saying goodbye when she went on a dangerous mission to save Jack? Maybe she learnt that behaviour from Jack?
I think people could find a lot of examples that would support the very opposite of what you say when it comes to Jack and Kate.


People always use that as an example of why Kate should be with Sawyer rather than Jack. However I don't ever remember Kate saying this to Jack, 'You've gotten so good at telling me what to do, I can't even think for myself anymore'. She did say it to Sawyer though.

The whole post was amazing. And you have pointed out so well. Wanted to give you an applause for all these. With you to the end.

On the other hand a little bit of protectiveness like Sawyer after the others gave her back to the Mike search party - where he took off her cuffs and stood near her is different. He wasn't treating her like a child but trying to provide some comfort even thought she was still trying to gain Jack approval. I don't think Jack has ever really treated her like an equal, can someone provide an example of this???

The only time I can think of, is when he couldn't go with her into the jungle and he said, "If you see anything--anything--run." (I loved the way he said that) And she smiled, liked, "Yes! He likes me!" (I thought that was cute). Anyway, I digress, back to being nostalgic about the first season...

But that instance, he couldn't go with her b/c he had to stay, I believe to watch over the Marshall if memory serves me. And that was in the beginning when he didn't know her that well. After that, he started to behave more, using the word a pp used, paternalistically.

SAWYER: Let's get back to camp. [Kate is annoyed but doesn't respond] Well, are you coming, or not?

KATE: Should I walk beside you, or ten paces behind you? You've gotten so good at telling me what to do, I can't think for myself anymore

An excerpt from Stranger In a Strange Land. That doesn't scream off any feeling of equality. The honeymoon period didn't last long.


People keep saying that he trusted her even after he found out about the marshal and the marshal said not to trust her. I disagree with this, he still interacted with her and spent time with her but I don't see him every really trusting her especially after she used him to get the toy plane.

I don't think Jack has ever really treated her like an equal, can someone provide an example of this???

When Jack thought he was going to have a Locke problem, who did he go to?, who did he ask to have his back? Kate. Jack's never put himself out there with that level of trust to anyone else on the island imo. That was well after the toy plane incident too.

Jack treats her more like a sibling than someone who is in love with her.

I really hope Jack never ever shoves his tongue down Claire's throat. Just saying. :biggrin:



Oh and one more thing about Jack and his responsibilities...yes he felt bad about not being able to save Boone but as I remember he also freaked at Locke. He took responsibility for not being able to save him medically but he didn't take responsibility for killing him. That is about the only thing I've seen him accept as his responsibility is the life of his patients. He did blame his flaws on his father - we saw him do it. He also went freaky weird on Sara after the break up even though he said it was his fault. Maybe Kate is taking the place of his father on the island just like Jack seems to be taking the place of Kate's mother.


Well why should he take responsibility for killing Boone? He didn't. So he shouldn't.
What flaws did he blame on his father? I don't mean to be difficult but I don't remeber that. I remember Jack accusing Christian of having an affair with his wife, but not actually blaming Christian for his own 'flaws'.
And because he went 'weird' on Sarah doesn't mean he wasn't taking responsibility for what happened. He knew the thing with Sarah was his fault, even though I don't remember Jack being the one who had an affair. His behaviour stemmed from his commitment, his inability to let things go.

Yes, the comment to Sawyer about thinking for herself was to me a sign that they were headed toward coupledom. They hooked up, and now TPTB are giving them some drama, and that was part of it. I thought it showed they cared about each other, because they were actually dealing with an issue, instead of ignoring each other or hiding their feelings. I loved watching Sawyer say, "I'm talking about you....and me."

And as far as the scene in THP, when Kate ignores Jack's demand that she stay behind, I never thought of this before now, but hey, isn't he at fault that she got caught because he demanded that she didn't come with them? She was by herself and got caught, he caused this by outcasting her. And geez, did any of them really think she would stay behind?

I'm also looking at their previous relationships, in the fbs. Jack with Sarah...a doctor and his wife who he married more out of guilt and responsibility than love. He worked too hard and ignored her and her needs. When they broke up he acted crazy, and dominating. And Sawyer with Cassidy....a con-man who shared his thieving life with a woman who was smart enough to 'figure him out'. And he f***ed it up on purpose because of his conning. Kept people hating him.

Those are the histories of these men, and I think they have parallels to their relationships with Kate. Both would clearly need to overcome their past obstacles to redeem themselves and work it out with Kate.

As for Kate, she destroyed her relationship with the 'good' doctor Tom, and was passionately drawn to a life of crime. By passionately, I mean her desires got the best of her...I mean, she robbed a bank and killed 2 (3?) men in the process to get a toy plane back...and she kept on the run by hurting a lot of people. I could see her 'redemption' as going either way: back to the good doctor, or enveloping herself in the world of not-necessarily-crime-but-at-least-passion with Sawyer..

When Jack thought he was going to have a Locke problem, who did he go to?, who did he ask to have his back? Kate. Jack's never put himself out there with that level of trust to anyone else on the island imo. That was well after the toy plane incident too.

Wasn't she the only other person there during that scene?



I really hope Jack never ever shoves his tongue down Claire's throat. Just saying. :biggrin:



me too!

I knew I shouldn't have said anything...

SAWYER: Let's get back to camp. [Kate is annoyed but doesn't respond] Well, are you coming, or not?

KATE: Should I walk beside you, or ten paces behind you? You've gotten so good at telling me what to do, I can't think for myself anymore

An excerpt from Stranger In a Strange Land. That doesn't scream off any feeling of equality. The honeymoon period didn't last long.

Thank you, this is why I say context is important. At that point she was upset about not going back for Jack (feeling guilty perhaps) among other things. I don't remember Sawyer actually treating her in a way that deserved this comment. He told her they couldn't go back for Jack and he was right and had good reasoning for this. Like I said Kate hasn't behaved perfectly. And I agree with alwaysandforeverlost that Jack should have had this comment directed at him a few times.

When Jack thought he was going to have a Locke problem, who did he go to?, who did he ask to have his back? Kate. Jack's never put himself out there with that level of trust to anyone else on the island imo. That was well after the toy plane incident too.

Alright I admit, you got me there...I had forgotten about that. So he showed some trust there but did he trust her when she wanted to go in the hatch with Locke?? Did he trust that she was an equal and maybe an asset to the Mike search party??

I think we could go around and around with most of these and provide examples for each point of view.

Using the last few eps as an example I think that Jack has treated this person he is supposedly in love with pretty shabbily. She came back to save him after all and what does he do?? Regardless of whether she broke his heart or not she doesn't deserve that. Jack saw how they were treating Sawyer and Kate and in the last few eps he's made it clear that he doesn't care. Loving someone should mean you don't turn your back on them no matter what.

I really hope Jack never ever shoves his tongue down Claire's throat. Just saying.

She kissed him - granted he didn't pull away but it doesn't mean he's in love with her and I'm sure you know I'm refering to his behaviour in general.

Well why should he take responsibility for killing Boone? He didn't. So he shouldn't.


I didn't say he should - it was mentioned that he did and I'm saying he didn't really.

What flaws did he blame on his father?

Back in a previous flashback - he may not have come out and said it but it was obvious. His father was an a-hole but he could never seem to get over that.

You will have a hard time convincing me that he was in love with Kate, and if he was/is - he sure doesn't act like it. I am not only referring to the disgusting way he's treated her lately but previously as well. Treating someone like a child is not akin to being in love with them. It's not the first time he's left Kate begging for forgiveness after she tried to help and do what she thought was best. As for the risking his life, he wasn't risking his life, he was risking Ben's life and he risked Juliet's life but his own??

What is spineless is the way he doesn't take any responsibility for the things that happen to him. He spent most of his life blaming his dad for his flaws...then when things went wrong with Sara - he said that it was his fault but then spent all of his time following her and again ended up blaming his father. On the island he hasn't spent any time making Kate feel like a person - instead he's distrusted her, treated her like a child, and abandoned her. Wow that's love alright. The parallel with Kate's mother was supposed to show that.

Sawyer may not be perfect but he's never treated Kate this way. He's always treated her like an equal and he's been protective yes, but not in the you sit here and stay way that Jack has.

I think if Kate does turn to Sawyer it won't be because Jack is a jerk, it may be that she finally realizes her feelings for him. I would hate to see his heart broke





:undecide: Juliet broke Jack while he was in the Hydra. He finally learned to let go of Sara emotionally. This was a big step for Jack and I believe this parallels his letting go of Kate; putting her happinness with Sawyer over his (his perception) and bargaining for that. I think he actually believed they were going to kill him, thus ATOTC, if you've read the novel. This doesn't mean that his resolve to protect was broken, though.

Again, sharing information and communication is a very steep learning curve for the Losties.

Having been emotionally raked over the coals with Sara, Jack is being very guarded with his emotions, as some others have posted. He has feelings for Kate, but wasn't about to wear his emotions on his sleeves again only to get trampled on. The scene in the Hydra between he and Kate was full of emotion on his face, but he realized they were using her. He was angry with the Others for doing so, as shown that he kept looking at the cameras in the tank. Again, not sharing info with Kate about the cameras.

If I remember correctly, Kate used Jack to get the keys for the Halliburton case by digging up the marshall and caught her lying. He wasn't happy about being used. Was he spineless then when he called her on it, or was he spineless because he wouldn't listen to her excuse? Was he spineless later when he forced her to finally explain what meaning did the contents have for her? After she finally relented about the toy airplane, I think he gave space between them so he could also process what he heard. Kate didn't actually act in a mature manner with re:to this scene, either.

Again, in the Hunting Party, Kate disobeyed Jack by following. In his spineless way, he again, was trying to protect her by forbidding her to accompany them. Yes, he was angry because she endangered herself and compromised the plan. Kate needs to take responsibilities for her actions, also, and when Sawyer told her he would have done the same thing , it did not, by any means perpetuate that sense of responsibility. In his spineless way, Jack has been attempting to help Kate take responsibility for her actions by not letting her off too easily the way Sawyer does.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Sawyer outed Kate in Exodus by telling Sun, Jin, Michael, et. al what she was: a murderer because she wanted HIS place on the raft. That was great proctection from Sawyer, looking out for Kate. Jack kept that a secret from the rest of the Losties w/the exception of Hurley and Sawyer. Locke wasn't even privy to that info until Hurley inadvertenly blurted it out in Exodus. Again, was that spineless?

The parallel with Kate's mother in LB, however callous and misguided it was, was that Kate needed to take responsibilities for her actions, which she finally realizes by apologizing to Jack. Could it be too little to late? That remains to be seen.

I could continue, but the crux of the matter is that they all have been given a new lease on life on the island and we're shown that not all will have an easy time with it; that they take different paths and yes, some will falter, but I would like to remain optimistic in that the writers will do justice to them.

My apologies for digressing.

Namaste.

Kate is just a bad girl who will never have the right guy. She is doomed to have bad boys in her life because that is what she draws to. Sawyerfor sex. Jack for support. It is all plain to see.....

However I am blind....

Kate and Sawyer have an uncomfortable reunion and then Kate gets jealous over Juliet. Ever wonder whyher name is Juliet.... Where is her Romeo - Maybe JACK!

The parallel with Kate's mother in LB, however callous and misguided it was, was that Kate needed to take responsibilities for her actions, which she finally realizes by apologizing to Jack. Could it be too little to late? That remains to be seen.

Ok what?? She should apologize for trying to rescue him?? I don't understand where people get this...So she should have just turned her back on him?? She didn't know about his deal with the others, so how is she to blame for this?? Please explain...

Ok I take back the spineless comment - gawd. I kinda meant in the last little while, I thought I made that clear but I guess not. I was referring to lately in his interactions with Juliet and Ben. He's either being sucked fully into their mind games or he's got some weird loner plan.

As for her mother, so you're saying that mom did the right thing?? Let's not take into account the years of abuse that she was made to suffer because her mother chose Wayne over her daughter. Think about the psychological effect this would have. Wayne deserved what he got IMO.

Unfortunately it's a common theme with women to apologize for everything regardless of whether or not it's their fault. I see this with Kate a lot and it's time for her to stop running and stop apologizing for things that are her right to do like rescuing someone who seemed to be in trouble.

As for the search party?? I'm sorry Kate wasn't allowed to go?? Are you kidding me with your support of this. Of course she went, I would be incredibly insulted to be told I couldn't go. Ya I think that was kinda spineless - Kate has been on every expedition up until then an all of a sudden it's mister protector Jack saving her?? Give me a break, that's the most chauvinistic thing I've ever heard. She's good at tracking and can use a gun but oh you stay here little girl - it's dangerous.

One more thing - you say raked over the coals by Sara...where did you get this impression? Yes, Sara had an affair but it didn't rake Jack over the coals - if I remember correctly he almost had one of his own and he fully admitted that he had been absent from their marriage for a long time. He had his reasons for marrying Sara but I don't think she was the love of his life.

This is a fascinating thread. I might be wrong but it seems in general the guys are on Jack's side and he gals are on Sawyer's side. As a guy this surprises me after the way Sawyer treated Cassidy. And I don't get what disgusting things Jack has done to Kate these last few episodes. Jack acts guarded with his emotions anyways but when you are being watched you are even more guarded. And imo I think Jack knows Juliete's presence is another form of surveillance. Jack saves people and Kate runs. Before Jate there will be more saving and running.

This isn't actually about Jack or Sawyer, it's about Kate. Right now I don't think it matters at all what either guy says or does Kate needs to have a serious talk with herself. She's bouncing around like a rubber ball.

Ok I take back the spineless comment - gawd. I kinda meant in the last little while, I thought I made that clear but I guess not. I was referring to lately in his interactions with Juliet and Ben. He's either being sucked fully into their mind games or he's got some weird loner plan.

I think most people on the boards think Jack has been anything but spineless this season or in any other season.

It still amazes me the amount of Jack hate and bashing that exists in some corners of the LOST world. How can someone spend so much negative emotion on a t.v. character?? It is interesting to me that hating a character, and making them look bad, is perceived to make a certain other character appear in a better light, and better suited for Kate.

I like what Josh Holloway said in the most recent LOST magazine. Sawyer's good for the weekend. Jack's the keeper. LOL. :)

I believe it was Jack in the Hydra who said "You think I trust you people?" and then again, he told Juliet in SIASL that they would find a way off the island to work together against Ben. Not spineless behavior. Nor was it spineless when he thought he was sacrificing his life (and did put his life at risk) to get Kate and Sawyer set free. It isn't spineless, not when he is seeing first hand what he is up against with the Others, and even with Locke. Perhaps, you should consider that Jack, who beat the conman at Poker, has an ace up his sleeve, and is using Juliet. And what evidence at all do you have that his plan, if he has one, is weird? Other than your obvious dislike of Jack?

As for her mother, so you're saying that mom did the right thing?? Let's not take into account the years of abuse that she was made to suffer because her mother chose Wayne over her daughter. Think about the psychological effect this would have. Wayne deserved what he got IMO.

I don't think Kate's mother did the right thing. I don't think Kate did the right thing. Murder is never acceptable. Is that what they teach in school these days? But redemption is possible. That is what LOST is all about.


Unfortunately it's a common theme with women to apologize for everything regardless of whether or not it's their fault. I see this with Kate a lot and it's time for her to stop running and stop apologizing for things that are her right to do like rescuing someone who seemed to be in trouble.


I think Jack knows that Kate's life was again at risk when she showed up to rescue him. I also think he was being forthright when he told Ben he wouldn't leave if Sayid and Kate were not freed. I don't think Jack said anything about Kate not being capable of mounting a rescue. He's trusted her in any number of situations. I think Jack admires Kate's athleticism and determination and strength. He trusted her to deliver Claire's baby, to hike to the black rock, to have his back, to be with him on the SOS hike, and he wanted to tell her about Michael in LTDA.

I think in LB we saw growth in Kate that she was able to apologize to Jack for doing something with a selfish motive in mind. She needed Jack back because she loves him. Whereas, in the flashback Kate couldn't apologize to her mother for killing Wayne.

It would have been great if Jack had accepted Kate's apology right there and then, but then we wouldn't have the angst and all the other forthcoming square :frown: we are going to get on the beach. LOL.



As for the search party?? I'm sorry Kate wasn't allowed to go?? Are you kidding me with your support of this. Of course she went, I would be incredibly insulted to be told I couldn't go. Ya I think that was kinda spineless - Kate has been on every expedition up until then an all of a sudden it's mister protector Jack saving her?? Give me a break, that's the most chauvinistic thing I've ever heard. She's good at tracking and can use a gun but oh you stay here little girl - it's dangerous.


That wasn't about Jack being spineless and not thinking Kate wasn't capable. That was Jack being emotional and not able to deal with what he was feeling about Kate and about Sawyer right then. He had just seen Kate feed Sawyer the pill. She had just kissed him and they had both been blown away by what that kiss felt like to them. He'd heard Sawyer mumble "I Love Her". Jack needed distance to get his head clear. Jack had a bad case of green-eyed monster, and he wanted to focus on getting Michael back, not what was going on with him, Kate and Sawyer.



One more thing - you say raked over the coals by Sara...where did you get this impression? Yes, Sara had an affair but it didn't rake Jack over the coals - if I remember correctly he almost had one of his own and he fully admitted that he had been absent from their marriage for a long time. He had his reasons for marrying Sara but I don't think she was the love of his life.


Sarah was about as cold and as nasty to Jack as someone can be when they went through the divorce. And yet in the end, he asked Juliet "is she happy?' He realized that if he couldn't make her happy, he still wanted that for her.



Back to the subject of the thread at hand. I think Kate is going to "use" Sawyer or manipulate him (or con him - everyone else seems to be able to LOL) when she gets jealous over Juliet having her paws on Jack. This will I think be part of the lesson Sawyer has to learn on the island since he has "used" and manipulated women for his chosen career. Including the mother of his little baby Clementine. So yes, imo, Kate will still be involved with Sawyer. It will likely not be the way Sawyer wants her to be involved with him.

It still amazes me the amount of Jack hate and bashing that exists in some corners of the LOST world. How can someone spend so much negative emotion on a t.v. character?? It is interesting to me that hating a character, and making them look bad, is perceived to make a certain other character appear in a better light, and better suited for Kate.

Ok relax, I am just stating an opinion. I don't go around all day thinking about how much I hate Jack and make it the focus of my life. It's just a forum after all. I don't actually hate Jack, I just find him a boring and lately not so likeable character (remember Hurley's comment about bedside manner?) I am kinda sick of people talking about how great and heroic Jack is when he is obviously as flawed as anyone else on the island (hell, in life let's face it). I am also not saying that Kate is without any fault in her actions, however I don't think she is as bad as some think. I do think her motivations are (in her mind at least) to help other people.

I believe it was Jack in the Hydra who said "You think I trust you people?" and then again, he told Juliet in SIASL that they would find a way off the island to work together against Ben. Not spineless behavior. Nor was it spineless when he thought he was sacrificing his life (and did put his life at risk) to get Kate and Sawyer set free. It isn't spineless, not when he is seeing first hand what he is up against with the Others, and even with Locke. Perhaps, you should consider that Jack, who beat the conman at Poker, has an ace up his sleeve, and is using Juliet. And what evidence at all do you have that his plan, if he has one, is weird? Other than your obvious dislike of Jack?

I'll clarify again when I said recently - I meant very recently as in sitting there while Kate pours out her apology and saying nothing except "Is Juliet here" or whatever he said. I just don't see that as heroic or even decent behaviour.

I don't think Kate's mother did the right thing. I don't think Kate did the right thing. Murder is never acceptable. Is that what they teach in school these days? But redemption is possible. That is what LOST is all about.

Ok so we're on the same page mostly here. I didn't say murder was right, I said Wayne got what he deserved. There is a difference. Kate was not right in what she said but at the time maybe she thought it was all she could do to get this man away from her mother. I do think her motivations were all to protect her mother.

I think Jack knows that Kate's life was again at risk when she showed up to rescue him. I also think he was being forthright when he told Ben he wouldn't leave if Sayid and Kate were not freed. I don't think Jack said anything about Kate not being capable of mounting a rescue. He's trusted her in any number of situations. I think Jack admires Kate's athleticism and determination and strength. He trusted her to deliver Claire's baby, to hike to the black rock, to have his back, to be with him on the SOS hike, and he wanted to tell her about Michael in LTDA.

He didn't have a choice in most of those situations...and as for the rescue - who wouldn't try to rescue their friend from these others that have kidnapped and killed them since they landed on the island. How is Kate supposed to know that Jack was safe...he told her not to come back but most people would not think he meant it. He was being forthright when we told Ben that...but my point is - he says I don't trust you people and then he says ok I'll take your word that you'll let them go. It's rather naive don't you think. Michael left and no one's heard from him since - no one has come to rescue them.

That wasn't about Jack being spineless and not thinking Kate wasn't capable. That was Jack being emotional and not able to deal with what he was feeling about Kate and about Sawyer right then. He had just seen Kate feed Sawyer the pill. She had just kissed him and they had both been blown away by what that kiss felt like to them. He'd heard Sawyer mumble "I Love Her". Jack needed distance to get his head clear. Jack had a bad case of green-eyed monster, and he wanted to focus on getting Michael back, not what was going on with him, Kate and Sawyer.

So he took Sawyer and not Kate?? He didn't tell Sawyer he couldn't come, wouldn't that make more sense given Sawyer was the one who came back injured and was a part of the cause.

Sarah was about as cold and as nasty to Jack as someone can be when they went through the divorce. And yet in the end, he asked Juliet "is she happy?' He realized that if he couldn't make her happy, he still wanted that for her.

Keep in mind during this time, Jack went all crazy and started hounding her about this new guy. And if I'm not mistaken, Jack was the one that was cold during their marriage.

Back to the subject of the thread at hand. I think Kate is going to "use" Sawyer or manipulate him (or con him - everyone else seems to be able to LOL) when she gets jealous over Juliet having her paws on Jack. This will I think be part of the lesson Sawyer has to learn on the island since he has "used" and manipulated women for his chosen career. Including the mother of his little baby Clementine. So yes, imo, Kate will still be involved with Sawyer. It will likely not be the way Sawyer wants her to be involved with him.

I really, really hope this doesn't happen - I would hate for that to be her reasons but it's definitely a possibility and probably fairly likely. Keep in mind that Sawyer has grown a lot, and he did leave money to his little baby Clementine. I am thinking the big one will be that Kate and Sawyer will be together and then she will find out about Cassidy.

And I can't wait for some tension on the beach or wherever... it's about time :biggrin:

This is a fascinating thread. I might be wrong but it seems in general the guys are on Jack's side and he gals are on Sawyer's side. As a guy this surprises me after the way Sawyer treated Cassidy. And I don't get what disgusting things Jack has done to Kate these last few episodes. Jack acts guarded with his emotions anyways but when you are being watched you are even more guarded. And imo I think Jack knows Juliete's presence is another form of surveillance. Jack saves people and Kate runs. Before Jate there will be more saving and running.

I think the guys are on Jack's side, and the women are split, which tips the scales in Jack's favor. :biggrin: You see Jack as I see him: A guarded man. Emotionally, he's been through way too much, both on the island and off, to be open about his feelings to anyone. The fact that he keeps getting betrayed and his heart stomped all over, just causes him to retreat even more emotionally. Jack's distance from Kate makes perfect sense to me.

I'm always amazed at how Jack and Sawyer's actions are perceived. Jack is not a saint, but I find Sawyer's actions towards EVERYBODY reprehensible. As a woman, he is not a man I would be pining for based on his actions on the island for the past three months, and the way his actions are spun always amazes me. Heck, even Cassidy told Kate that she fell in love with a bad guy, and when Kate offered to take care of the guy, Cassidy didn't exactly say "No, he's not that bad."

Sawyer is good for a one-night stand, but not for the long term. He is not committment material at all, which he has proved. He's already abandoned his child and a woman he loves back on the mainland.

That's going to be my opinion for a while until I see some major changes in Sawyer.

As for how Jack treated Kate after she apologized, Jack didn't have to say one word of comfort to her in that moment. He didn't berate her or yell at her or make her feel worse. He simply didn't respond after her apology because he didn't know what to say. In the end, she reached out to help him up, and he accepted her help. There was no animosity between them.

In answer to the thread, Kate will go back to Sawyer. She has no where else to go, Jack isn't an option, and she doesn't want to be alone. That's my opinion.

This isn't actually about Jack or Sawyer, it's about Kate. Right now I don't think it matters at all what either guy says or does Kate needs to have a serious talk with herself. She's bouncing around like a rubber ball.

She's definitely pretty confused. What I guess I really wish she would do is remain neutral for a while and try to decompress. (As much as you can on an Island like this one.;))

I was hoping she would get come to some peace after this episode but she seems as much in hell as always. I wonder if Evangeline Lilly is like, "Oh brother, will it ever end??"

Ok relax, I am just stating an opinion. I don't go around all day thinking about how much I hate Jack and make it the focus of my life. It's just a forum after all. I don't actually hate Jack, I just find him a boring and lately not so likeable character (remember Hurley's comment about bedside manner?) I am kinda sick of people talking about how great and heroic Jack is when he is obviously as flawed as anyone else on the island (hell, in life let's face it). I am also not saying that Kate is without any fault in her actions, however I don't think she is as bad as some think. I do think her motivations are (in her mind at least) to help other people.

Didn't Hurley say that in Season 1? I thought it was much more funny when Ben said to Jack he didn't have very good bedside manner, and Jack was totally embracing that. :biggrin:

Jack is magnificently flawed and that is what makes him an interesting hero. I think both Jack and Kate's motivations and internal drivers are to help people. "live together, die alone". Sawyer is still somewhat "every man for himself". But I see him inching toward being more of a part of the group. Of course it helps having Hurley con him into joining in. Good Ole Hurley.




I'll clarify again when I said recently - I meant very recently as in sitting there while Kate pours out her apology and saying nothing except "Is Juliet here" or whatever he said. I just don't see that as heroic or even decent behaviour.


I agree it wasn't heroic behavior. As you said, Jack is flawed. But it wasn't indecent either. I wonder what your reaction would have been if Jack had leaned over and hugged Kate and kissed her, and said, I accept your apology? LOL. What would have made Jack act "decent" for you in that scene? Remember he'd just been awakened after 24 or so hours, and was groggy, and not sure what was going on.


Ok so we're on the same page mostly here. I didn't say murder was right, I said Wayne got what he deserved. There is a difference. Kate was not right in what she said but at the time maybe she thought it was all she could do to get this man away from her mother. I do think her motivations were all to protect her mother.



So people who abuse people deserve to be murdered?


He didn't have a choice in most of those situations...and as for the rescue - who wouldn't try to rescue their friend from these others that have kidnapped and killed them since they landed on the island. How is Kate supposed to know that Jack was safe...he told her not to come back but most people would not think he meant it. He was being forthright when we told Ben that...but my point is - he says I don't trust you people and then he says ok I'll take your word that you'll let them go. It's rather naive don't you think. Michael left and no one's heard from him since - no one has come to rescue them.


Jack observes and watches. And as Ben so eloquently described to Locke, he had to keep his word to Jack and Juliet or he would lose face. Jack probably had that figured out. Then the rescue party arrives, and John with his C4. So, maybe Jack was naive, maybe he has learned the Others brand of justice and laws meted out by Ben.


So he took Sawyer and not Kate?? He didn't tell Sawyer he couldn't come, wouldn't that make more sense given Sawyer was the one who came back injured and was a part of the cause.

I believe Jack tried to stop Sawyer from going with, but Sawyer demanded he get to go along.




Keep in mind during this time, Jack went all crazy and started hounding her about this new guy. And if I'm not mistaken, Jack was the one that was cold during their marriage.


Jack's only interaction with Sarah over who she was seeing was in the Lawyer's office, and at the end in the police station when he asked her "is that him?" We the audience saw him watching her at the daycare. And we saw him angry and frustrated with his father for being so secretive about his phone call with Sarah. I don't think working too much during his marriage made Jack cold, it made him away from home, and not communicating. Obviously, if Sarah told Jack that she thought she might be pregnant, things weren't that cold. ;)

I really, really hope this doesn't happen - I would hate for that to be her reasons but it's definitely a possibility and probably fairly likely.

I guess we will have to wait, watch, and see as Gregg so wonderfully says.

Peace!!

Ok I wasn't trying to say that Sawyer's actions are ok...but he has grown since his first days on the island. I certainly don't think anyone's saying that his pre-island behaviour wasn't reprehensible but the women involved in most of his scams were cheating on their husbands, they weren't innocent. Cassidy was trying to scam with him.

His actions on island have been very bad at times but not so bad lately. I am sorry if I came off as justifying him but I didn't mean it like that. As has been pointed out, the island seems to be about redemption and all that.


As for how Jack treated Kate after she apologized, Jack didn't have to say one word of comfort to her in that moment. He didn't berate her or yell at her or make her feel worse. He simply didn't respond after her apology because he didn't know what to say. In the end, she reached out to help him up, and he accepted her help. There was no animosity between them.

Well I didn't see it that way - it's funny how we all see different things.
100%
Jack is magnificently flawed and that is what makes him an interesting hero. I think both Jack and Kate's motivations and internal drivers are to help people. "live together, die alone". Sawyer is still somewhat "every man for himself". But I see him inching toward being more of a part of the group. Of course it helps having Hurley con him into joining in. Good Ole Hurley.


We all see Jack differently. I love Hurley!!! Sawyer is every man for himself unless Kate is around. He did show that in the cages when he thought he had a heart exploding pacemaker.

I agree it wasn't heroic behavior. As you said, Jack is flawed. But it wasn't indecent either. I wonder what your reaction would have been if Jack had leaned over and hugged Kate and kissed her, and said, I accept your apology? LOL. What would have made Jack act "decent" for you in that scene? Remember he'd just been awakened after 24 or so hours, and was groggy, and not sure what was going on.

Actually I would have preferred he say that she didn't have to apologize because she was trying to rescue him after all.

So people who abuse people deserve to be murdered?


Depends how evil they are I guess...maybe not murdered...something could fall out of the sky and severely injure them. I know this is going to be bad for my kharma.

I believe Jack tried to stop Sawyer from going with, but Sawyer demanded he get to go along.


Uh, so did Kate...so exactly my point

Jack's only interaction with Sarah over who she was seeing was in the Lawyer's office, and at the end in the police station when he asked her "is that him?" We the audience saw him watching her at the daycare. And we saw him angry and frustrated with his father for being so secretive about his phone call with Sarah. I don't think working too much during his marriage made Jack cold, it made him away from home, and not communicating. Obviously, if Sarah told Jack that she thought she might be pregnant, things weren't that cold.

Well I think we were supposed to get the impression that those weren't the only times he had harassed her.

I guess we will have to wait, watch, and see as Gregg so wonderfully says.

Peace!!

Yes and it should be a good ride either way ... :biggrin:

This is a fascinating thread. I might be wrong but it seems in general the guys are on Jack's side and he gals are on Sawyer's side. As a guy this surprises me after the way Sawyer treated Cassidy. And I don't get what disgusting things Jack has done to Kate these last few episodes. Jack acts guarded with his emotions anyways but when you are being watched you are even more guarded. And imo I think Jack knows Juliete's presence is another form of surveillance. Jack saves people and Kate runs. Before Jate there will be more saving and running.


Well I'm a woman but I've been defending Jack this whole time. Not that I think there should even be 'sides' anyway. :undecide: . The one thing I hate about the triangle is that in discussions it invariably comes down to 'Jack vs Sawyer'.
I agree with everything you say about Jack being guarded with his emotions, it can definitely come across as coldness or indifference when watched on screen. I think a classic example is Jack opening up to Kate with the 'I'm not' scene. Before they'd had the slightest chance to discuss what that means for them, Michael reappeared, the Ana/Libby thing happened, then the capture and then of course the Sawyer/Kate sex. No wonder Jack's closed off. He doesn't know whether he's coming or going.

I say Kate will stick with Sawyer when they get back to camp. Jack seems to be busy with Juliet and is hurt and angry at Kate. There are still feelings between them and I think they will make up eventually and Sawyer won't like it. The triangle continues!!

The one thing I hate about the triangle is that in discussions it invariably comes down to 'Jack vs Sawyer'.

me too. I think all three are fascinating characters with their strengths and weaknesses. I wishone of them didn't always have to be crucified to be discussed...

I say Kate will stick with Sawyer when they get back to camp. Jack seems to be busy with Juliet and is hurt and angry at Kate. There are still feelings between them and I think they will make up eventually and Sawyer won't like it. The triangle continues!!

If Sawyer should think that Hurley is right and that he can be the leader, will he challenge Jack over accepting Juliet, and if there is a split in the group, which way will Kate go? Her social position in the group has always depended on being the girlfriend of the leader, so will that encourage Sawyer to challenge Jack for leadership?

Jack and Kate is inevitable, but like every good love triangle it's not going to be resolved right away. If Kate and Jack straight up got together now it wouldn't make for good television in the future. The LOST writers can't always do every episode on the main plot, they have to fall back on what everyone calls "filler" episodes (Even though i think filler episodes can be as good if not better than the main plot ones). One of the main arches in these filler episodes is the Jack, Kate and Sawyer love triangle. They need it to continue.

Jack and Kate won't get together until near the end of the series, where it will seem much more epic. It's like with all the questions they give out, they string along viewers for ages and ages and we have to keep faith in the answers, if we had the answers straight away it wouldn't make for great television. When we do get those answers though it will make for great satisfaction, which brings me to my point, when they finally do get Kate and Jack together at the end it will make for one of the best scenes in the series.

Anyway it seems to me like some people are confusing "chauvinistic" with being a gentleman. There are two sides to everything and you can take the chauvinistic side with a lot of situations. Like when a man opens a car door for a lady, you could take the chauvinistic side and say "Well don't you think the lady has the strength to open the car door herself?". Or you could take the gentleman side and say that was a very caring action. In the end i think the original intention matters, when a man opens a car door for a lady it means he cares, wants to help her. He doesn't want to belittle her. It's generally accepted.

Let's take a moment and think what exactly what was going through Jack's mind when he switched Kate's pack with his. My opinion is that he was thinking "This is dangerous, i don't want Kate - the woman i care about to get hurt or die.". You could easily spin this action, take the other side and say, oh well he obviously thinks Kate's physically weak and can't handle herself. But was that his intention? I think not.

If Sawyer should think that Hurley is right and that he can be the leader, will he challenge Jack over accepting Juliet, and if there is a split in the group, which way will Kate go? Her social position in the group has always depended on being the girlfriend of the leader, so will that encourage Sawyer to challenge Jack for leadership?

Kind of reminiscent of Caves vs. Beach, huh?

I don't know if she's always been known as girlfriend of the leader, although I guess there have been enough allusions to that (like Charlie's "verbal compulating" remark).

I think she may probably be so turned off by the notion of Jack trying to integrate Juliet into the Losties group, that may be enough to really test her loyalties to Jack's leadership position.

Maybe this thread should be will Sawyer still want to be with Kate?? There's seems to be a general consensus that Kate will turn to Sawyer because of Jack's actions. While I don't want this to be true, it seems to be headed in that direction and what else can we assume unless we assume that Kate isn't actually in love with Jack. I am not convinced that she is in love with Jack, I think she thinks she's supposed to be so I don't think Jate is inevitable. For all we know she may end up with neither of them and I would actually rather she ended up with neither than with Jack but that's JMHO.

I guess it does always end up with crucifying one character to show another in a good light so let's just say that there has been some growth with many of the characters. And Hurley and Sayid rock!!! I think that Hurley really can bring out the best in people so maybe Kate should end up with Hurley. :biggrin:

Anyway it seems to me like some people are confusing "chauvinistic" with being a gentleman. There are two sides to everything and you can take the chauvinistic side with a lot of situations. Like when a man opens a car door for a lady, you could take the chauvinistic side and say "Well don't you think the lady has the strength to open the car door herself?". Or you could take the gentleman side and say that was a very caring action. In the end i think the original intention matters, when a man opens a car door for a lady it means he cares, wants to help her. He doesn't want to belittle her. It's generally accepted.

I see this very differently than the dynamite switching. The problem with this was the way the writers wrote it...having Kate run showed us that Jack was right in his actions. I forget which poster brought this up but someone else mentioned it and I have to agree - it made Kate look weak and like she couldn't be trusted with this responsibility.

And what I said was chauvinistic was Jack telling Kate she couldn't go (in fact forbidding her) like what he says goes but allowing Sawyer to tag along.

Someone had posted this before about how it would be great if Kate went off on her own for a bit and just stayed away from both Jack and Sawyer. At this point in time, I would have to agree. She's been so emotionally demoralized, she needs to take care of herself first and forget those two. The only problem with that is now that Smokie has resurfaced, finding a semi-safe place on the island is next to impossible. I would love it if she did a self -imposed exile, the way Sayid did after torturing Sawyer. I feel even if she moved down the beach away from the rest of the Losties would do her a world of good. Kate needs to be kind(er) to herself and should the writers feel that she shouldn't be with either of them, then I would be okay with that, also
I think this would be a good idea for her then she could see who she misses most- i luv them both

I think she's still confused about what she wants. Most likely she thinks she wants Jack (especially now that Juliet seems interested), but is still drawn to Sawyer because he loves her without condition. Time will tell I guess as to whether she's ready to settle down with one or the other. Or neither. ;)

Yes. Kate slept with him for a reason and it wasn't because she thought he was going to die. She loves both men, but is in love with Sawyer.

I think the bigger question should be, "Will Sawyer still want to be involved with Kate". In my opinion, this flitting between two men has caused a lot of problems and a lot of pain for everyone involved and it's time that both men put their foot down and it would appear Jack already has so now it's time to see if Sawyer wants to continue to be a pawn in Kate's indecisive game. Personally, I hope he sends her packing because I agree that the girl needs to spend some time alone and get her head together and if she truly loves either one of them approach the lucky/unlucky guy (matter of perspective) and just be honest about it.

Jack and Juliet are getting closer. No doubt Kate will get jealous. Then this will lead to Sawyer and Kate getting closer.

Then we can all debate whether this is because of jealousy/pity/revenge/love.

Awesome, it will be the mini season all over again! :drowsy:



Kate is a lost girl looking desperately for self validation!dont forget shes been rejected by her own mama!!!!