Remember? The Locke who vowed to clean up his messes, learn from his mistakes and protect his people. I was thinking that was going to be our Locke for S3.

Instead over the last few episodes we have seen Locke being a liability and a turncoat. I know Locke has always been a questionable "grey" character but I worry that they are going too far. Locke is still very interesting, but it is becoming increasingly hard to support him or defend his actions. How are Locke fans taking this?!

Locke can't resist the lure of the island. When he was back at he beach, away from the hatch and the button and everything, he seemed to get some sense into him. Now he's back with Ben and the mystery of the island, and everything else gets forgotten again. I think the island is like Anthony - Locke cannot resist following it around to gain acceptance/understanding from both of them.

Take in to consideration what the island has done for Locke up to this point... to the point of now suddenly having his father show up on the island. I think ANYONE in that situation would kind of be pulled towards finding out what really is going on.

Up to this moment, I'm still a Locke fan. And I still prefer this Locke to the one that blew up the hatch last season.

Season One Locke > Season Three Locke > Season Two Locke.

He's making some interesting choices, but then again, some interesting things are happening to him as of late. I think he has the best interests of his companions in mind, but he's always been a seeker of truth first and foremost -- I think that much of old Locke is back, and he's taking this opportunity while he has it to put to bed some mysteries from his personal life and his island life.

I'm pretty sure I'll always be a Locke fan, unless for some silly reason they make him a villain of sorts, intentionally plotting AGAINST his Lostie brethren.

i guess you can boil down locke's behaviour to two rough options

a) he's now working willingly with the Others
b) he's conning the Other's in some way

personally i'm leaning pretty heavily towards 'b'. the various evidence for this has been discussed at length in other threads, but it definitely *feels* like classic murder-mystery style misdirection... like in Murder, She Wrote, where there's one guy who spends the whole episode twirling his moustache and looking evil, before the murderer is revealed as the pretty niece or whatever :biggrin:

so i don't see a big change from "further instructions". eko said he would "save [his] friends" and quite possibly he HAS saved them. didn't look like ben was going to let jack go; maybe ben was planning some sort of 'accident' for jack on the sub?

Reposting my own post from another thread:

The writers have said several times that one of the overarching themes of Lost is faith vs. pragmatism. Locke is the "faith" guy. Most people who have faith are convinced that everything happens for a reason (hasn't that come out of Locke's mouth at some point?) and that they have a higher purpose (Locke definitely believes that--and that the Island is part of his purpose)...and Ben told Locke exactly what he's been waiting to hear his whole life ("That makes you very, very important").

People of faith become dangerous when they become convinced they KNOW what their purpose IS. Locke feels like hanging around Ben will get him closer to the secrets of the Island, closer to knowledge of his purpose. Maybe in the hang time between the Cooper reveal and the start of "Left Behind" (which I'm sure we'll get in all its detail in a later epi), Locke became convinced he knows his purpose, and joining the Ben and the Others is part of it. Or maybe he became convinced that Ben is one truly dangerous mofo, and he's letting him believe his manipulations are successful so he can figure out what the devil the Others are really up to and use that knowledge to help himself and the other 815ers.

Could go either way--Locke's been a chump all his life up to an including the submarine blow-up; so either a. he's gonna finally grow a REAL pair and save someone besides himself, or b. we're in for some seriously f'd up action from a guy who thinks he's on a "mission from God."

i guess you can boil down locke's behaviour to two rough options

a) he's now working willingly with the Others
b) he's conning the Other's in some way

You forgot the third option, the one I prefer: c)The Others are conning him.

Ben is a master conman. Better than Sawyer. He's been conning the Losties since they "captured" him and started pushing Locke's buttons with his "I was coming for you" nonsense in the hatch. Ben exploits people's emotional vulnerabilities and he knows the best way to do that with Locke is to hand over the thing he most wants--his father and a chance to have a relationship with him, or understand why he's such a rotten guy. Ben needs Locke for his ability to tap into the island's magic and he's using him. Locke thinks he's found another family and yes he's working with them "willingly" but he's being duped. Just like with the submarine, he has to think that its his idea.

I think Ben's promises have made him forget all about his friends, just like the discovery of the hatch made him forget all about searching for a missing Claire and Boone's safety. This is the same Locke that left Eko and Charlie for dead in the hallway rather than give up on his plan to not push the button.

I think Locke is just being the Locke he's always been. Someone who will put the Island before anything or anybody else. Whether it's a button or a magic stick, Locke has always been sidelined by his worship of the island to the point he sabotages anybody elses plans to escape or bring rescue. In that respect he's the most selfish Lostie on that island.

You forgot the third option, the one I prefer: c)The Others are conning him.

i'm kinda including that in a), but point taken.

just seems like the too obvious option though... we *know* Ben's an excellent conman, we *know* Locke has been conned many times.. doesn't it strike you that Locke turning round and conning Ben would make the more shocking/satisfying dénouement? i can't see the straightforward 'Locke being conned again' storyline going anywhere... doesn't seem to serve any purpose, from a storytelling point of view. :)

I go with b, as well. Locke is infilitrating the Others to get more info.

We can't know all there is to know about John Locke. I think that he is doing these things for himself but he does have the losties in the back of his mind. If he didn't I don't think he would have gone to bat for Kate, or even to tell her goodbye. He is trying to find out more about the others and what is going on; on the island.

It's either infiltration or Stockholm Syndrome.
Can't say I wouldn't go with the Others, I'd like to know what's the deal with them too.

I don't think there's any near clear-cut explanation for Locke. But I seriously do not trust him! I never have and was pretty pissed when he blew up the hatch and now, he's just ... not surprising me.

You forgot the third option, the one I prefer: c)The Others are conning him.

Ben is a master conman. Better than Sawyer. He's been conning the Losties since they "captured" him and started pushing Locke's buttons with his "I was coming for you" nonsense in the hatch. Ben exploits people's emotional vulnerabilities and he knows the best way to do that with Locke is to hand over the thing he most wants--his father and a chance to have a relationship with him, or understand why he's such a rotten guy. Ben needs Locke for his ability to tap into the island's magic and he's using him. Locke thinks he's found another family and yes he's working with them "willingly" but he's being duped. Just like with the submarine, he has to think that its his idea.

I think Ben's promises have made him forget all about his friends, just like the discovery of the hatch made him forget all about searching for a missing Claire and Boone's safety. This is the same Locke that left Eko and Charlie for dead in the hallway rather than give up on his plan to not push the button.


I'm with you on that pacejunkie...

I think they're making Locke think that he made his dad appear on the island and now they are acting like he is some amazing god of some sorts, conning him

Hes looking for FAMILY and they will give him one, not thats it the right kind of FAMILY that he needs, he did say to Desmond when Ecko was pounding on the Hatch door when they kicked him out, Desomond asked whos your friend and Locke said hes not my friend

Locke has two reoccurring weaknesses. In his flashbacks, his weakness is his desire for a relationship with his father. He pursues him to the point that he loses Helen. His other weakness is that of his destiny. He is always looking for a sense of meaning to his life. With his father on the island, The Others are able to tempt him with both of these.
He tends to be a strong character until he goes chasing after his destiny at everyone else's expense. That may be the case here. Right now, he thinks his destiny lies with the Others.
Or, another possibility is that he will actually help the Losties by going with the Others temporarily. This seems unlikely at this point since Locke's main goal has been to blow up any chance they have to get off.
Or, maybe he didn't have much choice: Ben seems to be really invested in learning more about Locke, and Ben has a manipulative way about him that gets him his way.

Whatever ends up being the truth, John Locke remains one of the most important and complex characters on the show.

Welcome to The Others, John, it's where you belong. He mouths pieties about "friends" and gives rousing speeches about rescuing blah blah blah and all that nonsense about the 815 Gang, but his actions from almost the get-go on the Island (he conked Sayid on the head because of the transmitter on Day 8, for example) have indicated that's just rubbish. He may believe it at some level, but so what? Actions are what matter, not words.

The bottom line is simple: John doesn't want to leave the Island. Period. He simply can't make that any clearer, can he? As such, he's in opposition to a majority of the Losties; they have nothing he wants.

Ben is playing John and John is playing Ben. They have a mutual interest, so it makes sense for John to throw his lot in with The Others.

Of course, the Lostaways being the dumb as a box of hair lot that they are, are probably going to round up another absurd posse, trek North again, get their butts totally kicked --AGAIN-- and slink back to the southern part of the Island with their tails between their legs. It seems unlikely, but maybe, just maybe, it will sink in with them: John doesn't want their help. Go back to having boar parties and drinking crappy DHARMA beer, leave John alone.

Welcome, John.

there is a big difference between faith and being gullible.

i think locke is very impressionable and ben is taking advantage
of that.

I agree that his behavoir doesnt square with FI

Dont think for one moment he likes the Others..he just wants his answers and his dream of being safari man,

Right from the start Locke tried to sabatoge efforts to get of the Island--.when he clubbed Sayid
Now he blows up communications and the the Sub. So in a way he hasnt changed. I still think he cares about the Losties and believes he is saving them(in his own twisted way)

can someone - ANYone please explain (to a woman who's not seen a word beyond TTID) why, the notion that the destruction of all communications and means of transportation are necessary for John to remain on the island, persists?

A man of John extraordinary talent, self-belief and will, could dissapear into the interior and you wouldn't even see him go.

Does no one besides myself think that the destruction of the Other's infrastructure (and whoever else maintains a presemce on the Island) smacks of military tactics, and that the subsequent cessation of communication with the outside world, far from cutting the Island off, is likely to bring others (small 'o' I haven't a clue who they might be - lol) in?

If John's working for anyone, it's in the service of the Island. He may hope to make anyone remaining there untenable.

Maybe, feeling violated, she's in need of a Champion.

I think Ben's promises have made him forget all about his friends, just like the discovery of the hatch made him forget all about searching for a missing Claire and Boone's safety. This is the same Locke that left Eko and Charlie for dead in the hallway rather than give up on his plan to not push the button.

Not sure about that. At the end of Left Behind, weren't Sayid, Jack, Kate, and Juliet free to go back to the beach? I would say that Locke going off with the Others was probably one of the best things that could have happened to them. Much better than being tied up to a swingset for who knows how long.

So funny you posted this thread. Last night my husband and I were looking over screen caps from Further Instructions. We recalled that Boone told Locke that Jack needed to be saved. Yet, when he, Kate and Sayid went to "rescue" Jack, Locke was completely uninterested in finding Jack--or so we are lead to believe. It is Henry he wants to find. I found that so very odd. Mystical Locke, receiving instructions from dead Boone, yet he ignoring them. What's up with that??:huh:

can someone - ANYone please explain (to a woman who's not seen a word beyond TTID) why, the notion that the destruction of all communications and means of transportation are necessary for John to remain on the island, persists?Liplocked, it's hard to address your question without spoilers from the eppies after Tricia Tanaka is Dead, so I'll spoiler font my response, in case you don't mind light spoilers.At the end of the totally awesome The Man from Tallahassee, we find out why John is suddenly Mad Bomber John: it's not so much because John wants to remain --though, given his communion with the Island, that's a factor-- so much as he wants there to be one place in the world that Anthony Cooper can never, ever find him. With no communication to the outside world, no sub, none of the connections that existed, the Island is that place. Your point is a good one though, the Island is probably now a place that will arouse interest, especially since I would imagine that the "snowglobe" effect ended when the hatch blew up.

I have decided to pull a Locke about Locke and just have "faith" in his character and where he's headed. Though I have to admit, I'm pretty confused. We've seen the Shaman Locke, the Button Locke and now the Bomber Locke. I personally miss the Shaman Locke and hope it's still in him when all is said and done. It's what I loved about his character in the first place.

Liplocked, it's hard to address your question without spoilers from the eppies after Tricia Tanaka is Dead, so I'll spoiler font my response, in case you don't mind light spoilers.At the end of the totally awesome The Man from Tallahassee, we find out why John is suddenly Mad Bomber John: it's not so much because John wants to remain --though, given his communion with the Island, that's a factor-- so much as he wants there to be one place in the world that Anthony Cooper can never, ever find him. With no communication to the outside world, no sub, none of the connections that existed, the Island is that place. Your point is a good one though, the Island is probably now a place that will arouse interest, especially since I would imagine that the "snowglobe" effect ended when the hatch blew up.

That's all good, Jeremy thank you, :) because, (Luddite Lock = NObody leaves the Island) = John consequentially gets to stay. ... might work as a mathmatical equation of sorts ...but just didn't make any sense to me. There had to be something else in back of his behaviour.

I wondered what I was missing in other peoples' reasoning of the situation. I'm now comforted that I wasn't at fault.

Fear, I understand! As a motivation, it makes complete sense to me, even to the extent that John's actions become 'reasonable'.

I do have access to TMFT; I'll have to give it a look. Thanks again. *nods*

I love the fact that you really can't guess what is going to happen with Locke! You can never predict what he's going to do next. I am always surprised and interested in what's going to happen next.

I do have access to TMFT; I'll have to give it a look. Thanks again. *nods*Oooohhh, you're in for a big heaping help of John Goodness in TMFT. Stir in some Ben snark, Alex pouting, a great Jack/Kate scene and it's simply one of my fave eppies ever. I've watched Ben say to John "I know you, John Locke" at least 50 times, the way Michael says it is.....just so cool. Glad to have been of help! :)

(Spot on Jeremy; but I'm adding special mention for Sayid :biggrin: I am SO pleased to see him shine in every scene he's in.)

What happened to the Locke from Further Instructions? ~ Unless I'm very wide of the mark - like that's going to happen :rolleyes: - he's over at the Others'

....building bridges. :whistling