What was Juliet referring to... "It must happen at conception".

She was referring to whatever causes the problems in the pregnancies of the island woman that seems to be able to kill them. We can gather from this scene that the woman are capable of getting pregnant (Ben said that it was the woman's choice) but that pregnancy is deadly.

So if the conception happens off of the island the women are safe, but if it happens on the island they die. Whoa!!! What a perfect reason for a headache!

So, Claire was safe until they injected her. But what about Sun?!?!?!

yeah what about Sun if it happens at conception then Sun would either die OR she was pregnant BEFORE arriving on the island?

So if the conception happens off of the island the women are safe, but if it happens on the island they die. Whoa!!! What a perfect reason for a headache!

If that's true, let's hope it is Jae's baby.

If it is true that conception on island = death, then Sun is safe. Of course, we don't know when she got pregnant, so that should create some drama.

Danielle also arrived on the island pregnant, and we know she gave birth to Alex and survived. Karl is fairly young as well, so I wonder who his mother is.

As for what exactly DOES happen... I'm guessing it's some sort of genetic mutation caused by the electromagnetism on the island. It causes the mother to think the fetus is like a cancer.

If that's true, let's hope it is Jae's baby.

That's what I thought.

except one problem - it was lie that Claire was having a reaction and needed the med - it was set off by Ben - she doesn't need anything to keep her alive - she came to the island pregnant and did just fine - I do believe Ethan was taking her blood and testing it but I don't believe she needed med to be kept alive - that is the con - Juliet conned all of them into thinking Claire needed it to live - that all pregnant people die on the island but Claire didn't and she conned them into thinking it was because of her medicine - that she kept Claire alive - but I don't believe it - Claire was kept alive by something or someone else - I just don't know what - who yet!

Good idea, Jenny! Why would Ben say that no one gets cancer but pregnant women's bodies end up treating the fetuses like cancer? That's so weird to me. Very confusing.

Yes, Sun's drama will be whether or not the baby is Jae's or an island miracle baby from Jin. If she dies, it's Jin's. I guess. Which I guess is why Juliet is with the Losties: to get Sun (my theory for now).

Ok, later in the episode they mentioned that it didn't matter about conception. Just if you are pregnant on the island you are dead.

It will be interesting to figure this one out.

I like the black widow concept... Move to the island, conceive and die.

I guess I shouldn't have said I liked the idea, but a cool story line...

except one problem - it was lie that Claire was having a reaction and needed the med - it was set off by Ben - she doesn't need anything to keep her alive - she came to the island pregnant and did just fine - I do believe Ethan was taking her blood and testing it but I don't believe she needed med to be kept alive - that is the con - Juliet conned all of them into thinking Claire needed it to live - that all pregnant people die on the island but Claire didn't and she conned them into thinking it was because of her medicine - that she kept Claire alive - but I don't believe it - Claire was kept alive by something or someone else - I just don't know what - who yet!

Claire doesn't need anything to be kept alive. They made her sick on purpose to pull the con. That's all. She apparently could have the baby because of the pre-island conception.

Claire doesn't need anything to be kept alive. They made her sick on purpose to pull the con. That's all. She apparently could have the baby because of the pre-island conception.

that is what I was trying to say but you said it so much better and shorter too - I am just so worked up that they are falling for her lies!

AHHH you guys are giving ME a headache ;) Its intresting, than what exactly is the stuff that was given to claire, i thought it was medicine too.

except one problem - it was lie that Claire was having a reaction and needed the med - it was set off by Ben - she doesn't need anything to keep her alive - she came to the island pregnant and did just fine - I do believe Ethan was taking her blood and testing it but I don't believe she needed med to be kept alive - that is the con - Juliet conned all of them into thinking Claire needed it to live - that all pregnant people die on the island but Claire didn't and she conned them into thinking it was because of her medicine - that she kept Claire alive - but I don't believe it - Claire was kept alive by something or someone else - I just don't know what - who yet!


Claire was fine on her own. She would have had Aaron on her own without any medication. Ethan kidnapped Claire to plant a device in her, that would be triggered later, that made her sick. After Ben triggered the device, Juliet simply administered the antidote to the implanted device. Ben had this in his plan from the beginning. If they were merley monitoring Claire, using her as a "control" as Juliet said, what would be the need to plant a device on her that would make her sick?

i predict that sun will be the first person that juliet successfully treats. either that or it is jae's baby. in any case, SUN CAN'T DIE!!

The fb in which Juliet told Ben that the trouble begins with conception seems to be the truth. Claire and Danielle conceived off-island and delivered just fine; what Juliet said about saving Claire's life was a lie to establish her as a savior and gain the Losties' trust. She probably injected Claire with a harmless placebo.

I think she's been sent to scope out Sun and try to save her pregnancy if indeed she conceived on the island--probably by taking Sun back with her. And poor Sun: either Jin is the father, but she'll die or Jae is the father and she'll live a lie.

I don't think we know the truth about the kidnapping yet, since Juliet's whole Ethan story was a con. The way she was tying that rope suggests to me that she hung Charlie.

Cardie

Didn't Ben say he was born on the island? If he was, he must have been conceived off island.

Juliet could've been somewhat telling the truth...I can't imagine they implanted a device in Claire for an intricate plan later on, what I can see though, is that they implanted a device that could be triggered in a childbirth related emergency, that just hapened to be useful in another way.

as for Ben being concieved on/off the island, I felt like the inability to concieve was a more recent development, much like Ben's cancer...like perhaps the island is turning against them slowly...huh...

The way she was tying that rope suggests to me that she hung Charlie. Very nice catch.. Juliet proved, especially last week, that she's extremely strong and agile.

"it begins at conception" I think I just realized why the other made it so easy for Kate to sneek into Sawyers Cage, and then Ben Watched them! I wonder if Kate isn't a unwilling guienea pig. Maybe this is why Juliet handcuffed herself to Kate! Why she left Jack at othersville and wanted Kate to trust her so badly! Then she saves Claire in front of Kate! Man if Kate winds up preggers.......... :eek2:

absolutely - my thoughts are on kate - sweaty sawyer was putting out the vibe to kate and if infact kate is pregnant - oh my... sawyer may have killed his girl.

So, the whole joke about women that have sex on the island dying, isn't really a joke at all. If a bullet doesn't get ya, the weird, creepy island will. :sick:

I think Claire was going to be fine all along...Danielle also...when Juliette said that Claire was their control subject...I got the notion that they were using Claire to test Juliette's serum...to verify that it wasn't the medicine causing death...but that doesn't necessarily mean that medicine helped either...

Now Sun...[Kate?!?]...may be in trouble...Juliette mentioning that it happens at conception makes me think that conceiving on the island is what causes this thus far unexplained mysterious death causing pregnancy issue......someone find some scientific explanation for this one...

Ben was born on the island...was he conceived on the island??? Might have some significance...who knows?!?!

I think Dharma coming in and collecting all the EM energy at the Swan, and then it leaking out in "the incident," is what started the child-bearing problems. Ben was conceived and born before then.

Cardie

I think Dharma coming in and collecting all the EM energy at the Swan, and then it leaking out in "the incident," is what started the child-bearing problems. Ben was conceived and born before then.

Cardie

I agree. AND, does this mean that there is hope for Sun (if it's Jin's baby) because the hatch was blown to smithereens and the electromagnetic anomaly was released??

just a note, cancer is basically unregulated cell growth/division... the body does not regulate the growth, so it would not react to it the way they described Claire and other pregnant women's reactions (body treating the fetus like a foreign object, resulting in an immune response). Sorry, I noticed a few initial posts calling the response like that to a cancer, but its more like that to a virus or junior mint (for fans of Seinfeld)...

So, perhaps the island enhances immune response so greatly that anything even partly foreign can result in the mother's danger?? Anything, such as a baby (although technically the mother's blood doesn't contact the fetus blood potentially until birth, to quell the chances for such a terrible reaction) then might be deadly for the mother.

Further, perhaps cancer is an inevitability to life on the island? If say the island enhances their bodies, initially curing ailments/conditions, to the point where their cells get to a point where they just continue to divide and grow... then hmm. Makes me wonder if Ben is the ONLY one born on the island (who are his parents and how'd he live?) still alive today. That could explain why he's the only one with cancer...

I think Dharma coming in and collecting all the EM energy at the Swan, and then it leaking out in "the incident," is what started the child-bearing problems. Ben was conceived and born before then.

Cardie

Yes, probably so.

The fb in which Juliet told Ben that the trouble begins with conception seems to be the truth. Claire and Danielle conceived off-island and delivered just fine; what Juliet said about saving Claire's life was a lie to establish her as a savior and gain the Losties' trust. She probably injected Claire with a harmless placebo.

I think she's been sent to scope out Sun and try to save her pregnancy if indeed she conceived on the island--probably by taking Sun back with her. And poor Sun: either Jin is the father, but she'll die or Jae is the father and she'll live a lie.

I don't think we know the truth about the kidnapping yet, since Juliet's whole Ethan story was a con. The way she was tying that rope suggests to me that she hung Charlie.

Cardie

I saw the knot as just a symbol for the twist that came at the end when we see that she really isn't "one of us" as Jack thinks. I trust Sawyer and Sayid's assessments of a person everytime.

I agree that Julilet is there for Sun. :frown:

As for the injection being a placebo, I have a question. What did Juliet tell Ben she would need? His answer was something like Price will (or already has?) put it at Ethan's drop point?

Hmm this episode foreshadowed quite a bit... Where we're going is: Claire didn't die because she conceived off the island, as well as Rousseau. The date of conception will therefore be extremely important for Sun... hey,episode 18 (Sun/Jin) is called "Date of Conception," what a coincidence... So my guess is Sun will live, but then we'll know it wasn't Jin's, or at least that will be the tragic twist (assuming Sun and Jin weren't... umm.. conceiving during their argumentative times weeks before the island).

I like this though, the irony is that if it was Jin's she would die, but in this way they can have a baby and save their marriage -- the question is if Jin ever finds out.

Very nice catch.. Juliet proved, especially last week, that she's extremely strong and agile.
Extremely! It is extraordinarily difficult to drag a dead-weight body even across smooth surfaces. Can you imagine how insanely hard it would have been to drag Kate through the jungle!!! Juliet is definitely a physical force to be reckoned with. :eek2:

(although technically the mother's blood doesn't contact the fetus blood potentially until birth, to quell the chances for such a terrible reaction)
I thought the mother's blood did contact the fetus? That was the whole problem with Rh- mothers: their bodies would attack the fetus as a foreign body and kill it. (Although to be fair, the first child could survive but subsequent children couldn't.)

I think Dharma coming in and collecting all the EM energy at the Swan, and then it leaking out in "the incident," is what started the child-bearing problems. Ben was conceived and born before then.

Ah yes, the incident! Excellent point. I think you may be right...

So, perhaps the island enhances immune response so greatly that anything even partly foreign can result in the mother's danger??

This is a good idea, but I don't understand how the mothers are actually dying? The immune system treating a foetus like a foreign object usually results in miscarriage, not death of the mother. According to Google and the NIH, as many as 80% of miscarriages are due to immunological 'rejection'.

Is something different happening on the island, or is this another case of TPTB 'stretching reality' a little? :)

So, perhaps the island enhances immune response so greatly that anything even partly foreign can result in the mother's danger?? Anything, such as a baby (although technically the mother's blood doesn't contact the fetus blood potentially until birth, to quell the chances for such a terrible reaction) then might be deadly for the mother.

Further, perhaps cancer is an inevitability to life on the island? If say the island enhances their bodies, initially curing ailments/conditions, to the point where their cells get to a point where they just continue to divide and grow... then hmm. Makes me wonder if Ben is the ONLY one born on the island (who are his parents and how'd he live?) still alive today. That could explain why he's the only one with cancer...

These are good points, although Luna_02 is right in stating that this kind of response would kill the fetus, not the mother. Actually, immune rejection is the natural response of the body to a pregnancy, since it technically is foreign material, but in the first few days the embryo does something that blocks this response. The writers will have to explain this better in order to satisfy me. They seem to be suggesting that somehow the women develop a systemic autoimmune reaction against their own bodies... which doesn't make any sense if you know how the immune system operates. Interesting observation about Ben's cancer- maybe he did survive conception on the island, but this is the consequence?

I thought the mother's blood did contact the fetus? That was the whole problem with Rh- mothers: their bodies would attack the fetus as a foreign body and kill it. (Although to be fair, the first child could survive but subsequent children couldn't.)

This is true, although not all components of the mother's blood contact the fetus. The placenta is kind of a selectively permeable barrier, letting certain blood molecules through like nutrients, certain classes of antibodies, etc. Certain things are most transmittable at birth though, like Hepatitis and HIV, because they don't readily get to the fetus in utero, which is why C-sections are recommended for such women. With the Rh problem, its Rh crossing from child to mother at birth that causes the problem, but during the actual pregnancy both are fine.

If this happens at conception, could it be possible it has something to do with the men? Something wrong with their sperm?

Also, I thought of the symbolism of Juliet's knot tying as like a spider..."Oh, what a tangled web we weave...." Or, since they were showing the loops, possibly a crude depiction of the symbol on the tree.

So, Claire was safe until they injected her. But what about Sun?!?!?!

juliet said she was exhibiting the same signs as the other women from her blood samples
they injected her to save her??? but you shouldn't believe an Other

With the Rh problem, its Rh crossing from child to mother at birth that causes the problem, but during the actual pregnancy both are fine.


My mother and I were Rh incompatible and it does cross the blood into the fetus before birth. She had to be induced with me 4 weeks early because basically how she put it, I was killing her and she was killing me. This was in 77, but they have a shot for it now I believe. Just wanted to clairfy that it does cross before birth. :)

I'm an RN so the medical science behind this particular theory is solid. We know that some women have an irregular immune response when they conceive. Instead of the body protecting the growing baby, it turns on it, recognizing it as foreign. As a result, the immune system sends out killer cells to remove the invader. This causes a miscarriage (ie, spontaneous abortion). There are various ways to treat this condition, some with moderate success, but the underlying cause hasn't been 100% successfully solved.

Thus, I can see the science in this plot theory. Very intriguing.

My mother and I were Rh incompatible and it does cross the blood into the fetus before birth. She had to be induced with me 4 weeks early because basically how she put it, I was killing her and she was killing me. This was in 77, but they have a shot for it now I believe. Just wanted to clairfy that it does cross before birth. :)It definitely does on the second (and all further) pregnancies, which is very dangerous. Were you the first child? (I'm just curious, cause I thought that the first pregnancy was fine, but that all subsequent ones had this problem.:))

I thought of a possible theory on what happens. Maybe at conception, something happens that destroys the mother's immune system entirely, and somehow the immune system of the fetus develops, gets into the mother's body, recognizes it as foreign and kills her? It's kind of a stretch, and I think I need to re-watch the Ben-Juliet and Juliet-Jack-Kate scene to see exactly what they say about it. Did Ben say that it was the mother's body attacking the pregnancy?

All I know is they better have included a few cases of DHARMA contraceptives in that last pallet drop.

They seem to be suggesting that somehow the women develop a systemic autoimmune reaction against their own bodies... which doesn't make any sense if you know how the immune system operates.

Actually, most autoimmune disorders result in the body turning on itself. Lupus and rheumatoid arthritis are some severe examples. Eczema would be a less severe one.
So theoretically, yes, the body CAN turn on itself. And it can happen during pregnancy (albeit most often affecting the developing baby, not the mom) or at any other time.
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[quote=Kate731;1487047]It definitely does on the second (and all further) pregnancies, which is very dangerous. Were you the first child? (I'm just curious, cause I thought that the first pregnancy was fine, but that all subsequent ones had this problem.:))

You are correct. Another example: It isn't the initial exposure that causes the allergy. Usually the body builds up the response and then "over responds" when it next 'meets' the foreign invader.

Because the Rh incompatibility is deadly (to the fetus certainly but also can be to the mother), pregnant women are treated EVEN during the first pregnancy. The risk is to all further pregnancies - including miscarriages.

Jenny - Thank you so much for providing the link that I'd not thought of when I was discussing the radiation theory a few days ago. I can finally write up the theory now, yay!

Juliet was recruited because of impregnating a woman who was undergoing chemotherapy.

Just so that everybody knows: A side effect of radiation on a fetus is carcinogenicity and because it happens at conception the dose of the radiation effecting the child is even more potent because of the number of cell proliferations going on at that time (as the cells divide). The Island mutates the first cell making it a cancer cell (which continually divides)...

I was her 3 child and the only one she was incompatible with.:)

Actually, most autoimmune disorders result in the body turning on itself. Lupus and rheumatoid arthritis are some severe examples. Eczema would be a less severe one.
So theoretically, yes, the body CAN turn on itself. And it can happen during pregnancy (albeit most often affecting the developing baby, not the mom) or at any other time.

Yes, I do know about autoimmune diseases (I actually had Eczema as a child, and my aunt has MS.) Sorry if my wording in that post was a bit off! I just don't understand how pregnancy could cause an autoimmune reaction, when I thought Ben said that the immune system attacks the fetus (which is perfectly realistic and does happen.) But I don't see how a mother's immune reaction against the foreign fetus results in an autoimmune reaction against her own tissues?

I was her 3 child and the only one she was incompatible with.

Ah okay. The way I remember learning about Rh was that if a woman has a pregnancy with an Rh incompatible child, during the birth Rh antigens from the child cross into the mother, and she makes antibodies against them since they are foriegn. Then, if a subsequent pregnancy has the same Rh incompatible antigens the mother's antibodies from the previous pregnancy see it and attack the child. But I was under the impression that the original Rh incompatible pregnancy would be ok since Rh needs to cross at birth for the mom's immune system to see it. I might be off on this, since I learned it a while ago in an immunology class.

it was never specifically said that ben was conceived on the island. or even born on the island. just that he "lived there is whole life"

I'm glad someone pointed out that it may be the father's sperm that is at issue. Girls are born eith all the eggs they will ever have, but sperm is continually made; thus "island-made" sperm may be the problem. Perhaps what they need to do is be able to impregnate women withOUT mutated/defective sperm.

I believe the flashbacks, but I don't believe anything she said to the crew. Shady lady.

They seem to be suggesting that somehow the women develop a systemic autoimmune reaction against their own bodies... which doesn't make any sense if you know how the immune system operates..

Juliet says to Jack/Kate in regards to pregnancy on the island "the mother's body turns on the pregnancy; treats it as a foreign invader"

And about Claire - "Claire's immune system is turning on her. She's having a latent reaction to a medication in her bloodstream.....it was designed to keep her alive during the late stages of her pregnancy".....and "if I don't treat her quickly, her immune system could shut down entirely"

Now, if your immune system is attacking a pregnancy, giving immunosuppressants might be one way of trying to avoid the loss of said pregnancy. But stopping the immunosuppressants after pregnancy is over would be good for the immune system, not cause it to "shut down entirely".

It doesn't make sense to me - Juliet is lying or TPTB are making something up :biggrin: And I'm a bit annoyed that Dr Jack didn't call her on it - he should know as much about the immune system as Juliet :confused:

Yes, I do know about autoimmune diseases (I actually had Eczema as a child, and my aunt has MS.) Sorry if my wording in that post was a bit off! I just don't understand how pregnancy could cause an autoimmune reaction, when I thought Ben said that the immune system attacks the fetus (which is perfectly realistic and does happen.) But I don't see how a mother's immune reaction against the foreign fetus results in an autoimmune reaction against her own tissues?

I think this is where science and fiction begin to blend. Frankly, we don't know everything about conception, nor does science completely understand the HOW and WHY of autoimmune disorders. Only in the past few years have we even begun to understand the link between viruses and cancer. I can see TPTB stretching medical science into the world of plausible theories to explain this plotline. Amazing writers!



Ah okay. The way I remember learning about Rh was that if a woman has a pregnancy with an Rh incompatible child, during the birth Rh antigens from the child cross into the mother, and she makes antibodies against them since they are foriegn. Then, if a subsequent pregnancy has the same Rh incompatible antigens the mother's antibodies from the previous pregnancy see it and attack the child. But I was under the impression that the original Rh incompatible pregnancy would be ok since Rh needs to cross at birth for the mom's immune system to see it. I might be off on this, since I learned it a while ago in an immunology class.

You're correct. But because women can miscarry without their knowledge (ie, the menstrual cycle begins a few days "late"), it is better to treat even the first pregnancy to prevent the antibody formation. Does that make sense?

I don't think we know the truth about the kidnapping yet, since Juliet's whole Ethan story was a con. The way she was tying that rope suggests to me that she hung Charlie.

Cardie

I loved how they closed out the show with that scene. Great catch!

Now, if your immune system is attacking a pregnancy, giving immunosuppressants might be one way of trying to avoid the loss of said pregnancy. But stopping the immunosuppressants after pregnancy is over would be good for the immune system, not cause it to "shut down entirely". It doesn't make sense to me - Juliet is lying or TPTB are making something up :biggrin: And I'm a bit annoyed that Dr Jack didn't call her on it - he should know as much about the immune system as Juliet :confused:

But here is the place where science and fiction begin to blend. Who knows what was REALLY happening? Juliet may have told the truth - or a partial truth - or no truth at all. The whole idea behind immunosuppressants is that they inhibit the body's natural immune system. If someone has had an organ transplant, then he/she is on those medications for the rest of his/her life. To stop the medication means to allow the body to reject the organ, which causes death.

Whose to say that there wasn't some sort of "transplant" mechanism occuring? We don't know what was in those vials. This is the gray area that we don't understand right now. I trust TPTB to tell us a good, complete story. We'll just have to take some of it on faith right now. (Which is interesting because we're discussing the science. LOL)

Kathi

You're correct. But because women can miscarry without their knowledge (ie, the menstrual cycle begins a few days "late"), it is better to treat even the first pregnancy to prevent the antibody formation. Does that make sense?

That definitely makes sense. Actually, I checked Wikipedia just to verify, and in 14% of cases the Rh antigens actually do cross to the mother in utero, so a first pregnancy with an Rh incompatible fetus can result in Rh disease. Interesting.

I really hope the writer's do something interesting with this issue, hopefully we'll get some interesting medical discussions- maybe between Juliet and Jack? I just hope they don't "dumb it down" too much. The worst example of this I've ever seen was in an X-Files episode- Scully, a supposed medical doctor, has "alien DNA" analyzed, and the lab technician starts explaining DNA to her- "see, DNA is made up of 4 bases, Adenine, Guanine... etc etc. " and Scully sits there looking absolutely captivated, like she's never heard any of this info before! I almost died laughing!

I'm still a little confused about Claire and her pregnancy. There really wasn't anything wrong with her and would have had Aaron with no problems...right? Juliet lied about that part to Jack then. So the implant they put into Claire, I'm assuming at the Caduceus hatch, was acting as a test case to make her experience the symptoms of autoimmune disease so Juliet could try her serum out? But then Alex helped her escape and Juliet's chance was gone. But now the implant is coming in handy after all and Juliet made the story up about Claire's immune system turning on her post partum so she can infiltrate the camp.

Sorry, I'm just trying to make sense of the sequence of events and what's fact and and what is a lie on Juliet's part. I have the same question as the above poster wondering why Jack didn't catch her in this lie.

Maybe the "problem starts at conception" happens only with Juliet's treatment\method.

Maybe normally the Others just can't get pregnant and never get to the conception part.

Thats how I took it when I watched it anyway.

I'm still a little confused about Claire and her pregnancy. There really wasn't anything wrong with her and would have had Aaron with no problems...right? Juliet lied about that part to Jack then. So the implant they put into Claire, I'm assuming at the Caduceus hatch, was acting as a test case to make her experience the symptoms of autoimmune disease so Juliet could try her serum out? But then Alex helped her escape and Juliet's chance was gone. But now the implant is coming in handy after all and Juliet made the story up about Claire's immune system turning on her post partum so she can infiltrate the camp.

Not quite, if this is radiation based, then Claire arrived in her third trimester on the island but according to this:
Third Trimester -- Irradiation during this period may deplete cell populations at very high doses (over 50 rem), but will not result in gross organ malformations.

So Aaron has been irradiated in the womb but has suffered no adverse effects that we know of yet. Timing is going to be very important to this storyline.

Maybe the "problem starts at conception" happens only with Juliet's treatment\method.

Maybe normally the Others just can't get pregnant and never get to the conception part.

Thats how I took it when I watched it anyway.

You've got a good point. Alpert did say to Juliet 'You created life where life wasn't supposed to be". In other words, barren. But why not look at the men as the source of the problem? Could Jin's backstory be another key? What if they synthesized sperm because its the men who are infertile but because it's a foreign body impregnating the women this is the cause of the immunity problem? Thus Juliet says it happens at conception?

Just throwing ideas out there so you guys can weed out the plausible from the implausible. There has to be a key to this somewhere.
100%
Not quite, if this is radiation based, then Claire arrived in her third trimester on the island but according to this:
So Aaron has been irradiated in the womb but has suffered no adverse effects that we know of yet. Timing is going to be very important to this storyline. Thanks for the info passport, I'm really trying to make sense of all this in terms of the storyline.

Thanks for the info passport, I'm really trying to make sense of all this in terms of the storyline.

My guess is that there is some kind of radioactive nuclear source on the island, possibly uranium, and pressing the button every 108 minutes kind of polarises it and it needs to be polarised to the other pole 108 minutes later. This was all well and good until the incident which say the button not getting pushed and a large degree of radiation was released, which has kind of effected everyone on the island. (Shrinking cancer - Rose. Ben is an exception). The radiation has caused the unnaturally quick wear of the female reproductive system.
I think it all has to do with radiation - what was the point in Sayid's chernobyl style wall otherwise?

Very nice catch.. Juliet proved, especially last week, that she's extremely strong and agile.

I can't wait for the flashback that shows who hung Charlie. If it was Juliet... that will be EXTREMELY COOL!

Juliet says to Jack/Kate in regards to pregnancy on the island "the mother's body turns on the pregnancy; treats it as a foreign invader"

And about Claire - "Claire's immune system is turning on her. She's having a latent reaction to a medication in her bloodstream.....it was designed to keep her alive during the late stages of her pregnancy".....and "if I don't treat her quickly, her immune system could shut down entirely"

Now, if your immune system is attacking a pregnancy, giving immunosuppressants might be one way of trying to avoid the loss of said pregnancy. But stopping the immunosuppressants after pregnancy is over would be good for the immune system, not cause it to "shut down entirely".

It doesn't make sense to me - Juliet is lying or TPTB are making something up :biggrin: And I'm a bit annoyed that Dr Jack didn't call her on it - he should know as much about the immune system as Juliet :confused:

What is this "implant"? What's in those vials? Answers to these questions will shed a lot on this...

Kate is fine.

Her and Sawyer conceived on the Hydra Island not the main island :)
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as for Ben being concieved on/off the island, I felt like the inability to concieve was a more recent development, much like Ben's cancer...like perhaps the island is turning against them slowly...huh...

YES!!!

The Island will kill Ben and the rest of the Others/Hostiles with Lockes help!

I don't think Ben was lying when he said nobody on the island had cancer but i think we may have found out why Ben now has it, we're just forgetting a simple statement that Sayid made in season 2. Jacks key gets pulled towards the concrete wall and Sayid says "The last time I heard of concrete being poured over everything in this way was Chernobyl". Maybe hinting that there is some kind of radiation being contained (the incident??) Ben has been on the island his whole life, or so he says so he would have been there for the incident so maybe that radiation, or the incident, at one time or another may have caused Bens cancer.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this whole thing and have to re-watch the episode...but some discussion of this theory came up after the NIP episode:

What if, for some reason the women on the island cannot bear children in their own uterus, so Juliet is actually implanting embryos in ANOTHER part of the body...The fetus grows fine until a certain point, but then, naturally, the body begins to reject the fetus because, well, it's not supposed to be in that part of the body.

This means that the embryo could also be implanted in men.

I didn't want to buy this at first, but now it sounds more possible based on some of the things they said last night. Many injections would be needed (hormones).

Correct me if there is something in the epis that would disprove this.

I just hope whatever the "answer" is, it's at least based in science--even if it dives into the realm of fiction a bit.

Kate is fine.

Her and Sawyer conceived on the Hydra Island not the main island :)
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YES!!!

The Island will kill Ben and the rest of the Others/Hostiles with Lockes help!

That's actually a decent point. Still, we don't know that the Hydra island doesn't share the same characteristics as the Losties island. In fact, it is probably the same land mass, you know?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this whole thing and have to re-watch the episode...but some discussion of this theory came up after the NIP episode:

What if, for some reason the women on the island cannot bear children in their own uterus, so Juliet is actually implanting embryos in ANOTHER part of the body...The fetus grows fine until a certain point, but then, naturally, the body begins to reject the fetus because, well, it's not supposed to be in that part of the body.

This means that the embryo could also be implanted in men.

I didn't want to buy this at first, but now it sounds more possible based on some of the things they said last night. Many injections would be needed (hormones).

Correct me if there is something in the epis that would disprove this.

I just hope whatever the "answer" is, it's at least based in science--even if it dives into the realm of fiction a bit.

Just to add to this--When Juliet says "It happens at conception" she could either be referring to when sperm fertilizes egg, or when fertilized egg implants. She would have to be referring to the latter in order for this theory to make sense...

1. Is it possible that Juliet is also pregnant now? She has obviously been performing
the proper procedures.

2. If it happens at conception then why not leave the island to have babies? Juliet alludes
to this when she says that she could do better work with better facilities off of the
island. Ben refuses. If having children is so important and the suspicion is that the
island is to blame, then why not leave the island to have children? Why the refusal
to do so?

2. If it happens at conception then why not leave the island to have babies? Juliet alludes
to this when she says that she could do better work with better facilities off of the
island. Ben refuses. If having children is so important and the suspicion is that the
island is to blame, then why not leave the island to have children? Why the refusal
to do so?

My personal theory is that no one can leave the island once they get there. Ben keeps up this illusion that people can come and go, but I think the tickets are all one-way. Even if this is not the case, the Others are a sort of cult who want to form a society on the island and don't want anyone on the outside--except their agents--to know they exist.

Cardie

I have a strong feeling that the healing forces on the island that ward off cancer and allows Locke to walk again are the same forces that are interfering with the proper development of babies.

Maybe the island's healing powers are more profound than we think... just maybe people on the island do not age. That would explain why a mother and her fetus do not go well together, it would be hard for a developing fetus to grow if the island stops the aging process and equally hard on the mother carrying the fetus.

Maybe the injections were given to Claire to counteract the island's "Fountain of Youth" powers if you will. Maybe the children were stolen so that they could be giving these same injections, so that they might have a chance to age to adulthood.

What if they synthesized sperm because its the men who are infertile but because it's a foreign body impregnating the women this is the cause of the immunity problem? Thus Juliet says it happens at conception?

This is also possible. When there is an issue of infertility, it is assumed that it is the woman's issue, but in 10-20% of the cases, there is a cross-incompatibility and the woman is "allergic" to the man's sperm. Seriously - it does happen. Physicians can get around this by in vitro fertilization, where they implant the already-fertilized embryo, but it isn't always successful.

So we still have plausible medical science explanations to consider. Who knew being an RN would be so helpful when watching this show??? :)

I assumed that the immune system response and it happens at conception were just medical babble by Juliet to hide the fact that Claire’s illness was caused by an implant. But since there are some medical people in this thread perhaps one of them can explain why a problem like this would affect only island people & not the wild life? If it is radiation or whatever why do we have all the little pigs running around, the rats & the other little etceteras? Shouldn't the wild life be eradicated by this kind of problem if it really exists? Unless it's something in the Dharma supplied food? Food laced with .....?:eek2:

I thought that Juliet told Ben it was conception, as well,....why then did Ben tell Juliet maybe she would find a pregnant woman on the 815?

If Juliet's theory is correct, then Claire would not be a candidate for her 'therapy'.

If Juliet's theory was incorrect,..then why did the Other's women stop having children? We saw that they all died, and nothing appeared during One of Us, to the contrary?

I think Juliet is lying about using her therapy on Claire. I think it is just what Ben said. They implanted something into Claire, which could be turned on, and off with medication.

It was all too coincidental that Claire did not get sick before Juliet arrived,...or after she leaves (if ever).

And, regarding Juliet's 'look",....her scowl at the end of One of Us, as she ties the rope in a harsh manner. At first I thought she was looking at somebody, then I realized that she had just looked at Jack, and turned, to tie the rope in that manner.

I now think Juliet hates Jack, and all of the Losties. The Losties are responsible for Goodwin's death, Juliet's lover. The Losties are responsible for blowing up the submarine, Juliet's only way home. The Losties are responsible for Juliet's branding.

Juliet has known nothing good to come from the Losties,...so I can see that she has turned all of her sadness, and hopelessness, toward hate of the Losties,...and more so, Jack,...because Jack trusts her, he can the one most hurt by her.

My personal theory is that no one can leave the island once they get there. Ben keeps up this illusion that people can come and go, but I think the tickets are all one-way. Even if this is not the case, the Others are a sort of cult who want to form a society on the island and don't want anyone on the outside--except their agents--to know they exist.
Cardie


I would think that this is true, but then we see Ethan and what's-his-name both on the
island and off of it and they seem to know the drill for going back and forth. The sub
trip seems routine to the crew of the sub, for instance.

Good heavens there is WAY TOO MUCH for my very small brain to absorb in this thread!! It's all so difficult anyway since every part of the story is directly tied or linked to another part so if we have questions about why one thing happened, the answer to that would affect the answer to another question....I CAN'T KEEP IT ALL STRAIGHT!!! Gahhhhh too much is going on in this story!!!

Danielle also arrived on the island pregnant, and we know she gave birth to Alex and survived. Karl is fairly young as well, so I wonder who his mother is.
I've been wondering about Karl too. Who is his mother? He's too young to have been recruited, so maybe his mom arrived on the island already pregnant, but who was she? And no wonder Ben was so against Alex having a boyfriend! Unprotected sex could really be dangerous on this island!

I hope Karl's origins do end up being important somehow. We haven't seen a lot of "young" people around. Maybe he was abducted as a child and his brainwashing was a way of trying to get him to fit in better with the Others? Or he's a Dharma child maybe?

I would think that this is true, but then we see Ethan and what's-his-name both on the
island and off of it and they seem to know the drill for going back and forth. The sub
trip seems routine to the crew of the sub, for instance.

The key is "seem to know." We have seen Ethan off the island prior to Juliet arriving and then we haven't seen him off it in the three years following his trip there with her. Alpert stays stateside until right before the 815 crash, then Ben tells him to come back, implying that he once left, but we have no proof of that.

I'm not saying my theory is unequivocally correct, but it hasn't been conclusively disproven either. We have to remember two things. One, the Others are actors and they stage little dramas complete with costumes and make-up in order to confuse their recruits and their island neighbors. Second, Ben is a liar intent on making his people believe they can always get off the island, but I'm not sure he's ever let anyone test out that promise.

If we find out where Michael and Walt went, then we'd know.

Cardie

Why don't the Others just set up an off-shore brothel/love hotel?? Problem solved :biggrin:

Lots of good ideas here. Let me give it a try...

Based on Juliet saying the "problem" starts at conception, that problem is an autoimmune disease, meaning the mother's immune system sees part of the mother as foreign, and begins attacking it, killing the mother. This is not totally unknown as others have pointed out though this is extreme.

In Season 2 Danielle was talking about a virus that killed the rest of the people on her boat. All except her. Lets assume she was pregnant when she arrived. Maybe her pregnancy saved her from this virus. I'm guessing the virus is an engineered virus that escaped during the "incident". It infected the Dharma people living on the island. The virus was meant to provide a heightened immune response resulting in no cancer and probably long life and resistance to radiation damage and great health. Such a person could survive better in a world full of nuclear fallout. So maybe Dharma was trying to create people who could survive WW3. It eventually worked, except when a woman becomes pregnant, her immune system, starting at conception, changes and starts attacking part of her own body, this heightened immune system now killing her and the unborn fetus. This is a big problem. If the Others cannot have babies, survival of WW3 is mute. So they bring in Juliet to fix this problem. Juliet says she cannot do this on the island, but Ben points out the Losties might be suitable geaunie pigs. Obviously you need infected people to study.

Once the Losties crash they are immediately infected by the virus. Many survive due to their new virus enhanced immune systems. Locke is healed. Wounds heal fast. Everyone is very healthy as Claire's unusual sickness help point out to me. I mean, really, after 90 days on an island and no one has a cold? Anyway, Juliet is at the Losties camp to continue her work. Remember that Ben, at the end, said to Juliet "see you in six days". So I guess she has six days to do her "job". I'm also thinking that Juliet is not happy about her job. Ben manipulates based on weaknesses. Juliet's is definitely her sister's health and baby. I think Juliet is doing bad things due to Ben's manipulation but will do anything for the promise of protecting her sister. I'm not convinced that Juliet is a true Other ... yet.

Presumably the virus is on the island and you catch it by being on the island but do not carry it. That is how they can go back and forth to the real world without worrying about giving the virus to the world.

As for smokey, seeing the future, polar bears, etc, I'm still stumped. Maybe the writers are giving us something we can finally figure out?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this whole thing and have to re-watch the episode...but some discussion of this theory came up after the NIP episode:

What if, for some reason the women on the island cannot bear children in their own uterus, so Juliet is actually implanting embryos in ANOTHER part of the body...The fetus grows fine until a certain point, but then, naturally, the body begins to reject the fetus because, well, it's not supposed to be in that part of the body.

This means that the embryo could also be implanted in men.

I didn't want to buy this at first, but now it sounds more possible based on some of the things they said last night. Many injections would be needed (hormones).

Correct me if there is something in the epis that would disprove this.

I just hope whatever the "answer" is, it's at least based in science--even if it dives into the realm of fiction a bit.

If Sawyer gets pregnant, I'm out.

Ive been thinking about this too, and if it happens at conception, what about Kate and Sawyer, dont remember any condoms being used, but then again it happened on the Alcatraz Island, does that count?

Ive been thinking about this too, and if it happens at conception, what about Kate and Sawyer, dont remember any condoms being used, but then again it happened on the Alcatraz Island, does that count?No it would not count. The Others have been around long enough for a few of them to have pulled a Kate & Sawyer on Alcatraz. If that worked they would not have needed to bring Juliet in to fix the problem.

Good point about the sub crew. They obviously came to the island and left and came again.

I thought that Juliet told Ben it was conception, as well,....why then did Ben tell Juliet maybe she would find a pregnant woman on the 815?

If Juliet's theory is correct, then Claire would not be a candidate for her 'therapy'.

If Juliet's theory was incorrect,..then why did the Other's women stop having children? We saw that they all died, and nothing appeared during One of Us, to the contrary?

I think Juliet is lying about using her therapy on Claire. I think it is just what Ben said. They implanted something into Claire, which could be turned on, and off with medication.

It was all too coincidental that Claire did not get sick before Juliet arrived,...or after she leaves (if ever).


I think Juliet's theory about the problem happening at conception is correct. I think she was lying to Jack about Claire showing "symptoms" and her illness in this last episode was caused by the implant, but I think she was telling the truth that Claire was her "control case". When she asked Ben to take a woman off the island, I got the impression she wanted a woman to conceive off-island so she could see if her theory was correct. Then Claire, a good candidate to test her hypothesis, shows up on the beach. I think they were treating Claire with Juliet's therapy, but only so all the conditions of Claire's pregnancy would be the same as the Other women who died, so Juliet could prove her theory.

If Sawyer gets pregnant, I'm out.

HAHA!! Now that WOULD be the TRUE "jumping the shark" moment eh???? :biggrin: