So . . . Mikhail is in charge of finding out the details of every person on flight 815. How do we explain the intimate information, like Sawyer killing a man in cold blood the night before he boarded the plane?

Something might have read Sawyer's mind. Something like The Smoke Monster. Maybe Mikhail used some of his equipment to tap into Smokey somehow.

so who watches the feeds now that the feeds and mikail have been blown, or was that thier only link to the outside world?

The question about Mikail's information on Sawyer is the most puzzling of this episode to me. It reallly has me scatching my head!
As far as I know, the smoke monster hasn't read Sawyer's mind unles it took the form of the boar.
I guess Mikail could have gotten documents that outlined things that Sayid did and eve what Kate's been accused of and so forth but Sawyer's last crime before he boarded the plane???!!! :confused:

Because sloppy writing is an unfortunate side effect of having a plot device as convenient as the Others' omniscience.

I thought about this too! The only thing I can think of is maybe the guy that told Sawyer where the real Sawyer would be is associated with the Others somehow. How else could they possibly know?

They probably discovered the body and sought Sawyer for murder after the plane crash.

Well...for all we know...much more info could have been gleened from the survivors long after the crash. The Others could have gotten a message from someone (Jacob?) that let them know that several people were purposely "steered" onto that flight...."Here are their dossiers...Should be a spinal surgeon...oh...and a pregnant chick. Have fun...keep me posted! - Love, Jacob "

It seemed pretty obvious they weren't exactly expecting 815 to crash. But that's not saying someone on the OUTSIDE world wasn't involved in making sure all these Losties were IN Austrailia...and making sure they were all on Flight 815 on Sept. 22nd.

Hibbs, for instance...who was the reason Sawyer went to Oz to "kill a man in cold blood"...could have been working with Hanso/Mittlewerk/Widmore/Piak/Dharma or any of the other possible links to the island....which is why Juliette NOW knows Sawyer killed Duckett right before he boarded the plane. She probably didn't have that knowlege the day of the crash...but possibly several weeks after the fact.

We may see a Ben flashback where...after his tumor was discovered...he appeals to HIS higher ups that he needs a spinal surgeon...and another pregnant woman to the island pronto!

Jack's dad could have "steered" Jack to Oz...by going there to die...or fake his own death. And Claire's psychic, Malkin, could have been her steering force...all working with...or for...or being forced to work for whomever is pulling the strinnngs "above" Ben.

When they needed ONE person to get to their secret island...Juliette...it was easy enough to get her there...drug her and strap her in. But when you need a BUNCH of people there...without letting them know where/why they are going...you put a bunch of people in a plane and have it crash on the island...and pray the ones Ben needed survive.

I think the lists he ordered Ethan & Goodwin to get him in 3 days...was a wink that, at the very least...Ben, Goodwin & Ethan KNEW a flight would be crashing soon...they just didn't know exactly when.

Just a theory...Heck...I dunno.

Because sloppy writing is an unfortunate side effect of having a plot device as convenient as the Others' omniscience.

That, or the Others have one hell of an information gathering system. IMO, the Others' know it all position could be based on the utilization of Cerberus, which has proven to "scan individuals" and produce memories.

This Jacob they mentioned tonight. Ben said that he would cure her sisters cancer. Maybe he has some powers that cure cancer and psychic abilites?

They probably discovered the body and sought Sawyer for murder after the plane crash.

That was my first thought as well, that the authorities in Australia had identified Sawyer as a suspect in the man's murder after the crash. Which means maybe Kate isn't the only one headed for prison if they get rescued???

They probably discovered the body and sought Sawyer for murder after the plane crash.

Good thought. What was the reason again that Sawyer was in custody in the Sydney police station?

Were all of his video screens about the crash missing flight 815?

Good thought. What was the reason again that Sawyer was in custody in the Sydney police station?
I thought he got in a fight...hit someone that was a "higher up" in Australia's government and got banned from the continent for life. Was he Australia's prime minsiter?

I forget. :confused:

It was the minister for agriculture, because us Aussies, we do a lot of farming. :rolleyes:

Because sloppy writing is an unfortunate side effect of having a plot device as convenient as the Others' omniscience.

Why say that? It would be easy for a giant corporation like these guys obviously have to connect the dots to Sawyer.

The Sawyer thing bugs me, too. Also, how long of a walk is it from the barracks to the Flame station? I wonder, because they are already getting media feeds about the missing plane. Seems a tad fast for the media to be informed that a plane is missing.

I thought he got in a fight...hit someone that was a "higher up" in Australia's government and got banned from the continent for life. :confused:

I believe that's true as well. Sawyer was at the station for fighting. I don't think he was under suspicion for murder whatsoever.

On another note . . . these video feeds - were they from numerous media outlets? And these dossier's they quickly whipped up . . . are we connected to various governments to get this sort of information so quickly?

The Sawyer thing bugs me, too. Also, how long of a walk is it from the barracks to the Flame station? I wonder, because they are already getting media feeds about the missing plane. Seems a tad fast for the media to be informed that a plane is missing.

total good point. they had people at the airport interviewing and the plane had just gone down - unless remember the pilot said they were 1000 miles off course - so it could have been suspected missing about an hour or so before the actual crash? Weird how they had video of the plane crashing - do they have cameras just pointed in every single direction in the sky or just like motion detecting cameras.

I found it funny that the communications guy never has his walkie talkie on. Lol.

I find it funny that who would Patchy normally be shoot at?

I don't find it weird that they had news on the missing flight so soon. These days channels like CNN and FoxNews are right on top of these stories.

I'm curious as to how Mikhail gathers all the info on the Losties. Do they fax over documents? Does someone leave the island to research and then come back. We know that Ben sent Richard to video Juliet's sister.

IMO, the Others' know it all position could be based on the utilization of Cerberus, which has proven to "scan individuals" and produce memories.

That's a good theory, but we didn't see Smokey scan everyone.

That's a good theory, but we didn't see Smokey scan everyone.


Not to rain on your parade but we hadnt seen Juliet til this year, yet she was on the island since before the crash. Meaning that it's not because we havent seen something happen on screen that it hasnt happened.

They've been on the island for 80+ days now, we have only witnessed 60 hours or thereabout.

total good point. they had people at the airport interviewing and the plane had just gone down - unless remember the pilot said they were 1000 miles off course - so it could have been suspected missing about an hour or so before the actual crash? Weird how they had video of the plane crashing - do they have cameras just pointed in every single direction in the sky or just like motion detecting cameras.

Well, there was footage of a plane, but it wasn't crashing, was it? If so, then they'd know where it was. But when a plane disappears off a radar, the news media can be writing about it pretty quickly. Remember that the TV news only reported that it had gone missing over the Pacific, not that it had crashed.

Regarding how Juliet knew about Sawyer's murder of Frank Duckett, I'm willing to guess that Sawyer was so bent on revenge that he didn't necessarily cover his tracks as well as he could have. For all we know, the Australian authorities had determined within days or weeks that he was responsible for the murder, and that could be how Juliet knew.

Fairly possible that the person Sawyer killed is somehow connected to the Others, if he was on Jacobs list they were probably watching him or something and saw it happen. Or he killed someone affiliated with them so they know. Not necessarily a mistake yet.

So . . . Mikhail is in charge of finding out the details of every person on flight 815. How do we explain the intimate information, like Sawyer killing a man in cold blood the night before he boarded the plane?

It's been 80 days since the crash. Even assuming that the swan implosion did take out the communications equipment, there is a good 60+ day window to dig up anyone's background. Who knows? Perhaps someone witnessed the murder and there was an APB (or whatever that's called) in Sydney for Sawyer. Sayid's background maybe a little harder, but if you have the means / resource, it's doable.
100%
total good point. they had people at the airport interviewing and the plane had just gone down - unless remember the pilot said they were 1000 miles off course - so it could have been suspected missing about an hour or so before the actual crash? Weird how they had video of the plane crashing - do they have cameras just pointed in every single direction in the sky or just like motion detecting cameras.

Not sure what video footage were you watching. There was definitely no video of the plan crashing. A widebody jet missing, i.e. gone out of radar scope, for hours is newsworthy enough. The news coverage only mentioned the plane gone missing. I thought there are unwritten rules in journalism that a plane has not crashed, and is only missing, unless wreckage has been found.

its quite possible that sawyer was manipulated into killing duckett by an agent of the others, but i guess they then knew he would be on that plane and that it was going to crash, yadda yadda

its quite possible that sawyer was manipulated into killing duckett by an agent of the others,

It was Hibbs who did the manipulating.
And it's more than plausible that Hibbs is an agent or hired hand for some large group with an agenda.
Hibbs knew Sawyer wasn't the killing type so likely leaned on the gun dealer to whom he sent Sawyer would need to nudge him too, with that whole "be sure you mean to kill" bit.

We know too that Hibbs was working this deal with "Tony", probably Anthony Cooper.

I'm in the camp believing that the murder had time to elapse and a suspect to be brought forth. It's completely plausible that the others go to hibbs and made him confess to Sawyer doing it...whatever.

Wow, nice call on "Tony" aka Cooper. It's been soo long since I've seen that one!

A lot of people keep stating that it's apparent that the others did not know the plane was going to crash, but from Ben's reactions and subtle statements, I would say that he DEFINITELY knew there would be a plane crash, knew what plane, and also knew who was on it, he just didn't know precisely when it was coming down.

His statements about a baby being on board, and the fact that the Ana-Lucia tailees were taken right off the bat the first night tells me that they already had lists in-hand.

As for the video feeds and intelligence about the losties, I think this is a clear statement that time behaves more slowly on the island than in the real world. Keys here are the statements at Mittelos about a 30 year old woman w/75 year old organs, and again the statement about :"time flies" when she was preparing to depart to craphole. If true, Juliette thinks she's been there 3 years, would actually find she's been there 7 1/2 years. If this were the case, and the comms timing in the flame were not affected by the time mismatch, the others could literally "see into the future relative to their own existence" when connecting to the outside world and would have 2 1/2 times more time to orchestrate reactions to events that influence causality.

I found it funny that the communications guy never has his walkie talkie on. Lol.

Heh - I took that as, "he never has his Walkie on him"

Maybe it was Mikhail's Walkie Paulo found in the Pearl, and his cigarettes in the ash tray. He was shown smoking wasn't he?

How Did They Know About Sawyer's Murder?
I think we're over thiking it. There is a simple explanation. Duckett's body is found the day before the crash and the police investigate. They identify Hibbs as a man that Duckett owed money. They begin to question him.

In the interim, Flight 815 crashes. Hibbs thinks Sawyer is dead. So Hibbs admits that he asked Sawyer to "lean" on Duckett for the money, but Sawyer got it in his head that Duckett had once slept with his mother, and shot him dead.

This all makes its way into a police report, which Mikhail finds and puts ni Sawyer's dossier.

Juliet confuses the day that Duckett's body is discovered with the day he is shot, which is why she claims Sawyer shot a man the day before leaving Australia.

And yes, if rescued, Sawyer will probably be charged with murder in Australia.

I thought there are unwritten rules in journalism that a plane has not crashed, and is only missing, unless wreckage has been found.


I've worked in journalism for more than a decade. That sort of unwritten rule would imply ethical standards, right? ;)

I still find the feeds curious.

1.) We are assuming that the pilot was speaking the truth when he said they lost contact 6.5 hours in and had been off course 1,000 miles by the time they crashed. I believe Ana Lucia mentioned something to the effect of being in the air all of two hours. (A thread about this discrepancy is out there. Do a search for Gregg Nations. I'd give a link but searching is disabled right now.)

2.) I do believe an airline would have to inform the news media through its own media-relatrions department that a plane is missing. I would think they would want to be really certain of the situation before they raise the alarm.

We have seen nothing to verify what the pilot said. So IMO the feeds are fishy. They may very well be genuine, happening in real world time. But I think something is off.

for what I can make of the feeds they say "search for flight 815" and "fligh disappearing over pacific ocean"

I find it interesting that it was someone named Richard filming Rachel and Julian. This could be Richard Alpert. Whoever it is, Ben tells them to get back quickly. I don't think that would ever happen with a submarine. They have to have a different way of getting on/off the island.

As for the video feeds and intelligence about the losties, I think this is a clear statement that time behaves more slowly on the island than in the real world...If this were the case, and the comms timing in the flame were not affected by the time mismatch, the others could literally "see into the future relative to their own existence" when connecting to the outside world and would have 2 1/2 times more time to orchestrate reactions to events that influence causality.

I've been thinking this for a while now, but hadn't been able to figure out how to say it in a clear way. You did that for me. Now, I don't know HOW the comms would be able to navigate the time discrepency, but when you're dealing with time-issues, pretty much anything goes. Also, perhaps their mode of travel allows them to pinpoint a particular time in their relative future to travel to.

However, I'm not thinking that any of that has to do with how Juliette knew about Sawyer's murder. It explains some other things, but in regards to Sawyer, I'm in the camp that's saying that the "Tony" Hibbs was working with was Cooper. That he coordinated with Hibbs to take out a mutual enemy and to get Sawyer off of Coopers back by making him think that he'd killed the original Sawyer (when in reality, Cooper is Sawyer.)

Regarding Sawyer shooting somebody before getting on 815,...did anybody think that perhaps it was reported,...as well as the crash?

There was an allusion to the movie "Armageddon" when Juliet was touching the video screen with her sister's image. It was just like Liv Tyler touching the video screen talking to her dad Bruce Willis before he blew up the asteroid.
I thought both scenes were poignant.