I 100% believe now that Ben knew the plane would crash or at least knew it was destined for that island. He is lying to *EVERYONE*, especially Juliet. She's all worried about the plane crash and what happened with their fight yesterday, and Goodwyn running off after the plane, and then Ben says they "have time" to talk. It was so obvious to me.

Do people still think the plane crash was an accident?
He knew he had a tumor. He knew Jack would be on that plane. I just know it.
His line to Mikhail about gathering data on all the survivors? I think he already knows it all!!!

Thoughts? I'm sure plenty of people will disagree with me.

I think Ben knew the plane was coming, though I still think it might have been designed to land safely.

Ben *could* have somehow gotten Kelvin to get Desmond away from the button (if he was in contact with Kelvin) so the EM would pull the plane down, but that seems like it would have risked the very people Ben wants - Jack, Claire and Aaron.

But either Ben knew it was coming, or he is just highly unflappable. :biggrin:

I can only dream that we'll get a Ben FB soon which will show him communication with Mikhail one-on-one and Kelvin one-on-one. He's just too omniscient about everything! He has to be the one pulling the strings.

It actually makes me wonder if there really is a so-called Jacob. Does he even exist? Maybe Ben created said Jacob just to manipulate the Others into thinking that Ben is just doing the bidding of someone else!

I have always believe that Ben knew the plane was coming.
With his remark to Juliet, about a pregnant woman being on the plane, just confirmed it for me

I have always believe that Ben knew the plane was coming.
With his remark to Juliet, about a pregnant woman being on the plane, just confirmed it for me

When he said that there might be a mother on the plane, I KNEW that he knew the plane was coming. But it makes me wonder... if they knew the plane was coming and they knew who was on it... then what's the purpose of the list? Weren't the people on the plane already "pre-selected" ? :confused:

I thought that maybe the crash was not part of the plan and they needed to know who survived.

I disagree. I think he knew something was coming (magic box style, or whatever way) and he knew that it would help him survive his tumor and probabaly knew that there would be amother on it... it seems the island provides what certain people needs and he knew it was coming but I dont think he could have known what. He would have to somehow be able to change fate completely to make all the random anomolys happen that brought that plane down

I don't buy it. With the magnet bringing the plane down, I don't think he could have known it was coming. I don't think that the statement about a pregnant woman being on the plane is that far-fetched. On a plane with a couple hundred or so people, it is very possible that there is a pregnant woman on board. And for a spinal surgeon on the plane, I think that we are supposed to take that one as being fate. Remember Ben making a statement about a spinal surgeon being on the plane as proof of God? I believe that may have been a genuine, introspective statement by Ben.

I thought that maybe the crash was not part of the plan and they needed to know who survived.

Right, I'm thinking this as well. Otherwise the lists aren't necessary.

Anyway, I think that he is constantly conning all of the Others, so anything he says cannot be trusted.

The research Mikael was doing made it seem that the crash was not pre-planned, for if it was planned they could have had a dossier already made on every passenger, and then just determine who had survived. And what a crapshoot that would be -- the spinal surgeon could have easily died. Even if there were some landing strip on the island. And where would a mile-long flat landing strip be on the island anyway?
I tend to think the crash was a true random accident (pulled down by the magnetic release) that the Others did not engineer. Rememeber, they did seem to be unaware of the Swan hatch's power.

The research Mikael was doing made it seem that the crash was not pre-planned, for if it was planned they could have had a dossier already made on every passenger.
What makes you think they didn't have one already?
Ben was just conning Juliet again.

Do people still think the plane crash was an accident?
He knew he had a tumor. He knew Jack would be on that plane. I just know it.
His line to Mikhail about gathering data on all the survivors? I think he already knows it all!!!

Thoughts? I'm sure plenty of people will disagree with me.

I think Ben knew that the plan was going to crash, and he might have known who was on the plane. ( remember Locke's dream in "Further Instructions" , in which Ben was the ticket taker at the airport. It was like Ben was in control of who gets on the plane.) Ben statement to Juliet about there being a pregnant lady on the plane, seem like he might have been aware that Claire was on that flight. Ben was also pretty sure that they were going to be survivor. Why when the crash was so bad?

I think Ben knew that the plan was going to crash, and he might have known who was on the plane. ( remember Locke's dream in "Further Instructions" , in which Ben was the ticket taker at the airport. It was like Ben was in control of who gets on the plane.) Ben statement to Juliet about there being a pregnant lady on the plane, seem like he might have been aware that Claire was on that flight. Ben was also pretty sure that they were going to be survivor. Why when the crash was so bad?

I think the key is the realization that Ben isn't just conning the Losties, he's conning everyone he comes into contact with. I'm not sure yet if he's the ultimate authority on the Island, but what if he is? What if he is telling the truth-he was in fact born on the Island and he is virtually unique in that way? That could suggest that everyone he comes in contact with is designed to serve his purposes, as narrow or broad as that may be. In order to maintain his stranglehold on power, he has had to resort to elaborate ruses over the years to not only sustain his community but ensure a steady supply of people and resources. In the end, Ben never can leave the Island, which is why he doesn't want anyone else to either. It's the one thing that he CAN'T do, which I think ties in nicely with Locke's often uttered refrain: Don't tell me what I can't do.

I don't know. I'm kind of leaning towards he didn't know. I think Jacob is making all this happen...If Jacob is in fact real.

I can only dream that we'll get a Ben FB soon which will show him communication with Mikhail one-on-one and Kelvin one-on-one. He's just too omniscient about everything! He has to be the one pulling the strings.

It actually makes me wonder if there really is a so-called Jacob. Does he even exist? Maybe Ben created said Jacob just to manipulate the Others into thinking that Ben is just doing the bidding of someone else!

Spoiler ahead:


Your post makes me wonder if in the upcoming "Man Behind the Curtain" that we'll find out, ala The Wizard of Oz, that there is not in fact a Jacob. He's a "God" created by Ben to help maintain his stranglehold on power. I was throwing around the idea that perhaps Jacob is actually J.A.C.O.B, a computer or some sort of artificial intelligence that Ben uses to manipulate the masses. Perhaps there's a master hatch that houses J.A.C.O.B that is revered by the Others and never approached, except by Ben, and than perhaps only rarely.

The research Mikael was doing made it seem that the crash was not pre-planned, for if it was planned they could have had a dossier already made on every passenger, and then just determine who had survived. And what a crapshoot that would be -- the spinal surgeon could have easily died. Even if there were some landing strip on the island. And where would a mile-long flat landing strip be on the island anyway?
I tend to think the crash was a true random accident (pulled down by the magnetic release) that the Others did not engineer. Rememeber, they did seem to be unaware of the Swan hatch's power.

I agree. Ben looked just as surprised by the plane breaking up in mid-air as the rest of the Others.

Its about the magic box metaphor guys

Ben wishes to be cured..he gets a surgeon fall out of the sky. They need another expecting mother---they get 2

I really dont think this is a mystery at this point. It seems quite clear this is what happened

The reason why so many survived the crash is explained by this too--along with Islands "Immediate" healing Locke talked about in his conversation with Ben

I don't think Ben knew a PLANE was coming, but I think he knew a surgeon would come because he wished on his little black box.
I think he was surprised it happened this way.

I wouldn't be suprised if at the end we find every one of them in a lab all connected to wires and find out their lives are being lived out matrix style - and there never was a plane crash, and there isn't an island... and the events that led up to the crash were also not really lived out... and they are all part of some experiment, and when they die, they get 'unplugged' from the experiment - maybe after accomplishing something or figuring something out in their lives... and maybe the whispers are people in the room who are making sure they are hooked up right and are administering the experiment....

Its about the magic box metaphor guys

Ben wishes to be cured..he gets a surgeon fall out of the sky. They need another expecting mother---they get 2

I really dont think this is a mystery at this point. It seems quite clear this is what happened

The reason why so many survived the crash is explained by this too--along with Islands "Immediate" healing Locke talked about in his conversation with Ben
I always thought the box was the island...

Its about the magic box metaphor guys

Ben wishes to be cured..he gets a surgeon fall out of the sky. They need another expecting mother---they get 2

Do you think this is truly magic, or is it a con? I agree with rabidranger: the whole thing is a con. Ben wants the Others (Locke included) to believe in the "magic box," and is pulling a Wizard of Oz (as some folks in other threads are saying) to make it look like wishes do come true. I'm still not sure why, but I bet it has something to do with keeping them on the island. Perhaps Ben can't live alone on the island, but he can't leave (or he'll die, maybe...), so he needs to keep the Others around. The Losties are only part of his plan in that he's using their appearance to con the Others into thinkning he can make a plane fall from the sky. Maybe they're a threat because they want so badly to leave the island.

FWIW, I totally believe Ben is the ultimate cause of the crash. How would he have known there would be survivors from something like that? How would he have got Mikhail working on the Losties' background checks so fast?

Its about the magic box metaphor guys

Ben wishes to be cured..he gets a surgeon fall out of the sky. They need another expecting mother---they get 2

I really dont think this is a mystery at this point. It seems quite clear this is what happened

The reason why so many survived the crash is explained by this too--along with Islands "Immediate" healing Locke talked about in his conversation with Ben

Funny that you say it's a metaphor... then explain it as being real. And no, it's not clear that what happened was "Ben wished for a surgeon and a pregnant lady and got them via plane crash." Honestly, I think that's the furthest thing from what is going on. Higher, philosophical way of looking at things--sure. But not what literally happened. If you could just wish for a spinal surgeon to come to your island against his will and have it happen, then you wouldn't need to go and actively pursue a fertility doctor to come do research on your island, you could just WISH her to be there like everything else. So, it doesn't have be a "mystery" and that doesn't have to be the explanation. I see much evidence for random plane crash and happenstance conveniences.

I have thought for a long time that the plane was supposed to come to the Island thye just didnt plan on Desmond not pushing the Button, and that is why the Pilot died because there wasnt supposed to be a crash, and Smokey was sent to shut him up, Cindy was probably in on it also because she kept the heat away from Goodwin long enough for the Others to get the kids and stuff, and then when she vanished right before Shannon was shot, she might have gone into the Underground tunnels to get to Otherville

I think Ben knew the plane was coming, though I still think it might have been designed to land safely.

Ben *could* have somehow gotten Kelvin to get Desmond away from the button (if he was in contact with Kelvin) so the EM would pull the plane down, but that seems like it would have risked the very people Ben wants - Jack, Claire and Aaron.

But either Ben knew it was coming, or he is just highly unflappable. :biggrin:

In which case sending Goodwin and Ethan to get the names of the survivors and geting Patchy to scour his sources for info on the passengers was also part of the deception.

More than likely, Ben did not know what was going to happen but was simply following 'protocol' for whenever people were shipwrecked on the Island. He was pretty quick to give Ethan and Goodwin the orders to infiltrate but that shows he can think quickly under pressure.

Funny that you say it's a metaphor... then explain it as being real.There is no "box", but if it is a metaphor, it must refer to something. The target of a metaphor can be quite real. ("All the world's a stage.").

People have been wishing things into existence since the first episode. I think that this "box" is something quite concrete; and usable. Like maybe precursor technology to the Infinite Improbability Drive. :biggrin: You get what you wish for, but always in a surprising way.

you could just WISH her to be there like everything else.And if you ran into obstacles along the way, you could wish her husband to be hit by a bus...

On the other hand, I have yet to be able to predict what is going to happen on this show. That's what makes it special!

--Väi