I think this made it pretty clear that Jacob was around before the Losties crashed, and that the Losties's crash was not foreseen. Therefore, Jacob is not any of the Losties. And, Jacob is in fact an actual person.

Thank you for posting this. I never gave much credit to those theories, so this slipped past me. All the same, I'll be glad to not have to hear those theories anymore. :p

I agree with your theory, but then where is this Jacob and why haven't we seen him?

I don't believe that Ben didn't know the plane would crash. I believe that he knew all along that it was coming and who would be on it. His line to Mikhail was just a con he was pulling on Juliet.

I agree that Jacob is not a Lostie. He might be Cooper. But more and more, I am starting to think that there is no Jacob. "Jacob" is a person that Ben created, so that the Others would think that he was doing the bidding of someone more superior than Ben. It would let them believe that Ben was also being forced to do the work of someone else, so they would feel more inclined to follow Ben's orders.

I don't believe that Ben didn't know the plane would crash. I believe that he knew all along that it was coming and who would be on it. His line to Mikhail was just a con he was pulling on Juliet.

I agree that Jacob is not a Lostie. He might be Cooper. But more and more, I am starting to think that there is no Jacob. "Jacob" is a person that Ben created, so that the Others would think that he was doing the bidding of someone more superior than Ben. It would let them believe that Ben was also being forced to do the work of someone else, so they would feel more inclined to follow Ben's orders.

I don't know about the planning of the crash or not. Clearly this episode wants us to believe that it was in fact just something that happened. Definitely arguments for Ben knowing of the plane crashing, but clearly other Others were ignorant.

I do, however, think Jacob is an actual person. When he references him to Juliet, it is delivered with implied meaning to her. Just the impact of the hearing Jacob and a promise did it for her. I think she definitely has met him or been very convinced of his doings. I just don't think that she'd still be going on trust of a "Jacob" at that point, without ever seeing him.

I disagree, and just posted this in another thread... I still think it could be Jack.

Juliet and Ben were discussing her sister and the fact that Jacob would see to it that she was OK. At this point, the plane hasn't crashed. Jack is still in the real world, and as a doctor can attend to her sister. Jacob is a nickname for Jack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_%28name%29).

I have a feeling Jacob is Richard Alpert. He did recruit Juliet for the island..

I disagree, and just posted this in another thread... I still think it could be Jack.

Juliet and Ben were discussing her sister and the fact that Jacob would see to it that she was OK. At this point, the plane hasn't crashed. Jack is still in the real world, and as a doctor can attend to her sister. Jacob is a nickname for Jack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_%28name%29).

So you believe that Juliet just has complete trust and faith in someone that she never saw/met or had any contact with, only heard about?

She completely stopped arguing when Ben delivered the line. It was hands down enough to flat out convince her. I really really really really really doubt that it was done with something that she's basing off of nothing. My opinion.

I like that theory on Jack being Jacob, however, I am kind of leaning Towards a Wizard of OZ, Jacob being made up by Ben.

So you believe that Juliet just has complete trust and faith in someone that she never saw/met or had any contact with, only heard about?
It's been known to happen.. In literature - The Wizard of Oz.. In life - Jesus Christ.. God..

It's been known to happen.. In literature - The Wizard of Oz.. In life - Jesus Christ.. God..

It happens cause millions of other people believe too. Juliet would be pretty much alone on this. No one she's close to would be sharing this belief, which is huge. Any/every person in her situation who didn't have proof of a Jacob would be more than skeptical. Just makes much much more sense for her to have proof.

I...But more and more, I am starting to think that there is no Jacob. "Jacob" is a person that Ben created, so that the Others would think that he was doing the bidding of someone more superior than Ben. It would let them believe that Ben was also being forced to do the work of someone else, so they would feel more inclined to follow Ben's orders.

This is what I'm beginning to believe too, LostLaura. It's almost got a "Wizard of Oz" feel to it, doesn't it??

This is what I'm beginning to believe too, LostLaura. It's almost got a "Wizard of Oz" feel to it, doesn't it??

If Ben made up Jacob, why would Pickett (who would never have seen Jacob) say, "Shepherd wasn't even on Jacob's list?" Clearly he would only get word of "Jacob's list" from Ben. And why would Ben tell them that Jack wasn't on the list when he in fact needed Jack so desperately?

I don't believe that Ben didn't know the plane would crash. I believe that he knew all along that it was coming and who would be on it. His line to Mikhail was just a con he was pulling on Juliet.

I agree that Jacob is not a Lostie. He might be Cooper. But more and more, I am starting to think that there is no Jacob. "Jacob" is a person that Ben created, so that the Others would think that he was doing the bidding of someone more superior than Ben. It would let them believe that Ben was also being forced to do the work of someone else, so they would feel more inclined to follow Ben's orders.

i certainly do like this theory

If Ben made up Jacob, why would Pickett (who would never have seen Jacob) say, "Shepherd wasn't even on Jacob's list?" Clearly he would only get word of "Jacob's list" from Ben. And why would Ben tell them that Jack wasn't on the list when he in fact needed Jack so desperately?

faith dude, faith
Most, if not all the Others, must have a great deal of faith to continue doing what they believe is for the greater good....it's not much of a stretch to believe that they would believe it on faith

and as to why Ben would tell them Jack wasn't on the list.....
"the List' is something seen as above Ben,
it wasn't put together to save Ben,
it's importance has a much bigger meaning

This is what I'm beginning to believe too, LostLaura. It's almost got a "Wizard of Oz" feel to it, doesn't it??

Intriguing. I've suspected for a long time that the Others were actors - they've got costumes, they adopt fake names and/or life histories, cause fake illnesses, and abandon and strike their "sets" when the Losties find them (med hatch, barracks, fake camp). I'm not entirely sure how this matches up with the Wizard of Oz theory - for example, who would Ben be trying to dupe, and why? The guy who pretended to be the Wizard had conned the people of Oz into thinking he was all-powerful. So who is Ben trying to convince? If it's the Losties, I can think of better ways to con them than dropping the name of a powerful leader of a group of people they don't even know. Anyway, what would be the point? I'm a little more ready to believe that it's most of the Others who are being hoodwinked, perhaps into staying on the island (as Ben pretty much said 2 episodes ago). I guess that would be analogous to the Wizard of Oz scenario. But then, what would be the point of the elaborate ruses that seem designed to fool the Losties - the costumes, for example?

I know, this is all half baked and rambly. But the fact that the show lends itself to midnight musings is why I keep watching!

and as to why Ben would tell them Jack wasn't on the list.....
"the List' is something seen as above Ben,
it wasn't put together to save Ben,
it's importance has a much bigger meaning

My point was, Pickett said this ("shepherd wasnt even on Jacob's list") as if to justify him going against Ben. So, why would Ben falsely create something that goes against him? Whether people realize it goes above Ben or not, if it's ultimately Ben's creation and nonexistent, why create the discrepancies? Doesn't add up to me that Ben "made up" Jacob. Makes much more sense that he exists.

Also, when Ben (Henry Gale at the time) talks about the leader and him being a wonderful man, I really do think he's talking about Jacob and NOT himself. And why would he speak to the Losties about Jacob if Jacob wasn't even real and they had no investment in him... So, like I said, just makes sense that's there's actually a Jacob that Ben answers to and/or follows.

She completely stopped arguing when Ben delivered the line. It was hands down enough to flat out convince her.

I'm not so sure.
I took Ben's statement to be more like, "Jacob says he has it covered,
and I know you wouldn't dare suggest that he can't save your sister:
that would be blasphemy."

I must of misunderstood you Kevn
sorry about that
and i totally agree that Ben wasn't talking about himself

But i do believe it to be possible Ben has conjured up this non-existant bigger than life symbol for all to believe in.

I'm inclining towards the theory that Jacob is a Big Brother style illusion designed to instill loyalty and reverence, or else a significant and as yet unseen off-island personage.

The only other candidate suggested by last night's show is...Goodwin. We don't know his first name (I keep thinking it's Murray because my brain links that surname with the Zimbabwean cricketer Murray Goodwin) and its very invocation resonated instantly with Juliet.

I still see the great possibility that there really is a Jacob and he really can miraculously cure cancer, perhaps utilizing the same technology or phenomenon that we see on the island. Why? Because Locke can walk, Rose was cured, and Des can see the future. All of these things are somewhat miraculous. If they can occur, then it is feasible that the leader of this place can do the same for people in other places perhaps.

I think wherever Locke is heading we'll see Jacob.

I think wherever Locke is heading we'll see Jacob.

Yeah I'm really really really hoping that we'll finally see Jacob by the season finale.

I disagree, and just posted this in another thread... I still think it could be Jack.

Juliet and Ben were discussing her sister and the fact that Jacob would see to it that she was OK. At this point, the plane hasn't crashed. Jack is still in the real world, and as a doctor can attend to her sister. Jacob is a nickname for Jack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_%28name%29).
I'm looking for that thread...
By the by, love your Knut avatar. Thanks for the petition links, they now have another supporting signature. Good causes!

I like the theory that Jacob is Jack. It wouldn't be necessary for Jacob to actually cure Juliette's sister if the cancer never returned and it was a ruse to force Juliette to stay on the island. Ben was playing on Juliette's emotions (her sis most important thing to her).

Hmmm... Not finding the thread... I'm really interested to see the logic chain that leads to this conclusion! It's a theory I've not heard before and one I'd never have thought of.

Hmmm... Not finding the thread... I'm really interested to see the logic chain that leads to this conclusion! It's a theory I've not heard before and one I'd never have thought of.It's just a quick post here (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=75788).. But the logic chain would be:

Jack's tattoo - "He walks among us but is not one of us".... Achara comments that "he is a leader, but that makes him lonely"

As I mentioned above, Jacob is a nickname for Jack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_%28name%29).

Pickett mentioned that Jack wasn't on "Jacob's list". It would make sense that you wouldn't put yourself on your own list.

And lately I've been watching Lost with the assumption that Jack should be looked at with some scrutiny, and it fits. Last week, he could have been lying in his house, waiting for Kate to discover him knocked out from gas. Just a strong feeling...

It's just a quick post here (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=75788).. But the logic chain would be:

Jack's tattoo - "He walks among us but is not one of us".... Achara comments that "he is a leader, but that makes him lonely"

As I mentioned above, Jacob is a nickname for Jack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_%28name%29).

Pickett mentioned that Jack wasn't on "Jacob's list". It would make sense that you wouldn't put yourself on your own list.

And lately I've been watching Lost with the assumption that Jack should be looked at with some scrutiny, and it fits. Last week, he could have been lying in his house, waiting for Kate to discover him knocked out from gas. Just a strong feeling...
Thanks for the response- lazy me. Didn't look hard enough.:)
It's an interesting and imaginative theory- something to consider when sifting through all the slippery clues and red herrings. I do agree that there is something dodgy about our Jack.
I wondered too whether Jacob might a 'Good Woman of Szechuan' sort of thing, made up by :confused:, as I posted before. So many possibilities. Hopefully, we'll all get to learn about Jacob before the season ends.

I don't believe that Ben didn't know the plane would crash. I believe that he knew all along that it was coming and who would be on it.
Agree and disagree. I don't believe Ben knew the plane would crash. I do believe he knew it was coming. I suspect it was probably expected to land wherever Juliet's plane landed and the people on Jacob's list brought to the island by sub just like Juliet.


Jack's tattoo - "He walks among us but is not one of us".... Achara comments that "he is a leader, but that makes him lonely"
As I mentioned above, Jacob is a nickname for Jack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_%28name%29).
Pickett mentioned that Jack wasn't on "Jacob's list". It would make sense that you wouldn't put yourself on your own list.
All good points but Jack is way too young to have influenced Mikhail. Unless Dharma did, in fact, create some kind of youth elixer, I don't think Jack could be Jacob.

I believe Jacob is or was a real person because of Mikhail's belief in him. If the "Wizard of Oz" theory is true, it is because the real Jacob is dead. Possible, because it would work to Ben's advantage to keep him "alive" and Ben did choose the name Henry Gale when he ventured to the beach. It is too soon to tell.

What about the psychic that sent Claire to the island? He manipulated her right onto the plane that brought her there, going as far as giving her the dang ticket. Claire was obviously crucial to what Ben's group was trying to accomplish, better get the head honcho out there to make sure she comes. He has already shown island like abilities without being on the island. A long shot, but maybe he is Jacob?

I agree that perhaps Jack is Jacob ... maybe it all ties in with the Lost Time (Mittelos) thing and Jacob is actually future-Jack..?

The producers have said that the season finale will be a Jack-shock... so what about that we finally see Jacob and ... he looks just like Jack? Perhaps an older Jack?

Maybe what's actually happening on the island is that Jacob is, for some reason, trying to stop an event that would happen in Jack's future (Jacob's past)?

There are several things which seemed strange but which Jacob could've orchestrated... for example, maybe Jacob knew that Kate was "bad" in some way and that she'd cheat on Jack in the future or something like that... so he took her, Sawyer and Jack as captivates, kept Jack away from them and he orchestrated things so that Sawyer and Kate would get it on while Jack was watching...? Thereby trying to turn Jack against Kate (sloppy seconds and all that).

I dunno... it makes sense in some ways but in others it doesn't.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh .

I like that theory on Jack being Jacob, however, I am kind of leaning Towards a Wizard of OZ, Jacob being made up by Ben.

I think Ferdo is on to something. I do not believe that Jacob is an actual person. I believe he is the name for a behind-the-scenes Wizard of Oz group of people who can make things happen.

Sorry to ask something that probably been discussed to death already, but searching has been disabled...

Can someone remind me when we first learned of Jacob? Is there a thread you can direct me to?

thanks!

Since we know that Ben is a master manipulator...why wouldn't he conjur up a non-existent leader? It's apparent that he does have someone working for him on the outside do they know of the con too? It's becoming obvious to me now that all of these scientists are here to solve some problem as it relates to Ben. He's using them for his own goal...but what?

Ben is just like the Wizard of OZ Henry Gale. The man behind the scenes pretending there is someone else running the show.

... Jacob is a nickname for Jack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_%28name%29).

reverse that...Jack is a nickname for Jacob.

Since we know that Ben is a master manipulator...why wouldn't he conjur up a non-existent leader? It's apparent that he does have someone working for him on the outside do they know of the con too? It's becoming obvious to me now that all of these scientists are here to solve some problem as it relates to Ben. He's using them for his own goal...but what?

Exactly. Think about it, if Ben is the ultimate authority on the Island, any detractors would only have to take him out to create change. Ben knows this, so to keep his stranglehold on power creates an artificial hierarchy with Jacob at the top. If something happens to Ben, big, bad Jacob will come down from the mountain and exact vengence. I think it's very possible Jacob isn't a real person at all.

Sorry to ask something that probably been discussed to death already, but searching has been disabled...

Can someone remind me when we first learned of Jacob? Is there a thread you can direct me to?

thanks!

Jacob, as a name, first came up in "I Do" when Pickett says, "Shepherd isn't even on Jacob's list!"

Jacob is again referenced in the spooky video Karl was being forced to watch, and again by Karl after escaping Alcatraz.

It is reasonable to assume that Jacob is the mysterious "Him" referenced by several of the Others during the course of the show, notably by Ben in captivity as Henry Gale, and Mikheal just before he is killed.

Exactly. Think about it, if Ben is the ultimate authority on the Island, any detractors would only have to take him out to create change. Ben knows this, so to keep his stranglehold on power creates an artificial hierarchy with Jacob at the top. If something happens to Ben, big, bad Jacob will come down from the mountain and exact vengence. I think it's very possible Jacob isn't a real person at all.

I disagree. Someone with ENORMOUS resources is behind all this. Someone who can create cover companies like Mittelos and Herarat, someone who can get a satellite placed into orbit. Someone who can create and hide an operation the size of the Others. Ben's been on the Island his whole life... he wouldn't have the money, the know-how or the connections. There are only two people like that we've seen--Widmore and Paik.

Given that the Others all speak English, Jacob must be Charles Widmore.

Jack is a spinal surgeon, not an onologist or neonatologist. Jack is short for John, not Jacob. I know a lot of Jacob's and none of them are called Jack. Further, we have seen nothing in Jack's past to suggest that he is Jacob. When Jacob was helping Rachel, supposedly, Jack was workinga s a spinal surgeon in a hospital with his dad. Unless this is some really screwed up time loop/alternate reality show, Jack cannot be Jacob.

This show has a Wizard of Oz feel to it, so maybe there is no Jacob. I just really hate the "Jack is Jacob" theories. I don't want this show to be about a future Jack manipulating past events to change the future. That we be jsut a rehash of a hundred sci fi movies. TPTB can do better than that.

Ben is just like the Wizard of OZ Henry Gale. The man behind the scenes pretending there is someone else running the show.

This has been mentioned in another thread... Henry Gale was Dorothy's uncle and had nothing to do with the Wizard. In the movie, the Wizard was played by the same man who played Professor Marvel, the 'fortune teller' who convinces Dorothy that Aunt Em was sick so she's better return home instead of running away. Professor Marvel is a charletain and so is the Wizard... just a man behind the curtain pulling levers and putting on a show.

If anything, the fact that Ben took the name Henry Gale on (and rememebr, there was an actualy Henry Gale -- didn't they find his license and buried body?) kind of hints to me, at least that he is not the Wizard -- not the man behind the curtain putting on a show. Jacob would be that man.

However, going further with this, one could argue that if Jacob is the charletain -- the man behind the curtain -- the FAKE, then maybe Ben really is in charge and Jacob is a figurehead.

Dunno if any of this makes sense... feel free to pick it apart.

Thanks!

Jacob might be an actual person we haven't seen yet. I'm supposing we haven't seen him because he's not on the island.

Ben could actually be using smokey to manifest a "Jacob" for the others to follow...could fall in line with the Wizard of Oz theory.

Jacob either:
1) exists and has been on the island for a long time;
2) exists and travels back and force (could have been on 815)
3) is a fictitious idol, invented [by Ben, maybe] with the purpose of having the Others (especially new recruits) "play ball"; and the metaphorical "box" is how they "prove" Jacob's greatness

If real, Jacob would have to have strong leader qualities, charm, charisma, and a fundamental view on things. IMO, it is definitely not Jack because we saw the scenes where the Others try to coerce him, and Jack made some clear errors in judgment while in captivity. It would be cool if we had already seen Jacob; it would make for a good reveal.

Could it be Christian Shepherd? Not likely, he's dead. And if he's not, he's still too flawed to be revered the way Jacob is.
Anthony Cooper? Cooper's a [bleep] and a liar. He might be able to convince people he's good for a short time, but he's only in it for a payoff. Plus, they know what Cooper did to Locke, so why would they hold him in high esteem.

So how about someone we've only briefly met or heard of? Danielle's husband Robert, perhaps? But then why would he give his daughter Alex to Ben to raise. Could be Alpert, but he doesn't really blow you away as a character.

How about the psychic that Claire went to and Eko investigated? I'm sure he'll turn up again in one way or another.

I just can't buy the whole Jack is Jacob thing. I would have to see a lot more -- I don't know what but something is missing. That just doesn't feel like it fits right.

I definitely think SOMEBODY knew that plane was coming and crashing (or intentionally made it crash which Desmond may or may not have caused and may or may not have been used to cause) because too many of those people are way too closely connected for it to be a coincidence. I mean I know we're following the six-degree theory but too many of these people are like three-degrees of separation lol!!

Okay so... for the people that think Jacob is just a name:

Ben has done 1 of 2 things regarding Jacob. Either he has shown his followers Jacob, or he has just spoken of him and what he can do -- because everyone seems to be on the same page when "Jacob" is referenced. Now, if you want someone to believe something, you still have to give them reason to believe it. Just because Ben tells them that there is someone named Jacob who does stuff, stuff which they never have seen, would not be reason for anyone to have unwavering faith. Yet, they do. This has to has to has to HAS TO mean that they have seen the results of said Jacob, whether they have met him or not. They had to have been shown something in order to lay all their faith into a Jacob (Assuming they never saw an actual Jacob). So, if they have been given proof of what can be done by "Jacob," then what does it matter if he's a real person or not? There is still something that can do what Ben tells them that Jacob can do. Everyone isn't just simply going on blind faith. They just aren't. It has been going on for years. If Jacob was never seen or his actions never witnessed, how would anyone have any reason to keep believing it? No one even questions it. So if there's something that can do what "Jacob" does, then why create a fake guy to take the credit?

I disagree, and just posted this in another thread... I still think it could be Jack.

Juliet and Ben were discussing her sister and the fact that Jacob would see to it that she was OK. At this point, the plane hasn't crashed. Jack is still in the real world, and as a doctor can attend to her sister. Jacob is a nickname for Jack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_%28name%29).

If Rachel's cancer came back, I feel compelled to point out that Jack is not an Oncologist, and therefore wouldn't be treating anyone's cancer. He's a spinal surgeon.

I think Jacob could well be Widmore, and Christian, does not matter if now dead or alive, is connected in same way and cured Rachel cancer...

Didn't Patchy laugh in their faces when our losties suggested that Ben was the leader?

I also remember TPTB telling us "EVERYTHING that patchy told us, besides the fact that he was a Dharma, was true"...

Simplify it. Jacob is eiher a real person or a manifestation of Ben, the "Wizard of Oz" theory that I have seen so many times.

If it is a real person, I believe it is a person that has yet to be shown and could be where Ben, Locke, and the gang went for reason unknown at the time.

Okay so... for the people that think Jacob is just a name:

Ben has done 1 of 2 things regarding Jacob. Either he has shown his followers Jacob, or he has just spoken of him and what he can do -- because everyone seems to be on the same page when "Jacob" is referenced. Now, if you want someone to believe something, you still have to give them reason to believe it. Just because Ben tells them that there is someone named Jacob who does stuff, stuff which they never have seen, would not be reason for anyone to have unwavering faith. Yet, they do. This has to has to has to HAS TO mean that they have seen the results of said Jacob, whether they have met him or not. They had to have been shown something in order to lay all their faith into a Jacob (Assuming they never saw an actual Jacob). So, if they have been given proof of what can be done by "Jacob," then what does it matter if he's a real person or not? There is still something that can do what Ben tells them that Jacob can do. Everyone isn't just simply going on blind faith. They just aren't. It has been going on for years. If Jacob was never seen or his actions never witnessed, how would anyone have any reason to keep believing it? No one even questions it. So if there's something that can do what "Jacob" does, then why create a fake guy to take the credit?

i really just can't believe you don't see the possibility that he's just a figure as opposed to a real person. (not saying he is or is not, cause we just can't be sure at this point)
but i do believe you should have more of an open mind

We have no proof Juliet has ever met Jacob.
Ben tells her that he will have Jacob cure her sister's cancer.
Ben then shows Juliet a video of her sister all healthy and with child.
Does this prove Jacob exists? Does this prove Jacob can cure cancer?
Of course not. But if you believe Ben and trust him, you would now have faith in Jacob. (again, maybe Juliet has faith in Jacob, maybe she does not, we just don't know)
I sure wouldn't put it past Ben to have lied about Juliet's sister's cancer returning, just to manipulate her......

Ben is a Master Manipulator and could easily, very easily, decided the best way keep his troops inline would be to give the illusion of a great person whom they all serve.
Ben could have told everyone that Jacob is the provider of this Island, and all the special qualities that come with it.....Jacob has given everyone a chance to play their part in all this, which will result in......and that's where the big ? comes into play. We still don't know exactly why the Others are on this island......what is their purpose?
Well this 'purpose' could be exactly what Jacob has given them, and they are willing to work to get it, and have faith so that they may achieve it.

It's the basic premise behind almost every Cult in the world today.
One does not need to see in order to believe.

Didn't Patchy laugh in their faces when our losties suggested that Ben was the leader?

I also remember TPTB telling us "EVERYTHING that patchy told us, besides the fact that he was a Dharma, was true"...

Yep, and Mikhail also said that he was recruited by a great man right before he scoffed at Ben. If Jacob exists, Mikhail seems to have some firsthand knowledge of him.

Okay so... for the people that think Jacob is just a name:

Ben has done 1 of 2 things regarding Jacob. Either he has shown his followers Jacob, or he has just spoken of him and what he can do -- because everyone seems to be on the same page when "Jacob" is referenced. Now, if you want someone to believe something, you still have to give them reason to believe it. Just because Ben tells them that there is someone named Jacob who does stuff, stuff which they never have seen, would not be reason for anyone to have unwavering faith. Yet, they do. This has to has to has to HAS TO mean that they have seen the results of said Jacob, whether they have met him or not. They had to have been shown something in order to lay all their faith into a Jacob (Assuming they never saw an actual Jacob). So, if they have been given proof of what can be done by "Jacob," then what does it matter if he's a real person or not? There is still something that can do what Ben tells them that Jacob can do. Everyone isn't just simply going on blind faith. They just aren't. It has been going on for years. If Jacob was never seen or his actions never witnessed, how would anyone have any reason to keep believing it? No one even questions it. So if there's something that can do what "Jacob" does, then why create a fake guy to take the credit?

You raise some good points, but history has shown that idea is just as good a motivator as a real person. It goes back to the Wizard of Oz angle. Everyone in that "world" assumed that behind the booming voice and pyrotechnics there was a great and benevolent man. The power and influence of the Wizard was felt by everyone. In the end though, it was a much less imposing fraud masquerading as such. I think the same thing could be going on with Jacob. He's an entity created by Ben to help him maintain his stranglehold over the Island and the Others. For all we know, there might even be a location on the Island where Jacob lives, but is never seen.

we have seen Jacob before, we're just all forgetting....

hint he only has 4 toes :laughing:

I remember growing up that one man was responsible for alot of the bad things in the world, and I think that he is playing an integral role on the island, orchestrating all of this. That man is none other than

yep, you guessed it...Frank Stallone

i really just can't believe you don't see the possibility that he's just a figure as opposed to a real person. (not saying he is or is not, cause we just can't be sure at this point)
but i do believe you should have more of an open mind

In my post I said that he could be just a name and not real, but I just didn't believe that to be the case. It's possible, it just doesn't make as much sense to me as the opposite does.

We have no proof Juliet has ever met Jacob.Right. Because we haven't seen Jacob ourselves. So we theorize that maybe he doesn't exist. That said, don't you see how this line of thinking would be so forthcoming? If Juliet never saw Jacob... why isn't she like us and questioning his existence!?!?

...Because she has some evidence that we aren't privy to.

Ben tells her that he will have Jacob cure her sister's cancer.
Ben then shows Juliet a video of her sister all healthy and with child.
Does this prove Jacob exists? Does this prove Jacob can cure cancer?
Of course not. But if you believe Ben and trust him, you would now have faith in Jacob. I'm not saying Ben wasn't conning Juliet there, but he would realistically have to do that to each and every person he is lying to about Jacob. And Ben didn't even give her confirmation about this until two and half years later, right? Not exactly an efficient con, if you ask me.

Also, more importantly, Juliet was convinced of Jacob before this event, that's why she went along with it.

Ben is a Master Manipulator and could easily, very easily, decided the best way keep his troops inline would be to give the illusion of a great person whom they all serve.
Ben could have told everyone that Jacob is the provider of this Island, and all the special qualities that come with it.....Jacob has given everyone a chance to play their part in all this, which will result in......and that's where the big ? comes into play. We still don't know exactly why the Others are on this island......what is their purpose?
Well this 'purpose' could be exactly what Jacob has given them, and they are willing to work to get it, and have faith so that they may achieve it.

Am I wrong to assume that you basically don't think that the island can help people/do special things? If you agree that the island is capable of such things, then it's pointless whether Jacob is real or not, because there's still an entity that does what Ben says Jacob can do. And then the only con involved is people thinking that a person exists when in fact it's not a person, but something else. And that con is also pointless. Why convince people that a person can do special things when it's really something else that's doing them? So, you have to believe that there are no special things being done, right? Because if you think that special things are happening, then the whole idea of creating a fake person who can do these things just to trick people into believing they're happening when nothing actually is... makes no sense.

It's the basic premise behind almost every Cult in the world today.
One does not need to see in order to believe.

You are right, because I do not need to see Jacob in order to believe that he's a real person. I have been given enough evidence to convince me of it.

If I turn out to be wrong, then I was tricked just like they were.

I agree with your theory, but then where is this Jacob and why haven't we seen him?

Because an omnipotent Godlike figure that no-one (except Ben) ever sees is a great way for Ben to control the Others' community.

Why convince people that a person can do special things when it's really something else that's doing them?


One possible answer is that you would do that if (for whatever reason) you didn't really want them to know what that something else actually is. It could be something that they would find disturbing or revolting, something that you wanted to hide.

That being said, I do believe that Jacob is a real person, and "he" is not Jack.

It's Hurley! You heard it here first :)

I tried to get the dialog from "One of Us", at www.losthatch.com, but it's not available yet.

It a great site to see what was said in each episode.

Anyway, last night, initially when talking to Juliet about Rachel's cancer returning, Ben said (paraphrasing everything since I cannot find the transcript),...that Jacob would cure Rachel, if Juliet stayed with the Others.

Then, later on in the show, I swear Ben said, or directly alluded, that he (Ben) saved Rachel. I thought,...didn't he mean Jacob? I thought it was a mistake that the continuity people did not catch,...but, then again,.....was it?

Jacob= Alvar Hanso

He hasn't been seen for 30 years, he could be on the island hiding somewhere.

Jacob must be a real live person. Too many people have talked about meeting him for it to be otherwise, including Mikhail, who said that he had met "a very great man" (meaning Jacob), who recruited him.

I also think that Jacob is the one who is running the "Box", whatever that may be, and even if it is just allegorical and not a real tangible object. I think that this is how they were able to cure Rachel of her cancer. I think this is how they were able to do a lot of the things they have done. And I think that Walt's special abilities must have scared the pants off of whoever was running the Box (Jacob?), and that's why they got rid of him.

I think Jacob is Ben's father....just like in the Bible.

Jacob was the father of the 12 tribes of Israel, and one of his son's was named Benjamin. Therefore, just as Jacob was their leader, in the same sense, he is also the real leader of the Others.

I know a lot of Jacob's and none of them are called Jack.

I know two Jacobs that are called Jack.
Which doesn't prove anything, except that none of us knows.

I know two Jacobs that are called Jack.
Which doesn't prove anything, except that none of us knows.

As always with these questions......who REALLY knows?? I decided after last season of 24 and watching the entire Alias series that nobody can ever prove to me someone is dead on a TV show. Someone else can always prove they were really alive the whole time! The only thing you can really do is share theories and see what happens when it's all said and done!

I don't see any way that Jack is Jacob.

Alvar Hanso is from Dharma and haven't TPTB assured us that Dharma and the Others are NOT friends?

I think Jacob has to be Penny's father. The money, the power, etc.

i

We have no proof Juliet has ever met Jacob.
Ben tells her that he will have Jacob cure her sister's cancer.
Ben then shows Juliet a video of her sister all healthy and with child.
Does this prove Jacob exists? Does this prove Jacob can cure cancer?
Of course not. But if you believe Ben and trust him, you would now have faith in Jacob. (again, maybe Juliet has faith in Jacob, maybe she does not, we just don't know)
I sure wouldn't put it past Ben to have lied about Juliet's sister's cancer returning, just to manipulate her......

.

Here is the thing I never see anyone mention in relation to Jacob

Issac--the man who used the geological magnetic forces to heal people. This man was portrayed as being the real deal

TPTB have already said Jacob is a biblical reference. You should know Issac is Jacobs father in the bible.

Armed with this knowledge we know Jacob is real and CAN HEAL people just as Issac can. So there is no point in doubting Rachels healing. I am not saying Isaac is related to jacob..Im saying he is a prototype/antitype of the much greater and evil Jacob

His list is most likely based on genetics. It's obviously not based on virtue as the Other believe. That is just a con by Jacob to make them feel special and worthy--as most cult leaders do. But we know they are vermon.

This just came to mind. Is it possible that Jacob is a variant of the name Gerald? I know, it's a stretch, but it popped up in my head and I had to post it.

I think it's either Gerald Degroot, Paik, Charles Widmore or Christian Sheperd (unlikely).

I think Gerald and Charles Widmore are the main ones for me, but Paik is also interesting as some Eastern people decide to take simple stereotypical Western names like "Dave" "Jack" and maybe even "Jacob" - bit of a long shot though.

IMO the likeliest is Charles Widmore, he seemed pretty powerful, and considered himself a great man, well considering he drank that whiskey which was created by a great man.

I don't think it's Alvar Hanso though, he appeared in TLE, and i don't think those two cross actors, they seem pretty separate. TLE just gives us additional information that they can't fit into the main show, and so if Alvar Hanso is considered additional i don't think he'd be Jacob - as Jacob is certainly not considered additional judging by the recent episodes.

I also think that Jacob is the one who is running the "Box", whatever that may be, and even if it is just allegorical and not a real tangible object. I think that this is how they were able to cure Rachel of her cancer. I think this is how they were able to do a lot of the things they have done. And I think that Walt's special abilities must have scared the pants off of whoever was running the Box (Jacob?), and that's why they got rid of him.

I agree with the Jacob -- Box correlation, but I think it is more likely that Jacob is either in the box (and therefore cannot be anywhere but in the box -- a la "Eternity" from the Third Policeman). Or the box is a conscious entity in its own right and "Jacob" is what the others call it.

Better yet, Jacob could be the name of the Island :D