So Juliet alleged that they used Claire as a control subject and were really helping her but that when Ethan was discovered by the Losties he freaked out and abducted Claire when he wasn't supposed to. She basically says that he acted alone. I don't buy it.

Because we find out at the end she was lying. They weren't treating Claire with medication designed to keep her alive through her preganancy, they gave her an implant that would make her sick. So we still don't really know what they wanted with Claire, but Ethan was awfully eager to get that baby, and Juliet didn't say anything to the Losties about that. If they ask Claire she could tell them because she remembers that now. It was all about getting Aaron from Claire.

So I think Juliet was also lying when she said Ethan acted alone when he took Claire, lynched Charlie, killed Sceve, threatened the camp, etc. I think they knew exactly what Ethan was doing. They are smarter and more calculating than that and Ethan couldn't have kidnapped two people and hung Charlie all by himself.

Juliet's lying about a lot more than Claire's illness and I think Sun and possibly Aaron are going to pay the price. Ethan was no rogue madman.

I agree. There's no way he was working alone. Lynching Charlie and subduing Claire at the same time seems like a mighty impossible feat even for an Other. It's all about Aaron. That's why she's at the beach, and if they don't know that Sun if pregnant yet.. she will be danger once they find out. :eek:

Pace, I totally agree with this. There's no way Ethan was able to do all of that on his own. I think that since Ethan's dead, Juliet reconfigured the story to make her look like a heroine (which, thankfully, Sayid, Sun and Sawyer aren't buying wholesale).
She's playing a deep, deep game and I don't think Sayid's going to get the questions answered in the way he wants and I'm pretty sure that Charlie won't get his answers either.

I agree. There are quite a few things that just don't add up.

"All THEY wanted was Claire'.

This is like the JFK conspiracy. Ethan did NOT act alone!

lol!!! I just made a post about the same thing! I was hoping someone had created a thread so I wouldn't have to do it. :D

Juliet was definitely lying about Ethan acting alone... she said that so that the Others wouldn't look that bad. I just wish Jack would have said something about why Charlie said "All they wanted was Claire" They.

Please someone ask Charlie or Claire what happen that day, damn it!!! That clue plus the fact that the Losties know Danielle gave birth on the island should tip them off not to trust Juliet.

Ethan probably wasn't acting alone, but I don't think we really know yet if Juliet was the one that helped him abduct Claire and hang Charlie, but I'm sure another Other did. I think Juliet was in the Staff hatch the whole time and implanted the device in Claire in the operating room.

Also, why did the Others want to cut Aaron out of Claire? Did they figure Claire was destined to die and this would be the only way to get a newborn to live?

There was definetly a "grassy knoll" Other helping him out...Ben mentioned Ethan's old "drop" point. The shift at the very end of the eppy, with Juliette and Ben going over her "story"...goes a long way to show Juliette is as full off bull as Ben was in the hatch.

Did you see Juliet tying those knots to put up her shelter? She helped hang Charlie for sure.

Cardie

I agree, Ethan did not act alone. Ben is much too in to control to let something like that happen.

100% agreement. Juliet very well may have been the one to hang Charlie. I did notice the typing of knots reference. I am hoping and praying that we will finally have all the dots connected for us in a further FB this season, but if it's not a Ben FB, I don't know how we'll ever know the truth of those events.

I was disappointed we didn't get those answers tonight about who helped Ethan to do what he did. Hopefully they'll reveal it this season. We know they were much more interested in Aaron than Claire, so we still don't know what they are after. They still haven't answered to taking all the children. Even Jack now just says "they're safe". Karl said it was to give them "a better life". Ethan was doing exactly what he was supposed to.

I agree with you, pace. I'm still kinda ticked off that people don't talk on this island... anybody remember the medihatch Claire and Kate found? Claire never breathes a word about it and it takes Kate four episodes to even mention it. Claire and Charlie now trust Juliet because she supposedly saved Claire's life, but still... wouldn't Charlie have any questions for her about Ethan?

Did you see Juliet tying those knots to put up her shelter? She helped hang Charlie for sure.

Yup. I'm thoroughly enjoying Psycho Juliet. I think her FB next season will show us how she got her ninja skillz (the transition from Mousy Juliet) if she survives. They might actually show us what happened to Charlie and the hanging. I think that might complete the rescue scene in ATBCHDI, one of the best Lost scenes ever.

I'm liking Charlie so much lately (I mean... I even found the holding hands with the family thing unbearably sweet... which is weird for me), I'm now seriously starting to worry he might not survive the season.

I don't think it's any big mystery why children are taken and Juliet is being more or less enslaved to fix the island fertility problems. The Others' society is doomed to extinction if they can't reproduce. This is Ben's (and Jacob's?) little island home, meant to survive the end of the world, and they want it to continue.

Cardie

I know what you're saying, Cardie, but I want there to be more to it than that. All this just so they can continue to live on the island? WHY? What is so effing good about this island?

Juliet totally has Michael syndrome- where she'll so ANYTHING to get off the island. The only thing that puzzles me is her killing Pickett- and was the Scarlett letter theing for real or was that to gain Jack's sympathy?

I agree. There's no way he was working alone. Lynching Charlie and subduing Claire at the same time seems like a mighty impossible feat even for an Other.

Not to mention when he was beating up Jack. Did he just leave them laying there, even if they were unconscious or bound, that's a risk. Ethan couldn't have been alone. I was hoping that would come up tonight. I was incredible disappointed in Jack and Kate for not arguing further with Juliette. I know situations were dire, but come on, by her story so much is left unexplained, included Charlie's hanging, Ethan so desperately and violently wanting Claire back and everything else you all have mentioned.

There's defiantly got to be more to the story, and I really hope it isn't something they forget about.

If you believe you are creating a utopian society that is the hope to save the world, and can only do it there, then the island is pretty special. And we have seen that it does have lots of nifty powers you don't find anywhere else.

Cardie

But in "Maternity Leave" Tom was chiding Ethan for not following the instructions It seems to fit with the Ethan-acting-alone theory.

But in "Maternity Leave" Tom was chiding Ethan for not following the instructions It seems to fit with the Ethan-acting-alone theory.


Good point. One possibility is Ethan went rogue and Juliet and the Others had to help clean up the mess. Juliet's such a hard read though. I can see her going either way.

I don't think it's any big mystery why children are taken and Juliet is being more or less enslaved to fix the island fertility problems. The Others' society is doomed to extinction if they can't reproduce. This is Ben's (and Jacob's?) little island home, meant to survive the end of the world, and they want it to continue.

Cardie

But what I kep going back to is if that really is all they are doing, why don't they just help these survivors of a plane crash, explain that they are medical researchers and ask for their help? If they were doing important work t help pregnant women, why not get Claire's consent instead of scaring the life out of her and putting the baby at risk? It's the same question as why not just help the crash survivors and ask Jack nicely to do the surgery on Ben? If they really are good guys, their actions make no sense.

But in "Maternity Leave" Tom was chiding Ethan for not following the instructions It seems to fit with the Ethan-acting-alone theory.

Well, all that told you is that Tom didn't know what Ethan had done. Ethan said he got found out and had to act quickly so he took Claire. That supports what Juliet said. But it doesn't mean Ethan was acting completely alone, just that Tom didn't help him. But somebody had to. Tom didn't know about Charlie. He might have believed that Ethan simply took Claire, but Ethan couldn't have taken both Charlie and Claire, fought with Jack and hanged Charlie by himself, all while keeping Claire.

If Tom didn't help him I believe Juliet may have.

I still don't understand something. Why implant an illness device in Claire?

Alex told Claire that the Others were going to kill her. Why would they implant a device to make her sick if they were just planning on killing her anyway? I guess they really weren't going to kill her?

But still, why the device? Certainly they weren't thinking so far ahead that they planted the device so that Juliet could save her and earn the trust of the Losties.

Alex helped Claire escape because they were going to kil Claire. Do we think they implanted Claire so that in the event that she escaped they could kill her anyway?

Also- do we think that they implanted Sawyer with the ame thing they put in Claire?
Could they have done Jack, Kate and Hurley, too?

Well, all that told you is that Tom didn't know what Ethan had done. Ethan said he got found out and had to act quickly so he took Claire. That supports what Juliet said. But it doesn't mean Ethan was acting completely alone, just that Tom didn't help him. But somebody had to. Tom didn't know about Charlie. He might have believed that Ethan simply took Claire, but Ethan couldn't have taken both Charlie and Claire, fought with Jack and hanged Charlie by himself, all while keeping Claire.

If Tom didn't help him I believe Juliet may have.

Im not saying he acted totally on his own. He probably had some help from somebody. But he was definately acting on his own accord. Its clear that his actions werent approved. Tom seems to be Ben's right hand man, so I dont think that Tom would be out of the loop.

Ethan nailed Jin with the bolas. Tom used them on Michael. Maybe Tom helped string up Charlie.

Im not saying he acted totally on his own. He probably had some help from somebody. But he was definately acting on his own accord. Its clear that his actions werent approved. Tom seems to be Ben's right hand man, so I dont think that Tom would be out of the loop.

My guess would be that Juliet helped Ethan- there was that shot of her with the rope at the end. Also- she was strong enough to drag Kate out into the Jungle- why not Claire? Juliet could have taken claire while Ethan handled Charlie. Why? She's desperate to get off the island and having Claire in house would help her figure it out quicker.

Why not Tom? I think he did seem upset with Ethan for not following orders.

But what I kep going back to is if that really is all they are doing, why don't they just help these survivors of a plane crash, explain that they are medical researchers and ask for their help? If they were doing important work t help pregnant women, why not get Claire's consent instead of scaring the life out of her and putting the baby at risk? It's the same question as why not just help the crash survivors and ask Jack nicely to do the surgery on Ben? If they really are good guys, their actions make no sense.



Well, all that told you is that Tom didn't know what Ethan had done. Ethan said he got found out and had to act quickly so he took Claire. That supports what Juliet said. But it doesn't mean Ethan was acting completely alone, just that Tom didn't help him. But somebody had to. Tom didn't know about Charlie. He might have believed that Ethan simply took Claire, but Ethan couldn't have taken both Charlie and Claire, fought with Jack and hanged Charlie by himself, all while keeping Claire.

If Tom didn't help him I believe Juliet may have.

Good questions. I've always found it odd that the Others have been so outwardly hostile to the Losties. Perhaps it goes back to a perceived higher moral plane that the Others claim? They've certainly made it a habit of reciting all of the Losties' sins when they get the chance.

The Others want Claire's baby to raise as their own; they certainly aren't going to come clean with her about their goals, since she isn't a subject of their research, having conceived off island. From what Ben said, they probably want to use any female Lostie who conceives on island as a guinea pig for Juliet, whose success rate thus far is zero. So there's no way they are going to approach nicely.

There are things Ben is hiding from his own people. The whole set-up is a sort of cult that isn't going to come bearing gifts and risk what they have against a greater number of people than make up their own population. I'm not saying they are good guys, but whatever they are doing they don't trust outsiders until thoroughly vetted.

I imagine it has something to do with the Purge.

Cardie

I'm actually wondering if Alpert was Ethans accomplice, since they were the creepy tag-team that (pressumably) bumped off Juliets ex-Hubby - another guy who was getting in the way of their research. I could imagine Ethan and Alpert lynching Charlie or maybe even Ethan/Alpert/Juliet.

Sigh...this subject is really depressing for me. 'Daddy Issues' is one of my favourite episodes and for ages now I have wanted to know the true events of C&Cs abduction and who helped Ethan with the kidnap/hanging. I thought we'd find out in 'Maternity Leave'....then 'Expose'...then 'One of Us'...but everytime I've been disappointed. I'm starting to think they'll never explain it - just like it seems they'll never explain how Desmond, Locke and Eko survived the hatch implosion.

I'm actually wondering if Alpert was Ethans accomplice, since they were the creepy tag-team that (pressumably) bumped off Juliets ex-Hubby - another guy who was getting in the way of their research. I could imagine Ethan and Alpert lynching Charlie or maybe even Ethan/Alpert/Juliet.

True, it could have been Alpert and/or Juliet.

Sigh...this subject is really depressing for me. 'Daddy Issues' is one of my favourite episodes and for ages now I have wanted to know the true events of C&Cs abduction and who helped Ethan with the kidnap/hanging. I thought we'd find out in 'Maternity Leave'....then 'Expose'...then 'One of Us'...but everytime I've been disappointed. I'm starting to think they'll never explain it - just like it seems they'll never explain how Desmond, Locke and Eko survived the hatch implosion.

I'm with you. The preview was a tease and for once I thought we were going to get the real answer. Bad enough she only explained what they were doing with Claire, then they had to go and expose that as a lie at the end so we really didn't learn anything at all about either of them. We learned they need control subjects because women who conceive on the island die, but Claire was never in any danger. I guess all we need to know is that Charlie was in the way so they tried to kill him, but I'd like the whole story and to know who else did it that may still be alive and a threat.

I get the impression that the Others think of themselves as a group of "good guys" who are trying to set up a perfect, or as close to perfect as possible, society on the island. Even though the reality might fall far short of that goal and, as Cardie says, really be more of a cult.

Many times when they have appeared, they seem to be either lying or doing not so nice things, but the best clue to their real intentions lies in those scenes, I think, that show them previous to their interactions with our Losties. In those moments, the show has repeatedly emphasized their book club and nice, simple little homes and how that seems to be their preference in life. Obviously they have money, resources and intelligent, capable people living in the society, and if they were working toward some really big, evil, goal then I think that we would have gotten some sense of it by now. They seem to dislike all or most of the Dharma facilities that have been built, as there have been several lines in different episodes included to communicate that. All of the evidence so far is that their goal really is this simple little perfect society that they're trying to build. The biggest obstacle to that is the reproduction problem and they're obviously placing a big emphasis on solving it.

One of the biggest reveals of this episode is that Ben and Mikhail and the people below Ben did NOT know that flight 815 was going to crash beforehand, maybe someone else engineered it, but it wasn't them. After it did happen, they figured out who survived, and were happy to kidnap all of the children and people who they thought were "good" to (we think) integrate them into their society.

This left a group of people, again our Losties, that they did NOT want to come into their society. We may love them, but if you are only looking at their written histories, they have done lots of murders and cons and things that make them appear as not too attractive for a "perfect" society. The Others probably thought that some of them might be useful, especially Jack to help Ben and Claire for her pregnancy, but wanted to deal with them only as much as they had to.

If the Others had walked onto the beach in a nice way and explained their problems and asked our group to help them, then our people probably would have wanted things in return, especially a safe comfortable place to live. The Others then would have had to explain that our Losties were not good enough and that would have been the end of that. So the actions that the Others are taking, make a lot of sense when looked at from that angle. The Others will try to get whatever help they can from our group when they need it, whether by threatening them or pulling a con, but always feel that it is essential that they keep our Losties as far away as possible from their "perfect society". When looked at from their perspective, it makes perfect sense, I think, to kidnap Claire, but not to ask her or anyone else who is "unworthy" for help.

To throw a monket wrench in the whole thing. If they were kidnapping "good" people for their perfect society, why did they try to take Ecko? He had a bad track record. Was he possibly part of the others and died by the hands of the ugly monster?

I don't think he was acting alone again, but to play Devil's advocate, wasn't there a scene back in S2 where Tom told Ethan he was in trouble for having messed up (it was the epi that showed us where Claire was gone during her abduction)... just wondering if that indicates that Ethan did improvise, trying to bring about whatever their overall agenda is. Certainly it must be pretty extensive and important what with Ben's plan already being in place when 815 crashed, he just deployed his moles to the site, and Godwin and Ethan obviously knew the drill. I think that the plan crashing or somethng similar had happened before, maybe more than once.
squid

The Others want Claire's baby to raise as their own; they certainly aren't going to come clean with her about their goals, since she isn't a subject of their research, having conceived off island. From what Ben said, they probably want to use any female Lostie who conceives on island as a guinea pig for Juliet, whose success rate thus far is zero. So there's no way they are going to approach nicely.

Cardie


This does not bode well for Sun (or Claire). I wonder how Juliet will find out that Sun is pregnant. I bet Kate tells Juliet that Sun is pregnant to try and save her baby.


Ethan was following instructions, maybe he went rogue but I don't think he acted alone when he hung Charlie.

I get the impression that the Others think of themselves as a group of "good guys" who are trying to set up a perfect, or as close to perfect as possible, society on the island. Even though the reality might fall far short of that goal and, as Cardie says, really be more of a cult.

Many times when they have appeared, they seem to be either lying or doing not so nice things, but the best clue to their real intentions lies in those scenes, I think, that show them previous to their interactions with our Losties. In those moments, the show has repeatedly emphasized their book club and nice, simple little homes and how that seems to be their preference in life. Obviously they have money, resources and intelligent, capable people living in the society, and if they were working toward some really big, evil, goal then I think that we would have gotten some sense of it by now. They seem to dislike all or most of the Dharma facilities that have been built, as there have been several lines in different episodes included to communicate that. All of the evidence so far is that their goal really is this simple little perfect society that they're trying to build. The biggest obstacle to that is the reproduction problem and they're obviously placing a big emphasis on solving it.

One of the biggest reveals of this episode is that Ben and Mikhail and the people below Ben did NOT know that flight 815 was going to crash beforehand, maybe someone else engineered it, but it wasn't them. After it did happen, they figured out who survived, and were happy to kidnap all of the children and people who they thought were "good" to (we think) integrate them into their society.

This left a group of people, again our Losties, that they did NOT want to come into their society. We may love them, but if you are only looking at their written histories, they have done lots of murders and cons and things that make them appear as not too attractive for a "perfect" society. The Others probably thought that some of them might be useful, especially Jack to help Ben and Claire for her pregnancy, but wanted to deal with them only as much as they had to.

If the Others had walked onto the beach in a nice way and explained their problems and asked our group to help them, then our people probably would have wanted things in return, especially a safe comfortable place to live. The Others then would have had to explain that our Losties were not good enough and that would have been the end of that. So the actions that the Others are taking, make a lot of sense when looked at from that angle. The Others will try to get whatever help they can from our group when they need it, whether by threatening them or pulling a con, but always feel that it is essential that they keep our Losties as far away as possible from their "perfect society". When looked at from their perspective, it makes perfect sense, I think, to kidnap Claire, but not to ask her or anyone else who is "unworthy" for help.

You state a really good case there. Doesn't make me like Ethan any better or justify how he treated the Losties though. They may not have wanted them in their utopia but that dosn't give them the right to terrorize them. But I get what you're saying about their twisted perspective.


To throw a monket wrench in the whole thing. If they were kidnapping "good" people for their perfect society, why did they try to take Ecko? He had a bad track record. Was he possibly part of the others and died by the hands of the ugly monster?

This is probably getting too far off topic which is whether Ethan was acting under orders or on his own.

I don't think he was acting alone again, but to play Devil's advocate, wasn't there a scene back in S2 where Tom told Ethan he was in trouble for having messed up (it was the epi that showed us where Claire was gone during her abduction)... just wondering if that indicates that Ethan did improvise, trying to bring about whatever their overall agenda is. Certainly it must be pretty extensive and important what with Ben's plan already being in place when 815 crashed, he just deployed his moles to the site, and Godwin and Ethan obviously knew the drill. I think that the plan crashing or somethng similar had happened before, maybe more than once.
squid

This was mentioned upthread. Tom indicated Ethan acted on his own but that doesn't mean alone. Someone had to have approved enough to assist Ethan even if Tom was out of the loop. Maybe Ethan even got the okay from above and told Tom this out of Claire's earshot.

If I remember right, Charlie himself said 'THEY' when was asked who hung him.

In 'Maternity Leave', Tom yells at Ethan:

"You were supposed to make the list, and then bring her in. Was I unclear?" @16:04

So, Ethan was definitely supposed to bring her in (eventually), but the LIST seemed to be first priority.

Perhaps the video Juliette showed Jack was for real. Perhaps Ethan, and maybe even Goodwin, were among the people who wanted Ben out of power. Maybe Ben sent them to the Losties KNOWING that ultimately they would be exposed and killed.

This could mean that Ethan bringing in Claire early was part of their plan to overtake Ben? That could even be why Tom said "I told you to make the list, then bring her in" when really it was Ben who told Ethan to make a list. I'm starting to think that the whole issue with Claire might not have started out as part of Ben's plan.

You state a really good case there. Doesn't make me like Ethan any better or justify how he treated the Losties though. They may not have wanted them in their utopia but that dosn't give them the right to terrorize them. But I get what you're saying about their twisted perspective.



And of course our perspective is twisted by our affection for these characters. If you're the Others and one group of newcomers has already tried genocide on you, you get paranoid and adopt an end-justifies-the means philosophy. When your research further demonstrates that you're dealing with two convicted criminals, a former Iraqi torturer, a crime boss's enforcer, and a drug addict, among others, it gets pretty easy to justify not playing nice.

I think the plan was for Ethan to bring Claire to the Others so that they could be sure she delivered a healthy baby. Juliet may also have thought that amniotic fluid and blood samples from someone who conceived off-island and delivered successfully would help her research. It might well be that they weren't going to kill her but that with all the deaths of pregnant women and the supposed death of her own mother Alex thought they would.

Without Ethan being discovered as a mole, he would have gotten Claire alone and lured her into an area where she could get abducted without extreme violence. When the only opportunity that presented itself had Charlie along as baggage, Ethan and his accomplices probably decided that he was expendable and a protracted death would slow down their pursuers. This was a hasty and deplorable reaction, but not part of a grand Otherian plan.

Cardie

Good questions. I've always found it odd that the Others have been so outwardly hostile to the Losties. Perhaps it goes back to a perceived higher moral plane that the Others claim? They've certainly made it a habit of reciting all of the Losties' sins when they get the chance.

Agree. And I believe they have this same attitude toward the outside world. They want to keep their utopian island to themselves along with whatever mysterious (to us) qualities it holds. That's one reason I don't believe Ben or any Other brought the plane down. They don't want anyone other than those they specifically choose to be on their island. Remember Tom said, "this is OUR island." They took the children because they can't have any of their own and the children can be raised as one of them. But the rest of the Losties are a pain in their side. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they had/have plans to eventually get rid of all of them or use them to do their manual labor (Sawyer and Kate breaking rocks).

As for acting alone, maybe Ethan "knocked out" (drugged handkerchief) Claire first, then fought with Charlie and hung him? O maybe Pickett helped him? He seemed a bit of a lose cannon and not above slapping some of the Losties around. :mad:

I'm enjoying the off-topic conversation that we have had and want to discuss a few points further, but I definitely feel that I should spend some time on-topic first.

I think that the question of whether or not Ethan was acting alone should be broken into pre-kidnapping and post-kidnapping. I think that it's pretty obvious that he was working with the rest of the Others' consent pre-kidnapping. We've seen Ben order him to infiltrate the Beach camp and we know that pregnant women were very high on their agenda. At this time, it seems that everything before the kidnapping was done alone, but according to instructions.

Once Hurley found the manifest everything changed in a hurry. Ethan had to go with his best judgement on how to handle things, due to the time constraints, before he was discovered. He may have had a communication device, such as a walkie talkie or cell phone either on him or more likely at his drop point. It's definitely not impossible that he slipped away to make a call for help and met up with one or more Other(s), who could have helped with the kidnapping.

But if you think about the scenarios involved, it doesn't seem likely to me that that's what actually happened. The Scenario would be that he called for help, than met up with someone who helped to hang Charlie. But the problem then is where was that person or people when our Losties finally tracked Ethan and Claire down? Wouldn't they have been helping to carry Claire or at least be with those two. It's possible that that Other(s) broke off after the hanging, but why? The job definitely wasn't done yet.

The only answer that occurs to me is that Ethan's assistance broke off from him in order to do something to delay or distract our guys that were tracking them down. If that's what happened though, then the help did such a bad job of delaying and/or distracting, that both our Losties and we as the viewers see NO sign of the help.

Therefore, I can only conclude, unless I am missing something, that Ethan did act alone. Fierro writes that Charlie said "THEY". I don't remember, but I can easily see Charlie saying that, but not necessarily in a literal way. The same way that most people often refer to a group of people as "guys", even if that group includes women, Charlie easily could have referred to whoever had just literally killed him as "THEY". He obviously was shaken after having died and preoccuppied with all that was happening.

While it may seem unlikely that Ethan accomplished the kidnapping and hanging alone, it's not impossible. The Others have done lots of research on their own and may well have access to lots of Dharma info and Ethan may have had drugs to keep C & C awake so that they could walk, but make them unable to concentrate on what was going on. Or forget what had happened after the fact, so that they would think they were asleep, but really have been awake. Drugs may have made them susceptible to his suggestions. If he had rope, then he easily could have bound Claire while hanging Charlie and perhaps he used the rope in conjunction with some sort of pulley system to tie Charlie up. Through medications he may have even had some sort of enhanced strength. Every time Ethan has been shown he seems very confident and competent to me. That he successfully pulled off this kidnapping alone seems a lot more likely to me than his having an accomplice that helped but left beofre the kidnapping was done.

I definitely agree with the analysis by Pace and Cardie that Ethan was not at all likable and what he did was deplorable [I haven't figured out how to quote people yet, sorry]. BTW Pace, if it seemed by my theory that I sympathize with the Others, I don't. I think that Ethan, Juliet and Ben, etc. are really great as characters and I like to figure out people's motivations in order to better understand everything, but my sympathies are very much on the Beach. While our Losties have sometimes done some really bad things, those have been (usually) mitigated by evidence of regret and/or serious contemplation of the consequences of their actions later. The Others have done bad things, but we have gotten very little sense of decency among many of them. There are some, such as Tom and Alex and Karl, that I definitely think that we have seen humanity from. But not from the rest of the Others, or at least those that have gotten more than a minute or two of screentime. Goodwin, Pickett, Ben, Juliet, etc. seem all business all the time. I think that a "cult" is a great description and is in keeping with Ben's identification as "good guys".

To respond to a few other people about my thoughts on the Others' motivations:

Jtoloski, you thought that Ecko's attempted kidnapping throws a wrench into my theory, but it doesn't because the Others never attempted to kidnap Ecko.:eek2: They attempted to kidnap a devout priest named "Yemi". WE know that Ecko had really been impersonating Yemi (I believe for years), but I would argue that the Others didn't know he wasn't the real thing. We now know for certain that Ben & Co. had no prior knowledge that the plane was crashing, and while they have since done an amazing job of intel gathering. In the first days after the crash, I would be highly inclined to believe that they had no reason to doubt he wasn't really a priest. As the days passed, and Ecko killed an Other or two (how many I don't remember), they probably rethought things, investigated him further, but may still have not figured out the truth. After all, I doubt there were many pictures or documents of the real Yemi growing up in a poor war torn country. So, their attempted kidnapping of a devout priest doesn't deviate from my theory.

Thank you for the compliment Pace. I am glad that you and Cardie and I hope everyone else, found something of value in my post. While it was my first post and longer than I had intended, I really wanted to get the thought out properly. I have lurked for quite awhile and read many items by you both, as well as many others (no pun intended:rolleyes:), and it really is great to contribute in a positive way.

I think that the question of whether or not Ethan was acting alone should be broken into pre-kidnapping and post-kidnapping. I think that it's pretty obvious that he was working with the rest of the Others' consent pre-kidnapping. We've seen Ben order him to infiltrate the Beach camp and we know that pregnant women were very high on their agenda. At this time, it seems that everything before the kidnapping was done alone, but according to instructions.

...snip...

While it may seem unlikely that Ethan accomplished the kidnapping and hanging alone, it's not impossible. The Others have done lots of research on their own and may well have access to lots of Dharma info and Ethan may have had drugs to keep C & C awake so that they could walk, but make them unable to concentrate on what was going on.

Good analysis, AO. I think I agree with you. However, I also wanted to add something that I've been thinking about to the story of Claire's abduction, which is that I believe there is the possibility that Claire manifested her own abduction. That she did this because of her own fears about danger surrounding her baby, and that these fears acted through whatever "The Box" is to create the exact situation she was dreading. And that the way The Box works in manifesting things is that Ethan was somehow motivated to carry out the job. I'm not really tied to this idea, but it keeps bugging me, so I just thought I'd mention it...

Without Ethan being discovered as a mole, he would have gotten Claire alone and lured her into an area where she could get abducted without extreme violence. When the only opportunity that presented itself had Charlie along as baggage, Ethan and his accomplices probably decided that he was expendable and a protracted death would slow down their pursuers. This was a hasty and deplorable reaction, but not part of a grand Otherian plan.

I disagree. Ethan and his accomplices didn't have to take Charlie along as baggage. They could have just knocked him unconcious and made off with Claire. I think they took Charlie so that if the Lostees came after them they would have a hostage who they could threaten to kill. Obviously they couldn't threaten Claire. So Ethan did plan to kill Charlie as a warning to the Lostees.

I'm not sure what would have happened to Charlie if Jack hadn't come after them. My guess is that Ethan would have kept Charlie prisoner at the Staff as insurance in case any of the Lostees found the medi-hatch. After they had got the baby I think Ethan would have either killed both Charlie and Claire or sent them back to the Lostees (chipped) having done with them.

Once they had Charlie they may have thought of various ways to use him, but I believe that Ethan's original instructions were to get Claire and bring her, and her only, to the medical hatch.

I've always wondered too why they didn't either tie up Charlie and leave him or kill him to get him out of the way. The hanging seems needlessly complex any way you look at it. It made a great Jack moment, however, and until I see a better explanation, I'll believe that the kidnappers were working for the writers in this instance rather than Ben. ;)

Cardie

The hanging seems needlessly complex any way you look at it.

I think the hanging was a clever device. If Ethan had just snapped Charlies neck it wouldn't have stopped Jack in his tracks. If Jack found Charlie irreccoveraby dead then it would have just made him more angry and determind to catch Ethan. But by leaving Charlie half-strangled it created a situation where the doctor would have to STOP and revive him. Stopping Jack was the main objective, not killing Charlie. And it worked.

Good analysis, AO. I think I agree with you. However, I also wanted to add something that I've been thinking about to the story of Claire's abduction, which is that I believe there is the possibility that Claire manifested her own abduction. That she did this because of her own fears about danger surrounding her baby, and that these fears acted through whatever "The Box" is to create the exact situation she was dreading. And that the way The Box works in manifesting things is that Ethan was somehow motivated to carry out the job. I'm not really tied to this idea, but it keeps bugging me, so I just thought I'd mention it...

Well Saukkomies, I've personally tried to avoid thinking too much about The Box. We have evidence that it or something like it exists, in Locke's walking most obviously, but also in Rose's cured cancer, if she is really cured and Sun's pregnancy, if it really is by Jin, etc. As for Locke's father, he could have come via the Box or he could have been kidnapped and brought by sub or even something else. The only description so far is Ben's and he of course isn't always honest. Also, there wasn't much explanation of it beyond a few lines. At this point, we would have to assume that Ben was telling the truth and try to guess some things based on not a lot of evidence.

Obviously the one case where we know without any doubt (that I can think of) that The Box worked is in Locke's ability to walk. He never came directly in contact with The Box, so that's not a prerequisite and so Claire didn't have to come into direct contact with it either.

I personally really like the idea that someone needs to be in a very serene, confident state to access the power of The Box. Locke did have a certain confidence and spirituality about him when he came to the Island, several have called him Yoda Locke. Rose also seems to have it. I would definitely argue that Sun, who almost fled her husband right before the flight, and Jin, who embarking on a mission for his father-in-law that I don't remember him being at all happy about, didn't have that air about them. But someone other than Jin could be the father as well, so they may not be exampIes of The Box at work. I personally really like the idea that someone needs to be in some sort of spiritual state, which does not necessarily require subscription to any specific religion to acheive, to access the power of The Box. But nowhere has that mind set been shown as a prerequisite. It's just my personal hope, so it certainly doesn't disprove your theory.

I really don't like the concept that anyone with a strong desire can access the power of The Box. If this is so, then it opens the door to so many sharks being able to jump as to create a tsunami. People could even change the past or make the dead return to life. One could ask a lot of questions on why The Box didn't make certain things happen. For example, Boone REALLY wanted Shannon to love him, so why didn't The Box make that happen. Sayid REALLY wanted Shannon back from the dead. Libby REALLY wanted something or other to do with Hurley, but it looks like that never happened. Rousseau REALLY wanted Alex back and so on. What makes one person's desire come true, but not someone else's?

The question comes down to why would The Box work for some people and not for others. Claire really had a fear that something bad was going to happen to her as you say, but why would it work for her and not Boone or Libby or Sayid? At this point, I just don't think we have enough answers about The Box to properly speculate.

I do think that Ethan's mission and mind set are enough in themselves to explain the kidnapping, so unless we get any new info then I will hope that The Box had nothing to do with the abductions of C & C one way or another. As I said, it could have a part to play, and if it does then I will accept that, but I am naturally very biased to hope that it didn't. Because the more this Box is used as an explanation for different events then the less interesting IMO this show will become.

I’m going out on a limb here and state that I think that Charlie’s the person who helped out Ethan. When Charlie first got to the island, he was definitely looking for his next fix. He was going thru withdrawals, shaking, cold sweats, etc. The Others could have found out about the drug habit and exploited that to their advantage. By Ethan getting Charlie to befriend Claire, all he had to do was take her for a short walk just outside the Losties camp, where Ethan would be waiting for her. But, something went wrong during the encounter; for example, Ethan was a little rough with Claire. By this time, Charlie could have developed some feelings for Claire, and confronted Ethan. Push comes to shove and the next thing you know, Charlie’s hanging from a tree by the neck. Ethan could have been there with someone else, like Juliet, but he would have strung up Charlie from the tree by himself.

Of course in the end, Charlie gets his revenge and shoots Ethan before Ethan can implicate Charlie in the abduction of Claire. That way, no one in the Losties camp has to know. Now, if Juliet knows what went down during the encounter and Charlie recognizes her from that day, then Charlie now has to be a bit nervous. I’m curious as to any encounter between Juliet and Charlie.

I’m going out on a limb here and state that I think that Charlie’s the person who helped out Ethan. When Charlie first got to the island, he was definitely looking for his next fix. He was going thru withdrawals, shaking, cold sweats, etc. The Others could have found out about the drug habit and exploited that to their advantage. By Ethan getting Charlie to befriend Claire, all he had to do was take her for a short walk just outside the Losties camp, where Ethan would be waiting for her. But, something went wrong during the encounter; for example, Ethan was a little rough with Claire. By this time, Charlie could have developed some feelings for Claire, and confronted Ethan. Push comes to shove and the next thing you know, Charlie’s hanging from a tree by the neck. Ethan could have been there with someone else, like Juliet, but he would have strung up Charlie from the tree by himself.

Of course in the end, Charlie gets his revenge and shoots Ethan before Ethan can implicate Charlie in the abduction of Claire. That way, no one in the Losties camp has to know. Now, if Juliet knows what went down during the encounter and Charlie recognizes her from that day, then Charlie now has to be a bit nervous. I’m curious as to any encounter between Juliet and Charlie.

Not possible. Charlie didn't take Claire for a walk, Claire was stomping back to the beach and he came after her. When Claire started having contractions, Charlie ran off to get help. When he bumped into Ethan he didn't even know his name. It was clear Charlie and Ethan hadn't even spoken before then. They weren't in cahoots.

Also, why did the Others want to cut Aaron out of Claire? Did they figure Claire was destined to die and this would be the only way to get a newborn to live?
I think Alex heard the doctors say this, not knowing it was medical slang for a Cesarian section. C-Sections are common when the health of the mother or child is in doubt, as it can shorten the delivery time.

We still don't know if the others actually intended to kill Claire, or why Aaron was so important.

I think the hanging was a clever device. If Ethan had just snapped Charlies neck it wouldn't have stopped Jack in his tracks. If Jack found Charlie irreccoveraby dead then it would have just made him more angry and determind to catch Ethan. But by leaving Charlie half-strangled it created a situation where the doctor would have to STOP and revive him. Stopping Jack was the main objective, not killing Charlie. And it worked.

But there are other ways to stop Jack because he has to treat Charlie than hanging him. Unless the timing is absolutely right, Charlie will be dead. (Granted cutting him down and trying to revive him would take time, whatever the outcome.)

If they stabbed or shot Charlie in the stomach, say, Jack would have to stop to do something about the bleeding and stay with him till he stabilized, and that just takes a minute for the kidnappers, who risk the pursuers catching up with them as they tie nooses and hoist Charlie way up to the top of that tree. The only one I can see doing it in a plausible manner is our friend Smokey.

Cardie

But there are other ways to stop Jack because he has to treat Charlie than hanging him. Unless the timing is absolutely right, Charlie will be dead. (Granted cutting him down and trying to revive him would take time, whatever the outcome.)

If they stabbed or shot Charlie in the stomach, say, Jack would have to stop to do something about the bleeding and stay with him till he stabilized, and that just takes a minute for the kidnappers, who risk the pursuers catching up with them as they tie nooses and hoist Charlie way up to the top of that tree. The only one I can see doing it in a plausible manner is our friend Smokey.

Cardie

But Jack and Kate were quite close and they didn't hear Smokey. Shooting him would have been too likely to have caused death that far from any camp. Plus Kate could have worked to stop the bleeding while Jack went on, but no one else could do CPR. Also if Charlie was lying on the ground shot, they might have missed him. Hanging was very visual -- something they couldn't miss (and of course had great impact on TV).

Therefore, I can only conclude, unless I am missing something, that Ethan did act alone.

If I recall the circumstances surrounding Scott's murder correctly, he was killed despite the fact that our heroes had set up a patrol/watch. After Scott's body was found, they surmised that the attack must have come from the sea. This would imply the use of a vessel, perhaps the submarine. While it's possible that Ethan could have obtained a vessel, piloted it himself, killed Scott and returned, is it likely he could have done these things without either help or permission from a superior?