Just needed to vent the fact that Sawyer and Sayid totally disappointed by being pushed over by Juliet. They showed up all tough and hard and ready to pound some answers out of her, and she just shut them down.

Sorry- but what a couple of *mod edit* pansies*.

ya do kno those "wimps" are prolly the smartest and toughest people out of our losties.

They arent wimps. I dont think after all theyve done you could call them that. They just understood where she was coming from and decided to let her go, which is a special kind of gutsy on their part.

Aww.. I wouldn't say that. They've both got dark pasts.. Juliet had just brought up the darkest and most traumatic moments of their lives. I love both those characters and wouldn't call either of them a wimp.

Sawyer and Sayid proved they are finally ready to watch Jack's back (their leader)....Juliet did have the cure for Claire and she had it because she is "under the gun" from Ben just like Jack and the rest of the losties....

Just needed to vent the fact that Sawyer and Sayid totally disappointed by being pushed over by Juliet. They showed up all tough and hard and ready to pound some answers out of her, and she just shut them down.

Sorry- but what a couple of **MOD edited**

Look I know I'm new 'round here and i'm not trying to start static but MIB is right, who wouldnt demand answers from someone who baits them with something along the lines of "if I told you everything you would kill me". worse case get sawyer back on the trail home and send the meds along with him while sayid's got some face time alone with Julia.

I must agree, it was a bit disappointing (and also comical in a sad way considering their macho entrance).
Heck, I doubt my 13-year old kid sister would be so easily swayed by Juliets swingin' baloney.
Their past had zilch to do with the current situation. The others have consistantly been the aggressive party on the Island.

If Sayid was truly sincere in his desire to interrogate Juliet, the obvious thing to do was to have Sawyer bring back the meds to Jack. In fact, I was pretty damn sure that that was where the story was going seeing as BOTH Sawyer and Sayid were in the ambush.

Crappy writing is what that is.

I wouldn't call them wimps.

It's tough to think you have the upper hand and then realize in a twist of fate - you don't. Especially ywhen your deepest, darkest, dirtiest secret s are revealed.

I think the torture part was no surprise for Sawyer to learn about Sayid and I doubt very seriously that Sayid was surprised to hear that Sawyer had murdered someone. But to know that Juliet and the Others know this about them - well that would kick your socks off!! Who else knows? The authorities? Someone who could come and haul them away and lock them up??

I think they realized that their enemy was bigger than they anticipated. Time to regroup and come up with a better plan. That's all.

I too was disappointed with how easily they were thrown off kilter. She caught them off guard, sure, but come on! How about a simple line from Sawyer or Sayid, like "This is about you Juliet, not us." And then get on with the interrogation.

I was yelling at the TV "Please don't give her that case!" They are both whipped...why didn't they say, "How the heck do you know that...we want some answers right now, Blondie!!"

It was interesting to note the look on Juliet's face as she walked away from them as though she was totally petrified and relieved that they backed down.

I totally agree. Their behaviour was inconsistent and baffling. Two macho, anger- and testosterone-fuelled men aren't going to be swayed by an ex-tormentor playing on their guility consciences, particularly not in such a way as each can perceive the other to have stood down and been humiliated.

Speaking of Juliet, I'm rapidly losing any sympathy for her. Her backstory may be tragic but her schoolmistress-like harridan ways are getting on my wick. She's turning into a second Mrs. Klugh (a woman so irritating she had to literally nag herself to death.)

yes - very disappointed with them. they were too easily thrown by her. i expect that won't last, though.

I agree with GL, if I had gone in thinking I had the upper hand, and then she threw my worst act at me - a total stranger - that would throw me for a loop, and just might turn the tables. That's throwing your opponent off guard right there - giving YOU the power, a trick I'm sure she learned from the Others.

I thought Juliet did great with those two, almost as good as Ben I'd say. Her face as she walked away was brilliant (great job Elizabeth Mitchell!) I didn't think it made sawyer and Sayid look like wimps, but made them very human. Besides, I think Sayid's just buying his time, watching her very closely...

I don't think they're wimps, they basically just realized that it was the wrong time to make their play, and they let it go that time. Claire was under the gun, and as rough and tumble as Sawyer and Sayid are and can be I think they realized that.

Both men posses enough self-loathing for their previous actions that I personally, really don't think Juliet made that much of a difference. Sawyer barely batted an eye. He had his "you and me aint done Zeke" face on when he handed the case over.

Sawyer and Sayid proved they are finally real and true.....and ready to watch Jack's back (their leader)....Juliette did have the cure for Claire and she had it because she is "under the gun" just like Jack and the rest of the losties....


I don't know if it had anything to do with being ready to watch their "leader's" back. I think that maybe the both of them just let Juliet say what she had to say and go because they were thinking about Claire and what could happen to her, so they just let it be. I don't think that either one of them has changed their minds about her or decided to just trust Jack's decision to bring her to their camp. If they did, then they would just be pushovers, and after all that they have been through since they got on the island, I don't see either one of them just letting this go.

haha i love how people have a problem with them being "wimps" but arent looking at how they were setup to look like wimps when the writers let her go get a case of medical junk BY HERSELF.

or how about how kate and her never told them about running into the monster. "hey that wasnt that scary at all. lets keep it to ourselves. wehehehehehehe"

the biggest problem on this show isnt who is a wimp or not.

I wouldn't exactly call them "wimps" for not wanting Claire's death on their hands.

I agree that this was lame - but I also don't think they were wimps per se, but the whole scene really made my eyes roll. Gimme a break.... exasperating

We have to remember though that this is TV - and just like a good book - the suspense has to be maintained.

I guess in order to make this a good show, we have waddle through the "so-called" wimpiness of ALL the survivors.... When the tides finally turn and the survivors finally start standing up and taking control, is when the storyline is coming to a close... Typical storytelling in my opinion - Love it all the same.

Juliet seemed to put them both into a trance.....I allmost was expecting her to issue orders and have them do as she said without question.

I call shenanigans!

Saywer spent a week or two locked in a cage, jumping through hoops for fish biscuits, digging holes, moving rocks, getting tased and beaten, and... getting LIED to (pacemaker, anyone?). So let me get this straight. Sawyer is suspicious of Juliet for no other reason than she works with the Others. OK, reasonable. But as soon as she calls him out for being "the morality police," he backs down? Sorry, but (1) he very well might BE the "morality police" HERE where everything is upside down and the number one goal of most rational people is to STAY ALIVE, and (2) who cares what she thinks or says? Sawyer knows that the Others know stuff about him, and he knows that they just love to play mindgames and LIE. If anything, Juliet's little speech should have made him MORE suspicious.

Sayid, two words: Henry Gale. Need two more? Mikhail Bakunin.

I too was surprised they backed down, but Juliet not only goaded them about their ugly pasts--she dropped a huge bomb on each of them.

She knew about Sawyer's murder, which NOBODY could possibly know about, and which he's never revealed to anyone, even Kate. What's more, Sayid now knows.

She asked Sayid, "Did you tell them about Rosalind?" No, but somehow I have an idea there's a flashback coming eventually.

Easily the most provocative scene of a superb episode.

The part when Sawyer and Sayid just let Juliet go in the jungle was not consistent with what their motivations would be.

The fact that Juliet pointed out Sayid and Sawyers previous moral wrongdoings had nothing to do with why they were motivated to talk to Juliet. They werent there on a morality mission, they were there to get INFORMATION. For once, it seemed like characters on lost were actually interested in obtaining intelligence to better their situation.

But alas they were foiled by someone knowing some bad stuff they had done, and that made them turn to statues. Why would they care? They already know the others know stuff about them, they had communications with the outside world, and were very hostile. What about what Juliet told them made them freeze with fear?

Who cares if sawyer killed someone in the real world. Just like he threw the diamonds away that had no value on the island, this information has no value on the island. There is no sheriffs department or detectives or jail - why would he care? And more importantly, why would you follow someone in the jungle hoping to get information to save yourself and then be totally turned around by her knowing about your previous wrongdoings? Its absurd.

Not to mention that sawyer and sayid are a conman and interrogator. This is against their training and character. They should and would be interested in one thing at this point - STAYING ALIVE AND GETTING OFF THE ISLAND. And Juliet could help them with that bigtime, and poses a threat to that if they let her walk off.

But what do they do? Let her just walk off. Sure. Of course. If they would have said to Juliet "in 5th grade you kissed a boy in the lockerroom", according to lost rules, she would have dropped to her knees and told them that she is still secretly working for Ben.

The morality issues exposed by Juliet had NOTHING to do with the motivations of Sayid and Sawyer. The biggest problems with lost these days is that TPTB want us to forget that they are all on an island after a plane crash, and that their number one motivation would be to stay alive and get rescued. All of the recent plotlines abandon this. They dont act like people who are motivated to stay alive. They avoid intelligence whenever possible.

Sayid and Sawyer are just another example...

She friggin' owned them...

she threatened them about Claire which I think was the major motivation. They froze when she brought up their past because they were surprised. I agree that it was a little pat, but I think Claire was the clincher.

She friggin' owned them...


Thats the problem.

Do you really think that what she said would have "owned" anyone? Especially a con man and a trained interrogator? Juliet is like Dora the Explorer compared to the people these 2 have dealt with.

They would have grabbed her, interrogated her, and then probably have killed her. And if this information she had is so detrimental to the two of them why wouldnt they just kill her? Why would they let her walk?
100%
she threatened them about Claire which I think was the major motivation. They froze when she brought up their past because they were surprised. I agree that it was a little pat, but I think Claire was the clincher.

How far was the caves from the beach? I imagine it was at least a couple of hours away, because it was dark when she left the beach and light at the case place.

So even if the boys "froze" out of surprise, wouldnt they snap out of it and hunt her down?

Are we supposed to believe the two of them stood around and mumbled to themselves for the next several hours?

They were taken aback not by what she said but how did she even know it? You could see by the looks on their faces that they were trying to put it together, they were in a bit of shockmode.

Time wasn't right, Claire was on the line, and as much as those two hate the Others, and want to get answers they weren't going to sacrifice Claire to do it, especially since it looks like Juliet is going to be hanging around. They'll get their chance to make their play at her, I hope.

I'm just speculating here, and they may have recognized that they weren't going to get anything when they went out there. Perhaps they were looking to catch her off her guard and get her to give them something to go on (she obviously didn't) or to have her lead them to the case, and then find that it wasn't medicine at all, but something else.

They let her go because of the Claire situation. I agree they both were shocked about what Juliet knew about them.

Having someone confront them about the things they have done (especially things that no one else should know) had to be a bit of a shock. However, I believe that the only thing that really got to them was the realization that Claire's life was more important at that moment than their need for information. They are not done with Juliet. The problem is that whatever she does tell them will either be out-and-our lies or partial truth at best.

I am by nature a skeptic, and not easily convinced of anything. Juliet has become very skilled in manipulation (I guess Ben has been a good teacher). I was actually starting to believe in her... until that final scene.

They were taken aback not by what she said but how did she even know it? You could see by the looks on their faces that they were trying to put it together, they were in a bit of shockmode.

Dont forget, Sayid and Sawyer were both privy to a lot of what the others already knew.

Sayid saw the communications station and he was at the camp. Sawyer was on the island camp where he was in a cage. They both saw plenty to know that the others knew a lot and had intelligence.

So lets take what you say to be true. Lets say they were in shock over how Juliet knew these things. WOULDNT THEY ASK HER "HOW DO YOU KNOW THESE THINGS?"

Isnt this even more reason for them to get the intelligence they need to stay alive and get rescued? Its absolutely backwards. These comments by Juliet would make them want information even MORE NOT LESS.

Dont forget, Sayid and Sawyer were both privy to a lot of what the others already knew.

Sayid saw the communications station and he was at the camp. Sawyer was on the island camp where he was in a cage. They both saw plenty to know that the others knew a lot and had intelligence.

So lets take what you say to be true. Lets say they were in shock over how Juliet knew these things. WOULDNT THEY ASK HER "HOW DO YOU KNOW THESE THINGS?"

Isnt this even more reason for them to get the intelligence they need to stay alive and get rescued? Its absolutely backwards. These comments by Juliet would make them want information even MORE NOT LESS.

You keep conveniently leaving out the Claire portion of the equation - the last thing Juliette said to seal the deal was that she was on had to get back quickly or Claire would die. Do you really think they should have taken the time to ask her questions at that particular time? There will still be time for them to ask their questions - they had to hedge their bets there that Claire was in real danger and that Juliette was a real solution to her sickness. If they delayed her and Claire died - what is gained? Only information that they can still try to get after Claire has been saved.

Man, that scene so pissed my husband off. He thinks that the main characters act out of character way too much this season, and that scene pointed it out perfectly.

Yes, we know Sayid and James have changed. They have both 'suffered' and blah blah blah.

There better be a reason why Sawyer falls for every con put before him.

I noticed that someone previously mentioned that they were motivated by Juliet's ability to save Claire's life. But it seems to me that after Sawyer opened the case and saw that there was a syringe with some medicine, that it would'nt take a rocket scientist to save Claire ( a spinal surgeon perhaps). It just seems that it would make more sense for Sawyer to take the medicine back to Jack to administer it to Claire, while Sayid works on Juliet.

Also, why would they feel bad about their past wrongs when talking to someone who kidnaps people (including Sawyer himself) and locks folks up in cages to be electrocuted by weird contraptions. It doesn't seem that they would buy her position as the morality police.

I noticed that someone previously mentioned that they were motivated by Juliet's ability to save Claire's life. But it seems to me that after Sawyer opened the case and saw that there was a syringe with some medicine, that it would'nt take a rocket scientist to save Claire ( a spinal surgeon perhaps). It just seems that it would make more sense for Sawyer to take the medicine back to Jack to administer it to Claire, while Sayid works on Juliet.

Also, why would they feel bad about their past wrongs when talking to someone who kidnaps people (including Sawyer himself) and locks folks up in cages to be electrocuted by weird contraptions. It doesn't seem that they would buy her position as the morality police.

But why take the risk in terms of dosage, injection location or anything like that when Juliette will still be there after you are done saving Claire? There was simply too much at stake for them to do the questioning just then. It would have been out of character, and stupid for them to do anything other than let Juliette attempt to save Claire.

Jack doesn't even know what is wrong with Claire - Juliette knows what is wrong and exactly what caused it (as far as Sayid and Sawyer know).

I don't think Claire is a valid reason for their absurdly convenient submission to her guilt trip. When they first confront her, she says "Now is not the time" or something like that, and Sawyer says "We cleared our schedules". I took that to mean "We don't give a hoot about Claire's situation right now". Either that or they were placing the onus on her (and why shouldn't they - they were in the positions of power!) - let her know that the only way they were going to let her leave with the supplies was if she coughed up some information. It's a long walk back, start talking. If she doesn't get back to the beach, she can't prove she's 'innocent' now. Her prime goal at that moment was to save Claire, they knew that. They should leverage that against her. She wants to save Claire every bit as much as they want her to, but they also want some information. So why not say to her - you can leave here with those supplies as soon as you tell us a few things... leave it in her hands. If she doesn't cooperate, it's obvious she's still working with them. If she does, she gets to go help Claire and she earns their trust for the moment.

No, no... instead, the writers turn Sayid and Sawyer into sentimental morons who simply fold like lawn chairs to Juliet's guilt trip. Pathetic.

I don't think Claire is a valid reason for their absurdly convenient submission to her guilt trip. When they first confront her, she says "Now is not the time" or something like that, and Sawyer says "We cleared our schedules". I took that to mean "We don't give a hoot about Claire's situation right now". Either that or they were placing the onus on her (and why shouldn't they - they were in the positions of power!) - let her know that the only way they were going to let her leave with the supplies was if she coughed up some information. It's a long walk back, start talking. If she doesn't get back to the beach, she can't prove she's 'innocent' now. Her prime goal at that moment was to save Claire, they knew that. They should leverage that against her. She wants to save Claire every bit as much as they want her to, but they also want some information. So why not say to her - you can leave here with those supplies as soon as you tell us a few things... leave it in her hands. If she doesn't cooperate, it's obvious she's still working with them. If she does, she gets to go help Claire and she earns their trust for the moment.

No, no... instead, the writers turn Sayid and Sawyer into sentimental morons who simply fold like lawn chairs to Juliet's guilt trip. Pathetic.


Bingo.

They stated that they had plenty of time to talk to her. And as already mentioned, they could have easily carried the case back to Jack and had him give her the injection. They didnt know how to give it or how much? Interrogate Juliet.

The lost writers apologists often come up with all kinds of far fetched reasoning why someone might do something on the show. The problem is that anyone MIGHT do anything, but it is not likely that they would keep doing the wrong thing over and over and over and over.

Bingo.

They stated that they had plenty of time to talk to her. And as already mentioned, they could have easily carried the case back to Jack and had him give her the injection. They didnt know how to give it or how much? Interrogate Juliet.

The lost writers apologists often come up with all kinds of far fetched reasoning why someone might do something on the show. The problem is that anyone MIGHT do anything, but it is not likely that they would keep doing the wrong thing over and over and over and over.

Nah...it what WHAT SHE SAID to them you're not considering:

"The last thing you two need right now is more blood on your hands"...that would get anyone to take a step back and contemplate the implications of that threat...it might have been a bluff, but it worked. Then again, maybe it wasnt a bluff...

Totally agree. That scene had me screaming at the screen! They both looked SO stupid the whole time she is talking, and they let her talk and talk and talk her way out of answering questions, while looking STUPID!!

As for how she got them to back off?? Juliet needed Claire to survive just as much as they wanted her to...even more so, she was the ticket into gaining the trust of the Losties. They started out forcing the issue by saying they had cleared their schedules, and then she shifts the whole conversation to morality, which has nothing to do with what they want.

Sayid several times said he would KILL her if she didn't talk, he didn't say he was going to show everyone what a bad person she was! As for his crimes, everyone on the beach knows that Sayid was in the Iraqi army and was a torturer...so its not like he was HIDING his past. Sawyer was hiding the fact that he killed someone, but he did tell Kate that he had killed someone, so he too has told someone since the crash of his crimes... They were trying to find out what she knows, to get off the island, to know what is going on, they were NOT trying to be morality police!!! That doesn't even make sense within the context of the show unless they have the sickness and are insane...

So yet once again, the Others get away with not saying anything....anything truthful at least! These Jedi mind tricks that ALL the Others seem to be able to use on the Losties is just getting OLD!!!

Prior to confronting Juliette, Sawyer and Sayid did not know how serious Claire's condition was. She spoke to Kate and Jack about that in confidence. There is no reason to think that Sawyer and Sayid knew the details of the conversation or exactly how much danger Claire was supposed to be in (but actually wasn't). That revelation, coupled with her surprising knowledge of the skeletons they thought they had quietly tucked away in their closets put them off their guard. They lost control of the encounter and she left before they could collect their wits. Frankly I think the last thing they expect was for her to turn the tables on them and go on the offensive.

Vanzack, I am with you. I call total BS.

Between "Henry" and Mikhail, Sayid should know better than to fall for any more of these "Infiltrating Other" acts. And James "Pacemaker" Ford knows first hand that the Others are all about manipulation, mind games, and flat out lying.

The fact they did some bad stuff off the island? Who cares? Doing a something morally wrong is not mutually exclusive with being an intelligent person. Just because Sawyer shot a guy doesn't mean his gut instincts about Juliet are automatically wrong. Just because Sayid "tortured" people because it was his job, doesn't mean that he'd never try to help other people. Juliet's "logic" was ridiculous.

As for Claire? For all anyone knew, Juliet was going off to get some kind of murder kit in order to inject Claire with something deadly. It was an equal risk to let her "help" Claire at all.

The problem I have with this scene is that even if Sawyer and Sayid decided to allow Juliet to help Claire, there was no reason to just stand there dumbstruck at the fact that an Other might know something about them (duh). It doesn't matter. To them, Juliet was in cohoots with the murdering Ethan. She should be considered just as bad in their eyes. But no. She somehow "guilts" them into letting her go completely? They should have at least vocally tabled the matter until Claire was better. They could have said, "Go help Claire... but then you'll have to answer our questions."

I guess this island prevents women from having babies and men from being able to remain rational for more than 2 minutes at a time.

Sayid several times said he would KILL her if she didn't talk, he didn't say he was going to show everyone what a bad person she was! As for his crimes, everyone on the beach knows that Sayid was in the Iraqi army and was a torturer...so its not like he was HIDING his past. Sawyer was hiding the fact that he killed someone, but he did tell Kate that he had killed someone, so he too has told someone since the crash of his crimes...They were trying to find out what she knows, to get off the island, to know what is going on, they were NOT trying to be morality police!!! That doesn't even make sense within the context of the show unless they have the sickness and are insane

My read is that Sayid is not a murderer, he's a trained interrogator...for him, when you tell someone to talk or you'll kill them, their first reaction is a huge cue about what to do next. Juliet dint flinch. He knew he was dealing with a tough cookie right there.

Later by the tree, she worked both Sayid and Sawyer again by showing NO fear, but instead defiance, and then bombed them both with the intimate knowledge she had.

Yup...she owned them. I hate her but she's good, she's Ben-good.

My read is that Sayid is not a murderer, he's a trained interrogator...for him, when you tell someone to talk or you'll kill them, their first reaction is a huge cue about what to do next. Juliet dint flinch. He knew he was dealing with a tough cookie right there.

Later by the tree, she worked both Sayid and Sawyer again by showing NO fear, but instead defiance, and then bombed them both with the intimate knowledge she had.

Yup...she owned them. I hate her but she's good, she's Ben-good.

Intimate knowledge? Sawyer had already confessed to killing someone to Kate, and Sayid never made any secret of the fact that he tortured people. In fact, he's openly done it twice on the island already.

Why would they be 'surprised' that Juliet knew these things? Both of them have experience with the others, and they both know the Others have extensive information on everyone. This could not possibly have been a shock.

It was a contrived scene, and it fell flat.

As for the whole "the last thing you two need is more blood on your hands", psh, she's one to talk! She's the one who can't afford to have Claire die on her. If she's talking about guilty consciences, she's tossing rocks from inside her own glass house, and Sayid and Sawyer would KNOW that. For all they know, she's simply a psychotic other. They know nothing of her past. They wouldn't ever concede defeat in a battle of 'morals' with an OTHER. Period.

It was definatley the Claire thing. Juliet asked them if they wanted her blood on their hands. As if they were going to stop her after that.

Intimate knowledge? Sawyer had already confessed to killing someone to Kate, and Sayid never made any secret of the fact that he tortured people. In fact, he's openly done it twice on the island already.

Why would they be 'surprised' that Juliet knew these things?

Because Sayid never mentioned anything about Basra, and Sawyer never said he killed anyone in Sydney, shortly before the flight...that's why.

It was all about Claire. If Claire's life hadn't been hanging in the balance, there's no way they would have let her go. The blood on their hands they were worried about was Claire. The scene makes perfect sense for that reason.

The lost writers apologists often come up with all kinds of far fetched reasoning why someone might do something on the show. The problem is that anyone MIGHT do anything, but it is not likely that they would keep doing the wrong thing over and over and over and over.

The lost writers haters often come up with all kinds of far fetched reasoning why someone might do something on the show. The problem is that anyone MIGHT do anything, but it is not likely that they would keep doing the wrong thing over and over and over and over.

Again - why take a chance with Claire, when Juliette will still be available afterwards for any questioning you might have. That is not apologistic to the writers, it is the smart and prudent thing to do when someone's life is in the balance.

I'm often critical of the writers - I just disagree with you on this point, and your logic above is flawed and paints with too broad of a brush (everyone who disagrees with you is an apologist, everyone who agrees is right).
100%

As for the whole "the last thing you two need is more blood on your hands", psh, she's one to talk! She's the one who can't afford to have Claire die on her.

Obviously - and that was what she was trying to do.

If she's talking about guilty consciences, she's tossing rocks from inside her own glass house, and Sayid and Sawyer would KNOW that.

Her guilt is irrelevant. All that matters is if Sayid and Sawyer are prepared to be responsible for Claire dying. This wasn't a morals contest.

For all they know, she's simply a psychotic other. They know nothing of her past. They wouldn't ever concede defeat in a battle of 'morals' with an OTHER. Period.

If it was a battle of morals, you would be right. But it wasn't her saying her morals were superior, it was her saying that Claire's death would be their fault if they delayed her.

OK - if it was "all about saving claire", then why the need for the silly morality dialogue?

If it was all about saving claire, why didnt they just let her go the second she stated her case about the medicine?

It wasnt all about claire. It was all about more selective stupidity of the characters.

Somebody please tell me what you think sayid and sawyer talked about 30 seconds after Juliet walked away? Do you really think they looked at each other and said "boy, she really just owned us!" or "now we are in trouble, she knows about us, lets stand here and talk about it."

30 seconds after Juliet walked away the obvious logical thing they would have done is tracked her down. Even conceding that they would let her help Claire - is there some kind of sickness on the island that doesnt allow you to talk and walk at the same time? Could they not have talked to her as they walked back?

Tell me please. Why wouldnt have Sayid and Sawyer walked up to her and said "we are going to go help claire. In fact we are going to force you to help claire. But on this 2 hour walk back to the beach you are going to tell us everything. And even then we might kill you anyway."

Come on. You have to agree that it makes no sense. Do you really think they stood there and kicked the ground and just mumbled "aw shucks she owned us" over and over?

OK - if it was "all about saving claire", then why the need for the silly morality dialogue?

The morality dialogue was to convince Sayid and Sawyer that they would be responsible for even more suffering, that of Claire, if they delayed her.

If it was all about saving claire, why didnt they just let her go the second she stated her case about the medicine?

I don't believe they were privy to the whole situation, and why she was there. I'll re-watch tonight and see if some of your comments ring true.

It wasnt all about claire. It was all about more selective stupidity of the characters.

That's your opinion. I disagree.

Somebody please tell me what you think sayid and sawyer talked about 30 seconds after Juliet walked away? Do you really think they looked at each other and said "boy, she really just owned us!" or "now we are in trouble, she knows about us, lets stand here and talk about it."

Why would anybody think that - did somebody suggest that they did that? They may have talked at length about how to get her later, after Claire was all right. I think that is a very plausible possibility.

30 seconds after Juliet walked away the obvious logical thing they would have done is tracked her down. Even conceding that they would let her help Claire - is there some kind of sickness on the island that doesnt allow you to talk and walk at the same time? Could they not have talked to her as they walked back?

Why force a confrontation with someone who holds a life in their hands? Let her help Claire, ask the questions later. She's not going anywhere. Totally reasonable.

Tell me please. Why wouldnt have Sayid and Sawyer walked up to her and said "we are going to go help claire. In fact we are going to force you to help claire. But on this 2 hour walk back to the beach you are going to tell us everything. And even then we might kill you anyway."

This doesn't make any sense at all. She was already going to help Claire - why threaten someone who is already going to help? How can that possibly help, and what do you gain? The proper strategy at that point is to let her help, then watch her and ask questions at the next opportunity.

Come on. You have to agree that it makes no sense. Do you really think they stood there and kicked the ground and just mumbled "aw shucks she owned us" over and over?

Why do you keep asking if anybody really thinks these things? Nobody has suggested it or anything close to it. Stop making straw man arguments.

Either way I answered above - they decided to back off, and may have discussed how they could question her in the future. If anything, Juliette demonstrated to them that she will not be easy to manipulate - and had the added advantage of having Claire's life in her hands.

Well Starman, we can agree to disagree.

I come at it from the side that their motivation is to stay alive and get off the island. Period. The logic is flawed that they wouldnt get as much intelligence as possible from someone who has intelligence and is questionable as to whether or not she is an enemy or friend.

They did nothing to help themselves. They did nothing to sustain their goals. They took a step backwards, and the reasoning is simply not compelling.

If anything, Juliette demonstrated to them that she will not be easy to manipulate - and had the added advantage of having Claire's life in her hands.


Exactly - Juliette had all of the power. She had all the information about them, they had none about her. She had the power to save Claire, they didn't even know what was wrong with her.

It wasn't a morality play, it was a power play. If someone came to me and told me things about my life that I thought no one living knew, it would make me question my ability to make a calculated move to force their hand (at least at that moment).

In other words, it's not about whether or not they are wimps, it's that they're not boneheaded oafs with no ability to calculate the consequences of acting hastily.

Well Starman, we can agree to disagree.

I come at it from the side that their motivation is to stay alive and get off the island. Period. The logic is flawed that they wouldnt get as much intelligence as possible from someone who has intelligence and is questionable as to whether or not she is an enemy or friend.

They did nothing to help themselves. They did nothing to sustain their goals. They took a step backwards, and the reasoning is simply not compelling.

Fair enough - the only thing I'll take umbrage with is that they really didn't take a step backward, they just stayed in the same place - with the step still being available for them to take as Juliette was last seen building a hut on their beach.

Perhaps as a tangent, I would suggest that Jack's speech to Juliette as to why HE doesn't ask questions is much more fitting of outrage. Of course I got the feeling that he wasn't being all that honest there himself. There's probabaly a thread somewhere else for that though.

Peace...

Fair enough - the only thing I'll take umbrage with is that they really didn't take a step backward, they just stayed in the same place - with the step still being available for them to take as Juliette was last seen building a hut on their beach.

Perhaps as a tangent, I would suggest that Jack's speech to Juliette as to why HE doesn't ask questions is much more fitting of outrage. Of course I got the feeling that he wasn't being all that honest there himself. There's probabaly a thread somewhere else for that though.

Peace...

Dont get me started on the Jack thing! lol.

Lost might be the only drama in history that not only do the characters never talk to each other about important things - they actually have conversations with each other about why they dont talk to each other about important things!

I guess im slightly neurotic, but it bugs me to no end.

Peace.

I saw no problems with the scene or the characters. Claire's life was not worth risking whether they believed Juliet or not. They just follow her back to camp from the tree and interrogate her later, assuming they want to or are capable. Why risk Clarie's life needlessly. Juliet wasn't going anywhere. She wasn't dragged to the Losties beach as a prisoner, she came willingly. Until Juliet mentioned that Claire needed the medicine immediately, I don't think they knew the direness of the situation. They assumed there was something bad in the case (e.g. guns). I'm not making excuses or being an apologist - that is exactly how I read the scene.

Even assuming that Sayid and Sawyer were suddenly guilted into submitting to Juliet's "we must get this medicine to Claire", she still did not have 'all of the power' in that situation. Juliet led them to the medicine, they had what they needed. All that needs to be done at that point is have Sawyer say "Fine, I'll take the meds to the Doc. You tell me what he needs to do to help Claire. Sayid, if I'm not back in a few hours to tell you that Claire is doing better, kill her. In the meantime, Juliet, you start talking or the Iraqi starts ripping fingernails off".

Why is everyone of the beachies a complete and utter moron, and so quick to let people who have all the answers out from under their thumb?

Claire needing help does not equate to Claire needing Juliet. Claire needed the medicine that Sawyer and Sayid were already in possession of. They did not need Juliet. If Juliet tells them the wrong information and Claire dies, the blood is on Juliet's hands (which it is anyway, since she was the one who did this to Claire to begin with). Otherwise, Jack and Sawyer should be able to handle the situation just fine without Juliet.

She has NO power in this situation, yet Sayid and Sawyer let her walk right out of it, as usual for this show.

She asked Sayid, "Did you tell them about Rosalind?" No, but somehow I have an idea there's a flashback coming eventually.


When did you hear her say Rosalind? I hear her saying "Do they know about Basra?" as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basra ? Or did I get that wrong?

Even assuming that Sayid and Sawyer were suddenly guilted into submitting to Juliet's "we must get this medicine to Claire", she still did not have 'all of the power' in that situation. Juliet led them to the medicine, they had what they needed. All that needs to be done at that point is have Sawyer say "Fine, I'll take the meds to the Doc. You tell me what he needs to do to help Claire. Sayid, if I'm not back in a few hours to tell you that Claire is doing better, kill her. In the meantime, Juliet, you start talking or the Iraqi starts ripping fingernails off".

Why is everyone of the beachies a complete and utter moron, and so quick to let people who have all the answers out from under their thumb?

Claire needing help does not equate to Claire needing Juliet. Claire needed the medicine that Sawyer and Sayid were already in possession of. They did not need Juliet. If Juliet tells them the wrong information and Claire dies, the blood is on Juliet's hands (which it is anyway, since she was the one who did this to Claire to begin with). Otherwise, Jack and Sawyer should be able to handle the situation just fine without Juliet.

She has NO power in this situation, yet Sayid and Sawyer let her walk right out of it, as usual for this show.

Very good post. I'm starting to rethink my views on this situation. I had given Sawyer and Sayid (or better yet the writers) the benefit of the doubt here, but you're right...that situation that you've set up, would have been absolutely the right play.

It was definitely Basra.

I don't think Sawyer and Sayid are whimps.

What were they to do? If they had held her, or restrained her and questioned her,...we were led to believe that Claire would die (without the injection).

I think Sayer and Sayid should just confess to the Losties what they did. Everybody knows they are no saints, and I doubt they would be ostracized for it. The Losties may be leary of them, but they will not be punished.

If Claire had died, not getting the injection, the Losties would have blamed Sawyer and Sayid for "interrogating" Juliet, and keeping her from giving Claire the injection.

IMO the injection was a hoax. Ben said they turned on the implant,....so then Ben could turn it off. Or, Claire may have gotten better on her own.

Even assuming that Sayid and Sawyer were suddenly guilted into submitting to Juliet's "we must get this medicine to Claire", she still did not have 'all of the power' in that situation. Juliet led them to the medicine, they had what they needed. All that needs to be done at that point is have Sawyer say "Fine, I'll take the meds to the Doc. You tell me what he needs to do to help Claire. Sayid, if I'm not back in a few hours to tell you that Claire is doing better, kill her. In the meantime, Juliet, you start talking or the Iraqi starts ripping fingernails off".

Except Sayid doesn't "do that anymore", or so we heard in this episode.

We also heard that Juliette is "under [Jack's] protection", adding another layer of power to Juliette's side. Sure, Sawyer might be able to take the meds and instructions back to Jack and leave her to be interrogated by a man who no longer tortures people by his own admission; but then what? A huge war between Sawyer and Jack and whoever among the losties sides with each?

Sawyer and Sayid embarked on the mission to get answers from Juliette and received new information that affected the relative wisdom of that particular tactic. Failing to press on in the face of that doesn't make them wimps.

When did you hear her say Rosalind? I hear her saying "Do they know about Basra?" as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basra ? Or did I get that wrong?


I guess I dreamed up a whole future flashback based on my poor hearing. Friends at work told me Juliet had said "Basra." Either that was where Sayid freed Nadia and murdered Omar, or there's STILL a future flashback to deal with Basra.

Except Sayid doesn't "do that anymore", or so we heard in this episode. That's beside the point. The point of having one of them stay with her while the other returns to the beach is to take the "You're preventing help from reaching Claire by detaining me" excuse away from Juliet. Once the 'Claire crisis' is out of the equation, Juliet would not have any way of getting out of at the very least a few hours of sit-down time with Sayid. He wouldn't have to torture her, but at least then she can't say "Sorry, I have to go save someone's life right now" to get out of it.

We also heard that Juliette is "under [Jack's] protection", adding another layer of power to Juliette's side. Sure, Sawyer might be able to take the meds and instructions back to Jack and leave her to be interrogated by a man who no longer tortures people by his own admission; but then what? A huge war between Sawyer and Jack and whoever among the losties sides with each? Sounds like an interesting plotline, why not? It would certainly be more compelling and believable than everyone just blindly and stupidly following Jack's idiotic 'orders'. Who elected him King of the beachies, anyway? Why can't anyone question Jack? It's about time someone did, in my opinion. Instead, we get flimsy excuses, idiotic characters, and no answers.

I'd rather have interesting, motivated, believable characters in-fighting than people just going "duh, OK Jack. You da boss." and not trying to figure things out for themselves.

Sawyer and Sayid embarked on the mission to get answers from Juliette and received new information that affected the relative wisdom of that particular tactic. Failing to press on in the face of that doesn't make them wimps. So change tactics to the scenario like I said. Claire's life does not require Juliet, it requires the meds. She has nothing to bargain with, but they let her walk out of the situation anyway.

I don't know who I wanted to shake more.( I like these guys :thumb_up: . I'm not bashing them ) Sawyer & Sayid for backing down or her for being a smug b*tch. I mean if you were either of these two men wouldn't you have asked her ---

"How the living he!! do you know that about me ???"

I mean come on this wench from OTHERSVILLE comes to YOUR camp and she has previously been from a group that threatens, terrorizes, and tortures you. She spouts off in your face by pulling out the darkest secrets of your past and you let her walk away and inject Claire ( who you like and trust) with some unknown drug? Give me a break.

The very least I would have told her to watch her step or I'd plant her beside her old buddy Ethan --- :rip: .

Another thing that bugged me is when Jack asked Charlie if he trusted him. I'd have told him no because I think he's been compromised (brainwashed) into trusting Juliet.
:tomato1: I know that last bit won't be popular with Jack's fans but thats my opinion. I just wonder if Jules pulled Kool-Aid from under a tree if Jack would expect our Losties to drink it and TRUST him. Maybe it's me BLIND TRUST is not something I give lightly.
100%
So change tactics to the scenario like I said. Claire's life does not require Juliet, it requires the meds. She has nothing to bargain with, but they let her walk out of the situation anyway.[/QUOTE]


GOOD POINT

I agree with Semisan ...that whole line about them trying to be the morality police was completely out of place. The situation had NOTHING to do with morality, it had to do with survival.

And Pink, Juliet may be good, but we know that both Sayid and Sawyer are VERY good at what they do. No way she would have owned them BOTH like that.

Why did they follow her to begin with? If they didn’t already know she was going to get meds for Claire, then where did they THINK she was headed? None of it makes any sense and what’s worse is that there was no reason for the scene!

They often write stupid things because it is necessary to move the plot along, but if that scene was supposed to explain why the Losties are not going to pressure Juliet, it failed miserably.

Also, as Vertical said, why isn’t anyone questioning Jack? After Michael spent some time with the Others, he was compromised enough to kill some Losties and try to send others in to a trap. What makes any of the Losties think Jack has not been similarly compromised? Why would they believe anything JACK says at this point?

It’s a relief to see I was not the only one that was bursting with frustration at this pathetic scene.

Just to re-iterate - yes, they could have done something different and try to get Juliette to talk and save Claire. But why antagonize the person who not only has the life saving medicine, but knows exactly what is wrong with Claire, knows the dosage, knows where to inject and might know how to deal with any other problems the implant may cause? Again - Juliette wasn't going anywhere. Regroup and go back to her later.

Of course - they may prove me wrong by never approaching her again, at which point I will return to the thread and concede.

I wonder if maybe some people are more disappointed that they were denied a moment to get some real answers, rather than looking logically at the fictional situation presented.

Try this - imagine it is your sister that is sick, how would you want those two guys to act in that situation. Would you want them to do anything other than back off allow the person to help?

They both realized that she needed to get the medicine back to Claire. I think they were following her in the first place to make sure she was indeed getting Claire's medicine.

Think about these two guys' pasts. Interrogation and the long con take incredible patience, the ability to pick your spots, and knowing when to bide your time. They both showed great restraint in not pressing the issue then, because we know they want answers.

Calling them wimps (or making a "bad writing" accusation) because they didn't press ahead blindly with the torture scene is incredibly short-sighted...given that this IS Lost, where nothing happens quickly.

I think it was a combination of them not wanting to risk Claire's life and that they had done a misscalculation. They didn't think the Other's had as much intel as they have. I don't think Sawyer cares about Sayid knowing that he killed a man and Sawyer already knew Sayid was a torturer. They are both patient and needed to rethink. They are not the kind of people that do things hasty. For now, they let her save Claire and went back to rethink their strategy. They don't trust her, but they need a plan. Questioning also takes time.

Sounds like an interesting plotline, why not? It would certainly be more compelling and believable than everyone just blindly and stupidly following Jack's idiotic 'orders'. Who elected him King of the beachies, anyway?

Well, someone has to do it, otherwise, everyone would be ready to pounce on Juliet. I'm not saying that people should just blindly accept her, but did you not see when Jack made the comment that sooner or later, she would have to answer their questions? Jack is aware that things aren't going to be easy, which is why he has taken her under his wing. I think it makes for interesting drama, but for some reason, the online fandom is ready to burn Jack at the stake for "possibly" placing some faith in Juliet. :rolleyes: It's apparently alright for Charlie to steal Clare's baby twice and to act like a complete lunatic and for Sawyer to mastermind attempts on Sun's kidnapping, but it's not alright for Jack to "possibly" place a little trust in Juliet?

Just for the record, I don't think Sawyer is a wimp, but I think it's about time his actions don't get over looked with a " he's Sawyer, everything he does is alright" mantra. He behaved self-righteous with Juliet and he should be called out on it.

Just needed to vent the fact that Sawyer and Sayid totally disappointed by being pushed over by Juliet. They showed up all tough and hard and ready to pound some answers out of her, and she just shut them down.

Sorry- but what a couple of *mod edit* pansies*.

haha, I had to laugh at the name of this thread. they should have shot Juliet and let Claire die. Bollocks to them all

but did you not see when Jack made the comment that sooner or later, she would have to answer their questions?

Jack is playing the "good cop" thing while the other losties are the "bad cops". Let's see who get's the answers first ;)

haha, I had to laugh at the name of this thread. they should have shot Juliet and let Claire die. Bollocks to them all

Beautiful! Thank you for putting into three sentences what I have been trying to say in paragraphs!

Jack is playing the "good cop" thing while the other losties are the "bad cops". Let's see who get's the answers first ;)

I doubt the bad cops are going to get answers first, because these are the "others" after all. Remember when Sayid tried his best to torture Ben for some answers when he was locked up in the hatch? It didn't work. These people don't cave easily.

I doubt the bad cops are going to get answers first, because these are the "others" after all. Remember when Sayid tried his best to torture Ben for some answers when he was locked up in the hatch? It didn't work. These people don't cave easily.

Yes, but Ben is much more of an 'other' than Juliet. I think she would gladly cooperate with the losties if she thought they had a snowball's chance in hell of getting her home.

Yes, but Ben is much more of an 'other' than Juliet. I think she would gladly cooperate with the losties if she thought they had a snowball's chance in hell of getting her home.
Yes, but that's exactly the point. The Losties don't have what Juliet wants most. They have no way off the island. Ben might still have (I doubt the sub really was the only way off the island). And for as long as that doesn't change, Juliet has no reason to cooperate with the Losties if she has still a chance of standing with Ben and the Others. Not if all she turly wants is getting off the island, because then her only chance right now lies with Ben.
As for Sawyer and Sayid - I was slightly disappointed by how that situation was handled. But then I thought it doesn't so much matter. Neither Sawyer nor Sayid will change their attitude towards one another after that revelation, and I doubt that Juliet can use it as a means of blackmail against them in the future ("I'll tell everybody that you killed a man if you don't...").
So I think they're just stepping back for the moment, but I think if anything, they'll be watching her even more closely now.

I don't really care whether or not Sawyer and Sayid are both big man-babies, or whether or not Juliet is a liar-faced meanie ;) But I do think this scene told us something important about all of their characters.

Sawyer and Sayid are definitlely very good at manipulating people, being the con artist and interrogator that they are. But like Ben said, the Others (meaning Juliet) are better. She took a page from Ben's book and exploited Sawyer and Sayid's weakest points; their guilt about the past. This is the one thing that they're most afriad of. And, on top of the standard gulit trip, Juliet shifted the burden of Claire's possible death onto their shoulders, I suppose the idea is that they were both feeling so guilty that they couldn't stand the idea of even being partially responsible for another death.

The "take home point" that I got out of this scene is that the 815ers are going to have to move on, to put their pasts behind them, before they can compete with the Others.

I'll always love Juliet for zinging those two sanctimonius scumbags like that. It really *was* laughable that those two professional murderers were getting all high and mighty with her.

And for those in the "beat the crap out of Juliet NOW" faction here, they realized that she had them cornered. I mean, Sayid doesn't "do that" any more, does he? Or is he just the same despicable, murderous cobag he's always been?

It really *was* laughable that those two professional murderers were getting all high and mighty with her. If someone breaks into your house, would you confront him? And if he says "Remember that time you [insert bad thing here]?" are you just going to back down and let him go about stealing your possessions and endangering your family?

This wasn't about morality and ego. This was about survival. And we know from the final scene they were absolutely right not to trust her.