I'm sure I'm opening a can of worms by asking this, but Desmond repeatedly stated that if anything changed in the puzzle, the picture would be different. He was expecting Penny, but after saving Charlie, he got Naomi (her name on the press release).

So, I have to ask: Did saving Charlie somehow cause Naomi to fall out of the sky, instead of Penny?

That's quite possible. Desmond did say that the events had to happen exactly as he saw them for the "correct" outcome to occur. Perhaps Desmond changing the future changes other factors as well.

I was thinking the exact same thing. She was obviously with/ or knew Penny since she had the picture and knew Desmond's name. You don't think Penny is now floating out in the ocean with the helicopter wreckage???

I was thinking this exact thing jenny...except that I cannot fathom the idea of Penny actually jumping out of a helicopter. Other than that I think he might have tweaked fate once again and got Naomi. Perhaps, though...Penny landed elsewhere on the island. I am hoping if she did she is somewhere with Ben and Co...b/c that could make for a great story.

I'm sure I'm opening a can of worms by asking this, but Desmond repeatedly stated that if anything changed in the puzzle, the picture would be different. He was expecting Penny, but after saving Charlie, he got Naomi (her name on the press release).

So, I have to ask: Did saving Charlie somehow cause Naomi to fall out of the sky, instead of Penny?

I don't think so. I mean if Penny isn't sure if Desmond is on the island I don't think she would risk her own life. If she would have died she couldn't keep looking for Desmond. Besides in Desmond's flashes he never saw Penny. He just assumed it from the photo he saw. But Naomi is also somehow connected as we hear her say "Desmond".

I don't think Pen would have been there instead. But that's just me.

Jenny, is Naomi the woman of consequence who would show up about this time who was of some kind of undistinct nationality?
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So Naomi must be one of the people helping Pen look for Des, right?

maybe she is in the 'box'

Just to disagree with my own proposition, the book in the backpack was the Portugese version of Catch-22 (it was shown in the preview last week). So, she could easily be a part of Penny's rescue team. And since that book was shown BEFORE Desmond saved Charlie, it was probably Naomi all along.

But, I wanted to put it out there to see what you all had to say.

Yeah I think it was Naomi the whole time, and that she was sent by Penny to look for Desmond and the other survivors.

Naomi is Ruth's mother-in-law in the Bible. I just thought that was interesting, given his first girl friend Ruth and all the other Biblical references.

Cardie

Jenny, is Naomi the woman of consequence who would show up about this time who was of some kind of undistinct nationality?
That's her! I think we know her character's nationality is meant to be Portugese.

I'm sure I'm opening a can of worms by asking this, but Desmond repeatedly stated that if anything changed in the puzzle, the picture would be different. He was expecting Penny, but after saving Charlie, he got Naomi (her name on the press release).

So, I have to ask: Did saving Charlie somehow cause Naomi to fall out of the sky, instead of Penny?
That would be the Catch-22, especially if (heaven forbid) Penny's in the ocean now.. Desmond changes time in order to get Penny... And he gets her, but she's dead..

I don't think so. I mean if Penny isn't sure if Desmond is on the island I don't think she would risk her own life. If she would have died she couldn't keep looking for Desmond. Besides in Desmond's flashes he never saw Penny. He just assumed it from the photo he saw. But Naomi is also somehow connected as we hear her say "Desmond".This is what I think.

I think it was always Naomi. Like Jenny pointed out, we saw her backpack first before Desmond chose to change events. Why would Penny read a book in Portuguese? Also, Desmond didn't see Penny unmasked in the flashes... He saw Penny, but that could have happened way in the future.

Also, in his flashes, Charlie is helping with catching the parachutist. The only way Charlie could have helped is if Desmond had already changed the events he saw previously that had Charlie dying. So...Desmond inadvertently followed his own script?

I think it was always Naomi. Like Jenny pointed out, we saw her backpack first before Desmond chose to change events. Why would Penny read a book in Portuguese? Also, Desmond didn't see Penny unmasked in the flashes... He saw Penny, but that could have happened way in the future.

Also, in his flashes, Charlie is helping with catching the parachutist. The only way Charlie could have helped is if Desmond had already changed the events he saw previously that had Charlie dying. So...Desmond inadvertently followed his own script?

Two great points verily. I'm in the camp that thinks it was always Naomi and Desmond's act of saving Charlie in the nick of time didn't change things enough to make a difference. Maybe that means Charlie really doesn't have to die for events to unfold. For all we know, Desmond saving Charlie three times before could be what brought the parachute rescue about.

It would seem that we have a Schroedinger's Cat situation here. For those of you unfamiliar with it, it's a concept in quatum mechanics that says that if you have a box, with a cat in it, not only is there no way to tell that the cat is dead or alive without opening the box, but until the box is opened (or otherwise observed) the cat is both alive and dead, or neither, Here's a link that can explain it better than I:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schroedinger%27s_cat

Because the parachutist had already jumped by the time Charlie was supposed to get stuck with the arrow, Charlie couldn't affect who had jumped in the past. In theory, anything that happened after the people boarded the helicopter couldn't effect the people in it. Except if you have Schoedinger's Cat. unfortuately this principle only applies to quantum mechanics and not the macroscopic world.

So, in the real world, Charlie getting shot or not would not change who the parachutist is, But then again, Lost isn't the real world,

I don't think that Desmond saving Charlie had any effect on who was haning in the tree. Desmond never actually saw Penny on the island, he saw her in memories within his vision, but he may have a hard time realizing that at first. I think initially he'll be so disappointed that Penny is not the one there that he may blame himself.

Also, in his flashes, Charlie is helping with catching the parachutist. The only way Charlie could have helped is if Desmond had already changed the events he saw previously that had Charlie dying. So...Desmond inadvertently followed his own script?
Wow, I completey missed that. Guess Desmond did too. But in some way, that doesn't make sense to me... unless his flashes also contained reference to him changing the storyline. Maybe that's what you're suggesting actually? That the script all along was for Desmond to see Charlie die, save him and then bring Charlie to the parachutist.

So, this actually makes it a flash within a flash. Desmond didn't see Charlie die, because Charlie never was going to die. He was always going to catch Naomi. What Desmond saw was himself seeing Charlie die.

Cue head explosion now.

He said he only saw puzzle pieces though, not the whole picture, so Desmond didn't know if Charlie would be there to rescue the parachutist. He only saw him die and then flashes of someone hanging in a tree. We don't know if Charlie was there for the rescue in Desmond's vision.

Unless we saw more than what Desmond saw, Hurley, Jin, and Charlie were seen spreading out the parachute. (EDIT: Twice actually...we get a repeat of that parachutist part of the flash).

And Jenny, bingo. That's exactly what I'm trying to say. I think Desmond didn't realize it, but he was following his flashes exactly, so nothing was changed.

i don't think that by changing his premonitions he's changing reality. he's already saved charlie 3 times now, and i doubt that TPTB want us to think that he somehow changed reality 3 times as well. what did he change each time? since that hasn't been addressed before, i don't think it's relevant now with the penny/naomi thing.

i just think desmond really really wanted it to be penny, and he was paranoid that changing anything in his vision would result in penny's death or it being someone else. i wouldn't read too much into it...

I think this sequence was more about Charlie and less about Penny. Someone/thing is testing Desmond, and Charlie is the catalyst. In the end, Desmond is going to have to allow Charlie to "die" in order to demonstrate his faith. The thing is, Charlie won't die because the "higher power" who is pulling the strings here will pull Charlie from the fire.

I'm confused, I haven't really read many spoilers so this was all new to me and I can't remember a few details. Did Desmond see that the parachutist was Penny in his flashes, or was he just assuming it was her?

A couple of things. Desmond told Hurley that he saw things out of order, and told Charlie that once he changes something he sees, everything else changes too. In the early flashes, we saw those combat boots hanging in the air from the pilot of the helicopter.
He only assumed it was Penny, since he saw the picture in a flashback too.

So, what exactly does Desmond think he changed when he saved Hurley? He thought he missed saving Penny, but it turned out to be another woman. Is that what he think he changed? I find that a little hard to believe, since Penny probably wouldn't have jumped into a helicopter to go searching around the ocean.

I think the more interesting question is: Where did that helicopter come from? (Are we even sure it was a helicopter, and not a jet?) Helicopters don't have really big ranges; it had to come from somewhere close, maybe land, but more likely a ship.

I think this sequence was more about Charlie and less about Penny. Someone/thing is testing Desmond, and Charlie is the catalyst. In the end, Desmond is going to have to allow Charlie to "die" in order to demonstrate his faith. The thing is, Charlie won't die because the "higher power" who is pulling the strings here will pull Charlie from the fire.

I think you're right. It would parallel the Abraham story if Desmond had faith that Charlie would be okay and something swoops in and saves him because Desmond passed the test.

To parallel the Abraham/Isaac story, Desmond would have to believe that leaving Charlie in God's hands was the right thing to do. If he was sure Charlie would be OK then that isn't really a test of faith.

Cardie

A couple of things. Desmond told Hurley that he saw things out of order, and told Charlie that once he changes something he sees, everything else changes too. In the early flashes, we saw those combat boots hanging in the air from the pilot of the helicopter.
He only assumed it was Penny, since he saw the picture in a flashback too.

So, what exactly does Desmond think he changed when he saved Hurley? He thought he missed saving Penny, but it turned out to be another woman. Is that what he think he changed? I find that a little hard to believe, since Penny probably wouldn't have jumped into a helicopter to go searching around the ocean.

I think the more interesting question is: Where did that helicopter come from? (Are we even sure it was a helicopter, and not a jet?) Helicopters don't have really big ranges; it had to come from somewhere close, maybe land, but more likely a ship.


I think the helicopter did come from a ship, the same one that we saw Penny on in last year's season finale. Penny is very close to the Island......

I initially thought, "well maybe it's Penny who is the parachutist" since Desmond kept having flashes of her. But actually what he had flashes of was the PICTURE of he and Penny, and it was the last of flashes. Then he found the picture of them on the parachutist. So I think that he did not change time at all.

To parallel the Abraham/Isaac story, Desmond would have to believe that leaving Charlie in God's hands was the right thing to do. If he was sure Charlie would be OK then that isn't really a test of faith.

Cardie

Right. In the end, Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son because he had faith that God had the ability to resurrect his son at a later time. God had to send an angel to intervene at the last minute. I can see a definate parallel with Desmond. At some point in the future Desmond will put the proverbial sacrificial knife to Abraham's throat aand as he's ready to "strike", and "angel" will step forward and save the day.

It sure seemed that way, Jenny.
However, when I got to thinking about it, it made me wonder if the parachutist was originally Penny and changed to Naomi OR if Des just didn't see Charlie helping with the parachute to catch the parachutist (that's tough to type that many times! :))
I know he saw Charlie die by the arrow and I was worried that it seemed that Des was tired of saving him. I think it's still unclear whether he changed the future or not because we don't know if the identity of the parachutist was Penny when she left the helicopter. Does that make sense?? :shrug:

I initially thought, "well maybe it's Penny who is the parachutist" since Desmond kept having flashes of her. But actually what he had flashes of was the PICTURE of he and Penny, and it was the last of flashes. Then he found the picture of them on the parachutist. So I think that he did not change time at all.

I think someone is testing Desmond, and one of the ways that's happening is by giving him an incomplete vision of sequential events. To Desmond, his reuniting with Penny hinges on allowing his interpretation of events to fall into place. The reality is Desmond's incomplete version of events has created a crisis of faith, as the life of another (Charlie) repeatedly hangs in the balance. Once Desmond can let Charlie go, he'll be reunited with Penny. Until that happens, Penny will remain at arm's length.

To parallel the Abraham/Isaac story, Desmond would have to believe that leaving Charlie in God's hands was the right thing to do. If he was sure Charlie would be OK then that isn't really a test of faith.

Cardie

Sorry Cardie. I was being imprecise, but you said it much better than I did.

Okay I was following pretty well until I got to the flashes within the flash -- Desmond didn't actually see Charlie die, he saw himself see Charlie die... :blink: I think it's finally beginning to settle in now....

I don't think that Desmond changed who the parachutist was. I mean say he HAD let Charlie die, how would that have changed anything?? In fact I dare say he might not have made it to the parachutist in that case, they'd have been so caught up in Charlie's death.

I actually don't think that Desmond will let Charlie go, in fact I believe he will continue to try to save him each and every time. Perhaps the way Charlie dies (if he does), is sacrificing himself to let Desmond reunite with Penny. This episode I could really see how touched Charlie was by Des' love for her. So maybe knowing that there is only one way out of the cycle, he gives in.

I'm confused, I haven't really read many spoilers so this was all new to me and I can't remember a few details. Did Desmond see that the parachutist was Penny in his flashes, or was he just assuming it was her?
The flashes weren't specifically described in any spoilers, so I think we're all on the same footing. From what I could tell, Desmond assumed it was Penny based on seeing the picture.

To parallel the Abraham/Isaac story, Desmond would have to believe that leaving Charlie in God's hands was the right thing to do. If he was sure Charlie would be OK then that isn't really a test of faith.

Cardie
No, it's not an example of God testing Desmond's faith. But, it is an example of Desmond testing that his faith (in God, the island, whatever) is well placed.

Right? :redface:

Okay I was following pretty well until I got to the flashes within the flash -- Desmond didn't actually see Charlie die, he saw himself see Charlie die... :blink: I think it's finally beginning to settle in now....
Yeah me too, sorry about that. I just think that his flashes contained BOTH Charlie dying and Charlie catching Naomi, that clearly only one of those things could happen. And since we know he lived, the flash of Charlie dying wasn't something that happened, but something Desmond thought would happen.

Yeah, that wouldn't make sense even if it was in Korean.

I actually don't think that Desmond will let Charlie go, in fact I believe he will continue to try to save him each and every time. Perhaps the way Charlie dies (if he does), is sacrificing himself to let Desmond reunite with Penny. This episode I could really see how touched Charlie was by Des' love for her. So maybe knowing that there is only one way out of the cycle, he gives in.
I agree. Charlie will try to make a sacrifice. And I think just like Isaac, he will be allowed to live.

I agree. Charlie will try to make a sacrifice. And I think just like Isaac, he will be allowed to live.

From your lips to God's ears. :biggrin:

I agree with you that it will be Charlie that will force Desmond's hands. This deception was a critical turning point for Charlie. He has learned not to put his faith in Desmond, he'll have to place it somewhere higher. Desmond will insist on saving him over and over until Charlie puts his foot down and tells him to stop. Interesting character development for Charlie, as I'm sure it's something he never thought he would do when he first learned of Desmond's visions. He only wanted Desmond to save him. That will change. It's as much a leap of faith for Charlie as it is for Desmond and that's why Charlie will live.

...i just think desmond really really wanted it to be penny, and he was paranoid that changing anything in his vision would result in penny's death or it being someone else. i wouldn't read too much into it...

That's what I'm thining too.

He didn't want anything to change...'cept for the whole "Charlie dies" part. :) From his vision, he knew he'd have a couple of seconds to save Charlie again.

His goal was to get to the parachute, thinking/hoping it was Penny.

Hello All

The thing with Desmonds flashes that botheres me, with this one and the one in Par Avion, is that if he hadnt had the flashes would things have still worked out the same? What i'm trying to ask is Hurley looked for the cable from the beach into the jungle because of Desmond, if Desmond hadnt said anything would they have gone into the jungle anyway?

So by Desmond having these flashes he is causing the events to happen not just seeing them before they happen

hmmm i'm not sure if i'm making sense as it is a bit of a 'which came first, the chicken or the egg?' question, but please can anyone help me as i am gettinga headache thinking about it :biggrin:

Hello All

The thing with Desmonds flashes that botheres me, with this one and the one in Par Avion, is that if he hadnt had the flashes would things have still worked out the same? What i'm trying to ask is Hurley looked for the cable from the beach into the jungle because of Desmond, if Desmond hadnt said anything would they have gone into the jungle anyway?

So by Desmond having these flashes he is causing the events to happen not just seeing them before they happen

hmmm i'm not sure if i'm making sense as it is a bit of a 'which came first, the chicken or the egg?' question, but please can anyone help me as i am gettinga headache thinking about it :biggrin:


There's a seperate thread on this very issue. Go here: http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=76737

No. I don't see how saving Charlie at that particular moment in time would change the identity of the person who already landed in the trees on the island.

The only way it works is if people from the future are trying to effect events on the island in current time. If that was the case, then perhaps Charlie being alive would effect the decision of who was sent back in time to land on the island.

maybe she is in the 'box'

This was my thought as well. To carry the theory further, Desmond's whole ability could be "in the box" as it were. If the island gives you whatever you ask for, perhaps it gave Desmond the chance to go back in time and try to rechoose, and the chance to rescue Charlie over and over. Perhaps the parachutist wasn't Penny because Desmond BELEIVED he had altered time, if that makes sense.

There's a seperate thread on this very issue. Go here: http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=76737

Ahh thank you for that Pacejunkie, i'll go and see if i can ease my headache :biggrin:

I think that is a related question though. Well, it is related in that, you have to believe that what Desmond sees in his flashes is set, and that the answer to my original question here is No.

I just can't see how saving Charlie would have changed who the person was that already ditched into the jungle.

See this whole line of thinking relies on cause and effect.

The CAUSE -- Desmond being missing and Penny tracking the anomoly has already occurred. How does saving Charlie affect that cause? It doesn't IMO.

From your lips to God's ears. :biggrin:

I agree with you that it will be Charlie that will force Desmond's hands. This deception was a critical turning point for Charlie. He has learned not to put his faith in Desmond, he'll have to place it somewhere higher. Desmond will insist on saving him over and over until Charlie puts his foot down and tells him to stop. Interesting character development for Charlie, as I'm sure it's something he never thought he would do when he first learned of Desmond's visions. He only wanted Desmond to save him. That will change. It's as much a leap of faith for Charlie as it is for Desmond and that's why Charlie will live.

Even before Desmond became the resident Charlie saver, Charlie fell into the same pattern with Locke and then Claire. Even Sawyer and Eko got to guide him for a bit. He has continually reached out to others to "save" him. Claire ended up rejecting him. Locke punched him. Sawyer almost turned him to a ring wraith by leading him to attack Sun. Eko was probably the most constructive with getting Charlie to put his energy into building something. But then Eko died.

At that point, Charlie finds a new leader- Desmond. Desmond who handily holds Charlie's fate within his brain. I'm not sure if Charlie will survive the season. There appears to be a slight pattern of killing off characters once they have worked through their major issues. However, I am sure that Charlie will evolve beyond his current neediness before or in the finale. I will be glad to see this change.
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I think that is a related question though. Well, it is related in that, you have to believe that what Desmond sees in his flashes is set, and that the answer to my original question here is No.

oops, i just went on a whole bowl of tangent up there. it's a good original question that provokes a lot of discussion. :)

This just crossed my mind... what Desmond is seeing is like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, correct? And so it becomes a matter of putting those pieces together to form the picture that the Island (or whomever) has "willed" you to.

What I think is going on here is that there are two puzzles. Maybe the most trying aspect of solving whatever puzzle you're working on is figuring out which pieces don't fit. The battle is in picking one puzzle or the other and sticking to it, otherwise if the two are mixed together too much, the whole universe would just explode.

Well that's enough crack slinging for one day I reckon, mmhmm.

Yeah me too, sorry about that. I just think that his flashes contained BOTH Charlie dying and Charlie catching (this name is a spoiler until it is told to us in an ep), that clearly only one of those things could happen. And since we know he lived, the flash of Charlie dying wasn't something that happened, but something Desmond thought would happen.

Yeah, that wouldn't make sense even if it was in Korean.


LOL!! Yeah I think I got it now....

I dont see how, Charlie dying and Penny being the parachutist are not related in the slightest.

How does one affect the other?

I'm sure I'm opening a can of worms by asking this, but Desmond repeatedly stated that if anything changed in the puzzle, the picture would be different. He was expecting Penny, but after saving Charlie, he got (this name is a spoiler until it is told to us in an ep) (her name on the press release).

So, I have to ask: Did saving Charlie somehow cause (this name is a spoiler until it is told to us in an ep) to fall out of the sky, instead of Penny?

Good thought there Jennylee. For me, 3 things come to mind.

Either this last minute change (saving Charlie's life) made you know who switch place with Penny at the very last minute.

You know who was the one in the parachute all along or,

Something else entirely different and yet unseen has changed.

I remember the old lady saying that even if you tried and prevented something like a death to happen, it would happen anyways the next day and the next etc...but she didnt mention anything about the actions these people that are being saved (Charlie, for example) have with the future...What I mean is by keeping Charlie alive now 4 times, did Charlie do/say something that will have huge consequences later on for the Losties? Should Des have let die Charlie electrocuted in the first place?

We all think that what changed was inside the parachute...It could well be something else. I cant wait for the Mai 2nd eppy!

I watched the flashes in very slow motion again and it occurred to me that the shot of Penny being in the jungle doesn't have to mean she was the parachuter - in a different scenario that didn't end up happening..

Penny in the jungle could very well be a result of the course that Desmond took (saving Charlie). Only it will occur far down the road - maybe in the series finale..

I remember the old lady saying that even if you tried and prevented something like a death to happen, it would happen anyways the next day and the next etc...but she didnt mention anything about the actions these people that are being saved (Charlie, for example) have with the future...What I mean is by keeping Charlie alive now 4 times, did Charlie do/say something that will have huge consequences later on for the Losties?That's why I always thought the "Universe course correcting" mumbo jumbo made no sense. Keeping Charlie alive already has changed the future. A lot can happen between the time a person is "supposed" to die and the time he actually does. His continued existence will have ripple effects. Another reason I think the Ring Lady was the dumbest thing to happen to the series.

[QUOTE=Admiral Erik Pressman;1501572]It would seem that we have a Schroedinger's Cat situation here. For those of you unfamiliar with it, it's a concept in quatum mechanics that says that if you have a box, with a cat in it, not only is there no way to tell that the cat is dead or alive without opening the box, but until the box is opened (or otherwise observed) the cat is both alive and dead, or neither, Here's a link that can explain it better than I:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schroedinger%27s_cat

I think you're on to something here. Just like the cat Charlie was in a mixture of two potential outcomes. Desmond saving his life is essentially opening the box, it forces a determination to be made between the two potential states. There is an alternate theory presented on the link that the person opening the box and the cat split the universe around them into the two possible outcomes.

Desmond’s flashes were to me premonitions of possible future events. His actions selected one course over another leading to one of many possible futures.

I have trouble equating changing the future course of events with changing time. To me changing time implies changing the past. Here Desmond affected the future, That is something we all do with our daily choices.

I'm sure I'm opening a can of worms by asking this, but Desmond repeatedly stated that if anything changed in the puzzle, the picture would be different. He was expecting Penny, but after saving Charlie, he got (this name is a spoiler until it is told to us in an ep) (her name on the press release).

So, I have to ask: Did saving Charlie somehow cause (this name is a spoiler until it is told to us in an ep) to fall out of the sky, instead of Penny?

I don't think so especially since a screen cap was posted showing that Charlie was one of the guys holding the Parachute in Desmond's vision. I think the vision of Charlie getting hit by the arrow was just a warning about the trap
http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/

This was my thought as well. To carry the theory further, Desmond's whole ability could be "in the box" as it were. If the island gives you whatever you ask for, perhaps it gave Desmond the chance to go back in time and try to rechoose, and the chance to rescue Charlie over and over. Perhaps the parachutist wasn't Penny because Desmond BELEIVED he had altered time, if that makes sense.

The story has not been told as if it has anything to do with the box. It has to do with the hatch implosion and Desmonds proximity to the magnetic anomaly behind the failsafe.

About changing time. You have understand that desmond was wrong..it wasnt Penny--it was someone sent by Penny. All he changed was that Charlie didnt die--just like he did the other 3 times. The only other possibilty, to me, is that the girl died originally but in saving charlie he saved the girl

About the supposed shot of Penny in the jungle--there was no such shot. That was a scene from "Flashes"--there was a park bench in the background BTW

I think you're right. It would parallel the Abraham story if Desmond had faith that Charlie would be okay and something swoops in and saves him because Desmond passed the test.


My thought as I watched the show was that Charlie would be hit by the arrow, but that
it would not be fatal to him. I do think that by "saving" Charlie, Desmond has altered
a timeline. Maybe it has not changed in the way he was expecting and the parachutist
is the same person as always, but something else has changed that we are unaware of
so far.


From what we can see so far, Desmond cannot alter fate. If Charlie is fated to die, then
he will die, but in a different manner. Likewise, if Desmond is fated to meet Penny, then
he will, but perhaps not at the exact time as before. The Ring Lady in the shop makes
a different implication, but we're not even sure where or when that takes place - or if
it did at all.
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I dont see how, Charlie dying and Penny being the parachutist are not related in the slightest.

How does one affect the other?


Butterfly Effect is one possibility, but there are others.
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Good thought there Jennylee. For me, 3 things come to mind.

Either this last minute change (saving Charlie's life) made you know who switch place with Penny at the very last minute.

You know who was the one in the parachute all along or,

Something else entirely different and yet unseen has changed.

I remember the old lady saying that even if you tried and prevented something like a death to happen, it would happen anyways the next day and the next etc...but she didnt mention anything about the actions these people that are being saved (Charlie, for example) have with the future...What I mean is by keeping Charlie alive now 4 times, did Charlie do/say something that will have huge consequences later on for the Losties? Should Des have let die Charlie electrocuted in the first place?

We all think that what changed was inside the parachute...It could well be something else. I cant wait for the Mai 2nd eppy!


Exactly. Also, good point about how saving Charlie may not work out to be for the
best in the end. We just don't know.
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That's why I always thought the "Universe course correcting" mumbo jumbo made no sense. Keeping Charlie alive already has changed the future. A lot can happen between the time a person is "supposed" to die and the time he actually does. His continued existence will have ripple effects. Another reason I think the Ring Lady was the dumbest thing to happen to the series.


Yes, it will have ripple effects. And?

From what we can see so far, Desmond cannot alter fate. If Charlie is fated to die, then he will die, but in a different manner.Well sure, everyone is "fated" to die at some point. You must have a pretty lax definition of Fate if it is unable to apply to either the time or method of one's death.

The way it appears in the show is Charlie was fated to die by a lightning strike. In changing that, Desmond changed fate.

Personally, I've always understood the concept of Fate to be one of immutable destiny. For instance, Charlie could not possibly have been fated to die by lightning strike, as he was saved by Desmond. If it was his fate, nothing Desmond could do would have changed it.

It doesn't look like TPTB have adopted this idea, however. The way they had the Ring Lady describe it, Fate is some sort of supernatural consciousness which will hunt you down and kill you if somehow you escape your intended "plan." Anyway...

I dont see how, Charlie dying and Penny being the parachutist are not related in the slightest. How does one affect the other?

Butterfly Effect is one possibility, but there are others.How would the Butterfly Effect apply here? The parachutist was already on the island, so how could Charlie's death physically change who was wearing the parachute the night before?

A lot can happen between the time a person is "supposed" to die and the time he actually does. His continued existence will have ripple effects.

Yes, it will have ripple effects. And?Butterfly Effect. Q.E.D.

I'm sure I'm opening a can of worms by asking this, but Desmond repeatedly stated that if anything changed in the puzzle, the picture would be different. He was expecting Penny, but after saving Charlie, he got (this name is a spoiler until it is told to us in an ep) (her name on the press release).

So, I have to ask: Did saving Charlie somehow cause (this name is a spoiler until it is told to us in an ep) to fall out of the sky, instead of Penny?

Yes, Interesting theory. By saving Charlie, Maybe this will lead to somebodies else's death! Desmond should not be messing with reality and time like this! Because it could all turn on him sometime. :eek2: When Desmond saved charlie, I thought the arrow had hit Jin instead! Luckily it didnt!!!

I'm sure I'm opening a can of worms by asking this, but Desmond repeatedly stated that if anything changed in the puzzle, the picture would be different. He was expecting Penny, but after saving Charlie, he got (this name is a spoiler until it is told to us in an ep) (her name on the press release).

So, I have to ask: Did saving Charlie somehow cause (this name is a spoiler until it is told to us in an ep) to fall out of the sky, instead of Penny?

That's quite possible. Desmond did say that the events had to happen exactly as he saw them for the "correct" outcome to occur. Perhaps Desmond changing the future changes other factors as well.


Yes, it's possible that Desmond did change the future by saving Charlie but it's impossible that by saving Charlie he stopped Penny coming to the island. He thought it was Penny, he was wrong. The photo was probably brought to the island as proof etc.

However, Desmond didn't really change anything. He saw a chain of events and prevented Charlie's death. No one knows what happened after that so in theory he changed nothing. No one on the island is suddenly going to disappear because of a blip in the space-time continuum.

You could say that Desmond keeps changing the future and therefore is not really changing anything, just making the path.

Maybe Desmond keeps getting flashes of Charlie's death because Desmond, by saving Charlie each time, is course-correcting the bad timeline. Maybe Charlie has some important task to accomplish that saves the world. Desmond wants desperately to change his own path so he can be with Penny, but he doesn't know if it's possible because of Mrs. Hawkings and her universe course-correcting comment. So Desmond keeps saving Charlie because Desmond wants to believe the path can be changed. If Desmond was convinced it didn't matter, and that Charlie would die anyway, why would he keep saving him?

Yes, it's possible that Desmond did change the future by saving Charlie but it's impossible that by saving Charlie he stopped Penny coming to the island. He thought it was Penny, he was wrong. The photo was probably brought to the island as proof etc.

However, Desmond didn't really change anything. He saw a chain of events and prevented Charlie's death. No one knows what happened after that so in theory he changed nothing. No one on the island is suddenly going to disappear because of a blip in the space-time continuum.

You could say that Desmond keeps changing the future and therefore is not really changing anything, just making the path.That reflects my view. Anything you do has an effect on the possible future, that is not the same as changing time Even if you have anticipated the future in your premonitions.

Maybe Desmond keeps getting flashes of Charlie's death because Desmond, by saving Charlie each time, is course-correcting the bad timeline. Maybe Charlie has some important task to accomplish that saves the world. Desmond wants desperately to change his own path so he can be with Penny, but he doesn't know if it's possible because of Mrs. Hawkings and her universe course-correcting comment. So Desmond keeps saving Charlie because Desmond wants to believe the path can be changed. If Desmond was convinced it didn't matter, and that Charlie would die anyway, why would he keep saving him?Great one! I like seeing it as, Desmond is not really attempting to alter the normal course of events he is actually course correcting to maintain the time line as it should be. Does that mean something about the island is attempting to shift the course of events away from what it should be?

That reflects my view. Anything you do has an effect on the possible future, that is not the same as changing time Even if you have anticipated the future in your premonitions.

Great one! I like seeing it as, Desmond is not really attempting to alter the normal course of events he is actually course correcting to maintain the time line as it should be. Does that mean something about the island is attempting to shift the course of events away from what it should be?

Oh, that's another good way to look at it. Desmond has been enlisted as a course-corrector, and he is getting "flash-forwards" of Charlie's death for a reason. I think Charlie has escaped death more times than anyone else on the island. Even back in the pilot episode he narrowly escapes things falling on him.

How does such a view of Desmond's function square with what happened in FBYE. Tptb say that he wasn't dreaming or having a vision but he did travel back to those few days of his past and change a couple of things: he bought the ring and then threw it in the Thames rather than it remaining in the shop; he caused there to be two copies of the DesPenny photo instead of one; and he took the blow with the cricket bat that originally hit the bartender.

Cardie

How can he "change" the future, anyway. According to Dictionary.com:
fu·ture /ˈfyuhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngtʃər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fyoo-cher] –noun 1.time that is to be or come hereafter. 2.something that will exist or happen in time to come: The future is rooted in the past. 3.a condition, esp. of success or failure, to come: Some people believe a gypsy can tell you your future. 4.Grammar. a.the future tense. b.another future formation or construction. c.a form in the future, as He will come. 5.Usually, futures. speculative purchases or sales of commodities for future receipt or delivery. –adjective 6.that is to be or come hereafter: future events; on some future day. 7.pertaining to or connected with time to come: one's future prospects; future plans. 8.Grammar. noting or pertaining to a tense or other verb formation or construction that refers to events or states in time to come.


The future is what is made of it by the events that precede it. What if Desmond is being influenced somehow into believing that he can alter the future, so that he CAN alter the future, ie by the others?:confused:

How does such a view of Desmond's function square with what happened in FBYE. Tptb say that he wasn't dreaming or having a vision but he did travel back to those few days of his past and change a couple of things: he bought the ring and then threw it in the Thames rather than it remaining in the shop; he caused there to be two copies of the DesPenny photo instead of one; and he took the blow with the cricket bat that originally hit the bartender.

Cardie

To be honest, Cardie, i don't trust TPTB and don't really take notice of their claims, haven't listened to a Podcast in ages.

If Desmond did travel back in time and alter a few things then from that moment on his life is different. Would he really end up on the island with everyone talking to him as if nothing had happened ? His outlook on life could have been different - not as melancholic, not so obsessed with the button etc. The view that you could go back in time, change something in your life and return to the same point in time with no differences is just naive in my opinion...or our we led to believe that life on the island would always be the same and that only life in the real world had been altered ?

By introducing time travel ( if indeed they have ) TPTB have opened up a real can of worms. Very few tv programs or films have handled time travel with the respect it deserves. It's merely an amusing plot device, used to throw in a few " Oooooh !! " 's.

" Deja Vu " a prime example.

How does such a view of Desmond's function square with what happened in FBYE. Tptb say that he wasn't dreaming or having a vision but he did travel back to those few days of his past and change a couple of things: he bought the ring and then threw it in the Thames rather than it remaining in the shop; he caused there to be two copies of the DesPenny photo instead of one; and he took the blow with the cricket bat that originally hit the bartender.

Cardie
Desmond’s visions started after the FBYE time foofaraw er I mean time foray so maybe that was a necessary precursor to his starting the job as a time line corrections agent? It means he is no longer just a button pusher he was promoted to a higher calling (i.e. one with an above ground job location).

If Desmond did travel back in time, then Lindelof flat-out lied to us that "there is no time travel" and I think there will be a lot of disappointed fans, me included. He does mention something in a podcast about Desmond actually having that experience and changing events, which suggests the initial statement about time travel was false. And it's REALLY bothering me. Precognition and time travel are two quite different monsters. As is stated above, you cant change the future as it hasn't happened yet. You can choose to alter possible futures, the end. YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE PAST. It's not even possible in the realm of pseudo-science.

i never heard him say there was no time travel, so this comes as a shock for me. how is it possible with all this Desmond stuff that there is no time travel?! BLEH SO CONFUSING. EVEN MORE QUESTIONS!

i never heard him say there was no time travel, so this comes as a shock for me. how is it possible with all this Desmond stuff that there is no time travel?! BLEH SO CONFUSING. EVEN MORE QUESTIONS!

I think the key here is the philosophy of David Hume, and his philosophy of cause and effect in particular. This episode was frought with paradox. Catch-22 is a paradox. Schrodinger's cat is a paradox. Likewise, David Hume's philosophy exposes a cause and effect paradox. I don't think the problem here is one of science, but of philosophy. I don't believe that Desmond traveled back in time at all. I believe that it was confirmed in a podcast that he didn't time travel, but that he really experienced what we saw him experience. In other words, it's not a physics problem, but a philosophical one.

It goes to the heart of what we believe about reality. Hume would be the first to point out that you can't derive ought from is. According to his philosophy, there is no such thing as causation. What we perceive as causation is merely what we infer from the world around us. It isn't really logical. It is only a belief, or more specifically, an assumption based on our experience of the uniformity of nature. We assume that nature is predictable. For example, we believe that the sun will rise tomorrow because it did today and all the days before, but we have no logical reason to believe it. Just because two things have happened temporally, it doesn't mean that one caused the other. The sun coming up today does not cause the sun to come up tomorrow. Thus, the fact that Desmond was able to intervene in a sequence of events, does that mean that he caused the change from his vision (the expected outcome?) Did he cause it to happen another way? It seems counter-intuitive, but it is hard to argue that the sun will come up tomorrow because it came up today when you look at it in those terms.

Here's a helpful example of Hume's philosophy (http://www-philosophy.ucdavis.edu/mattey/phi023/HUMELEC.HTM).

Upon what are our beliefs about causal connections based? Two possibilities have generally been acknowledged: reason and experience. Some philosophers have claimed that we have some kind of rational insight into necessary connections between events, but Hume countered this claim by stating that the opposite of any outcome is possible. Suppose I believe that the moving cue ball will cause the eight-ball to move upon impact. Still, I can conceive that the motion of the cue ball stops and the eight-ball does not move in the slightest. My conception does not depend on their being anything unusual about the situation. Both balls are made of wood, the table surface is felt overlaying slate, the gravitational situation is that of the planet earth. Everything might be equal, but the outcome is different. [Emphasis added by me.]

I think what this comes down to is the difference between possible in terms of theoretical possibilities and practical possibilities. Some of us are just more hung up on the practical than others. I don't believe this episode was about who caused what or when they caused it. (No time changing, no time travel.) It was about what Desmond believed, and how his reaction based on that belief informs the audience about his character. :shrug: