I think Ive stumbled across something fantastic. This episode is the clearest proof yet that Desmond is stuck in some kind of time loop. THAT is the "Catch-22" the episode is named after. Consider the following:

Desmond has a vision that he and the guys hike to the communication cable, which leads to a series of events including a helicopter crash, Penelope and Charlie's death. In the vision (not in "reality"), there is no impetus for the hike. If there was an impetus, then in reality Desmond wouldnt have had to convince Jin, Charlie and Hurley to come along in the first place. The impetus for the hike in the vision MUST BE THE VISION ITSELF.

If youre confused, then ask yourself this simple question: In the VISION, what was their reason for hiking in the forest?

Desmond is stuck in a loop, a never ending catch-22. Think carefully about this sequence of events and you'll understand what I mean. Thats why the episode is called Catch-22. Thoughts?

I agree. Des is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.

Des sees his visions, and up until the latest one, he continually saves Charlie's life,...but after this last vision, Des decides to let Charlie die,...then at the last moment, he changes his mind, and saves Charlie.

I think if Des lets Charlie die, a decision will be made by the island, or Smokie (Cerebus), to extract justice from Desmond, and kill him. I have a theory that Smokie is the punishment for those who have killed. Smokie will attempt to take each murderer out, one at a time,..but that's another theory.

I agree that Des is stuck in this loop, but he does change the outcome, and effect of his visions,..some of those have long-reaching consequences. Of course,...as Mrs. Hawkings said, paraphrasing here,..."The universe has a way of course-correcting."

I understand, it is like which came first, the chicken or the egg. For them to be walking through the forest, Desmond had to have had the vision first which was of them walking through the forest because he was following a vision of them walking through the forest etc. and so on

I understand, it is like which came first, the chicken or the egg. For them to be walking through the forest, Desmond had to have had the vision first which was of them walking through the forest because he was following a vision of them walking through the forest etc. and so on

Exactly. In the vision, what was their reason for hiking in the forest?

Anyone remember the Star Trek TNG episode where they are caught in a time loop? they thought they were having "deja vu" but where actually a result of events that actually had happened from going round and round the loop, the events actually would change slightly after each loop b/c they remembered bits and pieces. Could this be happening to Des?

Anyone remember the Star Trek TNG episode where they are caught in a time loop? they thought they were having "deja vu" but where actually a result of events that actually had happened from going round and round the loop, the events actually would change slightly after each loop b/c they remembered bits and pieces. Could this be happening to Des?

I vaguely remember that episode - I don't remember the details, but yes, they would be able to remember snippets, like dejavu, and eventually were able to piece together what was going on and get out of the time loop.

I have no clue about what is going on with Desmond though - it is all so mind-bending and I'm having a tough time figuring it all out. It sure is a great ride though!! This show has so many rich, wonderful layers which makes it so fulfilling to watch.

First, a few definitions:

Catch-22: A situation or predicament from which it is impossible to extricate yourself because of built-in illogical rules and regulations.

Catch-22 is a term, coined by Joseph Heller in his novel Catch-22, describing a general situation in which an individual has to accomplish two actions, both of which are dependent on the completion of the other[1]. A familiar example of this circumstance occurs in the context of job searching. In moving from school to a career, one may encounter a Catch-22 where one cannot get a job without work experience, but one cannot gain experience without a job. Catch-22 situations are also sometimes called the chicken or the egg problems.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have a feeling that we might find multiple Catch-22's in this episode. Desmond has to gather this group to go on this journey to find the parachutist and save her, knowing Charlie will die in the process. But if he saves Charlie, the parachutist could possibly die. Or if they don't go as fated, the event may never happen, in turn risking a chance at being rescued, and possibly seeing Penny.

In the past, the ep title usually references something both on island and in the flashbacks. So there is probably a Catch-22 in the flashback too.

Good point about the trek. Normally, he would have waited for events to unfold naturally but in this case because he thought Penny was involved, maybe he pushed the events to get things going and make it happen. Either way, it was his own actions that brought the thing about, and I think Charlie's survival had to be part of that plan.

Anyone remember the Star Trek TNG episode where they are caught in a time loop? they thought they were having "deja vu" but where actually a result of events that actually had happened from going round and round the loop, the events actually would change slightly after each loop b/c they remembered bits and pieces. Could this be happening to Des?

I remember that one. Every loop ended with them making a mistake and blowing up the Enterprise. Everytime they blew up, they started over again. Eventually they used Data to send a message back through the next loop (the number three) to tell him what choice to make so they wouldn't blow up. By avoiding the catastrophe, they broke the loop.

I think this is a really good idea and might explain a whole heck of a lot!!!

I wondered that too while we were watching tonight... In Par Avion, say, Desmond let the events play out and only intervened at the last possible moment - by running & jumping in the water to save Claire..

I can't help but think he's adversely affecting the outcome, because he removed a key ingredient of life: Free Will.

He removed choice from Charlie, Hurley and Jin and instead made them recreate this vision. A self-fullfilling prophecy. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

He removed choice from Charlie, Hurley and Jin and instead made them recreate this vision. A self-fullfilling prophecy. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Youre assuming that "in reality" Desmond took matters into his own hand by removing their choice. Maybe "removing their choice" is exactly how it went down in the vision as well - in which case everything happened in reality just as if it happened in the vision - up until the point where he saved Charlies life. Hence the loop.

Youre assuming that "in reality" Desmond took matters into his own hand by removing their choice. Maybe "removing their choice" is exactly how it went down in the vision as well - in which case everything happened in reality just as if it happened in the vision - up until the point where he saved Charlies life. Hence the loop.I understand the time loop premise and that Des created this reality based strictly upon a vision - so that the reality was re-enacting the vision..

I was just thinking out loud that maybe these events could have occurred naturally... Had he waited just a couple of minutes, maybe Hurley would have started a conversation about camping.. which got the ball rolling towards the trek.

Des forced the issue and re-enacted the vision as if piecing together a puzzle. Rather than letting the events occur organically. So I wondered what the consequences will be, now that he has removed their free will from this event.

I just watched the intro again and I see the paradox now. Charlie is in the death flash but also in the post death flash alive and saving the parachutist. They can't both be the same reality. So the only way Desmond gets to the parachutist is by saving Charlie. It was more of a warning of something he had to do if he wanted the events to unfold as he saw them. He thought he had to let it happen, but he really is supposed to change it.

I totally agree ame....and from a purely philosophical angle.....how often do we force events in our own lives(break through closed doors) to make happen what we think/desire/hope/long for to happen......however in this context Desmond had his vision....he had his understanding of true faith (God tests us like he did Abraham)...his experience with his "time travel" back to Penny (the longing and the hope and desire).......and his underlying humanity that forced him regardless of what he thought, desired, believed or wanted (Penny) to save Charlies life....in it all ultimately he sacrificed what he thought he most wanted for what he knew to be right and good in his own soul.....what does this now mean for Desmond?...what does this now mean for Charlie?....what does this now mean for Penny?....and overall what does this now mean for the losties?

and his underlying humanity that forced him regardless of what he thought, desired, believed or wanted (Penny) to save Charlies life....in it all ultimately he sacrificed what he thought he most wanted for what he knew to be right and good in his own soul.....what does this now mean for Desmond?...what does this now mean for Charlie?....what does this now mean for Penny?....and overall what does this now mean for the losties?Exactly.. He put his longing for Pen before all else and forced a reality.. Plus, he cut this one a bit close to the bone for my liking.. Charlie was every right to be ticked off. Big consequences to come, I'm sure.

Anyone remember the Star Trek TNG episode where they are caught in a time loop? they thought they were having "deja vu" but where actually a result of events that actually had happened from going round and round the loop, the events actually would change slightly after each loop b/c they remembered bits and pieces. Could this be happening to Des?

Great catch Dophincrc! That's my top five Star Trek TNG episode ever, and it seems to fit the Desmond's time loop theory.

pace - I too think he is supposed to change the outcome....and yes ame he left his innermost compelling human response to the last minute....how acutely does this reflect real life....I hope it means that because he sacrificed his innnermost desires, Charlie will in actual fact live and he will be reunited with Penny .....but I am an idealist through and through....pragmatists blow me away with your realism

I just watched the intro again and I see the paradox now. Charlie is in the death flash but also in the post death flash alive and saving the parachutist. They can't both be the same reality. So the only way Desmond gets to the parachutist is by saving Charlie. It was more of a warning of something he had to do if he wanted the events to unfold as he saw them. He thought he had to let it happen, but he really is supposed to change it.

That's it! Correct me if I am wrong on this.

The Catch-22 is not for Desmond - it's for Charlie.
Charlie had reservations about going on the trek. As did Hurley.

It was Charlie that the Catch-22 was intended for. He must have been
thinking that if he did not go camping that he would die somehow
and if he did go camping that he would die on the trek.

But, Charlie knows that Desmond has always saved him. So maybe
Charlie is thinking that it is better to go along with Desmond and risk
being saved by Desmond. I know it sounds kinda circular in thinking but
that's why they put the "22" in the "Catch-22".

Desmond saw Charile die and not die. Desmond saw that the only
way he was going to get to Penny is by saving Charlie. The conversation
about Superman and The Flash sparked Desmond's memory that
something was about to happen.

Check out Catch-22 at Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch_22

I think Ive stumbled across something fantastic. This episode is the clearest proof yet that Desmond is stuck in some kind of time loop. THAT is the "Catch-22" the episode is named after. Consider the following:

Desmond has a vision that he and the guys hike to the communication cable, which leads to a series of events including a helicopter crash, Penelope and Charlie's death. In the vision (not in "reality"), there is no impetus for the hike. If there was an impetus, then in reality Desmond wouldnt have had to convince Jin, Charlie and Hurley to come along in the first place. The impetus for the hike in the vision MUST BE THE VISION ITSELF.

If youre confused, then ask yourself this simple question: In the VISION, what was their reason for hiking in the forest?

Desmond is stuck in a loop, a never ending catch-22. It hurts my mind to think about this, but I know theres something to this. Think carefully about this sequence of events and you'll understand what I mean. Thats why the episode is called Catch-22. Is this clear? Thoughts?


I was thinking about the whole catch-22 thing while watching the episode tonight, and it occurred to me that Desmond is actually the cause of Charlie needing to be saved. Tonight, as you pointed out, there was no actual reason for anyone except Desmond to go on this hike. So if Desmond had simply set out alone to find the parachutist, Charlie wouldn't have been in any danger of getting killed by Danielle's arrow trap. But since Desmond saw Charlie get killed that way in his "vision", he felt the need to force it to play out.

In Par Avion, Desmond does the same thing. He climbs out on the rocks to get the bird for Claire because if he didn't, then he believed Charlie would have (and gotten killed doing it). But, if Desmond had never scared the birds away with his gun shot, no one would have even needed to go out on the dangerous rocks to get a bird for Claire.

That episode with the lightning rod might fit into this pattern as well. Desmond had a vision of lightning striking Claire's tent and killing Charlie. So he put up a lightning rod, which then attracted the lighting. If he hadn't built that rod, maybe lighting wouldn't have struck anywhere near them.

I think the future events Desmond sees only actually happen because he has the visions. He sees something and then acts in such a way as to make it come true. The only difference is that he "saves" Charlie every time. But isn't that really like pushing a non-swimmer into the water and then pulling them back out again and saying you saved them?

Desmond is stuck in a loop, a never ending catch-22. It hurts my mind to think about this, but I know theres something to this. Think carefully about this sequence of events and you'll understand what I mean. Thats why the episode is called Catch-22. Is this clear? Thoughts?

It's called a "causal loop." A staple of sci-fi.

The Terminator movies relied on this explanation. When the "cyborg arm" was found by Cyberdine Systems, this "future" technology led them to create SkyNet, which led to SkyNet building the Terminator and sending him back into the past to kill Sarah Conner, which led to her crushing the Terminator (except for the arm), which led to Cyberdine Systems finding the "cyborg arm"...

So... where did the FIRST "cyborg arm" come from? It's C causes A causes B causes C. Rather than A causes B causes C causes D.

And I agree. I think the events in this episode definitely give much further weight to all the time loop theories out there. Including mine!
100%
He removed choice from Charlie, Hurley and Jin and instead made them recreate this vision. A self-fullfilling prophecy. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

It's that, and more. What the original poster was alluding to is that it was Desmond's PREMONITION which caused Desmond to enlist the help of his friends to go on the trek to find the parachutist. He saw himself and the gang in the future trekking through the jungle. But why were they trekking through the jungle in his PREMONITION? Because... he had a PREMONITION that they must trek through the jungle. Loop-dee-loop.

In other words, if Desmond had had a premonition that he and the gang were trekking through the jungle and then, say... Hurley came up to him and said, "Dude, you want to go camping tonight with me, Charlie and Jin?" Then we would have understood that this is what caused Desmond's premonition. But that didn't happen. Desmond's premonition caused Desmond to cause everyone to trek through the jungle. It's a causal loop -- because there is no explanation (no cause) for the ORIGINAL vision that Desmond had of all of them trekking through the jungle.
100%
I just watched the intro again and I see the paradox now. Charlie is in the death flash but also in the post death flash alive and saving the parachutist. They can't both be the same reality. So the only way Desmond gets to the parachutist is by saving Charlie. It was more of a warning of something he had to do if he wanted the events to unfold as he saw them. He thought he had to let it happen, but he really is supposed to change it.

Exactly. It was the test of Abraham. Desmond had to be willing to sacrifice Charlie, to take him along, even though he believed that Charlie must die in order for the parachutist to be found. At the last moment (deus ex machina), fate and/or God stepped in and revealed to Desmond that it was only by SAVING Charlie that the parachutist would be found. I think. :undecide:

This was a really fun episode!
100%
I was thinking about the whole catch-22 thing while watching the episode tonight, and it occurred to me that Desmond is actually the cause of Charlie needing to be saved. Tonight, as you pointed out, there was no actual reason for anyone except Desmond to go on this hike. So if Desmond had simply set out alone to find the parachutist, Charlie wouldn't have been in any danger of getting killed by Danielle's arrow trap. But since Desmond saw Charlie get killed that way in his "vision", he felt the need to force it to play out.

This is the best explanation of it I've read so far. You've got a way with words, allergygal.

/
It's that, and more. What the original poster was alluding to is that it was Desmond's PREMONITION which caused Desmond to enlist the help of his friends to go on the trek to find the parachutist. He saw himself and the gang in the future trekking through the jungle. But why were they trekking through the jungle in his PREMONITION? Because... he had a PREMONITION that they must trek through the jungle. Loop-dee-loop.
I understand what it is, and the loop premise.. Really, I do. My discussion dealt with removing the free will portion. Thanks . :)

I think the paradox, and therefore my confusion, goes even deeper:

It's clear from the conflicting flashes of Charlie both dead and alive that Charlie was meant to survive somehow, either by Desmond's hand or divine intervention. But I also think each time Desmond steps in and does the task, the loop begins again and Desmond has another flash of another Charlie death. I think this cycle will continue until Desmond has the faith to stand back, NOT try to change things and see Charlie survive miraculously (or not, depending on Charlie's path). Then the visions will stop.

It's like what the ring lady told him to do, to stop mucking about with the universe and get on with the real job of following your own path. Desmond is using Charlie like he did the monastary, the army, the boat race and the hatch button. They are seemingly heroic tasks that are really escapes from his own life. It may be Charlie's path to die like the man in the red shoes, or it may not be. I don't think Charlie is supposed to die, so if Desmond stopped, he would be spared, but for Desmond to do that it would take a tremendous leap of faith.

And that's what it's all about.

It will be very interesting if Desmond does finally decide to not save Charlie and what the consequences of that will be. It is a bit like a test, but maybe Desmond is not sure what the right thing to do is. No one wants to let a friend die if it can be prevented. Desmond is obviously distressed by not being able to get out of this loop.

I wondered if in saving Charlie this time, it changed who the parachutist is - or was it always not Penny? The parachutist may have been sent by Penny.

I think Desmond forced the events to happen because of his wish to see Penny and find rescue. If Penny wasn't in the equation, I think he would've let things play out naturally (and still save Charlie). The reason for the jungle trek was to find the parachutist - which Des only knew about from his vision.

So did Des persuade Claire to go for a swim somehow?

What I find most interesting is that the main character in Catch-22 discovers that Catch-22 does not really exist, but TPTB claim it does exist. The fact that it does not exist means it cannot be repealed or overturned, but it is still used. That I think is the real tie in here, it does not exist, but is used anyway and nothing can be done about it because it does not exist.

It's kinda like trying to think about nothing. When you try to think nothing you are thinking something, therefore it isn't nothing anymore. Crazy talk huh?

Exactly. In the vision, what was their reason for hiking in the forest?

I like your theory, but it's really not a loop. If it were a loop, Des wouldn't be able to break it. What if he decided to just lay on the beach and not saying anything to Hurley or anyone?

If the vision still would have happened, then there would have had to be an impetus besides the vision. And if the vision wouldn't have happened, then there's no loop. Or if the vision would have happened without Desmond, then there's still an impetus besides the vision.

I think this "loop" theory is a bunch of buffalo bagels. I say Des just has what amounts to ESP. And he's trying to make things happen that he wants to happen.

I don't think Charlie is supposed to die, so if Desmond stopped, he would be spared, but for Desmond to do that it would take a tremendous leap of faith.

And that's what it's all about.

I think you've got it. Abraham was supposed to sacrifice Issac, but in the end Isaac was spared by God. So maybe Des is supposed to step back as you say and have faith that Charlie won't die, or will if that is supposed to happen. But the thing is that Des has to let things happen as they're supposed to and stop trying to make them happen as he thinks they should. A huge test of faith.

I know this is off topic and I apologize but atleast it is a thread about Desmond and time. I just want to know if anyone recalls Jack recognizing Desmond from the bleachers? If so, what was his reaction. On that note did Desmond recognize Jack?

Lots of posters claim that time travel scenarios hurt their brains, and they have difficulty with them. I do not. I am a self-proclaimed time travel expert. The scenario that played out in Catch-22 is what I call a "Spontaneous Happenstance". That is, an event that is inspired by the event itself. The most common example of this involves an individual acting on information dependant on his actions.
Desmond recieved a vision of a sequence of events. These events involved Charlie, Jin, Hurley, and himself going on a hike. Why Hurley and Charlie? Because Hurley and Charlie are Desmond's confidants, regarding his flashes. Why Jin? Jin is invited to accompany the trek only because he was in the vision. He was in the vision only because he was invited. The vision informed Desmond of details of an event that had yet to occur. Decisions had to be made concerning the event, the outcome of said decisions being revealed in the vision. Therefore Jin being in the vision was the result of him being asked to join the trek. Him being asked to join the trek was a result of him being in the vision. This is an example of a Catch-22, or a Spontaneous Happenstance.
If Desmond was a bit more savy, he would have told Hurley about the trek, leaving out the participants, and allowed Hurley to choose who should go. If he understood the nature of time, he would have been confidante that Hurley would choose Jin because Jin was with them in the vision. In this case Jin would be with them as a result of Hurley (who had no knowledge of the future) making the decision to invite him. There would then have been no Catch -22.

This same logic can be applied to any of the other vision related Catch-22s in the epi.

However, it should be noted that the simple act of saving Charlie, in of itself, had no effect on the identity of the parachutist. The vision did not reveal the identity of the parachuteist, merely the book, and the picture. Desmond assumed that it was Penny. He was wrong. Had he let Charlie get his neck pierced, the parachuteist would still not have been Penny. As far as the identity of the parachuteist is concerned, Charlie's fate was of no consequence.

I know this is off topic and I apologize but atleast it is a thread about Desmond and time. I just want to know if anyone recalls Jack recognizing Desmond from the bleachers? If so, what was his reaction. On that note did Desmond recognize Jack?

Jack took one look at Des with a gun at Locke's head and said "You." And Desmond asked later, "Do I know you?" but couldn't remember from where. Jack then tried to play it cool like he wasn't freaked out. Later, when Desmond ran to escape the button he finally remembered where he knew Jack from and he mentioned the stadium and asked about Sarah. Jack put on his mancry about marrying her probably because he was still so freaked and confused by something that shouldn't be possible. Desmond seemed a bit more nonplussed but he was also surprised at the coincidence.

The reference in Catch 22 to taping ankles was a nod between them to their past meeting.

Great thread!!!
I wondered if in saving Charlie this time, it changed who the parachutist is - or was it always not Penny?
I asked that question in this thread I started last night (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=76713), although now people have pretty much talked me out of the idea. :)

If the vision still would have happened, then there would have had to be an impetus besides the vision. And if the vision wouldn't have happened, then there's no loop. Or if the vision would have happened without Desmond, then there's still an impetus besides the vision.
One possible impetus seems to be the parachutist, who is outside of Desmond's realm of influence. She was coming to the island, flashes or not.

If Desmond was a bit more savy, he would have told Hurley about the trek, leaving out the participants, and allowed Hurley to choose who should go. If he understood the nature of time, he would have been confidante that Hurley would choose Jin because Jin was with them in the vision. In this case Jin would be with them as a result of Hurley (who had no knowledge of the future) making the decision to invite him. There would then have been no Catch -22.

This same logic can be applied to any of the other vision related Catch-22s in the epi.
Thanks imfromthepast! It's nice to have someone who understands this stuff be willing to explain it to the rest of us brain-exploder types. Can you explain why there would have been no Catch-22 if Desmond had allowed Hurley to do the choosing and inviting? To me, it seems like it would have the exact same result. Because of the spontaneous happenstance, the events were predetermined. Which means, Desmond can't break them. Right?

Pace, I think your theory about this being another of Desmond's ploys to run away from his destiny in life is spot on. The visions remove him from having to make decisions about his own life and leave him watching out for Charlie 24/7. It's like staying comfortably drunk, but without the alcohol.

Although it is less generous to Desmond, and he doesn't seem to consciously know it has motivated him, I wonder if Desmond remembering the Charlie parachute scene hadn't occurred at the moment Charlie was in the arrow's path told him that there was no way all parts of the vision were going to come true, and he might as well save Charlie. IT was like he had a split second glance at the picture on the box.

He could have thought that they first found the parachute, went to look for the parachutist, and Charlie died on the way there.

And there's really no paradox about the vision causing the events it gives him to happen. All the visions do are give flashes of future events that Des will witness. That having the premonitions may cause the events they reveal doesn't invalidate them as accurate pictures of one potential timeline. The don't purport to be cause by anything in particular, so being caused by themselves is well within the rules.

Cardie

So if Desmond had simply set out alone to find the parachutist, Charlie wouldn't have been in any danger of getting killed by Danielle's arrow trap. But since Desmond saw Charlie get killed that way in his "vision", he felt the need to force it to play out.


Ahhhhh, except everyone there had their role to play! Des needed Hurley to find the cable, Jin to see the survivor's beacon, and Charlie to ummm take an arrow in the throat. Of all those, Charlie's role is the one I have the most trouble seeing a concrete practical purpose for being there. But I do understand Desmond's reasoning, just my point is that Jin and Hurley's role was actually essential in finding the survivor.

It's called a "causal loop." A staple of sci-fi.

The Terminator movies relied on this explanation. When the "cyborg arm" was found by Cyberdine Systems, this "future" technology led them to create SkyNet, which led to SkyNet building the Terminator and sending him back into the past to kill Sarah Conner, which led to her crushing the Terminator (except for the arm), which led to Cyberdine Systems finding the "cyborg arm"...

So... where did the FIRST "cyborg arm" come from? It's C causes A causes B causes C. Rather than A causes B causes C causes D.


The way they broke out of this loop in the Terminator movies was to destroy the arm, thus forcing the abandonment of the project. Then there would be nothing sent back in time because there would be no cyborg to be sent back.

So, to parallel this with Lost, Desmond turned the fail-safe key and was supposedly sent back in time, where he was guided in a certain direction that would lead him to the island to turn the fail-safe key.

Now there are three possibilities.

1) Desmond will die and break out of the loop that way (and who knows what would happen if the fail-safe is not activated).

2) Desmond will not be gone long enough to not press the button. The fail-safe will not need to be turned and no one will go back in time. The plane will still crash for the same reason the helicopter crashed when it got too close to the island's realm of influence - perhaps this is why the Others regularly need a sub to get to the island as the last leg would still be a rough ride (but a sub can handle it whereas air traffic cannot), but there may not be a rescue if there is no magnetic anomaly.

3) Something or someone (perhaps Desmond in another iteration of the loop) will travel back to the past and will prevent the Indicent from happening in the first place, thereby forgoing the need to press the button at all because there would be no button, and therefore no more time loop. This is the most intriguing option for me, and I think it parallels the Terminator plot best. This also has the biggest implication for the losties, because Desmond would complete his sailboat race (if he even went on one at all), and the plane may not have crashed. Perhaps this is how Lost will end. Interesting theory, at least.

It may be true that we are past the point in the timeline where Desmond was sent back, but didn't Sarah Connor have a vision that the cyborgs took over the world? That was past the point of the time travel as well, but since they broke out of the loop, it never really happened. Are we going to find out that that plane never crashed? Will we all forget there was a TV show called "Lost"?

I was thinking about the whole catch-22 thing while watching the episode tonight, and it occurred to me that Desmond is actually the cause of Charlie needing to be saved. Tonight, as you pointed out, there was no actual reason for anyone except Desmond to go on this hike. So if Desmond had simply set out alone to find the parachutist, Charlie wouldn't have been in any danger of getting killed by Danielle's arrow trap. ?


I think there's a fallacy in thinking he could have marched into the jungle alone.....if Desmond tried to completely alter his vision in any form except the very last minute, an entire different reality may have occured....Charlie might have died a different death when Desmond was out searching for the parachutist....this test was whether he had faith that if he followed his vision he would be "rewarded"...in this case at least by saving the parachutist's and charlie's lives.

Desmond's gift from the island is ringer....on the one hand he can see the future..on the other, he's faced with the moral choice to save Charlie and change the future he sees...I'm going to assume that this gift will lead him to being rescued by Penelope, liberated from the island and thus free from the curse of being a visionary.

Also...on a side note...I found the most intriguing insight into this episode at the point when Charlie said they should wait for morning and Desmond wanted to force the group to press on...from his perspective it took extreme patience (the amount worthy of a vow of silence) to allow the events to unfold as they were supposed to instead of foraging on by his lonesome.....he must not intervene into events he cannot change......while maintaining the courage to change the things he can (saving Charlie)....now hopefully he'll gain the insight to knowing the difference...

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and (the) wisdom to know the difference.


my thoughts for a penny
jobe?

The way they broke out of this loop in the Terminator movies was to destroy the arm, thus forcing the abandonment of the project. Then there would be nothing sent back in time because there would be no cyborg to be sent back.

So, to parallel this with Lost, ...

Are we going to find out that that plane never crashed? ...

I think so. And what a perfect ending for Lost!

On the island:
He thought he was brave by saving Charlie, but letting him die was the brave thing. (Maybe Charlie is destined to die and whatever is showing Desmond the death to test him.)

.


Interesting perspective although was not the truly brave action following through with his vision....taking a risk even after knowing the stakes....as Abraham chose to trust God even after being called on to kill his only son......it was this action..this utter and complete devotion to his concept of God...or to his vision...that lead his seed to become the great nation of Israel...and eventually to the birth of Jesus...the one man who would save all of mankind (in the story at least...whether or not you believe is another story alltogether).....

Ahhhhh, except everyone there had their role to play! Des needed Hurley to find the cable, Jin to see the survivor's beacon, and Charlie to ummm take an arrow in the throat. Of all those, Charlie's role is the one I have the most trouble seeing a concrete practical purpose for being there. But I do understand Desmond's reasoning, just my point is that Jin and Hurley's role was actually essential in finding the survivor.

I don't think any of them served a purpose for being there other than the fact that they were there, for reasons Desmond didn't understand. Therefore to change the cast of characters might have changed the outcome and Desmond didn't want that. Hurley could have told Desmond where the cable was and he could have gone alone. If Jin hadn't seen the beacon, Charlie might have, or someone else who was there. Charlie's purpose in dying was in fulfilling the promise of that future to ensure it would happen then way Des hoped it would. They were each important in that sense and in another sense, served no practical purpose, one no more so than the other.

You just revealed the Catch 22 to me. It's all in his mind.

Desmond is trying to be brave by doing something, but that really makes him a coward.

Desmond believes:
In order to do something with his life, he must be brave, but in order to be brave, he must do something.

In reality, he must do nothing:

In the flashback:
He thought he was brave running away, but staying was really the brave thing.

On the island:
He thought he was brave by saving Charlie, but letting him die was the brave thing. (Maybe Charlie is destined to die and whatever is showing Desmond the death to test him.)

In Flashes Before Your Eyes:
The jewelery lady told him the stakes to test him. He thought it was brave to get rid of Penny, but really it would have been brave to spit in the universe's face by staying with her. FBYEs wasn't time travel. It was a test.

You got it. Isn't that cool? Desmond's not a hero for saving Charlie, it may actually make him a coward. Charlie was right when he called him that, as were Ruth, Widmore, Penny and everyone else whose ever said so. Now I'm not saying that to bash Des, he's on a path and he can get himself out of it. He's not a cowardly person at heart, he just needs to stop what he's doing and have faith in destiny.

I wondered if in saving Charlie this time, it changed who the parachutist is - or was it always not Penny? The parachutist may have been sent by Penny..

Wow, my head hurts...See, I was sure that DESMOND was sure the parachutist would be Penny herself, hence his haste to get to the 'chutist's landing site. I presumed that by waiting until first light-- not his idea-- to go, he somehow altered the outcome, either by *who* the 'chutist was, or her survival outcome. He was in quite the hurry to get there, remember? And then, by not letting Charlie die, as in his vision, he also altered the outcome, either the *who* or the *what*.

I felt that the FB about Des's monastic quest was meant to illustrate even more of Desmond's continual struggle to do the right thing, and escape his "curse of cowardice." Hence, when he actually saved Charlie this time, he was taking what he knew was the correct moral path, even if it didn't serve him personally (no Penny, dressed in parachute silks.) I am struggling with whether or not Des was nearly ready to let Charlie die, this time. Heroically, he couldn't let it happen, and the curse lifts even more. And the conflict is brilliant.

I love complicated men!

Cheers--
hiccup

The end of this episode seems to come close to a Schrödinger's cat situation, which isn't the first time this has happened on the island.

Did the fact of changing the path of the vision change the reality of the result? or was it a flawed vision to begin with? or was the mere act of observing the vision enough to alter the outcome of the vision?

There was some discussion in another thread a few episodes back about nested boxes, where the cat was both alive, and dead, and unknown. It seems that this is where the show is heading (at least until they explain something to us.)

What if the vision was based on a vision that had altered its reality by seeing what happened? This can go pretty much as deep as you can manage to grasp. That's the propblem with time travel, as soon as you do it you're stuck with cascading problems of revision, alteration, and consequence.

My own little theory was that the parachutist was never meant to be penny, because it seems ludicrous that she would jump onto the island, when she can pay someone else to jump in with a sat phone. However, in Desmonds vision it is very likely that:

1. He believed it was penny because of the photograph (Maybe the pic is what they were going to use to prove they knew desmond)

or

2. The parachutist in the vision WAS penny, but that was only because the vision was flawed / irrepresentative of reality

or

3. The parachutist was penny until Desmond changed the events. In which case, should there not be a significant course correction coming up?

good episode, nice step toward the finale

Ahhhhh, except everyone there had their role to play! Des needed Hurley to find the cable, Jin to see the survivor's beacon, and Charlie to ummm take an arrow in the throat. Of all those, Charlie's role is the one I have the most trouble seeing a concrete practical purpose for being there. But I do understand Desmond's reasoning, just my point is that Jin and Hurley's role was actually essential in finding the survivor.

Correct me if Im wrong, but I think this is missing the point. The question shouldnt be "why did Desmond 'specifically' ask Charlie, Jin and Hurley to come along"? The question should be: "In the vision sequence, why did Desmond et al want go on the trek in the first place"? There are only two possible options:

1) Because in "the vision sequence", Desmond had a vision about the plane/penny which caused him to want to go on the trek ("the loop")

2) In "the vision sequence", there WAS a reason, but Desmond couldnt recall what it was when he had the vision. Since he couldnt remember, he decided to recruit the same exact people to go with him even though he didnt remember why they were headed there. In this scenario, Desmond changed the impetus for the trek. This theory leaves open the possibility that hes not stuck in a time loop, but he has some kind of ESP, etc.

This ep reminded me of the ep where Michael has to round up certain losties for the others. He was also in a catch 22, if he didn't get the exact losties they wanted he would no longer see walt. By rounding up the losties he was betraying them knowing they would be set up.

Ahhhhh, except everyone there had their role to play! Des needed Hurley to find the cable, Jin to see the survivor's beacon, and Charlie to ummm take an arrow in the throat. Actually didn't Jin first find the cable?

Hurley found the backpack. Well, sort of... Hurley got tired and sat down, which led Desmond to find the backpack...

I think there's a fallacy in thinking he could have marched into the jungle alone.....if Desmond tried to completely alter his vision in any form except the very last minute, an entire different reality may have occured....Charlie might have died a different death when Desmond was out searching for the parachutist....this test was whether he had faith that if he followed his vision he would be "rewarded"...in this case at least by saving the parachutist's and charlie's lives.

Desmond's gift from the island is ringer....on the one hand he can see the future..on the other, he's faced with the moral choice to save Charlie and change the future he sees...I'm going to assume that this gift will lead him to being rescued by Penelope, liberated from the island and thus free from the curse of being a visionary.

Also...on a side note...I found the most intriguing insight into this episode at the point when Charlie said they should wait for morning and Desmond wanted to force the group to press on...from his perspective it took extreme patience (the amount worthy of a vow of silence) to allow the events to unfold as they were supposed to instead of foraging on by his lonesome.....he must not intervene into events he cannot change......while maintaining the courage to change the things he can (saving Charlie)....now hopefully he'll gain the insight to knowing the difference...


For whatever reason, Charlie is included in Desmond's visions and dies in them. But without Desmond's interference, it seems that Charlie would not be in peril in the first place. So my guess is that in order to break the catch-22, Desmond has to ignore his visions of Charlie's deaths. I'd like to think that would take a leap of faith for Desmond, but given how agitated he seems to be about having to save him, it might just end up being selfishness when he finally decides to ignore the Charlie death vision.

Yes, Charlie might have died a different death at the beach if Desmond had set off without him. Or he might have been just fine when Desmond got back. We don't know. All we do know is that Desmond saw Charlie in his vision so he made him come along. From a practical standpoint, Charlie didn't seem to serve any purpose on the journey, though. Hurley had to find the cable and Jin had to notice the parachutist's beacon. But what did Charlie do?

I suppose Charlie's insistance that they wait until morning to trek into the jungle could be considered important since it was daylight in Desmond's vision when Charlie gets hit with the arrow and it was daylight when they find the parachuist. But if Desmond had been paying attention to his own vision, he would have realized they were supposed to wait until morning anyway (and he wouldn't have needed Charlie to make him wait). As it was, Desmond was anxious to get to who he thought was Penny, the second he saw that beacon. And in doing so, he would have contradicted his own vision.

The other important question (aside from whether or not Charlie needed to be there) was whether or not Desmond changing the events of the vision actually effected the outcome. In other words, was the parachutist meant to be Penny, but wasn't because he saved Charlie? I don't believe so. I just rewatched the episode and there was no indication that the parachutist was Penny in his vision--that's just a conclusion he jumped to. I also don't think it would be possible for the identity of a parachutist to have changed as a result of his actions because at the point that he saved Charlie, the parachutist was already on the island.

There's one more piece of intrigue of note... Desmond's vision showed 2 different scenarios concerning Charlie. In one, he gets shot in the neck with an arrow. In the other, he is alive and well when they reach the parachute. So that means Desmond was not shown a definitive fate-driven future, but rather a flexible future, with different possible outcomes. What I'd really like to know, though, is in Desmond's vision where Charlie is okay, did his guitar have an arrowhead stuck in it? I don't think we're shown that one way or another.

Interesting that Charlie's guitar took the arrow to the neck, isn't it? Maybe if the universe really is course correcting, Charlie didn't have to get shot in the neck as long as something had to get shot in the neck ;)

John Locke : "You're not crazy. Crazy people don't know they're going crazy, they think they're getting better"sic

I'm starting to think Des is a little from Column A and a little from Column B. But I guess looping through time could do that to a guy.

For whatever reason, Charlie is included in Desmond's visions and dies in them. But without Desmond's interference, it seems that Charlie would not be in peril in the first place. So my guess is that in order to break the catch-22, Desmond has to ignore his visions of Charlie's deaths. I'd like to think that would take a leap of faith for Desmond, but given how agitated he seems to be about having to save him, it might just end up being selfishness when he finally decides to ignore the Charlie death vision.
I agree. Desmond will need to make that leap of faith, "let" Charlie die, and then discover that Charlie will actually survive without him. I can see that.

But what would happen if Desmond is prevented somehow from rescuing Charlie - ie held captive or in some situation he can't escape. If he dosen't have faith, and "knows" Charlie will die without him.... will Charlie still live? Is Desmond's faith in the universe/island the key to Charlie's life?

Im a Time travel buff too

But the catch 22 had nothing to do with who to choose to go with him on the hike. It had nothing to do with a timeloop

When you are watching any story you must consider the *Theme. The Theme is always explained at the beginning of the story

What was the Theme?

A Test

Desmond constantly fails tests because of fear(coward)

The show starts with him passing a test of silence

It then mentions Abrahams test--which was a Catch22. God promised Abraham if he was loyal his sons descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the sky. Then God asks him to sacrifice him. Catch22--How can Abraham obey God and still have Isaccs descendants survive. Both choices result in disqualification

Abrahams solution..trust God by obeying him.

This is in direct realtion to Charlie saying--"you were going to sacrfice me to get your girl back". Des says he was suppose to let Charlie die and maybe its a test and I failed. Des thinks save charlie--Penny dies. Let charlie die save penny--Catch22

Its as simple as that..its not a mystery

The problem is the story isnt that well written. "Flashes" was brilliant but this was really all over the place and not executed that well. Still best thing on TV though

What we are yet to find out is what, if anything, changed. Did the girl really die and saving charlie saved her too?

Catch-22 is one of the major themes of the show - the idea of a catch-22

(some maybe...)
Kate in her catch-22 helping the armless guy who turned her in
Jack in his life and death catch-22s - shannons dad and Sarah
Charlie in his catch-22 to do drugs or lose his brother
Jin's catch was 'working' for Sun's dad or losing Sun
Sun's catch - I think some of it is still to be seen from the trailer
Sawyer's catch was having to become the man he despised in order to survive

I'm sure there are sooo many catch-22s that it would take a website (and I'm sure there is one).

Just because this had a specific catch-22 in it, doesn't mean its the only reason for the episode. It's another theme, like One of Us (jacks tat, Des being told youre on of Us and he wasnt etc). I think this season has been chock-full-of-them-goodness. It's been as if the episodes titles blend into each other week by week - by theme, not just specific lines.

As far as I can remember, this is the original Catch-22 scene from the book, where Yosarrion tells his commander that he doesnt want to be a pilot that drops bombs anymore:

Yosarrion: Sir, I dont want to be a bomardier anymore.
General: You can only stop being a bomardier if youre crazy.
Yosarrion: Well, Im crazy.
General: If youre crazy, you wouldnt want to stop being a bomardier.
Yosarrion: But I DO want to stop being a bomardier.
General: You can only stop being a bomardier if youre crazy.
Yosarrion: I AM crazy.
Etc....

Great thread.

There's another possibility rather than "causal loop" for why the vision mandated these individuals on the trek. We saw visions of Penny and Desmond together again, but obviously, that's a ways off still, given that Penny wasn't the parachutist. So this was the necessary first step to getting there, but there's more that needs to happen, and perhaps having Charlie, Hurley and Jin along is necessary to Desmond surviving/getting back to Penny.

i.e. maybe each of them will play some integral role next week as Desmond tries to follow his further instructions from more visions...:)

Apparently my understanding of the visions are entirely different than everyone elses.

Most people seem to be hung up on it being a "time loop", whereas my understanding from what we've been told is it's a function of his memory. Desmond basically has some degree of memory of his entire life, as it flashed before his eyes. It seems he's capable of changing what happens, and doing so alters his memory (in a sense he's existing outside of time).

If he was actively looping then it wouldn't really make sense that he'd be able to receive new visions, or that his vision would remain constant until he did something. AS he said the "picture in the box" (BTW, anyone else find it intresting he used the word 'box' given the whole Ben box thing?) changes when he tells someone about it. If he looped around time he should have all the memories of his previous loops equally. His actions shouldn't change that at all.

I am firm believer that there is no time loop, just forward memory and a slight existing outside of time.

Interesting that Charlie's guitar took the arrow to the neck, isn't it? Maybe if the universe really is course correcting, Charlie didn't have to get shot in the neck as long as something had to get shot in the neck ;)


Sweet point. This show gets those synapses firing...I wonder if Desmond's leap of faith is to let Charlie die or to keep following his instincts?

Only lost time will tell

jobe?

Apparently my understanding of the visions are entirely different than everyone elses.

Most people seem to be hung up on it being a "time loop", whereas my understanding from what we've been told is it's a function of his memory. Desmond basically has some degree of memory of his entire life, as it flashed before his eyes. It seems he's capable of changing what happens, and doing so alters his memory (in a sense he's existing outside of time).

If he was actively looping then it wouldn't really make sense that he'd be able to receive new visions, or that his vision would remain constant until he did something. AS he said the "picture in the box" (BTW, anyone else find it intresting he used the word 'box' given the whole Ben box thing?) changes when he tells someone about it. If he looped around time he should have all the memories of his previous loops equally. His actions shouldn't change that at all.

I am firm believer that there is no time loop, just forward memory and a slight existing outside of time.

If Desmond's vision was simply a product of seeing the future, then why was it necessary for him to convince Hurley, Jin and Charlie to join his trek? If that was the case, he shouldnt have had to "intervene" by asking them to join - the natural course of future events simply would have dictated that they all go together.

Heres what tipped the writers hand that there is more to this story than seeing the future: If you watch the first fifteen minutes of the episode, you will notice that the writers spend an inordinate amount of time showing Desmond trying to figure out how he'll get the others to join his trek. It was puzzling, since usually the characters dont require a lot of persuasion to join an adventure. Why did the writers "waste" so much time on this? The reason they did this was to stress that Desmond's vision was NOT simply a future premonition where all the vision sequences would neatly fall into place.

Let me put it another way.

If Desmonds visions can simply be explained as seeing into the future, theres no way the writers would have let Desmond spend so much time convincing Charlie, Hurley and Jin to join him - since "future events" would have dictated that they would have come anyway. It was a clue.

[QUOTE=Rice;1503436][FONT=Tms Rmn][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]The way they broke out of this loop in the Terminator movies was to destroy the arm, thus forcing the abandonment of the project. Then there would be nothing sent back in time because there would be no cyborg to be sent back.

I think, In T2, Sarah Conner tried to blow up Cyberdyne, or tried to kill the scientist who would invent SkyNet, but she couldn't do it. In T3, the Terminator sent John Conner into an underground facility, telling him that this is where he could put a stop to SkyNet before it started WWIII, when, in reality, it was a bunker that would ensure his survival of the nuclear blast. Thus, ensuring that he would live long enough to train Kyle Reese and then send him back in time to save and then impregnate Sarah Conner. Hah. I love this stuff!

So, to parallel this with Lost, Desmond turned the fail-safe key and was supposedly sent back in time, where he was guided in a certain direction that would lead him to the island to turn the fail-safe key.

I think so. I think the fail-safe key caused the loop, sending Desmond back in time in order to ensure that he would be set on the path that would lead him to eventually... turning the fail-safe key. C=A=B

We still don't know about the implications of the first Incident, the one that Dr. Candle talks about in the Swan Orientation film, circa 1980. Maybe something similar happened there.

3) Something or someone (perhaps Desmond in another iteration of the loop) will travel back to the past and will prevent the Indicent from happening in the first place, thereby forgoing the need to press the button at all because there would be no button, and therefore no more time loop. This is the most intriguing option for me, and I think it parallels the Terminator plot best. This also has the biggest implication for the losties, because Desmond would complete his sailboat race (if he even went on one at all), and the plane may not have crashed. Perhaps this is how Lost will end. Interesting theory, at least.

I like this one, just cause it's so cool!

I don't think it's a Desmond's personal time-space loop, or even near to a time-space loop, and there's clues right between our eyes.

First, I have to set an axiom: There's only answers, really answers, in two episodes - s03e03 (in the island-inspired-allucination of Locke) and s03e08 (Desmond's "flashback").

In the "message" Locke's received from the Island, Desmond appears as the pilot, and Boone tells about him "he's helping himself". To understand the relation between their "role" (path?) in this dream and their roles in the plot/life, we can assume a meaning analogy with some that appears to be obvious for me: the role of Hurley. He's selling tickets to the flight, and he's the only one who effectively used the numbers - seems like, in a tecnical way, we can conclude that he is the trigger to this "reunion". Taking the analogy, if Desmond is the pilot, then his role in the plot/life seems get close to a lead factor, something that drives the cattle to some place. And the pilot also has a privileged view, he can look forward clearly, some that the passengers can't. But both are in the plane, the same plane.

S03e08 put an extraordinary light over the whole series. I think it's clear that what we are asking in LOST is what's the theory/vision/explanation of Reality they are immersed, and the connections with the reality (VELA incident, Hanso Foundation site, etc.) are there to put the survivors in the same real space we live, beyond the fiction - which means Desmond's universe is ours. So we are the guy with the red shoes, and Penny, and the scary old lady, playing our roles ("paths"), and any explanation to what the hell is going on in that island necessarly explains the reality itself. This brave new world creators intend to lead us is something more like a religion assignment. They act like being inspired (great for us).

That's why I think there's not a loop only in Desmond's life. Whatever Desmonds call "life" is the same place we are, with the coordinate's correction of being in a singularity (the Island). As the "pilot", he looks from a wider point of view - he's unique because of touching this strange structure we are locked up, closely.
And a time loop looks like a too simplist strucuture to embrace all the answers. There's a loop, but I think it's not a time-space loop. The repetition is complex, there's no simple pattern visible, and if the intention is to explain reality itself, the loop must be seen more deeply in its framework.

We´re pawns, Desmond's a Tower. Something is the King.

Does anyone know who updates the Lostpedia site? Its filled with information. I found this part especially interesting, since it confirms what many of us have been saying in this thread:

1) "Catch-22" refers to a no-win situation or a double bind. The literary sense is a situation in which two situations depend on each other to occur. In this episode it refers to the predestination paradox — Desmond only goes on the mission because he sees flashes of him doing so. But the flashes wouldn't have occurred unless he had gone on the mission. So where did the flashes come from?

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Catch-22

i agree that desmond only went on the trek because he'd seen the vision.

this can be supported by the fact that he didnt know what/where the cable was untill he had seen the vision, then he went to ask hurley what/where it was.

the future that was mapped out for him was that he would see the vision of the future and then go on the trek.

i think seeing charlie die was more of a warning. if charlie had been shot by the arrow then the finding of the parachutist would have been delayed and she may have died.

now, im not trying to say that FBYE was anything other than time travel/seeing past and future,
but there are some big similarities between locke's visions of the beachcraft and boone in DEM S1, ( he saw future and past )
and also Eko and Locke's dreams in ' ?' S2

moreover, those dreams and visions that they had were likely helping to fulfil the destiny of the failsafe key being turned.

im NOT saying that these were necessarily anything to do with smokey - smokey is more likely to be responsble for the manifestations rather than the dreams/visions

but i though it may be worth pointing out the similarity....

lastly, i dont believe what des did stopped penny from being the parachutist - once the helicopter took off, or certainly since she landed on the island how could that outcome possibly have changed becuase of charlie ?

BlackLotus touched on it, but I think the biggest point is this....if Desmond lets Charlie die, is there anyway he convinces Jin and Hurley to keep going? I don't think he does. They are going to go back with Charlie to the camp. If Desmond goes with them, the delay will probably cost the parachutist her life, or she will get captured by someone else. If he goes on alone, the rest of his vision is shattered and when he tries to cut her down, her fall may kill her without the parachute to catch her.

And my conjecture is....if he lets Charlie die, not only does the parachutist die, but it really is Penny, doubly damning (pardon my French, but this is the best word I can think of for the phrase - listening to too much Jesus Christ Superstar I guess) him for his choices.

Maybe he did flash back to the picture of Charlie helping to hold the parachute, maybe he just did it subconciously, maybe he realized he couldn't live with Charlie's death on his hands. Whatever the case may be, he made the right choice, although he did not get the result he was hoping for. I can't wait to see where this leads though. Charlie may have a tough time trusting Desmond now.

SmG

I think so. And what a perfect ending for Lost!

Oh that would be WRONG WRONG WRONG!! :complain: :thmbdown: :hissy:

One thing I don't understand about the discussion happening, is: If Des' is actually a coward, as was stated, for not saving Charlie - he sure wasn't a coward when he turned the key. Didn't he say "I'm going to save us all. See you in the next life, brotha"sic?

Is he a coward, or is he just scared? There is a difference - One, Two, Three, Four, Five
He may see himself as a coward and be called a coward, but that sure doesn't mean that he is - it's just his "baggage".

Maybe his actual sacrifice is giving up love to save the world, although he hasn't been able to come to grips with hit yet. Is it better to have loved and lost?


Whatever the case may be
SmG
Not A Good Person: Further Instructions

exactly. Thanks for using an epi name in your explaination. Personally, I'm stuck on epi names and how ambiguous they are.

Visual, I thought the same thing when I saw the episode.

It made me think of that scene in the Matrix when Neo first goes to the Oracle. She says something about "don't worry about that vase," he says somethign and breaks the vase. Then the Oracle says something like, "What's really going to get you, would you have broken the vase if I hadn't said anything?" I think that's same idea applies here. Would they have gone on the trek if Des didn't have the vision to begin with?

I think you've got it. Abraham was supposed to sacrifice Issac, but in the end Isaac was spared by God. So maybe Des is supposed to step back as you say and have faith that Charlie won't die, or will if that is supposed to happen. But the thing is that Des has to let things happen as they're supposed to and stop trying to make them happen as he thinks they should. A huge test of faith.


Why should he stop trying?? You are recommending that he just give up, throw his hands in the air and say oh well. If you have no free will then whats the point of living? When Desmond awoke after his flashback from blowing up the hatch, he swore to never allow his fate to be pre-determined. He would do whatever it took to get back Penny. He cannot allow Charlie to die because that would be failing himself and the test of the island.

Excellent thread! I especially like the catch about Charlie being both dead and alive in Des' original vision. In that vision, there is also a very brief flash of Penny. But is it Penny on the island? It looks like it is rather Penny crying as she did in that scene when Des says goodbye to her right before he meets Jack for the very first time off-island. That, and the photo, would seem to be the reason why he was so sure it was Penny.

One thing I don't understand about the discussion happening, is: If Des' is actually a coward, as was stated, for not saving Charlie - he sure wasn't a coward when he turned the key. Didn't he say "I'm going to save us all. See you in the next life, brotha"sic?
Is he a coward, or is he just scared? There is a difference - One, Two, Three, Four, Five
He may see himself as a coward and be called a coward, but that sure doesn't mean that he is - it's just his "baggage".
Maybe his actual sacrifice is giving up love to save the world, although he hasn't been able to come to grips with hit yet. Is it better to have loved and lost?
I don't quite get this whole thing about cowardice in relation to Desmond saving/not saving Charlie. I think Des just doesn't really know what best to do, either. It surely is a darn scary situation he is in, but Des is not a coward. Scared yes, but no a coward.
And it's a big thing to struggle with - a bit like stopping to push the button. Des' urge is to keep on acting upon the flashes, but I think the thought of not saving Charlie and stopping the whole prediction cycle he's stuck in is a seductive one. Only, he doesn't know what will happen, whether or not that will have any influence on Penny arriving on the island.
I think that Desmond's flashes have changed. They're no longer predictions "merely" of Charlie's impending death, they're like sequences he needs to act out - and he needs to act them out so that they come true. Somebody called it a self-fulfilling prophecy before, and I think that is just the right description.
Right now, what anchors Desmond is the love for Penny and the hope that if he does things just right, Penny will find him. But along with that comes the fear that if he makes the wrong decision, Penny won't find him (and the others). It's just a big moral diloemma Desmond is in right now, and he doesn't yet see what the best course of action is - hence his inner debate about whether or not to let Charlie step on that trap. But I think if it came to it, he'd make the same decision again, and rather sacrifice Penny/his love/the chance of her finding him than sacrificing Charlie or anybody else on the off-chance that htis will bring Penny to him.
BTW, thanks for the Tennyson quote, it's from my all-time favourite poem :biggrin: You made me a very happy camper just now, and it isn't even Wednesday yet.