I'm confused, can anyone help me make sense of this?

In one of Desmond's first flashes, we see the men holding the parachute, like they did at the end to catch the girl. Charlie is in this flash holding the parachute. However, Charlie also dies in these flashes. How can Charlie be in an event at the end if he died prior to finding the girl?

Is Desmond seeing two versions of flashes at once: one where he saves Charlie and one where he doesn't?

Okay, so I watched this again just to make sure.

It's clear as day. It happens on the very first sequence of flashes, within the show's first minute. Desmond sees Charlie get killed with the arrow. Then they show Jin looking up, the camera pans out and there's Charlie holding the parachute with Jin and Hurley.

Can any of the time loop theorists help me out? How can Desmond see, in the same flash sequence, Charlie being killed by the arrow AND Charlie holding up the parachute (which happens after the arrow incident)?

And since Desmond does she Charlie alive in his flash, then doesn't Desmond know that he's going to save Charlie? But if he saved Charlie, then why does Desmond see Charlie get killed?

My head hurts....

My head hurts....

Don't let your head hurt. I'm calling it right now... Production Error!

Don't let your head hurt. I'm calling it right now... Production Error!


The Charlie dying sequence was a long scene, while everything after that were quick flashes. Maybe he envisioned Charlie's possible death, but that everything else after was what was going to actually happen?

Production error? Probably not this one. I think its probably part of Desmond doesnt exactly see things clearly when he has flashes. I imagine its more possible that he saw two scenarios blended into one vision.

I don't think this is a production error. I think it lends to say that some of Desmond's flashes do not happen. Why? Not sure.

Don't let your head hurt. I'm calling it right now... Production Error!

I guess that's the simplest explanation and I'm normally quick to defend the prop people and such but that's a mighty big error. It was a spoiler to the events in the show. I'm assuming that showing Charlie being killed in Desmond's flash was to make the audience think, "OMG, is Charlie going to die? Is Desmond really going to let him die?!?" But then I saw him alive 2 seconds later in the same flash sequence and knew that for him to be alive there means that Desmond doesn't let him die. I found it to be a real disappointment. The mini-climax of the episode was spoiled in the first minute of the show. :confused:

Desmond said it was like the pieces of a puzzle, only he didn't know where the edges were to make them fit.

So I guess he just may have seen them out of order or saw both outcomes in one vision. Or, in other words, saw a bunch of pieces to a puzzle, only not all of the pieces were for the same puzzle

The flashes may be programed into his mind. He sees the flash andwhat should happen, what could happen and what will happen,

The Charlie dying sequence was a long scene, while everything after that were quick flashes. Maybe he envisioned Charlie's possible death, but that everything else after was what was going to actually happen?

I thought the same thing. Then I watched the epi again. The first time Desmond has the vision is it a long scene. But then he has 4 more flashes of Charlie being killed with the arrow throughout the show. So if everything he envisioned after the first long scene was what was going to happen, then Charlie should be dead b/c Demond had 4 more flashes of Charlie dying that that first long one.

I'm so confused.

I didn't read the whole thread but If Charlie dies then there is no way they go on to find the Parachutist, they take Charlie back to camp. The rest of the vision is based on Des Saving Charlie. This is why we see Charlie holding the parachute.

I think this is at least one of the catch 22's of the episode. Desmond believes he has to do everything exactly as the flashes showed him in order to find Penny. Therefore he must let Charlie die, but Charlie must be alive when they reach the parachute so that he can help catch the parachuter. So, if Desmond follows the first flash and lets Charlie die (and for the sake of story, pretend they contiune on anyway) than the other flash will not happen as it "should" because Charlie is not there. But, if Desmond saves Charlie so that he will be there to catch the parachuter, he's changed the first flash. See what I mean... Catch 22, it's impossible for Desmond to keep what happens in the flashes exact, becuase they compete with each other.

Okay - I am going to try and explain the time loop theory.

Remember it is a "loop" not just going back or forward in time. Every time Desmond resets the hatch he loops back in time to the beginning of his loop. Everything happens all over again and again and again.

1. He falls off the ladder in the apartment and spills the red paint.
2. He breaks up with Penny.
3. He joins the military.
4. He goes to prison.
5. He races his sailboat.
6. He lands at the island.
7. He pushes the button.
8. The plane crashes.
9. The survivors discover the hatch.
10. Desmonds runs to sailboat and tries to sail away
11. Stuff happens to the losties
12. Desmond returns to the island
13. Desmond and Locke blow up the hatch.
14. Return to #1 and repeat until Lost ends.

Everytime Desmond goes thru the loop, he is changing something. Maybe the first time thru the loop Charlie dies by the lightning. The next time thru the loop Desmond creates the lightning rod, saving Charlie's life, but then Charlie dies trying to save Claire. The next time thru the loop, Desmond creates the lightning rod, saves Charlie, rescues Claire, which saves Charlie again, but Charlie dies trying to capture a bird for Claire. The next time thru Desmond creates the lightning rod, rescues Claire, catches the bird, but Charlie get nailed in the throat with an arrow out in the jungle on the trek to save the parachutist. So this time thru, Desmond: creates the lightning rod, rescues Claire, catches the bird, and tells Charlie to duck.

So Desmond is seeing all his loops and the possible outcomes.

Confused yet?
:confused:

Confused yet?
:confused:

not anymore!
the two last posts were fine theories. thank you guys :hypocrit:

Okay - I am going to try and explain the time loop theory.

Remember it is a "loop" not just going back or forward in time. Every time Desmond resets the hatch he loops back in time to the beginning of his loop. Everything happens all over again and again and again.

1. He falls off the ladder in the apartment and spills the red paint.
2. He breaks up with Penny.
3. He joins the military.
4. He goes to prison.
5. He races his sailboat.
6. He lands at the island.
7. He pushes the button.
8. The plane crashes.
9. The survivors discover the hatch.
10. Desmonds runs to sailboat and tries to sail away
11. Stuff happens to the losties
12. Desmond returns to the island
13. Desmond and Locke blow up the hatch.
14. Return to #1 and repeat until Lost ends.

Everytime Desmond goes thru the loop, he is changing something. Maybe the first time thru the loop Charlie dies by the lightning. The next time thru the loop Desmond creates the lightning rod, saving Charlie's life, but then Charlie dies trying to save Claire. The next time thru the loop, Desmond creates the lightning rod, saves Charlie, rescues Claire, which saves Charlie again, but Charlie dies trying to capture a bird for Claire. The next time thru Desmond creates the lightning rod, rescues Claire, catches the bird, but Charlie get nailed in the throat with an arrow out in the jungle on the trek to save the parachutist. So this time thru, Desmond: creates the lightning rod, rescues Claire, catches the bird, and tells Charlie to duck.

So Desmond is seeing all his loops and the possible outcomes.

Confused yet?
:confused:

Dont think that makes sence tbh, as we are already past #14. He came back when he got hit on the head, the loop has stoped if there was one. IMO anyway

I think this is at least one of the catch 22's of the episode. Desmond believes he has to do everything exactly as the flashes showed him in order to find Penny. Therefore he must let Charlie die, but Charlie must be alive when they reach the parachute so that he can help catch the parachuter. So, if Desmond follows the first flash and lets Charlie die (and for the sake of story, pretend they contiune on anyway) than the other flash will not happen as it "should" because Charlie is not there. But, if Desmond saves Charlie so that he will be there to catch the parachuter, he's changed the first flash. See what I mean... Catch 22, it's impossible for Desmond to keep what happens in the flashes exact, becuase they compete with each other.

I think you got it right, this makes the most sense. That is what Catch 22 (the name of the ep) means:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22_(logic)

I personally think that the two, obviously opposite futures for Charlie are something like the Schrodinger's Cat experiment. You can wiki it but a succinct explanation follows:

We put a cat in an opaque, sealed, soundproof box. There is absolutely no way to determine what is going on inside. With the cat we also install a feeding mechanism, and we program this mechanism to feed the cat poisoned food based on the radioactive decay of a certain, unknown to us, element. Basically, the cat will randomly be fed poisoned food at some point in time, without our having any idea when.

Because we have no method of determining whether the cat is alive or dead at any given time, it follows that we must assume that the cat is both alive AND dead...until we open the box.

It is the opening of the box, then, that separates these two possible outcomes for the cat into distinct possibilities, or very simply and somewhat incorrectly, we can say that it is us who kill the cat by opening the box.

Similarly, Charlie is both alive AND dead at the time we see the flashes because we have no real way of knowing what Desmond will choose to do. By saving Charlie, he has "activated", in a way, the future in which Charlie is helping with the parachute.

Hope that makes sense. But wiki "Schrodinger's Cat" if you need a better explanation.

Wow Andromeda. That is too much for this time in the morning, but I really like what you explained, Charlie being both alive and dead upon viewing the flashes. I will definitely look that up. That explains why Charlie could have been there at the episodes beginning flashback.

Also, did the parachute itself change color between the flashback and the end part? It looked like it to me.

I think this is at least one of the catch 22's of the episode. Desmond believes he has to do everything exactly as the flashes showed him in order to find Penny. Therefore he must let Charlie die, but Charlie must be alive when they reach the parachute so that he can help catch the parachuter. So, if Desmond follows the first flash and lets Charlie die (and for the sake of story, pretend they contiune on anyway) than the other flash will not happen as it "should" because Charlie is not there. But, if Desmond saves Charlie so that he will be there to catch the parachuter, he's changed the first flash. See what I mean... Catch 22, it's impossible for Desmond to keep what happens in the flashes exact, becuase they compete with each other.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm trying to get my head around this so maybe you can help me to better understand. So you're saying that Desmond doesn't want to do things exactly as shown in his flashes? I got the impression while watching the epi that Desmond felt he had to let Charlie die or else the rest of the vision wouldn't happen (Penny--or who he thought was Penny--arriving on the island).

And here's the biggest problem I have understanding this: I got the impression that Desmond felt he needed to let Charlie die and that he was in fact, going to let Charlie die. It appeared that only at the last possible second did Desmond change his mind about Charlie's life. It was almost as if when he saw the arrow and Charlie step on the trip wire, at that moment he changed his mind and decided to save Charlie's life. But then, wouldn't he have known all along that he was going to save Charlie's life b/c he saw Charlie alive in the first flash sequence?

Wow Andromeda. That is too much for this time in the morning, but I really like what you explained, Charlie being both alive and dead upon viewing the flashes. I will definitely look that up. That explains why Charlie could have been there at the episodes beginning flashback.

Thanks!

Also, this is a fundamental principle of quantum physics and entaglement theory; it's not like it's something all sci-fi. I'm personally in the camp that everything has an explanation based at least in theoretical science, so I'm trying to apply my knowledge of theoretical physics to it.

But, yeah, it sure beats aliens or time-loops.

I'm trying to get my head around this so maybe you can help me to better understand. So you're saying that Desmond doesn't want to do things exactly as shown in his flashes?

What I'm saying is that Desmond does want to do things exactly as the flashes show, but no matter what he does, he can't, since it's impossible for Charlie to both die and be alive to catch the parachute. If he lets Charlie die, the parachute flash is changed, but if he saves Charlie the flash of Charlie dying is changed.

Catch 22 can be a confusing concept (I was so excited when I learned there was going to be an episode called this though :)). Did that help you any?

Okay - I am going to try and explain the time loop theory.

Remember it is a "loop" not just going back or forward in time. Every time Desmond resets the hatch he loops back in time to the beginning of his loop. Everything happens all over again and again and again.

1. He falls off the ladder in the apartment and spills the red paint.
2. He breaks up with Penny.
3. He joins the military.
4. He goes to prison.
5. He races his sailboat.
6. He lands at the island.
7. He pushes the button.
8. The plane crashes.
9. The survivors discover the hatch.
10. Desmonds runs to sailboat and tries to sail away
11. Stuff happens to the losties
12. Desmond returns to the island
13. Desmond and Locke blow up the hatch.
14. Return to #1 and repeat until Lost ends.

Everytime Desmond goes thru the loop, he is changing something. Maybe the first time thru the loop Charlie dies by the lightning. The next time thru the loop Desmond creates the lightning rod, saving Charlie's life, but then Charlie dies trying to save Claire. The next time thru the loop, Desmond creates the lightning rod, saves Charlie, rescues Claire, which saves Charlie again, but Charlie dies trying to capture a bird for Claire. The next time thru Desmond creates the lightning rod, rescues Claire, catches the bird, but Charlie get nailed in the throat with an arrow out in the jungle on the trek to save the parachutist. So this time thru, Desmond: creates the lightning rod, rescues Claire, catches the bird, and tells Charlie to duck.

So Desmond is seeing all his loops and the possible outcomes.

Confused yet?
:confused:


This is the way I explained it at home. To me, this theory makes the most sense.


And, why did we see Charlie die and holding the parachute??? Production error. Fast flash of film, NOT a writer/director/producer editing the film, short time frame to get the film edited, NOT familiar with the entire script, just their part of the editing process, etc. Plain and simple, production error.