Another thread just mentioned that the "Catch 22" in the episode was directed at Desmond by showing us that Desmond is stuck in a time loop. The time loop itself is the "catch-22".

Here is what I'm thinking....I'm wondering if the Others also know that they are stuck in a time loop, and that leaving the Island would have catastrophic consequences. This is why that Ben won't let Juliette leave the Island, despite the fact that he's pretty sure Juliette could resolve their infertility issues if she could leave if even for a short amount of time. The Others know that the only way to ensure all of humanity will continue to exist is if they continue their roles on the Island. Are the Others grooming the Losties to be their replacements?

Think about this... we know (kind of) that there was an insurgency on the Island between the scientists and the "Hostiles". When that insurgency was quashed (i.e. the purge), the Others became the successors to the DI scientists research and protectors of the Island. Once that happened, they learned that the Island truly holds these awesome powers and that it needs to be protected. During their review of the DI experiments and projects they learned that whatever they may try to do, events would eventually come back again full circle. They didn't accept this at first, but after spending quite some time on the Island they came to the realization that it was indeed true. If they failed to keep that circle going, humanity would suffer dire consequences.
So here come the Losties... during their brief time on the Island thus far, they know that there are very strange and amazing phenomenon on the Island but they refuse to accept it as the truth. The Others are determined to enlighten the Losties about the secrets of the Island, but they have to do so in small doses in order to ensure the Losties don't just reject the entire thing and in doing so, destroy humanity.
So what the Others have done is gain incredible amounts of information on the Losties so they can accurately pick out the Losties that fit the profile of being the most likely candidates that would eventually accept the truth about the Island and what was going on. (i.e. "good" and "bad") This is eseentially the "List" that we have heard in the past. The Others are carefully grooming the Losties to get them to believe, and are essentially choosing their "twin" in terms of personality and likelihood to eventually accept everything as the truth.

Ben - he is grooming Locke. Ben realizes that the Island is incredibly special, and holds these amazing powers that need to be carefully guarded by any means necessary. That is why he won't let anyone leave the Island, because if anyone does; the loop breaks and humanity is doomed. Locke is trying to prevent everyone from being rescued (blowing up the sub) so that they can remain there to learn more of the Island's secrets, but he is not yet aware of the true consequences if anyone leaves. I think he will come to see that here shortly.

To continue further, I think Jack's role as the doctor will eventually make him Ethan's replacement.

Kate and Sawyer? Danny and Colleen

Sayid? Tom's replacement...(I don't have a good comparison of those too at the moment, so it's kind of a guess?)

Bernard and Rose? Mikhail and Ms. Klugh - Why? Bernard has a deep desire to make contact with the outside world. Having him take Mikhail's place would satisfy that desire, but he will come to see that he can "watch" the outside world to keep informed of things but he cannot contact them under any circumstance. Rose and Ms. Klugh comparison? They both seem to be a sort of calming presence for both the Others and the Losties. Also, Rose seems to take everything with a "if its meant to be, it will be" mentality, much like Ms. Klughs statement to Mikhail that "it must be done" right before he shoots her.

I can't think of anything at the moment regarding the other Losties and the Others, so I'll let everyone tear that apart. :) I'm sure this is full of holes LOL, but I thought it seemed to be somewhat plausible so I thought I would give it a shot.... have away! :)

Nice idea about 'replacing' people, getting some new blood in there. Last week's ep got me thinking about the whole time loop thing again. I read some more stuff about Rachel in the bible, and how she eventually gave birth to a son named Benjamin...

Is it possible that Juliet's sister Rachel is really Ben's mother??? Could Rachel have been brought to the island to cure her cancer, and then returned to the mainland with Ben??? Ben says that he was born on the island, but what if he returned to the mainland only to be 'kidnapped' by Dharma/Mittleos to bring him back to his birth island?

Quite far-fetched, I know, but I couldn't help thinking that during last week's ep.
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Interesting. Though I would equate Tom with Hurley.

This article was posted today by Jeff Jensen with Entertainment Weekly.... down near the end of it, he goes into another theory regarding how time passes in a recurring loop. To quote:

"Rousseau's arrows; Ms. Hawking and her ouroboros; and Desmond's recurring commitment issues There is a notion in mythology and philosophy dating back to ancient Greece and Egypt known as eternal return, or what Friedrich Nietzsche called eternal recurrence. The idea: Time isn't linear, but cyclical (symbolized by the ouroboros), and everything and everyone essentially repeats the dramatic arc of their lives, over and over again, albeit in different ways and in different forms. For example: Desmond's broken relationship with Ruth + Desmond's broken relationship with Penelope + Desmond's catchphrase ''See you in another life, brother!'' = eternal recurrence. But here's where it gets interesting. It seems that recent theories about the birth and inevitable death of the universe allow for the possibility of time travel and various forms of ''eternal returns.'' These are complex ideas — ''Big Crunch,'' ''Time Reversal,'' and other notions advanced by Lost-cited egghead Stephen Hawking — and I'm not even going to try to summarize them. But they all utilize a few core concepts, including what physicists refer to as ''the arrows of time.'' Look 'em up."

I'm thinking that the Others now have the realization that in order to preserve the continued existence of humanity, that this "loop" must continue to occur with no major modifications to the previous iterations. In other words - deviate from this predetermined loop or arc, and humanity is doomed to extinction.

Wow, this is extremely intersting. Well put. I'm on-board.

A kind of analogy I just thought of to explain the whole thing is kind of like this... the Island, its secrets, its protection, and the continuing loop of time is kind of like the hamster wheel that keeps the world going (and humanity existing). If the wheel is broken, or it stops, humanity ceases to exist.
This seems to rationalize why Ben is willing to do almost anything to keep people on the Island. He knows that his people could even be saved if someone were permitted to leave the Island (i.e. Juliet taking a test subject with her or bringing one back). However he has put his duty or calling above his own wants and desires, because he knows this is what must be done to essentially "save the world"

Something else I just realized is that I'm willing to bet that Ben and Desmond are more alike than we think so far. The season finale is rumored to be a Ben flashback, and I'm betting that we will see that Ben's has had to make decisions like Desmond (to save or not to save Charlie). He probably has the future flash visions like Desmond as well.... consider this: from what we know, Ben has been on the Island *much* longer than Desmond, so he has had more time to contemplate and come to an understanding of his "visions". I'm sure that Ben at some point tried to influence the outcome of things to satisfy his wants, needs, and desires, but he has finally conceded that what is meant to be is what is meant to be; and if humanity is to continue existing, he must do what his calling tells him. Desmond is still in the early stages of what you might call this "enlightenment" phase. He's still trying to sway things away from the way they were meant to be, and I think we will start to see more catastrophic consequences of his desire to change things. EW.com's Jeff Jensen said in his article today that The parachutist they found in the jungle brings Desmond a message that is "deadly"

This could be a warning to him to stop resisting and let the course of things flow naturally, or he will begin dismantling humanity piece by piece. Eventually, whatever higher power is dictating the course of events is going to essentially tell Desmond "You're a good man Desmond. We know you were trying to do what you felt was right and what was good, but this is the way things were MEANT to happen." At that point, Desmond will be "redeemed" in a way, and likely elevated to the same status of enlightenment we currently see in Ben. We can clearly see (I think so anyways) the emotional strain and inner turmoil that Ben has had to deal with when he has told people that no matter what, they cannot leave. Deep down he knows that they and his people could be saved by changing things, but the cost of that is too high to pay. I found it interesting when he told Juliet that "Yes, you could leave and go home and be with her sister during her last days; or you could stay here and help us solve our problem". I don't think he was referring to just her sister's last days. He was implying (though Juliet may not have understood at that time) that if she left, it would be EVERYONE's last days because the circle or arc would be broken. If she stays on the Island, they will cure her sister's cancer as a sort of "reward" for continuing to put her faith in Ben and trusting him that remaining on the Island is the best thing for the world. In some ways, it seems Juliet is also a Woman of Science and a Woman of Faith. I've ranted enough I think....LOL let me know what you all think!

Ok pretty good ideas, to complicted though, look the island has powers what ever they may be. I think the island gave desmond the ability to see and even change the future Why? because he turned the key to destroy the swan and thats exactally what the island wanted. Locke gets his legs back and starts blowing stuff up Why? cause thats how the island works. Ben, being born on the island, shouldnt have been using so much technology thats why he got cancer the island wasnt protecting him anymore but it was protecting locke.Unfortunately for charlie desmond is being tested and the only way to pass is to let charlie die.Because letting charlie live is like running away from the outcome which desmond is very fond of doing.Problem is no matter how many times you change it your gonna end up with thee same result. i also would not be suprised if by him saving charlie all the time its postponing his and pennies reunion.

Interesting. Though I would equate Tom with Hurley.


That's a very good point Nevertoolate - they both seem to be a sort of "messenger" in their respective group. (Hurley returns from the docks to inform the Losties of J, K, and S's capture, while Tom brings the message to the Losties in the jungle during their "crossing the line" meeting) They also both seem to have a kind of "just go with the flow" personality, and try not to step on anyone's toes.
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i also would not be suprised if by him saving charlie all the time its postponing his and pennies reunion.

Or potentially eliminating the possibility of it ever happening at all..... I think we are going to end up seeing that each time he saves Charlie, or attempts to alter the predestined path of things the consequences get steadily worse. This time, the consequence was that Penny was not the parachutist and their reunion was postponed. The next time? Maybe the remaining researchers (the only ones with even a slight inkling of where the Island might actually be) come looking for the female pilot that landed and they all die, removing all hope for a rescue. Something to ponder...

there is no time loop on the island. i thought the creators specified this already.

I know its been referenced before but I gotta bring up "The Dark Tower" series by Stephen King. The first novel was on " Ol Bug Eyes" night table, and the similarities are uncanny. Look into it!!!

"See you in another life" by Jake(Gunslinger)

"See you in another world brother" by Desmond (Lost)

The tower! He thought fiercely. It's the tower, My God, the Tower is in the sky, the tower!
I see the tower in the sky, drawn in lines of red fire! Cutbert! Alan! Desmond! The tower!
(The Drawing of the three, by Stephen King page 1380
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Ooops....better stop drinking and posting!lol.

If all this is true, why would the Others have let Michael and Walt leave? We actually saw them get on the boat and leave. They weren't killed or anything like that.

How do you know of what happened to them?

No one knows for sure, but we saw them get on the boat and leave. I suppose it's possible Ben rigged the boat to explode after they were at sea.

I was just throwing Michael out there because people were talking about how Ben knows what would happen if someone left the island.

I think we are going to find out by the end of the season that Michael and Walt didn't leave. Ben's instructions to Michael before he jumped on the boat never specifically said they were leaving the Island; only that if they followed the precise heading that they would find "rescue".

there is no time loop on the island. i thought the creators specified this already.

I would never believe the very people whose livelihood depends on keeping us watching. In all the hundreds of theories ever presented about this show I'm pretty sure the chance that some folks have come close are very good. Of course the writers are not super-humans that can never be figured out. They can be figured out and they will do whatever it takes to draw us off course when we get close. If it was your story wouldn't you do the very same?

Why even have podcasts and such... to give away the mystery or to protect it?

I do like this theory in general.

To continue further, I think Jack's role as the doctor will eventually make him Ethan's replacement.

Kate and Sawyer? Danny and Colleen

Sayid? Tom's replacement...(I don't have a good comparison of those too at the moment, so it's kind of a guess?)

Bernard and Rose? Mikhail and Ms. Klugh -

I'm trying to go here with you but I don't quite understand why the original Others are being replaced. Could you extrapolate, please?

I'm trying to go here with you but I don't quite understand why the original Others are being replaced. Could you extrapolate, please?


Well, the Ms. Klugh/Mikhail and Bernard/Rose comparison I kind of went off on a tangent....I originally meant to stick with only those on the "List", which was Hurley, Jack, Kate, Sawyer. Locke wasn't on there either, but I beleive his role thus far closely mirrors what I think we will see in Ben's past if we get to see a flashback of his. (Season finale maybe??)

I digress though.... why are the Others being replaced? Well, my logic was that after the Others took over everything from Dharma, they discovered that the Island is indeed in a time loop and that eventually everything that has occurred will come again full circle. What I mean by that is that eventually a group of people will come to the Island and "purge" the Others. The Others know this, and they also are aware that the Island must be protected at all costs. Since they know they are doomed to "extinction" of sorts, they are making preparations for this inevitable turn of events by grooming or prepping the Losties to take their place once they are gone. They also have to ensure that their "replacements" understand the role they are taking in preserving humanity by protecting the Island as well as ensuring that no one ever leaves it....

I digress though.... why are the Others being replaced? Well, my logic was that after the Others took over everything from Dharma, they discovered that the Island is indeed in a time loop and that eventually everything that has occurred will come again full circle. What I mean by that is that eventually a group of people will come to the Island and "purge" the Others. The Others know this, and they also are aware that the Island must be protected at all costs. Since they know they are doomed to "extinction" of sorts, they are making preparations for this inevitable turn of events by grooming or prepping the Losties to take their place once they are gone. They also have to ensure that their "replacements" understand the role they are taking in preserving humanity by protecting the Island as well as ensuring that no one ever leaves it....

Okay! I get it! Great theory. It fits with a personal belief of mine that life is a series of patterns that are ultimately universal.

Although I'm a little confused as to why the Others would be so violent towards the Losties if they are grooming them as replacements. Would their behavior be equated to a type fear of death? Kind of a kicking and clawing at staying alive and in their posts?

This article was posted today by Jeff Jensen with Entertainment Weekly.... down near the end of it, he goes into another theory regarding how time passes in a recurring loop. To quote:

"Rousseau's arrows; Ms. Hawking and her ouroboros; and Desmond's recurring commitment issues There is a notion in mythology and philosophy dating back to ancient Greece and Egypt known as eternal return, or what Friedrich Nietzsche called eternal recurrence. The idea: Time isn't linear, but cyclical (symbolized by the ouroboros), and everything and everyone essentially repeats the dramatic arc of their lives, over and over again, albeit in different ways and in different forms. For example: Desmond's broken relationship with Ruth + Desmond's broken relationship with Penelope + Desmond's catchphrase ''See you in another life, brother!'' = eternal recurrence. But here's where it gets interesting. It seems that recent theories about the birth and inevitable death of the universe allow for the possibility of time travel and various forms of ''eternal returns.'' These are complex ideas — ''Big Crunch,'' ''Time Reversal,'' and other notions advanced by Lost-cited egghead Stephen Hawking — and I'm not even going to try to summarize them. But they all utilize a few core concepts, including what physicists refer to as ''the arrows of time.'' Look 'em up."

I'm thinking that the Others now have the realization that in order to preserve the continued existence of humanity, that this "loop" must continue to occur with no major modifications to the previous iterations. In other words - deviate from this predetermined loop or arc, and humanity is doomed to extinction.

Except the whole "Big Crunch" theory has been completely debunked. It's possible, but at the time Hawking theorized it we didn't have as accurate calculations as to the total mass of the universe. Now we have much more accurate mass esitmates, and we know now that the mass of the universe is enough to keep it expanding forever...there will never be a big crunch.

Also, no big crunch means no time proceeding in an opposite direction from conscience, which is what the "arrow of time" is all about.

I know its been referenced before but I gotta bring up "The Dark Tower" series by Stephen King. The first novel was on " Ol Bug Eyes" night table, and the similarities are uncanny. Look into it!!!


Sorry maybe I missed it, but who had the dark tower on his nightstand in what episode? :confused:

Ben had it in his bedroom, in Man from Tallahassee when Locke busted in the door.
Someone had a screencap of it, I will see if I can find it for you.....
Julia had Stephen Kings Carrie last episode - and in the first episode of the season.(Her sister was also reading a Stephen King book - can't remember which one though.)
When they had ben captured and thought of him as Henry Gale, and brought him a book, he replied "What, no Stephen King?" or something to that affect.
Lost is one of Stephen Kings favorite tv shows and he has commented on it several times.
The makers of Lost bought the rights to produce Stephen Kings Dark Tower series from King for the magic sum of nineteen dollars (19 and 99 are the magic numbers in the Dark Tower series.)

I really like this theory, and the part that I really latched onto is the Locke replacing Ben as the island's chosen one. Maybe that's why Ben got a tumor at roughly the same time Locke's legs started working. The island is no longer protecting Ben as its protector because Locke's time has come. Or, along the same lines, maybe the island only has so much "healing" it can give and when Locke came, some of the healing power was diverted away from Ben and into Locke. Maybe Ben's tumor was lying dormant for years, and now the island is "allowing" it to become a problem.

I would never believe the very people whose livelihood depends on keeping us watching. In all the hundreds of theories ever presented about this show I'm pretty sure the chance that some folks have come close are very good. Of course the writers are not super-humans that can never be figured out. They can be figured out and they will do whatever it takes to draw us off course when we get close. If it was your story wouldn't you do the very same?

Why even have podcasts and such... to give away the mystery or to protect it?

I do like this theory in general.

first off, they have expressly said that alot of people have come up with weird theories, like the island being purgatory and the time loop theyve said that in jest like people are idiots.

second off, at the beginning of the show, they said there would be a logical explination for everything. like something that could/ might/ is possible. (even smokey can be explained through technology, being a bunch of nano bots) or something to that extent.

there would be no way they could explain the time travel time loop logically and expect people to really believe it. unless they somehow say that island does not exist in time and space. which isn't the case if you can get there by a plane or helicoptor!

I like the replacement theory. One point that I did not see made yet in relation to this theory is that Ben is trying to get the women on the island to be able to reproduce. Perhaps this was/is his goal, to have the women give birth to their eventual replacements? Then, the plane crashes, and more potential replacements arrive....this begs the question which has not been addressed --- what their some force that brought the Losties to the island in order for them to be the replacements? Did Ben crash the plance? Did the Island crash the plane?

I know that the writers have said that everything will have a plausible (not a direct quote) explanation, but time travel is plausible. I must agree that in real life I don't think that there will ever be time travel or "future seeing" but even Einstein thought that traveling through time was possible. With all the theories out there one or two have to be close so to put in my two cents I think that this one may have some merit.

I personally think that everyone is there for a reason. The Others may have manipulated it somehow, perhaps Ben had his hand in it, or Dharma brought together a group of people that had nothing to lose. OR DESMOND COULD BE RESPONSIBLE, I don't think Desmond knows at this point that he is responsible, but I think that through his time travel, like in "Flashes" he has come in contact with all of the Losties, therefore bringing them to the island. As this thing unfolds I am even more convinced of this. Now I belive that the monk and Mrs. Hawkings may be Dharma or another group (perhaps Widmore) trying to get control of the island. They are training and molding Des to be this "shepherd." They are not neccessarily the best people but they are the right people for the job.

I like the replacement idea, I am not sure if I agree with it but, it could be the others that have groomed Desmond, to bring the right people to the Island.

Here are the "powers that I think have been shown so far:

Locke: Shaman, one with the Island, Mystic
Desmond: Shepherd, future seeer
Hurley: Luck
Jack: The reluctant leader sort of the Captain America of the Group.

There were a few more that I thought were figured out but they are dead now, it's not a perfect theory.

Also, pushing the button in the hatch could have been a test set up by Ben to find someone who had 'the faith' in order to be Ben's replacement?

Regarding the time loop -- interesting theory and I'm wondering if there is a loop or displacement myself. Instead of a lopp I'm leaning toward "time slip" or the fact that the island doesn't even exist in the world as we know it -- it only exists in this massive electromagnetic bubble.

Regarding a potential coure correction or alternate universe -- I have actually considred that maybe the Losties jumped a time line extremely similar to their own after the anomoly/Swan implosion-explosion. I have no other evidence for this than perhaps Jack's "new" stars tattoos actually belong to a Jack from an alternate dimmension. It's way out there I know but otherwise TPTB have become extremely sloppy covering it up.

Regarding replacing the Losties -- I would have to disagree with your theory. The Others were content with letting the Losties exist on "their side" of the island without crossing the "line." Ben and the others made a list and abducted the people they wanted. Ben actually made a trip to the hatch to recruit Locke. I don't think the others have any furture plans for the Losties other than what is currently in the works and far from having them become replacements.