Watch the vision in slow-motion. Although there's an image of the Des/Penny picture, there's ALSO an image of Des and Penny face to face in the jungle.

So i believe we're to assume he DID change his future by saving Charlie. OR that someone wants him to think that he did....

Please provide a link to the shot.:kiss:

Yes, please find the shot, I would love to see that.

Ok, I've requested a screencap from DarkUFO. Don't have the capability of doing one myself from my tv.

Ok, I've requested a screencap from DarkUFO. Don't have the capability of doing one myself from my tv.

Awesome, Dark's really quick with this stuff. Can't wait to see if this is true. If it is, I completely missed it!

I did to, Thank God for saving Charlie!

Watch the vision in slow-motion. Although there's an image of the Des/Penny picture, there's ALSO an image of Des and Penny face to face in the jungle.

So i believe we're to assume he DID change his future by saving Charlie. OR that someone wants him to think that he did....

hmm... beginning middle or end of show? any reference point so i can check my dvr?

i have the ep on my computer. The pilot in the his flashes still had the helmet on.. i don't see how you thought it was Penny. :confused: This is right before Des says "lets head out first thing in the morning"

EDIT: ok I think you meant in the beginning when we first see his visions... there was a quick cut of Penny in between shots of the pilot being cut down. I'll post a screen shot in a minute.. the background is definitely green but hard to tell if its in the jungle or just the lighting

EDIT #2: ok here's the screen shot

http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sequence01zv9.jpg

I don't think that screencap is coming...

i have the ep on my computer. The pilot in the his flashes still had the helmet on.. i don't see how you thought it was Penny. :confused: This is right before Des says "lets head out first thing in the morning"

It's essentially in the first vision sequence. After Des and his three amigos finish tramping through the jungle and we see Charlie get shot in the neck, there are "flashes": Hurley and the cable, the red beacon in the sky, the photo of Des and Pen. When the camera focuses on the parachutist hanging from the tree, it then pans up and left, and as it does so there's a shot of Penny against a blurred but greenish background, looking at what appears to be Desmond.

Maybe this is Desmond seeing an earlier image of Penny -- say, when she confronts him outside the stadium -- but if so it would be inconsistent with the vision, since otherwise it only shows events to come, on the island.

I saw nothing in the flashes. Had helmet on like previous poster said. There was a mini flash of Penny/Des face to face but it wasn't on the island, it was when they broke up or whatever. Not on the island.

I checked on my computer (poor man's dvr) and agree that the flash is of Penny with a fuzzy background. Could be the island, could be before.

More importantly, I noticed that in the flash, the pilot is wearing lace up boots, but when it really happens, she is wearing shoes that are different, maybe part of her suit? That also implies that the flash forward got changed when it become reality.

I saw nothing in the flashes. Had helmet on like previous poster said. There was a mini flash of Penny/Des face to face but it wasn't on the island, it was when they broke up or whatever. Not on the island.

What makes you so sure it was pre-island? There's NOTHING else in the vision sequence that's off island. Why would that one vision be of something off the island?

And contrast it with Desmond thinking about Penny later on the beach with Hurley, when he clearly IS remembering them together pre-island.

It's essentially in the first vision sequence. After Des and his three amigos finish tramping through the jungle and we see Charlie get shot in the neck, there are "flashes": Hurley and the cable, the red beacon in the sky, the photo of Des and Pen. When the camera focuses on the parachutist hanging from the tree, it then pans up and left, and as it does so there's a shot of Penny against a blurred but greenish background, looking at what appears to be Desmond.

Maybe this is Desmond seeing an earlier image of Penny -- say, when she confronts him outside the stadium -- but if so it would be inconsistent with the vision, since otherwise it only shows events to come, on the island.

K i see what you're talking about. Slow motioned that part. Hard to tell what the background is at all, but you're right it would be "inconsistent" with his "vision" of the "future events" by having a memory of Penny.

Interesting.

I spoke too soon.. perhaps it WILL happen, and we'll see that scene before the season ends.

NOT
Why do people post stuff like this :)

That is penny from the "Flashes" episode when Desmond tells her he cant be with her just after the picture is taken. For crying out loud there is a park bench in the background. You guys

NOT
Why do people post stuff like this :)

That is penny from the "Flashes" episode when Desmond tells her he cant be with her just after the picture is taken.

But where were they standing? It's green in the pic that's posted here.. but that does make more sense.

BTW, the translation of Catch 22 was in Portuguese, right? It was "Ardil 22" I think, which isn't French or Spanish, and it would make sense for it to be Portuguese. On my crappy TV it looked like the pages were blank and it just had the photo in it.

But where were they standing? It's green in the pic that's posted here.. but that does make more sense.

It looks to me like its the water behind her. Hes got the same color shirt on as in the photo too. Although I agree it seems inconsistant with the rest of the "flashes".
But I do believe its when he dumped her right after the picture of the two of them was taken.

I'm probably going crazy but I thought I saw a toilet behind them in this shot

http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sequence01zv9.jpg

:confused:

I'm probably going crazy but I thought I saw a toilet behind them in this shot

http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sequence01zv9.jpg

:confused:

Heh...mystery solved. They are in the Pearl.:biggrin:

NOT
Why do people post stuff like this :)

That is penny from the "Flashes" episode when Desmond tells her he cant be with her just after the picture is taken. For crying out loud there is a park bench in the background. You guys

Thanks to Sarah Mai for the screencap: http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?i...uence01zv9.jpg That's the one I'm talking about, the one from the first vision.

And here's the one from Flashes BEfore Your Eyes: http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1250-675.html

I agree -- same shot, basically.

So, John Burger, sorry I don't have your photographic memory -- and I certainly don't see a park bench in either photo. You really think it was inappropriate for me to post this in the first place??? I still say it's inconsistent with the vision, and odd....

I'm probably going crazy but I thought I saw a toilet behind them in this shot

http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sequence01zv9.jpg

:confused:


No, you're not crazy. I'm sure it's not a toliet, at least I hope it's not. It does look like one though! Thats hysterical. :rotflmao2:

Even if there wasn't a scene with Penny and Desmond face-to-face on the Island, it's pretty clear that Desmond felt that if he put the pieces of his vision together just right he would be reunited with Penny. He did in fact think that the parachutist was Penny, and it seems he also felt that his saving Charlie altered that outcome.

Des is wearing the same shirt in both shots... I don't think she was in the jungle in an alternate timeline or whatever.

How can the changing something in the present change something in the past? This isn't exactly like stepping on a butterfly back in the dinosaur age. Even if Desmond saved Charlie, how does that retrospectively prevent whoever it was from getting into the helicopter however many hours before?

I don't recall if we know what Penny does for a living but I don't think she'd be the one to parachute over the island - I do think she'd pay for someone to parachute over the island. Desmond thought he would be reunited with Penny if he recreated the vision and the way the ep played out, it did feel like in saving Charlie, it changed who the parachutist was. She knew his name, however, so hopefully next week we'll learn if she's a friend or a paid rescuer.

How can the changing something in the present change something in the past? This isn't exactly like stepping on a butterfly back in the dinosaur age. Even if Desmond saved Charlie, how does that retrospectively prevent whoever it was from getting into the helicopter however many hours before?

Ever heard of Schrödinger's cat? :)

I don't think it ever was Penny. Desmond told Charlie that reality didn't happen exactly the way his visions happened. I think he thought it was Penny because he really wanted it to be her.

Whatever. Smokey can be whomever. Didn't it rain?

Ever heard of Schrödinger's cat? :)
:undecide: ...........

Also, since when does "things not being exactly the same" prevent anything? Desmond is constantly having to "save" Charlie from Death, and yet it still follows him around mercilessly. Why then, would a simple change in travel party alter the arrival of (an assumed) Penny? It should also be if everything changes, she will still arrive. Just like Death.

Thanks to Sarah Mai for the screencap: http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?i...uence01zv9.jpg That's the one I'm talking about, the one from the first vision.

And here's the one from Flashes BEfore Your Eyes: http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1250-675.html

I agree -- same shot, basically.

So, John Burger, sorry I don't have your photographic memory -- and I certainly don't see a park bench in either photo. You really think it was inappropriate for me to post this in the first place??? I still say it's inconsistent with the vision, and odd....

In context, it looks just like a park bench to me. By the way, I don't think it was inappropriate for you to have started the thread. But I do disagree with your ultimate conclusion. And, if you wanted to avoid controversy, you could have said, "Penny MAY HAVE BEEN the parachutist in Desmond's Vision." But that's a minor quibble as this is a "discussion board." Looks to me, however, like that's the breakup shot from FBYE. It is out of context in the reset of his "vision." But, I don't think there is any on-screen evidence that Penny was to be on the Island until Des saved Charlie. Not yet, anyway. I'm pretty sure TPTB wanted to leave us guessing as to who would be in the jumpsuit throughout the episode, which is why they flashed the scene with Des and Penny.

I'm probably going crazy but I thought I saw a toilet behind them in this shot

http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sequence01zv9.jpg

:confused:
It's definitely a toilet! Definitive pictorial evidence: http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=paulord9.jpg

In context, it looks just like a park bench to me. By the way, I don't think it was inappropriate for you to have started the thread. But I do disagree with your ultimate conclusion. And, if you wanted to avoid controversy, you could have said, "Penny MAY HAVE BEEN the parachutist in Desmond's Vision." But that's a minor quibble as this is a "discussion board." Looks to me, however, like that's the breakup shot from FBYE. It is out of context in the reset of his "vision." But, I don't think there is any on-screen evidence that Penny was to be on the Island until Des saved Charlie. Not yet, anyway. I'm pretty sure TPTB wanted to leave us guessing as to who would be in the jumpsuit throughout the episode, which is why they flashed the scene with Des and Penny.

Point taken. (Although I still don't see the park bench).

But, why is the shot of Penny and Desmond in there at all, given that it's a long "vision" and everything else is something that's going to happen in the future?

Aren't we to believe Desmond "saw" that image? And that that's why he was so convinced it was Penny parachuting onto the island? Otherwise all he saw was a parachute, someone in a suit, and an image of what he would have believed was his picture.

While I'm no longer arguing that Penny was necessarily the parachutist, doesn't it stand to reason that he was meant to believe she was?

Why was Desmond SO sure it was Penny. Was it because, he actually saw her in his vision after taking off her mask? That's why he was determined to let Charlie die? Or was it just because he saw the picture in his vision?
All this reminds me of that theory posted here sometime ago that perhaps that Penny scene at the end of s2 was actually part of one of his visions right after he turned the key. That's how he knew Penny was looking for him...

Point taken. (Although I still don't see the park bench).

But, why is the shot of Penny and Desmond in there at all, given that it's a long "vision" and everything else is something that's going to happen in the future?

Aren't we to believe Desmond "saw" that image? And that that's why he was so convinced it was Penny parachuting onto the island? Otherwise all he saw was a parachute, someone in a suit, and an image of what he would have believed was his picture.

While I'm no longer arguing that Penny was necessarily the parachutist, doesn't it stand to reason that he was meant to believe she was?

I think one think is clear: Based on his vision, Desmond believed that Penny would be the parachutist. What we learned in the process, I think, is that Desmond's visions are murky. He seems to combine his memories with flashes of the future. It remains to be seen whether, by saving Charlie, Desmond changed the future. I don't think we saw anything last night that answers that question.

I think one think is clear: Based on his vision, Desmond believed that Penny would be the parachutist. What we learned in the process, I think, is that Desmond's visions are murky. He seems to combine his memories with flashes of the future. It remains to be seen whether, by saving Charlie, Desmond changed the future. I don't think we saw anything last night that answers that question.
How could he have changed the "future" when in essence it would really be changing the "past"? The person in the helicopter had already gotten into the helicopter, flown to the island, gotten into some kind of trouble, and ejected by the time Charlie was supposed to die. By saving Charlie, the only way "the future" could change would be for THE PAST to change, and that's impossible.

How could he have changed the "future" when in essence it would really be changing the "past"? The person in the helicopter had already gotten into the helicopter, flown to the island, gotten into some kind of trouble, and ejected by the time Charlie was supposed to die. By saving Charlie, the only way "the future" could change would be for THE PAST to change, and that's impossible.

I agree with you completely. It's not my theory. I've just pointed out that what we saw last night doesn't prove that Penny was the parachutist. If somebody wants to argue that Desmond changed the "future," I'll leave that to them. And they're going to have a tough time for the specific reasons you describe.

Ever heard of Schrödinger's cat? :)

D'oh! You stole my post! That's the first thing I thought of too when people started asking this! Great minds.
100%
By saving Charlie, the only way "the future" could change would be for THE PAST to change, and that's impossible.

Are you on the same island I am?

I spoke too soon.. perhaps it WILL happen, and we'll see that scene before the season ends.



That's what I thought. I didn't think the parachutist could be Penny, but that she will show up on the island a bit later.

Ever heard of Schrödinger's cat? :)

I'm not exactly sure how Quantum Mechanics applies to this example. Observing the cat in the box would interfere with the experiment, not the fact that the cat was a cat or even the cat. Even if you're applying the many worlds interpretation, then there might exist a universe where Desmond may remove the helmet from the parachutist, and one where he does not remove the helmet, but it would still be the same parachutist. Or, am I missing something? It's been a while since I practically applied anything I ever learned about Quantum Mechanics.

I have no doubt Desmond thought Penny was the one who parachuted on to the island. When he found the pack pack with the book and thir picture he thought it even more.,

I'll also bet he now thinks saving Charley changed it on him.

Weird island, anything can happen on it.

My big question now is. Will he refuse to save Charley the next time?
Does he now think that saving Charley is altering to much of the future and possibly stopping the from being rescued?

I'm not too sure that by saving Charlie it changed the outcome of who was in the helicopter. I'm not sold on that theory just yet.

In Desmond's "flashes" though, he does still say "I'm sorry Penny" as he does at the end of the episode. If it was Penny in the flashes maybe he finds her dead? Or maybe he's just apologizing for being a moron and leaving her in the first place?

I noticed this same thing when I watched this epi for the first time. As soon as Desmond's first flashes were shown, I rewound and played them in slo-mo. Penny was definitely in this flash sequence. I thought that it meant that Penny would be on the island, since all the rest of the flashes had to do with something occurring on the island.

Of course, I guess it's still possible that it was a flash of Penny on the island, but that event won't happen for a very long time. Maybe all the rest of the flashes were events that were going to happen in the near future, but this one with Penny is something that will happen months/years from now.

I seriously don't think Penny was ever to be the parachutist. I think Desmond really wanted her to be that person. I do think Penny has something to do with the parachutist though. Penny paid her to do it.

I don't buy this theory.

I think the whole point of Desmond's vision and what subsequently happened was that Smokey was testing him - just as it did with Mr. Eko. Think about it:

* Desmond is convinced he will have to let someone die as a sacrifice - more than that, he will in fact MURDER someone, because he will actually knowingly lead someone into their death - in order to fulfill his own personal desire.

* At the last second he saves Charlie's life.

Compare that to this scene from "Cost of Living" (I've included an excerpt of the online transcript from Lostpedia (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/S3E05_-_The_Cost_of_Living_Transcript)):


EKO: Yemi! You say you want to hear my confession! Why? Why now, eh? Show yourself! Where are you! Where!
[Yemi appears across from Eko in a field of waist-high plants with red flowers. Eko walks over to him.]
YEMI: Are you ready, Eko?
EKO: Yes. I am ready, Yemi.
[Eko pulls out the cross and raises it. Yemi reaches out to caress it but does not take it.]
EKO: I ask for no forgiveness, Father. For I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive.
[Yemi lets his hand fall from the cross and Eko lowers it.]
EKO: A small boy once asked me if I was a bad man. If I could answer him now, I would tell him that... when I was a young boy, I killed a man to save my brother's life. I am not sorry for this. I am proud of this!
[Eko drops to his knees in front of Yemi and spreads his arms out.]
EKO: I did not ask for the life that I was given. But it was given, nonetheless. And with it... I did my best.
[Yemi stares down into Eko's eyes. He looks angry.]
YEMI: [Almost in disgust] You speak to me as if I were your brother.
[Eko cringes back from him, scared and angry.]
EKO: Who are you?
[Yemi turns without answering, and walks away toward the jungle tree line. Eko stands.]


A moment later Smokey shows up and kills Eko.

So, instead of admitting his guilt and feeling remorse for killing someone, Eko rejects the opportunity (which is actually a test) to confess his sin of murder to his brother's image. As a result:

* Eko killed someone to achieve his own ends.

* He did not feel remorse for having done so.

And that was it. He failed the test. So Smokey took him out...

So in last night's episode, THIS was the whole point to the sequence of events - Desmond's vision was given to him by Smokey/The Island as a way to test him, not as some plot twist where he magically changes or warps reality in the last second, like some sort of bizarre Schrödinger's cat Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger's_cat)...

...in my opinion, of course... ;)

Yep a match.
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u242/avi3000/untitled-1.jpg

That's what I thought. I didn't think the parachutist could be Penny, but that she will show up on the island a bit later.

I was thinking the same thing... it is still possible that it could happen, and the "chain of events" isn't quite complete yet. And then that tiolet in teh jungle would be the toilet from the blown up hatch. :biggrin:

I think in Desmond's vision he saw the picture of him and Penny. He knew it meant something as he had his own picture folded in his pocket, but the picture he saw in the vision was not. It made him think of when he got the picture which reinforced in him the idea that if he lets the sequence go forward, he would see Penny.

When he saw the heli crash he was devastated as he thought she was dead, then saw the lights in the sky like his vision and that made him think again it was Penny. Then when they found the book with the other picture of him, he was sure that Penny was who he saw in the vision.

All these assumptions over seeing a picture by him. But explains why flashes of Penny were in the "vision"

Also may I point out that TPTB changed the background color to green on purpose so everyone would think that Penny was on the island. I have to say I didn't catch it, and never thought she was there and that it was a flash to that other scene. But it shows the level of deception that they are willing to go to....

How could he have changed the "future" when in essence it would really be changing the "past"? The person in the helicopter had already gotten into the helicopter, flown to the island, gotten into some kind of trouble, and ejected by the time Charlie was supposed to die. By saving Charlie, the only way "the future" could change would be for THE PAST to change, and that's impossible.
"Impossible" isn't a word I typically associate with this show. :biggrin:

In all seriousness, here's how it's possible. The Island, as a force of nature, exists outside of linear time and is able to affect past, present and future causalities in order to alter timelines to grant the conscious or subconscious desires of those who are faithful to it. This episode was a test of the Island for Desmond-- what would he be willing to sacrifice for his desire?

Think of Eko as a parallel example. Eko was granted a chance to come to peace with his brother when he found the beechcraft on the Island, giving him the chance for penance. Obviously the beechcraft ended up on the Island for Eko's sake, but it had to have happened long before Eko himself was on the Island. Because the Island exists outside of linear time, it was able to reach into the past and redirect the course of the beechcraft when Eko landed on the Island, thus ensuring that it would be there when Eko needed it to be.

Same with Desmond here. He was being called to trust in the Island, but due to the fact that he has flashes of the future, he chose to alter the course of events in order to save Charlie. By doing that, the reunion with Penny which he was about to be granted was revoked, and the Island reached back in time to change causality, resulting in another woman being the parachutist.

"Impossible" isn't a word I typically associate with this show. :biggrin:

In all seriousness, here's how it's possible. The Island, as a force of nature, exists outside of linear time and is able to affect past, present and future causalities in order to alter timelines to grant the conscious or subconscious desires of those who are faithful to it. This episode was a test of the Island for Desmond-- what would he be willing to sacrifice for his desire?

Think of Eko as a parallel example. Eko was granted a chance to come to peace with his brother when he found the beechcraft on the Island, giving him the chance for penance. Obviously the beechcraft ended up on the Island for Eko's sake, but it had to have happened long before Eko himself was on the Island. Because the Island exists outside of linear time, it was able to reach into the past and redirect the course of the beechcraft when Eko landed on the Island, thus ensuring that it would be there when Eko needed it to be.

Same with Desmond here. He was being called to trust in the Island, but due to the fact that he has flashes of the future, he chose to alter the course of events in order to save Charlie. By doing that, the reunion with Penny which he was about to be granted was revoked, and the Island reached back in time to change causality, resulting in another woman being the parachutist.
Ha, I knew someone would call me on the "impossible." Point taken.

While I appreciate your response, and you taking the time to write this all out, I have to honestly say that I hate this "explanation." It's one thing to expect viewers to accept "time travel" and "The Island, as a force of nature..." if we were given some kind of definition as to what exactly we are supposed to believe. Instead, nothing is ever explained so EVERYTHING is based on viewer assumptions, and personally, I can't accept viewer assumptions as canon. I mean, just because Locke thinks the Island is telling him to do things, doesn't mean that the Island does ANYTHING AT ALL. On the other hand, Locke could be completely right, and The Island is actually alive(!!!). But how are we supposed to know except to make assumptions based only on what we see the characters themselves believing?

You explanation would be OK if we knew for sure that The Island worked in this way, but for all we know, Locke could just be crazy! Desmond as a person should have at least considered that, at the very least, the "person" arriving wouldn't change or cease to exist if Charlie survived, even if he had doubts.

Screw all of this time travel/seeing the future stuff. I'm just going to go with Penny sent the scout in with the picture as proof to Desmond that she knows where he is. Yes it is simple but it works. I'm wondering if penny is standing by on an aircraft carrier somewhere near the islands protective "shield".

Screw all of this time travel/seeing the future stuff. I'm just going to go with Penny sent the scout in with the picture as proof to Desmond that she knows where he is. Yes it is simple but it works. I'm wondering if penny is standing by on an aircraft carrier somewhere near the islands protective "shield".

Nitpick.

They may be on a large yacht that can land a helicoptor, but I'm guess an actual aircraft carrier is beyond even the Widmore family resources. There are only 25 aircraft carriers on earth, and they are all owned by countries.

Screw all of this time travel/seeing the future stuff. I'm just going to go with Penny sent the scout in with the picture as proof to Desmond that she knows where he is. Yes it is simple but it works. I'm wondering if penny is standing by on an aircraft carrier somewhere near the islands protective "shield".

I love your reasoning......I mean in all honesty, Penny doesn't seem the type to go jumping out of a helicopter.....she's got enough money to get someone else to do that for her.....Desmond didn't change the future, he lived it out exactly as he was tested to do so.....

jobe?

How can the changing something in the present change something in the past? This isn't exactly like stepping on a butterfly back in the dinosaur age. Even if Desmond saved Charlie, how does that retrospectively prevent whoever it was from getting into the helicopter however many hours before?Perhaps there were two people in the helicopter. Remember the scene just after the arrow incident, when Jin (?) thinks the beacon landed one direction and Desmond thinks it landed in the other?

Jin is the one who found the parachutist in the tree. But only because Charlie, now alive, insisted he go with Desmond instead of Jin. Perhaps if Jin had gone with Desmond, they would have found the second parachutist. Penny?

Not sure I buy this either.

Perhaps there were two people in the helicopter. Remember the scene just after the arrow incident, when Jin (?) thinks the beacon landed one direction and Desmond thinks it landed in the other?

Jin is the one who found the parachutist in the tree. But only because Charlie, now alive, insisted he go with Desmond instead of Jin. Perhaps if Jin had gone with Desmond, they would have found the second parachutist. Penny?

Not sure I buy this either.

That would actually be a pretty good fake out, and a very elegant solution to the "how could Desmond change the future" problem. Nicely put!

Perhaps there were two people in the helicopter. Remember the scene just after the arrow incident, when Jin (?) thinks the beacon landed one direction and Desmond thinks it landed in the other?

Jin is the one who found the parachutist in the tree. But only because Charlie, now alive, insisted he go with Desmond instead of Jin. Perhaps if Jin had gone with Desmond, they would have found the second parachutist. Penny?

Not sure I buy this either.
Well, I buy THIS more than some of the other stuff being use as "explanations"!

I think in Desmond's vision he saw the picture of him and Penny. He knew it meant something as he had his own picture folded in his pocket, but the picture he saw in the vision was not. It made him think of when he got the picture which reinforced in him the idea that if he lets the sequence go forward, he would see Penny.

When he saw the heli crash he was devastated as he thought she was dead, then saw the lights in the sky like his vision and that made him think again it was Penny. Then when they found the book with the other picture of him, he was sure that Penny was who he saw in the vision.

All these assumptions over seeing a picture by him. But explains why flashes of Penny were in the "vision"

Also may I point out that TPTB changed the background color to green on purpose so everyone would think that Penny was on the island. I have to say I didn't catch it, and never thought she was there and that it was a flash to that other scene. But it shows the level of deception that they are willing to go to....

Thats right.

What people are not putting together is he saw the picture in his vision which caused memories of penny. It was never penny ..it someone sent by Penny who had the picture.

About the color....I disagree the background was changed...*ALL the flashes except the first one had their color skewed to show the viewers they were flashes. Its done all the time in movies with memories(blurry, color changed, more shadows)

if the episode "Flashes" was fresh in your mind there was no question that whole sequence was lifted from it. They showed the pose, the flash of the camera, the picture, and then when desmond tells Penny he cant be with her and she calls him a coward. Thats what that flash was reminding us of--as him being a coward was, once again, the theme. The picture of her crying with the park bench in the background is right when she calls him a coward.

Hey all, First time poster, long time lurker here. I just need to say that i believe what needs to be considered is the pack they found BEFORE Des saved Charlie, and i think we will find out from the parachute girl that she has no knowledge of it nor ever seen it, due to Des saving Charlie and altering the future. That is why we heard that the picture should not exist as we read in the spoilers section.

just my two cents

robout

if the episode "Flashes" was fresh in your mind there was no question that whole sequence was lifted from it. They showed the pose, the flash of the camera, the picture, and then when desmond tells Penny he cant be with her and she calls him a coward. Thats what that flash was reminding us of--as him being a coward was, once again, the theme. The picture of her crying with the park bench in the background is right when she calls him a coward.

You're thinking of the wrong sequence. In the first vision, there is no flash of a camera. The picture is shown earlier in the sequence. And the sequence of Penny calling him a coward is not there at all. All we see is a quick flash of the image of Penny, that's it.

You're thinking of the sequence when Des is clearly remembering Penny, when Hurley asks him about her on the beach. That's later in the episode.

Ok, here goes... Did anyone else notice that Desmond's flashback was in reverse? All the events he "saw" were in the opposite order of the way they actually happened. Maybe this is done to tell us that whatever Desmond does NOW changes the PAST. If he changes the outcome of an event (Charlie dying) that occured first in his vision, the events that follow sequentially in his vision will be changed in accordance with the order in which he saw them (Penny being the parachutist)...

Take a closer look at what des is wearing. IT looks like a brown pladeish shirt or jacket vs a dark gray blue shirt he is wearing inthe jungle withthe guys.

SPOILER ALERT (So cover your eyes if you don't wanna know):

The woman who fell from the sky is named "Naomi". Just read a lengthy article on her.
100%
I didn't think it was a secret...Articles are already circulating in major newpapers about Naomi (it's not Penny).
100%
Articles are already circulating in major newpapers about Naomi (it's not Penny).

About the color....I disagree the background was changed...*ALL the flashes except the first one had their color skewed to show the viewers they were flashes. Its done all the time in movies with memories(blurry, color changed, more shadows)



Yep. You are 100% correct about this. The color change was not some deceptive move by TPTB to trick us into believing the scene was on the Island.

Yep a match.
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u242/avi3000/untitled-1.jpg


NICE! Thanks!

Just my 2 cents....

The picture of Penny with the "green background" is the same exact screen cap as was show in "Flashes before you eyes" It is a park bench in the background.

But the most telling sign is that Desmond is wearing the plaid scarf in the photo, the same as in "FBYE". He does not have this scarf on the island.

I am pretty sure that the Portugese parachutist is a part of the group that Penny hired the find Desmond. At the end of season two, they saw the electro-magnetic blip on the radar. They called Penny, and she arranged for the parachutist.

Desmond must have been able to explain to Penny what has been happening in one of his many "time travel" experiences. That's how Penny knew to look for the electro-magnetic blast.

I'm also pretty sure that the parachutist is there to give them a message from Desmond, from the past, or from the future.

Penny may have been the parachutist in a previous "flash", but something didn't work out right, and so she has sent someone else in her place.

Desmond has to keep repeating these sequences of events over and over, until he finds the right sequence.. for reasons that have yet been uncovered. The sequences have to be different than the ones before in order to find a different outcome.

Desmond keeps saving Charlie because in his previous flashes, Charlie has died in every one of them. Charlie needs to be alive for a very specific reason with has yet to be determined.

Thread on this at

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=76921

It's definitely a toilet! Definitive pictorial evidence: http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=paulord9.jpg

This is the best posting in this entire thread! How can it have gone without a comment? Thanks for the laugh, Dublin Dilettante.

SPOILER ALERT (So cover your eyes if you don't wanna know):

The woman who fell from the sky is named "(this name is a spoiler until it is told to us in an ep)". Just read a lengthy article on her.
100%
I didn't think it was a secret...Articles are already circulating in major newpapers about (this name is a spoiler until it is told to us in an ep) (it's not Penny).
100%
Articles are already circulating in major newpapers about (this name is a spoiler until it is told to us in an ep) (it's not Penny).

Use the [//spoiler] tags for spoilers.

Re: the quantum cat ... upon viewing the cat, the theory was that two universes would split - one of the researcher viewing dead cat, the other with the researcher viewing live cat. However, the researcher didn't do anything to the cat directly; didn't make a choice as to whether the cat would live or die - NO interference whatsoever.

In this case, if you're arguing that Des saving Charlie split off two universes, one where Charlie dies, and one where Charlie lives, I can go for that. If the choice meant life or death for the person who dropped from the helicopter, I can go for that, too. But that doesn't mean that the choice reversed a past of someone else in the universe we saw (Charlie Lives). Opening the box to view (and thus interact with) the cat doesn't cause the radioactive nucleus to decay or not decay in the past, it's merely an observer interaction.

However - love the explanation that there were two people in that helicopter, because it's true that Jin would have ended up with Des instead of Charlie. That part's a fascinating contemplation. Though, that could mean the end of Penny (she died because they never found her), and I simply don't see that happening here - she's too integral to the story line, IMO.

I didn't see anybody pointing this out yet, but in the beginning of the epi we see the whole sequence of events, then we see Desmond's "flashes" of Hurley finding the cable, the flashing lights, and then there's this scene (http://www.photogallery.longlostlist.net/albums/userpics/22_002.jpg) which shows the feet of the parachuter and Jin and CHARLIE holding the tarp. Charlie was there in Desmond's flashes AFTER the arrow incident. So in other words, Desmond had already saved Charlie's life. Either he chose to forget about it, or he thought he could recreate it and NOT save his life (which he couldn't do) to see if the parachuter would turn out to be Penny? Whatever the scenario turns out to be, Charlie is clearly alive in Desmond's flashes after the arrow incident.

There has to be something happening when Desmond saves Charlie. This I believe. His flashback in the ep about his old old fiance is telling, it's almost like we're still to know that he meets Penny, that they get together. Desmond's getting himself to a monkery (Hamlet reference) is pretty telling -- we see that he can make small (relatively) commitments like the vow of silence, pushing the button, but he can't overcome his fear of commiting to a person, which could be a metaphor for humanity, or commiting to marriage, which could be a metaphor for a lifelong commitment. We found out from the Ring lady that he is supposed to, or fated to, turning the key, which he does in Penny's name. Ring lady is in the picture at the monkery with the monk that fires him, almost like he fires him because he's been told to?? Maybe. Told to have him help her load the wine...without Penny, the key wouldn't have gotten turned. Penny may not be looking for Des to meet up with him at all, but she may know her place in the journey to Desmond turning the key. She might not be looking for him, just looking for the anomaly.

I don't know what this parachuter has to do with it, before she said "Desmond" I thought maybe she was Jennifer, Henry Gales wife. Still, I don't think that anyone that is LOOKING for the island can find it. Remember Ben? "Not even God can see this Island." Of course, we'll see. Desmond's obsessed with Penny because he's obsessed with not being a coward, but we see that his cowardice has overtaken him yet again when he fails to let Charlie die.

However - love the explanation that there were two people in that helicopter, because it's true that Jin would have ended up with Des instead of Charlie. That part's a fascinating contemplation. Though, that could mean the end of Penny...Not if the Others find her first!

But I suppose if She Who Must Not Be Named survives, we will know soon enough...

Yep a match.
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u242/avi3000/untitled-1.jpg

So, for those who were having just as difficult a time interpreting what Avi's curt message is saying, the "match" is between two separate screenshots taken from two separate episodes. One of the screenshots is from the scene in "Flashes Before Your Eyes (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=85717&fullsize=1)" where Desmond is telling Penny that he can no longer see her. The second screenshot is taken from "Catch-22" from Desmond's vision. As you can see, they are indeed the same shot, which proves that Desmond's vision of Penny's face was not proof that he was going to find HER, per se, rather that he was going to find something connected with her, as he did... This further disproves the theory that Desmond's saving Charlie's life altered reality. It also disproves that Penny was going to be the parachutist.

So, for those who were having just as difficult a time interpreting what Avi's curt message is saying, the "match" is between two separate screenshots taken from two separate episodes. One of the screenshots is from the scene in "Flashes Before Your Eyes (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=85717&fullsize=1)" where Desmond is telling Penny that he can no longer see her. The second screenshot is taken from "Catch-22" from Desmond's vision. As you can see, they are indeed the same shot, which proves that Desmond's vision of Penny's face was not proof that he was going to find HER, per se, rather that he was going to find something connected with her, as he did... This further disproves the theory that Desmond's saving Charlie's life altered reality. It also disproves that Penny was going to be the parachutist.

Whoa...slow down.

I started this thread on what I realize now was a false pretense -- that the split-second shot of Penny was meant to be on-island. This premise was based on the fact that nothing else in the entirety of that particular vision of Desmond's was off-island -- every image was from the "future" as it played out over the episode. I think it was reasonable to assume, without knowing more, that Penny was on the island in his vision. But certainly I jumped to a conclusion, for which: mea maxima culpa.

Anyway, folks thought that the image was from the Desmond/Penny scene in London, so I double-checked and posted the image from that scene about 50 posts ago (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1502618&postcount=22) and conceded the fact that these were basically the same shots. I think Avi's recent post with both images side-by-side was just intended as further confirmation for anyone who still had any doubts.

But the fact that I started the thread with a false pretense which has been debunked does NOT prove that Desmond didn't alter time, or that Penny was going to be the parachutist. It only proves that the image of Penny was not one of her on the island.

As an aside, I tend to agree that Des couldn't really change the future in the way he thought -- that somehow by making a different choice now, he could alter the past and thus change the present reality. That would mean that every choice Des made could have untold consequences for all reality, which doesn't make sense. I can live with Des going back in the past and thus changing the future, but not doing so without traveling into the past at all. But these are just my beliefs based on the clues we've seen -- certainly Des himself thought he could change his present reality -- not a "fact" based on blowing away a straw man. We're going to have to see more real "evidence" on the show to know for sure.

But these are just my beliefs based on the clues we've seen -- certainly Des himself thought he could change his present reality -- not a "fact" based on blowing away a straw man. We're going to have to see more real "evidence" on the show to know for sure.

Yeah, dang, I just re-read my post, and I apologize for the tone of it. It comes off as being written by someone who was upset and jumping to hasty conclusions, which I am not sure why I wrote it that way, but such was not my intent, nor did it accurately reflect my mood at the time I was writing it. I'm not sure what was up with how that turned out the way it did, but the last thing I wanted to convey was a sense of being displeased about anything. Sorry folks, don't know why that came out that way...:redface:

Yeah, dang, I just re-read my post, and I apologize for the tone of it. It comes off as being written by someone who was upset and jumping to hasty conclusions, which I am not sure why I wrote it that way, but such was not my intent, nor did it accurately reflect my mood at the time I was writing it. I'm not sure what was up with how that turned out the way it did, but the last thing I wanted to convey was a sense of being displeased about anything. Sorry folks, don't know why that came out that way...:redface:

No offense taken on my end . . . I just would hate to have my own haste to reach a conclusion early on lead anyone to think that something's been proven that actually hasn't!

So, for those who were having just as difficult a time interpreting what Avi's curt message is saying, the "match" is between two separate screenshots taken from two separate episodes. One of the screenshots is from the scene in "Flashes Before Your Eyes (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=85717&fullsize=1)" where Desmond is telling Penny that he can no longer see her. The second screenshot is taken from "Catch-22" from Desmond's vision. As you can see, they are indeed the same shot, which proves that Desmond's vision of Penny's face was not proof that he was going to find HER, per se, rather that he was going to find something connected with her, as he did... This further disproves the theory that Desmond's saving Charlie's life altered reality. It also disproves that Penny was going to be the parachutist.

Furthermore, if saving Charlie was going to change anything, then why would Penny have a copy of the Portuguese version of Catch-22 in her bag, which was found long before the Charlie death scene? Why would Penny risk her life to jump into what is absolutely uncertain terrain where Desmond may not even be, when she can pay someone else who is trained to do it? All evidence points to the fact that Desmond was wrong and it was never going to be Penny.

Furthermore, if saving Charlie was going to change anything, then why would Penny have a copy of the Portuguese version of Catch-22 in her bag, which was found long before the Charlie death scene? Why would Penny risk her life to jump into what is absolutely uncertain terrain where Desmond may not even be, when she can pay someone else who is trained to do it? All evidence points to the fact that Desmond was wrong and it was never going to be Penny.

Yep. That book issue is tough to dispute.

Perhaps there were two people in the helicopter. Remember the scene just after the arrow incident, when Jin (?) thinks the beacon landed one direction and Desmond thinks it landed in the other?


Yeah, this is something I posted this a.m. asking if anyone thought there could have been two people. (No response.) What made me think of this was next weeks preview....I watched again last night in slo-mo. It shows:

Des running through the jungle who actually has a, IMO, "hopeful" look on his face. There's another flash showing Jin running through the jungle also. Maybe the parachutist told them to look for someone else who jumped. ???