Desmond relates a story to Ruth about how he was drinking, looked up and asked if he was doing the right thing, and then the next thing he knew he was waking up with a man with a rope around his waist standing over him saying, can I help you, brother.

Lots and lots to work with here. First, did he really just pass out, or did something happen to him? Second, remember that Locke "saved" Desmond by coming down into the hatch with a rope around his waist -- given the appearance of the jewelry lady in the monk's photo, and this clear reference to Locke, I wonder if Desmond's flashbacks are now being tampered with. And Des says something very similar to "can I help you, brother" to Jack when Jack trips in the stadium.

Then Ruth says to Desmond something about what would have happened if it had been a shepherd who helped Desmond, would Des be back with all the other sheep now?

You can't help draw the connection with the Shephard family, Jack and Christian. Are the sheep the Losties, or maybe the Others if Christian is somehow behind some of what's gone on on the island.

Then Ruth says to Desmond something about what would have happened if it had been a shepherd who helped Desmond, would Des be back with all the other sheep now?

You can't help draw the connection with the Shephard family, Jack and Christian. .

Ah, so.
I'm not sure what the Shephard parallel meant but I caught it too,
Another one of those lovely parallels that reminds me why I love Lost so much..

along with the band-aid on the nose, a la Sawyer's bandaid in Long Con.

along with the band-aid on the nose, a la Sawyer's bandaid in Long Con.

Nice catch -- I knew there had been a bandaid, but couldn't remember where.

I still think the "rope around his waist" connection with Locke is the most amazing. The writers do nice work, here.

... the next thing he knew he was waking up with a man with a rope around his waist standing over him saying, can I help you, brother.

remember that Locke "saved" Desmond by coming down into the hatch with a rope around his waist

I thought about that, too.

But I didn't get as far as you did.

Then Ruth says to Desmond something about what would have happened if it had been a shepherd who helped Desmond...?

You can't help draw the connection with the Shephard family, Jack and Christian.

The signs were there, he just misread them. Maybe like the psychic telling Claire that Aaron couldn't be raised by another, or was it an other? Or like all of us on the boards. We're seeing the right clues, just misinterpreting them?

I haven't wanted to buy into the idea of Desmond being destined to be on the island, but you're post has my mind spinning.

The signs were there, he just misread them. Maybe like the psychic telling Claire that Aaron couldn't be raised by another, or was it an other? Or like all of us on the boards. We're seeing the right clues, just misinterpreting them?

I haven't wanted to buy into the idea of Desmond being destined to be on the island, but you're post has my mind spinning.

I think it's very hard to distinguish metaphors and intentional referential moments on this show from things that are supposed to be "factual" connections within the framework of the show. Are Des' memories/visions becoming so jumbled that he's mixing the Locke salvation with the salvation by the monk? Or are they just metaphorically the same. I lean towards the latter, although I do think that Ruth's line about Des choosing to follow a Shephard will prove important -- maybe he will face a choice in the future about following Jack or following someone else. And by disdaining the "sheep", does this set Des up to go against Jack?

Perhaps it's that my mind doesn't work like that, but it seems to me you're reaching here. Rope around the waist is an "obvious" connection to Lock? There are alot of sheep/shepherds in Scotland. Is it possible that any occupational reference would have conclusions drawn about it? TPTB may have intended this, as you suggest, but is it possible we fans are in overanalysis psychosis?

Just a thought

Perhaps it's that my mind doesn't work like that, but it seems to me you're reaching here. Rope around the waist is an "obvious" connection to Lock? There are alot of sheep/shepherds in Scotland. Is it possible that any occupational reference would have conclusions drawn about it? TPTB may have intended this, as you suggest, but is it possible we fans are in overanalysis psychosis?

Just a thought

I guess I think it was pretty deliberate. If she had said accountant, lawyer, forklift operator, witch doctor, lumberjack....no, I don't think there would be any parallels. But when she said the word shepherd -- which to me seemed like a pretty odd thing to say -- it jumped out because of Jack's name. Plus there's the whole religious symbolism with "Christian Shephard", etc.

And I thought Desmond mentioning the rope around the waist also stuck out a little, too. The fact that Locke slid down into the hatch with a rope around his waist and had "saved" Desmond as well . . . that seems like too close a parallel for me. He could have said he saw the bible in the monk's hand, or a crucifix around his neck, and while we've seen those elements on Lost (with Eko, especially), it would not have stood out for me. But as I've been thinking about it, I can't remember if we actually saw John go down with a rope around his waist -- I know Kate did, but I can't remember how John got down there! So I'm willing to concede this is more of a stretch!

But like with any metaphors or allusions, if they don't strike you as interesting or important, I don't think they'd affect your enjoyment of the show. I tend to like looking for them, becuase I think it's the sign of thoughtful writing -- these writers actually spend time writing the dialogue, which is very refreshing for a tv show!

is it possible we fans are in overanalysis psychosis?

Just a thought


I think based on how many boards and blogs exist around Lost, the answer to that question would be yes. ;)


But Tramp put it nicely. But like with any metaphors or allusions, if they don't strike you as interesting or important, I don't think they'd affect your enjoyment of the show.

And Tramp, I'm with you on this point, too.

Are Des' memories/visions becoming so jumbled that he's mixing the Locke salvation with the salvation by the monk? Or are they just metaphorically the same. I lean towards the latter

I was just tickled to see someone else mention the rope, Locke, the hatch. I've caught a lot of these metaphors along the way but never mention them because, in the end, they probably don't carry much significance. I don't have HDTV or a DVR, so that sort of dialogue is my easter egg. And I love it! This show is incredibly multilayered.

See the thread is there potentially more evidence of time loop for more info on this.

I think that Des is "THE SHEPHERD" that brought the losties to the Island. We know he had contact with Charlie, Libby,and Jack and since he was in Australia and the U.S. he could have had contact with more of the losties. He was in the military so he could have had contact with Sayid. I don't think that he knows what he is doing but I do think that someone is behind it, I'm leaning towards Mr. Widmore, because we know that his company is interested in fertility as shown in all of the pregnacy tests used in the show. Desmond, by contacting certain people brings them to the island through his time loops.

Ah, you know the writers couldn't resist throwing in some sort of dumb joke about Scots and sheep... I personally have in my everyday joke repertoire at least 50 Scots and Sheep jokes, and I know there are many more than that in existence! :rolleyes: However, I only know one or two that would be repeatible here in the Lage...

I'm ashamed to admit that I didn't make this connection, when Ruth said it was a good thig he hdn't been found by a shepherd. Excellent catch!!

well,

he did meet jack AFTER becomeing a monk, and it sounds like the monks ended everything with brother. It is not a stretch to have him use that from then on.

I agree that the rope-around-the waist thing is kind of a stretch, but I still think you're on to something here. The connection that seemed obvious to me is that, in a sense, the monk was a shepard. The fact that he was in a photo with Ms. Hawking tells us that brother Campbell was "in on it" and was steering Desmond's life in the proper direction.

but is it possible we fans are in overanalysis psychosis?

Just a thought
or what if he was found by a shepherd a Dr Shepherd.....lol

I don't think the reference was insignificant. There were three things in Catch that caught my attention, mostly in Des' flashback:

Des claims that he was on his back, didn't know how he got there, and when he opened his eyes he followed the first thing he saw. (We've seen this act out on Lost with different characters -- Kate, Jack, etc.)

Ruth retorts that is was a good thing that Des didn't see a shepherd, or else he'd be herding sheep.

Brother Campbell (Joeseph Campbell, anyone?) has the picture of ring lady on the desk.

I think an avid fan of LOST could come to many different conclusions concerning what this all means. I find the biggest connections are with shepherd, and sheep. There are of course, Jack and Christian Shepherd -- Jack wouldn't be on the island it if weren't for his father, and of course, Jack is the "leader" of the beach dwellers (mostly). You can take the reference back to Jacob, who was a shepherd, and on the island, the others are his flock. If you look at the island as a platform for the playing out of good and evil, it might be good that Desmond didn't see a "shepherd" when he came to the island -- an other, or Jacob. All of the elements that seem to be guiding Desmond's path are keeping him on the side of "good." I think the island does pose as some place for salvation, and the others are exploiting the powers of the island, while the survivors are looking for opportunities to do "good."

I'm not hardcore about this theory, and Desmond's flashback and his part in the saga is probably the most confusing of all. I'm always struck by how he really doesn't want to accept that he's meant for a certain purpose, and that he gets drunk to avoid suffering, that he thinks that he will get Penny back after he's said good bye to her...he's such a tortured character.

You can't help draw the connection with the Shephard family, Jack and Christian. Are the sheep the Losties, or maybe the Others if Christian is somehow behind some of what's gone on on the island.

4/20 podcast
Carlton Cuse: "Christian Shepherd is dead!"

I think that wraps the speculation about Christian having anything to do with this

If shepherding weren't so common a proffession in Scotland, I'd be more prone to agree. As monks are probably rather common in a town close to a monastery.

Tramp wrote:

But like with any metaphors or allusions, if they don't strike you as interesting or important, I don't think they'd affect your enjoyment of the show. I tend to like looking for them, becuase I think it's the sign of thoughtful writing --

Or are you expecting it to be thoughtful writing, therefore you see signs. Humans have a tendency to see what they are looking for after all. Perception is more real than reality.

Of course you may be right.;)

I guess I think it was pretty deliberate. If she had said accountant, lawyer, forklift operator, witch doctor, lumberjack....no, I don't think there would be any parallels. But when she said the word shepherd -- which to me seemed like a pretty odd thing to say...

The Team just returned from Scotland on Easter morning, and let me tell you, there are LOTS of sheep there. We saw them all over the place, and people made reference to them just as much. She's supposed to be Scottish, so I don't find it that much of a stretch to this she would use it as an example.

Still, I see everyone's point about the connection to the doctors, but The Team is inclined to think that it is just a fun little tie-in and that, in this case, there isn't anything more significant in her comment. If there were, doesn't that mean that she has an insight into Desmond's future? We've neer seen this character before and have no reason to believe she has any "power" or is special in any way. She's not likely to recur or turn out to be an Other plant (like Richard). I think it's just writers having a bit of fun and getting us to talk...which worked.

Des claims that he was on his back, didn't know how he got there, and when he opened his eyes he followed the first thing he saw. (We've seen this act out on Lost with different characters -- Kate, Jack, etc.)

Which brings up yet another parallel: Desmond lying on his back in the jungle after the hatch explosion, not knowing how he got there. Runs through the jungle and comes upon the picture of him and Penny. Same photo that he later sees in a flashback and "follows", almost at the cost of Charlie's life...

Sees to me that even if Des isn't literally stuck in a time loop, he's stuck in a loop of his own making: becoming totally disillusioned, then following the next "pure" or "true" or "good" thing that happens to him. First, Ruth. Then, the monk/monastery. Then Penny. Probaby the military next. Then the sailing race. Then the hatch. Then Locke (sort of). And now, his ability to "see" the future. Yet every time, his "faith" has been shattered, so why do I think he's going to have to break the cycle in order to move on? Seems to me that it was likely Penny that really was his true "calling" so maybe he can break the cycle when he gets back to her?

If shepherding weren't so common a profession in Scotland, I'd be more prone to agree. As monks are probably rather common in a town close to a monastery.

Or are you expecting it to be thoughtful writing, therefore you see signs. Humans have a tendency to see what they are looking for after all. Perception is more real than reality.

Well, it's always possible that a writer didn't intend some connection or metaphor -- you certainly can't know for sure until the writer expressly confirms it (or later events in the story confirm it). But here, I thought Ruth was given quite a pointed little monologue for her statements to be totally random. TPTB have told us that names are meaningful on this show, and "Shephard" is the name of one of the major characters (and his father), so I'd be very surprised if this was accidental. It may not turn out to mean much, but it's hard to say at this point.

Listen, I've spent a lot of time in Scotland, so I know how common sheep are in that country -- and I agree that references to shepherds often are jokes. But why can't this have multiple meanings, just like so many other references in the show? Here, I'd say the reference is literally and jokingly to actual shepherds, and metaphorically to the Christian religion and to the concept of following something blindly, and tangentially to our "Shephards" on the show -- although I don't know which one. Could be a reference to following or not following Jack in the future, or to following or not having followed Christian (or his cohorts) in the past.

Still, I see everyone's point about the connection to the doctors, but The Team is inclined to think that it is just a fun little tie-in and that, in this case, there isn't anything more significant in her comment. If there were, doesn't that mean that she has an insight into Desmond's future? We've neer seen this character before and have no reason to believe she has any "power" or is special in any way. She's not likely to recur or turn out to be an Other plant (like Richard). I think it's just writers having a bit of fun and getting us to talk...which worked.

No question that it may be no more than a fun little tie in. There are so many red herrings on this show, I may swear off of fish for life.

But I don't think the fact that we were shown this particular conversation, and that it might happen to have resonance for Desmond later in his life, necessarily means Ruth has insight into his future. This may be more along the lines of classic, symbolic foreshadowing, where the writer intends the connection but the characters don't necessarily intend it. I think there's quite a bit of this going on in Lost.

Of course, when you throw in things like time travel into the mix, it becomes hard to draw the line between foreshadowing and foreknowledge, doesn't it? While I doubt Ruth had any agenda, if we take the jewelry store lady's appearance in that photo as evidence that someone may be tampering with Desmond's memories, all bets are off.