Just wanted to mention a GOOD CATCH that I've noticed. I think the Abraham/Isaac parrallel with the Desmond/Charlie story was first introduced back in 'Tricia Tanaka is Dead' in which Charlie is seen wearing a 'Highway 61' T-shirt. (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1253-29.html)

This is the first verse of Dylans 'Highway 61'.

Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No." Abe say, "What ?"
God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run"
Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done ?"
God says. "Out on Highway 61".

I started a thread about Charlies t-shirt HERE (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=71189) thinking it would be an important signifier of Charlies death prophecy storyline. Now I'm thinking the Isaac reference could in fact be the key to this entire plotline. If Charlies life is willingly offered as a sacrifice then Charlie will be spared just like Isaac was spared...saved by divine intervention, not Desmond (?)

That's a fantastic catch. Seriously, great stuff.

Good catch. I wonder if this has anything to do with Isaac the healer too or if the name Isaac is a reference to the fact that Isaac is the father of Jacob too. Hmm.

I also made the connection that Isaac is Jacob's father. Made me wonder if Aaron wasn't Jacob in some weird timeline fashion.

Also, did you notice the arrow through the throat was similar to the throat slashing of a ritual slaughter?

I agree I think this has to mean that Charlie will live, but the death visions will stop happening only when Desmond STOPS saving him, and divine intervention steps in.


I think this is what will happen in Charlie's next flashback when he insists on repairing the sonar beacon despite Des' protests that he will die. He will do it, get into some trouble, but he'll live and the flashes will stop.

I wonder if this has anything to do with Isaac the healer too or if the name Isaac is a reference to the fact that Isaac is the father of Jacob too. Hmm.

All I can think of is that there are theories that Ben is Jacob and that Ben is connected to Aaron...and Charlie is the surrogate father of Aaron. Thats stretching a little.

This is a great catch, very interesting. I wonder whether Desmond is really being tested. The parallel between his and Abraham's situation adds another level to this situation, it will be interesting to see what Desmond decided to do next time.

Too.many.biblical.names...:confused:

I agree I think this has to mean that Charlie will live, but the death visions will stop happening only when Desmond STOPS saving him, and divine intervention steps in.


I think this is what will happen in Charlie's next flashback when he insists on repairing the sonar beacon despite Des' protests that he will die. He will do it, get into some trouble, but he'll live and the flashes will stop.


Good point, it makes a lot of sense. But couldn't it be argued that that already happened in TTID when he "looked death in the face and said 'whatever'"? Under normal circumstances, that vw shouldn't have started. Then again, since when is this island normal. Just a thought.

Good catch. I wonder if this has anything to do with Isaac the healer too or if the name Isaac is a reference to the fact that Isaac is the father of Jacob too. Hmm.

Jacob is the son of Isaac....And Bob Dylan's son's name is...Jacob! We have come full cirlce. Now someone get the lyrics from 6th Avenue Heartbreak and lets break this thing wide open.

Seriously though thats a good catch. I love that ol Dylan tune. I would have never put that together...

But couldn't it be argued that that already happened in TTID when he "looked death in the face and said 'whatever'"?

I don't think this really counts, as Desmond never had a vision of this happening. Sure it was a risk, but in the sense that this thread is speaking, there was never a "prophecy" that Charlie would die about it. I do like this idea though, that Charlie and Desmond have to accept things for him to be spared. This is Lost afterall, it can't just be as simple (wrong word perhaps? hehe) as the old woman suggested in the previous Desmond-centric episode.

It's highly unlikely these two "clues" would've been thrown in accidentally, but whether they're just there as small easter eggs, or whether they really mean something we'll have to wait and see. The theory is a good one however, and one I much prefer to the thought of Desmond sacrificing himself for Charlie.

Gotta love "Highway 61". Great song.

A biblical reference from the Vozzek Summary at Dark UFO

Could be considered a spoiler theory so...

Ruth and Naomi In ''Catch 22,'' the characters Ruth and Naomi have nothing to do with each other. But in The Bible, they are the stars of the Book of Ruth. Well, it just so happens that the book right before Ruth is the Book of Judges. The very last story in the Book of Judges is the story of a war among the tribes of Israel. The bad guy in this story: the Tribe of Benjamin. The war started over a murder that the other tribes believed needed to be avenged; it ended with the near-obliteration (''The Purge,'' perhaps?) of the Benjaminites. Here's where it gets creepy: In the aftermath, the people of Israel felt badly about wiping out Benjamin's people. So they decided to repopulate his tribe by forcing the women from another city to join the tribe of Benjamin. You know: to make babies and stuff.

What does this foreshadow for Lost? I think it means that war is coming to the beach. Castaways vs. Others. Survival of the species. At long last: Lord of the Flies time, people.

Here's another twist. The name on the bottle, Moriah, as mentioned in the ep, is the mountain God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. Years later this site was where Solomon built the temple, it is a peice of land his father, David, had purchased and prepared.:cool:

This is an absolutely fantastic catch. And we have to give it to the writing and prop staff -- impressive work.

Dylan is just so influential these days in the adventure show department. Anyone remember BSG's Crossroads? ;)

< p >

When I watched the ep I didn't immediately think of Highway 61 ... I thought of Issac being the father of Jacob ... who was the father of Benjamin.
Which do you think is more likely to tie in to the Lost mythology?

Great catch! Sometimes I'm amazed how far ahead the writers are thinking... I have faith in them. :)

When I watched the ep I didn't immediately think of Highway 61 ... I thought of Issac being the father of Jacob ... who was the father of Benjamin.
Which do you think is more likely to tie in to the Lost mythology?

Knowing TPTB, all of it. :)

When I watched the ep I didn't immediately think of Highway 61 ... I thought of Issac being the father of Jacob ... who was the father of Benjamin.
Which do you think is more likely to tie in to the Lost mythology?

that's such an awesome catch!! there's gotta be a reason TPTB are using these names. i refuse to believe its all random. :rolleyes:

Aaron was brother to Moses who led them out of Egypt. Who is the Moses among the Lost people? And who Miriam, the sister whose name means bitter?

Aaron was brother to Moses who led them out of Egypt. Who is the Moses among the Lost people? And who Miriam, the sister whose name means bitter?

kate certainly seemed bitter over jack/juliet last epi :rolleyes:

I love it i definitely agree that a willing sacrifice, on charlies part... probably sacrificing himself to save another will lead to his saving

Reading this thread, and this brilliant theory :) , led to my listening to the song again for the first time in ages. And I started giggling when I re-heard/re-remembered the beginning lyrics to the second stanza:

Well Georgia Sam he had a bloody nose
Welfare Department they wouldn't give him no clothes

Desmond, anyone? Lol Perhaps this explains the mysterious post-hatch explosion/implosion nudity, eh? :biggrin:

Seriously, Captain_Falafel, excellent catch, and extremely plausible, imo! :)

I love it i definitely agree that a willing sacrifice, on charlies part... probably sacrificing himself to save another will lead to his saving

I stopped going to church many, many years ago, so most of my familiarity with the Bible is through Sunday school stories. My husband, on the other hand, is quite devout. He was talking to me not too long ago about the Abraham-Isaac sacrifice story and set me straight on a long-held misconception I had about the story.

I always assumed that Isaac was quite young when this happened. My husband told me that Isaac would have been a teen at least and that his faith in his father was being tested as much as Abraham's faith in God. (I know, I know ... I'm stating the obvious. Sorry.)

Anyway ... I hooked onto these two bits of dialogue:

CHARLIE: You think its her don't you?
DESMOND: Who?
CHARLIE: Your girl. Penny. You think its actually her who bailed out the helicopter.
DESMOND: Earlier I hoped it. Now I know it.
CHARLIE: Why didn't you tell us?
DESMOND: Would you come if I had?
CHARLIE: Of course. Why wouldn't I?
DESMOND: I didn't wanna tell you because, I didn't want anything to change.
CHARLIE: Fair enough. Look if whatever you're seeing leads to your girl getting us rescued, why would we want to change anything, right?
DESMOND: [Smiles] Right.

DESMOND: If the flashes don't happen exactly how I saw them, the picture changes. I was supposed to let you die Charlie.
CHARLIE: What's that supposed to mean?
DESMOND: It means its bloody pointless. I keep saving your life, and what good has it done? Its just gonna keep happening again and again, maybe that's the point eh? Maybe its a test.
CHARLIE: Test?
DESMOND: Like God, testing Abraham, except I failed, because I changed what I saw.
Charlie's question "why would we want to change anything," is a tough one. If you are the one meant to die ... would you tag along? Plus, it is the question Charlie has not been given the opportunity to answer.

And what exactly did Desmond sacrifice by saving Charlie? Does he think that if he hadn't saved Charlie it would have been Penny who fell from the sky? If so, that's selfish. Makes me think back to the Boone-Locke-airport dream sequence when Boone said Desmond was looking out for himself. IMO, he set off on that trek willing to sacrifice Charlie so he could be reunited with his gal, not so he could ensure rescue for everyone.

So maybe Desmond did fail his test by changing the course of events. Maybe not. Had Charlie died on that trek, would Jin and Hurley continued on to help get the parachutist out of the tree? Maybe Desmond had to save Charlie because Charlie has a bigger role to play.

Back to Abraham-Isaac parallel: Both were tested. If Desmond is Abraham, Charlie is Isaac. But for it to work, Charlie has to be aware of his active role in the test. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking this way, but the Abraham-Isaac story scared me as a kid because I thought Isaac was a boy. I equated that scenario with murder. Once I learned that Isaac was at least a young man, it did become a story of sacrifice. I think that if a human is to be sacrificed, they have to be a willing participant; otherwise, it's murder. Isaac could have fought Abraham, but he didn't; he, too, made a choice.

So far in the Desmod-Charlie story, only Desmond has been the active participant, and Charlie has not been given a choice. Once Charlie is allowed to willingly make himself a sacrifice for The Greater Good the storyline will play out.


In short, I agree with the good Captain:
If Charlies life is willingly offered as a sacrifice then Charlie will be spared just like Isaac was spared...saved by divine intervention, not Desmond (?)


I just took the l ... o ... n ... g way in explaining why. Thanks for bearing with me.

And kudos to you for making the connection with the T-shirt. BRILLIANT!

Keeping my fingers crossed for Charlie.

Great connection, but what does it prove other than plagiarism? Ok, so it helps us understand where the writers derived this sub-plot, but doesn't help us understand the main plotline whatsoever.

Charlie will be dead by the end of the season. That I'm sure of.

Great catch!

adr55555, That's a good point about the Abraham/Isaac story. I think Isaac did have a clue that something was up, but he didn't know the full extent until he asked where the sacrifice was. When Abraham answered that he was the sacrifice. Isaac had the faith to allow Abraham to go through with it. I'm sure Isaac could have easily overpowered Abraham who was over a 100 years old.

The difference between that story and what Desmond was recreating was that Isaac was given a heads-up before hand and was allowed to use his free will to go along with it while Charlie was kept in the dark the whole time.

I think that at some point Charlie will be in a perilous situation where Desmond has seen him die, but for some reason desmond will be unable to save charlie - but miracuously charlie will live - he will not die as Desmond had forseen.

This will show that Desmond has prevented the 'course correction' - thereby proving that the Valenzetti equation can be broken. Meaning that the world is not doomed and can be saved.

Back to Abraham-Isaac parallel: Both were tested. If Desmond is Abraham, Charlie is Isaac.

...and by extension, Aaron is Jacob and Ben Linus is Aaron's son -- hence the import of keeping Aaron safe? Imagine claire as Ben's grandma.

It could happen!

Hi,
I want to add that in this story of the Abraham/Issac sacrifice, once Abraham had fully committed to the sacrifice God had compassion and provided a ram as a replacement sacrifice. By fully committed note below in verse 10 that he had bound his son and raised his knife. Blood still had to be spilled in order for the sacrifice to be completed so God provided a ram entangled in the thicket. By fulfilling the sacrifice that God demanded from him there was promise of reward in verse 17 notably taking possession of the cities of your enemies.
Here is the complete story Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied. 2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."
3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you."
6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?"
"Yes, my son?" Abraham replied.
"The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"
8 Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together.
9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.
12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2022#fen-NIV-561a)] caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided."
15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2022#fen-NIV-566b)] all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."
19 Then Abraham returned to his servants, and they set off together for Beersheba. And Abraham stayed in Beersheba.

...and by extension, Aaron is Jacob and Ben Linus is Aaron's son -- hence the import of keeping Aaron safe? Imagine claire as Ben's grandma.

It could happen!

What's even more amusing is the thought of Jack as Ben's great-uncle.

Just imagine the Jackface when he found that out! lol

Darn am I glad we have this thread. When I saw Highway 61 all I thought was oh yeah "The Blues Highway" that makes sense for a musician. I forgot all about Dylan's song :redface:

The difference between that story and what Desmond was recreating was that Isaac was given a heads-up before hand and was allowed to use his free will to go along with it while Charlie was kept in the dark the whole time.

Exactly! So the next time Desmond has a flash that involves Charlie potentially dying for a greater cause, he needs to be upfront with him. Charlie gets to use his free will and the parallels will be better drawn.

Charlie needs a chance to give an honest answer to this question:

CHARLIE: Look if whatever you're seeing leads to your girl getting us rescued, why would we want to change anything, right?



Hi,
I want to add that in this story of the Abraham/Issac sacrifice, once Abraham had fully committed to the sacrifice God had compassion and provided a ram as a replacement sacrifice.

Torched, do you think this will be a factor in the Desmond-Charlie-flashes storyline. Will someone/something else's blood be spilled?

Torched, do you think this will be a factor in the Desmond-Charlie-flashes storyline. Will someone/something else's blood be spilled?

I think the presentation of the story of shows that once Desmond fully commits to sacrificing Charlie, maybe God/Island/Jacob will have compassion and allow a change in the blood offering then they could experience the true outcome (rescue?)