So, this parachutist is the "major character" that TPTB said was top-secret in earlier podcasts.

My question is, was she created to address the following complaints by fans?

1.) Paulo and Nikki - Initially, Paulo was to have some kind of connection to the Portuguese-speaking men in LTDA. Darlton stated that it was not a coincidence that Paulo was Portuguese like the men in the monitoring station. However, as we know, Pikki's story arc was cut short because of the vitriolic fan reaction. Perhaps this woman is a new substitute connection with the monitoring station guys.

2.) Lack of African-American characters on the show - It's true, and while I think it's entirely coincidental based on the various plot lines, all of the major black characters on the show have been killed off, so she may have been introduced (or simply cast by ethnicity) to restore a level of diversity to the cast.

3.) Lack of strong women - people have long complained that the women on the show are too conventional, but the frustration was never higher than when Kate seemed to lose her super-powers and be used as a damsel in distress again and again during mini-arc. We need some more red-blooded, butt-kickin' chicks on this show and we may have just gotten a dose.

This is not a criticism of the new character at all, I just was doing a little thinking and trying to get into the writers' heads a little bit. What do y'all think?

I seriously doubt it. My brother, an avid reader of the spoilers, told me he had put something together he had read several weeks ago: he read that a new character would be introduced who was 1) not a lostie, 2) not an other, and 3) not from Dharma as far as having a prior relationship with the island.
Unless of course the complaining started way before that, I dont see how this character is a creation to cater to the audience.

Well, I don't necessarily mean her entire purpose, but more about the specifics, like the decision to make her an African-American female, which would address 2 and 3. I'm not even saying I agree with those complaints, mind you, but I've certainly heard them.

Also, several weeks ago is certainly long enough for them to have changed their plans for Paulo and Nikki, and to potentially change the significance of this character's role.

I hear you Ben and it makes sense. However, are we sure that the character is African American? The Portugese book might suggest otherwise...

I hear you Ben and it makes sense. However, are we sure that the character is African American? The Portugese book might suggest otherwise...

If you go to Brazil, you will see every type of person. There are caucasian-looking people, Meditarrean (SP?) looking people, African-looking people. Brazil is really a melting pot...just saying

Ive been to Brazil so I can dig what you are saying. Im just trying to be too PC I guess...but out of respect I try to get stuff like that right.

I am not disagreeing that XXXXXX (the parachutist) was written to fill some other characters shoes, but I don't agree with the other two positions.

It seems to me that the show is full of diversity.

Blacks are not the only diversity ethinic group in the world.

The show has- Brits, Scots, Aussies, Koreans, and Hispanics.

The black actors who are no longer on the show left on their own, to pursue other opportunites. The writers had to do SOMETHING with their characters. Tough call. One died, two left.

About the strong women.

Claire is still a pretty tough cookie, she may get the pointy end of the stick from the others but she is not weak.

It is also kind of a twist that you would say Kate was a 'damsel in distress'. The entire time she was in captivity she resisted and appeared to be as equally strong and independant as Sawyer and Jack. Any expression of emotion she had was not unbelievable.

After being on the island for two plus months and being captive and having her only links to her freedom being threatened, I would say it was normal for her to become more emotional than we had previously seen. She has demonstrated that she has great empathy for others she cares about and holds to things from her past pretty strongly. None of that makes her weak.

Juliet is way to evil to be weak. (Opinion)

Just some thoughts and I know the original thread starter was voicing words in the wind and that the message may not have represented their own specific thoughts. My thoughts were in reply to the MASSES whose ideas he/she was sharing.

I dont think they added this character due to any fan reactions. They probably had the plan to introduce her ever since the Penny scene in Live Together, Die Alone.

And I dont totally agree with the lack of strong women arguement. Juliet, initially more conventional, is a pretty strong woman. Kate is also pretty strong, but also has a feminine side.

I am not disagreeing that XXXXXX (the parachutist) was written to fill some other characters shoes, but I don't agree with the other two positions.

It seems to me that the show is full of diversity.

Blacks are not the only diversity ethinic group in the world.

The show has- Brits, Scots, Aussies, Koreans, and Hispanics.

Scots are actually Brits which consist of the English, Welsh and the Scots.

To complicate it further, the UK consists of the above plus Northern Ireland.

About the woman, I hope shes not added to serve up a PC quota of blacks or women but because she was the best person for the part.

Nah, I don't think they would hire someone just because they're black. I think they would do it based on acting abilities.

It's sad to hear you guys mention a lack of strong females+/+ethnic characters when one of my faves is both black and female.

Rose and Bernard are coming back into the story with a bang, and that's from the horses mouth. (Official podcast a few weeks back)

Actually, Naomi isn't African-American, she's African-British.

It's sad to hear you guys mention a lack of strong females+/+ethnic characters when one of my faves is both black and female.

Rose and Bernard are coming back into the story with a bang, and that's from the horses mouth. (Official podcast a few weeks back)

I agree, Lost has way more strong female characters than most other shows/movies/books.

I think TPTB, when casting, do always keep in mind issues of ethnic, racial, and country-of-origin balance.

I do have a feeling that Naomi is going to turn out to be "Brazillian". But obviously Marsha Thompson is not, and she is not "African American" either because she's English!;)

I am not disagreeing that XXXXXX (the parachutist) was written to fill some other characters shoes, but I don't agree with the other two positions.

It seems to me that the show is full of diversity.

Blacks are not the only diversity ethinic group in the world.

The show has- Brits, Scots, Aussies, Koreans, and Hispanics.



blacks are not an ethnic group. If they where then whites would be an ethnic group and Brits, Scots and Aussies ARE ALL WHITE. You do know not all Blacks are one monolithic group? You distinbuish different white ethnicities and then proceed to lump all Koreans and all Hispanics as if all Hispanics consitute one ethnic group or all Blacks are all comprised of one ethnic group. You would have been better saying the show has whites, koreans and hispanics instead of trying to insinuate the show is more diverse than it is by splitting up whites into different ethnicities on the show.

white people with differing accents do not even comprise different ethnicities. An Afrikaans of Dutch Descent in South Africa is just as white as an American of European descent.

In a way, I hope the original poster was right about Paolo maybe having his story line changed due to fan reaction because if the Pikki storyline played out exactly as planned from the beginning, I see no point in introducing them at all.

blacks are not an ethnic group. If they where then whites would be an ethnic group and Brits, Scots and Aussies ARE ALL WHITE. You do know not all Blacks are one monolithic group? You distinbuish different white ethnicities and then proceed to lump all Koreans and all Hispanics as if all Hispanics consitute one ethnic group or all Blacks are all comprised of one ethnic group. You would have been better saying the show has whites, koreans and hispanics instead of trying to insinuate the show is more diverse than it is by splitting up whites into different ethnicities on the show.

white people with differing accents do not even comprise different ethnicities. An Afrikaans of Dutch Descent in South Africa is just as white as an American of European descent.

I mostly agree with you, but I feel you're being a little too hard on the original poster. It's certainly true that "black" can mean many different things. I'm guessing the original poster was referring to African-Americans who descended from slaves. This could be one group. You could also have many distict groups within it; one for the middle class, for those from New York, for the ones who are Baptists, etc... You could also lump all white people into one group; and like the example with the black population, you lose accuracy as the group gets bigger and bigger. And I really do think you could say that white people across the globe share certain cultural values. Boers, Lousiana French, and Italian Argentines are all very different, of course, but I do think there are some common characteristics, and for some purposes it might be useful to group them all into one group. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you could classify everyone on the Earth into 4 or 5 ethnic groups if you wanted to, and you could also classify them into 10 million different groups, it just all depends on whether the "grouping" that your using is appropriate given the context.

This is a very interesting topic. I don't think any of the lead "black actors" where forced to leave. We all knew that Malcolm (Walt) would have to leave eventually because he is a growing child. Therefore the writers knew that Harold would have to go as well. Adewale who is British also left on his own. I know in my heart that Mr. Eko would still be around if Adewale wanted it so. Rose had one episode so far and Ms. Klugh was in two or three episodes at the most. I still think television has a long way to go, but that is another topic all together. The one thing I have learned in my lifetime is never try to categorize or easily reference anyone's race, ethnicity, culture. It's just not right, and nine times out of ten you will get it wrong.

like the decision to make her an African-American female, .

I'd be interested to hear what makes you think she's American?!

The Portuguese book would suggest Portuguese or Brazilian, and the actress is from Manchester, and of mixed English and Jamaican heritage!

I feel the "red-blooded butt kickin' " woman is more of a cliche than anything on the show.

Hmmm ... well, if we're talking diversity, why aren't there more Australians on the show? The plane left from Sydney to LA, and yet almost everyone on the plane seemed to be American. The only two I can think of off-hand who were actually Australian (based on accent, at least) are Claire and Cindy.
I do agree that, if the show is going to continue introducing more characters, it's for the better that they not all be white males. The gender/race thing has been heavily skewed in that direction since the pilot, and with 3 female deaths in Season 2 and the 3 main black characters gone it's only gotten worse. I mean, Ben's cool and all but seriously - there were only like two of the Others who weren't white, and neither of them even had speaking roles.
I do also agree with the socially constructed view of race/ethnicity, but it's important to understand that race and ethnicity are different. Saying that Michael and Eko are both black characters is true, but Eko was Nigerian and Michael was American. Desmond, Kate, and Mikhail are all white, but one is British, one is American, and one is Russian. Hurley and Ana-Lucía are both Latino, but Hurley is white (or at least surprisingly pale). Etc etc. To me ethnicity is more important than race, and I appreciate seeing more characters who are at least not from LA even if they are white.
Also - as the actress is apparently Jamaican-British, "the parachustist" was probably sent by a British woman, that woman has hired other Portuguese speakers, and "the parachutist" was found with a Portuguese book, I'm guessing she'll either be British or Brazilian.

I feel the "red-blooded butt kickin' " woman is more of a cliche than anything on the show.

I'm so glad you said this! I totally agree. So often in the media strong female characters are just a way to get a sexy body on screen; they often take on all these typically male characteristics, running around shooting and beating up people. IMO Ana Lucia was a pretty striahgt-up version of this, Kate is a little less extreme but still fits the stereotype. This is why I really like Juliet, I feel that even though she might be cold and even violent sometimes she is still a female character through and through.

Hmmm ... well, if we're talking diversity, why aren't there more Australians on the show? The plane left from Sydney to LA, and yet almost everyone on the plane seemed to be American. The only two I can think of off-hand who were actually Australian (based on accent, at least) are Claire and Cindy.
I do agree that, if the show is going to continue introducing more characters, it's for the better that they not all be white males. The gender/race thing has been heavily skewed in that direction since the pilot, and with 3 female deaths in Season 2 and the 3 main black characters gone it's only gotten worse. I mean, Ben's cool and all but seriously - there were only like two of the Others who weren't white, and neither of them even had speaking roles.

Characters
Jack-white male from LA
Sawyer-white male from somewhere in the south
Kate-white woman from Iowa
Locke-white man from LA
Hurley-hispanic man from LA
Claire-white girl from Australia
Charlie-white male from England
Sayid-middle eastern man from Iraq
Michael-black male from NYC
Walt-black male from Australia
Sun-asian woman from Korea
Jin-asian man from Korea
Ana-Lucia-hispanic woman from LA
Eko-black man from Africa
Libby-white woman from LA
Rose-black woman from the Bronx
Bernard-white man from NYC
Shannon-white woman from LA
Boone-white man from LA

Now as far as the Others being white, they seem to be mostly American scientists. Most American scientists are white men. This is fact. There is also a white Russian scientist and a black female scientist (I am guessing that Mrs. Klugh was a scientist as well). If Ben is indicitave of all of the natives to the island, those Other's are also white. There is no such thing as an isolated group of natives that are diverse. Look at anthropology books, small groups of natives living in an isloated land are very similar, and we don't know enough about the history of the island to really show any reason why, if this island was founded by white folk, it should have anything less than the majority of the population be white.

I think that this show is really diverse. Everyone is from different circumstances and walks of life.

Of course, they knew what ethnic and racial background they wanted for tree girl, but not because it fits some affirmative action quota, but because it was necessary for the story.

Perhaps she's a new girlfriend for Hurley ... :hypocrit:

Well, I don't necessarily mean her entire purpose, but more about the specifics, like the decision to make her an African-American female, which would address 2 and 3. I'm not even saying I agree with those complaints, mind you, but I've certainly heard them.

Also, several weeks ago is certainly long enough for them to have changed their plans for Paulo and Nikki, and to potentially change the significance of this character's role.
How do you know she is African American?
She might be English - the actress is!
Or she may be Brazilian or Portugese.

Why do some people seem to think every black person is African American, regardless of whether or not they have ever even set foot in the USA? I have seen Mr Eko described as African American and it annoys me so much!

How do you know she is African American?
She might be English - the actress is!
Or she may be Brazilian or Portugese.

Why do some people seem to think every black person is African American, regardless of whether or not they have ever even set foot in the USA? I have seen Mr Eko described as African American and it annoys me so much!

There are at least three ways of identifying an ethnic group. One, shared culture, two shared physical traits and three a combination of the first two. Hispanic is a good example of shared culture. I think people are just used to combining the words African & American to identify an ethnic group based on a combination of shared culture and physical traits. They do not necessarily believe Mr Eko was played by an American, I think they have just fallen into the habit of combining the two words as one term when they identify an actor as an English-speaking-black&non-African.

My only reaction to the new character based on the short view we had of her was; Hey she looks like she is knda cute.

There are at least three ways of identifying an ethnic group. One, shared culture, two shared physical traits and three a combination of the first two. Hispanic is a good example of shared culture. I think people are just used to combining the words Black & American to identify an ethnic group based on a combination of shared culture and physical traits. They do not necessarily believe Mr Eko was played by an American, I think they have just fallen into the habit of combining the two words as one term when they identify an actor as an English-speaking-black&non-African.

My only reaction to the new character based on the short view we had of her was; Hey she looks like she is knda cute.
Since when has Nigeria not been part of Africa?
It annoys me when people refer to non American black people as African American because it shows total ignorance of the fact that there is a world out there filled by people that aren't American, have never been to America, will never go to America and yet somehow manage to survive just fine.
Sorry for the rant, but it's this sort of attitude that perpetuates all the negative American stereotypes.

Since when has Nigeria not been part of Africa?
It annoys me when people refer to non American black people as African American because it shows total ignorance of the fact that there is a world out there filled by people that aren't American, have never been to America, will never go to America and yet somehow manage to survive just fine.
Sorry for the rant, but it's this sort of attitude that perpetuates all the negative American stereotypes.

Not sure where you are from. I somewhat agree with what you have said. A lot of Americans don't have a world view, this is a serious problem. However, part of the reason that American's refer to every black person as African-American is because it has been so drilled into our heads that referring to any black person as anything other than African-American is insulting. It becomes so second nature that it is the term that is automatically said, it is not coming from a bad place that a person is accidentally mislabeled. It is just a confusing issue, as I have also have friends from Jamaica and Trinidad that are technically not African-Americans, but refer to themselves as such. It is not meant to be an insult, but sometimes it is safer to label someone with a term that is considered safe in the society that we live in than to try and guess where someone comes from.

Now as far as the Others being white, they seem to be mostly American scientists. Most American scientists are white men. This is fact. There is also a white Russian scientist and a black female scientist (I am guessing that Mrs. Klugh was a scientist as well). If Ben is indicitave of all of the natives to the island, those Other's are also white. There is no such thing as an isolated group of natives that are diverse. Look at anthropology books, small groups of natives living in an isloated land are very similar, and we don't know enough about the history of the island to really show any reason why, if this island was founded by white folk, it should have anything less than the majority of the population be white.

This stuff about the Island natives I find really interesting; and I have a few different thoughts. Ben is caucasian and culturally very American. No way am I buying that he's an indegenous person (assuming the Island really is in the South Pacific). Now he might be a Nth generation Islander, so I guess that would make him a native, but no way is he indigenous. Perhaps he's a descendant of the Black Rockers?? He presumably learned American cultural values from the Dharma-ites, as well as the English language, seeing as how the Black Rock was a Danish ship (right? Magnus Hanso?) carrying slaves from Mozambique.

I do not doubt that there at least were an indigenous people on the Island. This is evidenced by the 4-toed statue. Whether or not they're still around I don't know, but in the dock scene from the S2 finale you can see that Ben definitely has 5 toes. Honestly I would be pretty upset if we found out that the 4-toed people are still around, and they turn out to be more white Americans. I guess if they gave us a good explanation it might make that a little easier to swallow, but I still wouldn't like it.

Edit: I wanted to add something that I just realized which could concievably be very important. The Black Rock was a Danish ship, or whatever, but Locke speculated that the slaves it carried were from Mozambique. Guess what language they speak in Mozambique?? That's right, Portuguese. A coincidence?? I don't think so.

What if Penny intentionally employed Portuguese-speakers in the listening station and the search and rescue teams because somehow she knew that the Black Rock had also crashed on the Island, and wanted her employees to be able to converse with the Rockers when they got there??? Thoughts??

This stuff about the Island natives I find really interesting; and I have a few different thoughts. Ben is caucasian and culturally very American. No way am I buying that he's an indegenous person (assuming the Island really is in the South Pacific). Now he might be a Nth generation Islander, so I guess that would make him a native, but no way is he indigenous. Perhaps he's a descendant of the Black Rockers?? He presumably learned American cultural values from the Dharma-ites, as well as the English language, seeing as how the Black Rock was a Danish ship (right? Magnus Hanso?).

I do not doubt that there at least were an indigenous people on the Island. This is evidenced by the 4-toed statue. Whether or not they're still around I don't know, but in the dock scene from the S2 finale you can see that Ben definitely has 5 toes. Honestly I would be pretty upset if we found out that the 4-toed people are still around, and they turn out to be more white Americans. I guess if they gave us a good explanation it might make that a little easier to swallow, but I still wouldn't like it.

You expressed better than I what I was trying to get across. Ben is not physically the typical South Pacific Islander. I don't think that he is the product of a people that have been there for a long time. But at the time that his people came, the original inhabitants were gone, or driven out. So essentially Ben's people came to be the race and ethnic type that became the people and look of that island. It would be very disappointing if TPTB show us the original inhabitants of the island and they turn out to look like, well, me.

Perhaps she's a new girlfriend for Hurley ... :hypocrit:

ha! isn't it funny that new arrivals are kind of instantly tapped as love interests?

I think they saw and opportunity and took it.

They probably knew they were going to introduce a new character, but who?

There have been complaints, doesn't anybody remember when people said LOST was racist because Michael and Walt left, then Eko was killed? There are no black actors on LOST.

There is a lack of women. 3 women got nixed in 1 season, and we've got probably a dozen male actors (even recurring, like Tom, Ethan, Pickett, Alpert, Goodwin) compared to the 4 women we have on the show.

Kate was a very independant character in Season 1, but in Season 2 she only played a part in the Love Triangle and in Season 3 she watches Sawyer get beat, cries and has sex.

Claire finally had 2 storylines going for her this season, but she was unconcious for one (implant), and the other one was catching birds. Not very strong.

Sun is pregnant and has not played a part in a single role this season except for accidently shooting Colleen.

Juliet is a great female lead.

They are in need of a black actor, and we are short on (strong) female leads, so it's perfect.

I'm sure they kept their eyes open but looked for a black woman.

Since when has Nigeria not been part of Africa?
It annoys me when people refer to non American black people as African American because it shows total ignorance of the fact that there is a world out there filled by people that aren't American, have never been to America, will never go to America and yet somehow manage to survive just fine.
Sorry for the rant, but it's this sort of attitude that perpetuates all the negative American stereotypes.Woo Hoo did we miscommunicate. What does calling an Englishman an American have to do with knowing where Nigeria is? :biggrin: I know Nigeria is part of Africa just as I know there are many native Africans who are not black. My sentence was talking about actors not characters and the actor who played the Nigerian Mr. Eko. is from England not Nigeria. Calling the English actor non-African does not mean I do not know Nigeria is part of Africa (or that I think England is part of America). I was trying to point out that in the US (due largely to pressure from African-Americans) the word black is often replaced by the term African-American. I know many non-US people see that and leap to the mistaken assumption that we somehow assume non-African blacks must be American, if they speak English. Not true. That is a mistaken impression created by the difference in word usage between the US and other English speaking areas. The misunderstanding is as much on their side as on ours. If they stereotype based on that then they are stereotyping US people based on their misunderstanding of US slang.

I am glad to see a new non-Lostee non-Other added to the mix. She also helps to restore the male/female ratio since female losses have exceeded male on the show.

I would be willing to call Ben native if the Black Rock is the source of island inhabitants and not an earlier group. I however see the Other's as basically Western European & US in culture and outlook.

ha! isn't it funny that new arrivals are kind of instantly tapped as love interests?

Love is good ... ;)

I mostly agree with you, but I feel you're being a little too hard on the original poster. It's certainly true that "black" can mean many different things. I'm guessing the original poster was referring to African-Americans who descended from slaves. This could be one group. You could also have many distict groups within it; one for the middle class, for those from New York, for the ones who are Baptists, etc... You could also lump all white people into one group; and like the example with the black population, you lose accuracy as the group gets bigger and bigger. And I really do think you could say that white people across the globe share certain cultural values. Boers, Lousiana French, and Italian Argentines are all very different, of course, but I do think there are some common characteristics, and for some purposes it might be useful to group them all into one group. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you could classify everyone on the Earth into 4 or 5 ethnic groups if you wanted to, and you could also classify them into 10 million different groups, it just all depends on whether the "grouping" that your using is appropriate given the context.

Ethnically speaking from a anthropologic point of view, there are only three "ethnicities" - caucasoid, mongoloid, and negroid (and before anyone takes offense those are the scientific terms).

And ethnically speaking then, this new character is a caucasian who is of brazilian descent.

I do agree that, if the show is going to continue introducing more characters, it's for the better that they not all be white males. The gender/race thing has been heavily skewed in that direction since the pilot, and with 3 female deaths in Season 2 and the 3 main black characters gone it's only gotten worse. I mean, Ben's cool and all but seriously - there were only like two of the Others who weren't white, and neither of them even had speaking roles.

Give me a break! Three of the central characters in season 2 (Walt, Michael, and Eko) were black. That's over-representation. Should we complain about that? 18% of Americans are black, and 2% of Australians are black. And yes, Australians are under-represented. It's an American production. As it is, they've probably used up all the local Australian actors available in Hawaii. How about we just let them cast whoever they think will do the best job, and not worry about it. I think they've done a pretty good job myself.
100%
Ethnically speaking from a anthropologic point of view, there are only three "ethnicities" - caucasoid, mongoloid, and negroid (and before anyone takes offense those are the scientific terms).

And ethnically speaking then, this new character is a caucasian who is of brazilian descent.


"Caucasoid, mongoloid, and negroid" are not ethnicities, they are racial groups. Ethnicity involves culture. Brazilians and other Hispanics are a combination of all three racial groups, possessing African, Spanish and Native American ancenstry.

As for the new character, I didn't even think she looked black! I totally thought she was Hispanic or something. And when it was revealed that the book's title was in portugese, I just thought, "oh yeah, south america," and that was that.

Im very upset about this show. There is no one I can identify with. I see no pure Irish red-headed green-eyed chubby 5'10 pregnant woman on the show and that is totally unfair and I feel under-represented! The closest we came was Colleen and she got killed off!

Ok, so Im being a tad sarcastic here. I enjoy the show because of the story-line and hope TPTB cast excellent actors for the parts. Race and ethnicity and sex and creed be dammed.

I certainly hope the casting of this actress was not merely because of her race.

I tend to agree with the people who have said that "black" people are not the only people that can create "diversity." This show features two Korean people relatively prominently, which is much more rare in American television than featuring black characters, and yet everyone still goes on and on about the lack of diversity. Granted, two Korean characters don't exactly make for a diversity bonanza, but it is something, and I think it's unfortunate that it is often overlooked because two or three black actors have noticeably left the show.

Kiele Sanchez is half Puerto Rican. I didn't hear many (or any?) people advocating Nikki's survival because she brings diversity to the cast. Instead I heard complaints about how she's just another "pretty face" and how she was a terrible, annoying character. So what it is? Do we want diversity, or does it have to be specific diversity tailored to our personal tastes? Are we more concerned with color than we are with culture?

Finally, I don't buy "Scottish people are just white people with accents" as a shot at this show's diversity. Just because some people aren't black doesn't mean they can't offer cultural diversity. I've never been to Scotland or Iraq. I've never met someone from Brazil. Watching this show, I feel like I'm getting a mini around the world experience. No, it's not the FULLEST experience I could possibly get, but I think it's a pretty good one. It's not exactly like sitting at the Central Perk on Thursday nights.

Hey, check out my new idea: Remember that Locke said the slaves in the Black Rock were from Mozambique?? Well they speak Portuguese in Mozambique. A lot of people are assuming that the parachutist is from Brazil, which is definitely a possibility. But I just couldn't help but think that maybe TPTB will make that Mozambique connection again. Especially if it's revealed that either Ben's group, or the other Others, are descendants of the Black Rockers.

Ethnically speaking from a anthropologic point of view, there are only three "ethnicities" - caucasoid, mongoloid, and negroid (and before anyone takes offense those are the scientific terms).

Plythagoras is right, you're confusing race with ethnicity.

Hey, check out my new idea: Remember that Locke said the slaves in the Black Rock were from Mozambique?? Well they speak Portuguese in Mozambique. A lot of people are assuming that the parachutist is from Brazil, which is definitely a possibility. But I just couldn't help but think that maybe TPTB will make that Mozambique connection again. Especially if it's revealed that either Ben's group, or the other Others, are descendants of the Black Rockers.



Plythagoras is right, you're confusing race with ethnicity.Umm I read your interesting theory but still prefer the Brazilian Connection. However the Black Rockers has a real ring to it. :biggrin: If the Others originated from the Black Rock shouldn't they be a society that has a few older people hanging around? At least older than Ben.

I didn't remember Locke saying where the Black Rock slaves were from and for that matter how did he know they were slaves not prisoners? and still on the ship when it wrecked?

Race of the parachutist = human.
Ethnic has a lot of varied definitions depending on which source you check.

I am miffed!!! Where are the German characters. You'd think if something sinester was going on on the Island that some Nazi op groups would be involved...

Get a grip people its a wonderful tv series that has a cast larger than Friends.

HAHA!! This thread is amusing in a weird way....

Not sure where you are from. I somewhat agree with what you have said. A lot of Americans don't have a world view, this is a serious problem. However, part of the reason that American's refer to every black person as African-American is because it has been so drilled into our heads that referring to any black person as anything other than African-American is insulting. It becomes so second nature that it is the term that is automatically said, it is not coming from a bad place that a person is accidentally mislabeled. It is just a confusing issue, as I have also have friends from Jamaica and Trinidad that are technically not African-Americans, but refer to themselves as such. It is not meant to be an insult, but sometimes it is safer to label someone with a term that is considered safe in the society that we live in than to try and guess where someone comes from.

EXACTLY!! Every time we turn around there's another term not to be used when referring to darker skinned people so we end up calling them all African-American or Hispanic (although the great majority around my parts are indeed Mexican). I think the whole term African-American is silly (please don't get offended) because how can you be African if you weren't born there? You don't have a dual citizenship or anything...that would be like me trying to go around all the time telling everyone I'm Scotch-American (mom's side) or German-American (dad's side). Silliness...and personally I don't believe there is any such thing as multiple "races", we're all apart of the HUMAN race we just happen to be different shades of the SAME color (learnt that in school I did :biggrin: ) and from different spots on the earth. No biggee!!

Im very upset about this show. There is no one I can identify with. I see no pure Irish red-headed green-eyed chubby 5'10 pregnant woman on the show and that is totally unfair and I feel under-represented! The closest we came was Colleen and she got killed off!

Uh huh and I think Texans have very much been neglected, I haven't seen anyone from Texas! What about homeschoolers? And how about some Lane Bryant sized women?? Why is everybody so dadgum skinny except Hurley???

Give me a break! Three of the central characters in season 2 (Walt, Michael, and Eko) were black. That's over-representation.

Walt had less than two minutes of screen time in all of Season 2. Hardly a central character; many dead characters got more air time. And Michael was missing most of the second half.


There have been complaints, doesn't anybody remember when people said LOST was racist because Michael and Walt left, then Eko was killed?


What I remember wasn't so much complaints about the actors leaving as to how their characters developed so negatively. Sawyer is guilty of the first degree murder of an innocent man, yet he is always among the most popular characters. Kate commits first degree murder, but her act is shown as somewhat justifiable. But when Michael commits murder, it is done in a highly objectionable and irredeemable manner, and he becomes an exceptionally hated character. Eko was given perhaps the most hurtful black stereotype, the vicious drug dealer. The character had hope for a while as he appeared to have been genuinely sorry for his acts and was trying to make things better, but then turned unrepentant at the end in an abrupt, jarring change of character. Walt wasn't so negative, but is the only one-time main character whose story was never told, and now whatever happened to him while he was with the Others can't be realistically done by the original actor.

I prefer to remember the Season 1 Michael who put himself in danger to hunt boar and rescue Jack and Charlie from the cave-in and the Eko who constantly went back into the water to carry crash survivors to the beach.

If[/b] they stereotype based on that then they are stereotyping US people based on their misunderstanding of US slang.

Haha, nah sorry mate, in this instance the US word usage that was displayed was simply incorrect! Basically all people need to remember is that if somebody isn't American, then don't call them it - it's not a difficult concept!

Or is Bono an Irish-American?! Is Fabio Cannavaro an Italian-American?! No, they're just Irish and Italian respectively. There's no problem with the word African in relation to Adewale, his parents are Nigerian, his entire heritage is African, it's just the word American that's a problem, so swerve it!

Lost is a global show, that's why you saw Desmond singing 'It's a Grand Old Team' this week, despite the fact that this won't mean a thing to 99% of the US audience!

Haha, nah sorry mate, in this instance the US word usage that was displayed was simply incorrect! Basically all people need to remember is that if somebody isn't American, then don't call them it - it's not a difficult concept!

Or is Bono an Irish-American?! Is Fabio Cannavaro an Italian-American?! No, they're just Irish and Italian respectively. There's no problem with the word African in relation to Adewale, his parents are Nigerian, his entire heritage is African, it's just the word American that's a problem, so swerve it!

Lost is a global show, that's why you saw Desmond singing 'It's a Grand Old Team' this week, despite the fact that this won't mean a thing to 99% of the US audience!
This is exactly what I was trying to say.
Thank you Suedehead!

You're right Suedehead.

I do however think that Fogey's fumbling the explanation as to why he used the term "African American" originally can tell us some interesting things. First, I'm sure that Fogey knows that Adewale is English, and that his folks are from at least Africa if not Nigeria. He just popped out the wrong term. This really is a problem in the US, where we have a large minority of black Africans, descended from slaves, and a growing minority of African immigrants (I met some Welsh guy who thought that London was really cosmopolitan; the US takes in more immigrants than the entire rest of the world combined), and no terminology for these two very distinct ethnic groups. I'm sure that Fogey used the term African American in the first place in order not to offend anyone, so it's actually kind of ironic.

I do disagree with Fogey that "African American" is a term mostly promoted by the black community. IMO it's quite the opposite. In my experience I've met only one person who liked to be called African American, and she was one of my high school teachers, and also insisted on calling the white kids European Americans *vomits*. I dunno, I guess African American is a good term when you want to refer to all people of African heritage who currently reside in North America, but if you want to be more specific than that the term really fails. It's just not that descriptive.

Nah, I don't think they would hire someone just because they're black. I think they would do it based on acting abilities.

Yeah. Like Paolo. Had nothing to do with him being hot in Brasil. His acting skills really shot through the roof. </sarcasm>

I do disagree with Fogey that "African American" is a term mostly promoted by the black community. IMO it's quite the opposite. In my experience I've met only one person who liked to be called African American, and she was one of my high school teachers, and also insisted on calling the white kids European Americans *vomits*. I dunno, I guess African American is a good term when you want to refer to all people of African heritage who currently reside in North America, but if you want to be more specific than that the term really fails. It's just not that descriptive.
I actually spend a lot of time at another message board (usually during the work day when I have some free time), and it's a particularly "political" board. Anyway, I have seen numerous conversations about the term "African American," and it seems like many black Americans DO prefer to be called African American. I got into a discussion with a poster who prefers to be called African American. It's not that I don't understand WHY some people prefer this term, but I don't think it makes a lot of sense (considering that a white person born in America doesn't call himself "Irish-American" etc.). At any rate, the debate dwindled, and I let it go because we're all allowed to call ourselves whatever we want, I suppose. I just thought I'd add this here because from what I've seen (on this particular board, and take it for what it's worth), black Americans very much prefer the use of African American. I don't think we should go so far as to consider "black" to be offensive. I prefer it as a descriptor because it's on the level with "white," and isn't prone to the inaccuracies of the "African American" vs. the "Irish American."

I hope I haven't offended anyone. I just thought I'd bring another perspective to what Admiral Erik said with some of my "experience" with this topic.

Walt had less than two minutes of screen time in all of Season 2. Hardly a central character; many dead characters got more air time. And Michael was missing most of the second half.



What I remember wasn't so much complaints about the actors leaving as to how their characters developed so negatively. Sawyer is guilty of the first degree murder of an innocent man, yet he is always among the most popular characters. Kate commits first degree murder, but her act is shown as somewhat justifiable. But when Michael commits murder, it is done in a highly objectionable and irredeemable manner, and he becomes an exceptionally hated character. Eko was given perhaps the most hurtful black stereotype, the vicious drug dealer. The character had hope for a while as he appeared to have been genuinely sorry for his acts and was trying to make things better, but then turned unrepentant at the end in an abrupt, jarring change of character. Walt wasn't so negative, but is the only one-time main character whose story was never told, and now whatever happened to him while he was with the Others can't be realistically done by the original actor.

I prefer to remember the Season 1 Michael who put himself in danger to hunt boar and rescue Jack and Charlie from the cave-in and the Eko who constantly went back into the water to carry crash survivors to the beach.


Please tell me you are joking? Yes Eko was a drug dealer, but what happened once he hit the island? He was a reborn man. A man of God. Eko fro all of season 2 was the most spiritual person on the island. Not only that but Eko was turned to by just about everyone for advice and guidence. Claire, Charlie, Locke, Ana Lucia, Libby, Jin and even Jack all turned to him for advice. Eko may have been have been the typical drug dealer before the isalnd but once on the island he was a changed man.

Also did you forget about Rose being the mother figure of all season 1 and 2?

Are you crazy taking about Micheal? So you believe the only reason his storyline went the way it did was because he was black? Are you really that delusional to think that the writers are out to get balck people? Micheals storyline went that way because of 2 count them 2 reasons. The cator wanted to take time off for his movie projects and because he was the only charecter with a kid.

Lost is on of the more culturally diverse shows on tv today. Instead of the typical all white, all black or all mexican cast Lost's cast is represented by many cultures. You have:

Jin
Sun
Eko
Micheal(who will be returning)
Walt(who will be returning- the actor will return as TPTB said)
Rose
Desmond
Ana Lucia
Claire
Paulo
Alex
Danielle


All different ethinicity's. But sure you go on think that Lost TPTB are out to get black people and make them look bad.:rolleyes:
100%
Yeah. Like Paolo. Had nothing to do with him being hot in Brasil. His acting skills really shot through the roof. </sarcasm>

In 300 he was a pretty damn go actor. So its not like there is no proof that the guy can't act. The problem was just the way his charecter was written was not good for that actor.

You're right Suedehead.

I do however think that Fogey's fumbling the explanation as to why he used the term "African American" originally can tell us some interesting things. First, I'm sure that Fogey knows that Adewale is English, and that his folks are from at least Africa if not Nigeria. He just popped out the wrong term. ............I'm sure that Fogey used the term African American in the first place in order not to offend anyone, so it's actually kind of ironic.LOL thanks for the fumbling the explanation, I do a lot of that. .:biggrin: I often try to offend but since my reference to Mr. Eko called him an Englishman I do know he is from England. Now can any of you find a place in this thread where I called any of the characters or actors African-American? Good Luck.!

I posted a response to a question from nynaeve about why people were referring to a character as African-American. I said, "I think people are just used to combining the words to identify an ethnic group based on a combination of shared culture and physical traits. They do not necessarily believe Mr Eko was played by an American, I think they have just fallen into the habit of combining the two words as one term when they identify an actor as an English-speaking-black&non-African."

I do see that as a possible explanation for the misuse of the African American label in reference to an English actor. Nynaeve responded to that post by asking the off the wall question, "Since when has Nigeria not been part of Africa?" That sucked me into a long winded fumble.

Nynaeve is this response less fumbling? I believe the question of "Why do some people seem to think every black person is African American, regardless of whether or not they have ever even set foot in the USA?" Contains an error. It assumes American = US citizen. It also assumes the term African-American has the same meaning to the poster as it does to the reader. Some people mistakenly use African-American as a generic term for black however that does not prove they assume the person is from the US

If we are going to discuses the misuse of the term African-American perhaps we should also point out that using American to refer to someone as being from the US is another common error. American can refer to North Americans (3 countries), Central Americans or South Americans. If the new character is supposed to be from Brazil then she is being portrayed as South American with some African heritage. I think I will call her African-South-American.;)

Admiral re I do disagree with Fogey that "African American" is a term mostly promoted by the black community. In reply a partial quote http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/African-American
"The term dated back at least to Black nationalist Malcolm X, who favored African American ……..and ….During the 1980s, the most influential proponent of the widespread adoption of the term was Jesse Jackson." (I happen to consider both Malcom X and Jesse Jackson to be "black" thus my confusion about who promoted the terms use.):biggrin: .

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Irish+American
Irish Americans are residents of the United States who acknowledge Irish ancestry. Roughly 34 million Americans reported Irish ancestry in the 2000 US Census.[1] The only self-reported ethnic group larger than Irish Americans is German Americans.[2]

Sigh so many people to correct and so little time :cry:

Edited to add PS SuedeheadEFC re Haha, nah sorry mate, in this instance the US word usage that was displayed was simply incorrect!
Did I say it was correct? I was indicating African-American was a common misuse for black and was becoming slang accepted by some people to mean black. I believe many people also incorrectly use America as a slang word meaning U.S. Glad to see you are not one of them. After all misunderstanding slang from another area can lead to um er misunderstanding? :cool:

Please tell me you are joking? Yes Eko was a drug dealer, but what happened once he hit the island? He was a reborn man. A man of God. Eko fro all of season 2 was the most spiritual person on the island. Not only that but Eko was turned to by just about everyone for advice and guidence. Claire, Charlie, Locke, Ana Lucia, Libby, Jin and even Jack all turned to him for advice. Eko may have been have been the typical drug dealer before the isalnd but once on the island he was a changed man.

Also did you forget about Rose being the mother figure of all season 1 and 2?

Are you crazy taking about Micheal? So you believe the only reason his storyline went the way it did was because he was black? Are you really that delusional to think that the writers are out to get balck people? Micheals storyline went that way because of 2 count them 2 reasons. The cator wanted to take time off for his movie projects and because he was the only charecter with a kid.

Lost is on of the more culturally diverse shows on tv today. Instead of the typical all white, all black or all mexican cast Lost's cast is represented by many cultures. You have:

Jin
Sun
Eko
Micheal(who will be returning)
Walt(who will be returning- the actor will return as TPTB said)
Rose
Desmond
Ana Lucia
Claire
Paulo
Alex
Danielle


All different ethinicity's. But sure you go on think that Lost TPTB are out to get black people and make them look bad.:rolleyes:

Dude, he never said that TPTB were out to get black people, he's saying that Micheal and Eko left the cast because they weren't happy with their characters.

Now can any of you find a place in this thread where I called any of the characters or actors African-American? Good Luck.!

LOL Sorry dude, I kind of just took Suedehead's post at face value, and didn't bother re-reading the post you had actually made. My bad.

If we are going to discuses the misuse of the term African-American perhaps we should also point out that using American to refer to someone as being from the US is another common error. American can refer to North Americans (3 countries), Central Americans or South Americans. If the new character is supposed to be from Brazil then she is being portrayed as South American with some African heritage. I think I will call her African-South-American.;)

This is a really good point. I used to live in South America and the term "Americano" is really used to refer to both continents. If an American told someone they were an "Americano" the person would not understand what they're trying to say. Usually the term "estadounidense" which means United-State-ian is used. Either that or "notreamericano", which interestingly enough is used synonymously with "estadounidense"; in the newspaper you will read about George Bush the "North American president". However in the Anglosphere I think that the term American almost always refers to someone from the US. It is definitely used this way in England and Australia. I guess it really just gets confusing when you start translating between languages, and then it's just an issue of semantics.

I'm beginning to think I shouldn't have even brought up whether or not people prefer to be called "African American". To me the most immportant thing is to not offend people, so it's important to use a term chosen by that particular group. The problem is that different people who belong to the group may prefer different terms. Many may not care either way. In the end it's really impossible to say which term is most popular; it's not like someone's going to convene a national congress to vote on which term (if any) is preferred. Anyways, like I said, IMO the most important thing is to not be offensive.

LOL thanks for the fumbling the explanation, I do a lot of that. .:biggrin: I often try to offend but since my reference to Mr. Eko called him an Englishman I do know he is from England. Now can any of you find a place in this thread where I called any of the characters or actors African-American? Good Luck.!

I posted a response to a question from nynaeve about why people were referring to a character as African-American. I said, "I think people are just used to combining the words to identify an ethnic group based on a combination of shared culture and physical traits. They do not necessarily believe Mr Eko was played by an American, I think they have just fallen into the habit of combining the two words as one term when they identify an actor as an English-speaking-black&non-African."

I do see that as a possible explanation for the misuse of the African American label in reference to an English actor. Nynaeve responded to that post by asking the off the wall question, "Since when has Nigeria not been part of Africa?" That sucked me into a long winded fumble.

Nynaeve is this response less fumbling? I believe the question of "Why do some people seem to think every black person is African American, regardless of whether or not they have ever even set foot in the USA?" Contains an error. It assumes American = US citizen. It also assumes the term African-American has the same meaning to the poster as it does to the reader. Some people mistakenly use African-American as a generic term for black however that does not prove they assume the person is from the US

If we are going to discuses the misuse of the term African-American perhaps we should also point out that using American to refer to someone as being from the US is another common error. American can refer to North Americans (3 countries), Central Americans or South Americans. If the new character is supposed to be from Brazil then she is being portrayed as South American with some African heritage. I think I will call her African-South-American.;)

Admiral re I do disagree with Fogey that "African American" is a term mostly promoted by the black community. In reply a partial quote http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/African-American
"The term dated back at least to Black nationalist Malcolm X, who favored African American ……..and ….During the 1980s, the most influential proponent of the widespread adoption of the term was Jesse Jackson." (I happen to consider both Malcom X and Jesse Jackson to be "black" thus my confusion about who promoted the terms use.):biggrin: .

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Irish+American
Irish Americans are residents of the United States who acknowledge Irish ancestry. Roughly 34 million Americans reported Irish ancestry in the 2000 US Census.[1] The only self-reported ethnic group larger than Irish Americans is German Americans.[2]

Sigh so many people to correct and so little time :cry:
If you reread my original post, you'll find I stated that I had seen Mr Eko (as apposed to AAA) described as African American. You replied that this term was used to denote a non African born black person, so clearly you misunderstood my comment.
I would also like to ask you how African American can mean anything other than a person of African/American heritage?
I agree that the term American could be used to describe anyone from North, Central or South America, but an English or Australian person too? Come on that is just ludicrous.
It would be like the character of Michael or Harold the actor that plays him, being described as African English, then claiming the fault was with the person querying the validity of that statement bacause he is black and speaks English, regardless of the fact he is probably happy and proud to be American.

I have no problem with America or Americans, I just happen to be English and would find it offensive to have my own nationality discounted and replaced as American just because of the colour of my skin.
As Suedehead said would it be ok to describe Bono from U2 as Irish American? Would it be Ok to call Charlie/Dom American? Or is it only black people that must accept this discourtesy and be told they are at fault for misunderstanding and thinking that American should just mean American?
100%
LOL Sorry dude, I kind of just took Suedehead's post at face value, and didn't bother re-reading the post you had actually made. My bad.



This is a really good point. I used to live in South America and the term "Americano" is really used to refer to both continents. If an American told someone they were an "Americano" the person would not understand what they're trying to say. Usually the term "estadounidense" which means United-State-ian is used. Either that or "notreamericano", which interestingly enough is used synonymously with "estadounidense"; in the newspaper you will read about George Bush the "North American president". However in the Anglosphere I think that the term American almost always refers to someone from the US. It is definitely used this way in England and Australia. I guess it really just gets confusing when you start translating between languages, and then it's just an issue of semantics.

I'm beginning to think I shouldn't have even brought up whether or not people prefer to be called "African American". To me the most immportant thing is to not offend people, so it's important to use a term chosen by that particular group. The problem is that different people who belong to the group may prefer different terms. Many may not care either way. In the end it's really impossible to say which term is most popular; it's not like someone's going to convene a national congress to vote on which term (if any) is preferred. Anyways, like I said, IMO the most important thing is to not be offensive.
I wouldn't worry too much about taking what Suedehead said at face value. Suedehead indicated the part of Fogeys post he/she (sorry Suedehead - don't know if you are male or female) was responding to and never claimed that Fogey him/herself (sorry Fogey - again I don't know if you are male or female) used the term African American for a non American person.

Dude, he never said that TPTB were out to get black people, he's saying that Micheal and Eko left the cast because they weren't happy with their characters.

He insinuated that the writers depict only black people in a bad way. That the writers are racist agaianst black people.


So can I basically say the same thing about UPN's depiction of white people to come off as stupid and dorky on their all balck shows?

My oh my, this thread has veered off topic. But I still can't resist throwing in my two cents. So here goes:

Many people from the United States try to avoid using the term "black" because
1. They consider the term offensive
or
2. They are afraid to offend someone else

I happen to know a few white African-Americans. I am also fully aware that using the term "African-American" to refer to someone with dark skin can be inaccurate because it is based on an assumption. Therefore I often find myself between a rock and a hard place with it comes to "racial terminology". On one hand, I want to avoid language that could be considered offensive, but on the other I don't want to make assumptions about anyone.

Please don't think I am trying to speak for every US citizen on this topic. However, those who do not live in the United States should make an attempt to understand and appreciate our cultural and social sensitivities before making judgments.

If you reread my original post, you'll find I stated that I had seen Mr Eko (as apposed to AAA) described as African American. You replied that this term was used to denote a non African born black person, so clearly you misunderstood my comment.I replied that some (note the word some) people used the term African-American to denote Black. I also specifically referred to actors not characters because I was proposing a possible answer to your post by providing an example of the misuse of the term African American. Your response about the location of Nigeria did not make sense to me and still doesn't. So clearly you misunderstood my response.
I would also like to ask you how African American can mean anything other than a person of African/American heritage? I don't think it does mean anything else and did not say I do. However as I indicated I do think some people may be starting to use it in a generic way to mean Black. Note that in colonial times the word Nigerian was corrupted to become a slang word that is now unacceptable in the US.
I think the misuse of the term to indicate anyone, not just a US citizen, who is black has for “some” people become an accepted practice. I think it is in the process of becoming US slang for Black and thus subject to accidentally being used in reference to non-US people. Similar to the way that, through frequent misuse, “American” is now often understood by many to mean “US Citizen“. Note that trying to explain or theorize about this process does not mean I accept the misuse as proper.

I have no problem with America or Americans, I just happen to be English and would find it offensive to have my own nationality discounted and replaced as American just because of the colour of my skin.
As Suedehead said would it be ok to describe Bono from U2 as Irish American? Would it be Ok to call Charlie/Dom American? Or is it only black people that must accept this discourtesy and be told they are at fault for misunderstanding and thinking that American should just mean American? Well Bono is probably better known than many actors and perhaps not a good example of this mistake, but do you really think that if he were in a US show he would object to people mistaking his show character for Irish-American? Would taking that as an insult mean he is biased? If you were an English actor and were dealing with a group of people (people who considered American to be a polite term) you would be insulted if they assumed your show character was American but you have no problem with Americans? I guess we are still miscommunicating.

I really don't see a big deal in mistaking an English speaking Black for an African-American. The US does have a substantial English heritage and similar language (Look at the Jelly vs Jam thread to see it is not the same language). I don't think it means US citizens have no concept of where Nigeria is or assume everyone wants to be a US citizen, . It means some of them mistook an Englishman for a US American and tacked on the word African to indicate black. I don't see that as discounting his English heritage based on skin color. I see it as a natural mistake that should not upset anyone who does not have a problem with being mistaken for a US Citizen.

Yeah. Like Paolo. Had nothing to do with him being hot in Brasil. His acting skills really shot through the roof. </sarcasm>

I've seen some of his movies and find him to be an excellent actor. In a movie called Carandiru, he plays a transvestite who is the b***** of the most violent penitentiary you could possibly imagine. In Lost, unfortunately to the viewers, he was only given 3 or 4 lines before having an epi which he had to share with Kiele Sanchez, a much inferior actress. And yes, he's hot, but some people do combine being hot to being talented actors.

nynaeve - I just looked through the thread; nobody ever even called Eko "African American". So I don't really understand what you're so upset about?? If you're just talking generally about inaccurate ethnic labeling, I think we can agree that people everywhere make these kinds of mistakes. Even in England.

I replied that some (note the word some) people used the term African-American to denote Black. I also specifically referred to actors not characters because I was proposing a possible answer to your post by providing an example of the misuse of the term African American. Your response about the location of Nigeria did not make sense to me and still doesn't. So clearly you misunderstood my response.
I don't think it does mean anything else and did not say I do. However as I indicated I do think some people may be starting to use it in a generic way to mean Black. Note that in colonial times the word Nigerian was corrupted to become a slang word that is now unacceptable in the US.
I think the misuse of the term to indicate anyone, not just a US citizen, who is black has for “some” people become an accepted practice. I think it is in the process of becoming US slang for Black and thus subject to accidentally being used in reference to non-US people. Similar to the way that, through frequent misuse, “American” is now often understood by many to mean “US Citizen“. Note that trying to explain or theorize about this process does not mean I accept the misuse as proper.

Well Bono is probably better known than many actors and perhaps not a good example of this mistake, but do you really think that if he were in a US show he would object to people mistaking his show character for Irish-American? Would taking that as an insult mean he is biased? If you were an English actor and were dealing with a group of people (people who considered American to be a polite term) you would be insulted if they assumed your show character was American but you have no problem with Americans? I guess we are still miscommunicating.

I really don't see a big deal in mistaking an English speaking Black for an African-American. The US does have a substantial English heritage and similar language (Look at the Jelly vs Jam thread to see it is not the same language). I don't think it means US citizens have no concept of where Nigeria is or assume everyone wants to be a US citizen, . It means some of them mistook an Englishman for a US American and tacked on the word African to indicate black. I don't see that as discounting his English heritage based on skin color. I see it as a natural mistake that should not upset anyone who does not have a problem with being mistaken for a US Citizen.
The big deal is that it is quite simply incorrect to describe a non American person as American and makes the person using the expresion appear ignorant. Why is this so hard to understand?
And yes I am sure Bono would take issue at being called Irish American because again, quite simply he is not American.

I think the whole point is that if it is important for an African-American to be called African-American, for example, then people of other nationalities and races should be offered the same courtesy ... without people making assumptions - through ignorance - about their heritage.

I mean, it's not as if it's difficult to check your facts before posting.

And it is a big deal to many people.
If it wasn't a big deal then we wouldn't use these distinctions in the first place.

nynaeve - I just looked through the thread; nobody ever even called Eko "African American". So I don't really understand what you're so upset about?? If you're just talking generally about inaccurate ethnic labeling, I think we can agree that people everywhere make these kinds of mistakes. Even in England.
I never said I read it in this thread. But one or two people in this thread refered to the new character as African American and that is what started it. I have seen the actor AAA described as African American many times and I have seen the character of Eko described as African American. I cannot understand how a Nigerian man could be described as American. I wish to make it clear that again I am talking about the character not the actor. I did not accuse anyone on this thread of using this term for him. I just pointed out how much this annoys me.

Since when has Nigeria not been part of Africa?
It annoys me when people refer to non American black people as African American because it shows total ignorance of the fact that there is a world out there filled by people that aren't American, have never been to America, will never go to America and yet somehow manage to survive just fine.
Sorry for the rant, but it's this sort of attitude that perpetuates all the negative American stereotypes.

and what about the African-Americans who are not African, have never been to Africa and will never go to Africa?
as far as XXXXX the 'chuter is concerned, if her ethnicity is important to the plot of Lost, fine with me, otherwise it doesn't matter. All that matters is if she can act. And so far all we've heard her say is "Desmond...". She may fall into a coma next week. Ya never know.
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Not sure where you are from. I somewhat agree with what you have said. A lot of Americans don't have a world view, this is a serious problem. However, part of the reason that American's refer to every black person as African-American is because it has been so drilled into our heads that referring to any black person as anything other than African-American is insulting. It becomes so second nature that it is the term that is automatically said, it is not coming from a bad place that a person is accidentally mislabeled. It is just a confusing issue, as I have also have friends from Jamaica and Trinidad that are technically not African-Americans, but refer to themselves as such. It is not meant to be an insult, but sometimes it is safer to label someone with a term that is considered safe in the society that we live in than to try and guess where someone comes from.

it's funny how politically correct is sometimes still incorrect.
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I certainly hope the casting of this actress was not merely because of her race.

I tend to agree with the people who have said that "black" people are not the only people that can create "diversity." This show features two Korean people relatively prominently, which is much more rare in American television than featuring black characters, and yet everyone still goes on and on about the lack of diversity. Granted, two Korean characters don't exactly make for a diversity bonanza, but it is something, and I think it's unfortunate that it is often overlooked because two or three black actors have noticeably left the show.

Kiele Sanchez is half Puerto Rican. I didn't hear many (or any?) people advocating Nikki's survival because she brings diversity to the cast. Instead I heard complaints about how she's just another "pretty face" and how she was a terrible, annoying character. So what it is? Do we want diversity, or does it have to be specific diversity tailored to our personal tastes? Are we more concerned with color than we are with culture?

Finally, I don't buy "Scottish people are just white people with accents" as a shot at this show's diversity. Just because some people aren't black doesn't mean they can't offer cultural diversity. I've never been to Scotland or Iraq. I've never met someone from Brazil. Watching this show, I feel like I'm getting a mini around the world experience. No, it's not the FULLEST experience I could possibly get, but I think it's a pretty good one. It's not exactly like sitting at the Central Perk on Thursday nights.

Bryce, did you really just say "what it is?" ? lol i agree with your statement. And as a black, non-African, African-American, I can say that I watched Friends faithfully....(and Seinfeld too until the incident.....j/k, i still watch the reruns).

But one or two people in this thread refered to the new character as African American and that is what started it. Luckily I think my reaction to her in this thread was limited to "she appears to be cute". I don't feel like reading it again to confirm.The big deal is that it is quite simply incorrect to describe a non American person as American and makes the person using the expresion appear ignorant. Why is this so hard to understand?
And yes I am sure Bono would take issue at being called Irish American because again, quite simply he is not American.So what if he is Irish. I didn't ask if he would take offense at being called Irish-American. I asked "do you really think that if he were in a US show he would object to people mistaking his show character for Irish-American?" I am sure Bono would know the difference between who he is and who he is playing the part of. Apparently you disagree about his having this ability.

In the US it is common for people to refer to themselves with a cultural hyphen i.e. Irish-American, Arab-American, German-American, Japanese-American and gasp African-American. Your concern at a few people mistakenly calling an Englishman of African heritage African-American appears to rest more with the English/American confusion than with the African question. Everyone who looks closely knows the character was supposed to be Nigerian. Mistaking an Englishman for an American does not seem like a great big mistake at least to those of us in the US it doesn't. Perhaps you English are more sensitive to such nuances and errors.

I suppose I should have used Tarzan as an example of cultural confusion. Weissmuller was a “American” (possibly even a German-American?) playing an Englishman who was raised in Africa. Would you be upset if Johnny Weissmuller was mistakenly called an African-Englishman?

I suspect the Portuguese language connection could prove important for the new character. I do not think she is Portuguese-American but I suspect she could prove to be Brazilian.

Luckily I think my reaction to her in this thread was limited to "she appears to be cute". I don't feel like reading it again to confirm.So what if he is Irish. I didn't ask if he would take offense at being called Irish-American. I asked "do you really think that if he were in a US show he would object to people mistaking his show character for Irish-American?" I am sure Bono would know the difference between who he is and who he is playing the part of. Apparently you disagree about his having this ability.

In the US it is common for people to refer to themselves with a cultural hyphen i.e. Irish-American, Arab-American, German-American, Japanese-American and gasp African-American. Your concern at a few people mistakenly calling an Englishman of African heritage African-American appears to rest more with the English/American confusion than with the African question. Everyone who looks closely knows the character was supposed to be Nigerian. Mistaking an Englishman for an American does not seem like a great big mistake at least to those of us in the US it doesn't. Perhaps you English are more sensitive to such nuances and errors.

I suppose I should have used Tarzan as an example of cultural confusion. Weissmuller was a “American” (possibly even a German-American?) playing an Englishman who was raised in Africa. Would you be upset if Johnny Weissmuller was mistakenly called an African-Englishman?

I suspect the Portuguese language connection could prove important for the new character. I do not think she is Portuguese-American but I suspect she could prove to be Brazilian.
You asked if I thought Bono would mind his character (if he was in a show) being MISTAKEN for Irish American - the use of the word mistaken implys that his character wasn't Irish American, so I replied accordingly.

I have to concede that clearly you have been unable to grasp what I am trying to say, and the reasons I object so I will try and put it another way.
The words Afircan and American I have no problem with whatsoever - if used for an African American person. It is calling someone by an incorrect nationality that I object to, my use of the Eko character was JUST an example of this. I would equally object if an American was described as English incorrectly. To me it is just rude to think it's ok to do this.
As I seem to understand it, the defence for using African American incorrectly is that it is better to use it than risk offending an American Black person?
But it is no big deal to offend black people from other countries by not using their correct nationality? Infact in an earlier post you go as far as to imply that to wish to be known by your own nationality and not American by default, sugests you have a problem with America and or Americans!
The point I am trying to make is it's not so much the American bit I object to, it is the omiting of a persons actual nationality and then replacing it with ones own nationality - in this case American.
Surely the reason people started to use terms like African American was out of courtesy and sensitivity to peoples feelings, you seem to be able to accept this, but can't understand why a non American/English/French/Chinese person would object to being called American/English/French/Chinese? Surely it is exactly the same principle?!
I also concede that there is very little point in continuing this debate as it would appear that you will never understand the point I am making and quite frankly if you don't get what I'm trying to say by now - you never will.

Without getting into the semantics going on - I just wanted to say that Marsha Thompson is a great actress - having seen her on a few tv programmes in the UK and catching her a bit on Las Vegas. I assume she was picked for her acting abilities which she has copious amounts of. That fact that shes is British Afro-Caribbean or mixed race should have no bearing on this. And since she is an actress so what if she 'acts' and pretends to be Portuguese, Hispanic or Brazilian - which we are all assuming. I am sure she will do a better job of it than the woman trying to assume a Scottish accent in Catch-22 which was painful :P
And there is such a thing as being too politically correct.

Without getting into the semantics going on - I just wanted to say that Marsha Thompson is a great actress - having seen her on a few tv programmes in the UK and catching her a bit on Las Vegas. I assume she was picked for her acting abilities which she has copious amounts of. That fact that shes is British Afro-Caribbean or mixed race should have no bearing on this. And since she is an actress so what if she 'acts' and pretends to be Portuguese, Hispanic or Brazilian - which we are all assuming. I am sure she will do a better job of it than the woman trying to assume a Scottish accent in Catch-22 which was painful :P
And there is such a thing as being too politically correct.Great she sounds like a good addition to the show. Thanks for the info.
.....The point I am trying to make is it's not so much the American bit I object to, it is the omiting of a persons actual nationality and then replacing it with ones own nationality - in this case American..........That's fair and I do understand that continuing to use an incorrect nationality in reference to a person can be considered insulting. I felt you were reacting to a different situation. One where people initially made the mistake of assuming a new black actor on a show written in the US, recorded in the US and broadcast in the US might be from the US. I did not see it as your referencing a continuing problem which affected my view of your post. I apologize if we have been debating a misunderstanding of each others point of view rather than a valid difference. I may have over reacted but the sarcastic remark of "Since when has Nigeria not been part of Africa?" struck me as rude, abrasive and insulting towards my attempt at answering a question.

For my take on your original posts I would ask you to pretend we are discussing a show written in England, recorded in England and broadcast on an English network with a cast that is internationally and ethnically mixed but largely English. How would you react if someone came on line and said, "How dare people assume the new black actor/character might be English! That’s insulting to the actor and makes the people look ignorant"? In my opinion if they continued to call that actor English after it became clear he/she was not, there would be an implied insult. But if the mistake was limited to the earlier episodes it would not be an implied insult. I was posting from the viewpoint of the mistaken nationality being limited to earlier episodes before the character/actor was well known.

Also the fact of the matter is that Eko spoke in an American accent. Americans might have trouble picking this up as to them it would just sound African, but I'm sure that any British or Australian people can hear this. Unless you had outside knowledge of AAA as a person, the logical assumption would be that he is an African immigrant living in the US.

Also the fact of the matter is that Eko spoke in an American accent. Americans might have trouble picking this up as to them it would just sound African, but I'm sure that any British or Australian people can hear this. Unless you had outside knowledge of AAA as a person, the logical assumption would be that he is an African immigrant living in the US.

No. I'm British and I didn't catch even the slightest hint of an American accent.

No. I'm British and I didn't catch even the slightest hint of an American accent.

How about Sun?? Do you think she has an American accent?? It's the same thing with Eko, except that the African accent is a little stronger than Sun's Korean accent, so it might be a little harder to tell whats "underneath". Do you see what I'm saying?? The accent you might have from your first language is independent of the type of English that you learn; you can have both accents at the same time.

No. I'm British and I didn't catch even the slightest hint of an American accent.LOL I am in the NW part of the US and when I hear news from the East Coast I sometimes think the people sound funny plus the last time I traveled to the SE part of the US (New Orleans) I had trouble understanding some of the people because of the difference in accent. Not as much difference as between say Barbados and the US, but a difference was there. I am not sure what an American accent would be? there are so many I think it would be hard to pick one as typical.

The last person I knew who was directly from Africa (Kenya) spoke with very little if any accent as far as I could tell. With Canadians I can at least frequently detect a difference in word usage or meaning. But could I tell the difference between a Canadian accent and an English one? I really doubt it as I am not familiar with the differences that might exist.

On a true confessions note: in the first episode I thought Evangeline Lily might be from the US. :biggrin:

Sun? Yunjin Kim grew up in New York didn't she?

How about Sun?? Do you think she has an American accent?? It's the same thing with Eko, except that the African accent is a little stronger than Sun's Korean accent, so it might be a little harder to tell whats "underneath". Do you see what I'm saying?? The accent you might have from your first language is independent of the type of English that you learn; you can have both accents at the same time.

No, I don't see what you're saying at all.

Firstly, what possible reason would a British actor, with an English accent, have to give an American accent to a Nigerian? It doesn't make sense.

Secondly, a Nigerian would not have an American accent, either from a first language or from a 'learned' dialect. The reason? The official language of Nigeria is English, Nigeria formerly having been a colony of the UK. There would be no reason for any of it's inhabitants to learn English with an American accent.

LOL I am in the NW part of the US and when I hear news from the East Coast I sometimes think the people sound funny plus the last time I traveled to the SE part of the US (New Orleans) I had trouble understanding some of the people because of the difference in accent. Not as much difference as between say Barbados and the US, but a difference was there. I am not sure what an American accent would be? there are so many I think it would be hard to pick one as typical.

Of course you are right that there are regional variations in the English spoken throughout America. Standard American English, or TV Enlgish, is spoken with a Midwestern accent.

Sun? Younjin Kim grew up in New York didn't she?

Yeah she is. The point I way trying to make is that it's possible to have two accents at once; you can speak British English with a Korean accent, or American English with a Korean accent.

Practically speaking, I'm guessing that AAA came up with Eko's accent by borrowing from a Nigerian accent (his folks are Nigerian) and watering it down with an American accent as to make it more palatable for a television audience, which was American.

This is not a unique phenomena. Actors adjust the accents that they have naturally depending on the role that they're playing. They even take classes for it. Another example from Lost would be Naveen Andrews. The difference between his accent and Sayid's is astounding. Again, I think it's done just because it's an American show, and the producers want it to jibe with their audience as much as possible.

Secondly, a Nigerian would not have an American accent, either from a first language or from a 'learned' dialect. The reason? The official language of Nigeria is English, Nigeria formerly having been a colony of the UK. There would be no reason for any of it's inhabitants to learn English with an American accent.

While English is the offical language of Nigeria, there are very few native speakers, most of whom are a members of a small urban elite. This would not be Eko.

I'm not trying to say that real people who speak English in Nigeria do so with an American accent. I was only saying that if someone didn't know anything about AAA, they might assume that he was an African immigrant living in the US because of the accent AAA used in the show, which was partially American. I'm not saying it's logical for him to use an American accent either; that's just the way television works.

The official language of Nigeria is English, Nigeria formerly having been a colony of the UK. There would be no reason for any of it's inhabitants to learn English with an American accent.Just having fun here not trying to make a real point but The official language of the US is English, many eastern parts of the US formerly having been a colony of the UK. There would be no reason for any of it's inhabitants to learn English with an American accent. :biggrin:

Claire is still a pretty tough cookie, she may get the pointy end of the stick from the others but she is not weak.




Based on what???
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I think the whole point is that if it is important for an African-American to be called African-American, for example, then people of other nationalities and races should be offered the same courtesy ... without people making assumptions - through ignorance - about their heritage.

I mean, it's not as if it's difficult to check your facts before posting.

And it is a big deal to many people.
If it wasn't a big deal then we wouldn't use these distinctions in the first place.


I believe some people are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy too sensitive about these things. I couldn't give a crap one way or another what you would call a person.

^You should care^. I for one would not like to be called anything but my name. I also don't want people to assume what race or what my ethnic background is because it is so diverse it cannot be easily referenced or categorized.

If you reread my original post, you'll find I stated that I had seen Mr Eko (as apposed to AAA) described as African American. You replied that this term was used to denote a non African born black person, so clearly you misunderstood my comment.
I would also like to ask you how African American can mean anything other than a person of African/American heritage?
I agree that the term American could be used to describe anyone from North, Central or South America, but an English or Australian person too? Come on that is just ludicrous.
It would be like the character of Michael or Harold the actor that plays him, being described as African English, then claiming the fault was with the person querying the validity of that statement bacause he is black and speaks English, regardless of the fact he is probably happy and proud to be American.

I have no problem with America or Americans, I just happen to be English and would find it offensive to have my own nationality discounted and replaced as American just because of the colour of my skin.
As Suedehead said would it be ok to describe Bono from U2 as Irish American? Would it be Ok to call Charlie/Dom American? Or is it only black people that must accept this discourtesy and be told they are at fault for misunderstanding and thinking that American should just mean American?
.

You give no indication where in England you are from, but you are really simplifying things over here in the US. I live in the suburbs on NYC, one of the most diverse places on the Earth, I lived in Queens (the most diverse borough in NYC), and I worked in midtown Manhatten (6 blocks north of times square) for 2+ years. The line that white people have to tread over here is a really fine one. The political correctness machine has become such a problem that there is a socially conscience label for every type pf person. The problem is, every person wants to be labeled as something different. It is not out of ignorance, but out of fear of the possible reprecussions of getting it wrong that create an environment where we go ahead with the most socially accepted label. Unfortunately, there is not enough time to get to know the specific ancestral history of every single person that you encounter, so it is easier to say 'African-American'. There might be a few people that get offended, but it is better than the possible firestorm that could happen if we went back to saying black people or just tried to guess at possible nationalities. This is a problem that is pretty much isloated to the US. Don't knock us until you have had to wade in the waters of minority political correctness, cause last time I checked, the term African-English wasn't really forced into the collective conscienceness of the white English population.

Getting back to the new cast member, let's just all hope that she is a good actress that furthers along the story, and hopefully answers a question or three :)

LOL molly1977 we should give it up. Anyone who can take a statement about stereotyping based on a misunderstanding of slang is the fault of both sides and change it into claiming the fault was with the person querying the validity of that statement isn’t seeing our (or at least my) side of the debate.

"What we have here is a failure to communicate."

Great she sounds like a good addition to the show. Thanks for the info.
That's fair and I do understand that continuing to use an incorrect nationality in reference to a person can be considered insulting. I felt you were reacting to a different situation. One where people initially made the mistake of assuming a new black actor on a show written in the US, recorded in the US and broadcast in the US might be from the US. I did not see it as your referencing a continuing problem which affected my view of your post. I apologize if we have been debating a misunderstanding of each others point of view rather than a valid difference. I may have over reacted but the sarcastic remark of "Since when has Nigeria not been part of Africa?" struck me as rude, abrasive and insulting towards my attempt at answering a question.

For my take on your original posts I would ask you to pretend we are discussing a show written in England, recorded in England and broadcast on an English network with a cast that is internationally and ethnically mixed but largely English. How would you react if someone came on line and said, "How dare people assume the new black actor/character might be English! That’s insulting to the actor and makes the people look ignorant"? In my opinion if they continued to call that actor English after it became clear he/she was not, there would be an implied insult. But if the mistake was limited to the earlier episodes it would not be an implied insult. I was posting from the viewpoint of the mistaken nationality being limited to earlier episodes before the character/actor was well known.
Fogey, yes we have been totally misunderstanding each other and I see what you mean about my since when has Nigeria not been in Africa comment. That was meant towards people that still describe Eko (the character) as African American. I apologise for the way it came across.
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You give no indication where in England you are from, but you are really simplifying things over here in the US. I live in the suburbs on NYC, one of the most diverse places on the Earth, I lived in Queens (the most diverse borough in NYC), and I worked in midtown Manhatten (6 blocks north of times square) for 2+ years. The line that white people have to tread over here is a really fine one. The political correctness machine has become such a problem that there is a socially conscience label for every type pf person. The problem is, every person wants to be labeled as something different. It is not out of ignorance, but out of fear of the possible reprecussions of getting it wrong that create an environment where we go ahead with the most socially accepted label. Unfortunately, there is not enough time to get to know the specific ancestral history of every single person that you encounter, so it is easier to say 'African-American'. There might be a few people that get offended, but it is better than the possible firestorm that could happen if we went back to saying black people or just tried to guess at possible nationalities. This is a problem that is pretty much isloated to the US. Don't knock us until you have had to wade in the waters of minority political correctness, cause last time I checked, the term African-English wasn't really forced into the collective conscienceness of the white English population.

Getting back to the new cast member, let's just all hope that she is a good actress that furthers along the story, and hopefully answers a question or three :)
I am referring to people that KNOW a person or character isn't American, but still call them American. I am not talking about the average black person in the US being called African American, this is logical and obviously I wouldn't object to that.
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LOL molly1977 we should give it up. Anyone who can take a statement about stereotyping based on a misunderstanding of slang is the fault of both sides and change it into claiming the fault was with the person querying the validity of that statement isn’t seeing our (or at least my) side of the debate.

"What we have here is a failure to communicate."
Again I think there was a misunderstanding here.
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Also the fact of the matter is that Eko spoke in an American accent. Americans might have trouble picking this up as to them it would just sound African, but I'm sure that any British or Australian people can hear this. Unless you had outside knowledge of AAA as a person, the logical assumption would be that he is an African immigrant living in the US.
I don't understand this at all.
I have never picked up even a trace of an American accent from Eko. His Nigerian accent is perhaps not as strong as it would be in real life, thus ensuring he is understood. But I can't see why he would use an American accent.I I see no evidence that he did.

LOL molly1977 we should give it up. Anyone who can take a statement about stereotyping based on a misunderstanding of slang is the fault of both sides and change it into claiming the fault was with the person querying the validity of that statement isn’t seeing our (or at least my) side of the debate.

"What we have here is a failure to communicate."

Agreed.

I am referring to people that KNOW a person or character isn't American, but still call them American. I am not talking about the average black person in the US being called African American, this is logical and obviously I wouldn't object to that.
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Again I think there was a misunderstanding here.
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I don't understand this at all.
I have never picked up even a trace of an American accent from Eko. His Nigerian accent is perhaps not as strong as it would be in real life, thus ensuring he is understood. But I can't see why he would use an American accent.I I see no evidence that he did.

Thanks I missed your point as much as you missed mine, we were talking about 2 different things. Guess I got so busy trying to state my side. I forgot to stop and really look at what you were actually saying. :redface: It looks like we may actually be in agreement on a lot of this. Also like you I did not pick up on an American accent with AAA/Eko. But actors often lose or change their accent since movies, TV & theatre work involves them in a world wide employment.

^You should care^. I for one would not like to be called anything but my name. I also don't want people to assume what race or what my ethnic background is because it is so diverse it cannot be easily referenced or categorized.


I choose not to care. A person's ethnicity is trivial and pointless in the long run. It by no means defines your abilities as a person or how you contribute to society. Yet this is an issue that everyone eats up like candy. Not everyone is going to get along with one another whether they have good reasons for it or not. That's life. As far as I see it as long as a person harps on ethnicity, they are only part of the problem. I choose to look beyond all the nonsense and just focus on a person's character. It really is a lot easier that way. :cool:

There is a substantial evidence that Naomi is, in fact, Brazilian. In Catch-22 when Desmond holds the book, it is possible to read some of the text on it.
The logo of Record publishing company, a Brazilian publishing company can be
seen at the bottom of the cover.
Also, being Brazilian myself, I can confirm that "Eu não estou só" (that Mikhail translated as "Thanks for saving me") does mean "I am not alone", but with a very unusual accent, that is not common in Brazil and doesn't seem to be from Portugal either.
Other than these evidences, it's very hard to tell wether someone is from Brazil or not just by the appearance, because we've got LOTS of diversity here. While most are caucasian white, there are lots of black people of african origins, asiatics and even some hispanic from our neighbour countries, like Bolivia or Paraguai.