Why can't pregnant mothers just have abortions? Or are they saying that they would STILL die for some reason? Maybe no one would perform one on her because they want to continue research and try to fix the problem?

Because radical conservatives would freak out, probably.

I never thought of that. Drat, that puts new questions into my brain.

Perhaps the whole reason is that the Others wanted to see how far the women could get in pregnancy. Now that we know Ben is behind Juliet helping Sun, we can conclude that abortion won't be suggested to Sun, unless the bright girl comes up with the idea herself.

I was thinking that same thing during the episode. I'm wondering if the mother's would still die for some odd reason?

wow I never even thought of that! I guess if no one has made it to the third trimester, the kid is a goner either way, but an abortion would at least save the mother. I bet no one ever comes up with this idea in the show.

I hope they explain this, too. Whether or not Ben is a right-to-lifer, the question of terminating the pregnancy to save her life should have occurred to Sun immediately. Instead she's all ga-ga over the fetus (which will die before birth) being her husband's.

I know ABC doesn't want to get into an abortion debate, which is why the writers should invent some explanation that the fatal consequences start at conception and then can't be stopped.

Cardie

Yeah, I was thinking about an abortion during the episode, too. And then I felt bad for thinking about it. So I think that kind of might be the case...when abortion is discussed NO ONE agrees on it. Think of all the Others in one room arguing about it. It was probably easier for them to all just agree to keep the baby alive and continue research. Even the mothers probably agreed to this.

Good point. Now I admittedly don't know a whole lot about this, so if someone knows more than I do please feel free to put me in my place, but it's my understanding that as far as surgical procedures go an abortion is actually very simple. It would seem that they have the necessary facilities on the Island.

And I don't think the conservatives would be able to complain, because this is one of those rare situations where the pregnancy would harm the mothers health. I think usually when people propose making abortion illegal, or in parts of the world where it is illegal, scenarios such as this one are one of the only exceptions.

Well, it's hardly a moral issue, since there's no possibility of a live birth anyway.

I think it has to do with the "It happens at conception" part--the process (poisoning, if you will) has already been set in motion at conception.

But I'm starting to get a little tired of figuring out my own explanations for the plot holes.

She isn't going to kill their baby. She's going to hope that they will be rescued or that something will happen in the next two months that changes things. Two months on Lost could take another whole season.

I hope they explain this, too. Whether or not Ben is a right-to-lifer, the question of terminating the pregnancy to save her life should have occurred to Sun immediately. Instead she's all ga-ga over the fetus (which will die before birth) being her husband's.

I know ABC doesn't want to get into an abortion debate, which is why the writers should invent some explanation that the fatal consequences start at conception and then can't be stopped.

Cardie


Actually the abortion thing has already be convered. Juliet said in One Of US that she is almost certin whatever kills the moters happens at conception and that's why she is useless in preventing the mothers from dying.

I know ABC doesn't want to get into an abortion debate, which is why the writers should invent some explanation that the fatal consequences start at conception and then can't be stopped.

Cardie

There's your answer. Time for some more creative writing.

Actually the abortion thing has already be convered. Juliet said in One Of US that she is almost certin whatever kills the moters happens at conception and that's why she is useless in preventing the mothers from dying.

Right. That's true. But if you abort the fetus would the problem that started at conception continue? :undecide: I really don't know.

Either way, I think it's true that ABC will not want this debate to be brought up in the episode, but I do agree that the abortion issue will be pushed to the side by Sun saying that she hopes they will be rescued and that she will then be able to live and the baby will live too.
I think that we may see that the parachutist is possibly linked to rescue (Pen's team?) and if not, that Pen is still looking for them anyway. And the possible rescue will be one major plot, and Sun's life/pregnancy will be another major plot, and the two will move in tandem over the course of the next 1-2 seasons. Sun (and us) wondering if rescue will happen in time.

Why can't pregnant mothers just have abortions? Or are they saying that they would STILL die for some reason? Maybe no one would perform one on her because they want to continue research and try to fix the problem?

Because my avatar says "No"!

Because radical conservatives would freak out, probably.

oh my word, could you just imagine?!

what would be next?!
Save the Boars! Eat a Mango!!!

I think Sun is hopeful that something will change and she'll be able to have the baby, especially now that she's convinced the baby is Jin's. I don't think she trusts Juliet to do an abortion on her either. I know I wouldn't. We also don't know if Juliet had done any abortions on the Others. We just "know" about the 9 pregnancies that ended in the death of the mother and, presumably, the babies.

Actually the abortion thing has already be convered. Juliet said in One Of US that she is almost certin whatever kills the moters happens at conception and that's why she is useless in preventing the mothers from dying.

Juliet said the mothers body treats the baby as a foreign attacker (or something similar). If they aborted it, I don't see why death would still happen.

Maybe I'm just in a bad mood tonight, but c'mon guys... Has it escaped you all that it's very important for Ben that children be born on the island? Because if children aren't born the others are going to die out? That's why they're taking children. Giving out abortions is anathema to having children born on the island. Their goal is not to save the mothers, but to figure out what is causing the pregnancy to kill the mother for the purpose of being able to produce new children.

And for those who don't know, an abortion is an actual risky surgery. Done without proper tools, facilities and sterilization, the patient can die.

It may be that due to the way the Island affects pregnancy that abortion isn't an escape from the deadly effect. I was wondering earlier if that wasn't what Ethan was attempting to do during the surgery portion of Juliet's flashback.

Yes the patient CAN die, but abortion is a rather simple, outpatient procedure. However, miscarriage can be induced via various herbal remedies and is actually very effective. Simply overdosing on Vitamin C can induce miscarriage up to 10 weeks. Abortifacients have been in use for thousands of years.

And since Sun seems to know all kinds of herbal remedies for things, I think it might come up that while she might not get a surgical abortion, which may require tools beyond what the island has, she may still consider aborting via a homeopathic method.

And for those who don't know, an abortion is an actual risky surgery. Done without proper tools, facilities and sterilization, the patient can die.
And if it ISN'T done, the patient is gonna be dead in two months.

I'm very much anti-abortion. But they need to at least address the issue. Has an abortion been TRIED before? Was it not possible? Why not? Because given the situation, I'd at least want to TRY to save the mom's life, since both mom and baby are doomed if nothing is done!

I hate saying that.

But isn't anyone on the SHOW going to?

Juliet said the mothers body treats the baby as a foreign attacker (or something similar). If they aborted it, I don't see why death would still happen.


Except that if it starts at conception like Juliet says it means death upon conception. Its like when someone gets cancer. When they get it they can remove, but eventually in most cases eventually it will come back. So its like a disease that starts at conception and will kill them with the baby or without the baby.


Also another thing to consider , which I am suprised no one else in the medical field mentioned is unless you actually have the equipment for abortions, doing one with the proper tools is very, very dangerous for the mother. So unless the island has tools need to abort the baby and completly expung the fetus and placenta you run the high risk of complications to the mother which could easily lead to death via infection(huge possiblity), hemorrhage from uterus and placenta(another huge possibility) or rupture of the vena cava which would lead to hemorrhage and shock within minutes. So unless they have the tools necessary for an abortion then it basically turns into one of those back alley abortions where the mother usually ends up in the hospital.

And if it ISN'T done, the patient is gonna be dead in two months.

I'm very much anti-abortion. But they need to at least address the issue. Has an abortion been TRIED before? Was it not possible? Why not? Because given the situation, I'd at least want to TRY to save the mom's life, since both mom and baby are doomed if nothing is done!

I hate saying that.

But isn't anyone on the SHOW going to?

Again, Ben doesn't care about the mothers dying, except that it means that no children are being born. Their survival doesn't matter to him at all, only that children are born successfully, and if mothers die in that process, he's OK with that. We've already seen it.

If the outcome is mothers die, Ben is upset because there are no new kids to carry on their way of life.
If the outcome is kids born, Ben is happy because there are new kids.

It has nothing to do with the mothers, and everything to do with the kids. And an abortion is not going to accomplish a successful birth.

I would bet that wouldn't even cross her mind - she heard the heartbeat - she probably wouldn't even consider it

Not to mention the fact the sponsors would run like crazy from that one!

I think that they die no matter what, abortion or not.
But really, the show isn't going to have anything about abortion, so it doesn't really matter.

Yes the patient CAN die, but abortion is a rather simple, outpatient procedure. However, miscarriage can be induced via various herbal remedies and is actually very effective. Simply overdosing on Vitamin C can induce miscarriage up to 10 weeks. Abortifacients have been in use for thousands of years.

And since Sun seems to know all kinds of herbal remedies for things, I think it might come up that while she might not get a surgical abortion, which may require tools beyond what the island has, she may still consider aborting via a homeopathic method.

Abortion is far, fra from a simple procedure.

ALso the problem with trying to induce a miscarriage is two things. Trying to miscarriage is a 50/50 shot. Your just as likely to make the fetus mental retarded as your are of killing it. Also anytime the fetus is in distress, the mother's body go at it trying to save it, evebn if that means comprimising her own body.

If miscarriages and abortions were so easy they there wouldn't have been all those deaths from so called back alley abortions prior to Roe v Wade.

Abortions and miscarriages are anything but simple.

Maybe I'm just in a bad mood tonight, but c'mon guys... Has it escaped you all that it's very important for Ben that children be born on the island? Because if children aren't born the others are going to die out? That's why they're taking children. Giving out abortions is anathema to having children born on the island. Their goal is not to save the mothers, but to figure out what is causing the pregnancy to kill the mother for the purpose of being able to produce new children.

And for those who don't know, an abortion is an actual risky surgery. Done without proper tools, facilities and sterilization, the patient can die.


Yes, the abortion issue didn't even occur to me because in Juliets Flashback when her and Ethan Lost the pregnant other woman Ben said (I can't remember her name) CHOOSE to become pregnant. So these other women obviously know the risks and choose to become pregnant for experiemental reasons or for Jacob or whatever.

Except that if it starts at conception like Juliet says it means death upon conception. Its like when someone gets cancer. When they get it they can remove, but eventually in most cases eventually it will come back. So its like a disease that starts at conception and will kill them with the baby or without the baby.


Also another thing to consider , which I am suprised no one else in the medical field mentioned is unless you actually have the equipment for abortions, doing one with the proper tools is very, very dangerous for the mother. So unless the island has tools need to abort the baby and completly expung the fetus and placenta you run the high risk of complications to the mother which could easily lead to death via infection(huge possiblity), hemorrhage from uterus and placenta(another huge possibility) or rupture of the vena cava which would lead to hemorrhage and shock within minutes. So unless they have the tools necessary for an abortion then it basically turns into one of those back alley abortions where the mother usually ends up in the hospital.

We've seen them preform spinal surgery on the Island, perhaps the most complicated of complicated surgeries. I think they can handle an abortion.

GodBlessTexas - Your argument about Ben wanting babies doesn't really make any sense. The mothers die at 4 and a half months. No way is Ben getting any babies unless they can do something about that.

Maybe I'm just in a bad mood tonight, but c'mon guys... Has it escaped you all that it's very important for Ben that children be born on the island? Because if children aren't born the others are going to die out? That's why they're taking children. Giving out abortions is anathema to having children born on the island. Their goal is not to save the mothers, but to figure out what is causing the pregnancy to kill the mother for the purpose of being able to produce new children.



Thank-you :rolleyes:
Unfortunately, Ben see's the losties as lab mice to be experimented upon and doesn't care about their health. His only concern with Juliette is that she finds a way to enable women to carry to term so that HIS PEOPLE can reproduce and completely isolate themselves from the world.

I don't think Juliette is too comfortable with this though. I predict that Juliette is going to have to make a choice between her own motives and saving the lives of people she's starting to care about.

Also, I think the child stealing thing is to boost thier ranks with unspoiled fresh new minds but there's more going on there. They said they got what they wanted from Walt and far more than they expected, even though they let him go. DNA for cloning maybe?

We've seen them preform spinal surgery on the Island, perhaps the most complicated of complicated surgeries. I think they can handle an abortion.

GodBlessTexas - Your argument about Ben wanting babies doesn't really make any sense. The mothers die at 4 and a half months. No way is Ben getting any babies unless they can do something about that.

Actually spinal surgery and abortions are like life and death. Complete opposites. Only, only an OBGYN can do an abortion. Also like I said before there is so much that goes into an abortion that unless Juliet was trained to abort fetuses which note, not every OBGYN is trained to do and they had all the equipment they needed, an abortion would be very, very hard to do.

Just to put it in further perspective how different being a surgon and a OBGYN is ask any med doctor about pregnecy's and giving birth and they will look at you like your speaking aramic. Unless in med school it is very rare for a doctor to do anything that revolves around a pregnet mother. Hell paramedics deliver and deal with more births, abortions and newborns than docs unless OBGYN do.

I don't know where you get your info from but talk to anyone in the medical field and they will tell you abortion is far from a simple thing.

GodBlessTexas - Your argument about Ben wanting babies doesn't really make any sense. The mothers die at 4 and a half months. No way is Ben getting any babies unless they can do something about that.

What in the heck are you talking about? That's why they brought Juliet there in the first place; to find out why pregnancy is killing women on the island! While the mother surviving is part of a successful birth (but not necessarily), but the ends he truly wants to achieve are children born on the island. If they give abortions at 4 months, the only difference between that and what was happening naturally is that the mother survives, but the mothers dying is acceptable to Ben until they can get one that survives until birth. I'm not exactly sure why that's a hard concept. Again, Ben wants the women to survive, but only because he wants them to deliver the babies. The outcome he wants is full term births, but not necessarily the survival of the mothers. They are not mutually exclusive, true, but the ends are what is important to Ben, not the means. Having abortions to save the mother's life doesn't accomplish his goal, and again, Juliet was trying to keep the mothers alive during pregnancy.
100%
Thank-you :rolleyes:
Unfortunately, Ben see's the losties as lab mice to be experimented upon and doesn't care about their health. His only concern with Juliette is that she finds a way to enable women to carry to term so that HIS PEOPLE can reproduce and completely isolate themselves from the world.

Not only the losties, but his own people as well from before the crash. Of course, the women supposedly all got pregnant of their own free will.


I don't think Juliette is too comfortable with this though. I predict that Juliette is going to have to make a choice between her own motives and saving the lives of people she's starting to care about.I think it's already been established that Juliet is powerless to do anything about it, as she lost the other 9 mothers on the island.

Also, I think the child stealing thing is to boost thier ranks with unspoiled fresh new minds but there's more going on there. They said they got what they wanted from Walt and far more than they expected, even though they let him go. DNA for cloning maybe?I always to take it to mean that they knew Walt was special, but that he proved to be more than they could handle.

To anyone saying that performing an abortion is out of the question because of risk issues, is just ridiculous. This is an island where anything can happen. This is an island financed with millions of dollars. The "proper tools and people" are not problems. If there aren't abortions, it's because they don't want abortions.

Sun opting not to have an abortion performed by Jack or whoever because she fears she MIGHT die makes no sense.

If there aren't abortions, it's because they don't want abortions.

You win! And they = Ben.

To anyone saying that performing an abortion is out of the question because of risk issues, is just ridiculous. This is an island where anything can happen. This is an island financed with millions of dollars. The "proper tools and people" are not problems. If there aren't abortions, it's because they don't want abortions.

Sun opting not to have an abortion performed by Jack or whoever because she fears she MIGHT die makes no sense.


Are you in the medical field? Unless you are you have no idea how tricky abortions are. Not trying to sound jerky but when people make these claims about medicane when they don't have any knowledge about said medicane, irks me a little. If people are just guessing, why not ask or research instead of just making something up. Yes they have finances out the whazzo but did they purchese any tools for an abortion with all that money? Unless they did and had it on the island before Desmond turned the key, they can't get anything for off the island onto the island.

Are you in the medical field?

I am.

I am.


Oh yeah, what part of the medical field. I am in the medical field also.

Anesthesiology.

All this rubbish about proper equipment is entirely irrelevant.

Now people, I KNOW abortion is a tricky subject, but in this case, as people have pointed out, it's VERY black and white.

No Abortion: Mother and child die.

Abortion: Fetus/Baby/Whatever you want to call it, no longer lives, mom gets off free and clear (assuming the body treats the fetus as an invading organism, as was offered in the show).

Now as to if there is sufficient medical equipment or personnel... there ARE ways to do an abortion that don't require much. Hell in some places where abortions are illegal or hard to get people attempt to do them with coat hangers. Is this safe? Is it ideal? Certainly not. But if the option is a SUPER risky abortion, or CERTAIN death, most rational people will take the super risky procedure.

So again, questions of whether or not they have equipment, or trained medical professions is irrelevant. Yeah, sure the abortion might not be safe, it might not be ideal, but it'd certainly have a higher success rate than the certain death.

I won't be pissed if the show doesn't address this, but I'll be disappointed if it isn't at least mentioned, or given some half response.

As far as Ben and the 9 other women. Obviously it was stated they all knew the risk, so it makes sense for them to not want abortions. The only way it makes since for Sun is if she thinks she can somehow live, and it's her only chance to have a baby with Jin (which would be one of those cop out excuses I'd accept). After all, don't people think Juliet cured Claire?

Anesthesiology.


Paramedic/RN-Nurse

I think you can agree that that without the proper tools(laryngeoscope) to intubate a pt and the proper training, trying to could theoretically work but there is a better chance you will intubate the esophogus instead of the trachea and end up killing the pt.

Just like abortions. Without the proper training and tools performing an abortion is a real risk to the mother.

After all, don't people think Juliet cured Claire?

I don't think so. And if they did, Sun now knows otherwise. She knows about the pre-island/post-island conception thing. And she's really the one who would be lying faith in Juliet or not. So this is what she knows: Claire had a baby - pregnant before the island; Juliet treated 9 expecting mothers who conceived on the island - all died.

I don't know why she wouldn't choose to have an abortion.

All this rubbish about proper equipment is entirely irrelevant.

Now people, I KNOW abortion is a tricky subject, but in this case, as people have pointed out, it's VERY black and white.

No Abortion: Mother and child die.

Abortion: Fetus/Baby/Whatever you want to call it, no longer lives, mom gets off free and clear (assuming the body treats the fetus as an invading organism, as was offered in the show).

Now as to if there is sufficient medical equipment or personnel... there ARE ways to do an abortion that don't require much. Hell in some places where abortions are illegal or hard to get people attempt to do them with coat hangers. Is this safe? Is it ideal? Certainly not. But if the option is a SUPER risky abortion, or CERTAIN death, most rational people will take the super risky procedure.

So again, questions of whether or not they have equipment, or trained medical professions is irrelevant. Yeah, sure the abortion might not be safe, it might not be ideal, but it'd certainly have a higher success rate than the certain death.

I won't be pissed if the show doesn't address this, but I'll be disappointed if it isn't at least mentioned, or given some half response.

As far as Ben and the 9 other women. Obviously it was stated they all knew the risk, so it makes sense for them to not want abortions. The only way it makes since for Sun is if she thinks she can somehow live, and it's her only chance to have a baby with Jin (which would be one of those cop out excuses I'd accept). After all, don't people think Juliet cured Claire?

That's why back street abortions lead to Roe v Wade. To many mothers were dying from having abortions not done by a trained person or in a hospital setting and they were dying.

ALso up unitl the plane crash Juliet did not know it was a certin death thing. She only came to that conclusion after the 9 women had died. So the only abortion you could bring up as an argument is Sun's.

Now tell me what you would think if someone told you this.

"As is stands right now your doomed to die in 2 months. We could try an abortion but without proper equipment and training, you have a better chance of either dying or having a mentally retarded baby than you have of having a successful abortion. So do you want to try and have the baby and live at least 2 more months or try for an abortion that will most liely kill you from infection(painful way to die) or hemorrhage right now. Although we could get lucky and the baortion could be a success but without proper training and tools the outcome does not look likely or do you want to live 2 months and see if we can't fix the problem by then?"

Honestly. what would you pick. Someone doing a procedure without the proper equipment and training and more than lilkely either dying now or having a mentally retarded baby or trying to fix this disease and at least living 2 months?

That's why back street abortions lead to Roe v Wade. To many mothers were dying from having abortions not done by a trained person or in a hospital setting and they were dying.

ALso up unitl the plane crash Juliet did not know it was a certin death thing. She only came to that conclusion after the 9 women had died. So the only abortion you could bring up as an argument is Sun's.

Now tell me what you would think if someone told you this.

"As is stands right now your doomed to die in 2 months. We could try an abortion but without proper equipment and training, you have a better chance of either dying or having a mentally retarded baby than you have of having a successful abortion. So do you want to try and have the baby and live at least 2 more months or try for an abortion that will most liely kill you from infection(painful way to die) or hemorrhage right now. Although we could get lucky and the baortion could be a success but without proper training and tools the outcome does not look likely or do you want to live 2 months and see if we can't fix the problem by then?"

Honestly. what would you pick. Someone doing a procedure without the proper equipment and training and more than lilkely either dying now or having a mentally retarded baby or trying to fix this disease and at least living 2 months?

What would I pick? The abortion hands down... it's not even a question. Seriously? Something that's been killing people with 100% success, which Juliet has confessed she basically has no way of stopping, or a risky abortion? Even if the abortion was 80-90% likely to result in your death... which, I think is being very pessimistic. It's not like she's even been told about ongoing research, all Sun knows is she's going to die in two months.

I really don't see how this is even a question, guaranteed death for both Sun and the fetus, or the fetus is terminated and Sun has a chance of living (hell it's probably a DECENT chance, especially compared to 0%, or lets even be generous and say there's a 1% chance she wouldn't die if she just does nothing). No matter which way you look at it, it makes NO sense for Sun to not have an abortion

I'd choose abortion too. No question.

Okay I don't want to start a debate right now but firstly I feel ALMOST offended (almost because I don't think it's really what was intended) by someone saying only radical conservatives would pitch a fit about abortions on the show...why is radical thrown automatically with someone who believes differently than mainstream? Anyhow I digress...the point I was going to make about abortion is that IF someone is pro-life the reason they are is because they believe (IMHO correctly) that life begins at conception THEREFORE saying it's either me or the baby...in effect I would have to kill my baby to live. Personally I wouldn't be able to do it. I've seen too many ultrasounds and am so absolutely convinced of myself that killing my baby would NEVER cross my mind, I'D RATHER DIE FIRST. My point is if this is what someone believes on the show they would never consider an abortion. I know this is Hollywood (overwhelmingly pro-abortion) but it's just possible they'd have a "radical" conservative on the show (and being Hollywood I can see them making Ben out to be some freaked right-wing nut to make a point). If Ben thinks anything along these lines of course he's going to hope that this time Juliet will figure out the problem and both mother and baby will live.

What would I pick? The abortion hands down... it's not even a question. Seriously? Something that's been killing people with 100% success, which Juliet has confessed she basically has no way of stopping, or a risky abortion? Even if the abortion was 80-90% likely to result in your death... which, I think is being very pessimistic. It's not like she's even been told about ongoing research, all Sun knows is she's going to die in two months.

I really don't see how this is even a question, guaranteed death for both Sun and the fetus, or the fetus is terminated and Sun has a chance of living (hell it's probably a DECENT chance, especially compared to 0%, or lets even be generous and say there's a 1% chance she wouldn't die if she just does nothing). No matter which way you look at it, it makes NO sense for Sun to not have an abortion


Ok so then maybe Charlie and Hurley should perform it with a fish and some bamboo. That's what were talking about. Juliet has been shown to have no training about aborting a fetus and there was no equipment we have seen that is acceptable for an abortion.

So your saying your taking the 10% chance you live now but most likely die now instead of having 2 full months with your husband and possibly a way off the isalnd and a cure?

Your clearly picking AGAINST the odds here. MOst married people in this situation would pick 2 months with my husband and possibly getting off this island and finding a cure as opposed to doing an abortion now and having a 90% chance of dying and at the least missing out on 2 extra months of life that could have been used wiht somene you love and maybe gotten off the island.
100%
I'd choose abortion too. No question.


Being in the medical fiedl its all about playing the odds. What's a pts best chance for survival. By picking abortion your not picking the best odds for saving your own life.

Ok so then maybe Charlie and Hurley should perform it with a fish and some bamboo. That's what were talking about. Juliet has been shown to have no training about aborting a fetus and there was no equipment we have seen that is acceptable for an abortion.

You're getting ridiculous now, and frankly, it's hurting your argument.

So your saying your taking the 10% chance you live now but most likely die now instead of having 2 full months with your husband and possibly a way off the isalnd and a cure?You're trying to make it seem like 90% death is 100% death. And 90% is generously pessimistic. You're also trying to make it seem like not having an abortion is going to result in living for mother and baby more than 10% of the time, when in reality it has happened never. Zero %.

Your clearly picking AGAINST the odds here. MOst married people in this situation would pick 2 months with my husband and possibly getting off this island and finding a cure as opposed to doing an abortion now and having a 90% chance of dying and at the least missing out on 2 extra months of life that could have been used wiht somene you love and maybe gotten off the island.
100%This is like saying... Fire this 10 chambered gun with 9 loaded bullets to your head right now, or 2 months from now be pushed out of a plane from 25,000 feet with no chute. And the person says, I'll jump from the plane, because I have a better chance of living that way.

Ok so then maybe Charlie and Hurley should perform it with a fish and some bamboo. That's what were talking about. Juliet has been shown to have no training about aborting a fetus and there was no equipment we have seen that is acceptable for an abortion.

So your saying your taking the 10% chance you live now but most likely die now instead of having 2 full months with your husband and possibly a way off the isalnd and a cure?

Your clearly picking AGAINST the odds here. MOst married people in this situation would pick 2 months with my husband and possibly getting off this island and finding a cure as opposed to doing an abortion now and having a 90% chance of dying and at the least missing out on 2 extra months of life that could have been used wiht somene you love and maybe gotten off the island.


Thats some crazy odds. I'm not saying I'd run out and get the abortion immediately, but yes, that clearly seems the safer odds. As far as 90% death rate from getting an abortion on the island... I admit straight out I don't know the odds, but that seems RATHER pessimistic for a relatively early abortion. As previous mentioned there's even herbal ways to cause a miscarriage that I'd bet work with decent percentages if done early enough. Were not talking about a late stage abortion here.

If I was Sun, this is what I'd do, in the order I'd do it in:

1. DEMAND answers for Juliet. So far she knows everyone who's been pregnant in the last 3 years on the island other than Claire has died. Figure out exactly what research Juliet has done, if theres any hope of a cure. And more important, what's going on with the Island. Is there a reasonable chance they could be rescued, or are they in a snowglobe? Again, from what Sun may know, is that the ONLY way off the island is in a Sub, and... Locke blew that up. If that's the case, then the little odds of being rescued drop from 10% (a random number) or 0%

2. Talk to Jack/Juliet about aborting on the island. What either of them think of the medical chances ect.

3. Depending on the answers... get an abortion, probably as early as possible if that increases the likelihood of living.

@MegletTX

This has NOTHING to do with real world pro-life vs pro-choice. In common day not crazy LOST world, having an abortion could come down to your life or the babies life. But in this crazy lost world thats NOT the choice. The choice is "You and the baby die, or just you die". I'm not trying to turn this into a real world abortion debate. Even if you think life starts at conception, or 5 minutes before conception, it makes no sense to not get an abortion in this case. It's cold yes, but either 2 people are certain to die, or one is.

I asked myself this question in the last episode. I almost posted a thread on it, but decided not to. Due to the political nature of it all.

I have some personal issues that I will lay out. As a Christian I don't agree with abortion. I'm not here to debate it merits or lack thereof. My ex g/f before we dated had an abortion. (Plus my ex g/f is Korean). So it was weird watching this episode and having this debate.

Ben said something in the previous episodes in that the women decided to do this. It seemed to imply they decided to take their pregnancy to conception. All of them. ABC and the writers will probably skim over the abortion item due to the story line (at this point). However, with the Sun revelation I think it should be mentioned eventually. In reality I don't think Sun would get one even if given the choice. She would give out hope (as it seemed other women did) that their child would live. Even if it meant sacrificing themselves in the process. Additionally, She probably doesn't believe everything Juliet says. Or only with a grain of salt.

Essentially with Sun, this issue will not be an issue. However, I am curious if Kate get's pregnant then she may be more of a Character type (at least IMO), that would seek an abortion or more likely approach the subject. Especially since she isn't married to Sawyer. Would the island consider such an action a step away from redemption? Would such a story line be more of a distraction from the story than adding to it?



Whether Ben wanted women to have it or not. I would agree with some on here who say that Ben was concerned with the births. He wanted conception more than the women's right. Not saying that is right or not. Not going there. He wanted his civilization to survive.

The point is not whether Ben would want Sun to abort. Of course he wouldn't, but he doesn't have Sun in his clutches yet. Now, the point might be that the Others have the proper equipment and aren't sharing, so an abortion isn't possible. And, indeed, Sun might choose not to abort in hopes of rescue or because she doesn't want to risk dying even sooner. There may be many reasons that an abortion wouldn't be tried.

But the point is that if being pregnant is a 100% death sentence, the natural first question is, "Would terminating the pregnancy save the mother?" That doesn't determine whether such a choice would be made, but it does mean that people are thinking logically. I would hope someone on the island asks that question and the writers have some convincing explanation as to why a woman is doomed the second egg and sperm shake hands. I mean, it's almost a parody of the life begins at conception idea: death begins at conception.

Cardie

@MegletTX

This has NOTHING to do with real world pro-life vs pro-choice. In common day not crazy LOST world, having an abortion could come down to your life or the babies life. But in this crazy lost world thats NOT the choice. The choice is "You and the baby die, or just you die". I'm not trying to turn this into a real world abortion debate. Even if you think life starts at conception, or 5 minutes before conception, it makes no sense to not get an abortion in this case. It's cold yes, but either 2 people are certain to die, or one is.

I think your missing the point of an aspect of the show. Not everyone functions on a purely logical manner. Like life, many people function also with emotion and faith. I think It would be interesting if we had a situation in which Jack would suggest an abortion (logic) and someone else held out "hope" or "faith" of a miracle and they were willing to sacrifice their life for that chance of another living. It goes along with the show very well. Considering we may have a few more seasons ahead that may be a very good reality of things to come. In fits in with many aspects of this show. Just wondering if the writers would be willing to confront it.

Everyone stop and put yourselves in Sun's shoes for a moment:

1.) She may not completely trust Juilette (I wouldn't).

2.) She has been trying to get pregnant for a LONG TIME- conception wasn't a mistake, it was a miracle (to her).

3.) As far as she knows, rescue could be moments away

I seriously doubt she's going to jump on the abortion bandwagon too quickly.

But we all know none of this matters, cause ABC doesn't have the rocks to address such an issue.

I think the major thing is that Sun really wants this pregnancy, and is probably holding out hope that either Juliet can save her, or that they will get rescued (although who knows if this will make a difference if the damage is done at conception.) Likely the other women did too, since Ben said they knew the risk. I don't know why any woman would take that risk, its beyond my understanding, but that's the way Sun seems to feel.

On the other hand, if, when things get bad, an abortion could save the women, why wouldn't Juliet have done it with the other women? I mean, holding out hope that you won't get sick is one thing, but if the pregnancy gets to the stage where the woman is sick and dying, you'd think they would have ended the pregnancy that was killing her if it would have done any good. Maybe the trick is to catch this before the immune system goes awry and kills the mother/ fetus, but that all the women hold out hope that Juliet will save them until its too late. If the immune system has already started attacking the woman's body, it very well might be, just like quitting smoking once you already have lung cancer isn't going to do crap for you- the damage is done.

There is no way, even if the subject was brought up to Sun that she would go through with an abortion. The writers want her life to be hanging by a thread and they want us to have to hold our breath every week to see what's going to happen!!

I know ABC doesn't want to get into an abortion debate, which is why the writers should invent some explanation that the fatal consequences start at conception and then can't be stopped.

I think this is exactly what they'll do. I think that either Juliet was lying or TPTB made up the "mother's immune system attacks the foetus and then she dies" explanation, because it doesn't hold much weight scientifically. In either case, if they are willing to stretch medical fact up to this point it would be easy to go a bit further to exclude abortion from the equation.

Sun has a great workikng knowledge of herbal remedies. Aren't there a few different herbs women can ingest to miscarry? what if she did that? we already know now that she is capable of carrying on a secret life.

I would hope that this and any future threads dealing with this subject would be free from peoples' personal philosophies about abortion. The Fuselage is not the place for a debate on this issue which has two opposing factions that will never ever find a common ground. So to turn this into a debate about abortion is a very pointless thing, since it will invariably become just a sounding board for people pushing their own personal ideas out, with nobody really listening or changing their opinions either way on this issue. I personally would really rather not see such a debate clogging up the Fuselage.

Having said that, I do think that this still is a very valid question to ask: whether Sun should have an abortion. If one removes the moral/ethical considerations about it, we are faced with the following points that may be discussed that are pertinent to the plotline of the show:

1) If Sun has an abortion, will she still die from whatever has killed the previous expectant mothers? Would an abortion make any difference in that regard?

2) If the answer to Question 1 above is yes - she will still die even if she has an abortion, then the conclusion is fairly obvious - she should try to go full term and hope Juliet can save her and her baby somehow.

3) If the answer to Question 1 above is maybe - if there's a percentage of say 50% chance that after having an abortion that Sun would still die, then it gets difficult. Sun wants Jin's baby, and seeing as how the Island increased Jin's sperm count so that he was able to make her pregnant, the only way she will have a baby with Jin is if it is conceived on the Island. It might come down to a choice with Sun - maybe she would actually voluntarily want to see if Juliet's new techniques could work and try to bring the baby to term. Or, maybe not...

4) If the answer to Question 1 above is no - that if Sun has an abortion that her life would be spared - then it still is complicated. We know that the reason Sun got pregnant is because Jin's infertility was cured on the Island. It seems that Sun really wants Jin's baby, but maybe Juliet might convince her that she could help them get pregnant later after they get off the Island. Juliet IS a leading fertility doctor, after all... But this also introduces the influence that Ben has. Perhaps Ben really wants to use any of the Beach Camp women who are pregnant as built in guinea pigs, and in that case he might try to force Juliet to compell Sun to carry the fetus to full term to experiment on her with the new treatments she's developed.

So I think a lot of the analysis of this subject really is based on learning more about exactly how this disease that kills the mothers works. Until we have more information about it, specifically whether a mother would still die after an abortion or not, then all we can do is speculate at this point.

We also must take Sun's feelings about the matter into consideration. She REALLY wants Jin's baby, it seems. And might be willing to put her life on the line even voluntarily to have Juliet experiment with her to see whether they can manage to bring the baby to term, understanding all the risks involved.

However, please people, don't drag this conversation into a debate over the ethics of abortion itself unless there are ethical aspects that directly relate to the plot. I myself have very strong feelings about this issue, but who cares? We're here to discuss Lost, not try to thump our chest and declare our moral stand on some issue like this, which will only lead to other chest thumping and argument over an issue that has no possible resolution.

There are definitely herbs that cause miscarriage. I actually though last night that I could see someone else, like maybe Jin, if they find out about this situation slipping her some herbs in her drink or food or something. I don't know if I can see Sun doing it though, since she seems to want the pregnancy so badly, and when people are overly emotional about things its hard to be completely rational. I think she will hold out hope as long as she can.

On the other hand, the 2 practical reasons that have been said, namely that ABC doesn't have the guts to tackle the issue and that having Sun in danger will make for a gripping storyline surely both contribute.

EDITED to add that I agree with the above poster about this not being the place to debate abortion, but I don't think anyone is trying to. This is a fictional and exceptional situation anyway, where the real-world debate has little relevance (or place in this forum). I think people respect that.

But we all know none of this matters, cause ABC doesn't have the rocks to address such an issue.


Actually they addressed this issue on Grey's last season and Christina was going to abort because having a baby was inconvenient, not because of any life threatening medical issues. I can't imagine Jack suggesting an abortion to save Sun's life would be overly controversial.

Abortions have never been suggested by Juliet before because her purpose on the island was to get a mother to carry a baby to full term so abortion was never an option. It was actually the first thing I thought about when Juliet told Jack that pregnant women on the island die. Sun and any other woman on the island that's been gettin busy certainly deserves that choice and they have the medical facilities in that hatch that would provide a good chance of Jack or Juliet or both being able to perform a safe and successful abortion.

If it were me I'd take my chances with the abortion.

Yeah, I was thinking about an abortion during the episode, too. And then I felt bad for thinking about it. So I think that kind of might be the case...when abortion is discussed NO ONE agrees on it. Think of all the Others in one room arguing about it. It was probably easier for them to all just agree to keep the baby alive and continue research. Even the mothers probably agreed to this.
I immediately thought about an abortion too. (Actually, I thought about how easy it would probably be to just fall down and lose the baby ala Eva Longoria's character on Desperate Housewives [she accidentally fell down the stairs and miscarried]). I'm sorry, but if we're both going to die anyway, I'd rather not willingly die with more than half my life left to live.... on a crappy island or not. Unless of course, there is some reason why the mothers STILL die after an abortion... which I did not sense is true.

Actually they addressed this issue on Grey's last season and Christina was going to abort because having a baby was inconvenient, not because of any life threatening medical issues. I can't imagine Jack suggesting an abortion to save Sun's life would be overly controversial.


Good point, I forgot about that Grey's episode. The biggest difference would be that Christina is a character who I can see doing nothing else in that situation. She is not maternal in any way, unlike Sun. Nothing else would have made sense for Christina. I also just remembered that Grey's has another character who had an abortion- Addison, and she is still well-loved. So it seems that ABC does have the guts to bring the topic up, and that it doesn't damage viewer's opinions of the characters, from what I can tell at least.

Most American feel that abortion is ok is the life of the mother is in danger. Abortion is not a new topic to TV, no is it new to ABC. This thread isn't about whether someone is a Christian, a radical conservatice, pro-life, pro-choice. Not to sound callous, but none of your thoughts on the morality of abortion really matter. None of us are going to be on an island with no way off. None of the female viewers are going to get pregnant in a place where we know that we are going to die at 4.5 months.

As far as being able to perform an abortion, there is more than one way to abort a fetus. The Planned Parenthood website has a lot of information on this, as does PPAL (both awesome organizations). There are two main types of abortions: surgical and medical. The surgical type seems to be the one most people are familiar with and there are several variations within the surgical type. There is also the medical type which involves two different hormones that effectively stop the fetus from receiving oxygen and nutrients and a second hormone which put the body into labor, thereby bringing on a miscarriage. Problem is, the medical abortion can only be used up to a certain amount of time. Sun is just over the time limit for the medical procedure. The Others and Juliet would surel know about the different options.

I would think that the Others might recognize that aborting a fetus might lead to new and important information about what is happening. Not that I can see any TV show having an abortion performed just to perform medical tests, but the fetus is not going to live anyway. There might be a wealth of information about what goes wrong if they were to test an aborted fetus. They seem to be a scientific people, even if there was some moral issue amongst them, you would think that they might just view an aborted fetus as collateral damage. Kind of "let's abort one fetus in the hopes that we will learn something that will allow us to produce babies again".

The thing is, it would come down to Sun. Based on her reaction at the end, when she told Juliet that Juliet gave her good news, she would rather die knowing that she was dying for Jin's baby than live knowing that the baby isn't Jins. That is a woman that would not consider abortion, even though she is going to die as well.

Again, let's keep personal philosphies out if this. Whatever your personal decision, great, wonderful, respect your opinion. The thread is about Sun getting an abortion on this crazy island.

I bet Sun could find the types of herbs she would need in the garden. But I really doubt ABC is going to go down the road of having a major, married, character have an abortion on island. People would freak out, no matter how well written.

If the problem starts at conception, as Juliet said, then would it matter? Would she be doomed anyway?

Actually spinal surgery and abortions are like life and death. Complete opposites. Only, only an OBGYN can do an abortion. Also like I said before there is so much that goes into an abortion that unless Juliet was trained to abort fetuses which note, not every OBGYN is trained to do and they had all the equipment they needed, an abortion would be very, very hard to do.

Just to put it in further perspective how different being a surgon and a OBGYN is ask any med doctor about pregnecy's and giving birth and they will look at you like your speaking aramic. Unless in med school it is very rare for a doctor to do anything that revolves around a pregnet mother. Hell paramedics deliver and deal with more births, abortions and newborns than docs unless OBGYN do.

I don't know where you get your info from but talk to anyone in the medical field and they will tell you abortion is far from a simple thing.

I have to admit this makes me very angry. You're straight up putting words in my mouth. Building up a straw man just so you can knock him down. But, having said that, I also want to say that I think it's incredible that a thread about abortion has lasted this long, and that we should all try to play nice to see that it stays that way.

In my post, the one that you're apparently replying to, I only suggested that since the Others have the proper facilities to perform a complicated surgery, that they would also have the proper facilities needed to perform an abortion. I am not suggesting that they jury-rig their existing equiptment, or get Mikhail to perform the surgery. I'm saying that they would already have everything they need.

But after you called me misinformed I decided to do a little research about the subject. The first place I looked was Wikipedia, and according to their article an abortion preformed in the first 16 weeks by a doctor, NP, nurse midwife, or PA (notice they did not mention "OBGYN") is in fact safer than giving birth! Unless you claim that this article is incorrect, which it might be, it would seem that you are wrong. At least about the only-OBGYNs-do-abortions part.

I also want to say that I am in fact anti-abortion. I am a Buddhist which means that I think all forms of killing are wrong, so I'm a vegetarian, I'm anti-war, anti-death penalty, and yes, anti-abortion. But, I also want to say that I would never try to force other people to live according to my standards, or try to "convert" someone. Even though I think abortion is wrong, I don't think it should be illegal, because I don't think politicians have the right to tell people how to live (although the often do anyways). This is why I have a lot of issues with the "pro-life" people. If you think abortion is wrong, great, then don't have one.

The thing is, it would come down to Sun. Based on her reaction at the end, when she told Juliet that Juliet gave her good news, she would rather die knowing that she was dying for Jin's baby than live knowing that the baby isn't Jins. That is a woman that would not consider abortion, even though she is going to die as well.

I think Sun's opinion will carry a lot of weight in this matter, but not all. I also think that Ben has a lot of influence on what will happen, and perhaps Juliet as well.

I think that we should just accept as a given that Juliet would be able to give Sun an abortion, if it came down to that. They have enough equipment to perform neurological surgery on Ben, I'm sure they could somehow scrape together enough to perform an abortion on Sun if needed. That part of this discussion seems rather silly.

I had that thought too. It seems like the only obvious solution, but ABC is owned by Disney, and they won't want to stir any waters. Blah blah blah.

Maybe abortion wouldn't help. Whatever causes the infection happens during conception. What is infected? What causes the death? The baby? Or does the conception infect something else in Sun that eventually kills her? Because if it's not the baby, then abortion would have no effect. The damage would be done.

It is possible to have a discussion about abortion being a possibility without allowing your personal beliefs get in the mix. If people can not stay relatively calm when discussing this then the thread will be closed.

Thanks

Maybe abortion wouldn't help. Whatever causes the infection happens during conception. What is infected? What causes the death? The baby? Or does the conception infect something else in Sun that eventually kills her? Because if it's not the baby, then abortion would have no effect. The damage would be done.
If I remember correctly, it seems that the women's bodies turn against the fetus because it identifies it as some sort of foreign object. I would imagine that since nobody got to the third trimester, it means that the women started to exhibit symptons and deteriorate before labor. Which would lead me to think that since Sun is obviously healthy right now, if the fetus were to be terminated now, the body would remain as is, since it hadn't already begun to attack itself.

Abortion is far, fra from a simple procedure.

ALso the problem with trying to induce a miscarriage is two things. Trying to miscarriage is a 50/50 shot. Your just as likely to make the fetus mental retarded as your are of killing it. Also anytime the fetus is in distress, the mother's body go at it trying to save it, evebn if that means comprimising her own body.

If miscarriages and abortions were so easy they there wouldn't have been all those deaths from so called back alley abortions prior to Roe v Wade.

Abortions and miscarriages are anything but simple.

Really? Cause I've had one of each...

Abortion is hardly even surgical. Half the time they do it without anaesthesia and the other half they do twighlight sleep.

And inducing a miscarriage is actually quite simple. There are whole websites devoted to the subject of homeopathic abortifacients. They tell you what to take, how much, and for how long in order to poison yourself (because that's essentially what you're doing) enough to abort but not enough to actually harm you.

And by the way, those back-alley abortionists were not in it to help anyone, they were in it for the money. And, duh, it's really really dumb to use a knitting needle which has a high probability of perforating the uterus. The actual procedure for an abortion, performed with the right tools, takes about 20 minutes. There's nothing to it. Look it up; it's kind of like vacuuming your living room.

As long as there have been unwanted pregnancies, there have been methods for aborting. It is not an american phenomenon. Women have been doing this for thousands of years with herbs they found growing wild, with the aid of midwives.

I don't have time to read this whole thread, but I was thinking, some womens bodys react poorly to pregnancy, as in they treat the fetus as a foreign body and reject it.

Since the island has such 'healing powers' it may be to much for viable pregnancies, these womens bodies are trying to heal/rid themselves of the object.

If they have abortions, there is no way of researching ho to make this stop.

However, I wonder if the anomoly will have changed things.

It is possible to have a discussion about abortion being a possibility without allowing your personal beliefs get in the mix. If people can not stay relatively calm when discussing this then the thread will be closed.



I think this thread is going OK so far. It's good to reinforce that though.

Good question. I can't beleive the producers stepped into the abortion mine field.

Isnt this pretty simple?

The other women did not have abortions because they volunteered to make this potential sacrifice for their people, so they could have a future. Juliet was trying new things, hoping it would work.

In this case, if Juliet can do nothing, i dont understand who could argue against Sun having an abortion. If she doesn't, she dies, the baby dies. If she does, the baby dies, she lives. The child will die either way, there is no point in making sun die as well.

Regardless, i just dont think in any world the producers will bring her to abortion, or if it will even ever be brought up. The first season was...43 days? the second season about 22? (estimating here..) This season will probably end up about 22, maybe less. And she has 2.5 months before she would die? that's quite a while's away

in my opinion, it will be resolved in some other way before that time. possibly way before that time? (enless all of the sudden the show start spanning longer periods of time..)

Jeremy

I have to admit this makes me very angry. You're straight up putting words in my mouth. Building up a straw man just so you can knock him down. But, having said that, I also want to say that I think it's incredible that a thread about abortion has lasted this long, and that we should all try to play nice to see that it stays that way.

In my post, the one that you're apparently replying to, I only suggested that since the Others have the proper facilities to perform a complicated surgery, that they would also have the proper facilities needed to perform an abortion. I am not suggesting that they jury-rig their existing equiptment, or get Mikhail to perform the surgery. I'm saying that they would already have everything they need.

But after you called me misinformed I decided to do a little research about the subject. The first place I looked was Wikipedia, and according to their article an abortion preformed in the first 16 weeks by a doctor, NP, nurse midwife, or PA (notice they did not mention "OBGYN") is in fact safer than giving birth! Unless you claim that this article is incorrect, which it might be, it would seem that you are wrong. At least about the only-OBGYNs-do-abortions part.

I also want to say that I am in fact anti-abortion. I am a Buddhist which means that I think all forms of killing are wrong, so I'm a vegetarian, I'm anti-war, anti-death penalty, and yes, anti-abortion. But, I also want to say that I would never try to force other people to live according to my standards, or try to "convert" someone. Even though I think abortion is wrong, I don't think it should be illegal, because I don't think politicians have the right to tell people how to live (although the often do anyways). This is why I have a lot of issues with the "pro-life" people. If you think abortion is wrong, great, then don't have one.


If you go on wkipedia don't count on 100% truth since anyone can alter those things with or without proper knowledge about said subject.

Mid wife's are rudementry trained OBGYN's. Also only NP and PA(a doctor in training) with OBGYN could perform an abortion. Perfoming abortions is not something they cover really in med, nurse or ems school unless you specialize in OBGYN. Go to your local ER or family care provider and ask a doctor is you put him on an island with not equipment he would need for an abortion and only his current non-OBGYN training how safely he could perfom an abortion.

Also yes the article is 100% false in saying that abortion is safer than childborth. That is the most ludicris statement I have ever read. It has no medical biases to back itself up. Women having been having children since the beginning of time and the human race has survived just fine. Unless the baby has some complication, its a breech birth, a prolapsed cord birth, a nucal cord birth or some other complication, childbirth is very, very safe.

So buddy, but that article has no leg to stand on if it claims at any point an abortion is safer than a normal healthy childbirth.

Just to even prove more how unsafe abortions are. If abortions were so safe and easy Roe v Wade would never have been created. Roe v Wade would have never even been brought before the courts. The whole bill was creaed because to many women died from backstreet abortions. Abortions just like with any complex medical procedure if not done by a trained person with the necessary equipment has a very low chance of sucess.

Good question. I can't beleive the producers stepped into the abortion mine field.

Until it's mentioned on the show, they haven't stepped into anything.

I immediately thought about an abortion too. (Actually, I thought about how easy it would probably be to just fall down and lose the baby ala Eva Longoria's character on Desperate Housewives [she accidentally fell down the stairs and miscarried]). I'm sorry, but if we're both going to die anyway, I'd rather not willingly die with more than half my life left to live.... on a crappy island or not. Unless of course, there is some reason why the mothers STILL die after an abortion... which I did not sense is true.

Sorry to tell you but the fall down the stairs method rarely works. Only on tv does it work that easy. Falling down stairs is more likely to cause brain damage to the baby than abort it. A realistic way to have an abortion is something that was presented on one of the L&O's. You would have to physically beat the crap out of the mother's stomach to cause an abortion, although more than likely causing a GI bleed or AAA to the mother thus killing her.

If you go on wkipedia don't count on 100% truth since anyone can alter those things with or without proper knowledge about said subject.

Mid wife's are rudementry trained OBGYN's. Also only NP and PA(a doctor in training) with OBGYN could perform an abortion. Perfoming abortions is not something they cover really in med, nurse or ems school unless you specialize in OBGYN. Go to your local ER or family care provider and ask a doctor is you put him on an island with not equipment he would need for an abortion and only his current non-OBGYN training how safely he could perfom an abortion.

Also yes the article is 100% false in saying that abortion is safer than childborth. That is the most ludicris statement I have ever read. It has no medical biases to back itself up. Women having been having children since the beginning of time and the human race has survived just fine. Unless the baby has some complication, its a breech birth, a prolapsed cord birth, a nucal cord birth or some other complication, childbirth is very, very safe.

So buddy, but that article has no leg to stand on if it claims at any point an abortion is safer than a normal healthy childbirth.

Just to even prove more how unsafe abortions are. If abortions were so safe and easy Roe v Wade would never have been created. Roe v Wade would have never even been brought before the courts. The whole bill was creaed because to many women died from backstreet abortions. Abortions just like with any complex medical procedure if not done by a trained person with the necessary equipment has a very low chance of sucess.

Oh c'mon :rolleyes: ...the reason that abortions were deemed unsafe before Roe vs. Wade is because they were illegal and being performed in extremely unsanitary ways. No medical professionals were allowed to do them, so they were being performed in all sorts of horrible ways. AEP was not saying that they don't require medical knowledge. Any medical procedure that is performed in an unsanitary way can be very dangerous and fatal. Someone can remove a splinter from a finger using dirty tweezers, develop a gangrenous infection and die.

However, his point is (and this is fact) that a woman that has an abortion in a medical environment has a much lesser chance of death than a woman that gives birth in a medical environment. Not that death upon childbirth is very high in developed countries, but the deaths from complications due to a medically sound abortion are almost never heard from.

On the island, getting back to what this thread should be about...they ahve trained doctors and scientists. They may not know exactly what the steps are for an abortion, but Jack is not an ER doctor and he did ok after the crash. All doctors have to do a rotation in obstetrics and gynecology (SP??), they will have a basic working knowledge of what is involved (and I just checked this with a girlfriend who just finished her residency). They may not ahve it down perfectly, but given the chance between having an abortion and possibly surviving and getting to the middle of my second trimester and knowing that I will die, I would roll the dice.

To me, it is inconceivable that on an island with the baby probs that they have, that they would have gotten no solid information on the ins and outs of abortion.

If you go on wkipedia don't count on 100% truth since anyone can alter those things with or without proper knowledge about said subject.

Mid wife's are rudementry trained OBGYN's. Also only NP and PA(a doctor in training) with OBGYN could perform an abortion. Perfoming abortions is not something they cover really in med, nurse or ems school unless you specialize in OBGYN. Go to your local ER or family care provider and ask a doctor is you put him on an island with not equipment he would need for an abortion and only his current non-OBGYN training how safely he could perfom an abortion.

Also yes the article is 100% false in saying that abortion is safer than childborth. That is the most ludicris statement I have ever read. It has no medical biases to back itself up. Women having been having children since the beginning of time and the human race has survived just fine. Unless the baby has some complication, its a breech birth, a prolapsed cord birth, a nucal cord birth or some other complication, childbirth is very, very safe.

So buddy, but that article has no leg to stand on if it claims at any point an abortion is safer than a normal healthy childbirth.

Just to even prove more how unsafe abortions are. If abortions were so safe and easy Roe v Wade would never have been created. Roe v Wade would have never even been brought before the courts. The whole bill was creaed because to many women died from backstreet abortions. Abortions just like with any complex medical procedure if not done by a trained person with the necessary equipment has a very low chance of sucess.

It would seem that you're basing your opinion at best on experiental evidence, and at worst on pure specultion. And the worst thing about it is that that's what your accusing me of doing. The Wilipedia article cites two different articles from scholarly jounals that say that abortion, again within the first 16 weeks, is safter than childbirth. According to one of the articles the rate of mortality for chilbirth is 9 per 100,000, while abortion is 1 per 100,000. The other article states, and I quote:

"Women in the age group 20-24 had a 2.3 times greater mortality risk in childbirth than in abortion and women over 35 had an 8.1 times greater risk"

To me this seems pretty definitive, yet you say this is "100% false". I wonder what evidence you're using to support this claim?? It seems to me like you have none. Maybe I'm wrong, and if I am I'd be happy if you could show me that this is the case. But unfortunately at the moment it would seem that you have no idea what you're talking about. Here are the links to abstracts of the articles that I cited: (mods - I hope it's ok to post these links, if it's not tell me and I can delete them)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=639966&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8178896&dopt=Abstract

Oh, and by the way, a PA is not a "doctor in training". Being a Physician Assistant is a profession in it's own right.

Really? Cause I've had one of each...

Abortion is hardly even surgical. Half the time they do it without anaesthesia and the other half they do twighlight sleep.

And inducing a miscarriage is actually quite simple. There are whole websites devoted to the subject of homeopathic abortifacients. They tell you what to take, how much, and for how long in order to poison yourself (because that's essentially what you're doing) enough to abort but not enough to actually harm you.

And by the way, those back-alley abortionists were not in it to help anyone, they were in it for the money. And, duh, it's really really dumb to use a knitting needle which has a high probability of perforating the uterus. The actual procedure for an abortion, performed with the right tools, takes about 20 minutes. There's nothing to it. Look it up; it's kind of like vacuuming your living room.

As long as there have been unwanted pregnancies, there have been methods for aborting. It is not an american phenomenon. Women have been doing this for thousands of years with herbs they found growing wild, with the aid of midwives.


Trust me, I have more than enough info about abortions as seeing as I have traing in EMS-paramedic and Nursing.

Anytime you try to miscarriage thru herbs the mother's body always trys to fight the infection and save the baby even if it means comprimising itself in the process.

Just because abortions are quick today does not mean they are simple and easy procedure. Abortions like ANY other medical procedure is very complicated.

For a perfect example look to season 1 when Sayid stabbed Sawyer by accident. Anyone else on the beach but Jack would have not know what to do and Sawyer would have died. Sawyer's brachial artery was severed. The obvious thing anyone would do would be direct pressure, which wouldn't have worked with how high his BP, HR would have been. So next would be pressure points if you know them which more than likely would not have worked. So then using cold packs are next but that wasn't an option and wouldn't have worked anyway. Finally the last option is a tournaquit(sp) which probobly would have worked but would have caused Sawyer to loss his arm and then would bleed out from the amputation if it was performed. Only Jack was able to save Sawyer because he knew where the brachial artery was, how to clamp it off, how to somewhat reattach it so it could heal properlly, suture it and give him the right meds so infection wouldn't set in and how much to give him and for how long.

Now look at that. Someone being stabbed in the bicep and without proper training would have died. Now compare that to trying to kill a fetus INSIDE a pregnet women who's body is protecting it and trying to preserve life even if it means damaging her own body.



Also on a side note, backstreet abortions is a term used for ANY out of hospital, not doctor supervised abortions. So essentially all abortions prior to Roe v Wade were backstreet abortions. Again like I said earlier, very unsafe and hence why Roe v Wade was created.

Finally just because a website tells you how to commit an abortion does in no way mean its safe. You know what, if you search on the net could can find numerous sites that show how to become anorexic and keep it hidden. They claim its very, very safe. Just because someone says something is safe does not in anyway make it safe. Just like poeple who have websites on how to make bombs. Well no matter how safe they tell you it is, making a bomb is anything but safe.

On last thing which you mentioned and I have been saying since the start of this thread is WITH the right tools and proper training abortion is a realative safe procedure. The whole point is that no one on the island appears to have either training or equipment necessary for an abortion. That's what makes it unsafe. If Sun was in a hospital with someone with OBGYN training then this would be a different story but we are talking about on and island without proper equipment and without somoene who is properly trained.
100%
Oh c'mon :rolleyes: ...the reason that abortions were deemed unsafe before Roe vs. Wade is because they were illegal and being performed in extremely unsanitary ways. No medical professionals were allowed to do them, so they were being performed in all sorts of horrible ways. AEP was not saying that they don't require medical knowledge. Any medical procedure that is performed in an unsanitary way can be very dangerous and fatal. Someone can remove a splinter from a finger using dirty tweezers, develop a gangrenous infection and die.

However, his point is (and this is fact) that a woman that has an abortion in a medical environment has a much lesser chance of death than a woman that gives birth in a medical environment. Not that death upon childbirth is very high in developed countries, but the deaths from complications due to a medically sound abortion are almost never heard from.

On the island, getting back to what this thread should be about...they ahve trained doctors and scientists. They may not know exactly what the steps are for an abortion, but Jack is not an ER doctor and he did ok after the crash. All doctors have to do a rotation in obstetrics and gynecology (SP??), they will have a basic working knowledge of what is involved (and I just checked this with a girlfriend who just finished her residency). They may not ahve it down perfectly, but given the chance between having an abortion and possibly surviving and getting to the middle of my second trimester and knowing that I will die, I would roll the dice.

To me, it is inconceivable that on an island with the baby probs that they have, that they would have gotten no solid information on the ins and outs of abortion.


That's what I have been saying about abortions on the island without proper training and equipment, its unsafe. If done in a hospital its realtivly safe as safe as any medical procedure can be.

Also ask your girlfriend unless she is going into OBGYN how weel she would be versed on anything OBGYN after 10-20 years working in another field? OBGYN is one of the biggest things pushed to the side by doctors/RN's and EMS personel.

Its like when you learn something in high school and never use it and then 20 years later are asked to recall it in a life or death situation.

Also why would the isalnd have anyone trained for abortions or abortion equipment when its all about impregnating mothers and trying to concive a baby. I have no idea why Ben would go to all the extra effort to get stuff for possible abortions when he seems to not care about anyone but himself and his goal on the isalnd.

Again, I want to stress that this topic doesn't need to go down the "Is abortion right or wrong" debate.

Even if it is unlikely sun would survive an abortion (which I think is a stretch), it should at least be BROUGHT UP. Now, as has been suggest MAYBE Sun will say "I'd rather have two months with my husband than possibly less time"... I really don't see a valid argument for that, considering... again, it's certain death or a possibilty of life but at the very least Hurley or someone should bring it up, so they can give it some kind of answer.

Really the whole "Is sun likely to survive an on island abortion" is an irrelvant discussion. It still boils down to a VERY small chance of her surviving by having continuing with the pregnancy, where it's virtually a certainty that her adn the baby will die in two months. Or she could chance an abortion and have a shot at survival. Even if you take the most skeptical of odds, it seems an easy decision. Esspecially taking Juliet's "It happens at conception" thing into consideration, which would make rescue even pointless.

It would seem that you're basing your opinion at best on experiental evidence, and at worst on pure specultion. And the worst thing about it is that that's what your accusing me of doing. The Wilipedia article cites two different articles from scholarly jounals that say that abortion, again within the first 16 weeks, is safter than childbirth. According to one of the articles the rate of mortality for chilbirth is 9 per 100,000, while abortion is 1 per 100,000. The other article states, and I quote:

"Women in the age group 20-24 had a 2.3 times greater mortality risk in childbirth than in abortion and women over 35 had an 8.1 times greater risk"

To me this seems pretty definitive, yet you say this is "100% false". I wonder what evidence you're using to support this claim?? It seems to me like you have none. Maybe I'm wrong, and if I am I'd be happy if you could show me that this is the case. But unfortunately at the moment it would seem that you have no idea what you're talking about. Here are the links to abstracts of the articles that I cited: (mods - I hope it's ok to post these links, if it's not tell me and I can delete them)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=639966&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8178896&dopt=Abstract

Oh, and by the way, a PA is not a "doctor in training". Being a Physician Assistant is a profession in it's own right.

Hey EAP, I feel like we always have each other's backs on this board. :) This is not the first, or even second time this has happened.

Trust me, I have more than enough info about abortions as seeing as I have traing in EMS-paramedic and Nursing.

I don't know, Havok... I've been reading what you've posted here in this thread, and from what I can tell it seems as if you are trying to pick a fight. This is a very touchy subject, so I would strongly suggest being extra special nice and try to resist being defensive in your posts. Trying to demonstrate to everyone that you have special training in the medical field, only to then misspell words and use sloppy grammar is a bit self-defeating. Why don't you let this rest? It seems as if you really are convinced that they cannot safely perform an abortion on the Island, given their equipment and the present group of people to draw from. Others have a different opinion about it than you, but that's okay. Just please let it rest.

Jeeze, can there not be a debate on a hypothetical ituation in a tv show without this turning into a morality debate!?

Whether abortion is something you personally think is wrong or not, the fact that the subject was not touched upon was odd for me. But maybe the writers are just not choosing to you there, but I know if I was in Sun's position I would at least want to know all my options, whether I approved of them or not.

It would seem that you're basing your opinion at best on experiental evidence, and at worst on pure specultion. And the worst thing about it is that that's what your accusing me of doing. The Wilipedia article cites two different articles from scholarly jounals that say that abortion, again within the first 16 weeks, is safter than childbirth. According to one of the articles the rate of mortality for chilbirth is 9 per 100,000, while abortion is 1 per 100,000. The other article states, and I quote:

"Women in the age group 20-24 had a 2.3 times greater mortality risk in childbirth than in abortion and women over 35 had an 8.1 times greater risk"

To me this seems pretty definitive, yet you say this is "100% false". I wonder what evidence you're using to support this claim?? It seems to me like you have none. Maybe I'm wrong, and if I am I'd be happy if you could show me that this is the case. But unfortunately at the moment it would seem that you have no idea what you're talking about. Here are the links to abstracts of the articles that I cited: (mods - I hope it's ok to post these links, if it's not tell me and I can delete them)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=639966&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8178896&dopt=Abstract

Oh, and by the way, a PA is not a "doctor in training". Being a Physician Assistant is a profession in it's own right.


The article twist the facts. Healthy childbrith is one of the safest procedure out there today. They are twisting the facts by including healthy and non-healthy child births. I never said unhealthy childbirth is safer than abortions.



Also I don't know where they got that data from but to claim that childbirth ""remains a risky business- direct quote"" is off from the truth more than a little. This reminds me of the research that at one time showed smoking actually was good for you. Also note that the article says "comprehensive data on pregnancy-related morbidity are lacking". How can you write an artcile without having that data being present. That's what the entire article is about so saying you don;t have all the data makes no sense how you can claim one way or another.

Sorry to say but the article obvious skews itself one way without the facts all being present as it even pointed out itself.

My information and all I know about OBGYN comes from the Kansas board of EMS and the Kansas board of Nursing.

I am not trying to get into the whole abortion debate because I don;t want this thread to be closed but any article that claims it doesn't have all the data, yet makes a claim one way or another is not something anyone should use for a basis of anything. The article was poorly put together.

Hey EAP, I feel like we always have each other's backs on this board. :) This is not the first, or even second time this has happened.

It's always nice to have someone to help out when you're in a tight spot, and perhaps more importantly if you're trying to change someone else's mind, which can often be such a hard thing to do. Thanks:)

I don't know, Havok... I've been reading what you've posted here in this thread, and from what I can tell it seems as if you are trying to pick a fight. This is a very touchy subject, so I would strongly suggest being extra special nice and try to resist being defensive in your posts. Trying to demonstrate to everyone that you have special training in the medical field, only to then misspell words and use sloppy grammar is a bit self-defeating. Why don't you let this rest? It seems as if you really are convinced that they cannot safely perform an abortion on the Island, given their equipment and the present group of people to draw from. Others have a different opinion about it than you, but that's okay. Just please let it rest.


I would advise you to back off on the spelling and grammer thing because as a rule on this board you are not to bring up anyones lack of grammer or spelling. Its considered a violation of the rules. Although last I checked when has speeling and grammer ever mattered in the medical fiedl? Unless its to go on a pt care report, who cares about spelling and grammer? No one in the medical field.

As never once have I tried to pick a fight or pick a side on the abortion side. The only thing I have brought up is to rebutt what people have been saying about abortion in that it is a simple, safe and quick procedure even with medically trained personel and medical equipment. It would be a good idea for you to go back and read my posts if you are having trouble with what I am saying compared to what you think I am saying.
100%
Jeeze, can there not be a debate on a hypothetical ituation in a tv show without this turning into a morality debate!?

Whether abortion is something you personally think is wrong or not, the fact that the subject was not touched upon was odd for me. But maybe the writers are just not choosing to you there, but I know if I was in Sun's position I would at least want to know all my options, whether I approved of them or not.


Actually this is far from a mortality deabte. Except for a few people earlier no one has mentioned about if abortion is right or wrong. What we have been debating is how easy and safe. an abortion is with proper equipment and proper training.

I went and looked at death rates of mothers who had abortions. Today, less then 1% of mothers die from abortions. But before Roe v Wade, when all abortions were back-alley abortions, they percentage was still very, very low. It was noted where I read this that the abortions performed were by untrained hands in unsanitary conditions... and the death rates were still low.

Just thinking about it logically. If before Roe v Wade, back-alley abortions killed so many mothers, why would so many people be doing them?

Sun fearing death from abortion is just unrealistic in my opinion.

Apparently the pregnant women that died were involved in a reproduction program. They more or less knew what expected them and what was involved. That is not Sun's case, she never enroled in a reproduction program or whatever. Theoretically, she should fell free to abort. But ABC is disney, isn't it? Won't happen. Next seasn will be all about saving Sun and the baby.

Actually this is far from a mortality deabte. Except for a few people earlier no one has mentioned about if abortion is right or wrong. What we have been debating is how easy and safe. an abortion is with proper equipment and proper training.

Again... lets look at those easy and safe:

Sun lets the pregnancy continue: 99% she dies (and thats being generous)

Sun does an abortion: significantly less than 99%

Either way the child dies, so that's not an important factor (and why this isn't a debate on morality)

Sure Sun's odds of dying would be significantly greater than if they had a sanitary conditions off island, but she has TWO doctors there, a medical station, and is under 2 months. Her odds can't be THAT bad. And even if she woudln't want to risk it (again, it seems odd to not watn to risk death, when the alternative is certain death), it should at least be mentioned.

I went and looked at death rates of mothers who had abortions. Today, less then 1% of mothers die from abortions. But before Roe v Wade, when all abortions were back-alley abortions, they percentage was still very, very low. It was noted where I read this that the abortions performed were by untrained hands in unsanitary conditions... and the death rates were still low.

Just thinking about it logically. If before Roe v Wade, back-alley abortions killed so many mothers, why would so many people be doing them?

Sun fearing death from abortion is just unrealistic in my opinion.


The reason people were having backalley abortions even with them being so unsafe is because some people are really stupid. SO people think that having a kid or telling there parents about the pregnancy is a far worse fat than possibly dying from abortion. Just look at today, how many people do stupid things because they are not thinking. People do lots of stupid things daily that puts there life in jepordey because they think that the possiblity of death is not something that is going to happen to them.

Please provide a link to where is says backalley abortions are relativily safe. I would like to see where they got this info from.

Sorry to say but the article obvious skews itself one way without the facts all being present as it even pointed out itself.

My information and all I know about OBGYN comes from the Kansas board of EMS and the Kansas board of Nursing.

I am not trying to get into the whole abortion debate because I don;t want this thread to be closed but any article that claims it doesn't have all the data, yet makes a claim one way or another is not something anyone should use for a basis of anything. The article was poorly put together.

:) OK, you have you info, we have our info. You think that you info is right, we think that our info is right. You might know more about the birth aspect of it (based on your training), but I know significantly more about the abortion aspect of it. I have worked with two national reproductive rights groups for over ten years, I have been to many lectures, attended conferences, read medical journals and texts dealing with abortion. BUT...it doesn't matter.

Other posters are asking you to stop baiting and you haven't. This thread will close if this keeps up. Let's just agree to disagree about it and let it go.

The reason people were having backalley abortions even with them being so unsafe is because some people are really stupid. SO people think that having a kid or telling there parents about the pregnancy is a far worse fat than possibly dying from abortion. Just look at today, how many people do stupid things because they are not thinking. People do lots of stupid things daily that puts there life in jepordey because they think that the possiblity of death is not something that is going to happen to them.

Please provide a link to where is says backalley abortions are relativily safe. I would like to see where they got this info from.

Talking about back alley abortions runs the risk of degrading this conversation into a debate about abortion in general. Esspecially with such comments as "The reason people were having back alley abortions is because they are really stupid'.

The simple FACT is that Sun, if she has an abortion on the Island, has a chance that is significantly higher than 0% of living.

If Sun continues with the pregnancy, her chances of living are 0, or at the very least VERY close to 0.

Again... lets look at those easy and safe:

Sun lets the pregnancy continue: 99% she dies (and thats being generous)

Sun does an abortion: significantly less than 99%

Either way the child dies, so that's not an important factor (and why this isn't a debate on morality)

Sure Sun's odds of dying would be significantly greater than if they had a sanitary conditions off island, but she has TWO doctors there, a medical station, and is under 2 months. Her odds can't be THAT bad. And even if she woudln't want to risk it (again, it seems odd to not watn to risk death, when the alternative is certain death), it should at least be mentioned.


Yes two trained doctors but one(Jack) would have no training about abortions and Juliet might, might not have training. It seems unlikely that she has training as she deals more with research and trying to get women to survive pregnancy than dealing with aborting fetuses.

It comes down to this, if Juliet tells you that you have 2 months to live or abort now and probobly die or have a brian damaged baby that couldn't be aborted. Except in those 2 months maybe a cure could be found or maybe you could leave the island and someone else could save you or for some reason you survive, why on earth would you pick the abortion now. Why not give yourself a better chance for survival. 2 months is a long time.

I thought about this, but maybe the women who got pregnant were so happy to be pregnant that they were willing to take on the risk that they may die in hopes that they may be the first to survive and give birth to a healthy baby...

Talking about back alley abortions runs the risk of degrading this conversation into a debate about abortion in general. Esspecially with such comments as "The reason people were having back alley abortions is because they are really stupid'.

The simple FACT is that Sun, if she has an abortion on the Island, has a chance that is significantly higher than 0% of living.

If Sun continues with the pregnancy, her chances of living are 0, or at the very least VERY close to 0.


Backalley abortions is a term used for any abortion not performed in a medical enviornment with medically trained personel avaliable.

Also the whole comment about backalley abortions being stupid is ment in the sense that with any medical procedure it is smart to have a medical personel perform the procedure, not someone who has no training. Its just like where would you go for treatment for a heart attack. A hospital or your neighbor with no knowledge on heart attacks?
100%
:) OK, you have you info, we have our info. You think that you info is right, we think that our info is right. You might know more about the birth aspect of it (based on your training), but I know significantly more about the abortion aspect of it. I have worked with two national reproductive rights groups for over ten years, I have been to many lectures, attended conferences, read medical journals and texts dealing with abortion. BUT...it doesn't matter.

Other posters are asking you to stop baiting and you haven't. This thread will close if this keeps up. Let's just agree to disagree about it and let it go.


Never once have I baited anyone, I have only responded to what people have posted in response to what I have said. People are asking us to stop talking about the morality of abortion, which we are not talking about. We are talking about the possibility of abortio and its saftey on an island with no one medically trainined for abortions and the eqiupment necessary for abortions not on hand.

I for my part am simply debunking the myth that some people seem to have that having an abortion is an easy procedure and safe procedure no matter who is doing it and no matter where.

I for my part am simply debunking the myth that some people seem to have that having an abortion is an easy procedure and safe procedure no matter who is doing it and no matter where.

Great, let's move on...

Great, let's move on...

How can we do that when the thread is called why can't Sun have an abortion. I mean I don't see what else there is to talk about. If there is something else tell me and we can move the thread in that direction.

Yes two trained doctors but one(Jack) would have no training about abortions and Juliet might, might not have training. It seems unlikely that she has training as she deals more with research and trying to get women to survive pregnancy than dealing with aborting fetuses.

It comes down to this, if Juliet tells you that you have 2 months to live or abort now and probobly die or have a brian damaged baby that couldn't be aborted. Except in those 2 months maybe a cure could be found or maybe you could leave the island and someone else could save you or for some reason you survive, why on earth would you pick the abortion now. Why not give yourself a better chance for survival. 2 months is a long time.

But Sun has no rational reason to think they would find a cure in 2 months, and according to Juliet the problem is with conception on the island. Juliet has been ont he island for 3 years and was unable to come up with a cure. how is that anywhere NEAR the odds of surviving an on-island abortion.

The only rational I can see for not havign an abortion as soon as possible is 1. She really wants a baby and would rather risk it (to me this seems lame, but I'd accept it if the show brought it up and gave this as an answer), or 2. In hopes of being rescued so a safer abortion could be preformed.

If someone needed some other surgery or they'd die, they'd gladly take the risky surgey rather than just hope they get rescued. When Sawyer needed surgey for his gunshot wound, no one went "Why didn't Sawyer wait until he got off island?". Unsafe abortions aren't certain death, and the chance of living is high, again esspecially when the alternative is death.

Would you be opposed to ANYONE having a risky surgery on the island, simply because it's risky?

I believe Abortion is wrong. If it were to happen on the show, then it would be sick and terrible.

But Sun has no rational reason to think they would find a cure in 2 months, and according to Juliet the problem is with conception on the island. Juliet has been ont he island for 3 years and was unable to come up with a cure. how is that anywhere NEAR the odds of surviving an on-island abortion.

The only rational I can see for not havign an abortion as soon as possible is 1. She really wants a baby and would rather risk it (to me this seems lame, but I'd accept it if the show brought it up and gave this as an answer), or 2. In hopes of being rescued so a safer abortion could be preformed.

If someone needed some other surgery or they'd die, they'd gladly take the risky surgey rather than just hope they get rescued. When Sawyer needed surgey for his gunshot wound, no one went "Why didn't Sawyer wait until he got off island?". Unsafe abortions aren't certain death, and the chance of living is high, again esspecially when the alternative is death.

Would you be opposed to ANYONE having a risky surgery on the island, simply because it's risky?

Sawyer and Sun's situation are completly different. IF Sawyer didn't get fixed he would died in a day or 2. Sun has 2 months.

Also if you go into hospital's lots and I mean lots of cancer pts are given this option. Live a year or 2 and then die or go in for a high risk surgery and probobly/possibliy die now. Its about 50/50 what they choose. A lot more people than you think pick the sure life of 1 or 2 years than a good possibility of death right now.

ALso if we are saying that it happens at conception then an abortion is not an issue since conception has already happened with Sun. So either way she's dead. That is if it happens at conception.

Why can't pregnant mothers just have abortions? Or are they saying that they would STILL die for some reason? Maybe no one would perform one on her because they want to continue research and try to fix the problem?

How can we do that when the thread is called why can't Sun have an abortion. I mean I don't see what else there is to talk about. If there is something else tell me and we can move the thread in that direction.

Please read the first post above. The OP intended this thread to be about the consequences of what causes the problem in the first place. He/ she didn't write "would the actual procedure of an abortion kill Sun for some reason?" This is what you are arguing against. It is not about the actual procedure of an abortion. The question is, would an abortion even make a difference in the prognosis of the mother? Is the "thing" that happens at conception kill the mom even if the fetus is aborted. Let's get back to that. Do we think that an abortion could stop the process that conception started?

I believe Abortion is wrong. If it were to happen on the show, then it would be sick and terrible.

wrong forum, this is not about your personal opinions on abortion.

I believe Abortion is wrong. If it were to happen on the show, then it would be sick and terrible.

I understand you have an opinion on abortion. So do I. Mine is the same as yours.

BUT this is not the place to discuss if abortion is right or wrong.

I feel like everyone is ignoring my point that as far as Sun knows, rescue is moments away. I think she still has hope of getting off the island. Wouldn't that have a BIG impact on a decision to abort? I mean, she wanted to have Jin's baby so badly. Maybe she feels that if she gets off craphole island, she still can?

Please read the first post above. The OP intended this thread to be about the consequences of what causes the problem in the first place. He/ she didn't write "would the actual procedure of an abortion kill Sun for some reason?" This is what you are arguing against. It is not about the actual procedure of an abortion. The question is, would an abortion even make a difference in the prognosis of the mother? Is the "thing" that happens at conception kill the mom even if the fetus is aborted. Let's get back to that. Do we think that an abortion could stop the process that conception started?



wrong forum, this is not about your personal opinions on abortion.


Thanks for the re-focus Moll.

Anyway if Juliet said it starts at conception then that would been once the baby is concieved its a death sentance and nothing will stop the course laid out for the mother.

Thanks for the re-focus Moll.

Anyway if Juliet said it starts at conception then that would been once the baby is concieved its a death sentance and nothing will stop the course laid out for the mother.

This is what got me...

During the ultrasound, Juliet said that the fetus looked strong and had a strong heartbeat. If this thing happens at conception the way Juliet believes it to, wouldn't it show evidence of some kind of distress by now. If the mother's body starts treating it as a foreign body and her immune system goes after from conception, how can a three month fetus seem totally healthy? Do you think that it is possible that Juliet believes that it starts at conception because nothing else makes sense to her. We know that people heal remarkable quickly and that the sperm count of men on the island is through the roof. Maybe at some point in fetal development this mixture of super human healing and potency affects the fetus in such a way that it kills both. So the time bomb is ticking from the moment of conception, but the explosion doesn't happen until a specific moment in fetal development?