If you go back to a continuing theme in the show.It's the twin theme again.(Apollo/Artemis ,Bad Twin,Kate is a Gemini ,etc)

We know the Others have reached out into the real world to pick people to be here on the island ,like Juliet.Like Juliet, several were picked to be put on this particular flight.(Claire by the psychic,Sawyer by the Australian police,Kate by the Marshal,Walt and Michael by Brian,Locke by the walkabout guy,Boone and Shannon were moved from first class to the section that survived ,etc.)

So my theory is there were 2 planes.In the pilot when we see Jack,Kate and Charlie on the plane it looks different from when we see everyone board the plane in Exodus.

I also think the reason Christian's coffin was empty was the one Jack found was a dummy coffin.The real one was on the second plane.

I think it was planned all along to bring certain people here,to the island. And to have a dummy plane crash somewhere else to throw off the authorities.

Just because Ben acts like he didn;t know of this plan it doesn't mean that Jacob doesn't know.

Stacy Lane

If you go back to a continuing theme in the show.It's the twin theme again.(Apollo/Artemis ,Bad Twin,Kate is a Gemini ,etc)

We know the Others have reached out into the real world to pick people to be here on the island ,like Juliet.Like Juliet, several were picked to be put on this particular flight.(Claire by the psychic,Sawyer by the Australian police,Kate by the Marshal,Walt and Michael by Brian,Locke by the walkabout guy,Boone and Shannon were moved from first class to the section that survived ,etc.)

So my theory is there were 2 planes.In the pilot when we see Jack,Kate and Charlie on the plane it looks different from when we see everyone board the plane in Exodus.

I also think the reason Christian's coffin was empty was the one Jack found was a dummy coffin.The real one was on the second plane.

I think it was planned all along to bring certain people here,to the island. And to have a dummy plane crash somewhere else to throw off the authorities.

Just because Ben acts like he didn;t know of this plan it doesn't mean that Jacob doesn't know.

Stacy Lane


I agree but whatever jacob knows, Ben knows as well.

Anyone remember the old oceanic airlines site? didn't it show 2 planes leaving Sydney around the same time and didn't flight 815's number keep changing to another number.I tried to look it up but couldn't get the page to come up. Anyone think this may tie into Naomi's statement that 815 was found and there were no survivors?

Remember back when they had those missing posters out for sale, in the very beginning? I have one, and it says last seen boarding flight 280, whereabouts unknown...

I got on the site a couple of weeks ago looking to see if I could get Rose to come up (I couldn't) and at the bottom of the seat chart page the number kept changin to 777? What that means I have no clue.

I got on the site a couple of weeks ago looking to see if I could get Rose to come up (I couldn't) and at the bottom of the seat chart page the number kept changin to 777? What that means I have no clue.

777 is a type of plane.

I seem to recall a letter from the FAA or NTSB type of organization that was posted during the ARG last summer (or around then) that indicated there were two planes that crashed and one of them had been found with no survivors.

I think that that is important but I haven't quite got it all worked out yet.

Good catch!

777 is actually a holy number - for God or heaven i think

777 is actually a holy number - for God or heaven i think

yeh i initially thought that as well but dont know how it applies. Man is 5, the devli is 6 and God is 7. If you dont believe me then ask the Pixies.

A clue could be found in "One of Us", when Juliet arrived at the Mittelos facility, and they appeared to be at an airport utilized by Herarat Aviation. What if the goal was to have the passengers who were supposed to go on the real Oceanic Flight 815 moved quietly to another plane, also badged as Oceanic Flight 815, but under the control of Herarat, an arm of Mittelos, which is an arm of the Others, or at least who controls that group?

The fake Oceanic Flight 815 was supposed to LAND on the Island, where the passengers would be met by the Others and used as guinea pigs, with perhaps some (if they were on the list) integrated into the community.

Unfortunately, the event in 11/04 caused the plane to crash, rather than land, but there were enough survivors for the Others to work with.

The real Oceanic Flight 815 was brought down on purpose (military arm of Mittelos) with no survivors. No bodies were able to be recovered .

In the end, the outside world believes all on board the real Oceanic Flight 815 are dead, but in fact some survived and exist on an Island that is now virtually cut off.

A clue could be found in "One of Us", when Juliet arrived at the Mittelos facility, and they appeared to be at an airport utilized by Herarat Aviation. What if the goal was to have the passengers who were supposed to go on the real Oceanic Flight 815 moved quietly to another plane, also badged as Oceanic Flight 815, but under the control of Herarat, an arm of Mittelos, which is an arm of the Others, or at least who controls that group?

The fake Oceanic Flight 815 was supposed to LAND on the Island, where the passengers would be met by the Others and used as guinea pigs, with perhaps some (if they were on the list) integrated into the community.

Unfortunately, the event in 11/04 caused the plane to crash, rather than land, but there were enough survivors for the Others to work with.

The real Oceanic Flight 815 was brought down on purpose (military arm of Mittelos) with no survivors. No bodies were able to be recovered .

In the end, the outside world believes all on board the real Oceanic Flight 815 are dead, but in fact some survived and exist on an Island that is now virtually cut off.


I like this........but what if they did find bodies with the real flight 815? Could they clone the losties and place the clones on one plane and the real losties on another plane?

Sorry guys, I'm actually new to this whole "Lost" phenom.

My view might be completely invalid, but do we know where flight 815 was going? I know, in the episodes that I've seen (not earlier episodes) they only mention they were leaving from Sidney. So, is it possible that each of the characters were going to different places and somehow were chosen to be "sorted" into an unmarked (or un-named) plane? If that was the case, all of the passengers would have departed under the rader and the real flight 815 would have went down with no survivors. Again, this could be pointless, but I haven't seen one episode where they were like, "What were you going to do when you got to Atlanta?" and then someone was like, "Atlanta?? I was going to Houston?!?!?"

Also, I still don't know that I believe the Others were involved with the plane coming and crashing. I can still remember that look on Ben's face when he sent the guys to do recon. He looked suprised that they were there. Dunno, just some thoughts I had. neo

A clue could be found in "One of Us", when Juliet arrived at the Mittelos facility, and they appeared to be at an airport utilized by Herarat Aviation. What if the goal was to have the passengers who were supposed to go on the real Oceanic Flight 815 moved quietly to another plane, also badged as Oceanic Flight 815, but under the control of Herarat, an arm of Mittelos, which is an arm of the Others, or at least who controls that group?

The fake Oceanic Flight 815 was supposed to LAND on the Island, where the passengers would be met by the Others and used as guinea pigs, with perhaps some (if they were on the list) integrated into the community.

Unfortunately, the event in 11/04 caused the plane to crash, rather than land, but there were enough survivors for the Others to work with.

The real Oceanic Flight 815 was brought down on purpose (military arm of Mittelos) with no survivors. No bodies were able to be recovered .

In the end, the outside world believes all on board the real Oceanic Flight 815 are dead, but in fact some survived and exist on an Island that is now virtually cut off.
Ok, I'll bite. Playing devil's advocate here, because I like the theory. Who flew the real flight 815, and were there any passengers on board when it departed?

"My view might be completely invalid, but do we know where flight 815 was going? I know, in the episodes that I've seen (not earlier episodes) they only mention they were leaving from Sidney"


It was going to Los Angeles. They were all going to Los Angeles.

Sorry guys, I'm actually new to this whole "Lost" phenom.

My view might be completely invalid, but do we know where flight 815 was going? I know, in the episodes that I've seen (not earlier episodes) they only mention they were leaving from Sidney. So, is it possible that each of the characters were going to different places ...

No, the flight was Sydney to Los Angeles and the characters were intending to go to Los Angeles.

A clue could be found in "One of Us", when Juliet arrived at the Mittelos facility, and they appeared to be at an airport utilized by Herarat Aviation. What if the goal was to have the passengers who were supposed to go on the real Oceanic Flight 815 moved quietly to another plane, also badged as Oceanic Flight 815, but under the control of Herarat, an arm of Mittelos, which is an arm of the Others, or at least who controls that group?

The fake Oceanic Flight 815 was supposed to LAND on the Island, where the passengers would be met by the Others and used as guinea pigs, with perhaps some (if they were on the list) integrated into the community.
.

Nice idea, but we found out in OOU that they didn't know who was on the plane at the time of the crash. Ben and Juliet went to the Flame and asked Mikhail to find out who was on the plane and any info that he could about the passengers. Ben would not need to know this if there was already a list and that the crash was planned.

I remember back during the first or second season of "The Apprentice" (I don't watch anymore) Donald Trump was talking about his own private 747/777 (don't remember which) and he mentioned that he bought it from some surplus field out in the desert out west. His point was that for the money he would have spent to buy one of the smaller plush private planes, he bought one of these commercial surplus planes and had it remodeled to be extremely nice. Same price, a LOT more room.

Why is this relevant? Remember what Penny said about having enough money . . . how difficult would it be for someone with enough money and power to buy one of these planes, paint it and outfit it to look like 815 and for kicks, get a bunch of cadavers to stuff the plane before having it crash to the ground.

Extra bonus points if you get the black box of the original 815 to be found too. That wouldn't have been difficult to accomplish since the cockpit of the plane was out in the middle of the jungle.

Nice idea, but we found out in OOU that they didn't know who was on the plane at the time of the crash. Ben and Juliet went to the Flame and asked Mikhail to find out who was on the plane and any info that he could about the passengers. Ben would not need to know this if there was already a list and that the crash was planned.
Just because Ben is a good con doesn't mean he couldn't have been the mark for this particular con. Someone wants Ben to believe in a magic box and unbeknownst to him sends a planeful of passengers, which just happens to include a doctor and pregnant women, to the island.
100%
I remember back during the first or second season of "The Apprentice" (I don't watch anymore) Donald Trump was talking about his own private 747/777 (don't remember which) and he mentioned that he bought it from some surplus field out in the desert out west. His point was that for the money he would have spent to buy one of the smaller plush private planes, he bought one of these commercial surplus planes and had it remodeled to be extremely nice. Same price, a LOT more room.

Why is this relevant? Remember what Penny said about having enough money . . . how difficult would it be for someone with enough money and power to buy one of these planes, paint it and outfit it to look like 815 and for kicks, get a bunch of cadavers to stuff the plane before having it crash to the ground.

Extra bonus points if you get the black box of the original 815 to be found too. That wouldn't have been difficult to accomplish since the cockpit of the plane was out in the middle of the jungle.
Or, easier, place all the passengers in the mockup and crash the real plane.

I just typed in oceanic flight 815 on google and guess what? It says that Oceanic is now owned and operated by hansoair. Now there is a name we haven't heard in awhile. So now we definetly know that there is a plane/island connection.

yeh i initially thought that as well but dont know how it applies. Man is 5, the devli is 6 and God is 7. If you dont believe me then ask the Pixies.



Actually 5 is not man;s number.

6 is the number of man and 666 is the mark of the Beast (the antichrist)

7 is the number of God or of completion. On the 7th day God rested after he Created everything including us on the 6th day. Genesis 1:24 through Genesis 2:3

Nice idea, but we found out in OOU that they didn't know who was on the plane at the time of the crash. Ben and Juliet went to the Flame and asked Mikhail to find out who was on the plane and any info that he could about the passengers. Ben would not need to know this if there was already a list and that the crash was planned.

Well technically we didn't find this out for sure. We found out that Juliet didn't know but it's possible that Ben knew. It's also possible that the plane was supposed to have other passengers - something went wrong - so they had to find out about these new passengers. Maybe there is another entity at work here...

I don't that sounds way out there so maybe I've had too much coffee - it's very hot today, that could be it

I think in the end the explanation will likely be much simpler than many of us think. I was one of the ones that insisted the medical equipment in the Staff was ushered away back to Othersville in an underground tunnel. The simpler explanation turned out to be it was in a hidden chamber. Many were sure Juliet was on the island to make a man pregnant. Turns out it was women who were having issues.

Of course there are going to be exotic answers to some things--no doubt about it. There is a bit of temptation to assume the most exotic about the plane with respect to what the parachutist said. It seems to me the most simple is that another crash was staged.

Then this gets the temptation to create an exotic answer running even more furiously. It seems to me the simple explanation is to end the need for further search and rescue missions. The last thing The Others and whoever is in league with them would want is for the island to be discovered by the world at large.

By the way, I have a theory to postulate for everyone out there that may add one more reason Ben may have wanted the submarine destroyed. If the wreckage of the plane was found and all of the passengers were "dead and accounted for" by authorities, then if any of the Losties make it back to the real world, all hell would break loose. Hint: Ben has no intentions of letting any of them get back alive. Ever. At any cost.

Yes good points and thank you for not using Occam's Razor...:biggrin:

I think it's the heat...it would make sense that they don't want anyone searching for the plane and therfore discovering the island.

By the way, I have a theory to postulate for everyone out there that may add one more reason Ben may have wanted the submarine destroyed. If the wreckage of the plane was found and all of the passengers were "dead and accounted for" by authorities, then if any of the Losties make it back to the real world, all hell would break loose. Hint: Ben has no intentions of letting any of them get back alive. Ever. At any cost.

Ok I think Ben probably does want to keep everyone on the island but what about Michael and Walt? I am guessing that they didn't make it back but where are they?

yeh i initially thought that as well but dont know how it applies. Man is 5, the devli is 6 and God is 7. If you dont believe me then ask the Pixies.

HaHa. Love the Pixies!:biggrin:

I think joeydeese is right though, man's number is 6.

The others were surprised by the plane when it crashed, they were not prepared. Also they didn't have information on the people they needed to find it out. Therefore, they didn't arrange for the plane to crash - as far as I can see?

Ok I think Ben probably does want to keep everyone on the island but what about Michael and Walt? I am guessing that they didn't make it back but where are they?

I guess we'll have to wait and see. But I can't help but think about the wording of Ben when he told Michael how to "get home" and what he said to Jack. You know, the whole "As soon as you are off the island I'll let them go" or whatever it was he said knowing the sub was probably going to be blown up so Jack would never get off the island. I can't remember exactly what he said to Michael, but I seem to remember it was something like "you'll find rescue". I remember thinking that's an odd way of saying "you will be rescued". Think of it another way--"you'll find Rescue". Think about it for a minute.

I'm going with the theory that the plane crash was not on purpose. That once the others notifed the main land they put out a fake crash report with no surivers.

The dummy plan was probably just another Oceanic plane that Hanso Group carved up to make the crash look real.
Who would look for someone that they thought were already dead?

Anyone remember the old oceanic airlines site? didn't it show 2 planes leaving Sydney around the same time and didn't flight 815's number keep changing to another number.I tried to look it up but couldn't get the page to come up. Anyone think this may tie into (this name is a spoiler until it is told to us in an ep)'s statement that 815 was found and there were no survivors?

For a little while, it even said a plane arrived 20 minutes late! I do remember the OceanicAir site screwing with the departures and arrivals...I like that. The Lost Experience sure worked it's magic ;) :biggrin:

I thought that this was interesting. www.hansoair.org I don't know how old it is but I had not seen until I looked up flight 815

yeh i initially thought that as well but dont know how it applies. Man is 5, the devli is 6 and God is 7. If you dont believe me then ask the Pixies.

LOL MIKEY!!!! I was singing that song before I even reached your last sentence!

The only thing I have going agains a simulated 815 crash is that groups like the FAA would be involved, and they are pretty vigilant about documenting crash sites and I'm sure there would be serial numbers and ways to identify flight 815 accurately. Even if it was at the bottom of the ocean they could send deep sea unmanned vehicles down. But then again if you have unlimited resources I guess anything can be fabricated.

The others were surprised by the plane when it crashed, they were not prepared. Also they didn't have information on the people they needed to find it out. Therefore, they didn't arrange for the plane to crash - as far as I can see?
I'm not convinced they were THAT surprised. Really, if a plane unexpectedly falls out of the sky which is more likely:
1. Get down there and make lists.
2. OMG! OMG! OMG!

They may have been surprised that it happened when it did... but they were not surprised that it happened.

I think in the end the explanation will likely be much simpler than many of us think. I was one of the ones that insisted the medical equipment in the Staff was ushered away back to Othersville in an underground tunnel. The simpler explanation turned out to be it was in a hidden chamber. Many were sure Juliet was on the island to make a man pregnant. Turns out it was women who were having issues.

Of course there are going to be exotic answers to some things--no doubt about it. There is a bit of temptation to assume the most exotic about the plane with respect to what the parachutist said. It seems to me the most simple is that another crash was staged.

Then this gets the temptation to create an exotic answer running even more furiously. It seems to me the simple explanation is to end the need for further search and rescue missions. The last thing The Others and whoever is in league with them would want is for the island to be discovered by the world at large.

By the way, I have a theory to postulate for everyone out there that may add one more reason Ben may have wanted the submarine destroyed. If the wreckage of the plane was found and all of the passengers were "dead and accounted for" by authorities, then if any of the Losties make it back to the real world, all hell would break loose. Hint: Ben has no intentions of letting any of them get back alive. Ever. At any cost.
i think your dead right bro, i like the way your approaching the "equation"

I just typed in oceanic flight 815 on google and guess what? It says that Oceanic is now owned and operated by hansoair. Now there is a name we haven't heard in awhile. So now we definetly know that there is a plane/island connection.

I thought that this was interesting. www.hansoair.org I don't know how old it is but I had not seen until I looked up flight 815

hansoair.org is one of the many unofficial Lost websites, so anything on there can basically be considered fanfiction...

I'm not convinced they were THAT surprised. Really, if a plane unexpectedly falls out of the sky which is more likely:
1. Get down there and make lists.
2. OMG! OMG! OMG!

They may have been surprised that it happened when it did... but they were not surprised that it happened.
Totally. It's not like they said, "Oh my Lord, let's go help rescue those people!" Instead, Ben said "Listen, learn, don't get involved." It's as if they were prepared something was going to happen but didn't know the specifics.

The most curious line in the opening of "Tale of Two Cities" is Ben's: "There may actually be survivors." It's as if he were surprised.

Did Ben coordinate with someone off the island to land a plane full of passengers, one of which was a doctor? Did Desmond put a wrench in that scheme by causing the plane to crash instead?

Or, is someone else conning Ben and his minions, cultivating their faith in the magic box?

The most curious line in the opening of "Tale of Two Cities" is Ben's: "There may actually be survivors." It's as if he were surprised.

Did Ben coordinate with someone off the island to land a plane full of passengers, one of which was a doctor? Did Desmond put a wrench in that scheme by causing the plane to crash instead?

Or, is someone else conning Ben and his minions, cultivating their faith in the magic box?

It's an island where the "laws" of physics are more like "suggestions". Cancer is non-existent (at least up until that moment). Wounds heal faster. Pregnant women die. A cloud of smoke that seems to be semi-sentient and has a very bad attitude roams the land. Someone named Jacob who seems to have extraordinary powers of some sort and despite all the technological advances of the world, nobody seems to know about the island.

Would you be surprised to see a plane fall from the sky there? Would you be totally surprised if there were survivors?

Interesting that the fan site www.hansoair.org (http://www.hansoair.org) discusses the loss of multiple planes in 2004 by Oceanic Air....and now there may be credence to a two plane theory.

The oceanic-air site appears disabled right now - at least for me. Maybe the site is having a lot of hits after this recent reveal.

I have been trying to get oceanic since weds. but couldn't thats why I thought (mistakenly) that hansoair had taken its place.

this sounds a lot like this conspiracy theory or true story depending on who you belive called Operation NorthWoods which wanted to use 2 planes one real one fake to shot down and get us to attack Cuba in the 60's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

I'm pretty sure, but correct me if I'm wrong, that flight codes stay the same for all flights on the same route, i.e. all Oceanic flights from Sydney to LA leaving at, say, 11am will have the flight code 815. So isn't it possible that a second flight 815 also crashed, and this is the one with no survivors?

I'm going with the theory that the plane crash was not on purpose. That once the others notifed the main land they put out a fake crash report with no surivers.

Yes, this seems the most logical explanation to me. The others must have a very powerful organization backing them.

Way back, during the first season, the Oceanic Air website had a place where you could look up the status of flights. I remember they had a departure/arrival board where clicking on flight 815 in a particular way caused the board to flash and change. The flight number 815 changed as part of the process - to 817 if I recall correctly.

Does anyone else remember this?

I do remember it. I just don't remember if the number changed to 817 -- I read somewhere else it changed to 777 which is just the type of aircraft. By the way, the site is not working for me anymore. Not sure if that is a widespread problem or just my computer. I was able to get on it a few weeks ago.

yeh i initially thought that as well but dont know how it applies. Man is 5, the devli is 6 and God is 7. If you dont believe me then ask the Pixies.

hehe.. you could probably come up with a 'Monkey Gone To Heaven Theory of Lost' if you tried hard enough:

the creature in the sky
got sucked in a hole
now there's a hole in the sky

creature=plane?
hole in sky=purple sky event?

:eek2:;)

I'm going with the theory that the plane crash was not on purpose. That once the others notifed the main land they put out a fake crash report with no surivers.

Yes, this seems the most logical explanation to me. The others must have a very powerful organization backing them.

I'm thinking there was only ONE plane that crashed. The REPORT of Flight 815 was fake. Hanso..arranges for fake reporters to send back fake video footage of a fake crash. The second crash never happened. Why go to all the time and expense and money to make a real fake crash in this day and age when you can go digital and make the whole thing up?

In the pilot when we see Jack,Kate and Charlie on the plane it looks different from when we see everyone board the plane in Exodus.

ARGH. That was because the set for the plane interior was most likely dismantled after the Pilot was filmed, and they had to try and recreate the set for "Exodus". They even managed to match the patterns on the seats for the most part, for god's sake!

http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lostpilotexodus1oj6.jpg

http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lostpilotexodus2id6.jpg

http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lostpilotexodus3eu5.jpg

You'd think if the producers wanted to hint us that it's not the same plane, they'd do it a little more obviously than matching everything almost perfectly and then just leaving out the headrest covers and the magazine pockets on the sides of the partition walls. I mean, Sawyer's hairstyle was different between the Pilot and "Exodus" (as well as between the Pilot and "Tabula Rasa"), does that mean Sawyer boarded the plane, something happened to him, he got his hair cut, he was put on a different plane with no memory, crashed, and then suddenly grew his hair again after hearing Rousseau's transmission? Sometimes prop discrepancies are really just prop discrepancies.

Well, Locke had to be carried on the plane. So, that would make it easier to funnel him to a certain plane. Hurley's car broke down and he was late. The lady at the gate had to call, and Hurley was given a final seat, so maybe they let him on because he was supposed to be on the plane that went to the island. The rest of the losties all boarded at the same time. That's all from the season one final.

I agree but whatever jacob knows, Ben knows as well.

I disagree, I think Jacob is to Ben as Ben is to people like Juliet.

777 is actually a holy number - for God or heaven i think
Nah, I think you got it mixed up, 666 in the mark of the beast, or Satan.
~Laura

If you go back to a continuing theme in the show.It's the twin theme again.(Apollo/Artemis ,Bad Twin,Kate is a Gemini ,etc)

We know the Others have reached out into the real world to pick people to be here on the island ,like Juliet.Like Juliet, several were picked to be put on this particular flight.(Claire by the psychic,Sawyer by the Australian police,Kate by the Marshal,Walt and Michael by Brian,Locke by the walkabout guy,Boone and Shannon were moved from first class to the section that survived ,etc.)

So my theory is there were 2 planes.In the pilot when we see Jack,Kate and Charlie on the plane it looks different from when we see everyone board the plane in Exodus.

I also think the reason Christian's coffin was empty was the one Jack found was a dummy coffin.The real one was on the second plane.

I think it was planned all along to bring certain people here,to the island. And to have a dummy plane crash somewhere else to throw off the authorities.

Just because Ben acts like he didn;t know of this plan it doesn't mean that Jacob doesn't know.

Stacy Lane


This is a great thought. Also, if you think back to the episode Further Instructions, Lockes vision of him being pushed through the airport by Boone and he sees Ben checking the survivors through, it seems to imply that Ben played a part in the people getting on the plane.

Nah, I think you got it mixed up, 666 in the mark of the beast, or Satan.
~Laura

Actually, in the Bible, 777 mean seven hundred and seventy-seven. :biggrin:

The number 7 does have significance, however.