The only thing I really found interesting in this episode was the fact that Sun is the reason Jin became the killer for her father. Sun is really bad and evil deep down. Now we know why she is not on the Good List.

Remember that Eko was possibly on that good list, they tried dragging him into the jungle once too. Was Eko good?!! I know that he was forced into the life that he lead, and deep down I don't think he was evil, but the guy did alot of terrible things, even if he did them to bad people. I tend to think that the good list isn't what we think it is.
i don't think that Sun is evil. She shot Colleen yes, but that's because she feared that her life was in danger. She threatened Jin's mother only because she knew that if she did, she wouldn't come around asking for more money and trying to blackmail her again. That doesn't make her evil. She took the money from her father because she had no other choice. In that instant she made the decision whether to bring shame to her husband or make him work for her father. I think she made the right choice even though in the end it kind of tore their marriage apart. They are okay now, I'm happy to see them so happy.

I empathize with the position Sun was in. She paid his mother the 100 grand in order to save Jin's dignity. Yes, she knew what it meant for Jin to "work directly for her father", but that was Sun's Catch-22.

Sun came across as very loyal to Jin but also as a very strong woman. Maybe "evil" is too strong a word, but "ruthless" anyway. She basically threatened to have Jin's mother killed if she returned or contacted Jin. She told her father that she needed the money and then threatened to expose his "business practices" if he didn't give it to her. And she knows what "working for" her father really means, and she takes the money anyway, setting Jin up for a career that almost destroys him. I had to wonder whether or not it was Jin's shame she was worried about, or whether it was her own? Either way, she comes across in the episode as being willing to do absolutely anything to accomplish her purposes. No wonder she was able to shoot Colleen.

Sun isn't evil. She's just complicated like all of the characters. Everyone makes mistakes. She didn't know that asking for the money would make Jin a hitman. Once she played that card with her father it was too late to take it all back.

Actually I think this showed just how much she loves Jin. She wasn't the least bit phased by Jin's humble beginnings. The scene with Mr. Kwon was touching. And, I love her threat to Jin's evil mother.

Sun is far from the dainy little flower that she's portrayed as on the beach.

Sun isn't any worse than anyone else stranded on that island. She struggled to do what was best for Jin. He was ashamed of his family, his father and Sun both knew that, so Sun tried to do the same thing that Jin was doing and wanted- keeping it a secret.

I wonder if Mr. Paik wouldn't have recruited Jin eventually anyway. Jin didn't know about the money when he took the job, did he? He took it freely, not because Sun borrowed the money... I can't remember.

Aw, I really think Sun felt like she was in an impossible position. Remember, she did promise Jin's sweet father that she would never let him find out about his mother, to spare him shame. She probably felt she had to keep that promise.

What I didn't understand was why, after threatening Jin's mother to make her death "a reality" (go Sun!) she didn't take the money back. You'd think the threat of death would have been enough to shut her up, and Sun could have given the money back and spared Jin working for her father. Tough situation either way I guess.

The only thing I really found interesting in this episode was the fact that Sun is the reason Jin became the killer for her father. Sun is really bad and evil deep down. Now we know why she is not on the Good List.


Sun isn't evil. She's just a moron (like everyone else on the island).

Sun tries making a deal with her father - he gives her the money, she keeps pretending everything is fine and ignores what his line of "work". But then what does Sun do? Daddy decides if she takes the money, Jin must work for him. So Sun takes the money so she can save Jin from "shame", but she knows Jin will have to be involved with Daddy's immoral and criminal activities. I guess somehow in Sun's moronic little brain there's no shame in that.

First, she could have played hardball like Daddy and said no to his conditions. She could have picked up the money, said no to Jin working for him and said having her ignore what he does is enough. She could have added that she'll repay the money over time and simply walked out.

Better yet, if Sun wasn't such a moron, she would have made up some other reason to get the money from Daddy that did not involve Jin. That way, Jin wouldn't have been dragged into the whole thing in the first place.

Aw, I really think Sun felt like she was in an impossible position. Remember, she did promise Jin's sweet father that she would never let him find out about his mother, to spare him shame. She probably felt she had to keep that promise.

What I didn't understand was why, after threatening Jin's mother to make her death "a reality" (go Sun!) she didn't take the money back. You'd think the threat of death would have been enough to shut her up, and Sun could have given the money back and spared Jin working for her father. Tough situation either way I guess.

This I think was definitely an option, to threaten the mother and not give her any money and then give the money back to her father and spare Jin. I don't think she ever thought of it to be honest. I think she wanted to pay her off and get rid of her and as an afterthought for the mother to hold on to she threatened her so that she would be scared to ever come back to Sun for anything ever again.

Remember that Eko was possibly on that good list, they tried dragging him into the jungle once too. Was Eko good?!!

From "The Other 48 Days":

ANA: Why do you think they take some of us and not the others?

GOODWIN: That first night they took the strongest of us -- our quiet friend -- three other guys. They're all athletic, tough, threats.

Evil might seem like a strong word, but there is an underlying theme of good vs evil in the show.

She is a sheep in a wolf's clothing. Even in interacting with Juliet she was a tough cookie.

I think I fell in love with Sun a little bit last night...

I think I fell in love with Sun a little bit last night...

Yeah, me too. She's becoming a richly complex character.

I loved the control she took in her interactions with Juliet.

The only thing I really found interesting in this episode was the fact that Sun is the reason Jin became the killer for her father. Sun is really bad and evil deep down. Now we know why she is not on the Good List.

Point of order, but Jin isn't a killer. He's done bad things, but it's been confirmed by TPTB that Jae Lee committed suicide.

Point of order, but Jin isn't a killer. He's done bad things, but it's been confirmed by TPTB that Jae Lee committed suicide.

Point taken. As far as we know, he never actually killed someone. He just beat some people up REALLY bad.

Point taken. As far as we know, he never actually killed someone. He just beat some people up REALLY bad.

We also know that he hates his actions and himself for what he must do to keep Sun.

Sun isn't evil. She's just a moron (like everyone else on the island).

Sun tries making a deal with her father - he gives her the money, she keeps pretending everything is fine and ignores what his line of "work". But then what does Sun do? Daddy decides if she takes the money, Jin must work for him. So Sun takes the money so she can save Jin from "shame", but she knows Jin will have to be involved with Daddy's immoral and criminal activities. I guess somehow in Sun's moronic little brain there's no shame in that.

First, she could have played hardball like Daddy and said no to his conditions. She could have picked up the money, said no to Jin working for him and said having her ignore what he does is enough. She could have added that she'll repay the money over time and simply walked out.

Better yet, if Sun wasn't such a moron, she would have made up some other reason to get the money from Daddy that did not involve Jin. That way, Jin wouldn't have been dragged into the whole thing in the first place.

I laughed at this!!

I agree, I probably would have worded it a little differently, but...

They are all morons, and the reason that we all love them so much is that we are all morons too. We make poor decisions, follow our hearts over our heads. The moronic tendancies of the characters are what make them complex and interesting. How boring would it be if they were all perfect and always chose the correct course of action. There would be no show. It is their flaws, their "moronic" tendancies that make us come back for more. I think that I took the term "moronic" in a different way than Colin, but still agree.

I would say Sun is definitely on my list. She is by far the sexiest thing on the island and she's pretty tough too. You have to remember that you're dealing with a different culture also. I just find it hard to believe that situations that are out of control bring shame upon you. The only thing I could compare it to would be being raped, although being a guy I guess I'll never know what that is like either, unless of course I end up in prison someday. (I'm not trying to make light of this. I'm just making a comparision)
I found Jin's father to be the most honorable person on the episode last night, yet he was being shunned as shameful.

I empathize with the position Sun was in. She paid his mother the 100 grand in order to save Jin's dignity. Yes, she knew what it meant for Jin to "work directly for her father", but that was Sun's Catch-22.

I guess what Sun did is ok if you really feel that beating up/killing people for a Korean mob boss and owing him a personal debt that isn't even your's is preferable to knowing that your mother was a prostitute. Jin, being the decent guy that he seemed to be before he moved up from being a floor manager, surely would have wished that she didn't pay the money. That choice not only made him do things that he didn't want to do, it also destroyed his marriage and gave Sun an excuse to cheat on him.

I just can't believe how much sympathy Sun gets. What about Jin? Sun basically transformed the happy-go-lucky hotel employee into a thug that has to do nasty things for the father of his cheating wife. She seems pretty evil to me.

Sun came across as very loyal to Jin but also as a very strong woman. Maybe "evil" is too strong a word, but "ruthless" anyway. She basically threatened to have Jin's mother killed if she returned or contacted Jin. She told her father that she needed the money and then threatened to expose his "business practices" if he didn't give it to her. And she knows what "working for" her father really means, and she takes the money anyway, setting Jin up for a career that almost destroys him. I had to wonder whether or not it was Jin's shame she was worried about, or whether it was her own? Either way, she comes across in the episode as being willing to do absolutely anything to accomplish her purposes. No wonder she was able to shoot Colleen.

Shame is a very big deal within their society. In some cases worse than death. Sun did what she did to protect Jin from the truth and, I think, her father. How would he react if he found out his new son-in-law was the son of a prostitute?


First, she could have played hardball like Daddy and said no to his conditions. She could have picked up the money, said no to Jin working for him and said having her ignore what he does is enough. She could have added that she'll repay the money over time and simply walked out.

Better yet, if Sun wasn't such a moron, she would have made up some other reason to get the money from Daddy that did not involve Jin. That way, Jin wouldn't have been dragged into the whole thing in the first place.

I'm guessing you don't know much about the society they are from. Daughters do not play hardball with their fathers. They pretty much do as they are told. If she had tried to dictate the conditions he would have more likely refused entirely until he knew everything or ordered her to leave, maybe even disowning her completely if she made him mad enough. Knowing what we know about him he could well have threatened Jin's life or even her's. He is a ruthless man in a very hardcore class controlled society. Playing hardball was never an option.

I would also bet that if he did find otu about Jin's mother, Jin would disappear for bringing such shame on Sun's family. She might even suffer the same fate since she is married to him. Granted, things are not as hardcore as they once were when it comes to the class system but Sun's father comes across as pretty old fashioned about that sort of thing.

What I didn't understand was why, after threatening Jin's mother to make her death "a reality" (go Sun!) she didn't take the money back. You'd think the threat of death would have been enough to shut her up, and Sun could have given the money back and spared Jin working for her father.

Yes I thought the same thing. However, thinking a little more about it, she would have probably had to deal with the same type of "debt" if she had asked her father to kill a lady for "no reason." So I think she decided to just ask for 100K "for no reason" instead.

The only thing I really found interesting in this episode was the fact that Sun is the reason Jin became the killer for her father. Sun is really bad and evil deep down. Now we know why she is not on the Good List.

So motives, circumstances and beliefs count for nothing? It is strictly actions which make a person "bad and evil deep down"?

How very plodding and dull it must be to live in a black and white world.

The only thing I really found interesting in this episode was the fact that Sun is the reason Jin became the killer for her father. Sun is really bad and evil deep down. Now we know why she is not on the Good List.

I would'nt quite say 'Evil' She was doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. (Until she slept with the other guy, Of course!) But Jin has been hiding a few things too. Why should'nt he? I would if I had that kind of mother! Sun did screw up Jin's life. I loved the tension between Sun and Juliet. Great episode! (Sorry I went off topic!) Sun is weaving quite a web in her relationship. Sun is a tough cookie!

The only thing I really found interesting in this episode was the fact that Sun is the reason Jin became the killer for her father. Sun is really bad and evil deep down. Now we know why she is not on the Good List.

I don't think she's evil, but if I were Juliet, I'd be very careful. I don't think Sun will suffer her deceptions lightly.

Morally bad or wrong; wicked
Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful
Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous
Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous
Characterized by anger or spite; maliciousI think if we look at the definition of evil, then everyone on the Island is evil.

As far as Sun is concerned, I think we learned last night that she is her father's daughter. It will be interesting to see how that plays out on the Island.

The only thing I really found interesting in this episode was the fact that Sun is the reason Jin became the killer for her father. Sun is really bad and evil deep down. Now we know why she is not on the Good List.

I don't think so. Sun did what she did because (in part) she grew up in a "shame culture" - one where being embarrassed, "losing face" in front of others is the worst thing that can happen to a person. From our standpoint it would have made far more sense for her to just tell Jin, "this crazy woman is trying to blackmail me," etc. and told him everything. But she didn't want to shame him, so she did this end-run and visited his father instead.

Jin's father also - instead of wanting to come clean with Jin - begged Sun not to tell Jin about his mother, not to tell him Sun had visited her father in law, etc.

Because everyone was trying to "save face," lies piled on lies - and Jin got sucked into the local mafia.

But I don't think Sun did any of this out of evil - she was just trying to "fix" things, and (as is so common in LOST) telling lies only made it worse.

I liked the comment above, that LOST appeals to us because the characters are so like us. Everyone has on their head "things done and undone," stupid decisions, vanities, etc. In a sense, The Island is a massive "bonfire of the vanities," because all these false values and shames and deceits are being "burned" out of people, and Sun and Jin's story arc shows that most acutely.

We the viewers "know" that it would have been far better for Sun, Jin, Jae, and everyone else had Sun and Jin simply gone and lived in Jin's father's fishing village; if Jin had mended nets with his father and Sun had been a simple fisherman's wife. (Did anyone else love Jin's father's room? It was beautiful - everything about it was so like The Island in many ways.) But they couldn't - and so their path led them to The Island.

I think Sun made these choices thinking that she was doing what was best for Jin. She was trying to protect him from the shame of admitting to her and to Mr Paik that Jin's father was a lowly fisherman. She was also protecting him from shame if he was to find out his mother was a prostitute. I believe Sun thought it was better to protect Jin from this shame than for him to work for her father. I don't think this was the right choice and I would argue that Sun might regret or at least question if she made the right decision. She can't take it back now.

This reminds me of Kate choosing to blow up Wayne. She was trying to protect her mother. But Kate's choice hurt her mother in a different way that Kate didn't expect.

Sun paid of Jin's mother in an attempt to spare Jin from the pain of having his past become public knowledge. Jin lied about his father and excluded him from the wedding and from knowing Sun because of his shame at his origins. I think that from the way their culture is portrayed on the show Sun was taking the only course she saw that would allow her husband to live the life he wanted. The way matters turned out was not what she intended so based on her motives I don't see her as evil. If making mistakes = being evil, we are all doomed to a life of evil. :angel:

The original post is in error in calling Jin a killer. What we actually saw on the show was Jin going to great lengths to avoid becoming a killer.

I think Sun made these choices thinking that she was doing what was best for Jin. She was trying to protect him from the shame of admitting to her and to Mr Paik that Jin's father was a lowly fisherman. She was also protecting him from shame if he was to find out his mother was a prostitute. I believe Sun thought it was better to protect Jin from this shame than for him to work for her father. I don't think this was the right choice and I would argue that Sun might regret or at least question if she made the right decision. She can't take it back now.

This reminds me of Kate choosing to blow up Wayne. She was trying to protect her mother. But Kate's choice hurt her mother in a different way that Kate didn't expect.

I totally agree! I really think Sun did it for love...She should have never given the money to the woman, I wish she had told her father that the woman was blackmailing her because of what Mr Paik does!! Then he would wipe her out!

The only thing I really found interesting in this episode was the fact that Sun is the reason Jin became the killer for her father. Sun is really bad and evil deep down. Now we know why she is not on the Good List.

Firstly, the only reason Sun took the money was to conceal her husband's hideous pedigree from the public, and him, and her dad...saving everyone alot of suffering and scandal.
Secondly, Sun was on the good list until she shot Colleen in the sub. Colleen said 'I know you, Sun Wa Kwon..and your not a killer. If you come with me now, everything will be ok. If you shoot me, then we will become your enemy."
Sun is an exceptionally giving character. She married a man, social and monetary status unseen. That's alot for someone in her culture and social stattus. She has always been self sacrificing and helpfull to those on the island with her.

It is really a great tragedy that Sun ended up in a sense causing all of the conflict between her and Jin.

But with the information that she had at the time she did the right thing. Remember Jin's dad asked her to not tell Jin as a personal favor to him (the dad). How could anyone say no to that sweet old man????

I don't think Sun is evil. She is definitely not as innocent as she first seemed, but I would say shes more tough than she is evil. She protects herself and the people she loves, I don't think that necessarily qualifies as evil.

I think Sun should've dealt with the blackmail differently. She should have talked to Jin about the problem or her father. Paying off a blackmailer will just ensure they come back and ask for more someday. Plus, I was a little surprised Sun had no money of her own. Surely she had an allowance or something expensive she has gotten from daddy over the years. If Sun had added some of her own cash to the blackmail amount I would've felt more sympathetic for her.

To me seeing Sun pay off Jin's 'mom' without even verifying the person's identity seems very foolish. Yes, Sun is young an impetuous but she's known her dad is a mobster for some time. Surely this isn't the first blackmail attempt against the family. If the hooker mom knows and Jin's dad knows the secret will come out eventually.

f

Yeah - it's possible that Sun could have just had some of her dad's goons go beat up or even murder Jin's mom; they seem to not be to worried about the law. But it might have been hard to do that without Jin finding ouit.

I don't believe she is evil. BUT she is very complicated.

...... I tend to think that the good list isn't what we think it is..........
I agree. I always thought the Others used the term "good" to refer to people they need for something.
I.E. Jack, He's "good". They needed him to do surgery on Ben.
I think the ones on the "Bad" list are of no real use to the Others.
I could be wrong, though.....:rolleyes:
~laura

Here's a little word game, based on things that happened in the epis, added with some interpretation:

I don't think Sun is evil. But evil is surrounding Sun, so whoever has to do with Sun, may as well be confronted with evil.

Follow this: In "Exposé", Sawyer is sitting in his beach chair reading "Evil under the Sun" by Agatha Christie when Nikki comes up to him, asking for a gun. "Evil under the Sun" is about murder on an island, a live person posing as a dead body and the time of death not being what it appeared to be. Whaw..!

A live person posing as a body... : that could apply to Jin's father, because he's alive and posing as a death because Jin told Sun he died. Moreover, the time of death was not what it appeared to be, because Jin had Sun believe that it happened while he was in the army, while Sun thought it happened when Jin was sixteen. Strange coincidence with the book's story.

But another live person who has been posing as a death body is Mikhail Bakunin. And the time of death of him is obviously not what it appeared to be.

So... were the writers giving a clue in Exposé as to what was going to happen in next epis ? Or what ?

My take is that Sun is above evil. Hence the book title "Evil under the Sun".

:biggrin:
cu,
me

Never read the book, but love the movie! Maggie Smith is awesome.

I think that probably has more to do with with Nikki (and/or Paolo) appearing dead when they were really alive, as the one woman appeared dead from a distance but was really alive.