IF
Years in the future civilization found the island and Oceanic Flight 815 wreckage
AND
all the passengers (Jack, Locke, Kate, etc) were all dead from old age or gone from the island orwhatever,
AND
Parachute Girl is from the future
THEN
What Parachute Girl said (everyone on Flight 815 is dead, etc) makes some sense. She has traveled back in time.

Is this what happend?

That would mean that what we heard crashing in the ocean was not a helicopter, but a flying Delorean.

Great Scott!

:biggrin:

There is a principle called Occam's Razor, which simply put is, "A complicated explanation is unneccesary where a simple one will suffice."

The tail section landed in the water along with an assortment of bodies.
The fuselage was washed off the beach and into the ocean along with an assortment of bodies.
A couple of pieces of wreckage found in the ocean + a couple of bodies + Invisible Island = Plane went down in the middle of the ocean, and no one survived.

Simple.

No need to invoke time travel scenarios.

Unless you are a type of person who is apt to blame time travel when you loose socks in the dryer.

Or maybe it was a cover up by a higher organization, and they just said it was flight 815, and made it look like everyone was dead. Probably Mittelos, or Paik industries, Mr Paik certainly looks like the kind of guy who's powerful enough to cover something like this up. Or maybe Charles Widmore?

Everyone knows that the sock-gnomes are responsible for that, but they have been known to dabble in time travel.

Just saying.

Personally, I think her information is faulty because either:

A) She is a plant by the Others.
B) The publicised information about the crash and no survivors is fake.

Everyone knows that the sock-gnomes are responsible for that, but they have been known to dabble in time travel.

Just saying.

Personally, I think her information is faulty because either:

A) She is a plant by the Others.
B) The publicised information about the crash and no survivors is fake.

or, as imfromthepast eloquently put it...

C) The wreckage from the fuselage and tail section washed further out to sea and this is what was found by the authorities.

No need for over-complication.

or, as imfromthepast eloquently put it...

C) The wreckage from the fuselage and tail section washed further out to sea and this is what was found by the authorities.

No need for over-complication.
Your forgetting a main premise about Lost - it is very hard to leave the vicinity of the island. Wreckage that washed out to sea could not be found by anyone for the same reason Desmond could not sail away from the island. You have to navigate to a specific point to have any chance of leaving (at least that is what we were told when Walt and Michael left).
The idea that the wreckage could have navigated to the exact location required to leave the island is, in and of itself, over-complicated.

about search parties finding pieces of the wreckage....I don't think it would be that easy. Most of the times wrecked ships and planes stay undiscovered for years underwater.
Besides, are we forgetting the pilot's quote: they are looking for us in the wrong place?
They were 1000 miles off course. Where were all those pieces of flight 815 found? If they were looking for Flight 815 in the wrong place, how come they found the plane?????
Does it mean that she is lying? If so, what for? How on earth can she believe that she will convince 50 people that they are not who they think they are? Is she trying to convince them that they are dead? Who, amongst the Losties, is gonna believe that? What's the point?
What about Ben and Mikhail checking the news about the crash? What about all the information about these passengers that they got? Names, professions, personal problems, etc.
What's going on? I'm still scratching my head about it...
Was this the game changer, by the way?

Your forgetting a main premise about Lost - it is very hard to leave the vicinity of the island. Wreckage that washed out to sea could not be found by anyone for the same reason Desmond could not sail away from the island. You have to navigate to a specific point to have any chance of leaving (at least that is what we were told when Walt and Michael left).
The idea that the wreckage could have navigated to the exact location required to leave the island is, in and of itself, over-complicated.

teksmith, I do agree with you to a great extent. However, this still remains to me the most plausible expalination based on what we know. We know that the others use a submarine to access the island (or at least, this is what they convinced Juliet, Jack and Locke they did), and that Michael and Walt sailed off the island (or at least appreared to). Therefore, the way to and from the island appears to be out at sea. We saw the wreckage washed out to sea... ergo, my conclusion.

How does this stack up in terms of what we know compared to grand conspiracies, duplicate planes, alternate universes?

Personally, I think there will be a more esoteric explaination than 'the plane washed out to sea'. However, for now, until I see something in-show and not 'in someones overactive imagination' that presents a more plausible alternate theory, this is the best-fit.

That would mean that what we heard crashing in the ocean was not a helicopter, but a flying Delorean.

Great Scott!
:rotflmao2:


The tail section landed in the water along with an assortment of bodies.
The fuselage was washed off the beach and into the ocean along with an assortment of bodies.
A couple of pieces of wreckage found in the ocean + a couple of bodies + Invisible Island = Plane went down in the middle of the ocean, and no one survived.

Simple.

No need to invoke time travel scenarios.
This doesn't work at all, for the following reasons:

I don't believe the Island is "invisible" in the sense that it literally cannot be seen physically. Michael and Sawyer saw it in Adrift, and it was clearly visible from Alcatraz Island.

In order for them to find the wreckage and bodies in the water and NOT see the Island, they would have to be very far away from it. Even assuming that some of the wreckage happened to drift in the right direction, away from the Island, by the time it would be far away enough, the water would be so deep that they would be unlikely to find any wreckage at that depth.

Think about it. Even in the position Sawyer and Michael were at at the end of Adrift, the Island was plainly visible. It does, after all, have mountains on it. And where they were, the water had to have been a few dozen feet deep already. By the time you would be far enough out to not detect the Island, the water would be hundreds of feet deep.

I'm no expert but it seems unlikely that this explanation could work. Besides, I certainly think they're going to have a more interesting explanation than that after the build-up. This is a revelation on par with Desmond saying "I think I crashed your plane."

teksmith, I do agree with you to a great extent. However, this still remains to me the most plausible expalination based on what we know. We know that the others use a submarine to access the island (or at least, this is what they convinced Juliet, Jack and Locke they did), and that Michael and Walt sailed off the island (or at least appreared to). Therefore, the way to and from the island appears to be out at sea. We saw the wreckage washed out to sea... ergo, my conclusion.

How does this stack up in terms of what we know compared to grand conspiracies, duplicate planes, alternate universes?

Personally, I think there will be a more esoteric explaination than 'the plane washed out to sea'. However, for now, until I see something in-show and not 'in someones overactive imagination' that presents a more plausible alternate theory, this is the best-fit.
With visions of dead people (Eko Jack, etc), handicap miraculously walking (Locke) - miraculous healing in general, smoke monsters, clairvoyance (Desmond), and everything else going on on this island time travel is not too far fetched. The only ones with "overactive imaginations" are the writers.

It may just be wishful thinking... but I think the easiest explanation is that a false report was handed out.

If Mittelos Science can go undetected by the medical community... and secure an island of that magnitude, no doubt they have some power and authority in the world.

I think once they collected all their info about the passengers, Ben simply called up Richard Alpert and ordered a fabricated "finding" with all passengers pronounced dead.

I don't think there's any extravagant explanation (time travel), nor do I think its likely to find a plane in the ocean within 90 days once its gone 1,000 miles off-course and submerged (it was ripped in half).

It may just be wishful thinking... but I think the easiest explanation is that a false report was handed out.

If Mittelos Science can go undetected by the medical community... and secure an island of that magnitude, no doubt they have some power and authority in the world.

I think once they collected all their info about the passengers, Ben simply called up Richard Alpert and ordered a fabricated "finding" with all passengers pronounced .

I don't think there's any extravagant explanation (time travel), nor do I think its likely to find a plane in the ocean within 90 days once its gone 1,000 miles off-course and submerged (it was ripped in half).

This is an ok theory, as good as many, but the FAA simply wouldnt accept a claim as trite as that without follow up. The agency would demand access to the crash site as well as the recovered bodies and the like. Basically a hard core investigation would follow suit.

Additionally you can be pretty sure that family members would not accept something as simple as a memo from some "person" with claims about a "finding". I think even the writers would know that. Its interesting how that woman's last few words from this epi has spawned so many new ideas and man i dont even know which one to accept, but i think this one is less likely IMHO

Or maybe it was a cover up by a higher organization, and they just said it was flight 815, and made it look like everyone was dead. Probably Mittelos, or Paik industries, Mr Paik certainly looks like the kind of guy who's powerful enough to cover something like this up. Or maybe Charles Widmore?


I'm leaning in that direction also.

With visions of dead people (Eko Jack, etc), handicap miraculously walking (Locke) - miraculous healing in general, smoke monsters, clairvoyance (Desmond), and everything else going on on this island time travel is not too far fetched. The only ones with "overactive imaginations" are the writers.

:biggrin:

I agree with you 100%, I'm sure they have a great explanation in store for us.

It may just be wishful thinking... but I think the easiest explanation is that a false report was handed out.

If Mittelos Science can go undetected by the medical community... and secure an island of that magnitude, no doubt they have some power and authority in the world.

I think once they collected all their info about the passengers, Ben simply called up Richard Alpert and ordered a fabricated "finding" with all passengers pronounced dead.

I don't think there's any extravagant explanation (time travel), nor do I think its likely to find a plane in the ocean within 90 days once its gone 1,000 miles off-course and submerged (it was ripped in half).
Why do you think Mittelos Science has gone undetected by the medical community (I probably missed something)?

It might be somewhat challenging to convince everyone (FAA, relatives, etc) that the plane crashed and there are no survivors with just a false report. There would need to be some compelling evidence.

Parachute Girl said they found the plane and not only that there were no survivors, but went as far to say everyone was dead. This implies they actually found bodies. If they have bodies, loved ones are going to want them.

Your forgetting a main premise about Lost - it is very hard to leave the vicinity of the island. Wreckage that washed out to sea could not be found by anyone for the same reason Desmond could not sail away from the island. You have to navigate to a specific point to have any chance of leaving (at least that is what we were told when Walt and Michael left).
The idea that the wreckage could have navigated to the exact location required to leave the island is, in and of itself, over-complicated.

We don't know WHY it's hard to leave the island. Is it only magnetic? That following a compas bearing (other than 325) will take you in circles? Maybe ocean currents don't have a problem leaving the island. Maybe if you navigate by the sun and stars you don't a have problem. The migratory birds didn't seem to have a problem that we could tell.

Your forgetting a main premise about Lost - it is very hard to leave the vicinity of the island. Wreckage that washed out to sea could not be found by anyone for the same reason Desmond could not sail away from the island. You have to navigate to a specific point to have any chance of leaving (at least that is what we were told when Walt and Michael left).
The idea that the wreckage could have navigated to the exact location required to leave the island is, in and of itself, over-complicated.


And you are forgetting another basic premis about Lost--hardly anything is what it seems. Desmond sailed away from the island, returns to the island apparently lost some days later. He says you can't leave the island, we're supposed to believe him because that's how this show works--we buy into what the characters say, and if we do, the surprises and twists work better. We are willing dupes in the con because it's more entertaining (for most of us) that way.

Occam's razor works best, though. Not to rain on any parades here, because the theorizing is one of the really fun parts of this...but sometimes we over-complicate things and find out later there was a simple explanation for it all. Just as TPTB have said all along.

The wreckage (including the charred remains of the midsection bodies that went up in the funeral pyre) is discovered out in the ocean, or washed up somewhere else? That would lead anyone to declare the plane went down and there were no surivivors.

How could anyone have survived a mid-ocean crash that apparently included a pre-crash cabin fire? would be the presumption, and there would be no need to investigate matters further.

They couldn't find the cockpit and forward cabin, and the flight box therein? No matter--it probably went to the bottom of the ocean. A very deep South Pacific ocean.

She-Whose-Name-Cannot-Be-Uttered says Fight 815 crashed? Sure! She saw the news reports that we all saw last week, she believes (as does most of the rest of the world) that the plane went down. Why is that surprising? It's human nature--believe what you see in the media.

Someone says they're the survivors of a flight the rest of the world buried months before? Those two realities clash and what was previously believed remains intact. (See my signature line.)

This ain't rocket science...it's simple literature. Set up the audience with misdirection, lay out the twists and turns, explain the characters and their motivations, and let the ball roll out.

This is an ok theory, as good as many, but the FAA simply wouldnt accept a claim as trite as that without follow up. The agency would demand access to the crash site as well as the recovered bodies and the like. Basically a hard core investigation would follow suit.

I agree. That Mittelos would create a faked crash scene seems like a highly probable scenario. The real problem is that Naom_ said "they were all dead," strongly implying that the bodies were found. So I guess we'll really have to wait for more details before knowing what the plausible explanation is. To quote charlie, "shocker."

(And no, that she's from the future, and "they're all dead" in the future from old age, is NOT a viable explanation, seeing that when a plane crashes they don't typically find the bodies three beaches down in graves with grave markers.)

And you are forgetting another basic premis about Lost--hardly anything is what it seems. Desmond sailed away from the island, returns to the island apparently lost some days later. He says you can't leave the island, we're supposed to believe him because that's how this show works--we buy into what the characters say, and if we do, the surprises and twists work better. We are willing dupes in the con because it's more entertaining (for most of us) that way.

Occam's razor works best, though. Not to rain on any parades here, because the theorizing is one of the really fun parts of this...but sometimes we over-complicate things and find out later there was a simple explanation for it all. Just as TPTB have said all along.

The wreckage (including the charred remains of the midsection bodies that went up in the funeral pyre would lead anyone to declare the plane went down and there were no surivivors.

How could anyone have survived a mid-ocean crash that apparently included a pre-crash cabin fire? would be the presumption, and there would be no need to investigate matters further.

They couldn't find the cockpit and forward cabin, and the flight box therein? No matter--it probably went to the bottom of the ocean. A very deep South Pacific ocean.

She-Whose-Name-Cannot-Be-Uttered says Fight 815 crashed? Sure! She saw the news reports that we all saw last week, she believes (as does most of the rest of the world) that the plane went down. Why is that surprising? It's human nature--believe what you see in the media.

Someone says they're the survivors of a flight the rest of the world buried months before? Those two realities clash and what was previously believed remains intact. (See my signature line.)

This ain't rocket science...it's simple literature. Set up the audience with misdirection, lay out the twists and turns, explain the characters and their motivations, and let the ball roll out.
In a previous episode (season 1 I think) the pilot actually indicated search and rescue teams were looking in the wrong place. That they were 1000 miles away from where search and rescue thought they were. I don't think that the wreckage could have traveled anywhere close to that distance.

Additionally, even if search and rescue ended up closer to the island, I fail to see how the giant mid-section of the plane would just float out. The storm drove it off the beach and it is sitting on the bottom somewhere.

I agree, there is no way the plane debris could float, but the water in the South Pacific is pretty clear and the may be spotted if not submerged too deep.

I agree. That Mittelos would create a faked crash scene seems like a highly probable scenario. The real problem is that Naom_ said "they were all dead," strongly implying that the bodies were found. So I guess we'll really have to wait for more details before knowing what the plausible explanation is. To quote charlie, "shocker."

(And no, that she's from the future, and "they're all dead" in the future from old age, is NOT a viable explanation, seeing that when a plane crashes they don't typically find the bodies three beaches down in graves with grave markers.)
I am not sure I follow you. If the plane crashes and some people survive the initial crash, they will live on the island for awhile (as our Losties are doing). Over time, they will die off and the survivors may bury them (again, as our Losties are doing). When the future finally finds the plane wreckage they will also find the graves, camp sites, etc.

Also, remember Mittelos is an anagram for Lost Time - a clue from the writers.

Hoe does all this fit into the context of what she said to Mikail? "I am not alone."

I'm reading all these posts today, and most of them are not factoring in that she is an other. She is a liar.

I agree, there is no way the plane debris could float, but the water in the South Pacific is pretty clear and the may be spotted if not submerged too deep.

The south pacific is also pretty deep. Plus any wreckage that was somehow spotted underwater would end up close to the island, bringing planes, ships and investigators. They would want to find bodies and all the pieces of the plane. If either were missing, they would keep looking until they were satisfied. Plane crashes are taken very seriously and investigators go to great lengths to recover all the wreckage to investigate properly.

I think cover up is the most likely option.

Hoe does all this fit into the context of what she said to Mikail? "I am not alone."

I'm reading all these posts today, and most of them are not factoring in that she is an other. She is a liar.
I don't think we can say she is an other yet. It would be one heck of a con to try an convince everyone that they are dead. Also, she had a picture of Desmond. I am not sure why, if she was working for the others, she would be carrying around a picture of Des and Pen. I think she is working for Pen and possibly from the future.

I am starting to believe she is a plant by the others ....

its too convenient that she speaks italian when she needs to communicate with Patchy and then spanish when she needs to communicate with Hurley and I think she spoke chinese but Jin is Korean so Im not sure about that part... but why would she change over to italian unless they knew that was the language none of them knew ?!

of course shes got a branch sticking out of her and perhaps she switches from language to language randomly as she gets closer to death ?! :shifty1: i think not

I am starting to believe she is a plant by the others ....

its too convenient that she speaks italian when she needs to communicate with Patchy and then spanish when she needs to communicate with Hurley and I think she spoke chinese but Jin is Korean so Im not sure about that part... but why would she change over to italian unless they knew that was the language none of them knew ?!

of course shes got a branch sticking out of her and perhaps she switches from language to language randomly as she gets closer to death ?! :shifty1: i think not
I am not sure I follow your logic... She speaks several languages, 2 of which the Losties don't speak (Chinese and Italian). That does not make her an other. I would expect that one might become delerious when hovering near death. She might be an other, but I think the evidence is stronger that she works for Penelope. Penelope knew Des was sailing around the world so it would make sense to send a multi-lingual person to find him.

That would mean that what we heard crashing in the ocean was not a helicopter, but a flying Delorean.

Great Scott!

:biggrin:

Very, very funny! I'm glad that not everyone participating in this forum takes things too seriously!

The south pacific is also pretty deep. Plus any wreckage that was somehow spotted underwater would end up close to the island, bringing planes, ships and investigators. They would want to find bodies and all the pieces of the plane. If either were missing, they would keep looking until they were satisfied. Plane crashes are taken very seriously and investigators go to great lengths to recover all the wreckage to investigate properly.

I think cover up is the most likely option.
Your right. The wreckage would probably stay relatively close to the island and we know it is hard for the average plane/boat to get close to the island.

Why do you think Mittelos Science has gone undetected by the medical community (I probably missed something)?

Maybe I had the wording wrong... but I remember Juliet (after seeing Alpert spike her juice with tranquilizer, and initially resisting) telling Alpert, "No one in the medical community has ever heard of Mittelos Science."

I am starting to believe she is a plant by the others ....

its too convenient that she speaks italian when she needs to communicate with Patchy and then spanish when she needs to communicate with Hurley and I think she spoke chinese but Jin is Korean so Im not sure about that part... but why would she change over to italian unless they knew that was the language none of them knew ?!

of course shes got a branch sticking out of her and perhaps she switches from language to language randomly as she gets closer to death ?! :shifty1: i think not

No I agree with you, I've been think about it and the fact that she spoke to Mikhail in a language nobody else could understand indicates to me that it was a special message for Mikhail only. I think it's possible that she was sent with the phone for Mikhail, or she's from some outside world group of Others and she's checking in since comms are down. And she's not the only survivor of her crash so she wanted Mikhail to know but not the Losties. Maybe the accident wasn't supposed to happen and the losties weren't supposed to find her, but being a good Other she's improvising and trying to work her way into the Losties camp, planting the idea that the rest of the world isn't looking for them.

That or this is all a reverse engineered plot that's part of the Week Ben has planned. I mean it's pretty convenient that Jin goes away camping, leaving Sun unattended so Juliet can sneak her off to the staff. Man there's just so many theories you can come up with given all the variables there are in Lost.

Could it be that she is working with both the others and Penny, Widmore is tied to the others maybe Penny takes what she knows to her Dad tells him that she is going to hire someone to go look for Des. He knows where he is and tells her, so they send a pilot to check on the others and look for Des.

Or maybe Penny hires this pilot to go looking for Des, she is a pilot for Widmore and actually knows of the islands location and agrees to take Penny there or she ran back to daddy and he says that the coms are down to check on the dharma/others and while your at it look for Des and/or kill him (because I seem to remember he doenst like Des much.)

just some possibilities that dont include time travel.

What is the connection between Widmore Industries and the Others Bears?

What is the connection between Widmore Industries and the Others Bears?

Well I guess its implied in the Lost experience, when I say others Im assuming that dharma is the others or that the people who financed dharma are the same ones supporting the others now. We've had many clues but maybe no direct evidence.

A couple of points:

The parachustist was speaking various languages while she was in shock and near death. Just because she happened to mention she was not alone when she was looking at Mikhail doesn't mean that she was only intending the words for him. He just happened to be the one in front of her at that time.

If the wreckage drifted out to sea, I don't think it would travel far enough that someone would find it and not see the island. I'm sure if they found wreckage, they would search in a pretty wide area.

I think another crash was staged and the hairbrushes used for DNA to confirm deaths. The bodies could have been burned so nobody would recognize them.

It could be that they did stage the crash, that they took the brushes before take off and 815 was supposed to land on the island, but since Des didnt push the button the plane crashed and the others had to improvise.

Well I guess its implied in the Lost experience, when I say others Im assuming that dharma is the others or that the people who financed dharma are the same ones supporting the others now. We've had many clues but maybe no direct evidence.

I see what you mean. I'm not ready to make the leap of faith that the Others and Widmore/Hanso Foundation are on the same team though. But I do think the Others are using what Dharma left behind, and that the Others are the hostiles Dharma types like Kelvin were fighting against. But you could very well be right!

of course shes got a branch sticking out of her and perhaps she switches from language to language randomly as she gets closer to death ?! :shifty1: i think not

Ever deal with someone in shock? That's not at all unlikely: they babble, mostly in their native language, but she may have been trying to communicate, with anybody nearby, that she desperately needs help.

Either way, I can't wait to find out!

You know, I'm thinking the "there were no survivors" is true. Well, its not, but the television said its true. I basically say, since the rescue crew couldn't even find the plane or the island, they made a cover-up story that no one survived, to cover their lack of skills in finding the plane. Besides, they assume its true as for such a long time they've been left, they'd be dead anyway. They assume.

I see what you mean. I'm not ready to make the leap of faith that the Others and Widmore/Hanso Foundation are on the same team though. But I do think the Others are using what Dharma left behind, and that the Others are the hostiles Dharma types like Kelvin were fighting against. But you could very well be right!

yeah the only reason I'm assuming that they still have some sort of arrangement is because the drops are still happening. (or were before the fail safe) But there could be any number of explanations for that.

yeah the only reason I'm assuming that they still have some sort of arrangement is because the drops are still happening. (or were before the fail safe) But there could be any number of explanations for that.

It could be that as long as the button kept getting pushed the food drops continued automatically, every 60 to 80 days according to the Blast Door Map. I'm very interested to see if there will be anymore food drops, or if they were happening because Mikhail was looking for more vodka and red wine and was requesting the drops.

Mikhail was looking for more vodka and red wine and was requesting the drops.

If I was on that island vodka would be a high priority.

Is it possible that the Others did stage the crash at a different location, but using the actual plane wreckage from Flight 815 that they gathered up after it washed out to sea? Could the submarine have been used to locate and salvage the wreckage?

they "others" have contact with the outside world,juliette saw her sister scene.

Could it be possible that the "others" manipulated the outside world in to thinking that there were no surviviors?
sorry if some one mentioed this..i havent been bothered to read the hole thread.

i thought TPTB were having namoi use sone pretty specific language there. of course i don't remember it exactly, but Sayid asked something like, "did they find pieces of wreckage or the whole plane?", and Naomi responded that they found the whole plane, and all of the bodies. she didn't say how she knew it, but she seemed pretty confident.

am i remembering this correctly?

i thought TPTB were having namoi use sone pretty specific language there. of course i don't remember it exactly, but Sayid asked something like, "did they find pieces of wreckage or the whole plane?", and Naomi responded that they found the whole plane, and all of the bodies. she didn't say how she knew it, but she seemed pretty confident.

am i remembering this correctly?
She did say how she knew it. Didn't she say they sent down robots with cameras and actually saw the bodies and plane and everything?