So, I'm just as confused as anybody about the fact that Flight 815 was supposedly found. I'm not sure exaclty what theory I'm buying into at this point, but whatever it is it will be a "real world" type scenario (ie. not an alternate dimension or purgatory).

The thing is, it seems more and more like someone, not fate, got all these people on this flight for some purpose, which indicates to me some sort of cover up.

It also really makes me come to the conclusion that Cindy was, in fact, part of the Others even before the crash, and that its likely that the Pilot was too. The pilot we saw very well may not have been the real pilot.

Now I know that these aren't new ideas. But I'm curious what people's thoughts are about them in light of what we learned last night.

Despite tptb stating otherwise, I think they must be just trying to throw people off, I think there must have been two planes.

The lostaways were booked onto flight 815. They were *sorted* at the gate. Our lostaways were herded onto a different plane, as all other passengers were put onto the real flight 815. Both planes took off, *our* plane crashed, landed, whatever on the island, and the real flight 815 crashed into the ocean, or wherever they found it. It was either a suicide mission for the pilot, or he bailed out or something. Maybe his body was salvaged and he was brought to the island to be resurrected. Who knows.

I think people are makign too big of a deal out of this...

I think Hanso or Widmore covered up the 815 crash so that Ben and the Others (mettelos) could have more test subjects.

I think the island had a war on itn (for lack of a better metaphor) and the end result was that everyone who was not worthy to procreate, would died during while preggers. Now why the father doesn't die either is beyond me, but it might have soemthing to do with creating a "perfect being" or a "Chosen one" who will be birthed on the island. Thats what Ben is trying to do, and why he won't let Juliett leave until she has exhausted her abilities to keep women from dying.

I don't think that Cindy was in on it, but like the rest of the Others (See Locke) once you are told what the Island is, you won't want to leave. Or you want to find out how to become a part of their soceity.

Everyone not a part of the Others are test subject basically...maybe the pilot was bringing Ben more subjects, maybe he just got lost after losing radio contact, either way...The recovered plane and bodies were a cover up. Show me another Jack in a morge water logged, and i will start beleiving this stuff about a paralle universe.

It also really makes me come to the conclusion that Cindy was, in fact, part of the Others even before the crash, and that its likely that the Pilot was too. The pilot we saw very well may not have been the real pilot.

So, by saying this are you arguing that the hatch and Desmond had nothing to do with crashing the plane?

I think people are makign too big of a deal out of this...

I think Hanso or Widmore covered up the 815 crash so that Ben and the Others (mettelos) could have more test subjects.

I think the island had a war on itn (for lack of a better metaphor) and the end result was that everyone who was not worthy to procreate, would died during while preggers. Now why the father doesn't die either is beyond me, but it might have soemthing to do with creating a "perfect being" or a "Chosen one" who will be birthed on the island. Thats what Ben is trying to do, and why he won't let Juliett leave until she has exhausted her abilities to keep women from dying....Show me another Jack in a morge water logged, and i will start beleiving this stuff about a paralle universe.

I'm not quite sure how most of what you wrote is related to my original post. I stated that I don't believe in a parallel universe theorey either. Why they were brought to the island really has no bearing on whether Cindy and the Pilot were in on it. Also not sure how a war could cause "unworthy" people to die...you're just kind of jumping all over the place and I don't think I get how you relate all this to my original question.

Despite tptb stating otherwise, I think they must be just trying to throw people off, I think there must have been two planes.

The lostaways were booked onto flight 815. They were *sorted* at the gate. Our lostaways were herded onto a different plane, as all other passengers were put onto the real flight 815. Both planes took off, *our* plane crashed, landed, whatever on the island, and the real flight 815 crashed into the ocean, or wherever they found it.

This really seems like the most plausible answer to me. I really like the sorting bit too. While it doesn't explain how they got all these people to book flight 815, it explains how so many of the people on that flight seem to be chosen, not just random.

So, by saying this are you arguing that the hatch and Desmond had nothing to do with crashing the plane?

I'm not explicitely saying that, but I guess I am open to that possibility. I guess its equally possible that whoever arranged for these people to be on the plane, or foresaw this plane of people (Jacob?) may have also had foreknowledge that on that particular day, Desmond would fail to push the button. I dunno, I think that it still leaves a lot of open possibilities.

Doesnt Hanso own Oceanic? I thought i read somewhere that they did own it.If that is the case it would be pretty easy to cover up.

This really seems like the most plausible answer to me. I really like the sorting bit too. While it doesn't explain how they got all these people to book flight 815, it explains how so many of the people on that flight seem to be chosen, not just random.



I'm not explicitely saying that, but I guess I am open to that possibility. I guess its equally possible that whoever arranged for these people to be on the plane, or foresaw this plane of people (Jacob?) may have also had foreknowledge that on that particular day, Desmond would fail to push the button. I dunno, I think that it still leaves a lot of open possibilities.

Just posted this on another thread, but the Others did not know who were on the plane. If, the passengers were sorted out and put on a different plane, the Others would know their names. If they were chosen, they were chosen for a specific reason and the Others would have knowledge of their lives. However, we saw Ben and Juliet go to the Flame right after the crash, watched the news stations covering the dissapearance and Ben told Mikhail to find out the passengers names and and any information that he could. If the passengers were chosen to be put on a different plane, there would already be a list of names and information about the passengers. We know that Ben had no info, therefore no "chosen" group of people herded onto a plane.

We know that Ben had no info, therefore no "chosen" group of people herded onto a plane.

How do we know this? Because he said so? By my count, he's yet to tell the truth about anything. Why would this be any different?

How do we know this? Because he said so? By my count, he's yet to tell the truth about anything. Why would this be any different?

Well Ben may be the leader of the Others but I think there are powers at play here that are higher up than him.

"I don't think that Cindy was in on it, but like the rest of the Others (See Locke) once you are told what the Island is, you won't want to leave."

I think cindy WAS in on it. I just got done reading Bad Twin and for some reason it gives me the impression she was in on it. Idk just the whole detective thing like everyone is working for Hanso.

Cindy is almost certainly an Other. There is really no doubt in my mind.

How do we know this? Because he said so? By my count, he's yet to tell the truth about anything. Why would this be any different?

Ben was as surprised by the crash as anybody else. If the Others had known that a plane was going to crash they would have been more prepared. Instead, Ben was yelling out orders to Ethan and Goodwin as the plane was breaking apart over them. I am convinced that if they had known ahead of time they would have already had a plan.

I think people are makign too big of a deal out of this...

I think Hanso or Widmore covered up the 815 crash so that Ben and the Others (mettelos) could have more test subjects.

.

I agree with you -- I think that is what happened... Jacob et al got a plane and crashed it in the ocean -- as a cover up --it isn't unreasonalbe seeing that if they can cure cancer, they can probably come up with a plane to crash and cover up the real crash

Motive you ask? simple - they don't want rescue planes snooping around...

the losties plane crashed, we saw it crash, the others saw it crash I don't see how this is in question.

Personally, I think it's a bit crazy to say the Pilot and Cindy were "in" on the crash of Flight 815. There really is no evidence to support that. If you are argue that they were, what exactly were they "in" on? Did they sabotage the plane? What would cause it to break up at the altitude it was at? Did they set off an explosion, and really think they would survive the crash? This just seems extremely far fetched to me.

And, just the fact that it completely negates the big reveal in last season's finale about Desmond crashing the plane, that makes it even more unlikely. Why would the show's creators go through the trouble of the entire Swan/hatch storyline if it didn't eventually lead to the plane crashing? It's as if the entire hatch storyline was for nothing.

The more logical choice is to say that Dharma created a fake crash site to throw off the authorities and not draw attention to the island, but no one seem to want to accept this answer.

Doesnt Hanso own Oceanic? I thought i read somewhere that they did own it.If that is the case it would be pretty easy to cover up.

The last person capable of covering up a downed aircraft would be the owner. authorities would be all over Hanso.

Unless Hanso owns the government and the hearts and minds of all of the victim's family members, brushing a downed airliner under the rug is simply not something that happens...

Last time I checked, the FAA had no authority in Australia, or anyplace else outside US airspace.

The more logical choice is to say that Dharma created a fake crash site to throw off the authorities and not draw attention to the island, but no one seem to want to accept this answer.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I agree with this.

i just think that whoever sent her (if this is not a ploy) told her "hey that flight 815 crashed blah blah blah" so now she lands there and boom she sees the survivors
but what doesn't make sense is this "they found the plane" b s
she has to be lying about who she is and she must be down with the others and her job is too comfort them now that they know no1 is looking for them

plus i am still ticked at the idea that mike and walt are off in the world knowing that ppl are saying there were no survivors and they are like "o yeah no survivors" when they know the truth...they didnt do a good job explaining walt and mike.

i dont know any more

How do we know this? Because he said so? By my count, he's yet to tell the truth about anything. Why would this be any different?

I can't think of anything Ben's lied about except "I'm Henry Gale" and "Juliet - you can go home in six months."

And I'm with those who are thinking that once 815 went down on the island, a fake crash site was created elsewhere to put an end to the search.

Last time I checked, the FAA had no authority in Australia, or anyplace else outside US airspace.

Good flame there. Got me on that. You are most correct. The FAA clearly doesnt apply. Ok...still...some organization or authority would have to investigate. To "fake" a downed airliner would bring a host of investigative bodies or agencies. identities of the deceased have to be verified, flight data has to be recovered and so forth...

So, by saying this are you arguing that the hatch and Desmond had nothing to do with crashing the plane?

It could add some weight to the theory that the plane was being brought to the Island (or somewhere near it) anyway and the button pressing incident was what caused it to crash - otherwise it would have landed.

It still doesn't explain why Ben was so keen to find out info (through Patchy) about the flight - unless it was all laid on for Juliet's benefit.

There's a lot here that seems contradictory but at last, things are starting to move. I'm willing to go along with the ride until the end of the season.

The two plane theory would explain why Christian's body was missing. An empty coffin was placed onthe plane Jack was in, while Christians' body was placed on the second plane and used as part of the floating wrecakge to be discovered by searchers.

Staging a crash site would be difficult ... not impossible, just difficult. :undecide:

The two plane theory would explain why Christian's body was missing. An empty coffin was placed onthe plane Jack was in, while Christians' body was placed on the second plane and used as part of the floating wrecakge to be discovered by searchers.

Staging a crash site would be difficult ... not impossible, just difficult. :undecide:

Just look at the pentagon on 9/11. I sometimes wonder if it isnt a coincidence that the crash was on Sept 22.. if you consider the conspiracy theories that remote control drone flights were crashed into the pentagon and in virginia, there is that creepy question-- what happened to the original passengers on those flights.. what to do with those people? maybe that's one possibility of why a fake crash happened.. and the island is a multipurpose place, to get rid of those passengers humanely, hidden away from the rest of the world, and also the site of sociological experimentation.. the aftermath of a faked terrorist attack

Guys you know who is behind all this? LINDERMAN.

Guys you know who is behind all this? LINDERMAN.

:confused: who ? :confused:

i think the best explanation is that there is a more spiritual solution ... jacob or the numbers or fate or some other supernatural force brought them to the sland . ... i dont think humans selected ppl and planned the crash ... perhaps fate brought them there, like everything fell into place ... seems like the most believable ... i dont think ben was expecting the plane ... in the past, the most believable and simplist answer is usually the right one ... the more u look into it the further you get from the truth

Guys you know who is behind all this? LINDERMAN.


I used that one on my friends weeks ago.

It's from the show Heroes.

Just posted this on another thread, but the Others did not know who were on the plane. If, the passengers were sorted out and put on a different plane, the Others would know their names. If they were chosen, they were chosen for a specific reason and the Others would have knowledge of their lives. However, we saw Ben and Juliet go to the Flame right after the crash, watched the news stations covering the dissapearance and Ben told Mikhail to find out the passengers names and and any information that he could. If the passengers were chosen to be put on a different plane, there would already be a list of names and information about the passengers. We know that Ben had no info, therefore no "chosen" group of people herded onto a plane.

Thank you!!

Good flame there. Got me on that. You are most correct. The FAA clearly doesnt apply. Ok...still...some organization or authority would have to investigate. To "fake" a downed airliner would bring a host of investigative bodies or agencies. identities of the deceased have to be verified, flight data has to be recovered and so forth...

Agreed. Unless the alternative flight 815 crashed in the ocean (my coworker's idea, and it makes sense). It's easier to fake a crash site in the ocean - they'd give up the search for survivors after they found floating wreckage and no bodies. All we'd need would be one fisherman or coast guard boat or cruise ship to call it in, and say, "Hey folks, there's a plane piece here," and if it was close enough to where they thought the plane went down, and there was some small identifying piece, they'd accept that there were no bodies, and the general public would hear on the news that everyone died. My coworker believes that the Others actually took the original plane pieces from the beach and plopped those out in the ocean, and used their tugboat to call it in... not sure if I'd go that far, but it's an interesting thought.

Just look at the pentagon on 9/11. I sometimes wonder if it isnt a coincidence that the crash was on Sept 22.. if you consider the conspiracy theories that remote control drone flights were crashed into the pentagon and in virginia, there is that creepy question-- what happened to the original passengers on those flights.. what to do with those people? maybe that's one possibility of why a fake crash happened.. and the island is a multipurpose place, to get rid of those passengers humanely, hidden away from the rest of the world, and also the site of sociological experimentation.. the aftermath of a faked terrorist attack

That's the most frightening theory I've ever heard... talk about your disturbing conspiracies. :eek2:

The last person capable of covering up a downed aircraft would be the owner. authorities would be all over Hanso.

Unless Hanso owns the government and the hearts and minds of all of the victim's family members, brushing a downed airliner under the rug is simply not something that happens...


Well this is a tv show not real life---do u believe "Smokie" is real?

well if all reality is to be suspended then by all means the plane was split in half intentionally and specific people aboard were genetically created decades ago to live through it and nobody asked or cared about their dying loved ones.

Hey Guys,
I just had a thought about what could have happened. I know that some people will think this is a stupid idea, but just give a chance. With the news we have learned in this ep D.O.C., about the crash being found without any survivors, maybe the Losties are in an artificial world created by Dharma Initiative??? Maybe the Dharma Initiative wanted to create an artificial world utopia, rather than an utopia society??? When Juliet talks to Ben in One of Us about none of his people being sick, she replied to him, "That's Here". Giving the impression that they are in a different place from the real world where her she is. Back in season 2 Ben made a statement about God not being about to see the island/place where they are. Maybe the Dharma forks created an artificial world that they have/had access to. Where they could have free reign to do whatever types of experiments they wanted. Where there is no sickness/cancer, but there are healing powers, special animals, etc. due to the created anomalies of this world. Seeing that the world is artificial in nature, this could be the problem with conceiving/delivering babies on the island. This could explain why they needed the sub to gain entry/exit from the island. Also I have thought the incident that took place on the island is what cause the entry/exit of the island to change. After the incident took place maybe Dharma needed to install the button in the Swan station to prevent the malfunction which results in more people crashing on the island. Seeing that Dharma could have been involved with big governments and big business, maybe they know about the malfunction on the island that causes crashes there. Which would result in a government/big business cover-up of the crash and the true cause of it. I don't think that Hanso or any others involved would want the real world to know about the island. Please be gentle, I know that there are holes in this theory. It's just a thought :rolleyes:.

This could explain why they needed the sub to gain entry/exit from the island.

Then how do you explaine Mike and Walt leaving in the speed boat

Then how do you explaine Mike and Walt leaving in the speed boat

I personally don't believe that Michael/Walt made it off the island in that boat. IMOP it can't be that simple to leave the island, or else Juliet/Others would have just taken the boat and left the island. Also let's say Michael/Walt could leave the island in that speedboat, once the Swan hatch imploded the parameters of exit/entry changed (IMOP :rolleyes:). What do you think happened with Michael/Walt?:rolleyes:

I personally don't believe that Michael/Walt made it off the island in that boat. IMOP it can't be that simple to leave the island, or else Juliet/Others would have just taken the boat and left the island. Also let's say Michael/Walt could leave the island in that speedboat, once the Swan hatch imploded the parameters of exit/entry changed (IMOP :rolleyes:). What do you think happened with Michael/Walt?:rolleyes:

I dont think they are gone I think that the Others have them and that they never made it to the real world because how would he explaine how he got the boat, how hes supposed to be dead, Where is everone else. Ben told him he cant talk because of what hes done right Walt doesnt know that he killed two people to get off and so he will have to explaine that they cant tell anyone where they where and what happend to them. Nope I think the others have them and they are now testing Walt again and making Mike watch the brainwash video that says God loves you as he loved Jacob. I think that once your there your there for good, unless you get a sub ride oh wait Locke blew it up :ohwell:

A question that hasn't been asked if the Others planned the crash and planted the pilot and cindy, is how can they make the plan land in such a way that people survive. Typically plane crashes are not survivable so it seems like a huge risk to crash all these people that they are trying to get on the island.

I think that Walt and Micheal will show up eventually. I most definitely don't think that they made it back. WHAT WOULD THEY SAY!?!?!??!! I mean REALLY?!?!?!

I do think they are either still on the island or out in the middle of nowhere still undetected. My bet is they are on the island.

Just posted this on another thread, but the Others did not know who were on the plane. If, the passengers were sorted out and put on a different plane, the Others would know their names. If they were chosen, they were chosen for a specific reason and the Others would have knowledge of their lives.

The Others may have known who was on the plane. They have pretty complete folders on everybody and there is no evidence that Ethan or Goodwin ever returned to Othersville with the lists of survivors they were sent to compile. What the Others didn't know was who was who and who survived the crash.

My thought is that the passengers were selected to be on the flight, that it was supposed to land somewhere near the island and the passengers brought to it by sub like Juliet was. After all, the plane was 1000 miles off course according to the pilot and that had nothing to do with Desmond's failing to enter the numbers into the computer on time.

When Desmond caused the glitch that made the plane crash, the Others were forced to improvise.

The Others may have known who was on the plane. They have pretty complete folders on everybody and there is no evidence that Ethan or Goodwin ever returned to Othersville with the lists of survivors they were sent to compile. What the Others didn't know was who was who and who survived the crash.

My thought is that the passengers were selected to be on the flight, that it was supposed to land somewhere near the island and the passengers brought to it by sub like Juliet was. After all, the plane was 1000 miles off course according to the pilot and that had nothing to do with Desmond's failing to enter the numbers into the computer on time.

When Desmond caused the glitch that made the plane crash, the Others were forced to improvise.

Just because they never made it back to Otherville doesnt mean a thing, how else would they have gotton Gioodwins list that Anna took off the Chick that she killed. Ethan could have given it to anyone at anytime because he went hunting with Locke

Ethan did returned kinda sort of to the Medical Hatch with Claire and Tom got mad at him for doing so and not making his list and he said what am I supossed to tell Him

Ben siad to Anna that Goodwin wanted to put Anna on the List because he thought of her as good and that she could change