What Jack and Juliet know ? What's their secret? [Archive] - { Flicks N Shows | Fringe Division

bigwillyca

05-02-2007, 11:07 PM

care_n_jim

05-03-2007, 12:03 AM

OR Kate is pg and that they are coming for her again!

Save The Humans

05-03-2007, 12:07 AM

silveranswer

05-03-2007, 12:13 AM

got to be #1- that the coms haven't worked since Locke exploded the hatch.
. . .I bet the old signal Roussau made isn't working either since Sayid didn't pick up anything

LostLaura

05-03-2007, 12:18 AM

I think that what they "know" is simply that they are not telling her that their main goal is to get off the island together and try to rescue the rest of the Losties, or just rescue themselves. They are concerned with leaving, only.

lostgurl

05-03-2007, 12:28 AM

RodimusBen

05-03-2007, 12:29 AM

NightMystic

05-03-2007, 12:29 AM

why would juliet lie to ben and say that the baby was conceived on the island. that doesn't make sense. she might as well have added i hate you on the tape if she was gonna lie.

The jack and juliet thing is god who knows what. personally i think its something to do with penelope.

rayhimself

05-03-2007, 12:54 AM

What was Juliet about to tell Kate? I got a feeling that it was bigger than the "impending invasion". And Jack has turned into a cold blooded shidoobie-cicle.

nancy

05-03-2007, 01:13 AM

Fierro

05-03-2007, 01:17 AM

Selene1212

05-03-2007, 01:18 AM

I think Jack & Juliet were expecting the parachutist.

rabidranger

05-03-2007, 01:19 AM

That they are working together to undermine Ben even though Juliet is pretending to work with Ben. The statement came right after Kate saying that Jack's friends didn't trust him any more. The implication was that if Kate knew the truth, she'd understand why Jack has been acting as he has.

I think you're right. The fact Ben volunteered to Locke the "fact" Juliet's a mole, knowing full well that info would get back to the Losties' camp seems to support the idea that he has an inkling Juliet isn't loyal. As a result, he's trying to orchestrate a "remote" eradication. Not to mention the fact Juliet said she hated Ben on the recording.

Saukkomies

05-03-2007, 01:26 AM

John Burger

05-03-2007, 01:26 AM

That they are working together to undermine Ben even though Juliet is pretending to work with Ben. The statement came right after Kate saying that Jack's friends didn't trust him any more. The implication was that if Kate knew the truth, she'd understand why Jack has been acting as he has.

This cant be a prior plan though

It makes no sense in relation to the pivotal scene where Juilet is portrayed as a monster when see is looking at Jack at the end of "One of Us'(when she ties the knot)

I think Juliet will side with the Losties..but for the the story to be consistent with that scene, Juliet will have to change her mind because there really is no other way to reconcile that scene with a prior plan with Jack.

So if its true..Juliet would have to have told Jack while on the beach. I think that is what will be shown next week.

briar910

05-03-2007, 01:26 AM

I guess probably #1, but it still doesn't seem big enough. The secret has got to be something big IMO. It drove me nuts when they didn't reveal what it is. I wonder if we'll even find out next week or they are gonna drag it out until the season finale.

C_Lost

05-03-2007, 01:29 AM

My cent and a half.

I think Juliet has told Jack what the Other's plans are. J&J are planning a "counter attack" of sorts. This is thier secret. Jack doesn't want the plan out yet. He thinks he can deploy this plan at the right time (ie when Sawyer brings the tape recorder back to the beach) and save the day. He truely has the Losties best interest at heart. However, I think Ben knows that Juliet would betray him (he did make it obvious to Locke were he put the tape recorder knowing it would get back to the beach) and has an alternant plan in place that Juliet knows nothing about. This will cause J&J's "counter attack" plan to fail. Thus outing J&J even more.

or it could be they know Kate is preggers.

rabidranger

05-03-2007, 01:34 AM

C_Lost

05-03-2007, 01:43 AM

My first inclination is to think that Jack and Juliet know that Kate is pregnant (which could very well be true), but that doesn't mesh with the context of the scene with Kate (where she reveals the presence of Naomi). While they might not know all the particulars, I think it's possible that Jack and Juliet are expecting an agent of DHARMA to land on the Island, of which Naomi could fit the bill. That could be the "secret" they are hiding. As a matter-of-fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Naomi is exposed by season's end, and is killed by a Lostie (Jack or someone else).

This could very well be it. It did seem that Patchy showed up really fast after the flare fired, as if he were expecting somone. JJ did look at each other in confirmation when Kate spilled the beans. But there has to be more to the story that they didn't want Kate to know yet.

jasoncountdown

05-03-2007, 02:03 AM

GodBlessTexas

05-03-2007, 02:03 AM

I don't CARE what Jack has to say to the losties next week. No matter how "noble" or "wonderful" his reasons for being an a**h**e are.

I don't LIKE Jack. I don't LIKE Juliet. I don't LIKE Locke. I don't LIKE Ben. I don't LIKE N.aomi.

And after tonight, I can say with full assurance,

THESE PEOPLE DISGUST ME!! :mad:

And what they're doing to people, how they treat people, how they act--

I'm gonna finish watching this season. Gotta. Too much invested.

I'll spend time with all you folks for the next eight months.

The way I feel right now, though, I'm not sure I'll come back in January. I hope I'll cool off. But I really don't think I can take much more of this.

What were you expecting, exactly? If you don't like the show, I'd advise not watching it anymore, as it sounds like it's having an effect on you that is unhealthy. I've been disappointed with the beginning of this season, but these last 10 episodes have been pretty good storytelling. I'm not exactly sure what you're problem is with the characters, and I'd highly advise that you hold your judgment until the end of the season, as a lot of the stuff that is unclear should have a better explanation.

Pulpy Austinite

05-03-2007, 02:06 AM

is the show really not coming back til January?

jasoncountdown

05-03-2007, 02:08 AM

All signs point towards Lost going 24 on us. So yes, it won't be back to January. No repeats or break at least.

What Would Jeff Do

05-03-2007, 02:08 AM

The fact that Jules wants to tell her and Jack doesnt has me worried.I'd think that normally, Jack would want to tell Kate and Jules wouldn't.

MegletTX

05-03-2007, 02:09 AM

Awwww STH NOT YOU!!!! :( While I wasn't overly as impressed with this eppy as the last few I don't think it's time to quit yet!! I think we're just fixing to get to the good stuff in the season finale. :happy_bounce: HEAVENS it is NOT gone as far as 24 yet!!! Now THAT has been a disappointment these last few eppys but Lost has been FABULOUS since the break.

ForgivenTheWarlord

05-03-2007, 02:12 AM

I think the statement came right after kate said the woman had a radio to contact the outside world. I have a feeling that they both know why it is really not possible to transmit a signal out of the island.

I agree completely. The timing of when Juliet said that she wanted to tell Kate seems to indicate that it has to do with N-aomi's radio.

Pulpy Austinite

05-03-2007, 02:13 AM

you didnt read the prior post correctly, h-town person. ..they just meant LOST will be shown back to back like 24.

..is there any hope of it going 24 style (consecutive eps) earlier?? puh-lease?

animatormike

05-03-2007, 02:14 AM

What was Juliet about to tell Kate? I got a feeling that it was bigger than the "impending invasion". And Jack has turned into a cold blooded shidoobie-cicle.

Actually, if you look at the screen caps, Kate had toilet paper stuck to her shoe.;)

indeedy

05-03-2007, 02:22 AM

I don't CARE what Jack has to say to the losties next week. No matter how "noble" or "wonderful" his reasons for being an a**h**e are.

I don't LIKE Jack. I don't LIKE Juliet. I don't LIKE Locke. I don't LIKE Ben. I don't LIKE N.aomi.

And after tonight, I can say with full assurance,

THESE PEOPLE DISGUST ME!! :mad:

And what they're doing to people, how they treat people, how they act--

I'm gonna finish watching this season. Gotta. Too much invested.

I'll spend time with all you folks for the next eight months.

The way I feel right now, though, I'm not sure I'll come back in January. I hope I'll cool off. But I really don't think I can take much more of this.

I know a lot of people have commented on this, and I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I am seriously wondering what you expected STH? I haven't seen the most recent eps being down in Australia, but from what I've heard the behaviour of the characters is EXACTLY what I would have expected of them from the way they have been portrayed ever since season 1... those characters that aren't really that bad still aren't really that bad (Sayid, Claire, Charlie, Jin/Sun, Hurley etc.) and the characters that were always seriously flawed are still seriously flawed, and the others are, well, evil, no surprise there. The actions of Kate, Sawyer and even to a certain extent Jack have always disgusted me (though I do think it's possible that Jack and Juliet will be redeemed somehow, but either way will be interesting), but that doesn't stop them from being interesting. If you want a show where you like all the characters, this was never it.

TheLostProject

05-03-2007, 02:23 AM

what the hell does "shidoobie-cicle" mean? really. i need some clarification.

on a different note, sawyer has turned into a complete whackadillyscoodlydoodly...

Pythagoras99

05-03-2007, 02:23 AM

I think Juliet and Jack are working together to fight against the others. Juliet told Jack about the plan which is why he is keeping the other survivors from questioning her. He is telling everyone that "She will explain everything when she is ready". I think he knows everything and they are planning against the others coming to get the pregnant women.

That all being said, now the helicopter survivor lands, that changes the game plan for everything. Juliet wanted to bring Kate in on the plan.

Hmm, it's possible. Personally I think he's made a deal to get everyone off the island after he helps to let the Others study the pregnancies of the 815ers. My prediction for his speech, "Look folks, I couldn't tell you about this before, but the others are going to be taking your babies and disecting you, but it's really all for the best, trust me. Oh, and also I'm a complete dufus." I guess we'll see.

***making mental note never to trust Kate with a secret.***

Pythagoras99

05-03-2007, 02:37 AM

I think the statement came right after kate said the woman had a radio to contact the outside world. I have a feeling that they both know why it is really not possible to transmit a signal out of the island.

But it obviously is possible, because their satellite dish used to do it all the time. (And they gave the indication that they had no idea why it stopped working "after the sky turned purple".)

So to me, the fact that he doesn't even care that they have a potential way to contact a ship 80 nautical miles away, leads me to the theory that he has made another deal with Ben to get everyone off the island if he helps Juliet do a little research first.

Save The Humans

05-03-2007, 02:38 AM

Hey, STH, but what about Hurley, Charlie, Claire, Aaron, and Desmond? Just because the BIGSHOTs are all being dorkwads, don't bail out on the real Beach Crew!
Oh, I don't. I want the characters you listed, plus Rose & Bernard, Alex & Karl, and Jin (no use mentioning Sun; she's already doomed), taken to a safe spot. Then Danielle can set off her dynamite and blow everyone else to bits!

This is my immediate reaction to tonight's eppy. If I didn't care about the show, I wouldn't have such severe emotional reactions.

But, OK, folks. I didn't mean to upset YOU, so I'll try to limit my time on this episode thread. See ya around the other boards!

gano

05-03-2007, 02:54 AM

Claudia815

05-03-2007, 02:58 AM

I think it would be interesting if we were lead to believe Juliet was the mole, when she's actually working with Jack and a renegade faction of Others to overthrow Ben, and the real mole is the parachutist who Desmond and friends are hailing as their only hope for rescue.

I'd love it. It makes a lot more sense than: Oh, no, Juliet's a mole. Oh, dear. OK. So?

It's possible that Ben's contacts on the outside were fully aware of Penny's search for Dessy, and used Penny to send N.aomi in to check things out after the communications went down. If that makes sense.

Penny's daddy is Mr. Widmore and Widmore Industries and the whole clan has some rather strong pecuniary connections with The Hanso Foundation and co.

As I've said elsewhere...

I think Ben's purpose with Juliet is all inclusive:

1. Punish her for trying to get Jack to kill him by sending her on a kamikaze mission and outing her as a traitor to the losties (with the added benefit of not having to lose face with the rest of the sect for not keeping his word to Jack). Also get a bit of revenge on Jack for outwitting him with the surgery.

2. Collect data about fertility

3. Counter a very likely betrayal on Juliet's part (he already knows she hates him, IMO)

4....and most important of all, divide the losties and make them distrust Jack so that they'd die alone rather than live together.

I think this whole let's undermine Jack thing has been way too easy. Number 4 there makes a lot more sense to me. Anything else is... well... OK. Jack is sad that Juliet betrayed him. The losties ostracize Jack and Juliet. Um... OK. So?

For a couple of people who were both desperate to get off the island, Jack and Juliet sure didn't seem phased at the news that there's a ship just 80 miles off the island. They either know about Naomi already or they know this isn't a ship they'd actually want to board.

Deadshot

05-03-2007, 03:43 AM

I'm thinking/hoping it's some kind of plan of attack.

which going by some forthcoming episode descriptions it just may be.

DoggoneLost

05-03-2007, 05:19 AM

But it obviously is possible, because their satellite dish used to do it all the time. (And they gave the indication that they had no idea why it stopped working "after the sky turned purple".)

So to me, the fact that he doesn't even care that they have a potential way to contact a ship 80 nautical miles away, leads me to the theory that he has made another deal with Ben to get everyone off the island if he helps Juliet do a little research first.

I'm having ambivalent feelings about this because Jack's assuming that the women will be willing subjects and not object to being test subject without consent. I would be very angry to find out if I were a pawn in a chess game. It's their lives we're speaking of here....so is he a man of science or a man of faith here? So then, was this a catch-22 for him as well?:confused:

gano

05-03-2007, 05:26 AM

I'd love it. It makes a lot more sense than: Oh, no, Juliet's a mole. Oh, dear. OK. So?

Penny's daddy is Mr. Widmore and Widmore Industries and the whole clan has some rather strong pecuniary connections with The Hanso Foundation and co.

As I've said elsewhere...

I think Ben's purpose with Juliet is all inclusive:

1. Punish her for trying to get Jack to kill him by sending her on a kamikaze mission and outing her as a traitor to the losties (with the added benefit of not having to lose face with the rest of the sect for not keeping his word to Jack). Also get a bit of revenge on Jack for outwitting him with the surgery.

2. Collect data about fertility

3. Counter a very likely betrayal on Juliet's part (he already knows she hates him, IMO)

4....and most important of all, divide the losties and make them distrust Jack so that they'd die alone rather than live together.

I think this whole let's undermine Jack thing has been way too easy. Number 4 there makes a lot more sense to me. Anything else is... well... OK. Jack is sad that Juliet betrayed him. The losties ostracize Jack and Juliet. Um... OK. So?

For a couple of people who were both desperate to get off the island, Jack and Juliet sure didn't seem phased at the news that there's a ship just 80 miles off the island. They either know about Naomi already or they know this isn't a ship they'd actually want to board.

Exactly! Jack's been duped by Juliet = boring story. Jack's pretending to be duped by Juliet so that they can dupe Ben who may be duping Team Losties into turning on each other (I'm telling you, Ben's a big fan of The Art of War) not realizing that Team Others is secretly pretty divided as well..now that's more like it. It's like a high stakes game of poker, and the winner will be the one with the best poker face. The turning point of the story may very well be the outing of Juliet by Locke via Sawyer, and the rest of the season could then show us the consequences of Jack being forced to play his hand too soon and whether Ben succeeds in his divide and conquer plans for the Losties, and how unpredictable lone guns with their own agendas like Locke and Danielle might muddy up the works.

Deadshot

05-03-2007, 05:57 AM

This cant be a prior plan though

It makes no sense in relation to the pivotal scene where Juilet is portrayed as a monster when see is looking at Jack at the end of "One of Us'(when she ties the knot)

Could this not just be a device to throw us the audience for a loop though?

"Oh look she is a mole and she's evil!"

Lost has a habit of showing us one thing then showing us the same thing from a different viewpoint a lot right?

freckles_tr

05-03-2007, 06:13 AM

I think we should tell her that....

- The Others are gonna be back in a few days for a final show down !! ( said a week )
- Kate honey you r pregnant and gonna die also.
- Jack over here , is madly in love with you but chickens out to say so.
- There is a ferryboat waiting for only 4 people at the other side of the island.
- lol

WestsideP-Stone

05-03-2007, 06:18 AM

nofaith

05-03-2007, 10:01 AM

I think you're right. The fact Ben volunteered to Locke the "fact" Juliet's a mole, knowing full well that info would get back to the Losties' camp seems to support the idea that he has an inkling Juliet isn't loyal. As a result, he's trying to orchestrate a "remote" eradication. Not to mention the fact Juliet said she hated Ben on the recording.

We do not know that Ben gave up this information. We DO know that Locke took the tape recorder with Juliet talking about Sun's baby on it. There is no indication yet that Ben gave this recorder to Locke or that he intended Locke to 'find' it.

Juliet visibly turned off the tape recorder before saying that she hates Ben. The video shows the tape stop spinning up close.

tripp_welch

05-03-2007, 10:07 AM

Juliet and Jack both know that there will be NO rescue. They know that flight 815 was found and all on it were reported dead. Jack doesn't want to tell the other losties yet, because he thinks they will lose hope. They probably think that Naomi is another one of Ben's tricks.

What Jack and Juliet don't know, is that the rescue is not for our 815 friends... it's for Mr. Hume. That changes everything

Not A Good Person

05-03-2007, 10:07 AM

I think you're right. The fact Ben volunteered to Locke the "fact" Juliet's a mole, knowing full well that info would get back to the Losties' camp seems to support the idea that he has an inkling Juliet isn't loyal. As a result, he's trying to orchestrate a "remote" eradication. Not to mention the fact Juliet said she hated Ben on the recording.

I think she turned the recorder off and THEN said "I hate you." It wasn't on the recording.

Locke thinks she's a mole because Ben basically told her she was. He's passing word on because he doesn't want the 815ers to be blindsided.

fire24fly

05-03-2007, 10:17 AM

Perhaps Juliet and Jack both believe they are in a hell or purgatory of sorts, as did Locke's father. If this is the case, trying to get rescued is futile. This would fit based on the "we should tell her" discussion coming right after Kate's reveal of the "radio/phone thing". The Catch-22 could be that you need to "die" to find the island, but once you find it, there's no escaping. Additionally, when Juliet took the "tranquilizer", could this have actually been a poison to kill her and allowing her to "find" the island? We never actually see her journey. She falls asleep and then wakes up in the sub. A dupe perhaps to make her believe she travelled physically to get there? As of yet, we have never seen anybody leave the island. Forget the implied travels on and off the island. We have never seen it, and cannot trust any attempt by the producers to make us believe people come and go until we actually see it.

Kate731

05-03-2007, 10:33 AM

We do not know that Ben gave up this information. We DO know that Locke took the tape recorder with Juliet talking about Sun's baby on it. There is no indication yet that Ben gave this recorder to Locke or that he intended Locke to 'find' it.

Well, he sort of did. When Locke walked into his tent, Ben told him that Juliet had been collecting information for him at Locke's "old camp." Then he put the recorder in a drawer in front of Locke. I have the feeling that when things like this happen, Ben wanted them to. He didn't seem to care if this information got around.

As for what Juliet wanted to tell Kate, my theory is that Ben promised her she would get off the island on Naomi's boat and told Jack (what she may have promised him could be true or false, we still don't really know whose side she will end up on), so the two of them were expecting her. This could be a reason why Jack was so upset that no one told him.

teksmith

05-03-2007, 10:37 AM

Eight

05-03-2007, 10:38 AM

I thought about this too. At first I thought it might be about the sub being the only way off the island. But Kate knows the sub was blown up (even though it wasn't).

Then I thought it might be about the EM bubble that the isalnd exists in -- rather the slip in the space/time continuum. That is pretty heady stuff but i don't think it needs to be kept a secret -- therefore when the discussion progressed it could have been revealed. So I don't think that's it either.

So I have softly concluded that Jack and Juliett are in cahoots and that Juliett is playing Ben like a violin as some have already suggested.

Nevermore

05-03-2007, 10:41 AM

Juliet's words to Jack right after Kate told them about Naomi.

It sounds as if Juliet and Jack knew something the other Losties didn't, maybe they were expecting someone to show up?

kokobware

05-03-2007, 10:47 AM

I think Juliette mat have been upfront with Jack about still working for Ben. That's why Jack has been acting strange, he has a plan, but he still needs to keep the other 815ers in the dark for a little while longer.

louderld23

05-03-2007, 10:50 AM

This one I can see coming:

Juliette and Jack have a plan to overtake Ben and find a way off the island, however what Jack does not know is that Juliette is tricking him yet again. She is making Jack believe that she is on his side, when she is truly still on board with Ben in efforts to get herself off the island the easiest way she sees fit. The reason she said in the brig, "we should tell her..." is simple. She wants to let all the Losties know that they have a plan to overtake Ben and to get off the island... this is the initial step in setting up Jack to take a major fall and to lose all credibility with the Losties. Once Juliette and Jack reveal their plans to the Losties, along will come Sawyer with the tape recorder (which Ben wanted to happen along, thus allowing Locke to see it when he walks into the tent) and it will instantly make Jack and Juliette look like their true plan was to hurt the Losties all along, thus Jack will have lost all trust with the Losties... therefore Ben has the upper hand once again... I hate him too!

Tundra_Ice_Cold6477

05-03-2007, 10:55 AM

Juliet and Jack know that Locke did not sink the sub.

But I can't figure out why Locke is falling for the "tape recorder in plain sight" con? (Ben wanted him to steal it and give it to someone on the beach to out Juliet)

jscimeca715

05-03-2007, 10:57 AM

I thought that they were referring to the submarine blowing up and there being no apparent way to get off of the island anymore. In the context of that conversation, in which Kate was telling Jack about the phone and Naomi, I felt that Juliet and Jack were hiding the fact that the sub had been blown up and there was no getting off of the island. Of course, we don't know the depths of Juliets treachery and what Ben has promised her, so we definitely know she's playing them and it could be something totally different.

Hey_Freak

05-03-2007, 10:59 AM

I think the reveal is going to be that Jack and Juliet are working together against Ben. My first thought was that it would be the very very stupid plot idea of having Kate's 'sample' revealing she is pregnant. Then I realised, wait a minute haven't Lost already done that? So yeah I think and I hope that Juliet and Jack are working together.

Once Juliette and Jack reveal their plans to the Losties, along will come Sawyer with the tape recorder (which Ben wanted to happen along, thus allowing Locke to see it when he walks into the tent) and it will instantly make Jack and Juliette look like their true plan was to hurt the Losties all along, thus Jack will have lost all trust with the Losties...

Hmm interesting but I see it playing out as Sawyer coming back with the recorder, playing it to the group to reveal Juliet as the mole. Everyone freaks out at Jack and Julkiet and THEN, Jack tells them he and Juliet have been in on it the whole time and then tell them

they have a plan to do away with the Others for good, the plan we'll apparently see developed in Greatest Hits according to ABC's episode summary

popstalindesign

05-03-2007, 11:01 AM

Kate already knows there is no way off the Island, Jack told her, and no way to communicate with the outside world, Mikhail told her.

I think it's a bigger plan that Juliette wanted to convey to her and it's obvious why Jack is keeping her in the dark... he doesn't want the other Losties to know what's up yet.

Admiral Erik Pressman

05-03-2007, 11:05 AM

Yeah, IMO Ben still have the upper hand, if Jack and Juliet have a scheme, whatever it is I doubt that Ben doesn't know about it, and hasn't taken it into consideration.

As far as their secret goes, it could just be that Juliet is a mole. But, when watching the scene it seemed to me that whatever their secret was it pertains directly to Kate's comment about Naomi and the phone. Were they expecting Naomi?? Do they know why the sat phone wasn't getting a signal??

favorite other

05-03-2007, 11:07 AM

Juliette and Jack are definately working together, but what they don't know is that Ben knows they are working together. Ben is manipulating this whole thing. He knew that Locke would get Sawyer to kill his dad and give him the tape recorder. That is why Ben told Locke about Juliette, so that word would get back to the beach camp that Juliette is a mole. Ben is anticipating that Jack will stand by Juliette and the other Losties will not trust them therefore causing the beach camp to fracture. This will make it easier for the Other's to take control of the women or whatever it is that they want.
What Juliette wanted Jack to tell Kate is that they have a plan to oust the others.

Saukkomies

05-03-2007, 11:10 AM

...that Kate has been written out of the script for Season Four! LOL! :cool:

louderld23

05-03-2007, 11:15 AM

GreatHeights

05-03-2007, 11:16 AM

I think Juliette wanted to tell Kate that she is pregnant.

This would make sense. Kate had just told Jules and Jack that no one trusted them. Juliette wanted to tell Kate as a means of securing HER trust in them, which might be transferred to the other Losties since they trust Kate. This tactic worked to a point with Sun, and I think Juliette was trying to work it again. I think Jack knows that Kate is goign to have Sawyer's baby, and that is why he has been acting cold toward her.

Laurieg

05-03-2007, 12:12 PM

(4.8.15.16.23.42)

05-03-2007, 12:16 PM

Kate probably won't have to put up with it much longer...I think they will tell her their "secret" very soon...Maybe even next week?

chelle68

05-03-2007, 12:17 PM

Jack needs a hard SLAP.... and Kate needs to assert herself and stop believing that just because Jack is a doctor and has his moral code that he walks on water.... I believe after being talked to like that- I would have walked away. Jerk. Even if he is working for the greater good here- how about a little kindness????

abbybaby

05-03-2007, 12:17 PM

Ya, the whole "whatever you have to say to me you can say in front of her" thing really got under my skin! Like him and Juliet are so close now. Treating Kate like that after all they've been through together was, I can't think of the word but he ticked me off.

Dezdemona

05-03-2007, 12:18 PM

People wanted him to be their "leader", but that's vastly different than saying they wanted him to be their "king". He's acting like his very word should be law and keeping information secret that people have a right to know. It doesn't bode well for Jack right now IMHO.

thedaveeyres

05-03-2007, 12:22 PM

Jack has been awesome this season. No-one can accuse him of not being an interesting character any more. :)

(4.8.15.16.23.42)

05-03-2007, 12:34 PM

I believe he's got the LOSTies best interests in mind...Well, I HOPE he does...Although it would be fun to see Jack get creepier and creepier!

DonWidmore

05-03-2007, 12:45 PM

flyer61055

05-03-2007, 12:46 PM

Jack's finally acting like a leader and leaders most often find themselves alone, separated from the group, which is what he had to do, completely disconnect in order to lead effectively.

Most of the Losties are bad people so perhaps he's leading them to their deaths, to Othersville to hand them over and become their new leader. Perhaps he'll even kill Locke with his bare hands in the process. That would officially make Jack bad which = likeable in Lost fandom so I'm looking forward to evil Jack. Bring him on!

Dezdemona

05-03-2007, 12:52 PM

I think Jack's current behavior is a roadblock they need to get past. The Others are coming for the women, and that's a problem bigger than anybody's ego, even Jack's. I hope they'll all get past their current suspicions, get the information out there and make a plan together. LTDA is still the best philosophy, and that was Jack's to begin with. He just needs to get back in touch with it IMO.

ChromeWeasel

05-03-2007, 12:59 PM

It wasn't bad enough when Jack refused to leave with Kate so she could talk to him alone, but then when Juliette said "We should tell her" He said no.

I'm wondering just how much more of his attitude Kate is going to put up with.

Yeah, how much will the self-centered, cold-blooded murderer Kate put up with? A guy isnt falling all over himself to provide for the hot chick. He's OBVIOUSLY evil!

None of this could have anything to do with the fact that Kate is completely untrustworthy. She wont keep her word and always acts according to her current best interests. She's messed up Jacks plans on multiple occassions. But Jack's a jerk, because he isnt doing everything she says without question.

ravenmoon

05-03-2007, 01:01 PM

I don't see how Jack's behaviour towards Kate can be seem as anything other than rude or condescending. Whatever plan he has, that was unnecessary. He needs to stop sulking because she slept with sawyer. He had no ties with her, she wasn't his girlfriend, he has no need to be so harsh when she was blatently coming over to try to keep him in the loop and be kind.

And this season, no one's asked him to be a leader. He just came back and decided to start barking orders at people, telling them they should trust his word witthout hesitation, ignoring them all, and talking down to Kate.

This episode shows that no one does want jack as leader any more, so I guess he can finally be free of all the pressure the mean old losties force upon him and look out for himself. Oh, actually he's been doing that since he found out about the submarine.

myothercarisflight815

05-03-2007, 01:02 PM

Yeah, how much will the self-centered, cold-blooded murderer Kate put up with? A guy isnt falling all over himself to provide for the hot chick. He's OBVIOUSLY evil!

None of this could have anything to do with the fact that Kate is completely untrustworthy. She wont keep her word and always acts according to her current best interests. She's messed up Jacks plans on multiple occassions. But Jack's a jerk, because he isnt doing everything she says without question.

Yeah!

Erm I mean... granted I don't get what the big secret is between Jack & Juliet... and given Juliet's recording to Ben last week,.. I'm not sure if Jack can be trusted either... *BUT*... Kate was a big blabbermouth to say all that to Jack and Jill Juliet.

Jack may be cornfusing... but Kate... COME ON!

Laurieg

05-03-2007, 01:03 PM

Yeah, how much will the self-centered, cold-blooded murderer Kate put up with? A guy isnt falling all over himself to provide for the hot chick. He's OBVIOUSLY evil!

None of this could have anything to do with the fact that Kate is completely untrustworthy. She wont keep her word and always acts according to her current best interests. She's messed up Jacks plans on multiple occassions. But Jack's a jerk, because he isnt doing everything she says without question.

Never said he was evil, but I feel he could have walked with Kate and heard her out. Even if he turned around and told Juliette what she said.

I do not think this has anything to do with leadership or Kate. I think it has to do with Jack has decided Juliette is trustworthy and this is his way of pushing it on everyone else.

He is holding his gound. "I trust her so you will too" To me he is coming off like a spoiled brat and I personally do not think this is the time for it, with the amount of danger they are in.

(4.8.15.16.23.42)

05-03-2007, 01:05 PM

GOB Bluth

05-03-2007, 01:19 PM

I agree with every bad thing people have said so far about Jack. He has been a turd this season and is turning his back to the people that care about him. BUT, imagine if he knows something so bad that he can't tell them right now. Like:

"Oh, you're not getting rescued because you're already dead"

I hope that is the case, because the character that I've grown to like, it too good to be a turd.

rabidranger

05-03-2007, 01:23 PM

It wasn't bad enough when Jack refused to leave with Kate so she could talk to him alone, but then when Juliette said "We should tell her" He said no.

I'm wondering just how much more of his attitude Kate is going to put up with.

Maybe we'll see a Losties' production of West Side Story? Jack on one side, Sawyer on the other, with Kate caught in the middle.....

The fact is, Kate's proven to be extremely unreliable where Jack's concerned. He's been very specific with his instructions to Kate, and she's ignored them time and again, botching Jack's plans in the process. Why wouldn't he be guarded when it comes to sharing confidential information with her?

rulostrmi

05-03-2007, 01:25 PM

Here's the deal:

Up until Jack, Kate, and Sawyer were captured by the others, Jack and Kate had that "I'll look at you and you'll blink back at me.. and we know what that means" kind of trust. They became friends, trusted eachother, took care of eachother... etc. Right?

Then the others kidnapped them and played their little mind games, set Jack up to see Kate's "betrayal" (or whatever) and that changed how Jack felt about Kate. Especially because Jack has issues with trust from his past. So who is he going to trust now? Convieniently, Juliet was there to fill the void.

So... Kate obviously feels remorse about it (their conversation in the pool room)... and Jack still has feelings ("I will come back for you"), but maybe needs to keep himself at a distance.

Maybe he has a plan, and in order to keep that plan viable he needs to make Juliet think that he's firmly in her camp. And by telling Kate to say whatever in front of Juliet is a way to solidify his trust with Juliet.

Or he's just acting like a big baby.

We shall see.

Colonel Sanders

05-03-2007, 01:34 PM

Kate probably won't have to put up with it much longer...I think they will tell her their "secret" very soon...Maybe even next week?

I wonder if Jules spilled the beans on how she was spying for the Others...She may have told Jack, and for some reason Jack didn't think the moment was right to tell Kate....

Laurieg

05-03-2007, 01:34 PM

Maybe we'll see a Losties' production of West Side Story? Jack on one side, Sawyer on the other, with Kate caught in the middle.....

The fact is, Kate's proven to be extremely unreliable where Jack's concerned. He's been very specific with his instructions to Kate, and she's ignored them time and again, botching Jack's plans in the process. Why wouldn't he be guarded when it comes to sharing confidential information with her?

Jack wasn't the one trying to share information, Kate was.

rabidranger

05-03-2007, 01:43 PM

Jack wasn't the one trying to share information, Kate was.

Juliet suggested that they "tell her" (Kate). Jack said "not yet". Anyway, Jack's overall demeanor towards Kate indicates that he feels she's unreliable and irrelevant, and I can't disagree.

TheDome

05-03-2007, 01:52 PM

Had Jack not completely isolated himself from everyone in the camp after his return, and brought back an other who was under his "protection" and didn't have to say anything to anyone, I think things both on the island, and on here would be working out better for him.

I don't blame him for not telling Kate, she'd have probably already screwed things up by now. However people like Sayid, and Sawyer specifically have always been ready to play good soldier if there was a plan on the table, had Jack come back sought their input, or even just shared what he was thinking with them, things could have been really different. Had they raised any problems over Juliet, all Jacko had to do was remove her from his "protection" and had her talk. I'm not talking about "letting the Iraqi do what he does" either. Although I don't know what good that would have done since Juliet will lie to, or double cross anyone to get off the island.

All in all, I guess my point is that the secrecy is what is hurting Jack, there are people there (other than evil Juliet) that he can still trust, and he should have utilized them. Thats what good leaders do. Next week with the playing of the tape should help us see where things are eventually going to play out

Laurieg

05-03-2007, 01:54 PM

Juliet suggested that they "tell her" (Kate). Jack said "not yet". Anyway, Jack's overall demeanor towards Kate indicates that he feels she's unreliable and irrelevant, and I can't disagree.

Yes but my oringinal post was about Jack not letting Kate talk to him in privite.

MissBeckyThatcher

05-03-2007, 01:55 PM

The fact is, Kate's proven to be extremely unreliable where Jack's concerned. He's been very specific with his instructions to Kate, and she's ignored them time and again, botching Jack's plans in the process.

That's because he's never kept her in the loop. He expects her to obey him without question, so most of the time she "messes up" it's because Jack didn't tell her what was really going on. For example: jack told Kate not to come back for him because he was planning on leaving the island! It had nothing to do with protecting her as she believed. There have been so few times that Jack has treated Kate with respect. He's conflicted where she's concerned. I think he has feelings for her, but he's too egotistical to accept her as she is. Kate has proven time and again that she's loyal to Jack and time again he has shown his lack of trust in her.

Just my humble 2¢.

MB

Krystal

05-03-2007, 01:56 PM

So what that Jack didn't want to talk to Kate in private. Since when does not wanting to talk to someone in private qualify as them having an attitude problem?

kimbrchick

05-03-2007, 02:00 PM

I really don't know Jack's reasons for acting this way. Some people here have mentioned good possible explanations. It really did bother me though. Even if he does trust Juliet it was just rude to do that to Kate. Maybe she had a personal problem. Juliet even said twice that it was fine and that she would leave them for a moment.

Maybe Jack is just still feeling betrayed and hurt by Kate's actions with Sawyer and this is his way of torturing her.

asim1701

05-03-2007, 02:04 PM

...that Kate has been written out of the script for Season Four! LOL! :cool:
lol i like this one the best

abbybaby

05-03-2007, 02:10 PM

flyer61055

05-03-2007, 02:11 PM

Maybe Jack knows that Kate is his weakness and doesn't want whatever this facade is he's put up to crumble by spending 10 minutes alone with her, pleading with him, touching him, begging him to tell her why he's behaving the way he is. We saw how easily she got to him in Left Behind, how he had to work really hard to get control of his emotions and get back to stone cold mode.

Then again, maybe Jack just wishes she'd go away and leave him alone.

Debisobsessed

05-03-2007, 02:12 PM

Kate cannot keep an island secret and has been a pain in Jack's butt. She has screwed things up time and time again. He accepted Kate even though he knew she was a fugitive from the law. He wants Kate to accpt Juliet in the same manner.

Also, I thought this episode made it pretty clear that Jack and Juliet have a plan. That look they exchanged had something to do with Naomi and/or the phone. They know something vital. I agree that not telling Kate is probably the best choice right now. That doesn't make Jack a turd or a jerk.

Laurieg

05-03-2007, 02:15 PM

Once again. My oringinal question is not about Jack telling Kate anything.

It's about why he was so unwilling to talk to her in privite so Kate could tell Jack what she knew.

Even though in the end Kate blurted it out in front of Juliette, but that isn't the point either.

desmondslosthairstraighteners

05-03-2007, 02:16 PM

JULIET: We should tell her...

JACK: Kate, you got some...Arzt...on..you...

Kevonski

05-03-2007, 02:16 PM

I thinik Jack and Juliette have a tacit alliance. Part of having Kate speak in front of her was because he want't to be sure Juliette knows he is still down for "the plan", and whatever that entails.

allen111

05-03-2007, 02:29 PM

Laurie P

05-03-2007, 02:35 PM

Thats what I thought too. Like Jack was throwing his new girlfriend in Kates face.
#1 Juliet is not Jack's girlfriend. Nothing that could be construed as romantic has gone on between them. He is simply the only person that will talk to her and for whatever plan(s) Jack has, he obvously needs Juliet to believe he trusts her.

Plus Kate has historically worn her heart on her sleeve. She blurts vital information out and acts impulsively. Whatever plan Jack has, he needs for it to be a secret at this point. If he shares information with Kate, it won't be a secret for long.

LadyJ27

05-03-2007, 02:40 PM

Maybe he has a plan, and in order to keep that plan viable he needs to make Juliet think that he's firmly in her camp. And by telling Kate to say whatever in front of Juliet is a way to solidify his trust with Juliet...We shall see.

There are so many ways this scenario could play out and Rulostrmi's is the most feasible (imo).

Once the recorder is played for everyone (no doubt earning Sawyer mega points and an opportunity to appear leader-like to the rest of the group), I think one of two things are going to happen:

a) Jack will explain his and Juliet's plan to ease everyone's anger/mistrust; thus engaging all to prepare for the upcoming raid Sawyer will announce.
b) Jack attempts to explain will be "too little too late" and will not quash anyone's doubts. He will be officially deemed untrustworthy and ousted as leader.

However people like Sayid, and Sawyer specifically have always been ready to play good soldier if there was a plan on the table, had Jack come back sought their input, or even just shared what he was thinking with them, things could have been really different.

Jack's inability to SHARE THE INFO has gotten everyone in some hot water before: had he shared his and Sayid's plan before they ventured out in Season 2's finale, perhaps everyone could've joined/followed from a distance - in other words, been prepared for the ambush! Or even just formed a better plan.

Maybe Dr. Shephard does have the so-called "God" complex, believing his ideas are best and unquestionable... But as we've all complained numerous times: no one SHARES info on this island!

Jack's a great leader, but he's not a general. Many folks on the board here have voiced opinions that Sayid would do a better job as leader than Jack, and at this point, I agree. As the island becomes more and more combative (and didn't Colleen say to Sun before she was shot, "If you kill us, THEN we become your enemy"?) I feel Sayid is the wiser choice to lead.

wishiwasfreckles

05-03-2007, 02:41 PM

Didn't the new "mean" Jack just whisper in Kate's ear a couple of days ago " I will come back for you".....seems to me he's a far cry from who he was then.

nabine

05-03-2007, 02:42 PM

I totally feel like Jack knows what Juliette's really up to and they're in it together, so I think it has something to do with maybe Kate being possibly pregnant.

w462650

05-03-2007, 02:45 PM

It may be that Jack is waiting to find out who is and is not pregnant before telling everyone the others are coming. This way they know who the targets will be and can set a better trap.

halfrek

05-03-2007, 02:46 PM

changed the thread title so as to not keep inviting rude comments.

this is really about Jack's attitude towards Kate and his refusal to talk to her privately, in addition to not "telling" her something that he and Juliet knows.

carry on.

Laurieg

05-03-2007, 02:48 PM

Okay fine, your title is MUCH better then mine....Thank You.=]

Colonel Sanders

05-03-2007, 02:49 PM

I think Juliette confessed to Jack about spying for the Others...and Jack decided that Kate wasn't trustworthy enough to keep the info secret.

(4.8.15.16.23.42)

05-03-2007, 02:50 PM

Once the recorder is played for everyone (no doubt earning Sawyer mega points and an opportunity to appear leader-like to the rest of the group), I think one of two things are going to happen:

a) Jack will explain his and Juliet's plan to ease everyone's anger/mistrust; thus engaging all to prepare for the upcoming raid Sawyer will announce.
b) Jack attempts to explain will be "too little too late" and will not quash anyone's doubts. He will be officially deemed untrustworthy and ousted as leader.
I vote for option B! Let Sayid take over **MOD edited**

abbybaby

05-03-2007, 02:55 PM

#1 Juliet is not Jack's girlfriend. Nothing that could be construed as romantic has gone on between them. He is simply the only person that will talk to her and for whatever plan(s) Jack has, he obvously needs Juliet to believe he trusts her.

Plus Kate has historically worn her heart on her sleeve. She blurts vital information out and acts impulsively. Whatever plan Jack has, he needs for it to be a secret at this point. If he shares information with Kate, it won't be a secret for long.

I know Juliet is not Jacks Girlfriend, thats why I said "like". But I should have explained myself better. The whole "whatever you have to say to me you can say in front of her" line was meant to show Kate how important Juliet is to him now, and thats Kate isn't anymore. Kates not the only one on that island acting like their in junior high.

Ok, I have to agree Kate's taken over Hurleys role as the Village Blabbermouth this season. I can see why Jack doesn't want to share information with her, but he doesn't have to be such a jerk.

Deadshot

05-03-2007, 02:59 PM

Achara (love her or loathe her) said that he was a leader and a great man but this would make him lonely and angry.

So Jack will be ousted as leader because he "kept information" from Kate and the other losties.

And you vote for Sayid to replace him who is currently conspiring with 3 other losties to hide a person away in a tent who could potentially rescue the entire lot of them.

Out of the frying pan?

Jack has ALWAYS had the best interests of the losties in mind. Even when he has screwed up (which he has,cos you know...he's human) he did it with good intentions.

I don't believe any differently here. Jack has seen how The Others and Ben work up close. He is trying to play them at their own game. Remember the end of the mini-season and Jack basically holding Ben hostage so Sawyer and Kate could escape. That was the emergence of the "new jack". The old jack would of shared his plan with Sayid and Kate the moment he got back from Othersville. Not so this time. He has learned from his captivity and he is keeping knowledge compartmentlised. Just like Ben does. He's doing this for the greater good.

PapaThor

05-03-2007, 03:07 PM

Jack has been awesome this season. No-one can accuse him of not being an interesting character any more. :)

and at the very least, enigmatic.

MyLost

05-03-2007, 03:14 PM

The writers would have had the old Kate walk away when Jack said what he did. The new Kate deserves what she gets.

What were they going to tell her? She's pregnant, was my thought.

Also, I keep forgetting. The writers did this, I think to move the story along to next week's confrontation. They could have had Jack accidently drop in on Naomi's tent and then have everyone verbally attack them, but they choose this way. Making Kate weaker. Their choice.

Raaabo

05-03-2007, 03:14 PM

Hi guys, first time poster, but long time fan of the show. Anyway, my thoughts on the secret is that Jack

knows the camp will get raided for the pregnant women.

Why didn't he tell Kate?

Because she's pregnant and will be taken too.

If Jack told Kate at that moment that the Others want her, Sun, and whoever else might be pregnant? (Rose maybe? hehe)... She would freak out because A) She doesn't know she's pregnant and B) She would never ever want to go back with the Others after the way she was treated.

I personally love this angle they are taking the show because I always liked Jack, but his character always seems to want to carry the burden even if he doesn't have to. The guy's been everybody's Clark Kent up until the third season and now he's become more like Bruce Wayne... independent, secretive, and a loner. If somehow he becomes a "bad guy" to the losties, I say go for it... it'd be the greatest twist they could pull. Locke's already on his own. I see him more like Kane from Kung-Fu... left to walk the island alone, deep in philosophical thought and gaining enlightment on his own. He doesn't have any attachments... that seems to be Jack's problem. He doesn't have any reason to have attachments but he keeps forcing them upon himself.

Barrister

05-03-2007, 03:25 PM

Juliet asked Jack if they should tell Kate something. Jack said not yet.

Other people have wondered why Jack is staying away from Kate.

I think Jack knows Kate is (or is probably) pregnant with Sawyer's baby. Knowing that a woman is preggers with another man's kid pretty much puts the kibosh on any romantic intentions.

Or, if not that she is pregnant, what is the secret?

Deadshot

05-03-2007, 03:26 PM

It's like Achara said though that because he was a leader and great man he would become lonely and angry. And he kinda has lately. Nice Bruce Wayne comparison btw. I'm sure some of the female members on the board are now thinking of Foxy in a rubber codpiece as we speak.

IHOP

05-03-2007, 03:26 PM

Semperamabilis

05-03-2007, 04:14 PM

I think that Jack is getting played by Juliette... I think that he thinks that she is being honest.. but in the end, she is playing him like a fiddle...

mikey_mike

05-03-2007, 04:31 PM

I'm wondering if there is still a possibility of communicating via Naomi's phone (assuming Naomi is who she says she is which is a big assumption). If the "sky going purple" was an electromagnetic pulse, wouldn't that just mess-up devices on the island (or nearby). A phone from off the island would not be damaged and might still work.

i am thinking that the disturbance/feedback sound that Naomi's phone made suggests that there is something that is blocking the signal. I dont think it is the phone per se, but the fact that they wont be able to send or acquire a signal and that might be because the EMP is still disrupting the immediate environment around the island.

LostInJack

05-03-2007, 04:31 PM

Yeah, how much will the self-centered, cold-blooded murderer Kate put up with? A guy isnt falling all over himself to provide for the hot chick. He's OBVIOUSLY evil!

None of this could have anything to do with the fact that Kate is completely untrustworthy. She wont keep her word and always acts according to her current best interests. She's messed up Jacks plans on multiple occassions. But Jack's a jerk, because he isnt doing everything she says without question.

Couldn't have put it better myself, she messed up his plans, slept with Sawyer which according to Juliet broke his heart and she thinks they can just pick up where they left off. I think first and foremost right now Jack needs to concentrate on his plan and have Kate trust in his decision. This may seem arrogant, but what I really think he is saying is "I'm on top of this", "Have faith in me".

GodBlessTexas

05-03-2007, 04:33 PM

Oh, I don't. I want the characters you listed, plus Rose & Bernard, Alex & Karl, and Jin (no use mentioning Sun; she's already doomed), taken to a safe spot. Then Danielle can set off her dynamite and blow everyone else to bits!

This is my immediate reaction to tonight's eppy. If I didn't care about the show, I wouldn't have such severe emotional reactions.

But, OK, folks. I didn't mean to upset YOU, so I'll try to limit my time on this episode thread. See ya around the other boards!

A lot of us don't understand why this is your reaction to the episode. I don't hate any of these people, and I'm interested in where the story is going.

MegletTX

05-03-2007, 04:40 PM

After last night I definitely felt like part of the con is Ben trying to make the Losties doubt/distrust Jack for a very specific reason. My mom who is NOT an avid Lost watcher finally got mad at me because every time we turned around I was like "he's conning him!" lol and she goes "WHAT'S WITH THE CONS???"

GodBlessTexas

05-03-2007, 04:42 PM

i am thinking that the disturbance/feedback sound that Naomi's phone made suggests that there is something that is blocking the signal. I dont think it is the phone per se, but the fact that they wont be able to send or acquire a signal and that might be because the EMP is still disrupting the immediate environment around the island.

An Electro Magnetic Pulse is a one time event, hence why it's a pulse. From wikipedia:

electromagnetic radiation from an explosion (especially a nuclear explosion) or an intensely fluctuating magnetic field caused by Compton-recoil electrons and photoelectrons from photons scattered in the materials of the electronic or explosive device or in a surrounding medium. The resulting electric and magnetic fields may couple with electrical/electronic systems to produce damaging current and voltage surges.

An EMP has no long lasting effects, other than those caused by the current and voltage surges that travel down electronic pathways. Whatever is causing the signal disruption may be because of what caused the EMP in the first place, but it's not the EMP itself.

TK 421

05-03-2007, 04:56 PM

Then the island's Electro Magnetic Field or something else is disrupting the sat phone's ability to recieve or transmit.

driveshaft76

05-03-2007, 04:56 PM

I think they know that if they can get a hold of the phone, they can call the Wonderpets to save them. The fly boat may need to make a couple trips, but I'm certain the Wonderpets could save them with a little team work.

Linny, Tuck, & Ming-Ming too! My son loves the Wonderpets. Thanks for the laugh! This is the funniest thing I've read in a while.

piperdox

05-03-2007, 04:59 PM

THESE PEOPLE DISGUST ME!! :mad:

The way I feel right now, though, I'm not sure I'll come back in January. I hope I'll cool off. But I really don't think I can take much more of this.

Well, after 12272 post in a mere 18 months i'd be wanting to take a break too! :)

ChromeWeasel

05-03-2007, 05:11 PM

Kate has proven time and again that she's loyal to Jack and time again he has shown his lack of trust in her.

Just my humble 2¢.

MB
How is she loyal? He told her to stay behind when he went after Michael last season, she said she would, but didnt. She got herself caught, risked the lives of Sawyer, Locke, and Jack, and got all their weapons confiscated. Kate put everyone else at risk by selfishly doing her own thing. Whether she liked it or not, someone else was looking out for her best interest. She couldnt tolerate that so she went independant and put everyone else's lives in danger.

This season Jack gave up his own freedom in order to get Sawyer and Kate's. He performed the surgery on Ben to get them out of prison and back to their becch. Once again Kate goes off on her own, breaks her word, and gets caught, messing everything up. Same thing as before. She's selfish and wants here own way all the time.

I'm not making this up because I dont like Kate, the producers have explicitly said that this is how she is in her flashbacks. We've seen examples of this all through her past. Kate ruin people's lives. She's not a conman like Sawyer, but she's completely self-absorbed in her actions. Even when she's trying to help someone else, she's really just acting in a selfish way. Her flashback with her mom made this point clear as day.

Kate's really, really cute. I think that most casual viewers are willing to forgive the fact that she's a murderous, self-absorbed person because she's gorgeous and relatively entertaining to watch. Lots of people on this forum treat Sawyers the same way. He's a good-looking, selfish murderer that's entertaining to watch. The show gives you enough feel-good moments that you may forget what horrible people these characters are deep down.

archangel1772

05-03-2007, 05:21 PM

I think Jack knows something very important. I think Juliet, or someone else (Ben?), told him something he didn't quite believe. The arrival of Naomi proved what he learned is true. For whatever reason, Jack is not ready to share this information with the rest of the Losties yet. I believe that whatever he knows probably has to do more with the big picture about what is really going on.

Felaries65

05-03-2007, 05:27 PM

How is she loyal? He told her to stay behind when he went after Michael last season, she said she would, but didnt. She got herself caught, risked the lives of Sawyer, Locke, and Jack, and got all their weapons confiscated. Kate put everyone else at risk by selfishly doing her own thing. Whether she liked it or not, someone else was looking out for her best interest. She couldnt tolerate that so she went independant and put everyone else's lives in danger.

This season Jack gave up his own freedom in order to get Sawyer and Kate's. He performed the surgery on Ben to get them out of prison and back to their becch. Once again Kate goes off on her own, breaks her word, and gets caught, messing everything up. Same thing as before. She's selfish and wants here own way all the time.

I'm not making this up because I dont like Kate, the producers have explicitly said that this is how she is in her flashbacks. We've seen examples of this all through her past. Kate ruin people's lives. She's not a conman like Sawyer, but she's completely self-absorbed in her actions. Even when she's trying to help someone else, she's really just acting in a selfish way. Her flashback with her mom made this point clear as day.

Kate's really, really cute. I think that most casual viewers are willing to forgive the fact that she's a murderous, self-absorbed person because she's gorgeous and relatively entertaining to watch. Lots of people on this forum treat Sawyers the same way. He's a good-looking, selfish murderer that's entertaining to watch. The show gives you enough feel-good moments that you may forget what horrible people these characters are deep down.

The difference is that Sawyer always seemed to be contrite or remorseful over his murderous actions - both in Australia and on the island after killing Cooper. I don't recall Kate ever being remorseful over her murder of Wayne.

LawyerMom

05-03-2007, 05:40 PM

If J&J knew about Naomi because she is an Other, there has to be something to her using the farce that she was sent by Penny vs. being sent looking for the plane crash. Maybe the Others want the Losties to start thinking they are dead. That would be an interesting experiment. How do people act when they think they are dead... Ok, that doesn't make much sense but it would explain the purgatory theme- the writers say they aren't in purgatory but maybe the Others want them to think they are???

nancy

05-03-2007, 05:44 PM

annieone

05-03-2007, 05:44 PM

They know that the Others will raid the beach and take the pregnant women. They do not oppose this. They are not telling Kate that she is pregnant and/or about the raid.

What I do not understand is why is Jack not interested in Naomi, but only on her means to contact the outside world. He seemed not a bit surprised by the news of Naomi's arrival but totaly focused on the phone. Why?

Dany_E

05-03-2007, 05:57 PM

Quinch

05-03-2007, 06:05 PM

lulinha_k

05-03-2007, 06:13 PM

ZapRowsdower

05-03-2007, 06:22 PM

Exactly! Jack's been duped by Juliet = boring story. Jack's pretending to be duped by Juliet so that they can dupe Ben who may be duping Team Losties into turning on each other (I'm telling you, Ben's a big fan of The Art of War) not realizing that Team Others is secretly pretty divided as well..now that's more like it. .

Agreed on the structure, but you're leaving out the best part: Jack's double-double-cross. Ben doesn't want the Losties to turn on one another...he wants them to trust Jack. Why leave it to chance who's going to line up next to who right before your big raid, when you can line them all up in a row in front of someone whose about to stab them in the back?

Ben is point-blank in telling Locke about Juliet's status as a mole. He also cuts him loose with this knowledge. He must expect Locke to get word to the Losties. There is no way he would burn Juliet like this unless he expected her to betray him. This expectation must have been formed before he sent her off, so it also must be part of his plan...she's essentially a decoy.

And if she's a decoy, what is the trap? I guess it could be Naomi, but it would make much more sense if it was Jack. Revealing that Juliet was sent as a mole serves the same function as Claire's implant: a fake crisis so that people will trust the person who solves it. Jack will "solve" the Juliet crisis by revealing the "secret" he is keeping from Kate: that Juliet has told him about the raid and he is going to lead a counterattack. Of course, he will lead everyone, including Juliet, right into Ben's waiting arms.

This is why Juliet wants to tell Kate and Jack stops her...he knows more than she does about Ben's plans.

sp31767

05-03-2007, 06:39 PM

If she's pregnant and Jack knows because of Juliet's snooping then he's definitley in cahoots with her and not just falling for her :i'm a lostie now" act. hmph

EternalBlue

05-03-2007, 06:59 PM

I dont think it has to do anything with Kate being pregnant. Juliet couldnt get a sample of her without her blood or ultrasound or whatever - and I´m pretty sure we would have seen if she tried to get that out of Kate.;)

I think it had to do with maybe Juliet and Jack working on a plan against Ben (because we know he is working on a plan against Ben), and he didnt want to tell her - YET - because:

a) he´s trying to protect her (the old the less you know, the better method)
b) he wants the plan to be a complete secret till crucial moment
c) he´s still hurt by her and is acting like a child (which also wouldnt be a surprise seeing the way characters act this season:rolleyes: )

crazynorvegian

05-03-2007, 07:10 PM

Deez_Nutz16

05-03-2007, 08:00 PM

Gosh, Did I just figured it out...Jack doesn't want to tell Kate his plan to stop the others from kidnapping the women who are preggers (We all know Kate and her record with messing up plans)? Did Juiet tell jack about Ben and her being a mole? Are they working on a plan to stop Ben?

But did Ben tell Locke so he would tell his "old camp" friends the others are coming (Ironic its for the women...season 1, coming for the children) and could go to war wiht the Losties to eliminate all the unwanted people on their island?

Just random questions popping in my head while watching the espisode again.

DoggoneLost

05-03-2007, 08:26 PM

I think it might be possible that Juliet told Jack she is a 'mole' and is looking for some kind of mutiny against Ben (remember - "i hate you"). Juliet wants him to tell this to Kate to gain some trust. Why the time isn't right I have no idea, but we'll probably find out Jacks intentions soon. My guess is they have some plan that hinges on the sudden revelation to the Losties at the last minute which saves them from the Others and then everyone will believe Jack when he says Juliet's chill. Which she is. Because she hates Ben. I mean, that's gotta count for something.

I dont think it has to do anything with Kate being pregnant. Juliet couldnt get a sample of her without her blood or ultrasound or whatever - and I´m pretty sure we would have seen if she tried to get that out of Kate.;)

I think it had to do with maybe Juliet and Jack working on a plan against Ben (because we know he is working on a plan against Ben), and he didnt want to tell her - YET - because:

a) he´s trying to protect her (the old the less you know, the better method)
b) he wants the plan to be a complete secret till crucial moment
c) he´s still hurt by her and is acting like a child (which also wouldnt be a surprise seeing the way characters act this season:rolleyes: )

I would have to agree with both EternalBlue and crazynorvegian. I don't think it has anything to do with Kate being pregnant or not. They probably have a plan re: Ben and the rest of the Others. Jack is certainly very neutral in his behavior towards Kate. If he and Juliet do have a plan, Jack has his poker face on. Even after Kate spilled the beans re: the parachutist, Jack remained calm.

I think Jack had to come up with an alternate plan after Locke blew up the sub and in order to do this, he needed to gain Juliet's trust and vice versa. In order to maintain the masquerade, he has had to keep Kate at a distance. Of course, it is at Kate's emotional expense. I think she still believes in Jack, but is at a loss for an explanation re: his behavior, hence the broken promise she made to Sayid. By telling Jack, she is attempting to somehow (for lack of a better phrase) 'light a fire under Jack's behind' to make him realize that he is fast losing the trust of the rest of the Losties he once had, but that she still had his back.

Just my observations. =)

Casey63

05-03-2007, 10:09 PM

Hi! Long time reviewer but this is my first post. I had one idea after watching last night. Jack & Juliet are plotting against Ben. Why not tell the 815ers? Is it possible that there is another spy in the camp? This would explain Jack's reluctance to disclose the plan to anyone including Kate if he suspects there is a spy but doesn't know who it is. The fact the Ben is so willing to "out" Juliet suggests that he wants this information to split the camp and he has another source for information on the camp. Could the plan to take the women be a hoax to scare the losties? If they wanted to take the women, it could have been done while most of the leaders were away from the camp. Ben was too casual in letting this information slip to Locke.

Zoriah

05-03-2007, 10:21 PM

Jack's attitude towards Kate right now is all an act. The last real, honest thing he said to her was when he whispered in her ear that when he got off of the island in the submarine, he would come back for her. Everything since then has been designed to either trick Juliet into thinking he is bonding with her or to trick Ben if he is watching somehow.

Just how much of an act is a friend meant to take? I think Kate would be well within her rights to chew him out about it. He's only acting like a cold dismissive person to butter up Juliet? Exploiting Kate in his manipulative games of politic while she suffers emotionally wondering what happened to the friend who used to trust her and include her - the friend she risked her live to rescue and bring home again? Sorry, I don't buy that as being noble. I don't care how clever is being in trying to beating Ben at his own machiavellian gambits. I felt the same way when he yelled at her and refused her plea to operate in order to save Sawyer's life.

If there is anyone he should be able to trust in the camp, it's Kate and/or Sayid. They've pretty much supported him from the beginning. He wants their unquestioning support? Them to have his back? Well perhaps he should be trusting them over Juliet, including them in his plans.

tocono

05-03-2007, 11:37 PM

Re: Secret between Jack and Juliet:
It seems pretty obvious that Kate is pregnant, and conceived on the island with Sawyer; this would explain the fact that Ben says that Juliet is collecting samples to find pregnant women, and that in three days they will raid the camp to get "them". What is not clear is whether Ben knows that Kate is pregnant- if so, it would explain the fact that he assigned Juliet to stay behind with her, but not the fact that he left her behind to begin with. I thought that he was hell-bent on solving the dead mother syndrome? Or... Is he? It's possible that they got a sample from Kate when she was a captive, and this whole scheme (letting her go back to the beach, having James Ford kill Sawyer Sr., even the parachutist) is a big Others- orchestrated mind bend like everything else. But what's the goal? To get us to tune in next week? I hate following this show so much it hurts. Still, I'll tune in next week.:mad:

nancy

05-04-2007, 12:09 AM

Just how much of an act is a friend meant to take? I think Kate would be well within her rights to chew him out about it. He's only acting like a cold dismissive person to butter up Juliet? Exploiting Kate in his manipulative games of politic while she suffers emotionally wondering what happened to the friend who used to trust her and include her - the friend she risked her live to rescue and bring home again? Sorry, I don't buy that as being noble. I don't care how clever is being in trying to beating Ben at his own machiavellian gambits. I felt the same way when he yelled at her and refused her plea to operate in order to save Sawyer's life.

If there is anyone he should be able to trust in the camp, it's Kate and/or Sayid. They've pretty much supported him from the beginning. He wants their unquestioning support? Them to have his back? Well perhaps he should be trusting them over Juliet, including them in his plans.
As I said before, I think it's an act. I do agree with you though that Jack is pushing their trust in him awfully far. It would be nice if he had at least slipped Kate or Sayid a note saying "trust me, I've got a plan, don't give me away, Ben's watching." I'm still not sure whether he's trying to gain Juliet's trust or whether he's trying to make sure that if Ben is watching somehow (and I'm sure there's a way) that everyone's reactions to him are just what Ben would expect to see if Juliet were winning Jack's affections. But if Jack doesn't at least give them something to go on, they will turn against him, and that could prove to be their undoing. Live together, die alone really is the right idea.

CreateYourOwnFate

05-04-2007, 12:27 AM

What Juliette wanted Jack to tell Kate is that they have a plan to oust the others.

Juliette and Jack are going to tell Kate that she is pregnant - and then of course, the news that she will likely die in child birth. Both Kate and Sun will have to depend on Juliette to save their lives.

Juliette and Jack are both good people - who want off the island at all costs. Both of them hate Ben. The only difference is, Jack will turn into a hero at the end and find a way for everyone to be rescued; whereas Juliette is only concerned with her own return.

ScottNotSteve

05-05-2007, 11:28 AM

#5. This is how Jack will win Kate's trust for Juliet's benefit. What I don't know is how anyone could know that Kate is pregnant...apart from Kate. But if Sun is in "danger" that is probably enough for Kate to go along...

OALpilot

05-05-2007, 11:56 AM

Loz

05-06-2007, 01:49 AM

Here's what I think is the secret:

Jack and Juliet know that the island 815 crash was staged. So Jack and Juliet are simply being cynical. They think a rescue attempt is not possible, and that this is another of Ben's tricks. However, they don't know about Penny, who is after Desmond, not the fake crash survivors.

Iamonthemanifest

05-06-2007, 01:57 AM

What Jack and Juliet know ? What's their secrets ?

1) There no way outside world can communicate with the island

2) There no way to escape

3) They are all dead

4) Naom* is probably an other

Jack and Juliet probably know that since Locke blew up Patchy's crib, that Dharma is now aware that 'hostiles are in control'. So, they probably know how much time it will take for a response to occur.
Which response will probably lead to another 'purge', but of a different sort, this time.
Naomi was probably given a pic of Des (if she is a liar) by the timeline adjusters so that he can be pulled out to avoid further altering of the timeline.

Loz

05-06-2007, 02:18 AM

Jack and Juliet probably know that since Locke blew up Patchy's crib, that Dharma is now aware that 'hostiles are in control'. So, they probably know how much time it will take for a response to occur.
Which response will probably lead to another 'purge', but of a different sort, this time.
Naomi was probably given a pic of Des (if she is a liar) by the timeline adjusters so that he can be pulled out to avoid further altering of the timeline.
But if Naomi is an Other, why the mention of the Bali crash? What purpose does it serve? Would this information not create a desparate reaction, something the Others want to avoid?

John Burger

05-06-2007, 03:03 AM

ANSWER :)

.--although its not on your list....you forgot the most obvious logical storytelling ploy

Juliet told Jack the Others are coming to get the women. This took place sometime after They got the beach. When Sawyer plays that tape--Jack is going to say he already knew. Thats the secret. Why is he waiting? The writers wrote it in for suspense. Seen it a hundred times in movies and I think Im gonna see it again wednesday

Saphiamond

05-06-2007, 03:20 AM

you may be right

allergygal

05-06-2007, 04:33 AM

If Kate's preganant and Jack knows about it, there's no way he would hide that information from her. He's a doctor.

...Jack & Juliet are plotting against Ben. Why not tell the 815ers? Is it possible that there is another spy in the camp? This would explain Jack's reluctance to disclose the plan to anyone including Kate if he suspects there is a spy but doesn't know who it is. The fact the Ben is so willing to "out" Juliet suggests that he wants this information to split the camp and he has another source for information on the camp. Could the plan to take the women be a hoax to scare the losties? If they wanted to take the women, it could have been done while most of the leaders were away from the camp. Ben was too casual in letting this information slip to Locke.

I think this is the most plausible scenario. If Jack and Juliet know about the looming attack and have a plan to either stop it or counteract it, there's simply no reason why they would keep this information secret unless they feel there's someone there that can't be trusted and they don't know who it is. Why? In season 2, Jack and Ana Lucia were going to form an army to protect themselves against the Others. A man who's that serious about being prepared isn't going to sit around chit-chatting on the beach while he should be getting people ready unless there's a serious reason to keep it quiet.

So who can't be trusted? We may not know if Naomi is good or bad yet, but she can't be the one they were worried about because whatever they know, they knew before Kate told them about her. So if there's a spy in camp, it would have to be one of our beloved Losties. I'm going to rule out Kate right now because her telling Jack that no one trusted him anymore made her trustworthy to him. And that's why Juliet was going to let her in on the secret.

Whatever happened to that walkie talkie that was found in Paulo's things? If there's a spy in camp, I'd put my money on whoever has that radio. By my recollection, Charlie, Hurley and Sawyer were there when the radio was found. I honestly can't imagine any of them turning to the Others, so maybe someone else has the radio now?

Talking Dreams

05-06-2007, 05:08 AM

What does it matter if they know someone is coming to try and take a woman? Don't they already have security measures in place and if not, why not? Seems like enough has happened that they would already have lookouts and the like around the perimeter of their camp?

souidos

05-06-2007, 08:27 AM

Hi all..well..i read a lot of bad stuff about Jack in this thread. I don't get it. I'm feeling like we're watching different shows. From the first season i think it's obvious that Jack and Locke are the most interesting characters of the show. They're completely different of course but that makes it more interesting. Faith vs Science and stuff like that. Now as for the last episodes i have to agree that Jack is completely different but we''l have to wait till the season finale to see why. As for what's their secret..i really don't have a clue.I want to exclude the pregnancy of Kate. Claire,Sun and now Kate? That would not be cool. Of course she slept with Sawyer 3 times so far and maybe it would be logical she would get pregnant eventually. Kate used to be my favourite character [she's extremely hot lol] but for now i'm sticking with Jack & Locke .After all this is a man's worl lol.:kate: :jack: :locke:

Holmes

05-06-2007, 02:30 PM

I'm gonna finish watching this season. Gotta. Too much invested.

The way I feel right now, though, I'm not sure I'll come back in January. I hope I'll cool off. But I really don't think I can take much more of this.

That's two of us. I'm 90% sure i'm done after this season

And all those who think Juliet has told Jack about the plan - what makes you think this ? Nothing has happened since we found out about the Others' plan that would make Juliet reconsider.

If this pans out that way, then it just confirms my belief that TPTB have been deceiving their audience. They've been watching too many episodes of Columbo where he just comes out with a piece of evidence that the audience never saw.

Evangeline Lilly and Matthew Fox must have been reading recent scripts and wondering what they've done to deserve this.

unforgiven91

05-06-2007, 03:02 PM

ok, first off they are not dead, i think Darlton already cleared that up. Also there is a way off the island, how did they recruit juliet, and how did the others manage to get a helicopter if naomi was an other.

Fierro

05-06-2007, 04:58 PM

I just had an idea...Remember when Juliet asked Ben to take one of the pregnant women out of the island to check her theory about the DOC. Well, Ben said he wasn't letting anyone leave the island. We already know he doesn't want his people leaving the island, but what if there is another reason? We know that all pregnant women die if the baby was conceived on the island, right? But we still don't know the cause. What if they are sick? A disease created by Dharma that spread out amongst the others a long time ago causing infertility.... Ben might already know that and not only that, what if they had already taken a pregnant woman off the island? What could have happened to her and her baby? What if the babies were born naturally, but they were already INFECTED with this 'disease'? What could the concequences be for the rest of the world? How serious could this disease be off the island?
What if Juliet learned about this later on and told Jack? Now, they suspect that Kate might be pregnant too and they don't want her to be 'rescued'....
What would Kate choose: Die on the island with your baby or get rescued, survive and give birth to an infected child, who, eventually, could help spread this incurable disease throughout the world causing the death of many many people....

hugh_person

05-06-2007, 05:20 PM

And all those who think Juliet has told Jack about the plan - what makes you think this ? Nothing has happened since we found out about the Others' plan that would make Juliet reconsider.

I can't speak for everyone, but this is why I think so:

1) We know from Juliet's flashback that she wants off the island and isn't too happy with Ben.

2) When Ben goes over the plan with her, she looks sort of out of it to the point that Ben asks her if she's alright --- which suggests she's not really into the plan.

3) When they are walking back to the beach and she tells Jack about her little handcuff adventure with Kate, Jack doesn't even flinch - this is what makes me think that they are already in cahoots

4) "I hate you."

5) She has obviously told him some secret.

Also, it's not like this is the first time that Jack has had some secret plan running without the other 815ers consent. One example would be season 2's finale, when he didn't tell Hurley, Sawyer or Kate that he knew Michael was leading them into a trap.

unforgiven91

05-06-2007, 06:08 PM

@ Fierro

that is a really plausible Idea, and it is in the realm of science

but I think Ben is keeping people on the island for a more selfish reason, since Ben hasnt show himself to be a humanitarian

Holmes

05-06-2007, 06:14 PM

I can't speak for everyone, but this is why I think so:

1) We know from Juliet's flashback that she wants off the island and isn't too happy with Ben.

2) When Ben goes over the plan with her, she looks sort of out of it to the point that Ben asks her if she's alright --- which suggests she's not really into the plan.

3) When they are walking back to the beach and she tells Jack about her little handcuff adventure with Kate, Jack doesn't even flinch - this is what makes me think that they are already in cahoots

4) "I hate you."

5) She has obviously told him some secret.

Also, it's not like this is the first time that Jack has had some secret plan running without the other 815ers consent. One example would be season 2's finale, when he didn't tell Hurley, Sawyer or Kate that he knew Michael was leading them into a trap.

Then why finish that epi with Juliet smiling at Jack but turning away and looking serious, tightening the knot in the rope ?

John Burger

05-06-2007, 09:33 PM

Then why finish that epi with Juliet smiling at Jack but turning away and looking serious, tightening the knot in the rope ?

Because she was doing that for Ben. Its Ben she wants to kill..we already know that from the video tape

But your right in picking up she would have to have told jack AFTER they got to the beach. Whoever said its before is wrong. The scene of them walking home doesnt allow for jack to have known anything until After the whole Claire deception.

So Jack knew nothing until after Claire got sick. Juliet probably explained to Jack sometime after --that she had to go along with Bens plan.

Like I said, this will probably come out when sawyer plays the tape and jack says he already knows because Juliet told him

About Jack being bad. He's not bad..this is just a story arc designed so we would question his motives. They already planted the seed for him being confirmed good when locke said, "the first time I saw jack he was pulling people out of a burning plane..if he is with the others ..he has a good reason."