After this episode Im curious to see what people think of Sawyer considering what he did to Cooper. he's free of his curse, or is he? was he justified or not?

thoughts?

I don't blame him for doing what he did - however, even though he's spent most of his life waiting to do exactly that, I don't think he's going to feel better for it.

I agree with ShapeShifter. Its kind of like when you go into something with such high expectations that you can only end up being disappointed. Sawyer had been waiting for this moment for so long, and had probably gone over it in his head many times. I don't think it will ultimately cure him of any of his "angst." He may feel a bit empty now that the thing that has been driving him for years and years is over and done with. All that energy will need to be refocused. He may feel a bit lost and empty now, strange as it may seem. A major driving force in his life is now gone.

I agree with Sharpshooter. Sometimes Jin and Sawyer can be quite cruel. Do you think Jack will fall in love with Juliet and Jin?

I just feel plain ol sorry for him, and I imagine that any one of us... holding on to that much hate and anguish our entire lives... would react much the same way. Poor poor James.

:crybaby:

No hope for him now.

:sob:

I really wish I could give this show up. They are devastating my characters.

I think the same of him now as I always did.

Justified...I don't know. He was provoked to the extreme. Temporary insanity maybe?

I don't think any differently for him. Actually, perhaps a little more pity. He was still so upset over what happened 20-odd years ago. I thought he may have changed, and would not have killed Cooper. I don't blame him one bit either. I'm glad he threw up afterwards though. In books I've read, whenever a great hero had to kill someone, they threw up.

What do you mean, no hope for him now? He probably wouldn't have killed him, until Cooper ripped up the letter. I mean, come on, how much can one man take? I don't blame him at all. He will have a lot of regret though I think.

I love him more after this episode. I mean, showing him vomit afterwards... I feel so bad for him for having to go through all that.

Also, I'm really pissed at Locke. Really, really pissed.

I was rooting for him to do it. I think I would have thought less of him if he didn't.

I didn't think I was going to want him to do it, but now I'm glad he did. James can finally move on - I think he'll shed that name and related persona for good now. Instead of conning women, he's off to protect the woman he loves and step up to be a leader of his camp, opposing Jack and Juliet who he thinks are in cahoots. I think James reached his breaking point, and I don't blame him for the murder.

I did close my eyes during it though!!!

yeah, STH what do you mean no hope for him now?
I think its more like theres no hope for Locke now. Seriously, he's too much of a wimp to actually do it himself so he tricks someone else into doing it? like that's any better?

Sawyer at least felt bad for it, and Cooper did everything except strangle himself. seriously, how dumb can you be to antagonize someone like that over something you yourself are responsible for. cooper obviously felt no remorse for what he did to either of them.

If I were in his situation and I lived the way he did because of him, I would totally choke him out too. Some people just need killing for all the pain and destruction they cause.

It's the moment Sawyer has been waiting for for most of his life.

I didn't think I was going to want him to do it, but now I'm glad he did. James can finally move on - I think he'll shed that name and related persona for good now. Instead of conning women, he's off to protect the woman he loves and step up to be a leader of his camp, opposing Jack and Juliet who he thinks are in cahoots. I think James reached his breaking point, and I don't blame him for the murder.

I did close my eyes during it though!!!


I totally agree with, Jenny. He had to do it so he could move on and be the man he is really meant to be. A good man. A loving man. A protector.

Was it horrible that he did it? Yes. Was it sad and upsetting? Yes. But he would have never forgiven himself if he hadn't done it. And Cooper deserved what he got it! He was a hateful, horrible man. He ripped up the letter! Killing is a horrible thing to do, and James know that 100%. I truly believe that he will never kill anyone ever again, except in self-defense or to protect Kate or another Lostie.

This part of the James/Sawyer saga is over. But that doesn't mean I think he's going to die. pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease don't die!

I don't blame him for doing what he did - however, even though he's spent most of his life waiting to do exactly that, I don't think he's going to feel better for it.

I agree with you Shapeshifter. I don't think we can ever anticipate what revenge would truly taste like - somehow I think it will never be all that it can be for us to move on.

:crybaby:

No hope for him now.

:sob:

I really wish I could give this show up. They are devastating my characters.

Do you really think that STH?? I was really disappointed in him at first. But then I began to think about both of these men and what Tony Cooper/Tom Sawyer had put them through. It's almost as if they "needed" each other to do this. Locke needed Sawyer to do the "wetwork" because he couldn't. And Sawyer needed Locke to lock him in a room with the one thing he hated most in his life - and get rid of it.

We think that it was a horrible thing for James to do, because I don't think most of us have ever been faced with the type of hurt that can ruin lives. We hoped he would take the high road because that to us would be the "civilized" thing to do. But maybe in this case we are no longer talking civilized - we are talking about the merciful thing.

I don't know... But I thought Josh kicked ROYAL BUTT tonight!!!

I went into this ep not wanting him to do it, but once Cooper ripped up that note, it was on. He didn't care anymore for that poor, broken, orphaned child than he did for his own son. He was evil. Pure and simple. I feel sorry James. He's trying to be a better man, and Locke put him in a horrendous position.

Was it horrible that he did it? Yes. Was it sad and upsetting? Yes. But he would have never forgiven himself if he hadn't done it. And Cooper deserved what he got it! He was a hateful, horrible man. He ripped up the letter! Killing is a horrible thing to do, and James know that 100%. I truly believe that he will never kill anyone ever again, except in self-defense or to protect Kate or another Lostie.Well said. I am not usually one to justify murder, but if anyone on the show has ever deserved it, it was Cooper.

I truly believe that he will never kill anyone ever again, except in self-defense or to protect Kate or another Lostie.



Ita with you Laura. I really didn't think he was going to kill Cooper/Sawyer tonight. Even after James knew it was "Sawyer." I think because he's gone through the transformation he's gone through (thus far; I'm sure he'll keep moving forward), he was thinking having the guy read the letter would be enough. He didn't want to kill again, remembering how it felt the last time. But then when Cooper ripped the letter up...o...m...g. I wanted to kill him! What an [insert bad word here.] Unbelievable. Even when James (it's getting easier to call him that now) said "Mary. Her name was Mary," I don't think he would've killed him. Despite that lechorous look on Cooper's face and how he talked about her like her life was worth nothing. I think James just wanted the guy to read the letter, show even a little remorse, know what he had done to his family, his life.

But now it's done. He can hopefully move on. He deserves some peace in his life.

Cooper was one of the most evil, vile, disgusting men, ever. I'm glad he's dead. I only wish it would've been taken longer and been more excruciating.

I went into this ep not wanting him to do it, but once Cooper ripped up that note, it was on. He didn't care anymore for that poor, broken, orphaned child than he did for his own son. He was evil. Pure and simple. I feel sorry James. He's trying to be a better man, and Locke put him in a horrendous position.
I agree. Sort of like shooting a mad dog. I thought he did a wonderful job tonight of running a huge gamut of emotions from tender playfulness with Kate, then checking out Hurley and Jin (Well alrighty then), and then the rest. The part that concerns me is that he is going back to camp with that tape recording of Juliet to expose her, but I'm not sure that that isn't exactly what Ben engineered.

I agree. Sort of like shooting a mad dog. I thought he did a wonderful job tonight of running a huge gamut of emotions from tender playfulness with Kate, then checking out Hurley and Jin (Well alrighty then), and then the rest. The part that concerns me is that he is going back to camp with that tape recording of Juliet to expose her, but I'm not sure that that isn't exactly what Ben engineered.

nancy - You took the words right out of my brain!! He had to be destroyed.

I think this is going to be a big turning point in his character... honestly, I think this is ultimately what is going to redeem him...

I don't "agree" with what he did, and it might be that he's my favorite character.. that he can literally get away w/murder...

But I do think this is going to cause major guilt on his part... that he'll probably try to deny... but will eventually come out & ultimately cause him to change...

At least.. that's how I hope it goes down.

He probably wouldn't have killed him, until Cooper ripped up the letter. I mean, come on, how much can one man take? I don't blame him at all.


Not to mention that Cooper was taunting him, saying that his Mother was begging him to save her from her miserable life. What child wouldn't take that personally, whether it is true or not. It is bad enough that Cooper destroyed Sawyer's life and his family, but to make light of it. Who wouldn't kill him in that same position. For that matter, what the heck is wrong with Locke?

I was rooting for him to do it. I think I would have thought less of him if he didn't.

Me too! I do think less of Locke. He clearly is a weak, weak man. I'm glad somebody had the stones to do what needed to be done. It's capital punishment island style. And Sawyer is a republican, so he should be able to make peace with that.

I totally agree with, Jenny. He had to do it so he could move on and be the man he is really meant to be. A good man. A loving man. A protector.

Was it horrible that he did it? Yes. Was it sad and upsetting? Yes. But he would have never forgiven himself if he hadn't done it. And Cooper deserved what he got it! He was a hateful, horrible man. He ripped up the letter! Killing is a horrible thing to do, and James know that 100%. I truly believe that he will never kill anyone ever again, except in self-defense or to protect Kate or another Lostie.

This part of the James/Sawyer saga is over. But that doesn't mean I think he's going to die.

I agree with everything you had to say. And as far as death predictions go, I actually think that Locke is in more danger than Sawyer is now.

I went into this ep not wanting him to do it, but once Cooper ripped up that note, it was on. He didn't care anymore for that poor, broken, orphaned child than he did for his own son. He was evil. Pure and simple. I feel sorry James. He's trying to be a better man, and Locke put him in a horrendous position.

Amen!

And for some weird reason, I was really glad to see that Sawyer got so torn up over Locke's mere mention of his parents death. It shows that the writers are staying true to his character. It would have been ridiculous to think that a little love from a wishy-washy woman could completely wipe out all of the pain of his past. What Cooper did to him made him the man that he is today. That anger and pain doesn't negate his inate goodness, anymore than learning to see himself in a better light can negate the pain of his past.

All in all, I am glad that it is resolved. And hopefully we will never see the likes of Anthony Cooper again!

My husband and I felt such pity and compassion for Sawyer. All we could say afterwards was "Poor, poor Sawyer." My stars, what an agonizing situation for poor Sawyer.

I want to cling to the hope that there is some good left in Locke, and that perhaps he is trying to infiltrate the others for the good of the losties. However it appears that he is supremely selfish and looking for demigod status/respect/family and believing the baloney that Ben is feeding him---BAH! Locke made me sick in this episode. :mad: How could he be so cold and calculating to poor Sawyer? He has a black heart!

If anything, I'm beginning to like sawyer MORE than I ever have. I was egging him on to smack Cooper around some.. and as soon as that bats' turd ripped the letter up... forget it.. I was hoping he'd tear him to shreds. On the other hand.. I am losing any liking for Locke fast.

The revenge isn't always as we pictured it aspect reminds me of Edgar Allan Poe's short story "The Cask of Amontillado."

I felt really bad for Sawyer, and now I think I like him more.

Maybe we will see some change in Sawyer...
I mean, John Locke brought him to an old ship in the middle of the jungle
and placed in front of him, the man he considered responsible for his mom's
death.
I would expect some changes in his beliefs.
His mess is cleaned up.
What next?

Who can blame Sawyer for doing what he did, after Cooper said the stuff he did? What a jerk! It's just a bad situation all the way around. I feel sorry for Sawyer now, he's spent so much time and energy into settling this issue that I doubt he'll get as much satisfaction out of it. I do think he'll be able to move forward now though.

After this episode Im curious to see what people think of Sawyer considering what he did to Cooper. he's free of his curse, or is he? was he justified or not?

thoughts?


I think Sawyer has been a big selfish bozo most of his life. But he only needed a nudge to do good for someone else. Take Cassidy. That was a wee nudge. With Locke he was pushed. Locke couldn't kill Cooper and Sawyer didn't want to kill an innocent person again. When Cooper ripped the letter, Sawyer knew.

The Island test the Losties, if they pass.. they will live.

D/

I certainly don't think any less of Sawyer. This was a faceless man who had haunted him for almost 30 years. A man that ruined his life and many others. Sawyer has led a very dark life, but this may have been the darkest moment of all. What a fitting location for the murder to take place as well. In the depths of a slave ship, Sawyer was finally able to free his tortured soul.

This episode didn't change my opinion of Sawyer one bit. He's the likable bad guy, the handsome antihero. I expected him to kill the real Sawyer and he didn't disappoint. It's just truly sad that James Ford was steadfast on his way to becoming just like that filthy excuse for a person.

It was a nice touch when he vomited afterwards though. To actually get his revenge after decades must be massively overwhelming.

I think its more like theres no hope for Locke now. Seriously, he's too much of a wimp to actually do it himself so he tricks someone else into doing it? like that's any better?

Hey now! Locke knew rationally that Cooper should die, for all the evil he had done, not to mention all that he would do if he ever got free. However Locke's compasionate nature makes it impossible for him to just kill someone like that... just like he couldn't kill the fed that infiltrated his hippie commune. That hardly makes him a wimp. It's a better thing for Sawyer anyway. Better to just do it than to fantasize about it every day for the rest of his life, carrying around that letter wherever he went.

Poor dude. What Locke did to Sawyer was cruel and cowardly, surprising him with Cooper like that. But, I do think Sawyer (James) would have been a stronger, healthier person if he had looked that SOB Cooper in the eye and refused to let him dictate one more moment in his life, and walked away. Sawyer lived up to his dad's legacy by allowing Cooper to provoke him to murder. Twice, if you count the poor innocent shrimp guy. It was a very Hamlet kind of thing, where revenge is like a cancer that eats at you and all that. Yoda would not have been happy with Sawyer. Fear leads to anger leads to hate leads to suffering etc etc.

So, is Sawyer a tragic figure? Yes. But did he have a hand in his own mental torment? Yes. Do I think he did the right thing? No. Not at all. Not for a second. Murdering Cooper did not free him from his emmotional baggage...it added another carry on to the load.

Sawyer (James Ford) didn't want to commit another murder and actually I don't think he did kill Cooper. IMO Cooper was going to die from his auto accident and probably unrepented going to hell. The final Cooper act that caused Sawyer to choke him to death was how completely calous Cooper really was. Cooper was pure evil even the Others were afraid of him ( Tom holding the stun gun).

Sawyer getting sick after showed how awful he felt. Locke needed to comit the act and couldn't, as a "thank you to Sawyer" IMO he somehow atoned what Sawyer did to Cooper

My husband and I felt such pity and compassion for Sawyer. All we could say afterwards was "Poor, poor Sawyer." My stars, what an agonizing situation for poor Sawyer.

I want to cling to the hope that there is some good left in Locke, and that perhaps he is trying to infiltrate the others for the good of the losties. However it appears that he is supremely selfish and looking for demigod status/respect/family and believing the baloney that Ben is feeding him---BAH! Locke made me sick in this episode. :mad: How could he be so cold and calculating to poor Sawyer? He has a black heart!

It depends on how we define "good" I guess. He's not betraying the Losties or anyone, so I still see him as good.

Hey now! Locke knew rationally that Cooper should die, for all the evil he had done, not to mention all that he would do if he ever got free. However Locke's compasionate nature makes it impossible for him to just kill someone like that... just like he couldn't kill the fed that infiltrated his hippie commune. That hardly makes him a wimp. It's a better thing for Sawyer anyway. Better to just do it than to fantasize about it every day for the rest of his life, carrying around that letter wherever he went.

That's a good point... it's hard to kill someone, but easier to kill Again after you've done it the first time. It's better for Sawyer to kill Cooper because of that, and Cooper still ends up dead... he needed to die.

It was a nice touch when he vomited afterwards though.

LOLOL!!! I love the way you phrased that.

Just to be clear, I completely agree, it underscored the tender heart James really has within him.

mmkk I come to speak

I did not want him to kill cooper prior to this episode. But my god I WANTEd to kill cooper when he did what he did to him. And Locke..... OOo i'm peeved. but i still really like him. Locke always has a plan, and i have come to learn no matter how insane Locke seems we should trust he has a plan. I think this is a Huge turning point.

and i hope he shakes of the name sawyer. and becomes James. I don't think they will kill James for this. mmm im gunna spoiler this for those who didnt see the preview.

He will go back, hear the recording, be very worried for kate and their likely child, he will probably overthrow jack. Who needs a good A** kicking IMO.

I'm very excited where all this will lead for James and hope to see him become the kinda man he wants to be.

If anything I like James more now, he was so incredible and now i feel extremely compassionate for him and am so crazy excited for next week i can barley contain myself.

james' storyline is complete. he killed sawyer. so hope james dies now.

Sawyer's throwing up afterward would have been more effective if Michael hadn't done the same thing last year (after murders that weren't in any way justified.)

I had hoped the island itself would enact justice on Cooper, because James is going to remember that violent act and how it made him feel for a long time. Still, who could have resisted when that slime tore up the letter that meant so much to James. If Cooper/Sawyer had finished reading it and shut up, I don't think James would have killed him.

I don't know how we're ever supposed to like Locke again after this though.

Cardie

Sawyer is even cooler now.

I agree with ShapeShifter. Its kind of like when you go into something with such high expectations that you can only end up being disappointed. Sawyer had been waiting for this moment for so long, and had probably gone over it in his head many times. I don't think it will ultimately cure him of any of his "angst." He may feel a bit empty now that the thing that has been driving him for years and years is over and done with. All that energy will need to be refocused. He may feel a bit lost and empty now, strange as it may seem. A major driving force in his life is now gone.

I absolutely agree. Finally getting the revenge he's waited so long for will not actually give him what he thought it would.

However, I don't blame him for what he did and really don't think anyone could expect any type of self control on Sawyer's part after what Cooper said and did.

But I don't think that Sawyer will be able to fully shed the false persona that he's developed for himself over the years, it's too fully integrated into him now.

Do I think that this act means that Sawyer is ready to be killed off, I sure hope not, although it is usually what happens to our Losties. Problem resolved=death for Lostie.

ugh im so sick of people saying "Well thats all his story can do so he's going now!" you take sawyer out you take out one third of the interaction between the beach people literally, his relationship with all of those people is one of the things that drives the show.

you could do without jack alot easier (and they have) thsn you can do without sawyer.

yeah, STH what do you mean no hope for him now?
I think its more like theres no hope for Locke now. Seriously, he's too much of a wimp to actually do it himself so he tricks someone else into doing it? like that's any better?

Sawyer at least felt bad for it, and Cooper did everything except strangle himself. seriously, how dumb can you be to antagonize someone like that over something you yourself are responsible for. cooper obviously felt no remorse for what he did to either of them.

If Cooper really believed he was in Hell, then being strangled would hold no fear for him.

ugh im so sick of people saying "Well thats all his story can do so he's going now!" you take sawyer out you take out one third of the interaction between the beach people literally, his relationship with all of those people is one of the things that drives the show.

you could do without jack alot easier (and they have) thsn you can do without sawyer.

Amen sister. There are not many epis where Sawyer is not involved in either Plot A or Plot B. Even then, the writers still grant him his hilarious lines to even the episode out a little, give it some levity. Only he and Hurley are masters at this.

All in all, I am glad that it is resolved. And hopefully we will never see the likes of Anthony Cooper again!

Did anybody else notice when the camera closed in on Cooper's face after being strangled, that you could see his eyelid flutter? Now, normally I would just put that down to a minor production error, but that's what I thought about Mikhail's apparent breathing after being "killed" by the fence. It turns out that he was indeed alive.

I am starting to think when they finally remove the bag from Cooper's dead body, that he won't be dead anymore. I also strongly suspect that Ben has orchestrated every aspect of Locke's actions in this episode.

Cooper was Sawyer's Moby Dick. Be he agent or be he principle... it was something Sawyer had to do.

I won't think less of him. I think that Cooper was set up to be especially horrid, to ensure the audience commiserated with Sawyer.

For me it is what do I think of Locke, now and atm I think he is his fathers son.

Cooper was Sawyer's Moby Dick. Be he agent or be he principle... it was something Sawyer had to do.

I won't think less of him. I think that Cooper was set up to be especially horrid, to ensure the audience commiserated with Sawyer.

Like Sayid once said,"We always have a choice". or "There's always a choice" (don't remember exactly) Nothing can justify murder, not anything! I'm cool with the story because it was perfectly in character, I loved it and I like Sawyer more now. But I didn't want him to do it. We all have our weaknesses and I'm sure God is merciful, but I can't believe how many people are justifying a murder! I hope it's just because this is tv. Even if the victim deserves it, who are you to pass judgement? And I feel that half the blame goes to Locke. He wasn't too chicken to do it himself, he DID do it himself when he locked Sawyer in that room. Locke knew what he was doing. Once again though, this was in character. An amazing performance by the actors, this was very intense!

I was glad for Sawyer finally being able to kill "ther real Sawyer". What I'm wondering, though, is how it will affect him. Lately we've been seeing a bit of a kinder, gentler Sawyer. So will that continue now that his demons can be put to rest? Or will it harden him again?

For Sawyer, the word bittersweet comes to mind. It wasn't until Cooper ripped his letter up that was the straw that broke the camels' back for him. That act in itself was quite disrespectful, throwing Sawyer into a blind rage.

Again, Locke was being Locke, acting in self interest, not wanting to sully his hands, but wanting to take credit. I only hope the island wil judge him in an appropriate manner that I feel is overdue: What goes around, comes around! And that also includes Ben, but in a much bigger way.

I absolutely agree. Finally getting the revenge he's waited so long for will not actually give him what he thought it would.

However, I don't blame him for what he did and really don't think anyone could expect any type of self control on Sawyer's part after what Cooper said and did.

But I don't think that Sawyer will be able to fully shed the false persona that he's developed for himself over the years, it's too fully integrated into him now.

Do I think that this act means that Sawyer is ready to be killed off, I sure hope not, although it is usually what happens to our Losties. Problem resolved=death for Lostie.

I couldn't have said it better. After what Sawyer did, it will not make him feel any better. In fact, it may even make him worst off than before.

As far as the false persona, it will be hard for him to shed the self-image that has defined him for so long.

And I still believe he has a "good heart."

He is an enraged, tormented, murderer. Guilt will eat him alive. Sawyer didn't go into the Brig with murder on his mind, it wasn't premeditated. But his inability to control his own rage allowed him to kill a man who was in shackles, and couldn't defend himself. No one, no matter how bad, should be murdered. Locke is responsible for the pre-meditation part of the murder and is equally responsible.

I thought it was interesting, that in a Sawyer parallel to Cooper, Cooper also used a nickname for Ben, Bugeyes.

Sawyer is dark, and that is the way I like him. May his torment continue to make for interesting stories on the show.

:crybaby:

No hope for him now.

:sob:

I really wish I could give this show up. They are devastating my characters.
I have to agree. I know the characters are supposed to be flawed, but this season it's almost as if the writers set out to systematically destroy the characters they spent two years getting us to relate to.

I can undertstand why Sawyer killed Cooper (and Cooper really seemed determined to keep pushing until he forced Sawyer to kill him), but I was so hoping that Sawyer would overcome his rage and just walk away. Now he's lost any chance he ever had to really be free of the "original Sawyer."

James was pushed to his extreme...and in my view was justified in what he did. Here he finally faced the man who had shaped his life and James reacted.

Locke is and has allways been for Locke and Locke alone. He's likeable at times, but it's still plainly obvious that he is being conned. Ben & Richard worked together to get Locke to kill his father. Locke.....so eager to please and be accepted and included on the magical journey to find his real self....however you want to view it, Locke was pretty guttless and used James to do his dirty work.

Locke in my opinion is more the real murderer in this situation. Locke had been conned too by the same man, yet he was controlled enough to con James into doing his bidding.....

I have to agree. I know the characters are supposed to be flawed, but this season it's almost as if the writers set out to systematically destroy the characters they spent two years getting us to relate to.
By destroying the characters do you mean making them unrelatable or irredeemable? I certainly feel that way about Kate -- can't stand her anymore. But I feel far more sympathy for Sawyer now than I ever have before.

I can undertstand why Sawyer killed Cooper (and Cooper really seemed determined to keep pushing until he forced Sawyer to kill him), but I was so hoping that Sawyer would overcome his rage and just walk away. Now he's lost any chance he ever had to really be free of the "original Sawyer."I agree with you here. What he really wanted was to confront the original Sawyer, make him read the letter, make him see what he had done and admit responsibility. He wanted to see some remorse. But Cooper dismissed him entirely and belittled his pain, and I think Sawyer is worse off now than he was before.

For me it is what do I think of Locke, now and atm I think he is his fathers son.


You nailed that one!!! I used to LOVE Locke...now ... not so much... the man who wanted rid of the man who conned him, using a con to get someone else to do what he couldn't. I felt so bad for James through the whole show (although I've always loved Sawyer).

Think less of Sawyer............nah he did just what I thought he would. Justified? No way in He11. Murder is still murder. Cooper was handcuffed and defenseless. But I still believe this is a VR anyhow. That Cooper is a metaphor. He represents all the mental illness that both men display. Perhaps it is time for the losties "to think outside the box"

I love Locke and still do. Anthony deserved what he got, he was the most dispicable character, we never saw once ounce of anything but pure meanness. I think Locke was brilliant last night! Sawyer is a killer, we know that already. He just got the right guy this time. It doesn't make me see Sawyer any differently, he's been wanting to get his hands on this guy for years and we knew that. Not for a tea party either, he has been out to kill the guy from day one.

I was rooting for him to do it. I think I would have thought less of him if he didn't.

Me too, Sawyer was always going to be the one to kill Cooper, I guess he just didn't imagine it would be after a plane crash on a mysterios island. If Sawyer had found him in any other circumstances he would have killed him.

However Locke's compasionate nature makes it impossible for him to just kill someone like that... just like he couldn't kill the fed that infiltrated his hippie commune. That hardly makes him a wimp.
No. What makes him a wimp is being afraid to stand up in front of all those people and say, "I am not a murderer. I will not kill a man in cold blood. Accept me or no, I will not do this."


I am starting to think when they finally remove the bag from Cooper's dead body, that he won't be dead anymore. I also strongly suspect that Ben has orchestrated every aspect of Locke's actions in this episode.
Now that would be irony. Locke would wind up having to kill Cooper himself after all. But either way, Locke is kidding himself if he thinks he didn't murder Cooper.


Ben & Richard worked together to get Locke to kill his father.
I'm not so sure about this. Maybe there are more Others than Juliet who want to overthrow Ben. Need more information!

I started to post last night but still felt too raw from the scenes and wanted to be a little fresher when I posted on this.

...He may feel a bit empty now that the thing that has been driving him for years and years is over and done with. All that energy will need to be refocused. He may feel a bit lost and empty now, strange as it may seem. A major driving force in his life is now gone.

I do think he will feel lost and empty and will probably close upon himself, at least for a while. If Kate really cared about him, she could help him deal with what's happened but I don't think she will, unfortunately. I think she cares but not enough.


Justified...I don't know. He was provoked to the extreme. Temporary insanity maybe?

Exactly, elf! He kept saying over and over, "I'm not killing him!" But, when faced with the unrepentent, malevolent being that's Cooper/Sawyer, he just snapped. As far as I can tell, that's temporary insanity!

I didn't think I was going to want him to do it, but now I'm glad he did. James can finally move on - I think he'll shed that name and related persona for good now. Instead of conning women, he's off to protect the woman he loves and step up to be a leader of his camp, opposing Jack and Juliet who he thinks are in cahoots. I think James reached his breaking point, and I don't blame him for the murder...

I hope this is the direction they take him in. He'll never be goody-goody but I truly hope he can step up and be the leader the Losties need.

I agree. Sort of like shooting a mad dog. I thought he did a wonderful job tonight of running a huge gamut of emotions from tender playfulness with Kate, then checking out Hurley and Jin (Well alrighty then), and then the rest.

I, too, thought Josh hit the ball way out of the park on this episode! My heart was literally hurting and breaking by the time he choked Cooper. I hope on the trek "home", he can reason out what the heck had just happened to some degree and not beat himself up over it. Also, I wonder if he went back to the letter pieces?

I was so afraid the board was going to be full of "Sawyer's just a dirty murderer" that I was kind of dreading checking it but you guys know I can't stay away. I think Sawyer/James is one of the best characters on television now or ever. It's not so much his looks (although they can be devastatingly fabulous) but it's the layers and layers of good and bad intermingled into this man. One minute you want to bop him on the noggin for being such a jacka** and the next, you want to give him a hug and the next, you want to share stories and a beer with him. I hope the Island gives him a larger purpose soon so that he doesn't obsess over what he's done. Like Locke said, "It needed doing". What will Sawyer's purpose be now? How will he relate to "family" on the beach after going through such a horrendous experience and it's really one he can't share with anyone (not that he would). Will he contemplate the larger question that Cooper pose, "Where are we?" or wonder how are we here if they found a plane with our bodies in it??! There's a lot more for James to do. One of the larger questions in his immediate future may be will he side with Jack or Locke in the anticipated showdown?

Oooh! 400th post! Yea!

I agree with the observations that Cooper really pushed James to the absolute edge and that is why James killed him. And if anyone needed killing it was Cooper. I do not think this "wraps up" Sawyer's story. This is just the beginning of the road to redemption for James Ford and I believe it will be a dark and lonely road.

As for what I think about Locke @#$%^*, Karma will get you John Locke just you wait.

I think a LOT less of Locke now. All my sympathy, all my compassion was snuffed out with Cooper's life. Not that Cooper probably didn't deserve it, but Locke brought together that situation by free will knowing the outcome....HOPING for that exact outcome.

Locke is evil. Smokey cannot be far behind.

See, I thought that while the murder was justified, it was more a moment of weakness on Sawyer's part. I kept thinking, "If he can walk away and let this guy live, he'll finally be over it." I think the murder will be on his mind forever - indeed adding to his emotional baggage - and I think it'll interfere with his relationship with Kate by making him block himself off more.

But what I hope is that he'll get back to the beach, play the tape, and turn into the man we want him to be. And then someone at the end of the next eppy will go, "Sawyer, let me see that..." and he'll interrupt and correct them and say, "Actually, my name is James. James Ford. Call me that." And then we'll have a new leader, b/c as it turns out, the Losties need one.

I thought he did the right thing. Locke was justafied as well as Sawyer. Cooper had to pay and it was long overdue. Sawyer might be the hero now.

I thought he did the right thing. Locke was justafied as well as Sawyer. Cooper had to pay and it was long overdue. Sawyer might be the hero now.

Well, while what Sawyer did might be understandable given what he has gone through, it was morally wrong nonetheless to kill a defenseless man in cold blood. We all have choices and Sawyer chose to follow his anger and hatred of this man rather than to take the path of a hero. What Sawyer did should, and hopefully will, haunt him for sometime.

I figured James was a goner when Locke pointed out that James was making the trek to the Black Rock barefoot.

I was glad for Sawyer finally being able to kill "ther real Sawyer". What I'm wondering, though, is how it will affect him. Lately we've been seeing a bit of a kinder, gentler Sawyer. So will that continue now that his demons can be put to rest? Or will it harden him again?

Ii know Josh has said he hopes Sawyer never loses his edge. I wouldn't want that either. But, for the first few days after his return at least, I hope that Josh will play James somewhat differently. When he returns, I am sure he will have the same sarcastic, snarky remarks as always, and continue with the nicknames (if he's done being grounded from them). But his cocky remarks may not be as quickly delivered and they may, at least temporarily, have less of an edge to them, presumably as he tries to process what he's seen, what he's done. His eyes may convey more sadness, almost a haunted quality, than is usual for his character. Some of that fire in his eyes we've become accustomed to may be, for a time, replaced with more of a hollowness. He may at times appear to be absent and preoccupied, even as he and his fellow losties build momentum to lead a rebellion against their attackers.

Well, while what Sawyer did might be understandable given what he has gone through, it was morally wrong nonetheless to kill a defenseless man in cold blood. We all have choices and Sawyer chose to follow his anger and hatred of this man rather than to take the path of a hero. What Sawyer did should, and hopefully will, haunt him for sometime.

I think I only saw one other person on this board - or any other - use the term "in cold blood" about that killing. There was nothing cold about it. That was provoked and passionate - anything but cool-headed and deliberate. The man in front of him had no remorse for the family tragedy he set in motion. As lostrocks said elsewhere, this is that guy that had torn his childhood to shreds, and when he tore up that letter - a final connection connection to that childhood - that's what made him snap. I don't believe any court of law would find that to be a murder "in cold blood".

None of which removes the fact that James took a human life, something he very much didn't want to do. He's going to have to learn to live with that somehow, and I don't expect him to find it easy at all.

To address the original question, I felt a great deal of sympathy for Sawyer. He didn't engineer events, but that confrontation was heartwrenching and I have no idea how he's going to deal with it. The one thing I'm sure of is that the continuing journey of this complex character will be fascinating to watch.

I dont believe that sawyer would have killed him out right if he had met in different place.. however, cooper came across with no remorse and not even the slighest bit of guilt over his actions, I believe this what gave sawyer "the power" to do what he did.
it wasnt what he did to him in the past, but his lack of remorse, not saying i am sorry..
my feelings say he would not have killed him right out..
I like sawyer because he sticks to who he is.. he is not ashamed. never not liked him. just wouldnt have a thing for him.. but he has good qualities..they are over shadowed with his past..

seeing him get sick show his own remorse over what he did, his guilt and disbelieth that he killled that man so quickly.. ( imo)

Dezdemona, I was just going to say that. I think a lot of people on these boards in general need to look up the definition of "in cold blood". The term refers to planning a murder deliberately with no passion, no emotional tie of any kind. What really bothers me is the crucifying that Kate gets for killing her father (who also deserved it btw). He ruined people's lives and obviously had no remorse about it. How can what Kate did be any worse than what James did?? Maybe it's that people underestimate what hearing and seeing your mother being abused all your life can do to a psyche. Kate did not kill Wayne in cold blood and Sawyer did not kill Cooper in cold blood.

What Cooper did to Locke fits the definition of in cold blood however. It was cold and emotionless.

I agree that I don't think less of Sawyer, I wish he hadn't felt the need to kill Cooper but he was left in a situation that could provoke a person to temporary insanity and I truly don't think he wanted to kill him until he ripped up the letter. I hope he can get past this and I think he will have too much on his mind to dwell on it for now - so that's a good thing. I also thought it was brilliantly acted and showed so much depth to his character. I would like to see him lead the losties who don't trust Jack right now. I don't trust Jack right now either.

What really bothers me is the crucifying that Kate gets for killing her father (who also deserved it btw). He ruined people's lives and obviously had no remorse about it. How can what Kate did be any worse than what James did?? Maybe it's that people underestimate what hearing and seeing your mother being abused all your life can do to a psyche. Kate did not kill Wayne in cold blood and Sawyer did not kill Cooper in cold blood.

Amen! You said exactly what I was thinking, but was having a hard time putting into coherent words. I don't blame Kate, and I don't blame Sawyer, and I don't blame Locke. They only did what they had to do.

Swayer killing Cooper didn't change what I think if him one bit,
I would have been shocked if he hadn't killed him.

He has been planning it his whole life. He has devoted most of his life to finding the man that distroyed his family.

The fact that Coooper was cold and heartless right up to the end. Well if Sawyer hadn't followed threw I would have wondered what was the matter with him.

I was a little shocked to find the man that ruined Sawayers life to be as cold and heartless as a small boy would imagin him to be. The guy had not one redeaming quality about him. Very one dementional.

cooper was a horrible man, who knows how many lives he ruined, I don't like to say it but perhaps he deserved to die. My feelings for sawyer remain the same, deep down he is a good man.

I think I may be the only person on the planet that liked Locke even more after last night, although he was already my favorite character. Locke seems to be the only one who can really filter the truth from the lies when it comes to the others. After the Locke/Richard conversation, I got the feeling that Ben would have been served with what he wanted even if Locke had killed Anthony himself. What if Locke's pureness is what has made him "special". I think if Locke had killed Anthony he may have lost his
"gift". I guess this is a bit off-topic, but my opinion/theory is that Locke has been healed "completely" because he deserved it, after all the suffering that he did, pre island, he never gave himself over to evil, to murder. If he had killed his father himself, Ben would have been able to show his people that this man that they thought was so special did have the self-control to lead the people.
That being said, I think Locke went to Sawyer because it was a win/win situation for the both of them dead. The only difference was, after reading the file, Locke knew that Sawyer wanted to be the one to do it. Why cheat Sawyer out of the gratification of confronting the man face to face. I think Locke saw a chance to give Sawyer the satisfaction he deserved, the satisfaction that Locke himself has never been given the chance to have himself, because as much as he knows that the man deserves it, he can't do it himself. I'm not saying that Locke didn't have in a part in it. He is equally responsible. But I think that it was something that they both knew needed to be done.

I also think that the last exchange between Locke and Sawyer was very telling. Locke gave Sawyer the means to be prepared for the others attack. So I don't think that he is with the others. I think that John was telling the truth when he said that he is on his own path. Richard Alpert is the only other I have ever trusted, and I believe what he is saying about Locke's potential, and I think that they are the only two men on the island who are not distracted by weird 'others', infertility problems, kidnapping babies, and the like, and have their eyes open to unravel the true mystery and power of the island. And I respect John even more for stepping out on his own, to no longer be controlled by Jack, or Ben or anyone else and to follow his own path. Why shouldn't he?

Anyway, sorry for my rambling on about my theory/view. It's just my opinion and I know it includes some speculation on my part. I do think that is going be fun to watch from here on out. As Sawyer once said, its Lord of the Flies time now, and now that he 'cleaned up his mess' from the past, he may be ready to lead the Losties as Ralph, to take on the traitor 'Jack', with Locke as the mystic Simon, alone in the wilderness.
I know alot of folks think that last night's epi marks James for death, but if my LOTF analogy is correct, Locke may be caught in the crossfire.

swyrlvr, you make some good points and I have always liked Locke too - I was thinking bad thoughts about him after last night but maybe it was the right thing to do...tough love.

Because there is no judicial infrastructure on the island, I can give people the benefit of the doubt when they take the law into their own hands. However, I am a little concerned that so many posters seem to think that if someone deserves to die, anyone has the right to kill them. No civilization can exist with a belief in an eye-for-an-eye administered by the codes of private vengeance.

Cardie

I simply have to weigh in here:

This is an issue as old as time itself. Is the taking of someone elses/or something elses life ever justified?

I say yes.

Only the most virtuous of us all could stand and say with certainty that when faced with cruel injustice against a loved one, and the opportunity for revenge, that we would not take it. In that moment... how do you know what would you do?

Should a person like Cooper... who has destroyed countless lives without any sign of remorse... be allowed to live? Who decides?

I'm with Sawyer on this one. I think he was justified under the circumstances. If Cooper had shown one shred of remorse... I might not think so. But since he saw no reason to ask Sawyer for forgiveness, even taunted him by tearing up his letter... the (expletive) deserved it...

Imagine someone coming into your life and taking everything you know and love away from you. Now imagine them taunting you about it... laughing at your sadness over it. And if you can say that you would calmly walk away, forgive them and never think of it again... well, you're a better person than I.

Also.... how 'bout giving it up for Josh for his mad acting skills? He did an absolutely outstanding job last night. Um... yeah... he kicks ***. :)

I don't believe it was an eye-for-an-eye situation with Sawyer - it was clearly temporary insanity. He didn't really want to kill Cooper, but when taunted about his mother and tearing up the letter, he lost all control and any sense of reason.

Ben knew that Locke did want to kill his father - but couldn't - and that Sawyer didn't want to kill Cooper, but would.

I feel for Sawyer - he's a tortured soul... and adore him more than ever.

By destroying the characters do you mean making them unrelatable or irredeemable? I certainly feel that way about Kate -- can't stand her anymore. But I feel far more sympathy for Sawyer now than I ever have before.Unrelatable more than irredeemable. Maybe I really mean unlikeable. This season has left me basically not liking, or not caring about, most of the characters. I do feel sorry for Sawyer, but I'm still disappointed that he didn't go the other way and refuse to kill Cooper. He did try though.

I still believe this is a VR anyhow. That Cooper is a metaphor. He represents all the mental illness that both men display. Perhaps it is time for the losties "to think outside the box"
I had the same impression. Cooper was just to perfect in the way he pushed first Locke's then Sawyer's buttons as if he were trying to force one of them to kill him Very strange.

I love Locke and still do. Anthony deserved what he got, he was the most dispicable character, we never saw once ounce of anything but pure meanness. I think Locke was brilliant last night! Sawyer is a killer, we know that already. He just got the right guy this time. It doesn't make me see Sawyer any differently, he's been wanting to get his hands on this guy for years and we knew that. Not for a tea party either, he has been out to kill the guy from day one.
It's not about whether Cooper deserved to die. It's about Locke setting up Sawyer to kill him. As despicable as Cooper was, Locke is just as despicable. And to think that Locke can stand there and say "I'm not a killer." Disgusting. He's more culpable than Sawyer because Locke planned it all out and used another man's personal tragedy as means to get him to do his dirty work.

No. What makes him[Locke] a wimp is being afraid to stand up in front of all those people and say, "I am not a murderer. I will not kill a man in cold blood. Accept me or no, I will not do this."
At first I thought that was the real test--that if Locke had stood up to Ben and said no, then he would have passed the test.

I think a lot of people on these boards in general need to look up the definition of "in cold blood". The term refers to planning a murder deliberately with no passion, no emotional tie of any kind. What really bothers me is the crucifying that Kate gets for killing her father (who also deserved it btw). He ruined people's lives and obviously had no remorse about it. How can what Kate did be any worse than what James did?? Maybe it's that people underestimate what hearing and seeing your mother being abused all your life can do to a psyche. Kate did not kill Wayne in cold blood and Sawyer did not kill Cooper in cold blood.

What Cooper did to Locke fits the definition of in cold blood however. It was cold and emotionless.
I totally have to disagree with you about Kate killing Wayne. Yes, there was emotion involved and I can undertand her motivation. But she planned it out in advance and took out an insurance policy on the man. In a civilized world you don't get to kill people just because they "deserve to die." Sawyer at least tried not to kill Cooper and in the end did so only when Cooper pushed him into a rage. But the real cold-blooded killer in all this is Locke.

I think I may be the only person on the planet that liked Locke even more after last night....I think Locke went to Sawyer because it was a win/win situation for the both of them dead. The only difference was, after reading the file, Locke knew that Sawyer wanted to be the one to do it. Why cheat Sawyer out of the gratification of confronting the man face to face. I think Locke saw a chance to give Sawyer the satisfaction he deserved, the satisfaction that Locke himself has never been given the chance to have himself, because as much as he knows that the man deserves it, he can't do it himself. I'm not saying that Locke didn't have in a part in it. He is equally responsible....
Sorry I'm not buying that Locke had anyone's interest at heart other than his own. He was plain and simple using Sawyer's childhood tragedy for his own purposes. He's not equally responsible--he's far more responsible.

Unrelatable more than irredeemable. Maybe I really mean unlikeable. This season has left me basically not liking, or not caring about, most of the characters. I do feel sorry for Sawyer, but I'm still disappointed that he didn't go the other way and refuse to kill Cooper. He did try though.

Disappointed he didn't go the other way? He'd been hunting this man ALL HIS LIFE. James gave Cooper a chance to show remorse when he gave him the letter. Cooper showed no remorse. NOT A SHRED. How can you be disappointed in James for doing what he did?

I'm not a violent person. I've never done anything even remotely violent my whole life... but I'll tell you in James' situation... I probably would have choked the (expletive), too. :)

Only the most virtuous of us all could stand and say with certainty that when faced with cruel injustice against a loved one, and the opportunity for revenge, that we would not take it. In that moment... how do you know what would you do?

Should a person like Cooper... who has destroyed countless lives without any sign of remorse... be allowed to live? Who decides?

I'm with Sawyer on this one. I think he was justified under the circumstances. If Cooper had shown one shred of remorse... I might not think so. But since he saw no reason to ask Sawyer for forgiveness, even taunted him by tearing up his letter... the (expletive) deserved it...

Imagine someone coming into your life and taking everything you know and love away from you. Now imagine them taunting you about it... laughing at your sadness over it. And if you can say that you would calmly walk away, forgive them and never think of it again... well, you're a better person than I.

Also.... how 'bout giving it up for Josh for his mad acting skills? He did an absolutely outstanding job last night. Um... yeah... he kicks ***. :)

Excellent post! I keep coming back to the image of him as a little boy standing before his mommy ("I love you too, mommy"). Trusting her, as children trust their mothers, then cowering under the bed in terror as the impossible happens.

And as for his acting...well I keep saying it, and I see it all over this board. I see an Emmy nod. I knew he was a good actor. I didn't realize he was a great actor. I'm more of a fan now of James AND Josh than I was before.

I totally have to disagree with you about Kate killing Wayne. Yes, there was emotion involved and I can undertand her motivation. But she planned it out in advance and took out an insurance policy on the man. In a civilized world you don't get to kill people just because they "deserve to die." Sawyer at least tried not to kill Cooper and in the end did so only when Cooper pushed him into a rage. But the real cold-blooded killer in all this is Locke.

So what about death row?? That exists in our "civilized" world and it's pretty much just that - killing people that deserve to die. The unfortunate fact is that most of the time nothing happens to abusers unless they succeed in killing the person they are abusing. Kate's killing still does not fit the definition of in cold blood and she took out the insurance policy in her mothers name.

Excellent post! I keep coming back to the image of him as a little boy standing before his mommy ("I love you too, mommy"). Trusting her, as children trust their mothers, then cowering under the bed in terror as the impossible happens.

Orestes.

I don't think Kate's killing of her father was 'worse' than Sawyer's killing of Cooper, but I do think it fits the definition of premeditated and cold-blooded murder. It was clear she was no longer living at the house with Wayne and Diane, and therefore was not witnessing any recent abuse that may have occured. She took the time and effort to take out an insurance policy on the house and calculatingly planned her father's death via the destruction of that house. Helped him into his bed, and set off the gas leak, waiting outside until the place exploded. It was absolutely a passionless crime at the time. Yes, there were mitigating circumstances but I doubt her mother's situation would have absolved her of a guilty verdict.

In the episode last night, I felt that Locke was the cold-blooded orchestrater of his father's death too. It was deliberate and premeditated. He knew that using Sawyer's personal tragedy and locking him in a room with him would likely lead to the outcome he desired.

Sawyer didn't want to kill Cooper, but he was set up, pushed, and when Cooper showed no remorse and mocked his tragedy he totally lost it in a fit of rage. What Sawyer did was wrong, and his reaction afterwards showed how awful he felt about what he'd done. I think it will affect him and haunt him quite a bit, regardless of whether Cooper deserved it or not.

I felt extremely sympathetic towards Sawyer for the position he was put into, having to relive his childhood trauma and face the man who'd ruined his life. I wanted Sawyer to not kill him, and my heart broke when he did, but just made me feel for him even more that he succumbed to his pain and rage. If anything it made me very pissed off at Locke for forcing his hand to some extent. I'm very interested to see how he deals with the aftermath, if this event has changed him in any palpable way.

Disappointed he didn't go the other way? He'd been hunting this man ALL HIS LIFE. James gave Cooper a chance to show remorse when he gave him the letter. Cooper showed no remorse. NOT A SHRED. How can you be disappointed in James for doing what he did?

I'm not a violent person. I've never done anything even remotely violent my whole life... but I'll tell you in James' situation... I probably would have choked the (expletive), too. :)
I'm not saying I don't understand it or that I wouldn't have done it myself. But yes, I'm disappointed. It's not about how bad Cooper was, it's about how good Sawyer (James) could have been if he had been able to walk away.

So what about death row?? That exists in our "civilized" world and it's pretty much just that - killing people that deserve to die. The unfortunate fact is that most of the time nothing happens to abusers unless they succeed in killing the person they are abusing. Kate's killing still does not fit the definition of in cold blood and she took out the insurance policy in her mothers name.
Actually, the death penalty doesn't exist in most parts of the "civilized" world, but this isn't the place for that debate. And even where there is capital punishment, the state doesn't allow individuals to kill people simply because they deserve to die.

I know Kate didn't take out the insurance policy for her own financial gain but rather for her mother's benefit. But the fact that she took it out at all showed the amount of advance planning that went into the killing.

I know this this isn't the place to debate Kate's crime, but it was brought up in contrast to Sawyer's killing of Cooper. I still insist that they are fundamentally different (and would be seen so in a trial) because Sawyer killed in a sudden fit of rage.

Anyone else remember Ben saying,

"He is a magnificent man! But he is not a forgiving man. He'll kill me because I failed my mission..."

What do the Others seem to value more than anything? The ability to deceive.
What does Sawyer seem to value more than anything? His ability to deceive.

What makes a man magnificent to another man? Seeing the same qualities in him, and understanding that the man uses those qualities in extraordinary ways.

Oh, and after last night, it's pretty well-demonstrated that Sawyer did not forgive Cooper.

So, is Locke being manipulated into grooming Sawyer? The Brig sure seemed to feel that way. He was already walking barefoot through the jungle. Ring any bells?

BTW: Who is to say that Locke would have released Sawyer from the brig and allowed him to walk away? Sawyer tried demanding over and over again for Locke to let him out. But Locke knew that how cruel and taunting his father could be. He also knew how sensetive Sawyer was about what happened to his family. Locke knew good and well that Sawyer didn't want to kill anyone, and yet he wouldn't let him out until the job was done. He knew that eventually his father would push Sawyer over the edge. Infact even though Locke was weak and a coward about killing his father, had he himself been locked in a room with Cooper long enough, he probably would have done the same thing eventually.

Sure Sawyer lost control. But he also didn't have the freedom of walking away form the situation.

. Locke seems to be the only one who can really filter the truth from the lies when it comes to the others. .


Really? Because I thought Locke was manipulated from start to finish in last night's episode - and any time Ben talks to him. Ben knows exactly which of Locke's buttons to push.

Sure Sawyer lost control. But he also didn't have the freedom of walking away form the situation.

Excellent point!!! I never thought of it from that angle. Makes me feel even more sympathetic towards Saw-I mean James' predicament.

Actually, the death penalty doesn't exist in most parts of the "civilized" world, but this isn't the place for that debate. And even where there is capital punishment, the state doesn't allow individuals to kill people simply because they deserve to die.

But it does exist and putting someone in prison for the rest of their life is essentially taking their life away. That's the point of prison. People are punished for their crimes. If people on death row are not there because they deserve to die then how did they get there. People make the decision that this person is no longer worthy of living and on to death row they go. I realize that it's more than one person that makes this decision but again the problem with abusers is they rarely get to be judged by their peers unless they kill someone.

I don't believe it was killing in cold blood for reasons I've stated a million times in a million threads. Yes, it was pre-meditated and yes she did take out an insurance policy in her mothers name. I suggest that people go and research the effect that abusers have on a childs psyche. Just because Kate was no longer living with the man doesn't mean it's over and he's out of her life. She has to continue to watch her mother suffer. Her mother should have done more to protect her daughter in the first place and then after should have realized why Kate did what she did.

But I digress...I only bring this up because everyone is on the bandwagon about James killing Cooper and it being totally understandable. They were orchestrated differently but they weren't all that different. James searched for this man his entire life with the intent of killing him. If his case ever went to court, they could still find it pre-meditated technically - especially with that letter in his pocket and the shrimp selling guy dead.

As I said I don't blame James for doing what he did but I don't blame Kate either.

I think I may be the only person on the planet that liked Locke even more after last night, although he was already my favorite character. Locke seems to be the only one who can really filter the truth from the lies when it comes to the others. After the Locke/Richard conversation, I got the feeling that Ben would have been served with what he wanted even if Locke had killed Anthony himself. What if Locke's pureness is what has made him "special". I think if Locke had killed Anthony he may have lost his
"gift". I guess this is a bit off-topic, but my opinion/theory is that Locke has been healed "completely" because he deserved it, after all the suffering that he did, pre island, he never gave himself over to evil, to murder. If he had killed his father himself, Ben would have been able to show his people that this man that they thought was so special did have the self-control to lead the people.
That being said, I think Locke went to Sawyer because it was a win/win situation for the both of them dead. The only difference was, after reading the file, Locke knew that Sawyer wanted to be the one to do it. Why cheat Sawyer out of the gratification of confronting the man face to face. I think Locke saw a chance to give Sawyer the satisfaction he deserved, the satisfaction that Locke himself has never been given the chance to have himself, because as much as he knows that the man deserves it, he can't do it himself. I'm not saying that Locke didn't have in a part in it. He is equally responsible. But I think that it was something that they both knew needed to be done.

I also think that the last exchange between Locke and Sawyer was very telling. Locke gave Sawyer the means to be prepared for the others attack. So I don't think that he is with the others. I think that John was telling the truth when he said that he is on his own path. Richard Alpert is the only other I have ever trusted, and I believe what he is saying about Locke's potential, and I think that they are the only two men on the island who are not distracted by weird 'others', infertility problems, kidnapping babies, and the like, and have their eyes open to unravel the true mystery and power of the island. And I respect John even more for stepping out on his own, to no longer be controlled by Jack, or Ben or anyone else and to follow his own path. Why shouldn't he?



I agree completely.



Sorry I'm not buying that Locke had anyone's interest at heart other than his own. He was plain and simple using Sawyer's childhood tragedy for his own purposes. He's not equally responsible--he's far more responsible.


Sawyer didn't want to kill Cooper, but he was set up, pushed, and when Cooper showed no remorse and mocked his tragedy he totally lost it in a fit of rage.

Those are cop-outs for Sawyer... he had a choice, Locke gave him one. He didn't force Sawyer to do anything. Sawyer could have acted as a responsible adult and seen how pathetic Cooper was and let him be because he's not worth it. He had that choice.

Yes, Locke knew that he would Most Likely kill Cooper... but he at no point forced Sawyer to do it, so the blame is pretty equal on both sides. Yes, Locke did it because he wanted his father dead, but he also did it to help James... killed two birds with one stone.

If people on death row are not there because they deserve to die then how did they get there.


Surely you are aware that this is a very hot question now that DNA evidence is exonerating an alarming proportion of Death Row inmates. I believe Illinois was the first to halt all executions based on the new evidence.

:crybaby:

No hope for him now.

:sob:

I really wish I could give this show up. They are devastating my characters.

You know, I just don't get your point of view. What about last night was out of character for Sawyer? His whole life and everything that ever happend on the show lead up to that single moment. Please explain.

Those are cop-outs for Sawyer... he had a choice, Locke gave him one. He didn't force Sawyer to do anything. Sawyer could have acted as a responsible adult and seen how pathetic Cooper was and let him be because he's not worth it. He had that choice.

Yes, Locke knew that he would Most Likely kill Cooper... but he at no point forced Sawyer to do it, so the blame is pretty equal on both sides. Yes, Locke did it because he wanted his father dead, but he also did it to help James... killed two birds with one stone.

Help James? To commit murder??? I am sorry but I cannot see this as an act of benevolence towards James. By making him relive his deepest most painful memories of his childhood and urging him to kill a man? Locke may have rationalized it that way, and felt a bond with Sawyer but still, let;s be honest, Locke needed Cooper dead to be free of him himself, AND to be givien membership into the Other's club. His actions were mostly self-serving. Whether or not the murder of the real Sawyer will eventually free James of his past and enable him to move on, or whether it will take him on a more self-destructive path remains to be seen.

I'm not letting Sawyer off the hook BTW. I actually voted that both he and Locke are responsible. And I agree he had a choice to a degree. But you are forgetting the circumstances. He was locked in a room. He couldn't get away. And he was led there under false pretences and essentially forced to confront the one man from his past who in his mind had killed his parents and ruined his life completely. Even so he resisted. I think if Cooper had shown one ounce of humanity or remorse for his actions things might have turned out differently. Yes, I was disappointed that in that split second of grief and rage at Cooper's antagonism he snapped and killed him, but I certainly can understand why he made the wrong choice, and pity him for it.

That said, do you honestly think that had Sawyer continued to resist attacking the taunting Cooper and told Locke through the door that he still wasn't going to kill him, that Locke would have let him out?

I just dont see Locke as pure.

He as far as he knows Murdered Patchy " pretty cold about it as well"

He manipulated & therfore participated in this murder.

It would be like saying the user is worse then the pusher & the pusher is innocent/pure/good...

What Sawyer did was wrong.But he was not rational imo. It does not make it right or justified but understandable.

After the "mistake murder" under different circumstances I do not believe Sawyer would have killed him.

I think he was justified in his actions.
I just felt sorry for him and still do. Even if his life goal had been to get revenge on the man that was responsible for his parents' deaths, having those experiences and emotions drudged up and brought right before your eyes is a pretty terrible thing. Especially in the callous self-serving way that Locke did it.
Sure he got his revenge, but as has been noted in many a story before, it doesn't just solve everything and make it go away.

Help James? To commit murder??? I am sorry but I cannot see this as an act of benevolence towards James.

James spent his entire life looking for Cooper. Locke delivered him on a platter to him. Whether we agree with the killing or not let's not confuse the fact that Locke gave James the very thing that he has wanted for his entire life.

I think if Cooper had shown one ounce of humanity or remorse for his actions things might have turned out differently.

I agree completely. Sawyer hesitated a Lot.

That said, do you honestly think that had Sawyer continued to resist attacking the taunting Cooper and told Locke through the door that he still wasn't going to kill him, that Locke would have let him out?

I'm absolutely certain of it. Locke couldn't kill his father with a knife, nor could he let him starve to death in the brig. And Nothing that we've seen from Locke indicates that he'd starve an innocent man to death (James). Locke would have let them out.

I have this horrible feeling that Sawyers days are numbered! I really like the character of Sawyer and think he adds alot to the show but now that his back story and everything seems to have come full circle and is now resolved I have this horrible feeling that his characted will be sacrificed (ALA Shannon..ALA Boone...) to further the storylines of other characters...probably Kate! SAD! :frown:

I'm absolutely certain of it. Locke couldn't kill his father with a knife, nor could he let him starve to death in the brig. And Nothing that we've seen from Locke indicates that he'd starve an innocent man to death (James). Locke would have let them out.

I thought for a while that maybe if Sawyer refused to kill him, Locke would've threatened to blow the dynamite in the ship and kill all of them. Sure he doesn't want to kill someone in cold blood, but blowing everything to smithereens is a bit more indirect.

I thought for a while that maybe if Sawyer refused to kill him, Locke would've threatened to blow the dynamite in the ship and kill all of them. Sure he doesn't want to kill someone in cold blood, but blowing everything to smithereens is a bit more indirect.

If Locke was willing to do that and didn't want to help James, then there was no need to involve James in the first place.

I have to agree. I know the characters are supposed to be flawed, but this season it's almost as if the writers set out to systematically destroy the characters they spent two years getting us to relate to.

I can undertstand why Sawyer killed Cooper (and Cooper really seemed determined to keep pushing until he forced Sawyer to kill him), but I was so hoping that Sawyer would overcome his rage and just walk away. Now he's lost any chance he ever had to really be free of the "original Sawyer."

I've read through over 100 posts here and the overwhelming majority seem to support Sawyer's act of killing Cooper. I realize that yes, this is a TV show, but I'm surprised at the consensus.
One of the overriding themes I've noticed in Lost is redemption. That usually suggests a higher honor or higher moral code than the base impusles of revenge.
Cooper absolutely goaded Sawyer by insulting his mother, and Locke absolutely set it up by bringing Sawyer there and locking him in. But I was hoping Sawyer would not kill Cooper and yet be able to let go of his vendetta by confronting the real Sawyer. The power of forgiveness, I believe, is greater than the power of vengeance although it does not always play out that way. I won't even bring major religious tenets on forgiveness into the discussion. I think Sawyer would have found redemption by confronting the original Sawyer but not killing him. I wouldn't say that Sawyer was capable of fully forgiving Cooper for what he had done, but backing away from murder would have furthered his redemption. The act of murder, no matter how heinous the victim, will not.

But I don't think that Sawyer will be relieved of his burden by this act, like andromache said above. He is not going to feel better or feel free, even though he had waited all his life for this moment.

I think Sawyer would have found redemption by confronting the original Sawyer but not killing him. I wouldn't say that Sawyer was capable of fulling forgiving Cooper for what he had done, but backing away from murder would have furthered his redemption. The act of murder, no matter how heinous the victim, will not.

But I don't think that Sawyer will be relieved of his burden by this act, like andromache said above. He is not going to feel better or feel free, even though he had waited all his life for this moment.
STH :hug: workingmom!

(I'm still :crybaby:, BTW.)

I've read through over 100 posts here and the overwhelming majority seem to support Sawyer's act of killing Cooper. I realize that yes, this is a TV show, but I'm surprised at the consensus.
One of the overriding themes I've noticed in Lost is redemption. That usually suggests a higher honor or higher moral code than the base impusles of revenge.
Cooper absolutely goaded Sawyer by insulting his mother, and Locke absolutely set it up by bringing Sawyer there and locking him in. But I was hoping Sawyer would not kill Cooper and yet be able to let go of his vendetta by confronting the real Sawyer. The power of forgiveness, I believe, is greater than the power of vengeance although it does not always play out that way. I won't even bring major religious tenets on forgiveness into the discussion. I think Sawyer would have found redemption by confronting the original Sawyer but not killing him. I wouldn't say that Sawyer was capable of fulling forgiving Cooper for what he had done, but backing away from murder would have furthered his redemption. The act of murder, no matter how heinous the victim, will not.

But I don't think that Sawyer will be relieved of his burden by this act, like andromache said above. He is not going to feel better or feel free, even though he had waited all his life for this moment.

I agree completely... forgiving Cooper would have went a longer way than killing him.

Only a saint could forgive someone who not only showed no remorse for their terrible actions, but who actually seemed to take pleasure in the further infliction of pain upon an already suffering victim.

I think that it was very evident that Sawyer was trying to contain his anger. He did succumb to his rage, however he clearly took no pleasure in the killing.

And Cooper was clearly the pure definition of a sociopath. Locke was right when he said that he had it coming to him. However, it was very wrong the way that Locke forced Sawyer into the whole situation. Sawyer was very clear in his insistence that he didn't want to kill anyone. He trusted Locke and Locke used the pain of Sawyer's devastating childhood trauma for his own selfish gain. Sawyer was just a pawn. Locke was the murder, coward though he was!

First I really enjoy Locke and Sawyer, but let us consider a few things:

1. Sawyer is a murderer ... remember his trip down under?
2. Locke was being asked to kill his father ... how many people could do that?
3. What about Locke thinking of this as justice and allowing Sawyer a
way to repent for his actions in Australia.
4. On a lighter side - Notice the killing took place on a ship...Locke was the captain and had the authority under maritime law and as such left the fate of Cooper in Sawyer's hands.

I still like Sawyer. it wasn't easy for him to do what he did. In fact the inner struggle was obvious. The old Sawyer wouldn't have thought twice about killing Cooper. So thats where we see the change. Cooper was pushing Sawyer to the limit, he just kept on talking about what he did without remorse, Sawyer did what he did in an emotional rage. he even got sick about it afterwards he wasn't happy about it at all. I was satisfied with the scene. And it is just a tv show. I didn't feel sorry for Cooper one bit. like Locke said "he had it coming"

I think what Sawyer did was wrong, and I do think it is going to screw him up psychologically, but I dont think he is beyond redemtion still. He was kind of forced into what he did, and it didn't seem like locke was going to let him out of that room UNTIL he killed cooper.

but on another note: we have seen time and time again that Sawyer has ALOT of forgivness in him. He forgave Sayid for torturing him in a very short time, without even punching or hitting sayid when he had the clear chance to. He showed forgivness in episode 16 with the boar. he Showed forgivness to Jack who had a big hand in Sawyer's torture. He showed forgivness to Kate as recently as last week for using his body to have sex with Jack. The man has forgiven alot of people for using him in alot of ways, and maybe that's because he feels considering what he has done in his life, he deserves the abuse:

but what cooper did to him. when sawyer was 8 years old, indirectly murdering his family sending him down the path for a very hard life, sawyer definitely did NOT deserve that, and he knows that. at that point in his life, he did NOT deserve anything to happen to him along those lines. and sawyer knows that none of the people he himself has conned or abused deserved it either. and while sawyer is responsible for his own actions, and he knows this which is why he feels he deserves punishment on so many different levels, he knows that if cooper hadnt done what he had done, then sawyer wouldnt have ended up the person he became and hurt all those other people. so cooper is indirectly responsible for ALOT more than just sawyer's parents.

so here he is, face to face with the one guy who in sawyer's mind wrongly abused him. sawyer had concluded he wasnt going to kill anyone, and clearly did not want to kill him either.he gave him the letter, wanted him to read it so he knew what he'd done. if cooper had not even shown remorse, but had just finished the god damn letter, that would have been enough, but he had to rip up the one constant thing in sawyers life over the past 30 years. that letter was the one thing he held onto that reminded him of his real childhood self, and cooper tore it up without reading it, sawyer snapped, theres only so much abuse mentally or physically one guy can take (and sawyer has taken more on island than anyone else has) and so he was at the end of his rope and gave into it. no one can say cooper didnt have it coming, or didnt even ask for it, and no one can say what sawyer did was right. but it was understandable. and he was not a cold blooded killer either. cold blooded killer does not feel any remorse, and would do it again in the blink of an eye. sawyer clearly didnt want to, and was so sick to his stomach afterwards he threw up. and this is going to be on his mind and haunting him for a long time to come.
does any of this make him smokey material? i dont think so. at all. eko didnt feel sorry for anything he did in the end. he blamed it on everything else. sawyer has and always had blamed EVERYTHING on himself. and wanted people to hate him for it. now he's going to hate himself for his crime, even moreso. that's punishment enough, and just enough. but he was manipulated into it on so many levels, and he will be able to find redemption again, in soemthing else. though im positive it will result in his own life lost, probably saving someone else's. but not anytime soon.

Only a saint could forgive someone who not only showed no remorse for their terrible actions, but who actually seemed to take pleasure in the further infliction of pain upon an already suffering victim.


Or a person who, upon seeing them behave that childish, sees them for the pathetic person they are and realizes that the worse punishment would be to force them to keep living their pathetic life. Sawyer could have taken that road.

And Cooper was clearly the pure definition of a sociopath. Locke was right when he said that he had it coming to him.

I agree completely.

However, it was very wrong the way that Locke forced Sawyer into the whole situation.

He forced the confrontation, not the murder. And all of this ignores the fact that Sawyer Wanted to confront that man. He'd wanted it his entire life. Locke didn't do anything that Sawyer wouldn't have wanted him to.

Excellent post, Prince!

He forced the confrontation, not the murder.

I disagree. The whole purpose of him bringing James to the ship, then locking him in the brig, was to force the murder. That was his intention. He knew he couldn't go back to the Others, thus discover his destiny on the Island (or so he believes) without the body of his father on his back. He knew he was not capable of carrying out the murder himself. He was prepared to wait outside until his goal was accomplished, whittling his knife or whatever the he!! it was, knowing that Cooper would be rubbing salt in James' wound, and provoking him to lose control. We don't know how long James was in there with that monster before it came out who he was. This event needed to be compressed to fit into a one-hour show. What Locke did was to torture an already tortured soul. Like Lostnthesoutheast said, he "used the pain of Sawyer's devastating childhood trauma for his own selfish gain." What about Locke's encouraging James to go by his real name, ie., try to move beyond whatever it was that had caused him enough pain to take an alias. Any emotional growth (something the sanctimonious Locke urged his fellow castaways to seek) James had achieved in recent weeks was decimated by Locke's actions, for the sole purpose of furthering Locke's own personal journey.

James wrote that letter as a child. It didn't start out as a child's plan to murder another person. It started out as just wanting "Mr. Sawyer" to understand the pain and damage he caused. Can you imagine how that desire to extract an explanation or an apology grew into rage, a rage which has continued to intensify all these 28 some years? It had become an obsession, arguably to the point of being a mental illness. Everything he did as a young adult, up until now was advancing towards exacting revenge. It was the only thing he imagined would bring him some semblence of peace. Since the crash, he had slowly begun to grow and change, and particularly in the last few weeks, that goal of exacting revenge seemed to begin to recede. But he hadn't recovered entirely. He was still vulnerable. When I hear people who say things like he should have resisted his urge to murder Cooper, what I visualize is James locked in there like a caged animal, pacing around, trying to somehow deflect Cooper's taunts and provocations (as Locke knew he would dish out), trying to contain the rage that has been his only true companian for the last several decades.

Lostnthesoutheast is right: only a saint could've avoided losing control in that particular situation, and how many of you saying he should've "done the right thing" are saints?

I was rooting for him to do it. I think I would have thought less of him if he didn't.
I know what you mean. If he hadn't of done it, it wouldn't have seemed true to his character, especially after the way Cooper goaded him.

its easy to do tell people to do the right thing when you're talking about it and judging them from afar without experiencing what theyve experienced. as someone who knows a great deal about psychology, i can tell you that anyone here, without exception would have done what sawyer did if the right circumstances and right situations had brought it about.

people like to think "well in that situation i would make the right choice" that when it comes down to it, they have the decision, the truth is they dont. why? because humans aren't perfect. reason tells us whats right and wrong, but our feelings tell us things much differently, and feelings are feelings, instinct,s and not always right. however anyone who doesnt understand that we run our lives by our instincts way more than our reason, doesnt understand humanity at all.

anyone, can be conditioned in a way that their feelings and instincts yearn for something that their reason knows is not right. but events can cause the feelings to intensify, and eventually people's thoughts are corrupted by feelings. people dont realize about half of the thoughts they come into with "reason" are actually justifications based on conflicting feelings with logic. aka, someone justifies gettting drunk once in a blue moon, to getting drunk every weekend, to getting drunk anytime they want as long as they're not driving, and eventually that thought becomes reality in their mind and they believe it, even though that thought was developed from the feeling and need to drink trying to beat out the reason that says "drinking is kinda pointless" (and for all you alchohol lovers, you can easily switch drinking with weed or any other drug if you wanna see my point better)

humans are not as strong willed as they think they are, and no one is above the conditioning factor. anyone can be made to do anything in the right or wrong scenario. it's the truth, and the sooner people accept how weak they are, the sooner humanity will move foward in the sense they will know not to expose themselves to that which presents conflicts they cannot overcome.
(why do you think people screw up so bad in college and do things they regret for the rest of their lives?)

i can't help thinking that sawyer was moving on from all that though. he was building relationships with people and becoming accepted into the group and starting to drop 30 odd years of defences.

through locke's weakness sawyer has had the whole past dredged up and now has blood on his hands, just because his 'file' had him down as commiting a murder, doesn't mean he's a natural born killer.

Or a person who, upon seeing them behave that childish, sees them for the pathetic person they are and realizes that the worse punishment would be to force them to keep living their pathetic life. Sawyer could have taken that road.

How many people could have done that? Especially when they are an emotional wreck from being played by someone you trust?






He forced the confrontation, not the murder. And all of this ignores the fact that Sawyer Wanted to confront that man. He'd wanted it his entire life. Locke didn't do anything that Sawyer wouldn't have wanted him to.

Sawyer was the weapon Locke used to kill his father.

I've read through over 100 posts here and the overwhelming majority seem to support Sawyer's act of killing Cooper. I realize that yes, this is a TV show, but I'm surprised at the consensus.
One of the overriding themes I've noticed in Lost is redemption. That usually suggests a higher honor or higher moral code than the base impusles of revenge.
Cooper absolutely goaded Sawyer by insulting his mother, and Locke absolutely set it up by bringing Sawyer there and locking him in. But I was hoping Sawyer would not kill Cooper and yet be able to let go of his vendetta by confronting the real Sawyer. The power of forgiveness, I believe, is greater than the power of vengeance although it does not always play out that way. I won't even bring major religious tenets on forgiveness into the discussion. I think Sawyer would have found redemption by confronting the original Sawyer but not killing him. I wouldn't say that Sawyer was capable of fully forgiving Cooper for what he had done, but backing away from murder would have furthered his redemption. The act of murder, no matter how heinous the victim, will not.

But I don't think that Sawyer will be relieved of his burden by this act, like andromache said above. He is not going to feel better or feel free, even though he had waited all his life for this moment.


:shesaid:

Excellent post workingmom.

I too am somewhat worried about an online crowd that is so willing to accept murder (in any form - for any reason) as justified. Perhaps, because of Ben and John's duplicity in the events, what Sawyer did could be considered "manslaughter". No intent, but the result is that a person lost their life for his direct actions. :eek2: But where has Sawyer's soul been in regard to the "real Sawyer" all these years? He wanted him dead. Sawyer will have a truly rocky dark path to crawl up if he is to find forgiveness for himself, and be able to live life without feeling he too is permanently in a Hell of his own making.

The darker tormented Sawyer journey is much more interesting than the happy-go-lucky Sawyer journey. Bad news sells, good news doesn't. TPTB are ensuring that the character of Sawyer doesn't get boring too quickly.

Hopefully, most of us are not really contemplating that murder is acceptable. That doesn't seem to be either a truthful or moral position in real life, but I get that people can see that as a truism for a televison character and show.

shoegirl

Because there is no judicial infrastructure on the island, I can give people the benefit of the doubt when they take the law into their own hands. However, I am a little concerned that so many posters seem to think that if someone deserves to die, anyone has the right to kill them. No civilization can exist with a belief in an eye-for-an-eye administered by the codes of private vengeance.

Cardie Thanks for that post, I agree completely! :)

I've read through over 100 posts here and the overwhelming majority seem to support Sawyer's act of killing Cooper. I realize that yes, this is a TV show, but I'm surprised at the consensus.
One of the overriding themes I've noticed in Lost is redemption. That usually suggests a higher honor or higher moral code than the base impusles of revenge.
Cooper absolutely goaded Sawyer by insulting his mother, and Locke absolutely set it up by bringing Sawyer there and locking him in. But I was hoping Sawyer would not kill Cooper and yet be able to let go of his vendetta by confronting the real Sawyer. The power of forgiveness, I believe, is greater than the power of vengeance although it does not always play out that way. I won't even bring major religious tenets on forgiveness into the discussion. I think Sawyer would have found redemption by confronting the original Sawyer but not killing him. I wouldn't say that Sawyer was capable of fully forgiving Cooper for what he had done, but backing away from murder would have furthered his redemption. The act of murder, no matter how heinous the victim, will not.

But I don't think that Sawyer will be relieved of his burden by this act, like andromache said above. He is not going to feel better or feel free, even though he had waited all his life for this moment. Exactly, mom :) I'm sure Sawyer won't just come back to camp and feel free, relieved and happy, on the contrary, I guess he will have a lot of trouble with what he did.

I too am somewhat worried about an online crowd that is so willing to accept murder (in any form - for any reason) as justified. Perhaps, because of Ben and John's duplicity in the events, what Sawyer did could be considered "manslaughter". No intent, but the result is that a person lost their life for his direct actions. :eek2: But where has Sawyer's soul been in regard to the "real Sawyer" all these years? He wanted him dead. Sawyer will have a truly rocky dark path to crawl up if he is to find forgiveness for himself, and be able to live life without feeling he too is permanently in a Hell of his own making. :shesaid:

Sawyer was the weapon Locke used to kill his father.

Nicely put. I agree with that 100%.

:shesaid: I too am somewhat worried about an online crowd that is so willing to accept murder (in any form - for any reason) as justified. Perhaps, because of Ben and John's duplicity in the events, what Sawyer did could be considered "manslaughter". No intent, but the result is that a person lost their life for his direct actions. :eek2: But where has Sawyer's soul been in regard to the "real Sawyer" all these years? He wanted him dead. Sawyer will have a truly rocky dark path to crawl up if he is to find forgiveness for himself, and be able to live life without feeling he too is permanently in a Hell of his own making.
<snip>
Hopefully, most of us are not really contemplating that murder is acceptable. That doesn't seem to be either a truthful or moral position in real life, but I get that people can see that as a truism for a televison character and show.
shoegirl

its easy to do tell people to do the right thing when you're talking about it and judging them from afar without experiencing what theyve experienced. as someone who knows a great deal about psychology, i can tell you that anyone here, without exception would have done what sawyer did if the right circumstances and right situations had brought it about.

people like to think "well in that situation i would make the right choice" that when it comes down to it, they have the decision, the truth is they dont. why? because humans aren't perfect. reason tells us whats right and wrong, but our feelings tell us things much differently, and feelings are feelings, instinct,s and not always right. however anyone who doesnt understand that we run our lives by our instincts way more than our reason, doesnt understand humanity at all.

I have to agree with Princeex86 here... I would not be so concerned for the online community. To say Sawyer was justified in killing Cooper speaks only to his particular situation - not to killing in general. Is it ever ok to take another persons life? Some say never, I think it depends. Is it ok to kill in the context of war? Was it ok for Juliet to kill Pickett? Had she not done that, someone else would have died.

STH :hug: workingmom!

(I'm still :crybaby:, BTW.)

Yes. We get that, but not why. All you've said is that TPTB are wrecking "your" characters. What I'm trying to understand from you is how you think what Sawyer did is out of line with what we know about his character. Emoticons don't quite provide the explanation I'm looking for here.

STH :hug: workingmom!

(I'm still :crybaby:, BTW.)
Right back atcha, STH! :)
I think what Sawyer did was wrong, and I do think it is going to screw him up psychologically, but I dont think he is beyond redemtion still. He was kind of forced into what he did, and it didn't seem like locke was going to let him out of that room UNTIL he killed cooper.

but on another note: we have seen time and time again that Sawyer has ALOT of forgivness in him. He forgave Sayid for torturing him in a very short time, without even punching or hitting sayid when he had the clear chance to. He showed forgivness in episode 16 with the boar. he Showed forgivness to Jack who had a big hand in Sawyer's torture. He showed forgivness to Kate as recently as last week for using his body to have sex with Jack. The man has forgiven alot of people for using him in alot of ways, and maybe that's because he feels considering what he has done in his life, he deserves the abuse: Really good point about Sawyer. He has shown the ability to accept and forgive things people have done to him (lol, I hadn't heard the recent sex escapades put quite that way). And I don't think all of that was out of his immense self-loathing--the last psychological effect of Cooper's actions to that boy:
but what cooper did to him. when sawyer was 8 years old, indirectly murdering his family sending him down the path for a very hard life, sawyer definitely did NOT deserve that, and he knows that. at that point in his life, he did NOT deserve anything to happen to him along those lines. and sawyer knows that none of the people he himself has conned or abused deserved it either. and while sawyer is responsible for his own actions, and he knows this which is why he feels he deserves punishment on so many different levels, he knows that if cooper hadnt done what he had done, then sawyer wouldnt have ended up the person he became and hurt all those other people. so cooper is indirectly responsible for ALOT more than just sawyer's parents.

so here he is, face to face with the one guy who in sawyer's mind wrongly abused him. sawyer had concluded he wasnt going to kill anyone, and clearly did not want to kill him either.he gave him the letter, wanted him to read it so he knew what he'd done. if cooper had not even shown remorse, but had just finished the consarn letter, that would have been enough, but he had to rip up the one constant thing in sawyers life over the past 30 years. that letter was the one thing he held onto that reminded him of his real childhood self, and cooper tore it up without reading it, sawyer snapped, theres only so much abuse mentally or physically one guy can take (and sawyer has taken more on island than anyone else has) and so he was at the end of his rope and gave into it. no one can say cooper didnt have it coming, or didnt even ask for it, and no one can say what sawyer did was right. but it was understandable. and he was not a cold blooded killer either. cold blooded killer does not feel any remorse, and would do it again in the blink of an eye. sawyer clearly didnt want to, and was so sick to his stomach afterwards he threw up. and this is going to be on his mind and haunting him for a long time to come.
does any of this make him smokey material? i dont think so. at all. eko didnt feel sorry for anything he did in the end. he blamed it on everything else. sawyer has and always had blamed EVERYTHING on himself. and wanted people to hate him for it. now he's going to hate himself for his crime, even moreso. that's punishment enough, and just enough. but he was manipulated into it on so many levels, and he will be able to find redemption again, in soemthing else. though im positive it will result in his own life lost, probably saving someone else's. but not anytime soon.

Very thoughtful post, Princeex86. I don't think Sawyer intended to kill Cooper when he first found out who he was. The part I bolded really showed that he wanted to read him the letter and make him see what he had done to the boy James, the lives he had ruined. If Cooper had reacted differently, I think things might have gone differently and there might have been the chance for Sawyer to walk away without killing him and thus be closer to redemption. But the writers didn't take that road. Cooper goaded him by his indifference to the family tragedy, by dismissing his letter and finally by insulting his mother. It would be hard for anyone not to strike out at that point. I just wish the writers had taken a different road with all this.
Getting sick to your stomach afterwards is not necessarily a sign of remorse. Although I'm sure Sawyer felt disgusted and remorseful. As someone else pointed out, Michael was also shown throwing up after he shot the two women and he didn't seem to feel remorseful enough not to see it only as a means to and end of getting Walt back.
I disagree. The whole purpose of him bringing James