Well I guess he will be the next one to die. Now that he has finished his "duty".

What do you all think.

RJ

I say bite your tongue!!! Sawyer just can't die... Besides I think him dealing with what he's done could make for an interesting story line!

No, he's not going to die. For several reasons

1. Half of the Lost fans might go insane if Sawyer is killed.
2. Sawyer is now becoming a potential leader
3. There's still more to Sawyer--is he good, or bad?

I think Sawyer is one of the few people who is safely in the "Do not kill" camp, at least until the show runs closer to end. I really can't see them killing Jack/Sawyer/Locke anytime soon.

One can only hope. :1smiling: I could care less about his current storyline and he doesn't really have anything left to offer the show except eye candy for some.

Sawyer hasn't fixed his issue yet - he couldn't let it go and not kill - ie Anna Lucia We still have another year of him!

If Sawyer has to die then so does Locke because Cooper was the problem for both of them.
I don't think Sawyer is going anywhere anytime soon.

i think jack is more likley to die than sawyer is at this point.

heck, people trust sawyer more than they do jack now. heh.

Sawyer still has value/interest if Kate is pregnant and he helps try to find a way for her to not die on the island.

Plus, he seems annointed to lead the battle against Jack these days.

excuse me site moderators please do not give me another 10 points but **MOD edited**.ill give you one reason why he will not be killed off ever on this show.........HE IS (LOST) and what i mean by that is he (and im not kidding on this is ) accounts for anywhere to 40 to 50 % of the fans of lost...some might disagree but when i talk about lost to anyone...fans or not they say yea that guy sawyer hes cool or hes funny...hes not going anywhere sawyer fans...Ben however is....he is going to die

I doubt Sawyer's going anywhere. Though getting to see him follow through on his letter was one of the most rewarding moments of the series.

The real question is James feeling relief or resolution? If its resolution, then I'm sure Smokey has cleared his schedule for a meeting with James.

Sawyer = ratings. Ratings = $. $ makes for :biggrin: ABC executives.

And it (probably) really is that simple.

excuse me site moderators please do not give me another 10 points but **MOD edited**.ill give you one reason why he will not be killed off ever on this show.........HE IS (LOST) and what i mean by that is he (and im not kidding on this is ) accounts for anywhere to 40 to 50 % of the fans of lost...some might disagree but when i talk about lost to anyone...fans or not they say yea that guy sawyer hes cool or hes funny...hes not going anywhere sawyer fans...Ben however is....he is going to die

you know, putting that "disclaimer" in there doesnt actually make it okay to be rude to others. you may want to note that info b/c the next time you post such rudeness you will get points.

It was interesting watching "James" standing there, listening as Cooper so matter of factly recounted his big "scam" on his unwitting mother. You could see the wheels turning in Sawyer's head as he thought back to all the people HE had scammed over the years...and how his scams may have impacted those he had preyed upon. How conning people out of their money and valuables is NOT a victimless crime...

Thinking back to himself as an 8 year old boy...hiding under his bed....as his own father shoots his mother...then comes over and sits on the very bed he is hiding under...and blows his own brains out.

I think we will see a new Sawyer now...and his story is only beginning to unfold.

I think we will see a new Sawyer now...and his story is only beginning to unfold.

I think so too. A whole new chapter. I feel somewhat more secure now, after seeing this epi and reading these posts. And I still can't get over his performance. :flex:

Thank you Ator!! That was the most positive post I've seen lately about Sawyer! And I LOVE Sawyer and will tell you I'mt the biggest pessimist where he is concerned these days..

This DIMPLE needed to hear that. :biggrin:

I seriously could deal with nearly anyone else except Sawyer dying!

I wonder if he'll prefer people to call him James now that he's had his revenge? Or if he still feels dispicable over all he's done in his quest to find the real Sawyer.

it is that simple lostinthesoutheast and i completely agree with you...and to the site mod people seriously (Such rudeness)c'mon i really enjoy this site but if were going to take something as small as that and say that it is So RUde then ill go elsewhere...also i would like you to know that i do know the rules and i was simply trying to make a point and wouldnt say that calling people small minded is THat Rude anyways Namastae or w/e

I think anyone is fair game on the island.

I don't think that Sawyer's found the redemption yet that he "needs" in order to die on the Island. Yes, he confronted the con man Cooper and, yes, the letter was read but he had no intention to kill him until he snapped. Now, the fallout from that - even if it's in his own psyche - will make for interesting viewing. I love Sawyer/James! He's both good and bad and he provides a balance and is also emerging as a leader of the Losties in a way he could never have forseen. I don't think he's going to die. I think he will keep trying though because this will just exacerbate his self-loathing. :frown:

IMO its Bye Bye Kate and Charlie. ***MOD EDIT..VIP personal lives*** Josh character is to central to the theme. Another possibility is Syaid.

I'm pretty sure Charlie is the next one up to bat, so to speak. Thus far, he's been nearly killed several times...how long is Desmond going to be able to save him?

IMO its Bye Bye Kate and Charlie. ***MOD EDIT..VIP personal lives*** Josh character is to central to the theme. Another possibility is Syaid.

Let's keep in mind that we don't discuss the VIPs and their personal lives here...just stick to the characters they play.

TPTB surely know better than to kill Sawyer off. Of most everyone I talk to about the show, Sawyer is the favorite. I've always liked his character, but after tonight I absolutely love Sawyer! I though whole scene with Cooper and the letter was one of Lost's top ten scenes overall. It was executed exceptionally well. I still think there is much to be done with his character, and seriously doubt they will kill him off. However, it is true that anyone could go at this point, but I certainly hope it isn't Sawyer.

They had better leave Sayid alone too!:mad:

At this point I do not see Sawyer going anywhere.
I don't think his story is over. I think that now he has faced his Demon and Killed it.
He could turn into the Real Hero of the Losties.
Replacing Jack.
And Really even if we thought his story was over.
Sawyer is a Fan Favorite.
More so than Jack or Kate. I Don't think ABC would let them kill him off. The fans would go crazy.

it is that simple lostinthesoutheast and i completely agree with you...and to the site mod people seriously (Such rudeness)c'mon i really enjoy this site but if were going to take something as small as that and say that it is So RUde then ill go elsewhere...also i would like you to know that i do know the rules and i was simply trying to make a point and wouldnt say that calling people small minded is THat Rude anyways Namastae or w/eNobody's making you stay dude. The high standards of conduct required on this site are what make it the best Lost board on the Internet.

Regarding Sawyer's "relief," I don't think he'll feel any. Revenge rarely relieves a person as much as they think it will. He will have to find new meaning for himself now that his revenge mission is over.

Recently I have been cpmaring Sawyer to Inigo Montoya in my head.

Unfortunately, resolving issues is not a prerequisite for death on the Island. I don't know - if they wanted a really shocking death, Sawyer's would be it, and other shows have killed off fan favorites. The show could go on without him, but it wouldn't be nearly as interesting - he adds a lot of spice to an otherwise very angst show. Hurley's great comic relief, but Sawyer's character is a lot more complex. There's a reason he's one of the most popular characters, and it ain't his bare chest.

I've been reading this alot lately, but I don't think there is any way they are going to kill Sawyer off. It would be a huge mistake.

Even if he does die, "things don't stay burried on this island."

If Patchy can come back from apparent death, then who's to say Sawyer can't?

Even if he does die, "things don't stay burried on this island."

If Patchy can come back from apparent death, then who's to say Sawyer can't?

Well the writers have said that once someone is dead, they stay dead. I guess that means that perhpas Mikhail wasn't really dead. Don't ask me how someone can fake bleeding from the ears and foaming at the mouth, but it's the only explanation if you believe what some of the writers have said. Perhaps it wasn't Mikhail, remember when the smoke monster looked like Yemi? Ahhhh, the plot thickens!!

I'm pretty sure Charlie is the next one up to bat, so to speak. Thus far, he's been nearly killed several times...how long is Desmond going to be able to save him?

Charlie is not going to die. They are working too hard to make us think he is going to.

after that amazing performance from Josh in this episode, i think they'd have to be completely stupid to kill Sawyer off now. I think he's shown himself to be a better actor than most others on this show, and better than those in many other shows too IMHO, and it'd be like shooting themselves in the foot.
I think Sawyer is completely safe, for the time being at least. :)

It was interesting watching "James" standing there, listening as Cooper so matter of factly recounted his big "scam" on his unwitting mother. You could see the wheels turning in Sawyer's head as he thought back to all the people HE had scammed over the years...and how his scams may have impacted those he had preyed upon. How conning people out of their money and valuables is NOT a victimless crime...

Thinking back to himself as an 8 year old boy...hiding under his bed....as his own father shoots his mother...then comes over and sits on the very bed he is hiding under...and blows his own brains out.

I think we will see a new Sawyer now...and his story is only beginning to unfold.

Excellent post!

Sawyer's story is far from over. He'll have to put the pieces of himself back together again and learn to run on a different kind of fuel than the anger that's kept him going all these years. Josh and the writers have done an awesome job in bringing us this very layered character, and there's so much more I want to see of his story. I dearly hope James isn't going anywhere because I honestly can't imagine this show without him.

I agree with what everyone's saying. I would completely stop watching teh show if they killed Sawyer or Locke. They are simply the most interesting characters. You can imagine how into this episode I was given all the Sawyer Locke goodness.

Others I would REALLY hate to see go are Kate, Sayid, and Desmond.

Juliet is kind of growing on me too as an intriguing specimen.

Frankly though, I think the killing people off for the sake of drama thing is becoming a bit hokey and boring. Yeah we get it. You can kill people. Great. Do we have to sacrifice every interesting person in the name of this tired plot device?

Sawyer has committed both island no-nos. I would stay away from sharp objects, spoiled fruit, grouchie women, and most of all Smokey. Avoid ocean swims and thunder storms might also be a good idea. Imho.

:rip:

Dezdemona - I so agree with you. Sawyer's story is far from over. He will have a rough time dealing with this. He really didn't want to kill him or anybody and now he will have to recover from this. I can't blame him for doing it though. That man was truly evil and how sad was it when "James" said his mother's name. "Her name was Mary". Ugh it broke my heart. He actually had tears in his eyes. I've never seen him remotely close to tears. He has come a long way and how great did Josh Holloway do with this.

Dezdemona - I so agree with you. Sawyer's story is far from over. He will have a rough time dealing with this. He really didn't want to kill him or anybody and now he will have to recover from this. I can't blame him for doing it though. That man was truly evil and how sad was it when "James" said his mother's name. "Her name was Mary". Ugh it broke my heart. He actually had tears in his eyes. I've never seen him remotely close to tears. He has come a long way and how great did Josh Holloway do with this.

There are so many differing interpretations of James' killing of Cooper. Is it going to give him relief and be a resolution, as some have said? Or is it going to increase his anger and self-loathing, which he has recently seemed on the verge of overcoming? I agree that he did not intend to kill anyone, and that he "snapped" under the most extreme kind of provocation. But I also agree that his action does seem to be the type of thing that would set the smoke monster sniffing around, so I think despite the fact that there is the whole "How does James recover emotionally from this" story to be played out, he does seem somewhat vulnerable to Smokey or some other bad end, though the popularity of his character probably makes this unlikely.

So was the killing a necessary act of closure and justice or a transgression James should have resisted committing?

Oh, absolutely not! This just created him a superb dramatic storyline! I mean, he killed Cooper. He's going to have to deal with that. Also, it's not like new storylines can't be made for him.

There are so many differing interpretations of James' killing of Cooper. Is it going to give him relief and be a resolution, as some have said? Or is it going to increase his anger and self-loathing, which he has recently seemed on the verge of overcoming? I agree that he did not intend to kill anyone, and that he "snapped" under the most extreme kind of provocation. But I also agree that his action does seem to be the type of thing that would set the smoke monster sniffing around, so I think despite the fact that there is the whole "How does James recover emotionally from this" story to be played out, he does seem somewhat vulnerable to Smokey or some other bad end, though the popularity of his character probably makes this unlikely.

So was the killing a necessary act of closure and justice or a transgression James should have resisted committing?

The passage I've highlighted is the key question, isn't it? I can't wait to see what name he'll go by from here on. If he snaps at the first person who calls him Sawyer and says he doesn't go by that name any more, I think that would signify he's moving forward... however painful that will be. OTOH, if he snaps at Kate when she calls him James and says his name is "Sawyer", it might signify he's going the self-loathing route. What name he'll go by has now become my personal biggest burning question about this series! As for the rest of everything that's happening? "One thing at a time." First, I need to know THIS one thing. :biggrin:

Perhaps it wasn't Mikhail, remember when the smoke monster looked like Yemi?

I disagree completely with this... I don't think "Yemi" was actually Smokey.

Exactly what Yemi was—vision, ghost, etc.—I'm not sure. But there's no good reason to think that he was Smokey... I think if he WAS Smokey, he would've had cloudy eyes or something, a la the hybrids in The X-Files. At least that's what I'd do if I was a writer on Lost.

But that leads to a different question: Smokey killed Eko, but why? I realize that's not the focus of this discussion, though I think that accounts for why many think Sawyer will now die. But was Eko killed because of his past misdeeds and his lack of confession/forgiveness for them? I honestly think Eko was killed because he was the only one who had the perseverance, the will and the strength to really threaten THE ISLAND (as opposed to Dharma, Others, etc.) He stared down Smokey the first time; the second, Smokey basically sucker-punched him... there's something about The Island that didn't want Eko alive, and it had nothing to do with his not being "good."

Anyway, Smokey has only shown interest in Locke and Eko, AFAIR... if and when Sawyer dies, it won't be because of any "good" or "evil" in him, but simply dependent on circumstances, which have been the cause of all the show's deaths except Eko's.

The passage I've highlighted is the key question, isn't it? I can't wait to see what name he'll go by from here on. If he snaps at the first person who calls him Sawyer and says he doesn't go by that name any more, I think that would signify he's moving forward... however painful that will be. OTOH, if he snaps at Kate when she calls him James and says his name is "Sawyer", it might signify he's going the self-loathing route. What name he'll go by has now become my personal biggest burning question about this series! As for the rest of everything that's happening? "One thing at a time." First, I need to know THIS one thing. :biggrin:


Yes, agreed, the name will tell us much.

So was the killing a necessary act of closure and justice or a transgression James should have resisted committing?

I can't buy into the idea that killing is ever a necessary act of closure. That's a cheat, a weak, whiney excuse for not being mentally strong enough to make the right choice. Sawyer should've resisted, but that would've been OOC, because Sawyer is bad, just as most of the Losties are bad. He's got some good in him as most people do, but he is capable of violence that most of us aren't and therefore a dangerous man that should never be trusted.

Does this mean he's going to die? Nah, there's entirely too much mileage to be gotten out of another season of gratuitous shirtless scenes, tacky sex and snarky comments that the losties are too stupid to be offended by.

I can't buy into the idea that killing is ever a necessary act of closure. That's a cheat, a weak, whiney excuse for not being mentally strong enough to make the right choice. Sawyer should've resisted, but that would've been OOC, because Sawyer is bad, just as most of the Losties are bad. He's got some good in him as most people do, but he is capable of violence that most of us aren't and therefore a dangerous man that should never be trusted.

Does this mean he's going to die? Nah, there's entirely too much mileage to be gotten out of another season of gratuitous shirtless scenes, tacky sex and snarky comments that the losties are too stupid to be offended by.

Could you be a little more condescending to Sawyer fans? - I'm not sure you were trying hard enough with that last paragrah. :biggrin:

Sawyer repeatedly said he wasn't going to kill anybody - the Duckett murder weighs on his conscience and has from the minute he did it. He didn't go looking to be locked in a cage with the personfication of his demons, that was orchestrated by Locke. Things might have gone differently if Cooper hadn't been a soulless monster about it all. He would have done well to follow Locke's advice to Rousseau, "Be careful, it's not stable." Instead, Cooper lit the fuse and the result was explosive. Now James will have to live with what he did. . I don't think that will come easily to him because I don't believe he's intrinisically "bad".

I can't buy into the idea that killing is ever a necessary act of closure. That's a cheat, a weak, whiney excuse for not being mentally strong enough to make the right choice. Sawyer should've resisted, but that would've been OOC, because Sawyer is bad, just as most of the Losties are bad. He's got some good in him as most people do, but he is capable of violence that most of us aren't and therefore a dangerous man that should never be trusted.



I think that it is completely mind boggling that anyone could hold Cooper's killing against Sawyer. Not only did Cooper, cause the destruction of Sawyer's life, cause the death of his parents, and stripped away any shred of security or love that he may have had in his formative years, but then when faced with actions he ridiculed Sawyer's pain. He taunted him, implying that his mother didn't want him and that his father was is hell. And then he ripped up his letter, signifying that it was beneath him to care about how deeply his actions had hurt Sawyer. Of course Cooper deserved to die. He was pure evil personified. And call it what you wish, but I don't think this was a murder so much as Capital Punishment done Island Style. How many deaths and pain had Cooper been responsible for in his life? Do you seriously think that letting the man live and continue to destroy the lives of others would have been the right thing to do? Would it have made you feel any better if his death had been the result of a hanging after an island trial? Or what if it had been Jack who had killed someone? How would you have felt about that?

If Cooper had shown now or ever, even the slightest bit of remorse for any of his heinous deeds, I could see where people might criticize Sawyer's actions. But that wasn't the case, now was it.

Could you be a little more condescending to Sawyer fans?


Those are my opinions on Sawyer and are not meant to be condescending toward anyone. I was very disappointed in Sawyer's actions last night, but was not surprised to find that a gazillion excuses would be made on his behalf. Bottom line is that there is no excuse for cold-blooded murder and I'm pretty sure I'd never want to keep company with someone that has done this not once, but twice.


I think that it is completely mind boggling that anyone could hold Cooper's killing against Sawyer. Not only did Cooper, cause the destruction of Sawyer's life, cause the death of his parents, and stripped away any shred of security or love that he may have had in his formative years, but then when faced with actions he ridiculed Sawyer's pain. He taunted him, implying that his mother didn't want him and that his father was is hell. And then he ripped up his letter, signifying that it was beneath him to care about how deeply his actions had hurt Sawyer. Of course Cooper deserved to die. He was pure evil personified. And call it what you wish, but I don't think this was a murder so much as Capital Punishment done Island Style. How many deaths and pain had Cooper been responsible for in his life? Do you seriously think that letting the man live and continue to destroy the lives of others would have been the right thing to do? Would it have made you feel any better if his death had been the result of a hanging after an island trial? Or what if it had been Jack who had killed someone? How would you have felt about that?



I find it mind boggling that anyone could feel sorry for Sawyer or try to make excuses for what he's done. I don't care if he taunted him or tore up his stupid letter, he should've turned away. To turn your own logic back on you.....How many deaths and pain has Sawyer been responsible for in his life? Do you seriously think that allowing Sawyer to live and continue to destroy the lives of others is the right thing to do? How do you suppose the family of the man in Australia feels about Sawyer? How do you suppose the families of the women he screwed for their husband's money feel? How would you like to grow up knowing your father was worthless conman that screwed your mother out of her money and knocked her up in the process. Killing someone is never the right thing to do and if Jack for instance walked up to the man that screwed his wife and in a fit of rage strangled him with a chain I would lose all respect for him. There is a difference between killing in self-defense or even accidentally killing someone. Sawyer willfully strangled the life out of another human-being, an extreme act of violence that takes time. He could've stopped, but he didn't.

I can't buy into the idea that killing is ever a necessary act of closure. That's a cheat, a weak, whiney excuse for not being mentally strong enough to make the right choice. Sawyer should've resisted, but that would've been OOC, because Sawyer is bad, just as most of the Losties are bad. He's got some good in him as most people do, but he is capable of violence that most of us aren't and therefore a dangerous man that should never be trusted.

Does this mean he's going to die? Nah, there's entirely too much mileage to be gotten out of another season of gratuitous shirtless scenes, tacky sex and snarky comments that the losties are too stupid to be offended by.

Okay, let's see here: His mom, whom he obviously loved very much, was murdered while he was one room over. Then he witnesses his dad, regardless of whether he was close with him, blow his head off right next to him. Though we have no details, most likely he was shuffled amongst family and foster care during the most formative years of his life. Now he's trying to let that all go, to finally have the fortitude to attempt to move on, and the person who is directly responsible for all of the pain he has experienced for 28 years - remember, his mother, his "mommy," was murdered in cold blood - appears before him. Even then, he appears to be trying to restrain himself, to do the "right thing," to simply extract a modicum of remorse so he can move on, and this person taunts, mocks, insults him, insults his beloved mother, and he is still expected to be "mentally strong enough to make the right choice?" My god, that is one of the most compassionless, merciless, sanctimonious comments I've read. Even if he does die this season, which, I know, is what this thread is about, I do not for an instant hold him accountable for that moment of temporary insanity. Because that was what it was, he was a man pushed over the edge and beyond. Try to imagine walking a mile in another's, man.

Dezdemona The passage I've highlighted is the key question, isn't it? I can't wait to see what name he'll go by from here on. If he snaps at the first person who calls him Sawyer and says he doesn't go by that name any more, I think that would signify he's moving forward... however painful that will be. OTOH, if he snaps at Kate when she calls him James and says his name is "Sawyer", it might signify he's going the self-loathing route. What name he'll go by has now become my personal biggest burning question about this series! As for the rest of everything that's happening? "One thing at a time." First, I need to know THIS one thing. :biggrin:
I agree. The name thing will become more significant than it ever has been. Although I doubt he will recover anytime soon from this trauma, I can't imagine being called Sawyer will be tolerable to him now.

Those are my opinions on Sawyer and are not meant to be condescending toward anyone. I was very disappointed in Sawyer's actions last night, but was not surprised to find that a gazillion excuses would be made on his behalf. Bottom line is that there is no excuse for cold-blooded murder and I'm pretty sure I'd never want to keep company with someone that has done this not once, but twice.



I find it mind boggling that anyone could feel sorry for Sawyer or try to make excuses for what he's done. I don't care if he taunted him or tore up his stupid letter, he should've turned away. To turn your own logic back on you.....How many deaths and pain has Sawyer been responsible for in his life? Do you seriously think that allowing Sawyer to live and continue to destroy the lives of others is the right thing to do? How do you suppose the family of the man in Australia feels about Sawyer? How do you suppose the families of the women he screwed for their husband's money feel? How would you like to grow up knowing your father was worthless conman that screwed your mother out of her money and knocked her up in the process. Killing someone is never the right thing to do and if Jack for instance walked up to the man that screwed his wife and in a fit of rage strangled him with a chain I would lose all respect for him. There is a difference between killing in self-defense or even accidentally killing someone. Sawyer willfully strangled the life out of another human-being, an extreme act of violence that takes time. He could've stopped, but he didn't.


The fact that you could make such comparisons between Cooper and Sawyer truly speaks volumes about your prejudice against Sawyer. Their past actions may have been similar, but Sawyer has shown deep remorse for his actions. He longs to be a better person. Cooper however, has no remorse what so ever. He has no conscience. No desire to change his ways. The two men are like night and day.

I'm not so sure that we'll figure anything out from the "name" issue. Sawyer is a private dude--he didn't tell anyone about his parents and Sawyer/Cooper except for Kate. He didn't even tell Locke in this episode, which is the second time Locke asked him. I don't think he would allow himself such an public display of how last night's events affected him. The would be very OOC. I think we'll learn more by simply seeing what direction the writers take him in. If he is struggling to deal with killing Cooper like he struggled with killing Duckett, then that will be clear in what we see of Sawyer in the episodes to come. If killing Cooper is a monkey off his back, then we'll see that instead. I just wouldn't expect something as heavy handed and direct as him "snapping at someone that calls him Sawyer/James." I give the writers more credit than that.

I don't really see Sawyer dying at this point. The Losties dont' trust Jack. They are going to trust him less when Sawyer comes back with the tape. I'm guessing that Sawyer tells everyone about Locke giving it to him (of course omitting the part about Cooper.) His evolution into a leader was set up a few weeks ago on the episode where Hurley conned him into being nice. That was a set up. He'll finally take over that position by playing the tape--when everyone losing their last bit of faith in Jack, he'll be the one they turn to instead.

I'm also guessing that Sawyer will listen to the tape before he gets back (duh!) and will realize that he's gonna be a daddy. This gives his character a whole bunch of directions to go. He obvioulsy won't be happy that the Others are coming to snatch his baby-mama Kate. When does he find out about pregnant women dying? That will add another element to his character.

I don't think anyone is neccessarily "safe" from getting killed off, but of the characters that have died so far, 2 were because the actors wanted off the show (or never intended to stay permanently, in AL's case). I just don't see this notion of "you die after you wrap up your business" really having much behind it. It seems clear to me that Sawyer is being set up to be an even BIGGER player than he has up to this point, and killing him off would be a waste. Again, I give the writers more credit than that.

My one caviat is that I could see him dying to somehow save Kate. But I don't really see how that could happen at this point.

Sawyer has shown deep remorse for his actions. He longs to be a better person.


He has? Was it when he used the woman he loves to con all of his island co-habitants? Was this evidence that he's longing to be a better person? It has only been about 20 days since he did that.


The fact that you could make such comparisons between Cooper and Sawyer truly speaks volumes about your prejudice against Sawyer.

I don't have any predjudice against Sawyer. He is what he is. I see that and don't candy coat it. I thought he was truly about to make an effort to be a better person, but when push came to shove he failed the test. That you can't make the comparisons between Sawyer and Cooper truly speaks volumes about your blind loyalty for Sawyer.

Sawyer still has a chance at redemption, the big question is, does he really want it? Does he really want to put in the hard work and effort it takes to be a good person?

I don't think so..... he is too connected and is now a major player in the power game. I believe that he is too smart to get killed.

He has? Was it when he used the woman he loves to con all of his island co-habitants? Was this evidence that he's longing to be a better person? It has only been about 20 days since he did that.


meh, more like 30.

He has? Was it when he used the woman he loves to con all of his island co-habitants? Was this evidence that he's longing to be a better person? It has only been about 20 days since he did that.


I don't have any predjudice against Sawyer. He is what he is. I see that and don't candy coat it. I thought he was truly about to make an effort to be a better person, but when push came to shove he failed the test. That you can't make the comparisons between Sawyer and Cooper truly speaks volumes about your blind loyalty for Sawyer.

Sawyer still has a chance at redemption, the big question is, does he really want it? Does he really want to put in the hard work and effort it takes to be a good person?

Wow, what a sanctimonious attitude you have. I think when anyone posts regularly on this board it is very clear which characters you love and which you hate. I don;t like Jack one bit, but I'll admit that would prejudice me against his actions because I just can't stand the guy. You obviously feel the same about sawyer, and that's fair enough everyone has the right to expres their opinions, but don't act as if you are seeing the events sawyer went through from an unbiased point of view. Just as I am not because I love his character so of course I am going to be more leniant on him.

However, this thread is full of posts with unbiased people who arn't absolute die hard sawyer fans, but who know what he went through and understanding why he killed him. Did sawyer go there with the intention of killing anyone? No, that was repeated over and over. Did he snap when provocefd in the most harsh and cruel way imaginable, when faced with his own personal demon, someone who put him through all that, just laughing in his face and telling him that his Mommy, a woman I'm sure he has spent his whole life idolising, wanted to be taken away from him. I can't blame him for his actions, I can't say that if I had been through what he had and was faced with that situation then I would be strong enough to not kill him.

Unless you have had some kind of similar trauma, or been in a situation similar to his I don;t see how anyone can understand what he must have gone through. And we have seen no evidence that any of the Losties would have reacted any different to how sawyer did.

As to the topic, I can't see the point of killing sawyer, at this point in the show anyway. Yes, it would be a shock, but killing off one of the most popular characters for shock value seems, well, silly. I can't see how at the moment it would play into the main storyline. Infact, what it appears they are setting up is Sawyer becoming a leader of the group opposing Jack. Him dying would be a watse of one the most popular and arguably one of the best actors on the show.

Sawyer's much too important to the story IMO to kill off. I'd be really shocked . . .

agreed. and the other thread going around saying Jack is going to die is bogus too. Sawyer or Jack are not going to die. That would just ruin the show. Josh Holloway is an amazing actor as he proved tonight. maybe if it was season 4 or 5 there's more of a possibility....

You obviously feel the same about sawyer, and that's fair enough everyone has the right to expres their opinions, but don't act as if you are seeing the events sawyer went through from an unbiased point of view. Just as I am not because I love his character so of course I am going to be more leniant on him.



Relax, that was all about turning the accusation back on the accuser. If I'm going to be accused of refusing to see Sawyer's growth because I'm supposedly predjudice against him I'm going to turn that right back at you, so if you want to accuse someone of being sanctimonious you should go for the person that initially made the accusation not me.

I have been able to see Sawyer's growth and have even commented on it, but in my opinion his growth was severely stunted last night because he resorted right back to who he's always been. I never said I didn't understand why he did what he did, but just because I have the capacity to understand it or even sympathize with it, doesn't make it right or justifiable. Bottom line is that if Sawyer had truly made the progress we were led to believe he had made, he wouldn't have killed him. That's just how I see it and I found it disappointing, but also realistic because I am a firm believer in the theory that "Tigers Don't Change Their Stripes".

Sawyer won't be killed off.

A Jack, Sawyer or Locke death would not "ruin" the show... at least not for those who love a good story.

I have my favorite characters... Eko, in fact, was tops on my list. But it didn't ruin anything for him to die, because there's a proper reason, even if I can't quite understand it yet.

I have enough faith in the show to think that anything that happens is necessary to the story. And the story is supreme, unless it just becomes a BAD story, which obv. we all hope won't happen.

Had Sawyer not killed Cooper last night I'd have been more worried about his possible death, but with the fact that he's going to have to work through what happened last night, as well as the fact that things are going to get really interesting when he comes back and plays the tape, he isn't going anywhere.

I'll go ahead and jump on the train that can't really fault Sawyer for what happened last night. As has been said he maintained over, and over again that he wasn't going to the Black Rock with the intentions of killing anyone, and even when he first realized who Cooper was he didn't seem like he would have killed him, and that says a ton, he had been focusing on revenge against this guy for 28 years. However when Cooper taunted him about his mother, and then ripped up the letter, he snapped. Thats really all there is to it.

He was obviously horrified afterwards, the look on his face, and his vomiting out in the jungle show that. It will be interesting to see where he goes from here, does he sink back down into his self loathing again for killing some one else, or does the fact that he finally got his man, allow him to finally put this all behind him, and allow him to start to become the person he's shown at times that he can be.

takes off MOD hat to comment

However, this thread is full of posts with unbiased people who arn't absolute die hard sawyer fans, but who know what he went through and understanding why he killed him. Did sawyer go there with the intention of killing anyone? No, that was repeated over and over. Did he snap when provocefd in the most harsh and cruel way imaginable, when faced with his own personal demon, someone who put him through all that, just laughing in his face and telling him that his Mommy, a woman I'm sure he has spent his whole life idolising, wanted to be taken away from him. I can't blame him for his actions, I can't say that if I had been through what he had and was faced with that situation then I would be strong enough to not kill him.

very good points. i especially like the first line. there were a lot of non-Sawyer fans commenting in here. it was nice to see how much Sawyer has come to be almost understood and :eek2: liked :eek2: by fans of LOST. Sawyer has always been my favorite and i would be seriously crushed should he be killed off.

i think that he does have a lot more story, so for now his character is "safe". that doesnt mean that i wasn't in full panic mode earlier this season when he was on the cover of TV Guide...i fully predicted his oncoming death. i was reasurred that i was incorrect at the time. i certainly hope that i end up being wrong by season's end and that Sawyer/James will still be with us well into Season 4.

end of fan comments.

Puts on MOD hat

.and to the site mod people seriously (Such rudeness)c'mon i really enjoy this site but if were going to take something as small as that and say that it is So RUde then ill go elsewhere...also i would like you to know that i do know the rules and i was simply trying to make a point and wouldnt say that calling people small minded is THat Rude anyways Namastae or w/e
you are free to go elsewhere. we expect posters to refrain from namecalling and baiting comments. calling someone small minded is just that, baiting and rude namecalling. if you cant post without insulting your fellow posters, then yes, please just leave.

Relax, that was all about turning the accusation back on the accuser. .
see that is the problem..."turning the accusation back". if you had done it without rudely insinuating someone's bias etc then it may have been fine. however, we expect posters to debate the post and not attack the poster's beliefs and/or likes, their bias if you will. the posters that you "turned it back" on were debating the merits of Sawyer's actions. They were not telling everyone who had not sided with Sawyer to get whatever neither were they rude about it. if you want to post in threads that have to do with Sawyer, then i suggest you check your bias at the entrance and not bring it out again until you leave the thread. debate is fine but coming in here with "guns blazing" looking for a fight b/c you dont like Sawyer is just not cool. if you cannot disengage your bias and see the points for their merit then perhaps you shouldnt bother to comment on this or any other Sawyer subject.

Those are my opinions on Sawyer and are not meant to be condescending toward anyone. I was very disappointed in Sawyer's actions last night, but was not surprised to find that a gazillion excuses would be made on his behalf. Bottom line is that there is no excuse for cold-blooded murder and I'm pretty sure I'd never want to keep company with someone that has done this not once, but twice.

I don't see how it could be regarded as cold-blooded murder. Seems like a case of snapping under extreme provocation, to me. If anyone was cold-blooded, it was Locke, listening to Sawyer screaming to be let out.

takes off MOD hat to comment

very good points. i especially like the first line. there were a lot of non-Sawyer fans commenting in here. it was nice to see how much Sawyer has come to be almost understood and :eek2: liked :eek2: by fans of LOST. Sawyer has always been my favorite and i would be seriously crushed should he be killed off.

i think that he does have a lot more story, so for now his character is "safe". that doesnt mean that i wasn't in full panic mode earlier this season when he was on the cover of TV Guide...i fully predicted his oncoming death. i was reasurred that i was incorrect at the time. i certainly hope that i end up being wrong by season's end and that Sawyer/James will still be with us well into Season 4.

end of fan comments.

Puts on MOD hat


you are free to go elsewhere. we expect posters to refrain from namecalling and baiting comments. calling someone small minded is just that, baiting and rude namecalling. if you cant post without insulting your fellow posters, then yes, please just leave.


see that is the problem..."turning the accusation back". if you had done it without rudely insinuating someone's bias etc then it may have been fine. however, we expect posters to debate the post and not attack the poster's beliefs and/or likes, their bias if you will. the posters that you "turned it back" on were debating the merits of Sawyer's actions. They were not telling everyone who had not sided with Sawyer to get whatever neither were they rude about it. if you want to post in threads that have to do with Sawyer, then i suggest you check your bias at the entrance and not bring it out again until you leave the thread. debate is fine but coming in here with "guns blazing" looking for a fight b/c you dont like Sawyer is just not cool. if you cannot disengage your bias and see the points for their merit then perhaps you shouldnt bother to comment on this or any other Sawyer subject.

Forgive me Halfrek, but it was LostintheSoutheast who "rudely insinuated that I was bias" and I'm sorry but I took that as someone being rude to me because I didn't not side with Sawyer. All I did was turn his/her words back on her and suggest that perhaps she was not capable of seeing the picture clearly either. If what I did was wrong I apologize, but I think it's very unfair of you to single me out in this. I do not feel I came in here with guns blazing. I came in here with an opinon about what Sawyer did in last night's episode. If the only opinions that are allowed is that Sawyer's actions were justified please just let me know and I'll be happy to silence myself.

mmmk. here i go


Alright im just gunna reference other post as there are too many to quote.

a. I agree with teh basic sawyer wont die b,c he = ratings
b. I agree he is a fan favorite
now mor eimportantly

my entire outlook on him changed after last night, before, i loved him, he was hot, funny, and interesting... but now its somuch deeper and more.. i feel his pain and i know he is changing. his story is far from over and in the need i think he will be the one who gets them saved.

**MOD edited** the depth of his character far out ways many of the others.

he is amazing. A+ to Josh for an incredible performance

Forgive me Halfrek, but it was LostintheSoutheast who "rudely insinuated that I was bias" and I'm sorry but I took that as someone being rude to me because I didn't not side with Sawyer. All I did was turn his/her words back on her and suggest that perhaps she was not capable of seeing the picture clearly either. If what I did was wrong I apologize, but I think it's very unfair of you to single me out in this. I do not feel I came in here with guns blazing. I came in here with an opinon about what Sawyer did in last night's episode. If the only opinions that are allowed is that Sawyer's actions were justified please just let me know and I'll be happy to silence myself.

you didnt have to take the bait and throw it back. i singled you out b/c you had debated the post in a manner which wasn't "attack the post not the poster". i am sure that you will be more careful next time.

as for Sawyer's actions being justified or not, that is still up for discussion.

adding to this discussion, you mentioned earlier that you wouldn't want to spend time with a "cold blooded murderer". definition of cold blooded: without emotion or feeling; dispassionate; cruel: a cold-blooded murder.

i have to disagree with your labeling of Sawyer as this. this murder and the one he commited in Australia were clearly an act of passion. he was fullfilling his desire to get revenge on the man who had ruined his life. his anger was what was driving him. he was not without emotion or feeling either time. his killing of Cooper was an act of passion, anger and guilt. i do not think he would have gone through with it had Cooper not been such an unfeeling callous man and cavalier about Sawyer's mother's death.

Kate murdering her step father was an act of passion as well. she hated her step father for what it was doing to her mother. it may have been premeditated but it wasn't cold blooded.

again i say, Sawyer has not let go of anything yet. he is not ready to pass on b/c he will now have to deal with this act of passion. this is going to seriously mess up his character for a while, at least until he forgives himself for all of his conning as well as these murders.

In my opinion, Sawyer and Kate both are cold-blooded killers, so I'll agree to disagree. I personally feel very disturbed over what I saw last night, Locke more disturbing than Sawyer, but the behavior of both still very unsettling.

In my opinion, Sawyer and Kate both are cold-blooded killers, so I'll agree to disagree. I personally feel very disturbed over what I saw last night, Locke more disturbing than Sawyer, but the behavior of both still very unsettling.

agreed the actions of last night are very unsettling.

in regards to being cold blooded killers, if you have another definition of the term cold blooded i guess i cannot argue that. you are correct, i dont agree with whatever definition you are holding those two characters to. IMO the only person so far that has been a true cold blooded murderer was Goodwin and/or Michael. i was going to say Jin but we dont know that he ever actually killed anyone for Mr. Paik.

now i am mentally compiling a list that contains everyone that has ever killed another human and their situations for the murder. there is probably a list on here somewhere but i haven't looked.

In my opinion, Sawyer and Kate both are cold-blooded killers, so I'll agree to disagree. I personally feel very disturbed over what I saw last night, Locke more disturbing than Sawyer, but the behavior of both still very unsettling.

... steps in waving white flag....


For discussions sake...And I'm truly NOT being sarcastic here... I really want to understand your point of view. Is there any kind of killing that you would classify as not being cold blooded?

In my opinion, Sawyer and Kate both are cold-blooded killers, so I'll agree to disagree. I personally feel very disturbed over what I saw last night, Locke more disturbing than Sawyer, but the behavior of both still very unsettling.

1st, Sawyer isn't going bye bye for killing Cooper - why would he? You'd have to get rid of half the cast if it was all about who's committed a murder, or been responsible for someone else's death.

My feelings about last night's epi are quite the opposite as above. I loved the rawness of it all. This isn't some kiddie show - it's the same "in your face" show as it was in the very beginning, starting with the smoke monster tearing apart the pilot. Lost is violent, gritty, thought-provoking, funny, mysterious, unpredictable and disturbing. It draws a line in the sand, and jumps over it. That's why I watch it!

First degree or cold-blooded murder - premeditated, deliberate, and/or malicious act of intentionally causing the death of another party. Calculated and committed willfully with the intention to kill or do serious harm.

That description could be held to both Kate and Sawyer's off the island killings. Sawyer's killing of Cooper could be argued as temporary insanity or a crime of passion because he did not go there with the intent to kill anyone, but a good prosecutor would use a lifetime of stalking this man for the sole purpose of killing him as a means of getting a jury to convict on a first degree murder charge.

In my opinion killing is wrong whether you can sympathize with why someone killed or not and even the "eye for an eye" doesn't hold true for Sawyer because in reality Cooper's crime against Sawyer was no worse than any crime Sawyer has committed against families, the man responsible for Sawyer's life-long misery was his father, not Cooper and I personally was hoping that Sawyer would have grown enough to understand this and accept this and no matter how enraged or hurt he was find the strength to turn away. Oh well, I don't write LOST and apparently this scenario would've been unrealistic and no doubt less entertaining.

Sawyer has been an instrument in Locke's hands. Locke caused Cooper's death, it doesn't matter if Sawyer materially killed Cooper. Locke is to be blamed equally, if not more. Locke couldn't kill the man himself – I don't know if it was out of cowardice, or if he didn't want to have his hands dirty with blood – so he set Sawyer up.

I don't approve killing a man, but who has been more human between Sawyer and Locke? Sawyer was forced to meet his prime enemy, his nemesis. He was locked (maybe pun intended) in the same room with Cooper, a man who hasn't cared for anybody but himself, an abominable man who laughs when reminded of the pain he brought, a man who caused the death of Sawyer's parents. Sawyer acted like many people would in the very same situation. In a fit of decisive wrath, in a raptus, he materially killed Cooper. And felt awful afterwards.

Locke? He had a plan. He premeditated Cooper's death by Sawyer's hand. He set Sawyer up, following his personal agenda. Locke has been the cold-blooded killer. I was appalled by his lack of emotions throughout the episode, by his detachment (and the brief interchange with Rousseau was excellent in depicting this sentiment).

So, I wouldn't blame Sawyer entirely for what happened.


Rick

agreed the actions of last night are very unsettling.

now i am mentally compiling a list that contains everyone that has ever killed another human and their situations for the murder. there is probably a list on here somewhere but i haven't looked.

I would love to see that list if you are willing to share with me. I am trying to determine who killed out out of (and I use the terms lightly) immediate danger , self defense, self preservation, revenge, blackmail, money, ect. If anyone else would like to give it a go please feel free.

Cheers

Sawyer isn't gonna die, and here's why:

1. His character serves as a vital outlet for the most clever, witty, enjoyable dialogue in the show, and offing him would hurt the writers' hearts. Who else could they give his lines to? Nobody else can pull them off.

2. Male viewer love him because he's a smart ***, women love him cause he's a bad boy and he's hot. Very few characters on the show appeal to both sexes like he does.

3. If they killed him, every hot blooded woman between the ages of 16-66 who watches the show would show up at ABC studios with a gas can and a match....

Sawyer's safe, no worries.

I've worried since Tale of Two Cities that Sawyer would be the scoundral to do "a far far better thing" and sacrifice himself to save the woman he loves. I can see it coming down to a choice a last stand kind of situation, and Sawyer telling Jack to go save Kate.

I totally agree with whoever just posted and said that if anyone is cold blooded it's Locke. He deliberately sought sawyer out with the intention of getting him to kill him father, because he was too gutless to do it himself.

Who's the real villain of the episode? Locke knew everything Cooper had put him through and he locked him in a room with him, waiting for him ot get mad enough to kill him. I am torn because I love wierd, mental crazy Locke, but part of me is so mad at what he did I want him to have a one man ticket straight to smoky!

I just got back from work and my house mates were watching Natural Born Killers, I don;t know if anyone has seen it, but it's about a couple who come from totally terrible, messed up backgrounds of the worse vsariety and get together, kill her molesting family and go on a killing spree until they get caught, go to jail and end up escpaing in a glorious blood bath. But what I love about the film is the way the writers/director etc WANT us to like Micky and Mallory (the couple) and want us to route for them. They do this by showing how evil the "good" police force are, showing us why they are like they are, and because of their love for each other.

With this recent episode, you just got the impression all the way through the writers want us to like sawyer and to side with him and not berate him for what he did. They show Locke as the worst one, in my opinion, and show how messed up his past was (the bit about hbis mum was heart breaking) and as a realust the general consensus is that people understand why sawyer did it.

If the writers made sawyer kill copper at this point of the show, yet made us understand why, I don;t see why they would now turn his character evil, or make him a totally dark cjharacter. I think for the next couple of episodes it will be tough, but I have a feeling he may come through for the losties big time in the finale and start to try and put what happened behind him. making us side with sawer in this matter seems pointless if his chatracter is just going back to how he was in season one!

Sawyer isn't gonna die, and here's why:

1. His character serves as a vital outlet for the most clever, witty, enjoyable dialogue in the show, and offing him would hurt the writers' hearts. Who else 2. Male viewer love him because he's a smart ***, women love him cause he's could they give his lines to? Nobody else can pull them off.

a bad boy and he's hot. Very few characters on the show appeal to both sexes like he does.

3. If they killed him, every hot blooded woman between the ages of 16-66 who watches the show would show up at ABC studios with a gas can and a match....

Sawyer's safe, no worries.

I enjoyed the way you've framed this post! :biggrin:

However, I'd like to address an omission in point #2. People LOVE a good redemption story. They love to pull for that screwed up guy with the tragic childhood and the long string of bad decisions, the one that careens through life causing damage to other people, left and right. Maybe we figure if he can overcome his pain and his demons, then there's hope for us. Or maybe we just get a surge of sympathy for the little kid inside whoever he's become.

Either way, we want him to figure things out, change, find happiness, achieve peace of mind, get the girl. It's so satisfying when he advances, so disappointing when he takes a step backward. That's something entirely apart from being a smart *** or a hot bad boy.

Because of its nature, and the need for characters to develop significantly, the only place on TV that you can find a real redemption story is in serialized drama. Beyond that, it takes just the right actor to play the character in need of redemption. Lightening struck with this character and this actor. JMO, of course.

I enjoyed the way you've framed this post! :biggrin:

However, I'd like to address an omission in point #2. People LOVE a good redemption story. They love to pull for that screwed up guy with the tragic childhood and the long string of bad decisions, the one that careens through life causing damage to other people, left and right. Maybe we figure if he can overcome his pain and his demons, then there's hope for us. Or maybe we just get a surge of sympathy for the little kid inside whoever he's become.

Either way, we want him to figure things out, change, find happiness, achieve peace of mind, get the girl. It's so satisfying when he advances, so disappointing when he takes a step backward. That's something entirely apart from being a smart a** or a hot bad boy.

Because of its nature, and the need for characters to develop significantly, the only place on TV that you can find a real redemption story is in serialized drama. Beyond that, it takes just the right actor to play the character in need of redemption. Lightening struck with this character and this actor. JMO, of course.

I guess I'm a bit different from a lot of other TV viewers, I LIKE Sawyer as "bad". There's nothing more appealing to those of us who love bad boys than to see dark, disturbed, emotionally wounded Sawyer sitting alone on the beach reading Judy Blume. Come on, what's better than that?? I don't want him to change, or repent, or be saved. Some viewers say they love to hate Sawyer. I love to WATCH them hate Sawyer.

We can't all be like Jack, I love a good con man, so long as he's not conning me. There's nothing in the world that takes a higher intellect than the ability to con others into doing what you want for your benefit and their loss. I know this makes me sound like a mighty unethical person, but its the truth.

Taking Sawyer out of the formula of this show would be its undoing. It could do without Jack, or Kate, or Sayid, but the 3 characters that are essential to its success are Locke, Hurley, and Sawyer. Oh, and I guess we need Ben too (ick).

As I see it, Sawyer would have been redeemed if he had NOT killed Cooper. He kept insisting throughout the encounter with Locke that nobody was going to kill anyone, but in the end he was manipulated, by both Locke and Cooper, into a rage killing.

I think this will take Sawyer's character into interesting new directions. So now I feel that Sawyer is MORE safe from death at the moment, rather than less.

I guess I'm a bit different from a lot of other TV viewers, I LIKE Sawyer as "bad". There's nothing more appealing to those of us who love bad boys than to see dark, disturbed, emotionally wounded Sawyer sitting alone on the beach reading Judy Blume. Come on, what's better than that?? I don't want him to change, or repent, or be saved. Some viewers say they love to hate Sawyer. I love to WATCH them hate Sawyer.
Ah, I see your a twisty one. :biggrin:

For me, there's "bad" and then there's "BAD". I would never want Sawyer to become a boy-Scout style hero. OTOH, I would like him to be a genuine anti-hero, dragged to heroic action time and again by that little streak of human decency in him that he never quite managed to kill, or by his love for a girl, or friendship for a hero, or because Aaron needs milk and the Others have the only damn cow on the island. He'd fool himself, and everybody else, that he's just doing it so the baby will stop crying and he can get some sleep, but we'll know it's because there's that little bit of genuine nice guy in him that he keeps hidden and only takes out on rare occasions, or for special people.


We can't all be like Jack, I love a good con man, so long as he's not conning me. There's nothing in the world that takes a higher intellect than the ability to con others into doing what you want for your benefit and their loss. I know this makes me sound like a mighty unethical person, but its the truth.

Thank heaven we can't all be like Jack! I know he's basically a good guy and all, but he does grate on my nerves with his autocratic tendencies, his control-freakness, and his general no-fun-mopey-pantsness. One like him is enough... sometimes more than enough.

I get what you're saying about the intellect it takes to run a con. It's like a chess game with living human beings as pieces and the Con Artist has to stay several steps ahead, but always able to respond to an unexpected development today. I was very glad that the show devoted one episode to showing us a successful "long con" run by Sawyer on the camp. The psychological manipulation required was a treat to analyze afterward.

Taking Sawyer out of the formula of this show would be its undoing. It could do without Jack, or Kate, or Sayid, but the 3 characters that are essential to its success are Locke, Hurley, and Sawyer. Oh, and I guess we need Ben too (ick).

I completely agree with your three essentials. I'm glad I didn't have to arm-wrestle with you over Jack being on the "expendables" list. The show fared very well without him in the thick of things this season IMHO. Now watch them make fools of us (wouldn't be the first time) and kill off somebody we think is essential. :p

I enjoyed the way you've framed this post! :biggrin:

However, I'd like to address an omission in point #2. People LOVE a good redemption story. They love to pull for that screwed up guy with the tragic childhood and the long string of bad decisions, the one that careens through life causing damage to other people, left and right. Maybe we figure if he can overcome his pain and his demons, then there's hope for us. Or maybe we just get a surge of sympathy for the little kid inside whoever he's become.

Either way, we want him to figure things out, change, find happiness, achieve peace of mind, get the girl. It's so satisfying when he advances, so disappointing when he takes a step backward. That's something entirely apart from being a smart *** or a hot bad boy.

Because of its nature, and the need for characters to develop significantly, the only place on TV that you can find a real redemption story is in serialized drama. Beyond that, it takes just the right actor to play the character in need of redemption. Lightening struck with this character and this actor. JMO, of course.

Dezdemona,

Every time I read your posts, I find out we think exactly alike :-).

Josh Holloway is an amazing actor, and his portrayal of Sawyer has been wonderful.

Josh is great with showing his emotions- he conveys so much with his anger, pain, and sadness, as well as his humor and wit.

I believe Sawyer will be alive, either til the very end of the show, or within an episode or two before the series actually ends. He is very integral to the show, and Josh/Sawyer just has great charisma.

Seeing his journey after taking out the real Sawyer will be interesting. I know he will be disturbed and distant for awhile, but I like the fact he may become more of a leader now. I like Locke alot, but was upset with how he manipulated Sawyer. I hope Locke has to deal with the consequences from that in the future.

I can't wait to see how this season ends...

The past few posts in particular have been an insighful read. Thanks guys for saying so well exactly what I wanted to express myself. :biggrin:

I guess I'm a bit different from a lot of other TV viewers, I LIKE Sawyer as "bad". There's nothing more appealing to those of us who love bad boys than to see dark, disturbed, emotionally wounded Sawyer sitting alone on the beach reading Judy Blume. Come on, what's better than that?? I don't want him to change, or repent, or be saved. Some viewers say they love to hate Sawyer. I love to WATCH them hate Sawyer.

We can't all be like Jack, I love a good con man, so long as he's not conning me. There's nothing in the world that takes a higher intellect than the ability to con others into doing what you want for your benefit and their loss. I know this makes me sound like a mighty unethical person, but its the truth.

Dark, disturbed and manipulative Sawyer is so much more appealing than the conman with the "heart of gold". Will Sawyer now be Locke's disciple ("were you a cripple?"), or will he act cold and remote and yet still lead part of the Losties to safety? I even hope we see that Sawyer's murdering tendencies continue against some "Others". Wow, Josh plays angry and disturbed so well.

His story is much more interesting to me now as the unredeemed, than it was at any other point this past season. I hope it isn't Bye Bye Sawyer. I hope it is, "That's Mr. Sawyer to you Flashy Time Boy - Desmundo."

Sawyer can't die now because he is the main link between the 815ers and the Others featuring John Locke. Whatever Locke goes on to become, he owes Sawyer big time for the opportunity to get there.

Thank you Ator!! That was the most positive post I've seen lately about Sawyer! And I LOVE Sawyer and will tell you I'mt the biggest pessimist where he is concerned these days..

This DIMPLE needed to hear that. :biggrin:

I would have to agree... and I am not the huge Sawyer fan that some are... but Josh's performance was spot on last night. Truly excellent.

I think that the writers can do tons with Sawyer still. There's Clementine... and who knows what else. The person I'm concerned about losing is Locke... we know all about him now too.

I think that it is completely mind boggling that anyone could hold Cooper's killing against Sawyer. Not only did Cooper, cause the destruction of Sawyer's life, cause the death of his parents, and stripped away any shred of security or love that he may have had in his formative years, but then when faced with actions he ridiculed Sawyer's pain. He taunted him, implying that his mother didn't want him and that his father was is hell. And then he ripped up his letter, signifying that it was beneath him to care about how deeply his actions had hurt Sawyer. Of course Cooper deserved to die. He was pure evil personified. And call it what you wish, but I don't think this was a murder so much as Capital Punishment done Island Style. How many deaths and pain had Cooper been responsible for in his life? Do you seriously think that letting the man live and continue to destroy the lives of others would have been the right thing to do? Would it have made you feel any better if his death had been the result of a hanging after an island trial? Or what if it had been Jack who had killed someone? How would you have felt about that?

If Cooper had shown now or ever, even the slightest bit of remorse for any of his heinous deeds, I could see where people might criticize Sawyer's actions. But that wasn't the case, now was it.

Amen, Lostinthesoutheast! I think a lot of people believe that all killings are murder and that's just not the case. As you and I and other people on the boards have said, he kept saying over and over "I'm not killing anyone" or "I'm not killing him!"
Sawyer snapped and lost control and I can't imagine any human being not doing the same thing he did when faced with the very same situation and circumstance.
As all good Southerners know - all murders are killin's but not all killin's are murders. ;)
I truly don't think that Sawyer's confrontation with Cooper (no matter what the outcome turned out to be) would have brought the relief he's believed since he was a child that it would bring. How many times have we had imaginary conversations where we confront our "tormenter"? He will say...then I will say... And it never goes like you think it will in real life. I'm sure that James has learned this on some level but, in this one thing, he's probably never applied that rule. Now, he's had the confrontation and it sure didn't go like he ever expected it would. Relief? I think it's more like horror that he's feeling! Horror with himself for snapping and killing the man, horror that he was duped by Locke and horror that the place in his heart that's been hurting since he was a child feels the same - only there's more pain there.
It's really too bad that the one person he should be able to talk about this to on the Island (Kate) is busy working another agenda. She knows what happened with this parents and, if he could figure out a way to explain to her the phenominal course of events that he's just gone through, she should be the one to point out that he snapped and that, as horrible as it was, he did stand up for himself and his parents. In other words, the sin was on Cooper not him.
Sorry for the lengthiness of this post but this episode has stayed with my all day. As much as I love Lost, that rarely happens.

If the Island or Smokey is as omniscient as writers would have us believe, then I believe it will take all these factors into account and spare Sawyer. If for no other reason that Smokey might think that would be the most just "punishment".

If the Island or Smokey is as omniscient as writers would have us believe, then I believe it will take all these factors into account and spare Sawyer. If for no other reason that Smokey might think that would be the most just "punishment".

Sawyer also puked his guts out (or so we are to think) after he killed Cooper... so he may not be "happy" about it. He may actually be contrite and be spared.

Amen, Lostinthesoutheast! I think a lot of people believe that all killings are murder and that's just not the case. As you and I and other people on the boards have said, he kept saying over and over "I'm not killing anyone" or "I'm not killing him!"
Sawyer snapped and lost control and I can't imagine any human being not doing the same thing he did when faced with the very same situation and circumstance.
As all good Southerners know - all murders are killin's but not all killin's are murders. ;)
I truly don't think that Sawyer's confrontation with Cooper (no matter what the outcome turned out to be) would have brought the relief he's believed since he was a child that it would bring. How many times have we had imaginary conversations where we confront our "tormenter"? He will say...then I will say... And it never goes like you think it will in real life. I'm sure that James has learned this on some level but, in this one thing, he's probably never applied that rule. Now, he's had the confrontation and it sure didn't go like he ever expected it would. Relief? I think it's more like horror that he's feeling! Horror with himself for snapping and killing the man, horror that he was duped by Locke and horror that the place in his heart that's been hurting since he was a child feels the same - only there's more pain there.
It's really too bad that the one person he should be able to talk about this to on the Island (Kate) is busy working another agenda. She knows what happened with this parents and, if he could figure out a way to explain to her the phenominal course of events that he's just gone through, she should be the one to point out that he snapped and that, as horrible as it was, he did stand up for himself and his parents. In other words, the sin was on Cooper not him.
Sorry for the lengthiness of this post but this episode has stayed with my all day. As much as I love Lost, that rarely happens.

If the Island or Smokey is as omniscient as writers would have us believe, then I believe it will take all these factors into account and spare Sawyer. If for no other reason that Smokey might think that would be the most just "punishment".:goodpost: :thumbsup:

you know, putting that "disclaimer" in there doesnt actually make it okay to be rude to others. you may want to note that info b/c the next time you post such rudeness you will get points.

just to let you know, there's an unmarked spoiler in the quoted text of your post, halfrek. it's spoiler-tagged in the original poster's post (presumably not originally, but still...). maybe you could erase it so others don't see it. i'm pretty disappointed to have seen it. :(

just to let you know, there's an unmarked spoiler in the quoted text of your post, halfrek. it's spoiler-tagged in the original poster's post (presumably not originally, but still...). maybe you could erase it so others don't see it. i'm pretty disappointed to have seen it. :(

thanks for pointing that out. though i wouldn't worry too much about what you read as i think it is just speculation on the part of the OP. the only reason that i did font it in their post was that some may mistake it for an actual spoiler but i missed it in my post. :( i have since gone back and added spoiler font to the quoted part of my post, just in case. IMO it was just speculation and not an actual spoiler. :)

also, if someone KNOWS actual spoilers, i do not want to know if the part in question above is an ACTUAL spoiler. i try to remain as spoiler free as i can considering my moderating job. no. really. i may accidentally read something in a post i am editing but somehow manage to be surprised when i see the eppy. it is an art. ;)

Sawyer also puked his guts out (or so we are to think) after he killed Cooper... so he may not be "happy" about it. He may actually be contrite and be spared.
I agree with you myothercar. I wasn't happy to kill and I definitely don't think he will find any satisfaction in doing so. I think this will haunt in a different way than his parents' death has but it will haunt him nonetheless.

:goodpost: :thumbsup:
Thanks, Selene! I was kind of nervous about posting it but it just kept gnawing at me all day.

Thanks, Selene! I was kind of nervous about posting it but it just kept gnawing at me all day.
I am glad that you posted too. You made some excellent points! And it seems that Sawyer needs as much love and understanding as he can come by these days, especially around here!

I don't see Sawyer going anywhere, not yet anyway. He's clearly a fan favorite, but he's not THE fan favorite. Sorry, but it's just not true - and it's not true for ANY of the characters. It all depends on who you talk to; everyone has their favorites. I could go on about the number of people I speak to who love Jack or who love Sawyer or who love Locke. You get the point.

Frankly, Sawyer was boring the heck out of me this past season up until the last three or so episodes. For me, he WAS becoming nothing but eye candy and mooning over Kate. However, now that he has exorcised his demon of "Sawyer," maybe now we can begin to discover the real James Ford. That might be really interesting. However, I do agree with the other posters. I don't want a nice Sawyer, but I would like a man who at least acts like he cares about other peoples well-being.

On a side note: There is NO way that James is NOT responsible for Cooper's death. Of course he's responsible. You can't just excuse what he did or why he did it no matter how much he puked afterwards. He murdered an innocent man just several months earlier, and he has now murdered again. I like the character of Sawyer (and I love Josh), but I'm always amazed at how Sawyer's conduct can be completely swept under the rug as if it's perfectly normal behavior. It isn't.

Final thought: Sawyer will stick around until Season Four. In season four, all bets are off for ALL the characters, especially if it proves to be the last season.

I

I don't think Sawyer is gonna die because we don't know anything about the tampa job...;) and if kate is pregnant he's the father...so there's plenty of things to develop with him ...and third i wanna see him dealing with what he has just done (killing Cooper)

Sawyer is definitely making it into Season 4, as his recent development leaves much potential for the writers now.

I am just very excited to see how everything plays out in the season finale.

And I am hoping Sawyer will play more of a leader role, but with Jack back, does that mean there will be a split among the Losties?

Can't wait to find out...

Sawyer still have a lot to deal with not only flashback wise but on island, I just cant imagine the show without him. He'd better not die.

Sawyer needs to clarify his position with the Losties in the next few Episodes or he'll die. Or rather he should die then, if he ain't got no purpose! ^^ I don't want him to become the "guy who has to much fans to be written off the show, so he'll stay as eye candy" ^^

Sawyer still have a lot to deal with not only flashback wise but on island, I just cant imagine the show without him. He'd better not die.

Neither can I FS! I know he is not THE fan favorite, but at least for me, he is so integral to the show. There are so many scenes that are indelibly etched into the collective memory of Lost viewers that he happens to be a central part of...It would just truly not be the same show without him.
100%
Sawyer needs to clarify his position with the Losties in the next few Episodes or he'll die. Or rather he should die then, if he ain't got no purpose! ^^ I don't want him to become the "guy who has to much fans to be written off the show, so he'll stay as eye candy" ^^
I don't think you need to worry about that. As much as he's internally digesting all the sh*t that went down last week, I think he'll be pretty important to his fellow losties, ecpecially after he, and they, hear the tape. And after last week's performace, I think reducing him to eye candy is pretty much a slap in the face. But I hear what you're saying I think: you don't want him to stay on board just to retain the female (and male) viewers who like him for his looks. Ultimately, if they're looking for excellent actors to achor the show, they are not going to want to get rid of JH.

Sawyer needs to clarify his position with the Losties in the next few Episodes or he'll die. Or rather he should die then, if he ain't got no purpose! ^^ I don't want him to become the "guy who has to much fans to be written off the show, so he'll stay as eye candy" ^^

I don't think Sawyer could ever be just eye candy on this show. The TV landscape is full of good looking guys I couldn't care less about. Sawyer, OTOH, I find compelling to watch, and I do care what happens to him. I put that down to brilliant writing for the character, including a genuinely tragic back story, and to skillful, expressive acting by Josh Holloway... of which we saw ample evidence in "The Brig".

Of all the characters on Lost, I think Sawyer is the one I understand the best and that's part of what I enjoy about him. Not because I'm anything like him, but just because they've done such a great job developing him. As much as I love Kate, for example, there's still so much I don't understand about what makes her tick. The same with Jack. Both those characters seem more opaque to me, whereas Sawyer feels accessible. I'm not criticizing either the characters or the writers in saying that - it's not my intention at all, so please don't all jump on me. I'm just saying that Sawyer's character development on the island has been easy for me to follow because each of his flash-back episodes have seemed really helpful and relevant in leading me along the character's path.

After saying all that, I can't even imagine where he'll go from here. He seemed totally shattered at the end of this episode, and I have no idea how the process of putting himself back together again will go. I just read an awesome review of this episode on DarkUFO's home page that had this passage in it.

"It's hard to see where Sawyer goes from here. This killing didn't free him, it only trapped him back into the nightmare all traumatized children inhabit. He is literally a Man with No Name now."

That pretty much sums up how I see him at the moment... in a world of pain and confusion, but I do expect that going forward will be just as interesting for me to watch as it has been up to now. So I think they still have tons they can do with this character.

That review had a lot to say about Locke as well. I've never fully understood Locke, though I sympathize with his tragic past as well as Sawyer's. I understand his need to feel special, but there are twists and turns to how that relates to the island that leave me mystified... in a good way though. I can't wait to see where this character goes next too!

The fact that Sawyer DID kill Cooper means that he isn't going to die. Apparently you die on this show when you've been redeemed. Ana is an example of this.

Sawyer is going to have to deal with the consequences of his actions, which I'm all for personally, given Sawyer has had a very paltry set of storylines this season.


I just read an awesome review of this episode on DarkUFO's home page that had this passage in it.



That review did have some good insights into Sawyer's actions and character, well before it descended into an embarrassing bash fest of one particular character. :rolleyes:

I think Sawyer is one of the few people who is safely in the "Do not kill" camp, at least until the show runs closer to end. I really can't see them killing Jack/Sawyer/Locke anytime soon.

I don't believe anyone is safe. They need to stop pandering to the audience, I feel despite my dislinke of pikki that if there was a significant story to be told they should have finished it not just kill them off because people want it a true fan would have let them (TPTB) do what they wanted to with pikki, perhaps they should have hurried it along though.