What does this prove again? Why does he have to kill his dad in order to be shown more? I don't understand it.

I think it's about severing ties with the world and becoming one with the Island. Not all of the Others have to kill someone, but they have each had to do something to show that they have overcome their "baggage."

That's what Ben implied, but I think he's lying (as usual). If the Island "likes" good people, then I think Ben is trying to get Locke to do something that will break his connection with the Island so that Ben can be the special one again.

Perhaps Ben killed someone and he was showing that Locke couldn't do the same.

Perhaps to do with the eradication of Dharma (which seems to be part of next weeks ep)

Locke "brought" Cooper to the Island. Cooper is his mess. Locke's responsible for bringing him there, so he's responsible for taking care of it.

Look at it this way: if people can manifest stuff such as we've seen Locke do by unconsciously manifesting his father to the Island, then the Others do not want to have someone around who would be manifesting horrible things. This is probably why they got rid of Walt. In order for Locke to be included in their society, he has to show that he is going to face the nightmares of his past and get over them. Otherwise, the Others don't want someone who is apparently as powerful as Locke to be in their midst if he is going to be manifesting stuff like Cooper on a regular basis...

Killing Cooper was part of this - it showed that Locke was dealing with his past, but it also was showing that he was taking on the responsibility of dealing with what was his doing in the first place by manifesting Cooper to the Island. Richard provided him a way to accomplish this, and that is fine because Locke still orchestrated the death of his father through Sawyer, which shows he was taking responsibility for it. Plus, by bringing Sawyer into it, Locke was killing two birds with one stone - letting Sawyer get over his own past as well...

Just my thinking on it...

Since I have no idea what Ben's really motivations are, since he's always lying and manipulating, I have no idea why he wants Locke to kill Cooper. But I do wonder what he is telling everyone about it and why they think that Locke has to kill Cooper. It's very strange, and I definitely didn't understand.

How does killing make someone good? If the person deserves it? Who gets to decide who deserves to be killed and who doesn't? Ben?

It's got something to do with the island. I guess we can know that.... but WHAT does it have to do with the island?

It's got something to do with the island. I guess we can know that.... but WHAT does it have to do with the island?

Or, and this is a rather chilling and bizarre thought, what if that really wasn't Cooper in the first place? What if it was the Island or the Box or whatever creating some kind of a Golem or similitude of Cooper, but was there just to test Locke and Sawyer.... It would explain why Cooper was acting like a vicious animal, maybe... He seemed to act as if he was responding like he was a computer program almost... Maybe not, though. Maybe I'm just reading too much into it.

Look at it this way: if people can manifest stuff such as we've seen Locke do by unconsciously manifesting his father to the Island, then the Others do not want to have someone around who would be manifesting horrible things. This is probably why they got rid of Walt. In order for Locke to be included in their society, he has to show that he is going to face the nightmares of his past and get over them. Otherwise, the Others don't want someone who is apparently as powerful as Locke to be in their midst if he is going to be manifesting stuff like Cooper on a regular basis...

Uhh, you still think Locke manifested his dad? After Cooper explained how he was rammed into, then taken into an ambulance and probably drugged? Seems he was forcibly brought to the island, not conjured.

Uhh, you still think Locke manifested his dad? After Cooper explained how he was rammed into, then taken into an ambulance and probably drugged? Seems he was forcibly brought to the island, not conjured.

I'm not saying I believe anything Kevn. I was saying "IF" such and such, and offering the theory as a suggestion for tying together some of the loose threads. To tell the truth, I don't know what I believe if anything at all about this episode yet... There's a big difference between saying one believes something and putting some theory out there for speculation...

However, I do not discount the possibility that the Box or whatever it is works to manifest things through such mundane methods as having Cooper kidnapped by someone and brought to the Island. Look at how the Island manifested (possibly) Juliet's being free to come by having a bus hit her ex-husband just as she said would need to happen...

There are a lot of possible explanations for exactly how Cooper ended up on the Island, and all we have are two right now, both from fairly unreliable sources (Ben and Cooper). I say we wait it out and see what happens.

Bear with me, my wildly unsubstantiated theory:

I think the reason Locke can walk again is because he had his father killed on the island. If the island can somehow exist outside of time, all actions on the island can have effects throughout all of time. So if locke's father is dead on the island, in effect, he never existed. he was never able to push locke out the window, or con sawyer's parents, [or father john locke??] Maybe this is why Locke is "extremely special." He is somehow able to "tame" the time anomaly by killing his father without disappearing from existence. This explains locke's statement to Sawyer on the island, insinuating that he had never been paralyzed.

That's why the others all wanted to watch Locke kill his father. Logically (in their minds) Locke should die when his father dies, since dying on the island means he never lived. The fact that Locke is still alive, and able to walk, even though his father is dead would be a miracle to them.

Living outside of time on the island, maybe there are certain people who have the power to cause events to happen [those born ON the island? why island fertility is such an important goal for Ben?], and thus (almost) live forever on the island [by killing anyone who gets in their way?? Except you can't kill cancer]. Ben is the leader of the others because he [was] is able to do this. This also explains why Walt had to leave, he is too powerful on the island. I also believe Hurley has this power as well, and was able to cause something in the past to happen that would make the van start at the moment he needed it to.

Other examples of deaths on the island having effects throughout all of time - Yemi's body disappearing from the little plane forshadowed Eko's eventual death on the island. If Eko never existed, Yuri's body would not have been on the plane. Perhaps Christian Shepherd's body missing means he is still alive? If Ana Lucia never existed, she wouldn't have been able to go to Australia with CS, and maybe Shepherd would never have gone to Australia in the first place. If Libby never existed, she never would have been able to give Desmond her boat. This could explain why Mrs. Hawking and the Monk have to exist. They need to help get Desmond to the island so he can turn the fail-safe key; they became necessary when Libby died.

What does this prove again? Why does he have to kill his dad in order to be shown more? I don't understand it.


Like most of Lost, it makes no sense and most likely never will.

You have a good theory. The Island is more than just time, its metaphysical. Locke maybe able to walk through time, like Darkman or the Flash. The Flash vs Superman conversation Charlie and Hugo has in the previous Ep of Lost. My son told me that Brian k Vaughn was brought to the Lost production. Mr Vaughn speciality is getting to the plot and keeping it on track. Mr Vaughn wrote Catch-22.

Lost is a complicated mess and TPTB are bring in the big guns to get the messed cleaned up.

Locke "brought" Cooper to the Island. Cooper is his mess. Locke's responsible for bringing him there, so he's responsible for taking care of it.

Look at it this way: if people can manifest stuff such as we've seen Locke do by unconsciously manifesting his father to the Island, then the Others do not want to have someone around who would be manifesting horrible things. This is probably why they got rid of Walt. In order for Locke to be included in their society, he has to show that he is going to face the nightmares of his past and get over them. Otherwise, the Others don't want someone who is apparently as powerful as Locke to be in their midst if he is going to be manifesting stuff like Cooper on a regular basis...

Killing Cooper was part of this - it showed that Locke was dealing with his past, but it also was showing that he was taking on the responsibility of dealing with what was his doing in the first place by manifesting Cooper to the Island. Richard provided him a way to accomplish this, and that is fine because Locke still orchestrated the death of his father through Sawyer, which shows he was taking responsibility for it. Plus, by bringing Sawyer into it, Locke was killing two birds with one stone - letting Sawyer get over his own past as well...

Just my thinking on it...

Hmm, ok, this is the only explanation that makes sense to me so far. As I was watching Ben goade Locke into killing Coop, there was a real, "come to the dark side" feeling to it. And when John walked away, it was wierdly Jesus like. I know they can't really be in Hell, but Ben is pretty devily freaky in this episode. And the kids! Did you see Cindy was standing there with the kids, they were going to view that, just like Juliet's trial. How awful, to do that to children-to have to see that.

I don't know how much of this is part of an elaborate con, that's what makes it hard to gauge, but boy, Ben sure is creepy.

Or, and this is a rather chilling and bizarre thought, what if that really wasn't Cooper in the first place? What if it was the Island or the Box or whatever creating some kind of a Golem or similitude of Cooper, but was there just to test Locke and Sawyer.... It would explain why Cooper was acting like a vicious animal, maybe... He seemed to act as if he was responding like he was a computer program almost... Maybe not, though. Maybe I'm just reading too much into it.
I thought the same thing. It seemed like everything Cooper did was designed solely to bait Locke and Sawyer and drive them to kill him. Why would the real Cooper try to get himself killed?

Maybe I just can't rap my mind around the metaphysical and am too much of a realist, but I definitely think there is someone, as in a larger organization not a single person, that is responsible for Cooper's trip to the "island". Cooper's explanation seems very similar to Juliet's experience, except that Juliet was given something orally and Cooper intraveneously. Either way, they both were drugged and woke up on the island. Whatever the case, whoever (or whatever) is staging these elaborate events sure has a thing for vehicle accidents!

I also think that Cooper really does think he's in hell due to the fact that he was in a car accident and then he sees Locke, who he believes died on flight 815.

What I'm wondering is whether Ben knows that Locke brought Cooper to the island or whether he believes that Locke brought Cooper to the island. Could someone higher up be conning one of the greatest con men of all?? Could Ben be a test subject himself and not even know it?

By the way, Desmundo, I love your avatar! Super Jin!

That's what Ben implied, but I think he's lying (as usual). If the Island "likes" good people, then I think Ben is trying to get Locke to do something that will break his connection with the Island so that Ben can be the special one again.

Interesting thoughts....Ben does strike me as pretty desperate right now. Ben also made it something of a spectacle of Locke's inability to kill his father....

I REALLY like this theory, Minestrone, well thought out and very interesting ideas. The idea that Locke is alive and walking because his father died on the island is just great!

Perhaps it's also a good explanation as to why the passengers of 815 are alive even though their bodies are found under water in the plane as well, maybe the crash on the island is some way of saving themselves, but they can't save themselves because they crashed, but somehow they are alive because the plane didn't crash, but... well you get my drift.

think this may also explain the appearance of the 'Catch 22' reference, a double-bind - something they can't get out of, but maybe they can in this case. Wow this is doin' my head in!

I don't get it, I thought the others weren't killers according to Ben, now Locke has to kill his father in order to prove himself to them. Doesn't make any sense.

This explains locke's statement to Sawyer on the island, insinuating that he had never been paralyzed.

Locke insinuated no such thing. He actaully said "Not any more" to the question from Sawyer whether he is a cripple. This to me clearly means "yes, I was, but i am not any more". It does not mean "I never was" as you say here.

Locke was definitely paralyzed. No doubt about it.

So, here's a re-cap of the various theories as to why Locke had to kill Cooper so far in this thread (or at least it's an attempt on my part to cover this, I may have overlooked some, so forgive me if I have):

1. The Island exists in a unique setting that is not entirely in synch with the rest of the world, so the laws of time and space don't work the same, which means that Locke already had killed Cooper (or had him killed), and this is why he can walk... (I'm admittedly a bit fuzzy on the logic of this, but I'm trying to present it fairly, please let me know if I'm off).

2. Ben set Locke up to fail at something in order to undermine Locke's popularity among the Others so that Ben could stay on top. Locke "had" to kill Cooper, because Ben knew he wouldn't, and it was all a big con game.

3. Locke manifested Cooper to come to the Island, and since he's responsible for this, it is his duty to clean his mess up. Killing an obvious human piece of trash is in accord with the Others' moral code. Plus, it may be that the Others have had to deal in the past with other similar manifestations from the Box by members of their community, and over the years have grown used to requiring that whoever manifested a particularly nasty person to come to the Island through the Box would have to be the one to take responsibility for "cleaning up" their own mess...

4. Cooper isn't really Cooper, but is another manifestation of the Island's or the Box's powers. In other words, the Cooper we saw last night was almost the same thing as Mr. Eko's brother Yemi who appeared to him just before he was killed by Smokey... Killing this "Smokey Cooper" was a test for Locke, just as asking for forgiveness from Yemi was a test for Eko.

So, am I leaving any theory out? Please jump in and add anything else that might be missing here.

1. The Island exists in a unique setting that is not entirely in synch with the rest of the world, so the laws of time and space don't work the same, which means that Locke already had killed Cooper (or had him killed), and this is why he can walk... (I'm admittedly a bit fuzzy on the logic of this, but I'm trying to present it fairly, please let me know if I'm off).

I'm not sure on the logic of it myself. My idea is basically that what happens on the island has repurcussions throughout time, past and future. Locke can walk because Cooper is dead and was never able to push him out of a window.

Maybe another way to explain this is that Locke is "extremely special" because he is able to access his own alternate timelines. The man Locke is on the island is who Locke would have become had he never known Cooper. To fully realize this version of himself he had to have Cooper killed. The fact that Locke could walk and knew survival skills could all be because Locke kills Cooper. Maybe "only fools are enslaved by time and space" means that time doesn't exist on the island, and all things happen at the same time.

Prediction: Locke has excorcised his father demons, but has replaced one con-man father with another con-man father figure. Ben will betray Locke in a horrible way.

Locke "brought" Cooper to the Island. Cooper is his mess. Locke's responsible for bringing him there, so he's responsible for taking care of it.

Look at it this way: if people can manifest stuff such as we've seen Locke do by unconsciously manifesting his father to the Island, then the Others do not want to have someone around who would be manifesting horrible things. This is probably why they got rid of Walt. In order for Locke to be included in their society, he has to show that he is going to face the nightmares of his past and get over them. Otherwise, the Others don't want someone who is apparently as powerful as Locke to be in their midst if he is going to be manifesting stuff like Cooper on a regular basis...

Killing Cooper was part of this - it showed that Locke was dealing with his past, but it also was showing that he was taking on the responsibility of dealing with what was his doing in the first place by manifesting Cooper to the Island. Richard provided him a way to accomplish this, and that is fine because Locke still orchestrated the death of his father through Sawyer, which shows he was taking responsibility for it. Plus, by bringing Sawyer into it, Locke was killing two birds with one stone - letting Sawyer get over his own past as well...

Just my thinking on it...

So pre-meditated murder of someone tied and defenseless is ok? It's not ok. One does not transform themselves into something better through murder, one transforms oneself into something worse.

I don't get it, I thought the others weren't killers according to Ben, now Locke has to kill his father in order to prove himself to them. Doesn't make any sense.


Maybe Locke not killing Cooper is part of what is suppose to happen. Maybe Locke needed to con someone into killing him instead.

That's what Ben implied, but I think he's lying (as usual). If the Island "likes" good people, then I think Ben is trying to get Locke to do something that will break his connection with the Island so that Ben can be the special one again.Interesting theory! And it would be a great change of pace for the show if Ben actually wasn't omniscient.

But then I wonder what Ben told his people when they came out to watch the murder...

Swoozie Kurtz is behind *everything*. Including the colin72 hatebot.

That's what Ben implied, but I think he's lying (as usual). If the Island "likes" good people, then I think Ben is trying to get Locke to do something that will break his connection with the Island so that Ben can be the special one again.

I agree. If Locke killed Cooper then he'd lose. Ben was taunting him when he left, assuming he'd kill Cooper, exactly like Locke taunted James to get him to follow to the Black Rock.

I'm not sure on the logic of it myself. My idea is basically that what happens on the island has repurcussions throughout time, past and future. Locke can walk because Cooper is dead and was never able to push him out of a window.

But if Cooper was never alive, wouldn't James Ford have never been Sawyer, and thus never on the plane? Cooper would have to be lying, which really renders most of the episode pointless.

I like the theory, but I think it creates too many paradoxes at this point.

It is the way for Locke to prove that he is worthy of joining the Ben's camp. Ben knows that this will be the hardest thing for Locke to do, but if he is able to do it then he has shown Ben the Free Will to make a decision to join them.

Personally I think the whole thing is going to lead to a big con and once again we will see Locke in his desperate attempt to be accepted and find his destiny be used as a pawn.

But the actual killing is a symbol that Locke has let go and taken their advice. Much the same way that Ben wanted to get Jack to perform the surgery of his own Free Will, he is getting Locke to join of his.

So, here's a re-cap of the various theories as to why Locke had to kill Cooper so far in this thread (or at least it's an attempt on my part to cover this, I may have overlooked some, so forgive me if I have):

1. The Island exists in a unique setting that is not entirely in synch with the rest of the world, so the laws of time and space don't work the same, which means that Locke already had killed Cooper (or had him killed), and this is why he can walk... (I'm admittedly a bit fuzzy on the logic of this, but I'm trying to present it fairly, please let me know if I'm off).

2. Ben set Locke up to fail at something in order to undermine Locke's popularity among the Others so that Ben could stay on top. Locke "had" to kill Cooper, because Ben knew he wouldn't, and it was all a big con game.

3. Locke manifested Cooper to come to the Island, and since he's responsible for this, it is his duty to clean his mess up. Killing an obvious human piece of trash is in accord with the Others' moral code. Plus, it may be that the Others have had to deal in the past with other similar manifestations from the Box by members of their community, and over the years have grown used to requiring that whoever manifested a particularly nasty person to come to the Island through the Box would have to be the one to take responsibility for "cleaning up" their own mess...

4. Cooper isn't really Cooper, but is another manifestation of the Island's or the Box's powers. In other words, the Cooper we saw last night was almost the same thing as Mr. Eko's brother Yemi who appeared to him just before he was killed by Smokey... Killing this "Smokey Cooper" was a test for Locke, just as asking for forgiveness from Yemi was a test for Eko.

So, am I leaving any theory out? Please jump in and add anything else that might be missing here.

I like #3, if only because it (surprisingly) seems the easiest.

#1 is a cool theory, but opens up a lot of paradoxical issues that I think would be too complicated and sci-fi-ish for the bulk of Lost fans to swallow.

#2 adds a rather gruesome, cold-blooded cult mentality to the Others. Killing in cold blood in front of children, as a "test" to see who is more special? I can't buy that. Ben claims they are "the good guys," and I think he and the rest of them actually believe that.

#4 (Cooper being a smokey manifestation and a test for John) would also be too complicated for the bulk of the audience -- why the elaborate back-story that makes John's dad Sawyer's con-man? If it's a test for John, why can he get around it by having Sawyer kill him instead? If it's smokey in disguise, John can still wrap him in burlap and carry him over his shoulder? Too far-fetched.

#3 is still a little supernatural, but they seem to be leading up to some supernatural explanation, regardless. A phenomenon that somehow conjures/manifests/transports people and or objects to the island. What if the Dharma folks stumbled upon this phenomenon and managed to "bring" family, friends, loved ones to the island by sheer will? The Others may actually be those people that were willed there and know that the power of the island must be managed/controlled or these conjurations get out of hand. And that when one of them "brings" an outsider to the island, he/she is responsible for dealing with it. Of course this raises other questions...

Using the framework from one of my theories, http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=77725 , I would definitely view cooper as part of the ironies of the island. I think people view the others and the island as either really good or really bad, and they just haven't made up their mind about that. I would postulate that the island and the others are microcosms of the world as a whole in respect to their nature. They are both good and bad, yin and yang, they tend to balance out and that is the important part to keep in mind. Faith is in my mind the central theme on lost. Think about this now, the island brought cooper there. Cooper is the one thing that has been plagueing Locke and preventing him from living his life. Cooper is the reason for Locke's paralysis. Ben also said something that remains in the forefront of my mind about a gesture of freewill. Well that freewill is the faith in the island. For Desmond it was not exactly his turning the key, but chosing not to fix things in the past with Penny in order to return to the island to turn the key(view my theory if you want a further explanation about this). For Locke it would definitely be to kill his father. The writers have made it clear that Locke could never kill his father. Killing him has only strengthened his connection to the island. As was stated, a person whose spine was not working pre-island and now is, is very special. The reaction by the others to Locke only compounds that statement. I do think ben feels threatened by Lockes potential. I don't think Ben wants to help him but knows more about the "box" and understood that Locke was supposed to kill Cooper. Ben kept Locke with them because of the island and how the others view him. The only chance Ben had of showing the others that Locke wasn't as special as he is was to hope that he didn't kill Cooper.

I know this might be a little confusing so I'll sum it all up. So the conclusion is that Cooper was brought there by whatever means for Locke to kill him. Heck it might even be possible that Sawyer's only there to kill Cooper for Locke. The point is that there is a greater purpose for Locke. He is the most spiritual of all the Lostie characters by far. He has had visions, dream visions, encountered smokey, been accepted by the others and blown up the most stuff. The equation to me has something to do with faith equaling power.

P.S. Desmond - turned the key,saved the world, traveled back in time, see's the future
Ecko - ecountered smokey, had visions, talked to what looked like his dead brother?
Locke - had visions, dream visions, encountered smokey, been accepted by the others and blown up the most stuff, walked with a broken spine

Faith is in my mind the central theme on lost.

I've thought the same thing. I recently bought seasons 1 & 2 on DVD, watched them straight through over the past 2 weeks. You really get a better sense for the over-arching themes written into the show when there are no breaks/delays between the episodes.

Each character has placed his or her faith in something that has driven them much of their lives, or at least played a part in driving them to the island. John and Eko clearly recognized something significant about the island, and once they did, they readily placed their faith in it.

I believe it was during the second season that almost every episode featured one character that either admitted to not being a good person, or being told by someone else they weren't. The season then ended with Ben telling Michael "we're the good guys."

Maybe this whole "test" for John played out EXACTLY the way Ben and Richard intended it to, and John passed. By not killing his father in cold blood and having Sawyer do it proves that John is a good guy. It also serves to "cleanse" John of his anger toward his father so he can move on with his destiny.

I definitely think Ben was setting Locke up, as Alpert indicated. He knew he wouldn't kill his father and would look like a failure, which secures Ben's place as leader, for now.

I also think killing his own father would have been a bad move, in terms of his connection to the Island.

However, two things worry me:

a. The point of Locke's silly-*** ayahuasca vision, as Boone clearly indicated, is that Locke is useless trying to help anyone until he cleans up his own mess. How was conning Sawyer into killing Cooper that?

b. There's a weird reverse corellation between Eko and Locke here: when he was a boy, Eko took the gun from his brother, committing murder for him and taking the "sin" on himself. Here, Locke did approximately the opposite. What are the moral ramifications of that?

In their radio interview (it's in the Spoilers section), Damon and Carlton indicated that people hoping Locke would grow his balls back wouldn't be disappointed by last night's epi. I actually AM feeling disappointed. I feel like his plan was a cop-out, and fixed a moral stain on Sawyer that Locke should have born himself... So, still waiting for Locke's balls, basically. Good performances though, and I'm hopeful he does clean up his own damn mess, eventually.

By not killing his father in cold blood and having Sawyer do it proves that John is a good guy. It also serves to "cleanse" John of his anger toward his father so he can move on with his destiny.

Awesome point. I think that's exactly what the writers were trying to get across.

By not killing his father in cold blood and having Sawyer do it proves that John is a good guy. It also serves to "cleanse" John of his anger toward his father so he can move on with his destiny.

Awesome point. I think that's exactly what the writers were trying to get across.

I hope that's not what the writers are trying to get across. If it is, I am so finished with this show! Locke getting someone else to kill Cooper proves that he's a bad man, not a good one. Not only is he just as responsible for Cooper's death, but he's responsible for putting the burden on Sawyer as well.

b. There's a weird reverse corellation between Eko and Locke here: when he was a boy, Eko took the gun from his brother, committing murder for him and taking the "sin" on himself. Here, Locke did approximately the opposite. What are the moral ramifications of that?
I'm glad to hear you say that. It's the first thing I thought of when I watched The Brig. I always respected Eko for essentially saving his brother's soul as well as his life. I despise Locke for what he did to Sawyer.

In their radio interview (it's in the Spoilers section), Damon and Carlton indicated that people hoping Locke would grow his balls back wouldn't be disappointed by last night's epi. I actually AM feeling disappointed. I feel like his plan was a cop-out, and fixed a moral stain on Sawyer that Locke should have born himself... So, still waiting for Locke's balls, basically.
I was extremely disappointed in Damon and Carlton when I heard they had said that. If this is their idea of Locke showing some balls, then I am seriously concerned about the ethical/philosophical direction D&C are taking this series.

In a way Locke is shifting the burden to Sawyer. But let's all not forget that Sawyer in a sense became the man that destroyed his life. He had been waiting to kill cooper since he was a child. Sawyer even killed a man in cold blood that he thought was the real Sawyer. In my opinion it was Sawyers place to kill Cooper more than Locke's. Locke sentanced cooper to his death with sawyer. Locke had opportunities to turn Cooper in several times and instead passed them up time and time again. Locke couldn't forget about his father, let alone kill him. Sawyer had been looking forward to that moment. Maybe this doesn't make Locke a good man, but he sure is a great one. He played right into how the island works and the mythologies seen throught lost. It seems like an extraordinary coincidence that Locke and Sawyer are both on the island with the same man that destroyed their lives.

If this is their idea of Locke showing some balls, then I am seriously concerned about the ethical/philosophical direction D&C are taking this series.

I hear ya. To his credit, in the past few weeks TOQ hasn't made any statement stronger than the fact that Locke is currently "crazy" and more "fun" to play (and I'm sure that's the case, who wants to cry and push buttons all day!). So maybe he understands the character better than the writers do.

A lot of good ideas in this thread, but I think a key point that needs to be discussed is not why Locke had to kill his father, but why Ben said that Locke had to kill his father. I seriously doubt Ben's intentions towards Locke are good, which means that Locke should think long and hard before he does anything Ben suggests.

What we do know is Locke has a communion of sorts with the Island and Ben is curious, even to the point of being jealous. While Locke walks, Ben is reduced to being an invalid.

In the end, I wouldn't be surprised if Ben yearns to regain whatever communion he had with the Island, and will stop at nothing to sabotage Locke's own relationship with the Island. The key, is Ben can't commit a "sin" outright that would eliminate Locke as a rival. That's why we see Ben use of cons and the constant jumping through hoops that he makes people go through to accomplish anything.

People that are a threat to Ben can only be eliminated if they voluntarilly put themselves in moral Catch 22s that will result in their damnation.

I honestly think there is no manifestation in a magical box. Ben himself said it was just a metaphor. In my opinion, Ben is telling Locke that Locke's dad is weighing too heavily on his mind, and it is Locke's problem to fix. The reason? Possibly because Locke is special ON the island. Ben eluded to this when he told him "When you came around, I began to feel better". He needs Locke. Bad.

I think Ben's "special" label for Locke is synonymous with the pregnancy miracles taking place. For whatever reason, on this island, Locke has healing capabilities. Richard even says to Locke the pregnancy phenomenon is just the tip of the iceberg.

I think Locke was asked to kill his father to demonstrate that he has become totally ruthless--severed ties with what "the world" thinks of as morality. Once he does that there's no turning back.

Sort of like being required to do a drive-by as gang initiation.

Originally Posted by Lost Landy http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/images/FuselageGreen/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1527884#post1527884)
By not killing his father in cold blood and having Sawyer do it proves that John is a good guy. It also serves to "cleanse" John of his anger toward his father so he can move on with his destiny.

Well, Locke didn't seem too hesitant about "killing" Mikhail. And to my knowledge he doesn't know that Mikhail is not dead, so I didn't get Locke telling Sawyer that he was not a killer. Locke seemed kinda proud of having done away with Patchy, judging from the way he announced it to Ben.
100%
I think Locke was asked to kill his father to demonstrate that he has become totally ruthless--severed ties with what "the world" thinks of as morality. Once he does that there's no turning back.

Sort of like being required to do a drive-by as gang initiation.

Yep, now they know this about him, (the Others I mean), and so John cannot exactly go back into the real world and, you know, tell. Neither can Michael really, with Ana-Lucia and Libby's blood on his hands. I think that's why they were willing to let Michael go, of course, that release could have been a ruse.
100%

People that are a threat to Ben can only be eliminated if they voluntarilly put themselves in moral Catch 22s that will result in their damnation.

That is how is seems, how that would trick whoever the morality judge is, I don't know, but it seems to be how things work, something to do with someone wanting to do something, not being ordered to.

Coop being some kind of manifestation and not flesh and blood Coop would explain the Others being okay with killing Coop in front of everyone, including children. If all the Others knew it wasn't really Coop, then it wouldn't be quite so terrible. This would jive with the Moriah story that Desmond and the Head Monk discussed. God knew he wasn't going to allow Isaac to die, and it seems like an unfair test without that knowledge, but as the monk explained, that's the meat of the test really.

I have always wondered about that story however, was the test that Abraham should have known that God wouldn't allow him to kill his son in the end, or that Abraham should have given his son up to God willingly just out of pure faith that his son would be cared for in Heaven? And does this parallel what Ben tells Locke at all?

Locke getting someone else to kill Cooper proves that he's a bad man, not a good one. Not only is he just as responsible for Cooper's death, but he's responsible for putting the burden on Sawyer as well.



I'm not so sure. After all, nobody forced Sawyer to kill Cooper. Locke just gave him the opportunity.

Ben made that up to embarrass Locke, but if Locke comes back with a dead Cooper, Ben has to keep his word.

What does this prove again? Why does he have to kill his dad in order to be shown more? I don't understand it.
To fit into the ongoing pagan mythology, the island demands a sacrifice. This is why Ben has a date, time and a pillar. Locke eventually understands this, and uses Sawyer to complete the task. This might explain the hot air balloon, the small plane crash, and the brig wreck. Maybe Desmond has interfered with the next fated death (Charlie), and Cooper had to be a replacement.

remember how ben said until you are free, i cannot show you the box, well i watched episode 3 of season 3 and in the previously on lost part when locke stoped pushing the button desmond said " you've killed us all" and locke says "No. I've set you free". Maybe Locke is already free. but to answer your question i think locke having to kill his dad is alot like the isacc story where his father had to sacrifice his son, and his faith in god saved him from having to kill his son. Just a thought tho