So, we finally learn her name is Naomi Dorrit. And they she was sent by Penny, hired by her actually, to use a GPS system to find Desmond. Sounds like Penny did plant something on the Elizabeth after all. The ship Naomi's helicopter took off from was 80 miles (kilometers?) away, and she almost didn't see the island.

Also, the plane was found in an ocean trench way down.

So, what do you all think of this? Does this give us more to go on, in terms of where the island is and some of the larger questions?

I hate to think this, but, the conversation about the satelite phone and how it is so unusual leads me to believe that there is time differences between the Penny rescue and Island time. This really does bug me because I didn't think or like that this idea was going on, but, how else do we deal with this? Perhaps just technology that is available to the ultra rich, like Widmore?

That's what I thought too.. We're looking at technology that doesn't yet exist, at least to the survivors..

It was strange that she said to Sayid, "Remind me not to rescue you".. I can't figure out what that could mean..

From how she described the island, it sounds like an invisibility shield.. But can we believe everything she said?

I didn't even think of the time issue. Yes, it could be a time issue. I mean, they are certainly made that the most high tech phone in existence, didn't they?!?
I don't know if it gives us more information on where the island really is. We know that the plane (supposedly 815) was found off the coast of Bali, right?

I am definitely confused about how she couldn't see the island at all. There is something really fishy going on. Not that we didn't already know that.

It was a joke when Naomi said "Remind me not to rescue you". She said it cause she had proof that she wasn't lying and that she did not appreciate that Sayid was interrogating her.

Sounds like Penny did plant something on the Elizabeth after all.

Absolutely not, IMO. I don't think Penny had anything to do with that sailboat. Her father did. He arranged that "chance meeting" between Des & Libby....because Des would not accept any "gifts" or hush money from HIM....he put Libby on the track to meet Des...and offer up "her" boat. Charles wanted Des to sail away forever....and I don't imagine Penny was anywhere near that sailboat when it departed. The GPS coordinates Naomi was given came from Penny's arctic team finding of the magnetic anomoly from the Season 2 finale. THAT is what Naomi was homing in on...not the Elizabeth.

As I stated in a thread last week...as to the "finding of Flight 815"...and that all the passengers body's were found dead inside. I think that was all a set up by Widmore/Hanso/Piak/Dharma etc...to throw off the outside world's media coverage as to where the "real" 815 crash landed. It's 4 miles down....too far & deep to try and salvage...and too deep to try to recover the bodies....and thus....no proof needed to satisfy those loved ones who wanted to confirm the death of their friend & family members. I think it will come out that Widmore/Hanso/Piak/Dharma etc owns Oceanic Airlines, and it's possible they hauled a "815 look alike" out over the deepest trench they could find and dumped it overboard....so they could broadcast back "proof" that 815 was in a watery grave from the Widmore/Hanso/Piak/Dharma etc owned search and rescue sub. Poof...problem solved.

The fact that "somebody" went to all the trouble to cover up the actual crash....means that Widmore/Hanso/Piak/Dharma etc have no intention of the Losties EVER getting back to the real "outside" world. And who would believe a word they said if they DO get off the island?

Which I think is exactly what will happen to Walt & Michael when/if they actually do reach civilization...Michael will try to tell the world about how he and Walt survived the crash of 815...lived on a crazy island with polar bears and smoke monsters and weird cult-like people who were kidnapping their children and running tests on them. Well...they will write Michael off as a crazy loon, take Walt away from him and institutionalize him....a spokesperson for Oceanic will say that "Michael and Walt Porter had tickets to Flight 815, however, it was confirmed that they never boarded the flight....and to come out of hiding now, with these unbelieveable tales of survival, is in our summation, a sad and regrettable incident. We hope that Mr. porter can get psychiatric help...and stop dredging up painful memories for the families of the departed passengers of Flight 815".

And no one will believe Michael.....





Except for.....Penny.

It sounded like she was just checking out something she saw when she crashed - which may mean she didn't have time to radio back to the ship what she had found - which means they will assume she is lost at sea since they believe there is no land around.

I thought the technology was for the ultra-rich, as suggested above. Maybe the Iraqi military doesn't have the highest-tech stuff like the U.S. military does.

Also, when the phone was shown in last week's episode, apparently Apple (or someone, don't quote me on it) was peeved that their phone was on the show, and it was shown not working. So, the real technology is only a couple of years away from when the show is taking place.

As for her not seeing the island until the clouds cleared - could Desmond have done something psychically to cause that to happen? Simultaneously to having the vision of her?

It was a joke when Naomi said "Remind me not to rescue you". She said it cause she had proof that she wasn't lying and that she did not appreciate that Sayid was interrogating her.

It was a bit of sarcasm. I believe her because she didn't pause or look away while speaking. Plus, it's pretty hard to make up stuff like that on the spot. And she told the guys a lot more than what was revealed to us the viewers.

MamaThor says she had spunk!

Perhaps just technology that is available to the ultra rich, like Widmore?

The ultra rich or special forces, I imagine. I figured it just meant that her group was pretty well-connected or covert or something.

I gotta agree with Ator. I think the recovery survey was done by a group backed by a corporation, like oh say, Mittelos or Paik Industries or Widmore? They could misreport their findings easily enough.

Well, I thought it was significant that Naomi said "3 days ago" and in this episode we saw other events that occurred 3 days ago. Now, I don't know how anything with Locke and the Others could have caused Naomi to crash, but I don't think it was a coincidence about the 3 days.

The fact that "somebody" went to all the trouble to cover up the actual crash....means that Widmore/Hanso/Piak/Dharma etc have no intention of the Losties EVER getting back to the real "outside" world. And who would believe a word they said if they DO get off the island?
Oh yeah, I've been gung ho on the conspiracy theory since these powerful daddies began coming out of the woodwork, and last week only cemented that for me. Nothing changed this week. I think your Libby idea is debatable, and I hope we'll get to see her again to learn the truth. If one subscribes to the time travel ideas (I don't really), you could think that since Desmond told his friend in the bar all about his time on the island, the button, etc., Penny knew Desmond was going to crash on the island and set it up to track him in advance.

The GPS coordinates Naomi was given came from Penny's arctic team finding of the magnetic anomoly from the Season 2 finale. THAT is what Naomi was homing in on...not the Elizabeth.If this is the case, the question remains as to why they would ever even think to connect an electromagnetic anomaly with Desmond that should be on a sailboat or whatever out in the middle of the ocean. :shrug: It doesn't make sense & it doesn't add up to me. Someone knows more than they should.

It sounded like she was just checking out something she saw when she crashed - which may mean she didn't have time to radio back to the ship what she had found - which means they will assume she is lost at sea since they believe there is no land around.Good point! :thumbsup:

ETA Also, last week Naomi told Mikhail in Italian that she was not alone. If she's honest & on the up and up then why didn't she tell our beach crew that information???

i think Sayid's comment about the technology was a hint about a time difference on and off the island. that would explain why noone can see the island, maybe it only exists in one timeline, and there is some strange means of accesing it.

If this is the case, the question remains as to why they would ever even think to connect an electromagnetic anomaly with Desmond that should be on a sailboat or whatever out in the middle of the ocean. :shrug: It doesn't make sense & it doesn't add up to me. Someone knows more than they should.

I assume we'll learn eventually, but for now we have no information that we can tie up to Penny knowing what to look for. For the record, I think that theories that Desmond looped back in time again and this time told Penny, "Oh, and when I go missing in the Pacific Ocean, be sure to look for an electromagnetic anomoly," are completely silly.

Naomi said that they found the plane in a trench off the shore of Bali, which as far as I know is not on the way from Sidney to LA. Why would anyone even look for wreckage of a flight that disappeared over the Pacific in the Indian Ocean? This just doesn't make any sense.

Also, Anthony Cooper told Sawyer that he thought that Locke died when his plane crashed in the Pacific. I think that it is safe to assume that if a plane was presumed lost over the pacific turned up in the Indian Ocean, it would have been a huge news story and Cooper would know about it.

All of this leads to a couple of (speculative) things:

- It made sense to Naomi that Oceanic 815 was found off the shore of Bali
--- which would mean that the flight was not going from Oz to LA

- If we believe Naomi, then maybe Cooper is a manifestation of John's mind/Smokie, since he believes the same facts that John does.

Naomi said that they found the plane in a trench off the shore of Bali, which as far as I know is not on the way from Sidney to LA. Why would anyone even look for wreckage of a flight that disappeared over the Pacific in the Indian Ocean? This just doesn't make any sense.Bali is kind of right on the border of the Indian & Pacific, just North of Australia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bali

Another possibility maybe...
In an alternate universe, something caused flight 815 to crash in Bali which means 815 was most likely not heading to LA, maybe Korea instead? And perhaps the technology advancements are caused by the same event/events responsible for a different route of 815.
I am guessing that if is the future than it is not a great deal into the future, I mean it cant be that far or Penny would not be around anymore, and Naomi would be asking Desmond why he has not aged.

If this is the case, the question remains as to why they would ever even think to connect an electromagnetic anomaly with Desmond that should be on a sailboat or whatever out in the middle of the ocean. :shrug: It doesn't make sense & it doesn't add up to me. Someone knows more than they should.

Charle Widmore wanted Desmond out of his daughter's life permanently. What better place to have him stranded?

It's likely Penny learned (possibly covertly) what her father was up to...after suspecting Charles of orchestrating Desmond's mysterious disappearance at sea.

It's possible Pen did some digging into her father's affairs and found out Des was sent to a top secret "research facility", and was "imprisoned" in a hatch/jail cell, where he would never be heard from again. Perhaps she found out about the island's mysterious "cloaking"....and found out that the island's magnetic properties may cause its location to be revealed. She didn't want to tip off "Daddy" that she was intent on finding Desmond...so she secretly hired the arctic team of Portugese trackers....and secretly hired Naomi and her team once she got confirmation on the anomolies location.

I think this may all be cleared up when/if we get a Penny Flashback eppy. But I think there's a reason why the connection between the magnetic anomoly discovery and it leading to Desmond's location has been left so vague at this point in the story.

Yeah well until any of that gets confirmed its still makes no sense. As far as anyone knows right now there would be no reason at all for Desmond to be where he is. (Except that he's psychic and Dharmites like that! ;))

I would also think that the losties might want to get on one of the others' boats and head out towards the freighter that is only 80 miles away. They arent real creative when it comes to trying to get off the island.

I think that Penny was tracking a magnetic anomoly because she overheard/snooped and discovered information about this island and its magnetic properties from her father, or someone/something connected to his company. She put 2 and 2 together and came up with Daddy wants to get rid of Desmond + Desmond went on Daddy's boat race + Daddy's company owns some wierd island where they do magnetic experiments, but that is well hidden = Daddy stranded Desmond there to keep him away. After that deduction, she started looking for magnetic spikes or anomolies and happened upon the coordinates when Des didn't hit the button.

Theres only one thing wrong with that phone, if it's SO advanced why is it a giant brick like the Simon? If it was really advanced it would have been the size of one of them Apollo bars.

The wreckage was in the bottom of a 4 mile deep trench. I think that's what she said.

How'd they find that?

The wreckage was in the bottom of a 4 mile deep trench. I think that's what she said.

How'd they find that?
100%
The wreckage was in the bottom of a 4 mile deep trench. I think that's what she said.

How'd they find it?

By repetition?
By repetition?

The board is acting up again because it's busy.

Absolutely not, IMO. I don't think Penny had anything to do with that sailboat. Her father did. He arranged that "chance meeting" between Des & Libby....because Des would not accept any "gifts" or hush money from HIM....he put Libby on the track to meet Des...and offer up "her" boat. Charles wanted Des to sail away forever....and I don't imagine Penny was anywhere near that sailboat when it departed. The GPS coordinates Naomi was given came from Penny's arctic team finding of the magnetic anomoly from the Season 2 finale. THAT is what Naomi was homing in on...not the Elizabeth.

As I stated in a thread last week...as to the "finding of Flight 815"...and that all the passengers body's were found dead inside. I think that was all a set up by Widmore/Hanso/Piak/Dharma etc...to throw off the outside world's media coverage as to where the "real" 815 crash landed. It's 4 miles down....too far & deep to try and salvage...and too deep to try to recover the bodies....and thus....no proof needed to satisfy those loved ones who wanted to confirm the death of their friend & family members. I think it will come out that Widmore/Hanso/Piak/Dharma etc owns Oceanic Airlines, and it's possible they hauled a "815 look alike" out over the deepest trench they could find and dumped it overboard....so they could broadcast back "proof" that 815 was in a watery grave from the Widmore/Hanso/Piak/Dharma etc owned search and rescue sub. Poof...problem solved.

The fact that "somebody" went to all the trouble to cover up the actual crash....means that Widmore/Hanso/Piak/Dharma etc have no intention of the Losties EVER getting back to the real "outside" world. And who would believe a word they said if they DO get off the island?

Which I think is exactly what will happen to Walt & Michael when/if they actually do reach civilization...Michael will try to tell the world about how he and Walt survived the crash of 815...lived on a crazy island with polar bears and smoke monsters and weird cult-like people who were kidnapping their children and running tests on them. Well...they will write Michael off as a crazy loon, take Walt away from him and institutionalize him....a spokesperson for Oceanic will say that "Michael and Walt Porter had tickets to Flight 815, however, it was confirmed that they never boarded the flight....and to come out of hiding now, with these unbelieveable tales of survival, is in our summation, a sad and regrettable incident. We hope that Mr. porter can get psychiatric help...and stop dredging up painful memories for the families of the departed passengers of Flight 815".

And no one will believe Michael.....





Except for.....Penny.





Michael will never say anything about anything when it comes to the island. Why? Because he MURDERED two people while on the island. As far as he is concerned he never boarded that plane. (if he ever finds his way back to civilization, which I doubt)

I assume we'll learn eventually, but for now we have no information that we can tie up to Penny knowing what to look for. For the record, I think that theories that Desmond looped back in time again and this time told Penny, "Oh, and when I go missing in the Pacific Ocean, be sure to look for an electromagnetic anomoly," are completely silly.


Yet she was looking for a magnatic anomaly, which she detected when desmond turned the failsafe key, she sent a resuce team, and one of that team found Desmond.

What is silly is thinking Pennys Father devised a diabolical plan to get him Lost. Now that is beyond absurd. There are about a billion better ideas, including paying off someone is connection with the Prison Desmond was in.

So what are we left with?

We are left with a story desmond told his friend about an Island, with magnetic properties, and button that sent him back in time. You actually dont have to be silly to connect those dots--just logical. What many people do is they just dont think the events through.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Dorrit

Dorrit/Dickens reference from the podcast thread I posted in when they revealed Naomis name.

Theres only one thing wrong with that phone, if it's SO advanced why is it a giant brick like the Simon? If it was really advanced it would have been the size of one of them Apollo bars.

Also, if the phone is SO advanced, how did Sayid know exactly which buttons to push when he scanned for a signal? He then determined pretty quickly that something was jamming the signal. Out of all the buttons on that phone, none were labelled. Yet he zeroed in on precisely the right ones to do a signal search.

I think the Losties should ask Naomi when did they found the plane... It's a good way of knowing if there's some sort of time anomaly.

The big question is HOW did they find the plane?

The transponder was probably not working otherwise they would have been able to track the plane as it went off course.

Naomi said that the plane was found in a sea trench 4 miles deep. To give you an idea of how improbable it would be to find it, take a look at the Titanic.

It took 73 years for it to be found at a depth of 2.4 miles. It was made mostly of steel and other dense metals and was very large (about 50,000 tons). The spot where it sunk was known, except the specific location was only estimated.

Flight 815 was "found" in less than 3 months at twice the depth. It was a Beoing 777 made of mostly lightweight metals (aluminium, titanium, etc.) and was pretty good size (about 162 tons). The spot where it sunk was unknown.

Also, she said that they saw the passengers in the wreckage with the submersible cameras. When a plane strikes the water, it doesn't stay intact very much.

Not that I say she is lying, but I think the crash site was staged.

Heres a question, who made the find? Widmore Deep Sea Discovery? :undecide:

It was a bit of sarcasm. I believe her because she didn't pause or look away while speaking. I realize Naomi's line to Sayid "Remind me not to rescue you" was supposed to be sarcastic... What struck me (and I should have included in my post) was that she pointedly looks at her phone device for what seemed like a six-count afterward.. I mean, was she communicating to it telepathically or what... That was a very pregnant pause.

Plus, it's pretty hard to make up stuff like that on the spot. Not really, if you're trained properly... I dated an ex-special forces for a couple of years.. They're trained to think very quickly and always have several backup plans... Plus, if it was planned in advance to be a cover story, she would have already had that prepared

Also, last week Naomi told Mikhail in Italian that she was not alone. If she's honest & on the up and up then why didn't she tell our beach crew that information???

She did! She told them that she was part of a search and rescue team, with a ship about 80 miles west of their location.
100%

Flight 815 was "found" in less than 3 months at twice the depth. It was a Beoing 777 made of mostly lightweight metals (aluminium, titanium, etc.) and was pretty good size (about 162 tons). The spot where it sunk was unknown.



It may have been more than three months off-Island time.

i dont think people are thinking about balie hard enough, It is WAY far away from where they thought they were. Now I really dislike the time warp, alternate universe, all those theories. But I dont know what tehy are getting at. Bali is just about 180 degrees away from the speculated crash site, thousands of miles away. massively out of context... and yeah, highly impossible to find a plane in that situation.

And that satalite phone could easily been a custom piece of electronics. It looked like one to me. I didnt notice a brand name or anything. Everycell phone is littered with logos.

side notes: kate is a moron
jack is working on his own adjenda
much more is hiddenl behind naomi

Also, if the phone is SO advanced, how did Sayid know exactly which buttons to push when he scanned for a signal? He then determined pretty quickly that something was jamming the signal. Out of all the buttons on that phone, none were labelled. Yet he zeroed in on precisely the right ones to do a signal search.

True...and I more of the thinking that the phone is from the same "time" (I don't like the time travel theories). But Sayid also said that he had never seen/used a sat phone as advanced as Naomi's. So...

True...and I more of the thinking that the phone is from the same "time" (I don't like the time travel theories). But Sayid also said that he had never seen/used a sat phone as advanced as Naomi's. So...

I think this falls under the category of the writers expecting a willing suspension of disbelief from the audience. I think the phone is a red herring (in terms of it's level of technology) and the writers are expecting it to be accepted on face value.

i dont think people are thinking about balie hard enough, It is WAY far away from where they thought they were. Now I really dislike the time warp, alternate universe, all those theories. But I dont know what tehy are getting at. Bali is just about 180 degrees away from the speculated crash site, thousands of miles away. massively out of context... and yeah, highly impossible to find a plane in that situation.

And that satalite phone could easily been a custom piece of electronics. It looked like one to me. I didnt notice a brand name or anything. Everycell phone is littered with logos.

side notes: kate is a moron
jack is working on his own adjenda
much more is hiddenl behind naomi

well as its a tv show i don't think that they are allowed to show logos....at least without it being from a sponsor. but i'm not sold on the time difference just because of the phone. if penny can afford a listening post in the arctic, a ship and a rescue helicopter then i doubt a state of the art satellite phone would be out of the question.

and your right about kate...she is a bit of a tool. after everything i can't believe she would tell jack and esp. in front of juliet.

Naomi said that they found the plane in a trench off the shore of Bali, which as far as I know is not on the way from Sidney to LA. Why would anyone even look for wreckage of a flight that disappeared over the Pacific in the Indian Ocean? This just doesn't make any sense.

All of this leads to a couple of (speculative) things:

- It made sense to Naomi that Oceanic 815 was found off the shore of Bali
--- which would mean that the flight was not going from Oz to LA

- If we believe Naomi, then maybe Cooper is a manifestation of John's mind/Smokie, since he believes the same facts that John does.

The wreckage was in the bottom of a 4 mile deep trench. I think that's what she said.

How'd they find that?

The big question is HOW did they find the plane?

The transponder was probably not working otherwise they would have been able to track the plane as it went off course.

Naomi said that the plane was found in a sea trench 4 miles deep. To give you an idea of how improbable it would be to find it, take a look at the Titanic.

It took 73 years for it to be found at a depth of 2.4 miles. It was made mostly of steel and other dense metals and was very large (about 50,000 tons). The spot where it sunk was known, except the specific location was only estimated.

Flight 815 was "found" in less than 3 months at twice the depth. It was a Beoing 777 made of mostly lightweight metals (aluminium, titanium, etc.) and was pretty good size (about 162 tons). The spot where it sunk was unknown.

Also, she said that they saw the passengers in the wreckage with the submersible cameras. When a plane strikes the water, it doesn't stay intact very much.

Not that I say she is lying, but I think the crash site was staged.

Heres a question, who made the find? Widmore Deep Sea Discovery? :undecide:

I am of the opinion that there is NO plane at the foot of a four mile long trench anywhere. Staged or otherwise. The whole thing is fabrication.

Any agency as powerful as Widmore/Dharma whatever could send back fake reports and fake video feeds. They could employ ditigal imagining professionals and make it 'look' real and only people who might have a 'need' to look closer AND who would have the expertise to be on the look out for such manipulations would know the difference. I don't believe the other 815 ever existed.

Why go to all the trouble of faking a plane crash when they don't have to?

Also, when the phone was shown in last week's episode, apparently Apple (or someone, don't quote me on it) was peeved that their phone was on the show, and it was shown not working. So, the real technology is only a couple of years away from when the show is taking place.

SIGH.

People THOUGHT it was an iPhone because it looked similar.

Direct comparisons proved that it was just that: SIMILAR.

Does anybody else think that Naomi had A LOT of information about a Crashed plane that she WASN"T looking for? She was looking for Desmond, not 815. Sure she could have got all that information from the news, but why bother to remember it? Maybe because she's involved in seach and rescue it suck in her mind. Or maybe she was part of the team that went looking for 815? I just found it odd she was able to rattle off this information without hesitation when asked. I'm with Sayid, don't trust her...yet.

Does anybody else think that Naomi had A LOT of information about a Crashed plane that she WASN"T looking for? She was looking for Desmond, not 815. Sure she could have got all that information from the news, but why bother to remember it? Maybe because she's involved in seach and rescue it suck in her mind. Or maybe she was part of the team that went looking for 815? I just found it odd she was able to rattle off this information without hesitation when asked. I'm with Sayid, don't trust her...yet.

If she is an aviator plane crashes would probably be of special interest to her. She would more than likely pay more attention to details that the rest of us might dismiss as too technical or whatever.

SIGH.

People THOUGHT it was an iPhone because it looked similar.

Direct comparisons proved that it was just that: SIMILAR.
Well, that's basically what I meant. But I think it was probably designed to look intentionally similar to current technology, so that it would be advanced to Sayid's eye, but not ridiculously so. Not saying that Lost stole the iPhone by any means.

Why go to all the trouble of faking a plane crash when they don't have to?
Very good point elf. How long will it take for us to find out that they used DNA evidences from hairbrushes "found" at the crash site as confirmation of who was on the plane?

Very good point elf. How long will it take for us to find out that they used DNA evidences from hairbrushes "found" at the crash site as confirmation of who was on the plane?


I totally forgot about the Hairbrushes!:eek2: Good memory!

Except for.....Penny.



Awsome theory!:eek2:

There is one thing you are all forgetting. In boat races like the one Des would have been on all the boats involved would have had some sort of rescue device. So if they get in trouble they turn it on for Coast guard of military assistance.

There is one thing you are all forgetting. In boat races like the one Des was in, all the boats involved would have had some sort of rescue device. So if they get in trouble they turn it on for Coast guard or military assistance.

exactly, so Penny was tracking him for a while.....when he got close to the Island the electromagnetic interferece shadowed his boat signal and then when he turned the key in the Swan, the Ice Station guys saw Desmond signal........not a pulse from the Island.......a blip from Des. boat.

Either way Naomi crashing on the island is good news for the losties and Desmond. If you think about it Penny defidentely is smarter than to think its coincidence that at the same coordinates that she saw a magnetic anomoly one of her pilots suddenly disappears? This is only going to make her realize she is searching for something bigger than she thought. I also think that at some point the storyline of this show will go off island whether it be next season or the very last one these companies will be exposed and all they've done will be revealed.

Michael's last name I believe was Dawson, Walt's may be Porter because Brian Porter adopted him.

One thing that I took from Naomi's information is that she was not looking for Desmond anywhere near Bali, which lead me to reason out that island is definitely not in the area to the nearby west of Australia. She mentioned that Bali was where the wreck of 815 was found, right? Bali is located near many many islands. It is ina heavily populated part of the world. Naomi specifically said that she was not given coordiantes near land, but in the middle of the ocean. Any coordinates given near Bali would be near an island. Naomi made a point of saying that it was nowhere near land, she thought it was odd to be given coordinates with no land mass anywhere nearby. Naomi didn't say which ocean the coordinates were in, but at least one geographical area can be taken out of the running. I still say that it is somewhere in the South Pacific because knowing that it was not anywhere near Bali but in the middle of the ocean would mean that the plane would have had to have traveled to the middle of the Indian Ocean. No plane could travel all the way across Australia and into the middle of the Indian Ocean given the time frame of the plane. It takes almost 5 hours just to travel east to west from Sydney to Perth, there is no way that the plane could have made it far enough into the Indian Ocean in one hour to be far enough from land that Naomi would say that there was no land near the given corrdinates. However, traveling east across the Pacific would leave plenty of places that would match the coordinates that Naomi spoke of. I think that Naomi gave us a major piece of information with this.

well as its a tv show i don't think that they are allowed to show logos....at least without it being from a sponsor.

I think that ANY tv show would welcome product placement and the money it brings. They are in it for the money after all right?

I think that the fact that there is no brand on the phone was to prevent the fans (not necessarily all viewers) from determining when the phone was manufactured.

I'm not saying it's from the future, I'm basically just saying that it's just another thing put in the show to get us addicts talking more. ;)

what if Naomi knew someone on the flight and that's why she knew so much about its crash?

i also definitely think that she telepathically talked to her phone.
*rolls eyes*

i dont trust her period.. speaking four languages to see who spoke what, then mikel understanding her at end of the last epi..
no.. you could the tell the losties anything at this point how can they prove it.. and as desperate as they are to get off the island...they eat anything..

it appears the others know just how much info to give to satify a question, but never too much..

Bali is Northwest of Aus.roughly. I was waiting for Sayid to ask why the plane would be there. It's nowhere near the flight path of 815. They would have flown much longer than they were in the air to get from Sydnet to Bali. I think that would have been a big issue. Why didn't Cooper/Naomi mention that. Someone would have had to ask "Why was this plane so far off course?"

Is anyone else wondering why she took a helicopter from the ship to the coordinates they were given? Why not just take the ship directly to the exact coordinates if they were "in the middle of the ocean"?

I think that the fact that there is no brand on the phone was to prevent the fans (not necessarily all viewers) from determining when the phone was manufactured.


I think it has no logo because it's a prop phone designed by prop guys. It looks like they carved out the guts of an old brick phone/remote/cordless phone and then threw a large screen on it. The prop designers probably meant the UI to look somewhat like the iPhone's UI.

Is anyone else wondering why she took a helicopter from the ship to the coordinates they were given? Why not just take the ship directly to the exact coordinates if they were "in the middle of the ocean"?Yeah, I was wondering that as well. Something fishy is going on...

Another possibility maybe...
In an alternate universe, something caused flight 815 to crash in Bali which means 815 was most likely not heading to LA, maybe Korea instead? And perhaps the technology advancements are caused by the same event/events responsible for a different route of 815.
I am guessing that if is the future than it is not a great deal into the future, I mean it cant be that far or Penny would not be around anymore, and Naomi would be asking Desmond why he has not aged.

IMHO, these theories about how the supposed 815 plane was found where it shouldn't have been go waaayyyy too far off the known track. If the entire plane was found, that would presumably include the locator beacon. Which would make the plane relatively easy to find (assuming they could get the signal 3000 feet down in the ocean, which is probably possible with sonar, etc.) Not to throw damp water on the fire, or something like that. The theories on here are always intriguing!

The wreckage was in the bottom of a 4 mile deep trench. I think that's what she said.

How'd they find that?

That was my first, second and third thought...:confused: I can still only conclude the film showing the passengers was fabricated.

Theres only one thing wrong with that phone, if it's SO advanced why is it a giant brick like the Simon? If it was really advanced it would have been the size of one of them Apollo bars.

:roflmao: So true!

I think the Losties should ask Naomi when did they found the plane... It's a good way of knowing if there's some sort of time anomaly.

Other than Des, I don't think the Losties have any idea that time comes into play. They think they are on "real time".

The big question is HOW did they find the plane?

The transponder was probably not working otherwise they would have been able to track the plane as it went off course.

Naomi said that the plane was found in a sea trench 4 miles deep. To give you an idea of how improbable it would be to find it, take a look at the Titanic.

It took 73 years for it to be found at a depth of 2.4 miles. It was made mostly of steel and other dense metals and was very large (about 50,000 tons). The spot where it sunk was known, except the specific location was only estimated.

Flight 815 was "found" in less than 3 months at twice the depth. It was a Beoing 777 made of mostly lightweight metals (aluminium, titanium, etc.) and was pretty good size (about 162 tons). The spot where it sunk was unknown.

Also, she said that they saw the passengers in the wreckage with the submersible cameras. When a plane strikes the water, it doesn't stay intact very much.

Not that I say she is lying, but I think the crash site was staged.

Heres a question, who made the find? Widmore Deep Sea Discovery? :undecide:

I thought of the Titanic too, Very-lost and wondered how this was found so quickly. Could it be a parallel time when, in that time, the plane really did go so way off course and crash outside of Bali? Was the whole wreck staged by Widmore/Dharma/Paik? You have to remember that Cooper, too, thought his son was killed in the plane crash so this is something the whole world believes outside of the Losties and the Others and probably Jacob and that whole contingent and Penny. Remember how Naomi thought Penny was nuts to send them out there into the middle of the ocean?! All she knew is that she was sent to find this man in the middle of the Pacific. As far as we konw now, she wasn't looking for anything else.

I feel Naomi is lying about the Bali story.
I do think Penny hired her, or knows here. I also think Marvin Candle is on the island. When she said she was not alone, I think he jumped with her.
Naomi is related to DHARMA, whether she was hired by DHARMA, or is a member.
She spoke in different languages to determine how she could communicate with her "who she thought was her DHARMA buddy, patchy."

She did not know the losties were on the island, and she was going there for 2 reasons: 1. to find Des for penny, and 2. escort Candle to find out why the island is incommunicato.

I think she lies to the losties about the crash, because she doesnt want to tell them anything true, until she finds out wtf is going on the island.

It was a bit of sarcasm. I believe her because she didn't pause or look away while speaking. Plus, it's pretty hard to make up stuff like that on the spot. And she told the guys a lot more than what was revealed to us the viewers.

MamaThor says she had spunk!

I think you memorize certain lies.

S2E14 Henry Gale: She's 140 feet high, 60 feet wide. And when she's up in the air 550,000 thousand cubic feet of helium and a 100,000 thousand of hot air keep her up. And if you could look down on her you'd see a big yellow smiley face on top.

(We know the measurments are exactly from Steve Fossett's balloon.)

Bali is kind of right on the border of the Indian & Pacific, just North of Australia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bali

Well, it is near the border, but is still explicitly in the Indian Ocean:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Indianocean.PNG

Also, but look at the satellite images on google maps - there does seem to be a trench just to the south of Bali. Bali is not very big, suggesting a rather specific location.

I only bring this up because I remember reading a really interesting theory about the island being something like Diego Garcia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Garcia), which is in the middle of the Indian Ocean. This idea makes it easier to understand how the beachcraft and the Black Rock might have ended up on the island, although offers no real explanation to how the 815ers did.

I feel Naomi is lying about the Bali story.
I do think Penny hired her, or knows here. I also think Marvin Candle is on the island. When she said she was not alone, I think he jumped with her.
Naomi is related to DHARMA, whether she was hired by DHARMA, or is a member.
She spoke in different languages to determine how she could communicate with her "who she thought was her DHARMA buddy, patchy."



I agree, Naomi and Patchy were communicating with each other on a different level. She said "I am not alone" (or whatever) to him in another language and has not repeated it since. You would think that she would say that again to the people that are nursing her back to health! Wouldn't she want our losties to help her find whoever she was with? But no....

I think that Patchy showed up for the sole purpose of saving her; you can bet that he is out there now looking for whoever was with her because they are all in it together.

IMHO, these theories about how the supposed 815 plane was found where it shouldn't have been go waaayyyy too far off the known track. If the entire plane was found, that would presumably include the locator beacon. Which would make the plane relatively easy to find (assuming they could get the signal 3000 feet down in the ocean, which is probably possible with sonar, etc.) Not to throw damp water on the fire, or something like that. The theories on here are always intriguing!


I am not sure I totally understand your post. It seems like time travel/parallel universes are most likely occuring from what we have learned from the past few episodes. I am not saying these are right by any means, but why are they waaaaay off the known track when most consider that either time travel or parallel universes are very likely.

Well, it is near the border, but is still explicitly in the Indian Ocean:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Indianocean.PNG

Also, but look at the satellite images on google maps - there does seem to be a trench just to the south of Bali. Bali is not very big, suggesting a rather specific location.

I only bring this up because I remember reading a really interesting theory about the island being something like Diego Garcia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Garcia), which is in the middle of the Indian Ocean. This idea makes it easier to understand how the beachcraft and the Black Rock might have ended up on the island, although offers no real explanation to how the 815ers did.

Hugh thank you!

Diego Garcia (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=45708)

Flight 815 was supposed to be found 4 miles down, that's 20,920 feet. I find that piece of information amazingly hard to believe.

I am of the opinion that there is NO plane at the foot of a four mile long trench anywhere. Staged or otherwise. The whole thing is fabrication.

Yes. Thank you. As someone pointed out earlier, there is no way in purgatory... sorry, no way in hell bodies or pretty much everything else (except for the black box) on a plane crashing four miles deep into the ocean would stay intact so that everyone is neatly accounted for. So that would be one lame setup.
Bali is Northwest of Aus.roughly. I was waiting for Sayid to ask why the plane would be there.

I was waiting for him to roll his eyes and say ":dog:, please!" He did have his suspicions about the rest of the doobies actually seeing a hellicopter, but Sayid The Super Techno Geek should probably know a little more about what happens to high velocity objects that collide with a body of water.

I feel Naomi is lying about the Bali story.
I do think Penny hired her, or knows here. I also think Marvin Candle is on the island. When she said she was not alone, I think he jumped with her.
Naomi is related to DHARMA, whether she was hired by DHARMA, or is a member.
She spoke in different languages to determine how she could communicate with her "who she thought was her DHARMA buddy, patchy."

She did not know the losties were on the island, and she was going there for 2 reasons: 1. to find Des for penny, and 2. escort Candle to find out why the island is incommunicato.

I think she lies to the losties about the crash, because she doesnt want to tell them anything true, until she finds out wtf is going on the island.

I do believe Penny sent her (please, no more ellaborate nonsensical plans from Ben!), but I agree with you that she's lying. She became suspicious when she started speaking in tongues for a while and then remembered she speaks better English than Hurley.

I'm voting for Naomi is from the future/ parallel universes. In addition to the crazy phone, she said something about robots going down and inspecting the 815 crash sight. Does anyone know if this is an existing technology?

Props to some peeps....

Yes...I got Mike & Walt's last names transposed...Michael Dawson & Walt Porter it is.

However...as someone else pointed out....Michael may not be the one who starts blowing whistles and contacting CNN when/if he reaches the outside world due to his "criminal activities" while on the island...so scratch him off....but the simple fact remains....if ANYONE....Jack....Locke...Bernard, etc....made it back to civilization, and began telling the world about where they had been, a huge "invisible" island...with tales of underground hatches, smoke monsters and giant 4 toed statues...they would immediately be institutionalized, dismissed as crying for attention...and would also be called a liar by Oceanic Airlines with a simple "Insert Losties Name never boarded Flight 815. Period".


Originally Posted by Sam G http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/images/FuselageGreen/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1526568#post1526568)
The wreckage was in the bottom of a 4 mile deep trench. I think that's what she said.
How'd they find that?


It's very easy to find....if you know exactly where to look. I'm sure they (Widmore/Hanso/Piak/Dharma/Whomever) sunk at least part of a fuselage...if not a whole "look-alike" in order to send back some kind of "proof" of their "official" story. They couldn't risk someone who had the means, such as Hurley's mother, launching their own independent search, and turning up absolutely nothing. As for the bodies? I doubt they bothered with planting real or fake "passengers" in the wreckage...
Afterall...there would be almost no way to retrieve any remains at that depth. I think the big Oceanic logo resting on the bottom would be enough to satisfy any snoopy loved ones. But saying it's in a 4 mile trench should prove cost prohibitive enough for even James Cameron to go looking for it.

I think this falls under the category of the writers expecting a willing suspension of disbelief from the audience. I think the phone is a red herring (in terms of it's level of technology) and the writers are expecting it to be accepted on face value.
AKA a "McGuffin": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mcguffin

I agree, Naomi and Patchy were communicating with each other on a different level. She said "I am not alone" (or whatever) to him in another language and has not repeated it since. You would think that she would say that again to the people that are nursing her back to health! Wouldn't she want our losties to help her find whoever she was with? But no....

I think that Patchy showed up for the sole purpose of saving her; you can bet that he is out there now looking for whoever was with her because they are all in it together.

Not a chance:)

This is the story arc shown in the season 2 finale--Penny's search for desmond through the listening station's detection of the magnetic anomaly

If they wanted the story to make no sense at all--she would be fake. I wouldnt worry about not realizing this at first--your suppose to question it, in your mind, for a second along with Sayid in the episode. Then your suppose to come to your senses and remember your not Sayid..but a viewer who has seen the Listening station scene:biggrin:

I kid you ...but seriously, there's not a chance she is with the others. You would have to climb over about 20 plot points to land there. Most obvious being Cooper also confirmed the losties were suppose to be dead.
100%
Does anybody else think that Naomi had A LOT of information about a Crashed plane that she WASN"T looking for? She was looking for Desmond, not 815. Sure she could have got all that information from the news, but why bother to remember it? Maybe because she's involved in seach and rescue it suck in her mind. Or maybe she was part of the team that went looking for 815? I just found it odd she was able to rattle off this information without hesitation when asked. I'm with Sayid, don't trust her...yet.

You answered your own question. She's a Search and Rescue professional. How may planes were found in an ocean trench--my count is none. I think a S&R Pro would know all about it.

The big question is HOW did they find the plane?

The transponder was probably not working otherwise they would have been able to track the plane as it went off course.

Naomi said that the plane was found in a sea trench 4 miles deep. To give you an idea of how improbable it would be to find it, take a look at the Titanic.

It took 73 years for it to be found at a depth of 2.4 miles. It was made mostly of steel and other dense metals and was very large (about 50,000 tons). The spot where it sunk was known, except the specific location was only estimated.

Flight 815 was "found" in less than 3 months at twice the depth. It was a Beoing 777 made of mostly lightweight metals (aluminium, titanium, etc.) and was pretty good size (about 162 tons). The spot where it sunk was unknown.

Also, she said that they saw the passengers in the wreckage with the submersible cameras. When a plane strikes the water, it doesn't stay intact very much.

Not that I say she is lying, but I think the crash site was staged.

Heres a question, who made the find? Widmore Deep Sea Discovery? :undecide:

I agree that any crash footage was staged by Dharma/Widmore/Paik. As for a possible explanation of how it was 'found', I'd guess that a related company was doing research in the area and 'stumbled' across it. The explanation given to the outside world (if Naomi is telling the truth about this) would be interesting to hear.

question, fellow mates.. the type of search - gps? right, means already mapped places.. then if the gps shows no island, then its not mapped ( du!) but could it be a made up island.. or one held back from ever being placed on a map by a government.
removed from all forms of maps and documents.. why?
an experiement gone bad, or so good, once again gov hides like Indy Jones treasures!

I was waiting for him to roll his eyes and say ":dog:, please!" He did have his suspicions about the rest of the doobies actually seeing a hellicopter, but Sayid The Super Techno Geek should probably know a little more about what happens to high velocity objects that collide with a body of water.
.

I agree that it is significant that Sayid asks whether any of the losties actually saw a helicopter. I think that his suspicions about her story, combined with her speaking to Mikhail in a language the losties don't know, her telling him she's not alone and Mikhail lying about it, Mikhail's proximity to where she landed and his prompt arrival on seeing the flare, all throw suspicion on Naomi. On the other hand, she does say Penny hired her and has the picture of Penny and Desmond.

Any way the two missions could've been combined? Like Penny knows about her father's role in Dharma and is using one of his operatives to work for her while that operative is investigating what the heck has been happening on the island? Or that Penny's father is aware she's looking for Desmond and has compromised Naomi and made her part of his agenda, and her job for Penny is a kind of cover for that?

Not sure if any of this makes sense.

question, fellow mates.. the type of search - gps? right, means already mapped places.. then if the gps shows no island, then its not mapped ( du!) but could it be a made up island.. or one held back from ever being placed on a map by a government.
removed from all forms of maps and documents.. why?
an experiement gone bad, or so good, once again gov hides like Indy Jones treasures!

Um, that's not what GPS means. GPS is a Global Positioning System which uses satellites to determine position on the earth's surface (and above) and is based on time from the equator and meridien line (effectively longtitude and latitude). You can now buy software that overlays maps on GPS units, but GPS works worldwide (provided you have satellite coverage) and is now being used to create maps.

I agree that it is significant that Sayid asks whether any of the losties actually saw a helicopter. I think that his suspicions about her story

Sayid is understandably suspicious....Every "newcomer" into the Losties tribe has sought to harm the Losties...even Rousseau kidnapped baby Aaron...I don't think his suspicions have any bearing on her story NOT being true. I think Sayid is just being cautious.....and rightfully so. He may be smelling an Other trap....but I think he's wrong.

BTW....thinkin about the hole Sayid was digging....and Rousseau needing dynamite...Could they be working together to ambush Ben & Co.'s plan to abduct the pregnant Losties? A lil buried dynamite surprise? I'm think Rousseau contacted Sayid with a warning about the planned raid....and they are getting ready. Normally he'd probably be consulting with Jack on a thing like this....but with Jack all cozy with Juliette....perhaps Sayid's keeping this plan to himself. Just a theory.

I would also think that the losties might want to get on one of the others' boats and head out towards the freighter that is only 80 miles away. They arent real creative when it comes to trying to get off the island.

I am wondering if going to the freighter is such a good idea. Remember that from the "Lost Experience", also feature as an article today on Lostpedia, that Paik was building a ship called the "Helgus Antonius". http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:Helgus.jpg. Maybe this is where Naomi flew from. If so, a one way ticket back to the beach.

...
It was strange that she said to Sayid, "Remind me not to rescue you".. I can't figure out what that could mean..
...

This joke seems lost on a lot of viewers. Don't your friends talk like that? the other day at work someone brought in cookies and one of the guys was like, next time bring in chocolate chip and she was just like, "remind me next time to bring cookies in when you're home sick." basically the same joke.

I can see how Naomi can be seen as an Other, but why would she make up the story about the Bali plane crash? Her lie has no motive. On the other hand, if she is not an Other, and the Bali plane crash is real, and everyone is dead, then we know there are two 815 crashes.

The question then becomes: which plane crash was staged? (Unless we have time problem, which I doubt.) The simplest solution would be that the island crash was staged, and this might be what Jack may know about when he says "shall we tell" Kate. Jack doesn't know about Penny, and is assuming that a rescue is impossible, because their plane never truly crashed, which means no one would be looking for them.

Example (http://www.cnn.com/US/9911/02/side.scan.sonar.01/index.html)

They are dealing with wreckage that is in 250 feet of water and they consider that deep.

Flight 815 is supposed to be down 4 miles that's 21,120 feet

Another example (http://au.news.yahoo.com/070126/19/127il.html)

It took 25 days to locate to plane and it is a little more than 1 mile down. The debrise field his very large.

One wonders how filght 815 could be completely in tact and located within the timeframe mentioned. if it is fabricated they can make up whatever they want.

Although, we have a whole ship sitting in the middle of the jungle and one wonders how that got there.

definitely an interesting relationship going on here, but i think sayids suspicions are just his nature, he questions everything. in terms of which plane crash was staged - i am sticking to my guns that i think the other bali plane crash was the one that was staged. how it happened, why it happened are all things i dont know of course, but i have a hard time believing the theory that the losties 815 crash onto the island was staged.

definitely an interesting relationship going on here, but i think sayids suspicions are just his nature, he questions everything. in terms of which plane crash was staged - i am sticking to my guns that i think the other bali plane crash was the one that was staged. how it happened, why it happened are all things i dont know of course, but i have a hard time believing the theory that the losties 815 crash onto the island was staged.
Clearly we now know there are two 815 crashes, so one is fake. We have no way of proving the Bali 815 crash is fake, but if we think through the past few seasons we may dig up clues to support or debunk a faked island 815 crash.

Support items:
1.) Ben sending Ethan to look for survivors immediately
2.) Jack is a back surgeon, would Ben risk his death?
3.) Each 'survivor' has no family, especially fathers, interested in finding them if they happen to disappear for a few months. This can't happen randomly.
4.) Others have equipment to brainwash or perhaps program short term memories

Debunk items:
1.) Why stage a crash when you can just lock them all up?

3.) Each 'survivor' has no family, especially fathers, interested in finding them if they happen to disappear for a few months. This can't happen randomly.

Just because many of the survivors do not have good relationships with their fathers doesn't mean they don't have other family members who were distraught about the plane crash. I'm sure that Hurley's family was absolutely devastated. Ditto for Sabrina Carlyle in regards to Boone. The same with Charlie's family.

Just because many of the survivors do not have good relationships with their fathers doesn't mean they don't have other family members who were distraught about the plane crash. I'm sure that Hurley's family was absolutely devastated. Ditto for Sabrina Carlyle in regards to Boone. The same with Charlie's family.
You are assuming that relatives of the Losties would be notified of the plane crash (815). But if their tickets and flight plans were all arranged by Widmore, and they were kidnapped at the last minute instead of becoming passengers on the real 815, the passenger list would clearly show that they were not on that plane. Given the back stories, each survivor seems to be quite independent of family. It's almost as if the back stories are the Others' research into why they chose this group of people.

You usually stop looking for something once you find it.

The "outside" world believes that they have found the "lost" Flight 815, and have stopped looking for it.

Whoever planned/plotted/arranged for our beloved castaways to end up where they are did so with intent. He/She may not have intended the plane to crash, but Flight 815 was already in place to be discovered with no survirors in the deepdeepdeep trench where no one can recover the bodies or wreckage. :undecide:

I still say that it is somewhere in the South Pacific because knowing that it was not anywhere near Bali but in the middle of the ocean would mean that the plane would have had to have traveled to the middle of the Indian Ocean.

Dessmond knows where the island is, and he told us in the season 2 finale: It's less that a week due East of Fiji at 9 knots.
100%
The big question is HOW did they find the plane?

The transponder was probably not working otherwise they would have been able to track the plane as it went off course.

Naomi said that the plane was found in a sea trench 4 miles deep. To give you an idea of how improbable it would be to find it, take a look at the Titanic.

It took 73 years for it to be found at a depth of 2.4 miles. It was made mostly of steel and other dense metals and was very large (about 50,000 tons). The spot where it sunk was known, except the specific location was only estimated.

Flight 815 was "found" in less than 3 months at twice the depth. It was a Beoing 777 made of mostly lightweight metals (aluminium, titanium, etc.) and was pretty good size (about 162 tons). The spot where it sunk was unknown.

Also, she said that they saw the passengers in the wreckage with the submersible cameras. When a plane strikes the water, it doesn't stay intact very much.

Not that I say she is lying, but I think the crash site was staged.

Heres a question, who made the find? Widmore Deep Sea Discovery? :undecide:

They knew where to look, because the decoy plane had a working transponder that was indicating that it was flight 815. (And I believe it must have been indicating that it had been hijacked to explain why it was so far off course.) They found the ideal spot to ditch the plane: It was very deep water, and yet it was right next to land, so that the Bali radar would have seen exactly where they went down.

A plane making a controlled crash into water should stay intact. We just don't have a lot of examples of that from real life airliners in that situation.

I'm not sure why there is a big deal being made about the sat phone. Hurley recognized it immediately. Sayid had no problems fixing it and playing with it.
I think it's merely ultra- SOTA technology that Penny would be able to purchase for the mission because money is no object. We didn't see the copter clearly but I'm sure it wasn't you're run of the mill craft . . .

Dessmond knows where the island is, and he told us in the season 2 finale: It's less that a week due East of Fiji at 9 knots.
100%


That was probably before he was caught in the storm and knocked out. He really doesn't know where he is. He just thinks he does.

That was probably before he was caught in the storm and knocked out. He really doesn't know where he is. He just thinks he does.

Still, it would be pretty hard to get from the middle of the South Pacific to the Indian Ocean just by floating, no matter how bad the storm was.

You are assuming that relatives of the Losties would be notified of the plane crash (815). But if their tickets and flight plans were all arranged by Widmore, and they were kidnapped at the last minute instead of becoming passengers on the real 815, the passenger list would clearly show that they were not on that plane. Given the back stories, each survivor seems to be quite independent of family. It's almost as if the back stories are the Others' research into why they chose this group of people.
I too think this all has been planned from the beginning, although I'm not sure they were kidnapped and sent on a separate plane. But, I really like your point about the survivors being generally independent, or breaking away, from their families.

(Can I still hope that Kate being awake through the whole crash will somehow come into play here?)

I too think this all has been planned from the beginning, although I'm not sure they were kidnapped and sent on a separate plane. But, I really like your point about the survivors being generally independent, or breaking away, from their families.

(Can I still hope that Kate being awake through the whole crash will somehow come into play here?)
I realize this isn't a highly rational show, but it seems just too far fetched that if you planned to force a certain group of people to the island, you would risk killing them in a crash where generally the fatality rate is over 95%. Interestingly enough, placing the island near Bali makes the Hinduism/Bhuddism (Dharma) connection more realistic. Perhaps the four toed foot was part of a giant statue of Bhudda, much like those throughout South Asia.

Still, it would be pretty hard to get from the middle of the South Pacific to the Indian Ocean just by floating, no matter how bad the storm was.

But no stranger than a prop plane from Nigeria, supposedly, being on an island in the middle of the South Pacific.

She was very specific about the 4 mile thing - if you'd just heard the news report casually on the radio or TV you wouldn't remember specifics like that (They probably wouldn't even mention them in the reports).

4 mile down has to be close to the deepest trench in any ocean on the planet - the pressure would be immense down there, you'd need specialist equipment to get down there. In fact, you might not even be able to send people down in any kind of submarine due to the outside pressure. It'd be easy for a well connected group to say we've found a plane wreckage, there are bodies inside we can't get to, it's flight 815.

Who's possibly going to turn around and question that? You don't see reports on the news about a plane crashing and the wreckage being found followed by a group of people shouting that it's fake. People would take that on face value and it would help them mourn and move on. They've got their peace. No more questions to ask. No FAA enquiry because the plane is too far down to recover the blackbox flight recorder.

I believe there is a plane. I believe it's down there somewhere. I don't believe it is flight 815.

I certainly don't trust Naomi.

How weird that in the same episode two completely different and unrelated characters get into a conversation that results in them saying flight 815 crashed, was found, all dead.

Don't Trust Her.

So, we finally learn her name is Naomi Dorrit. And they she was sent by Penny, hired by her actually, to use a GPS system to find Desmond. Sounds like Penny did plant something on the Elizabeth after all. The ship Naomi's helicopter took off from was 80 miles (kilometers?) away, and she almost didn't see the island.

Also, the plane was found in an ocean trench way down.

So, what do you all think of this? Does this give us more to go on, in terms of where the island is and some of the larger questions?I think there are holes in her story.

1] If they had the coordinates why have the ship so far away? Why send a chopper out when the ship could easily pull up to the island on its own.

2] She said that the clouds broke and then she saw land. There were no clouds. It was a clear night.

3] I've always known there had to be a GPS system on the boat because it's mandatory on these round-the-world-races. I don't think Penny planted it either Desmond installed it or the race people did.

But I don't trust Naomi just yet. Got to see more of her before I make my decision.

I think there are holes in her story.

1] If they had the coordinates why have the ship so far away? Why send a chopper out when the ship could easily pull up to the island on its own.

2] She said that the clouds broke and then she saw land. There were no clouds. It was a clear night.

3] I've always known there had to be a GPS system on the boat because it's mandatory on these round-the-world-races. I don't think Penny planted it either Desmond installed it or the race people did.

But I don't trust Naomi just yet. Got to see more of her before I make my decision.


If you go to 20:02 on the Streaming Video (http://dynamic.abc.go.com/streaming/landingstreaming video) you will see that it was quite cloudy out. Sorry Lost-media does not have a screen cap and again at 20:18 and at 20:26 you will see the splash in the ocean and 20:51 you can see the beacon in the clouds.

It was a cloudy night.

If you go to 20:02 on the Streaming Video (http://dynamic.abc.go.com/streaming/landingstreaming%20video) you will see that it was quite cloudy out. Sorry Lost-media does not have a screen cap and again at 20:18 and at 20:26 you will see the splash in the ocean and 20:51 you can see the beacon in the clouds.

It was a cloudy night.Thanks for that, SG! Yet another reason I need a HDTV. LOL

But I'm still wondering why a ship couldn't have come to the coordinates instead of sending out a helicopter at night. That part still doesn't make sense to me. I'm thinking there is no ship ... unless it's the one that took Jack and Juliet back to Otherville.

I realize this isn't a highly rational show, but it seems just too far fetched that if you planned to force a certain group of people to the island, you would risk killing them in a crash where generally the fatality rate is over 95%.
True. I didn't give my full thoughts on this, which are that the plane was suposed to land on the island somehow, and the coincidental timing of Desmond's failure to push the button made it crash.

Thanks for that, SG! Yet another reason I need a HDTV. LOL

But I'm still wondering why a ship couldn't have come to the coordinates instead of sending out a helicopter at night. That part still doesn't make sense to me. I'm thinking there is no ship ... unless it's the one that took Jack and Juliet back to Otherville.
I don't know. Maybe because a helicopter can cover more ground more quickly?

True. I didn't give my full thoughts on this, which are that the plane was suposed to land on the island somehow, and the coincidental timing of Desmond's failure to push the button made it crash.


I don't know. Maybe because a helicopter can cover more ground more quickly?But they don't need to cover ground if they have the coordinates. Those coordinates "are" the island. And a helicopter out at night? Why not during the day when visibility is at its best. Just makes no sense to me. I think she was sneaking onto the island and that can't be good.

True. I didn't give my full thoughts on this, which are that the plane was suposed to land on the island somehow, and the coincidental timing of Desmond's failure to push the button made it crash.


I don't know. Maybe because a helicopter can cover more ground more quickly?
5,221 posts, you're amazing. Are you a writer?

Agreed, there should be a secret air strip on the island. Maybe Desmond's emp or whatever actually disrupted an attempt at a landing, which is why the impact was not so severe.

Here's a question: Could not a crafty ticket agent, in synch with a gate crew, mix up boarding passes so certain passengers going to LA ended up on the 815 plane to Bali? Is this why the ticket agent was so against taking Jack's dad, and maybe why there was no sign of Jack's dad?

5,221 posts, you're amazing. Are you a writer?

Agreed, there should be a secret air strip on the island. Maybe Desmond's emp or whatever actually disrupted an attempt at a landing, which is why the impact was not so severe.

Here's a question: Could not a crafty ticket agent, in synch with a gate crew, mix up boarding passes so certain passengers going to LA ended up on the 815 plane to Bali? Is this why the ticket agent was so against taking Jack's dad, and maybe why there was no sign of Jack's dad?Sure, that could happen I guess. But, for me anyway, it seems a stretch to take a character that we saw that one time and make her the lynch pin for getting these people to the island. My theory still is there's something rotten in Naomi. ;)

Sure, that could happen I guess. But, for me anyway, it seems a stretch to take a character that we saw that one time and make her the lynch pin for getting these people to the island. My theory still is there's something rotten in Naomi. ;)
I know, the introduction of Naomi is a major tsunami, and all based on her one line about the Bali plane crash. If you think she's good, here's an added thought. Oceanic flight 815 could be on a one stop trip to LA, via Singapore. The flight from Sydney to Singapore passes near Bali. This would keep everything where it's at, except the island location.

I know, the introduction of Naomi is a major tsunami, and all based on her one line about the Bali plane crash. If you think she's good, here's an added thought. Oceanic flight 815 could be on a one stop trip to LA, via Singapore. The flight from Sydney to Singapore passes near Bali. This would keep everything where it's at, except the island location.I don't think the introduction of Naomi is huge because of the Bali plane reference. I think she's huge because 1] she had the pix of Des and Penny & 2] she said Ms Widmore hired her. But do I think she's good? Not yet. Too soon to tell but so far I'm not buying her story.

But they don't need to cover ground if they have the coordinates. Those coordinates "are" the island. And a helicopter out at night? Why not during the day when visibility is at its best. Just makes no sense to me. I think she was sneaking onto the island and that can't be good.
Yeah, I know. Just trying to think it through. I think she is more than she seems - I just don't know what that is.

5,221 posts, you're amazing. Are you a writer?
...

Here's a question: Could not a crafty ticket agent, in synch with a gate crew, mix up boarding passes so certain passengers going to LA ended up on the 815 plane to Bali? Is this why the ticket agent was so against taking Jack's dad, and maybe why there was no sign of Jack's dad?
:blushing: Er, thanks? Or maybe I just talk to much?

Hmm, including the flight attendants in the conspiracy? Could be. Maybe that's why the Others needed to grab Cindy so stealthily, to make it seem like she wasn't in on it.

Maybe Naomi is Desmond's wish that came out of the box?

Maybe Naomi is Desmond's wish that came out of the box?She'd be Penny if he'd gotten his wish. :biggrin:

Yeah, I know. Just trying to think it through. I think she is more than she seems - I just don't know what that is.


:blushing: Er, thanks? Or maybe I just talk to much?

Hmm, including the flight attendants in the conspiracy? Could be. Maybe that's why the Others needed to grab Cindy so stealthily, to make it seem like she wasn't in on it.
Actually, I just noticed JBDean has 13,145. Whatever I say must be old hat. With just over 30 posts my wife thinks I'm neglecting the kids...Lost! has created its own cyber island, how do we escape?

About 815 (again!) another idea is that 815 had always been a scam flight from Syndney to Bali and back run by the Others. The pilot, attendants and passengers are all Others. The mystery is in how selected 'good' or 'rebel' passengers from a flight to LA got switched onto 815--perhaps they were brought in fatefully by the island, not the Others. The Bali airport is very close, and is the connecting point for a helicopter trip to the island--so maybe Naomi is an Other, and is just another setup to infiltrate the survivors. The 815 crash was real and unplanned; it was caused by the island itself, using Desmond. The mythology of the island is not all good, as it seems to require human sacrifices (Echo, Cooper). But it really just wants liberation; and the Others are not all evil, they just want to control the island. The Others need children to expand their forces; the island needs the survivors to defeat the Others.

She'd be Penny if he'd gotten his wish. :biggrin:
He didn't know his wish would come true. He keeps quoting Penny about enough money and determination you can find anyone. She would be hiring people to find him maybe he didn't completely believe in his wish.

He hoped it would be Penny after he made the wish.