Did anyone else sense this metaphor?
When Ben was trying to get Locke to kill his father, it seemed like he was the devil trying to get a good person to do a bad thing.

And all this talk of Locke being "the One" makes me think of Jesus.

If Locke was a Christ figure, he wouldn't have given into temptation... It's been stated over and over again that Locke is a man of faith, but that faith is a false faith that leads him astray (i.e. sacrificing Boone to the Island, the Hatch, tempting Sawyer to do his dirty work). The Others are master cons who wanted orignal recipe Sawyer dead for whatever reason (perhaps a Dharma spy??) and tempted Locke to get him to perform the deed (You're special... You're the one).

Ben has been seeming pretty "Devilish" lately. I got the impression that he was tempting Locke to do the opposite of what would show Locke to be a compassionate "Good Person". Is Locke worthy of the list? That seems to be Ben's test.

It's funny you mention this...I was getting some major Narnia vibes when Ben wanted Locke to kill his father at the stone landing over those steps. It totally reminded me of the Stone Table scene when Aslan was killed.

If Locke was a Christ figure, he wouldn't have given into temptation... It's been stated over and over again that Locke is a man of faith, but that faith is a false faith that leads him astray (i.e. sacrificing Boone to the Island, the Hatch, tempting Sawyer to do his dirty work). The Others are master cons who wanted orignal recipe Sawyer dead for whatever reason (perhaps a Dharma spy??) and tempted Locke to get him to perform the deed (You're special... You're the one).
I am not sure I agree. I probably is not fair to say Locke sacrificed Boone. That implies that Locke know Boones was going to die when he asked him to go up in the plane.
Locke's faith in the hatch, or the numbers, ended up being real. In the end, he really did need to be pushing the button and it only is when he lost the "faith" did something bad happen.
I would argue that Locke did not give in to temptation. The temptation to kill his father must have been huge. I know I would seriously be thinking about killing someone who stole my kidney. Anyway, he did not give in to the temptation to kill his father even with the encouragement of the "devil" - Ben and the humiliation of not performing in front of the whole group.

Did anyone else sense this metaphor?
When Ben was trying to get Locke to kill his father, it seemed like he was the devil trying to get a good person to do a bad thing.

And all this talk of Locke being "the One" makes me think of Jesus.

Right at the end of the episode the first thing I said to my husband was: Are they trying to portray Locke as "christ like". Carrrying his father - burden/crucifix on his back - to Ben.

I feel like it's a safe assumption. Always have been a lot of religious undertones to this show.

I don't think Ben's evil. He's jealous of the Island's favoritism for John. ;) That's why he's being a meanie!

Right at the end of the episode the first thing I said to my husband was: Are they trying to portray Locke as "christ like". Carrrying his father - burden/crucifix on his back - to Ben.

I feel like it's a safe assumption. Always have been a lot of religious undertones to this show.

Man, the last time I checked I don't think Christ manipulated anyone into murdering for him. To me Locke is fully culpable not only for the murder of his father but for putting the blood of his father on another man's hands. What he did to James was unspeakably cruel, and it was done for his own benefit, not James'. To me it's just as bad to have engineered the whole thing as to have done it in a moment of extreme emotional duress, as James did. I find Locke chilling, now, and agree that he is becoming a manipulator who gets another to do his dirty work, a la Ben. I don't find any of it remotely Christlike.

And ironically, while he's manipulating James, Locke isn't noticing that once again he's the agent for Ben's dirty work.

I don't think Ben's evil. He's jealous of the Island's favoritism for John. ;) That's why he's being a meanie!


Ben is a demon in disguise IMO. However lost plays out in the end, Ben is not a nice man.

IMO Desmond is a few notches higher on the Jesus-ometer. He's always being reborn, he recieves prophecy.... he even looks like Jesus for crying out loud....

I did really like the scene on the pedestal. Definitely the old devil over one shoulder angel over the other type thing. Except this time there were two devils.It was really a great plan on Ben's part; if Locke did kill him it would show that Locke is under Ben's control, if he didn't it would show that he's weak. I'm glad Alpert helped him. Anyways, I think there's another Bible reference in Ben's denouncing Locke in front of the Others... kind of like public shaming/persecution... could someone with more knowledge of the Bible help out??

IMO Desmond is a few notches higher on the Jesus-ometer. He's always being reborn, he recieves prophecy.... he even looks like Jesus for crying out loud....

I did really like the scene on the pedestal. Definitely the old devil over one shoulder angel over the other type thing. Except this time there were two devils.It was really a great plan on Ben's part; if Locke did kill him it would show that Locke is under Ben's control, if he didn't it would show that he's weak. I'm glad Alpert helped him. Anyways, I think there's another Bible reference in Ben's denouncing Locke in front of the Others... kind of like public shaming/persecution... could someone with more knowledge of the Bible help out??

Don't you think Alpert "helping" him was all part of Ben's plan?

Don't you think Alpert "helping" him was all part of Ben's plan?

Sure, it could be.But if that's the case then we have to rule out embarassing John as a motive, and then we're back at square one. And I, for one, actually believe that that's what Ben was trying to do witth the whole pedestal thing.

Man, the last time I checked I don't think Christ manipulated anyone into murdering for him. To me Locke is fully culpable not only for the murder of his father but for putting the blood of his father on another man's hands. What he did to James was unspeakably cruel, and it was done for his own benefit, not James'. To me it's just as bad to have engineered the whole thing as to have done it in a moment of extreme emotional duress, as James did. I find Locke chilling, now, and agree that he is becoming a manipulator who gets another to do his dirty work, a la Ben. I don't find any of it remotely Christlike.

And ironically, while he's manipulating James, Locke isn't noticing that once again he's the agent for Ben's dirty work.
I guess by Christ-Like I meant that he seems to have been annointed as "the One" by a group of people. Not so much by his behavior, though Ben has indicated that he has started getting better now that Locke is there implying he is a healer which is kind of Christ-Like.

I think that there will be a power struggle that might result in Ben's death.

I am not sure about spoiler font sometimes as that is only my personal theory but I think it is possible. After all...there are to be 5 deaths to wrap up the season. 1 down, 4 more to go. Ben's death would be most unexpected, especially if it came at the hands of the most unexpected killer of all...Locke.

Now that woudl turn things upside down and bring a wild end to the season.

IMO Desmond is a few notches higher on the Jesus-ometer. He's always being reborn, he recieves prophecy.... he even looks like Jesus for crying out loud....

I did really like the scene on the pedestal. Definitely the old devil over one shoulder angel over the other type thing. Except this time there were two devils.It was really a great plan on Ben's part; if Locke did kill him it would show that Locke is under Ben's control, if he didn't it would show that he's weak. I'm glad Alpert helped him. Anyways, I think there's another Bible reference in Ben's denouncing Locke in front of the Others... kind of like public shaming/persecution... could someone with more knowledge of the Bible help out??


I feel ya Admiral! I hope we have some Bible knowledgable folks here.... Judas denounced Jesus.... and public humiliation was a fate that befell Jesus- Pontious Pilot (sp) right?

Sure, it could be.But if that's the case then we have to rule out embarassing John as a motive, and then we're back at square one. And I, for one, actually believe that that's what Ben was trying to do witth the whole pedestal thing.

You think he was trying to humiliate Locke because Locke is a rival? I think he knew that Locke would not kill his father. Ben has shown himself to be a very good judge of character, especially where Locke is concerned. Humiliating Locke served the purpose of getting him sufficiently motivated to go out and manipulate James into doing the killing (Ben had Alpert's help in this--good thing he had the Sawyer file so handy while they were camping). I think Ben knew that Locke was not going to plunge that dagger into Cooper.

BTW, two things struck me during that scene. One, it seemed like a twisted parody of the Abraham and Isaac Bible story Desmond talked about an episode or two ago, with the father-son roles reversed and Ben, the "god" of the Others, urging Locke to go ahead and do it--the pedestal, the fact that Cooper was tied up like an animal in a ritual slaughter, and the fact that a knife was the weapon of choice all add to the impression of a sacrifice on an altar).
Two, how weird, perverse and cult-like the whole thing seemed. Did he really want Locke to stab Cooper to death while the whole camp watched? Including the kids? This is really sick. Ben and the whole Other society could in fact be that sick, or, if they are at all civilized, maybe Ben set up a scenario that he knew Locke could never follow.

I see the Christ-parallels, but they're all tainted.

The Others seem to believe Locke is something special, that he has a special relationship with the island. They WANT him to be special. Ben sees this, too, but seems to be trying to bring Locke's true self out into the open, in a young Jesus sort of way (Locke needs to believe in himself in order to do what he's meant to do).

Locke has a strong faith, and tries to do what he thinks the island wants him to do, but all Locke's attempts at faith and good deeds go punished or are screwed up.

Locke's presence seems to heal Ben faster.

Locke had to display a show of faith, of group-worship, by killing his father. Jesus' display of ultimate faith was death.

Locke carries the body of his father like a cross.

... not quite Christ-like, but in a perverted sense, sure, I see it. An Other Christ type, maybe?

If Locke was a Christ figure, he wouldn't have given into temptation... It's been stated over and over again that Locke is a man of faith, but that faith is a false faith that leads him astray (i.e. sacrificing Boone to the Island, the Hatch, tempting Sawyer to do his dirty work). The Others are master cons who wanted orignal recipe Sawyer dead for whatever reason (perhaps a Dharma spy??) and tempted Locke to get him to perform the deed (You're special... You're the one).

Yup. I think the morality on Lost is much murkier than good/bad/black/white, though Locke the backgammon player would love it if it were that simple ("I didn't kill anyone, therefore I am GOOD"). Locke would LOVE it if he were a Christ figure! He sees himself like that, I think, but it leads him to make huge errors: isn't that the classic character flaw of hubris?

Ben is a decent Satan figure though--really good at encouraging people to act on those flaws, over and over and over again.

I think Locke is still in deep doodoo.
100%
Man, the last time I checked I don't think Christ manipulated anyone into murdering for him. To me Locke is fully culpable not only for the murder of his father but for putting the blood of his father on another man's hands...And ironically, while he's manipulating James, Locke isn't noticing that once again he's the agent for Ben's dirty work.

Yup. That's exactly why I think he's still in deep doodoo.

Did anyone else sense this metaphor?
When Ben was trying to get Locke to kill his father, it seemed like he was the devil trying to get a good person to do a bad thing.

And all this talk of Locke being "the One" makes me think of Jesus.

I no longer view Ben as evil or some metaphor of the devil. If anything, I understand why he wanted Locke to get rid of Cooper.

Locke's presence seems to heal Ben faster.

I think that was actually a huge load of Ben "you're special" b.s. If he really believed that, he wouldn't give a rat's rectum whether Locke passed the "test" or not.

I think that was actually a huge load of Ben "you're special" b.s. If he really believed that, he wouldn't give a rat's rectum whether Locke passed the "test" or not.

Except that Ben was in a wheelchair, being carried around by people, completely immobilized until Locke joined up with them. In a few days, he's up and walking a long distance? If it was just the island, Ben would have immediately started healing, I think. Dunno... could be wrong, but the timing seems good for it.

Personnaly, i see Ben as a sort of Yoda and Locke as Luke Skywalker ...Cooper is Darth vador lol

Except that Ben was in a wheelchair, being carried around by people, completely immobilized until Locke joined up with them. In a few days, he's up and walking a long distance? If it was just the island, Ben would have immediately started healing, I think. Dunno... could be wrong, but the timing seems good for it.

It could also have something to do with the ancient ruins where the Others were camping.

No. If Locke was a Christ figure, he wouldn't have gotten Sawyer to do his dirty work. He would have forgiven Cooper and found another way into Ben's camp. The only way I'll by Locke as a Christ figure is if Cooper comes back to life through the island's healing properties, which Locke has very good reason to know about and perhaps anticipate.

I think what we're looking for are Biblical references. Obviously Locke is a flawed human being, and isn't literally Jesus.

I'm going try to go recruit some help in the Christains ship; see if any of them know a little more about the Bible.

There's clearly a dark, twisted messianic subtext here. Locke and Ben are in competition to be seen as some sort of savior or prophet. Though Locke is about as far from "Christlike" as anyone can get. Now, a Jim Jones-type messiah, maybe . . .

me personally, i wouldn't say Locke was a Christ-figure or a Devil-figure. I think Ben is taking the role of "god" in this story. I think Locke wants to have faith in the island so bad that he's willing to do anything, but doesnt have the heart to kill the man he hates, but still loves. Then he went to enlist the help of the man that was also hurt by his dad.

now i had to edit because i dont mean by any standard that Ben is "God" I'm just saying he acts like he plays the role of making decisions...he's not a nice guy at all...so i wouldn't say he's like God

I am not sure I agree. I probably is not fair to say Locke sacrificed Boone. That implies that Locke know Boones was going to die when he asked him to go up in the plane.

Locke stated that Boone was the sacrifice the Island demanded in Exodus. He was willing to sacrifice his "son" figure to the Island to get the answers he wanted just like he was willing to sacrifice his father to the Island for the same reason.

Locke's faith in the hatch, or the numbers, ended up being real. In the end, he really did need to be pushing the button and it only is when he lost the "faith" did something bad happen.

Cuse and Lindelof have stated that the Hatch really brings out the worst in people... It's metaphorical of the evil of human nature. That's not something that I would want to place my faith in.

I would argue that Locke did not give in to temptation. The temptation to kill his father must have been huge. I know I would seriously be thinking about killing someone who stole my kidney. Anyway, he did not give in to the temptation to kill his father even with the encouragement of the "devil" - Ben and the humiliation of not performing in front of the whole group.

He just got someone else to do it for him, which makes morally (even if he wasn't legally culpable). Locke's earlier inability to kill his father might show that he is at heart a good man... He's just someone whose desire to believe in something and to belong leads him astray. But that doesn't make him a Christ figure.

If anyone's the Christ figure in Lost, it's Desmond. After all, he's the one who selflessly sacrificed himself in the Season 2 finale...

Locke stated that Boone was the sacrifice the Island demanded in Exodus. He was willing to sacrifice his "son" figure to the Island to get the answers he wanted just like he was willing to sacrifice his father to the Island for the same reason.
Still, Locke did not sacrifice Boone. He made have stated after the fact that Boone was a sacrifice to the island, but that does not mean that Locke sacrificed him.



Cuse and Lindelof have stated that the Hatch really brings out the worst in people... It's metaphorical of the evil of human nature. That's not something that I would want to place my faith in.

The characters of Lost are not aware of what Cuse and Lindelof state. The fact remains that Locke had faith in the numbers and the faith was accurate.

He just got someone else to do it for him, which makes morally (even if he wasn't legally culpable). Locke's earlier inability to kill his father might show that he is at heart a good man... He's just someone whose desire to believe in something and to belong leads him astray. But that doesn't make him a Christ figure.

If anyone's the Christ figure in Lost, it's Desmond. After all, he's the one who selflessly sacrificed himself in the Season 2 finale...
Locke has been declared "the One". He also seems to be healing Ben. These are both Christ-Like qualities. I agree that there are also UnChrist-Like qualities about Locke, but I never said he was Christ, only Christ-Like.

Personnaly, i see Ben as a sort of Yoda and Locke as Luke Skywalker ...Cooper is Darth vador lol

Actually you have an interesting point. Ben could be like Sidious, he's good at manipulating both forces into doing what he wants, and he has a rising pupil, Locke, who in this case is Anakin-like, in killing (even though he didn't actually kill him, he is still responsible, because he set it up so that sawyer would kill him) Cooper, who is evil (he stole a kidney from his own son) would be Count Dooku in this metaphore. Ben may also be responsible for the arrival of the plane, and by extension, Locke, just like Sidious was probably the one who caused the immaculate conception in Shmi Skywalker and led to Anakin's birth/arrival.

What do you guys think about this analogy?

I'm pretty sure Jesus never tricked someone else into doing his dirty work for him. Locke is slowly turning into Ben in this respect, which leads me to...

...sort of believe the Locke/Ben situation is what others have said: that the Others want Locke to replace Ben, or that Ben is honing him as his replacement. Alternatively, Ben just wants Locke around to do his dirty work (submarine sabotage) for him and plans to just string him along with promises of greatness and mystical abilities of the island, but never really give him any freedom or power.
On the other hand, I think Ben genuinely needs Locke and wants him around, even if to just study him as a specimen, because of Locke's unique "communion" with the island. Harness the power of Locke! or some such thing
Locke's desire to learn more about the island and his need for belief in higher and mystical powers keeps him in Ben's hands, even though Locke deludes himself into thinking he's in control of himself.

I actually thought of Star Wars as well when Cooper was chained up to the column, except that it seemed to me that Ben=the evil Emperor, Locke=Luke Skywalker, and Cooper =Darth Vader.

Ben was trying to talk him into giving in to the hate, and kill his father. After what Locke did to Sawyer, I would tend to think he did give in to the hate, and that he is truly an "Other" now :(

Still, Locke did not sacrifice Boone. He made have stated after the fact that Boone was a sacrifice to the island, but that does not mean that Locke sacrificed him.

But he was fine with the sacrifice since it justified Locke's own personal crusade. He was beginning to lose his ability to walk, and he got it back after Boone was sacrificed. Locke is willing to sacrifice others for his own personal quest unlike Jesus who sacrificed himself to save others. In that vain, the Christ-like figure on Lost is Desmond, who sacrificed himself to save others.


The characters of Lost are not aware of what Cuse and Lindelof state. The fact remains that Locke had faith in the numbers and the faith was accurate.

But as viewers, we certainly should see and understand that even though the characters didn't... The Hatch was not a place of faith... It was always filmed as dark and dreary and the most horrible incidents from Season 2 (i.e. Ana Lucia and Libby, Benry torture, etc.) took place in the Hatch.

BTW, it turns out that it wasn't necessary to push the button... The failsafe key could ended whatever bad thing that Dharma was doing, but Dharma was banking on the fact that none of its "volunteers" would be willing to sacrifice their lives to turn it.

Locke has been declared "the One". He also seems to be healing Ben. These are both Christ-Like qualities. I agree that there are also UnChrist-Like qualities about Locke, but I never said he was Christ, only Christ-Like.

More likely Benry is manipulating Locke to get Locke to do his bidding.

Personnaly, i see Ben as a sort of Yoda and Locke as Luke Skywalker ...Cooper is Darth vador lol

Surely there was a big wink to Star Wars when Ben starts waddling around with his walking stick like Yoda. The way he used it to poke Locke/Luke awake was a straight copy. And then he tells him he has to kill his father!

A couple of points:

1) If Locke was really "healing" Ben, then it would make sense to keep him around instead of leaving him behind with no guarantees he was going to come back. At the same time, pretending to be ill and weak would be just Ben's style.

2) What in Ben's behaviour or character has ever suggested he wants to hand over his power to anybody?

I think that, if Ben is the devil, then Jack is Christ, while Locke is self-convinced he's Christ. Of all the Losties, if there's the option of devil-christ fight, the only one is Jack Shephard. I love Locke a lot more than Jack, but I have to be honest: if Locke is Christ, then who is Jack? Giuda cheats Jesus, because he's envier and deceived, 'cause he's not the leader of apostles. I will not surprise if at the end of this season of Lost Locke will betray Jack in front of the Others. But maybe this reference to scriptures are only pure waste of time?

I'm by no means a bible scholar, but my understanding of the whole life story of Jesus was that God made Jesus a man, who would walk among us, live his life and - most importnatly - sin like all the other humans.

Then in the lead up to his death on the cross, he asked God to forgive him of his sins so that he could be reborn and raised to heaven as an example for all other humans.

I just think that if people are discussing the Christ-like qualities of a character, we have to remember that Jesus wasn't a perfect human, he had flaws like anyone else...much like the characters on the show

I think ben is playing more of the part of the pharasie... Locke actually refered to him as one a few episodes ago.

I am a pastor so i do have a pretty good knowlege of the Bible... here is what i think.

In Luke: The Devil/ Satan is tempting Christ, he brings him to places and offers him things if he would only submit to the Devil. This started what was know as the minsirty of Jesus...Jesus officially launched his ministry following the 40 days in the wilderness and after the 3 major temptations.

As to the public shaming... the Bible says that "there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Chirst." which means...If Jesus is your savior...he doesnt heap any guild or shame... that comes from the enemy...SOOOOOO....

Any shame or publuc humilation is kind of anti-God like. The pharaises are notorious for the self ritgheousness... and for public humilation / shaming. I think this plays back into the whole...you know the law, but you dont understand the ehart of the law... you know the island, but you have forgotten the hart of the island.

I thnk he is playing the part of a wounded pharasie, who is pissed because he is not speacial, only able to recognize those that are.

Surely there was a big wink to Star Wars when Ben starts waddling around with his walking stick like Yoda. The way he used it to poke Locke/Luke awake was a straight copy. And then he tells him he has to kill his father!

Exactly!;)

At the request of Admiral Pressman... I'll step up to bat for the scripture side of things...

I'm by no means a bible scholar, but my understanding of the whole life story of Jesus was that God made Jesus a man, who would walk among us, live his life and - most importnatly - sin like all the other humans.

2 Corinthians 5:21 - "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

I thought that was important to point out. Christ was tempted to sin like we all are... but was without sin.

Now back on topic to Locke=Christ? I don't think so for the same reasons that folks have already pointed out. He manipulated Sawyer to murder his father because Ben wanted him to so he could join the crowd? Not something that jives with Jesus' teachings... one example :


Matthew 5:43-47 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?"

Ben's MO has always been manipulation. If he is trying to get Locke to improve his character by killing his father... that's just weird. He used the words "free-will" in the same breath as "have to"...


Ben - The magic box is a metaphor, John. I can't show you anything until you can show me that you're ready and willing to be one of us. When people join us here on this island, they need to make a gesture of free will...of commitment. That's why you're gonna have to kill your father.


Some free will.

I'm not sold on Ben=Devil either. I'm still stinging from how nasty Cooper was to Sawyer. Ben is bad... and I am really curious where the writers are going... and if you want scriptures that illustrate what the devil is like... well... they're out there. I just think it is really a too easy parallel to make. Maybe it's because I feel it would be lame if the losties are on "hell on earth"... it's too close to the purgatory idea. blech

Anyway... hope I was helpful Admiral Pressman.

Namaste!

With all the dark symbolism surrounding Locke - I'm afraid his fate is sealed.

We are more upset with Sawyer killing Cooper than Locke - because Locke pretends to be a sage, so we expect him to act like one. The way he went about doing the deed, he tried to have it both ways.

I just don't think his actions can be justified anymore. The island chose him because he could be manipulated the easiest.

Locke is not a bad guy, but he is dedicated to something that is sinister, and false. Ever since the episode Eko died in, when the image of his brother mocked him, for thinking he was really his brother, or from God basically, I just have a hard time believing the island is a good force.

I don't know. My only hope for Locke is that in Season 4, he starts to wise up and sacrifices himself to save the losties, giving up the use of his legs. I don't want to see him knowingly ebrace evil.

Devenproject--I agree. Nice post.

[quote=myothercarisflight815;1531720]

I thought that was important to point out. Christ was tempted to sin like we all are... but was without sin.


Ah - I now get it...God made Jesus able to sin like the rest of us, but he didn't. Thanks for the clarification. That's why I said I wasn't a bible scholar... ;)

I'm sure there's a Sunday School teacher of mine pretty disappointed right now!

Surely there was a big wink to Star Wars when Ben starts waddling around with his walking stick like Yoda. The way he used it to poke Locke/Luke awake was a straight copy. And then he tells him he has to kill his father!
Even Star Wars seems to be pseudo-christian based. Where the Emperor is the devil and Obi Wan or Yoda is God/Jesus.

Even Star Wars seems to be pseudo-christian based. Where the Emperor is the devil and Obi Wan or Yoda is God/Jesus.

really ... but stories from the beginning of time have the good guy vs. bad guy thing going on...

Cuse and Lindelof have stated that the Hatch really brings out the worst in people... It's metaphorical of the evil of human nature. That's not something that I would want to place my faith in..

Actually, I would go as far as to say all the Dharma stations and Othersville represent the evil of human nature, in that they exploit the powers of the Island for mans pursuit of knowledge, kind of like the pursuit of earthly knowledge corrupting the garden of eden kind of thing. I've kind of had the feeling that the Island wasn't too happy with the Dharma people being there and it's been leading John to remove all traces of Dharma. My own humble prediction is that Ben is getting better only because he's begun living in harmony with the land and isn't living in a station or Othersville. I wouldn't be surprised if preganancy isn't such a problem anymore.

really ... but stories from the beginning of time have the good guy vs. bad guy thing going on...
True. Good vs. Evil predates Christianity. But it almost always traces back to God vs. Devil.

I think that was actually a huge load of Ben "you're special" b.s. If he really believed that, he wouldn't give a rat's rectum whether Locke passed the "test" or not.

Thanks for mentioning this. Ben's cane slap to Cooper's head seemed awfully swift for a guy who's barely walking again. It made me think that he probably has been able to walk for quite a while. Making Locke think he had something to do with Ben's healing was all part of making Locke believe he's special.

Actually you have an interesting point. Ben could be like Sidious, he's good at manipulating both forces into doing what he wants, and he has a rising pupil, Locke, who in this case is Anakin-like, in killing (even though he didn't actually kill him, he is still responsible, because he set it up so that sawyer would kill him) Cooper, who is evil (he stole a kidney from his own son) would be Count Dooku in this metaphore. Ben may also be responsible for the arrival of the plane, and by extension, Locke, just like Sidious was probably the one who caused the immaculate conception in Shmi Skywalker and led to Anakin's birth/arrival.

What do you guys think about this analogy?


I don't think that Ben is evil. His comments to Locke about Cooper rang a little too true for me. If anything, he reminds me of a West African trickster figure named Eshu-Elegbara, who is the gatekeeper between the realms of man and gods. Eshu-Elegbara embodies many obvious trickster elements - deceit, humor, lawlessness and sexuality - in order to assist an individual into spiritual and character development. His European counterpart would be Hermes.


I also don't believe that Sidious was the reason behind Anakin Skywalker's immaculate conception.

I don't think that Ben is evil. His comments to Locke about Cooper rang a little too true for me. If anything, he reminds me of a West African trickster figure named Eshu-Elegbara, who is the gatekeeper between the realms of man and gods. Eshu-Elegbara embodies many obvious trickster elements - deceit, humor, lawlessness and sexuality - in order to assist an individual into spiritual and character development. His European counterpart would be Hermes.


I also don't believe that Sidious was the reason behind Anakin Skywalker's immaculate conception.
Lucas confirmed it with the plaguies novel that was canceled due to not enough material to write about.

I wouldn't necessarily think that the writers of the show are trying a Satan-Jesus corrallory with Ben and Locke, but I do think they are trying to bind the two characters together.

Clearly, there is something special about Ben - it has been documented that he was born on the island - maybe he is the last one? Hence, his becoming the special one for the "Others" -

Similarly, Locke is considered special - as discussed on the mountain side.

There are some subtelties in the dialogue that suggests this as well - most importantly, Ben telling Locke "Don't tell me what I can't do" - a pretty clear shout-out to Locke and his long-time mantra.

I wouldn't necessarily think that the writers of the show are trying a Satan-Jesus corrallory with Ben and Locke, but I do think they are trying to bind the two characters together.

Clearly, there is something special about Ben - it has been documented that he was born on the island - maybe he is the last one? Hence, his becoming the special one for the "Others" -

Similarly, Locke is considered special - as discussed on the mountain side.

There are some subtelties in the dialogue that suggests this as well - most importantly, Ben telling Locke "Don't tell me what I can't do" - a pretty clear shout-out to Locke and his long-time mantra.

Oh I saw that as totally a slap in the face to Locke. I am really eager to find out more about Ben. I don't know if we get a Ben flashback episode this season or not? If ever. But I would love to see a Ben/Locke showdown. Either that, or to see the Ben character redeemed, i.e. have the writers change my mind about his badness.

Oh I saw that as totally a slap in the face to Locke. I am really eager to find out more about Ben. I don't know if we get a Ben flashback episode this season or not? If ever. But I would love to see a Ben/Locke showdown. Either that, or to see the Ben character redeemed, i.e. have the writers change my mind about his badness.
I think tomorrows episode is Ben-Centric.

IMO Desmond is a few notches higher on the Jesus-ometer. He's always being reborn, he recieves prophecy.... he even looks like Jesus for crying out loud....
Yeah, which may have something to do with the fact that he came to Lost right after portraying Jesus in "The Book of John," apparently without even getting a haircut first! :biggrin:
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You think he was trying to humiliate Locke because Locke is a rival?
Yes, all Ben really cares about is his own power. The people are looking to Locke as a potential "messiah" (well, or prophet, anyway), and Ben has to show ever indication of wanting the good of the people, but his motives are to eliminate Locke as a threat to his power.

BTW, two things struck me during that scene. One, it seemed like a twisted parody of the Abraham and Isaac Bible story Desmond talked about an episode or two ago, with the father-son roles reversed and Ben, the "god" of the Others, urging Locke to go ahead and do it--the pedestal, the fact that Cooper was tied up like an animal in a ritual slaughter, and the fact that a knife was the weapon of choice all add to the impression of a sacrifice on an altar).Absolutely. It was set up like a ritual human sacrifice, complete with an ancient stone alter. It was a little bit like the Devil tempting Jesus, to give him power in return for compliance. It was also a little bit like the temptation of all the kings of Israel to enter into worship of the Baals, some of which involved human sacrifice.

His eventual choice seemed to me like a choice to let justice take its course rather than to perform the sacrifice. If there was a justice system on the island, and he could just turn him over to the cops, it would be a different story. As it is, I don't have a quarrel with his actions, or think it was cruel towards James.
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I think that, if Ben is the devil, then Jack is Christ, while Locke is self-convinced he's Christ. Of all the Losties, if there's the option of devil-christ fight, the only one is Jack Shephard. I love Locke a lot more than Jack, but I have to be honest: if Locke is Christ, then who is Jack? Giuda cheats Jesus, because he's envier and deceived, 'cause he's not the leader of apostles. I will not surprise if at the end of this season of Lost Locke will betray Jack in front of the Others. But maybe this reference to scriptures are only pure waste of time?
I don't think so. Jack is constantly full of anger and quick to judge others, although he is almost always willing to self-sacrifice for others. OTOH, Locke has a gentle way of helping others, and speaking in parables, and a forgiving nature (remember, when he was at what he believed to be his father's grave and said, "I forgive you.") OTOH, neither is supposed to be Jesus, but fallible people. Allusions in their characters or their stories to Jesus would be another matter.
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I'm by no means a bible scholar, but my understanding of the whole life story of Jesus was that God made Jesus a man, who would walk among us, live his life and - most importantly - sin like all the other humans.

Then in the lead up to his death on the cross, he asked God to forgive him of his sins so that he could be reborn and raised to heaven as an example for all other humans.

I just think that if people are discussing the Christ-like qualities of a character, we have to remember that Jesus wasn't a perfect human, he had flaws like anyone else...much like the characters on the show

As someone else said a little differently, Jesus was the spirit of God made flesh, to walk among us, live his life, and be tempted like us, but to conquer all those temptations by his own power, and not to sin. By so doing, he made that human self part of his divine self, and subjugated the hells, which tempt man, under the power of his Divine Human. He did this so that people then, by looking to him, in his human form, could by his power also overcome temptation, so that they could repent of their sins and be forgiven. Which was the original message of John the Baptists -- "repentance for the forgiveness of sins", repentance not just meaning asking forgiveness but amending one's life. What Jesus did on earth made it possible again, after the fall of man, for man to amend his life through His power. And this is why the very first prophecy of Jesus is immediately after the initial fall of man, when it says that the seed of woman shall crush the head of the serpent.
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I just don't think his actions can be justified anymore. The island chose him because he could be manipulated the easiest.

Locke is not a bad guy, but he is dedicated to something that is sinister, and false. Ever since the episode Eko died in, when the image of his brother mocked him, for thinking he was really his brother, or from God basically, I just have a hard time believing the island is a good force.

I'm still with locke. But time will tell. As for the island. I go back to what Locke said so meaningfully in the pilot -- "one side light... one side dark." I think the island has both a powerful good force and a powerful evil force.
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The Jesus parallel that stood out the most for me, but I didn't see mentioned in this thread, was Locke walking all that way carrying his father's body like one would carry a cross. That doesn't make Locke parallel Jesus necessarily, as Jesus said, "whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple." The cross symbolizing each persons own personal trials and temptations which weigh them down, as the cross symbolized all the temptations that Jesus had overcome. Well, his father was certainly the cross that Locke had to bear for the latter part of his life.

Could that mean the real Jesus character is Jacob? And John took up his cross and journeyed after Jacob, just as he metaphorically did on the whole path that lead him to the island. After all it is Jacob who purportedly performs the miracles. And then with the cabin, there's the whole, "You have eyes, but do not see. You have ears, but do not hear." And then there's Ben, who claims to be the sole seer and hearer of Jacob, but really just does his own self-serving will in Jacob's name -- like an evil pope of yore or a "false prophet".