Ben had asked for Locke and was listening to Juliet's tape when Locke got there. And he put the recorder in a drawer while Locke was there. I think he wanted Lock to take it back to the beach. Maybe she's too much of a liability now.

Ben had asked for Locke and was listening to Juliet's tape when Locke got there. And he put the recorder in a drawer while Locke was there. I think he wanted Lock to take it back to the beach. Maybe she's too much of a liability now.


I am also convinced this was Ben's manipulation.

Oh yea, Ben knew exactly what he was doing. He wants Juliet ousted by the Losties on the beach. I also think that Ben suspects that Juliet is plotting against him with Jack.

It's nearly impossible to know who is really conning who here. Ben always seems to get the upper hand, but maybe Juliet has a plan too. I think there's still way more to Ben than we even guess at.

Oh yea, Ben knew exactly what he was doing. He wants Juliet ousted by the Losties on the beach. I also think that Ben suspects that Juliet is plotting against him with Jack.

Exactly. There was a little foreshadowing of this during the whole Juliet asked Jack to kill Ben thing. Ben knows there is something going on between them, and he's expecting the worst case scenario- that they are plotting against him, maybe even to kill him.

This is a nice parallel to Locke and Sawyer as well. Locke wanted Cooper dead, but he gets Sawyer to do it instead. Ben wants revenge on Juliet for wanting to kill him, but he'll get the Losties to do it for him.

Perhaps both Ben and Locke are afraid the island (smokie?) will destroy them if they do it themselves?

I thought that too at the time. If he wasn't setting up either Juliet or Locke, then he would have confronted Locke when he was breaking down the camp about the missing tape recorder.

It's interesting to see the dynamic between Ben and Juliet. They constantly seem to be trying to out do or undermine each other. (with Ben in the lead of course) Ben definitely set Juliet up, and I'm pretty sure the writerswanted that to come accross. Ben was listening to the tape when Locke came in and the camera focused on Ben's putting the tape in the drawer so Locke can see.
The interesting thing to see in the up coming episodes is WHY Ben wants Juliet to be outed to the Losties and what Juliet's reaction will be,

I was wondering this too and it does seem highly possible. The other thing I was wondering was, did Ben know that the guy who hired Juliet gave Locke Sawyer's file and planted the seed in Locke's head to have Locke kill Cooper? Did this guy do this behind Ben's back or are they all in on it?

Ben had asked for Locke and was listening to Juliet's tape when Locke got there. And he put the recorder in a drawer while Locke was there. I think he wanted Lock to take it back to the beach. Maybe she's too much of a liability now.

I'm sure too that it's all a plan designed by Ben...but i think there's a possibility that juliet knows...the week is almost done... maybe the "i hate you" at the end of the tape was because she knew what he was going to do with it and didn't like that part of the plan???:confused:

I was wondering this too and it does seem highly possible. The other thing I was wondering was, did Ben know that the guy who hired Juliet gave Locke Sawyer's file and planted the seed in Locke's head to have Locke kill Cooper? Did this guy do this behind Ben's back or are they all in on it?
i think richard is one of ben's most trusted aides, he was pushing his wheelchair when they took locke to see cooper in TMFT, richard also appearred to be filming juliets sister and the baby on the outside. i think anything he does is for bens benefit.

I don't think it is a set up.

Remember that the whole Jack/Juliet thing was set into motion a long time ago - they were already planning for Juliet to go to beach camp when Paulo saw her and Ben in the Pearl. Everything so far between Jack/Juliet has been part of that plan. Juliet asking Jack to kill Ben was part getting him to trust her
.
I also can't see why Ben would send Jules to beachcamp if he thought she was such a liability, because she could easily reveal so much about the Others and their activities if she wanted to.

I think Ben revealing everything to Locke was very deliberate. Ben had anticipated the involvement of Sawyer, through Alpert he had forced Locke's hand in that respect, and he knew that Locke had enough loyalty left to want to warn the Losties. So whatever's going on it's all part of the plan.

I don't think it is a set up.

Remember that the whole Jack/Juliet thing was set into motion a long time ago - they were already planning for Juliet to go to beach camp when Paulo saw her and Ben in the Pearl. Everything so far between Jack/Juliet has been part of that plan. Juliet asking Jack to kill Ben was part getting him to trust her
.
I also can't see why Ben would send Jules to beachcamp if he thought she was such a liability, because she could easily reveal so much about the Others and their activities if she wanted to.


I agree with you. And he loves her so he's not gonna take the risk of making her being killed by sawyer or another guy.

But i'm not sure that Richard is on Ben's side... i think he's the traitor...i don't think Ben really wanted Locke to kill his father...he just meant kill him psychologically to me.

But i'm not sure that Richard is on Ben's side... i think he's the traitor...i don't think Ben really wanted Locke to kill his father...he just meant kill him psychologically to me.

I'm not so sure that Alpert is a traitor.

He says to Locke that
a) Ben wanted to embarrass him - I think that's true, I think that Ben feels his authority threatened by Locke and that he's jealous because Locke is 'special'
b) Ben is wasting time on fertility research - I think this is a lie. Jacob must have thought that Juliet's work was important, because he intervened personally to heal her sister
c) In order for Locke to fulfil his potential Cooper had to be killed - this is exactly what Ben wants anyway.

I think a) and b) were just to get Locke to trust Alpert. If Alpert had just appeared with Sawyer's file then Locke would suspect that Ben had sent him. By criticising Ben, Alpert gives the impression that he is acting independently.

Ben knew Locke couldn't kill daddy. . .just as Alpert said. Ben built his plan around this fact. That's why Locke heard the recording, and got to take the recorder. Alpert's slipping Locke the James Ford file was BEN'S idea. Ben had to be sure that Locke got that recorder to James--so James would take it back to beach camp, play it, and cause a split in camp loyalties between him (and maybe Sayid) and Jack. Ben knew EXACTLY what he was doing all along. . .and Alpert carried out Ben's orders.

On the other hand, I truly believe that what Alpert was telling Locke about not liking Ben's priorities, that Ben had gone "off course" from the Original Goals of the Others--I believe he was telling Locke THE TRUTH about that.

Alpert is playing both sides against the middle. He knows what Ben's doing, and that Ben is still holding on to power at the moment. On the other hand, he also knows what the people are thinking about Locke--and that Locke, indeed, might have the communion with the Island Ben lacks. Thus, he is a potential USURPER. So he's obeying Ben AND working Locke. . .so that whoever wins this little power struggle, he can claim (reasonably legitimately) that he'd been on the winner's side all along. Thus, Alpert keeps HIS position of power--and maybe can influence future events HIS way. Alpert and Machiavelli would've liked each other A LOT, I think!

I'm not so sure that Alpert is a traitor.

He says to Locke that
a) Ben wanted to embarrass him - I think that's true, I think that Ben feels his authority threatened by Locke and that he's jealous because Locke is 'special'

I don't believe this is true, there's a scene when Ben wake John up with his cane, this is a reference to Star wars where Ben is Yoda and Locke is Luke skywalker...i don't think Ben is jealous of Locke...the fact that he said locke isn't ready it's totally star wars! And in star wars luke has to kill his father in the end...
I really think Ben wants to help John...but thinks John's not ready!

b) Ben is wasting time on fertility research - I think this is a lie. Jacob must have thought that Juliet's work was important, because he intervened personally to heal her sister

I think this is a lie too...but we can see that Richard is not interested in "giving life" but prefer "giving death" by giving john the file...not my conception of a "good guy" and he's workink for Mittelos bioscience...and i think this society is probably owned by Mittelwerk judging by the name... and we know from lost experience that mittelwork wasn't on the clean side...

Of course there's another explanation...Ben loves juliet so he's only interested in the fertility problem because he wants her to stay...but i don't think it's just that.

c) In order for Locke to fulfil his potential Cooper had to be killed - this is exactly what Ben wants anyway.

I don't think...i really believe Ben knew Locke won't kill his father...and maybe he was proud of that...i think Ben has a doubt about Richard... so he sent Rousseau (yeah i really start thinking that Rousseau is on Ben side...and maybe she just left him a daughter for a reason we don't know yet)

By criticising Ben, Alpert gives the impression that he is acting independently.

i agree but i think he only tries to corrupt locke so Ben can be deceived by locke's action. I really think Ben believe in LOcke despite what he said... he's a good liar we all know that.
I think he was just trying to con Locke to help him to kill symbolically his father...
in the past what he has done? he helped Sawyer and kate to be together...and he confronted jack with his "fix thing" problem by wanting him to operate...he even helped locke in the hatch by "being the good father" the guy who was there for him when he has the leg problem.


But i agree Ben's actions are really difficult to interpret...but i choose to believe he is in fact on the good side like he always say. :biggrin: (we are the good guys lol)

a) Ben wanted to embarrass him - I think that's true, I think that Ben feels his authority threatened by Locke and that he's jealous because Locke is 'special'
I don't know about embarrass but I think he wanted Locke to appear weak. I think there was more to this test than was readily apparent in "the Brig."


b) Ben is wasting time on fertility research - I think this is a lie. Jacob must have thought that Juliet's work was important, because he intervened personally to heal her sister
I agree that this is a lie but I don't think Jacob had anything to do with healing Rachael(?). I think she was fine all along and telling Juliet she wasn't was the scam.


c) In order for Locke to fulfil his potential Cooper had to be killed - this is exactly what Ben wants anyway.
I'm not sure where I am with this. I know the Others have an "eye for an eye" culture but I just don't see the logic in asking Locke to kill the man to free himself from the past. The guilt of killing him would only create more distracting problems. I wonder if Locke was supposed to say "no" and wonder what the reaction will be now that he hasn't.


Alpert is playing both sides against the middle. He knows what Ben's doing, and that Ben is still holding on to power at the moment. On the other hand, he also knows what the people are thinking about Locke--and that Locke, indeed, might have the communion with the Island Ben lacks. Thus, he is a potential USURPER. So he's obeying Ben AND working Locke. . .so that whoever wins this little power struggle, he can claim (reasonably legitimately) that he'd been on the winner's side all along.
Very astute observation. I agree with this. I find Richard a very intriguing character and wonder where he fits into the hierarchy.

Alpert is playing both sides against the middle. He knows what Ben's doing, and that Ben is still holding on to power at the moment. On the other hand, he also knows what the people are thinking about Locke--and that Locke, indeed, might have the communion with the Island Ben lacks. Thus, he is a potential USURPER. So he's obeying Ben AND working Locke. . .so that whoever wins this little power struggle, he can claim (reasonably legitimately) that he'd been on the winner's side all along. Thus, Alpert keeps HIS position of power--and maybe can influence future events HIS way. Alpert and Machiavelli would've liked each other A LOT, I think!

I like this theory, STH.
It's not something I originally considered beacuse we have seen so little of Alpert, but I think you may have something there.