I noticed two things tonight ...

I'm not a religious man (even though I went to Catholic school as a kid), so if anyone could explain or expand .... Am I crazy, but weren't they doing a Christ-like thing with Sawyer? All that shoe-less walking through the jungle ... the bleeding feet ?? It reminded me of the stations of the cross. And then he ended up at the ship's brig.

Also ... Cooper tied up and Locke at his throat with the knife. In CATCH-22 Desmond got to discuss the Abraham/Isaac story ... I thought that the Locke/Cooper knife scene was very similar. Locke was tested. Brother Campbell would have said that Locke had a lesson of faith. Desmond would have said the test wasn't fair.

The homage I noticed in tonight's episode ..... When Sawyer strangled Cooper/Sawyer, I thought it was almost shot-for-shot like when Princess Leia strangles Jabba the Hut in RETURN OF THE JEDI.

Anyone else notice imagery or homages to other films tonight?

I was struck by the scene when Locke lifted up Cooper's body and began his journey to the others - it reminded me of Jesus carrying his crucifixion cross.

Am I crazy, but weren't they doing a Christ-like thing with Sawyer? All that shoe-less walking through the jungle ... the bleeding feet ?? It reminded me of the stations of the cross. And then he ended up at the ship's brig.


I didn't really see the parallel (then I usually never do until much later:biggrin: ), but I'll throw you a bone: his mother's name was Mary.

The whole Ben saying "He's not who we thought he was", referring to Locke just screamed "they want him to be their Messiah" to me. It was not like Richard tried to trick him into believing (Ben was shaming you blah blah) but more like Ben was asking for a sign of Locke's divinity.
Side note: Since Ben told Locke that he had to so something to become one of them, what do you guys think Cindy had to do? She has obviously been "welcomed" into the clan.

what do you guys think Cindy had to do? She has obviously been "welcomed" into the clan.I'm still hoping she will be a regular next season. and we get to see her flash back. I'm betting it's the first epp of season 4, but after the next ep all bets are off.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I thought it was interesting that they chose the Black Rock as the place for James to have his showdown with "Sawyer". It was in the brig, a place where slaves were kept and it was in the place that Sawyer's soul was freed. IMO anyway. Also, Sawyer has sort had this "heart of darkness" journey and has arguably had a "black" heart because of his dark past and had to go to the darkest place thus far in his life to face his demons once and for all.

... Also, Sawyer has ... this "heart of darkness" journey and has arguably had a "black" heart because of his dark past and had to go to the darkest place thus far in his life to face his demons once and for all.

I edited the above for space.

I disagree that Sawyer had a "black heart."

After "The Hurley Project" (to soften Sawyer) Sawyer did begin to become more cordial to people around him. Plus, he's getting laid - which would make any man more courteous and hospitable.

After emerging from the Black Rock, he vomits. He is sick of what he has done. That sickness, the remorse of taking another life, shows that Sawyer was repentant. Remorse is a sign of a "good heart." You can't fake that. It was sincere and honest.

If Sawyer had a "black heart" he would have felt nothing after killing Cooper.

P. S. In a court of law, Sawyer's actions would fall under "a crime of passion" and he would have been found not guilty.

The imagery I liked was the use of the Black Rock, because Sawyer and Locke were both slaves to their past.

When you think about it, the writers could have made John leave Cooper at any tree stump or rock anywhere on the island instead the picked a slave ship.

Also at the end, James asks Locke if his father really left him paralyzed and his response was, 'not any more' b/c he's no longer handicapped (metaphorically) from the shadow of Cooper.

I like the whole theory of Sawyer walking through the forest barefoot/Jesus thing, and he also washes his feet in the water ... redemption through water?

I also liked the ROTJ reference, very funny! Aren't they on a barge (ship?) when Leia kills Jabba? BTW lost-dude are you insinuating that sawyer is now the princess Leia of the island? Now there's an avatar!

@walterneff: LOL ... I'm waiting to see that avatar. Sawyer is kinda pretty like Princess Leia. Instead of cutting his hair next time, Kate could just roll it up into two little buns.

@Dolphinjen: Mary .... Wow, you're so right!! Missed that. I don't know if it's intentional, but it's certainly cool. I re-watched Season 1 recently for Locke's flashback. In the episode where his crazy mother appears, there's all sorts of religious references. She says he was a virgin birth. When Locke tells Cooper what she said, Cooper laughs and says, "I guess that makes me God."

@Damian254: I didn't consider the slave imagery. Right on! That makes sense, too.

Also ... Cooper tied up and Locke at his throat with the knife. In CATCH-22 Desmond got to discuss the Abraham/Isaac story ... I thought that the Locke/Cooper knife scene was very similar. Locke was tested. Brother Campbell would have said that Locke had a lesson of faith. Desmond would have said the test wasn't fair.


This is very insightful. The comparisons did not occur to me last night, but you are right on. Thanks, lost_dude.

The homage I noticed in tonight's episode ..... When Sawyer strangled Cooper/Sawyer, I thought it was almost shot-for-shot like when Princess Leia strangles Jabba the Hut in RETURN OF THE JEDI.

Anyone else notice imagery or homages to other films tonight?

I knew that scene looked familiar! Good call, I think your dead on. I love all Star Wars references in Lost!

P. S. In a court of law, Sawyer's actions would fall under "a crime of passion" and he would have been found not guilty.
incorrect. a 'crime of passion' just means that it wasn't premeditated, therefore he would be guilty of second-degree murder, but not first degree.

The whole Ben saying "He's not who we thought he was", referring to Locke just screamed "they want him to be their Messiah" to me. It was not like Richard tried to trick him into believing (Ben was shaming you blah blah) but more like Ben was asking for a sign of Locke's divinity.
Side note: Since Ben told Locke that he had to so something to become one of them, what do you guys think Cindy had to do? She has obviously been "welcomed" into the clan.

how would murder be a sign of divinity in anything but the most anti-human religion? I posted another thread about this.

incorrect. a 'crime of passion' just means that it wasn't premeditated, therefore he would be guilty of second-degree murder, but not first degree.

Oops! You're right. What was I thinking? Or could it be "by reason of insanity?"

That's what I was thinking a good lawyer would argue: by reason of insanity. I don't think he was in a state of mind at that moment where he was fully, cognitively aware of what he was doing. It was literally a blind rage.

I knew that scene looked familiar! Good call, I think your dead on. I love all Star Wars references in Lost!


Yep, I threw up a little in my mouth because I couldn't help but picture Sawyer in a gold bikini while watching last night.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does anyone with a better knowledge or memory of RotJ than me know if that was indeed a shot by shot recreation? I seem to remember a shot of Jabba's hands wavering just like Coop's in the final seconds...

Yep, I threw up a little in my mouth because I couldn't help but picture Sawyer in a gold bikini while watching last night.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does anyone with a better knowledge or memory of RotJ than me know if that was indeed a shot by shot recreation? I seem to remember a shot of Jabba's hands wavering just like Coop's in the final seconds...


This was all I could find http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iANyqTrVro
5 minutes long, sorry. The death scene takes place about 2:30 into it. Now if we can get the cooper death scene we could compare!

This was all I could find http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iANyqTrVro
5 minutes long, sorry. The death scene takes place about 2:30 into it. Now if we can get the cooper death scene we could compare!

O M G...I am laughing so hard. I just watched that. And of course couldn't help but imagine sawyer in that little outfit. Creeeepy. That was so similar, i didn't remember that scene at all. Josh is a better actor.

That's what I was thinking a good lawyer would argue: by reason of insanity. I don't think he was in a state of mind at that moment where he was fully, cognitively aware of what he was doing. It was literally a blind rage.

Insanity refers to the legal concept (in most jurisdictions) that at the time of the crime, the individual, because of mental disease or defect, did not know that his or her actions were wrong, or could not appreciate the consequences of his or her actions. Sawyer would not have been legally insane. In some states, though, he could have gotten less time for what's known as the "Extreme Emotional Disturbance" defense.

Re: imagery - I like the idea of Sawyer and Locke in the Black Rock - a slave ship - with the man who made them emotional slaves to his cruelty. I mean, think about the vast effect Cooper had on the lives of these two men!

how would murder be a sign of divinity in anything but the most anti-human religion? I posted another thread about this.

Um...the Old Testament. Abraham and Isaac.
100%
Re: imagery - I like the idea of Sawyer and Locke in the Black Rock - a slave ship - with the man who made them emotional slaves to his cruelty. I mean, think about the vast effect Cooper had on the lives of these two men!

Lovely interpretation, I think you are right. Also, the master/slave dialectic is extremely important to philosophy. Nietzsche rejected absolute authority, and especially in the form of Judeo-Christian morality, because it is formed by the master/slave narrative--or, in the con's terms, the hustler/sucker narrative. I bring up Nietzsche because something Locke did--carrying the corpse on his back--is something straight out of a work of Nietzsche.

Insanity refers to the legal concept (in most jurisdictions) that at the time of the crime, the individual, because of mental disease or defect, did not know that his or her actions were wrong, or could not appreciate the consequences of his or her actions. Sawyer would not have been legally insane. In some states, though, he could have gotten less time for what's known as the "Extreme Emotional Disturbance" defense.

Re: imagery - I like the idea of Sawyer and Locke in the Black Rock - a slave ship - with the man who made them emotional slaves to his cruelty. I mean, think about the vast effect Cooper had on the lives of these two men!

OK, so how much time are we looking at? JK;)

Then Locke should be charged with False Imprisonment, no?

In Stephen King's "The Stand," in the last act, Randall Flagg's "devil bride" Nadine goes into the elevator. As the door slowly closes on her, she says in a ghastly, damned voice, "We are dead and this is hell."

Reminded me of Cooper's remark when Locke shut the closet door on him.

In a court of law, Locke would have been more culpable than Sawyer for the death of Cooper. Locke was more than an accessory to murder. Legally, if not physically, Locke committed first degree premeditated murder. As previously posted, Sawyer would have been convicted on a lesser charge because he acted in the heat of passion with no premeditation. Locke was the one who had murder in his heart even if he avoided having blood on his hands.

Also, Coop says "Conman goes by many names Friend..."

Isn't the devil referred to as going by many names?

Also, Coop says "Conman goes by many names Friend..."

Isn't the devil referred to as going by many names?



I think the quote goes something like:

Our name is Legion for we are many.

I edited the above for space.

I disagree that Sawyer had a "black heart."

After "The Hurley Project" (to soften Sawyer) Sawyer did begin to become more cordial to people around him. Plus, he's getting laid - which would make any man more courteous and hospitable.

After emerging from the Black Rock, he vomits. He is sick of what he has done. That sickness, the remorse of taking another life, shows that Sawyer was repentant. Remorse is a sign of a "good heart." You can't fake that. It was sincere and honest.

If Sawyer had a "black heart" he would have felt nothing after killing Cooper.

P. S. In a court of law, Sawyer's actions would fall under "a crime of passion" and he would have been found not guilty.

I said "had" a black heart. He hasn't shown much remorse about the things he has done in his past. But now, yes, obviously he is a changed man.

And he still would've need a helluva lawyer to be found not guilty. He wouldn't of completely gotten off. Even within the particular circumstances, he still murdered a man and Locke wouldn't be innocent either.

I got two things from the episode, not as religious but more metaphoric,

1. Lock was carryiung the burdon of his father on his shoulders even after he's gone.

2. Bare feet symbolizes death, like Beatles Abby Road

I think the quote goes something like:

Our name is Legion for we are many.

Hm, interesting Colleen. So do you think Coop was a manifestation of some collaborative mind thingy?
100%

1. Lock was carryiung the burdon of his father on his shoulders even after he's gone.

I thought that was trippy imagery too, but it sort of clashed with how genuinely relieved Locke seemed after killing Coop was over, with his "Not anymore," and all. It would seem that having done this has freed John in a sense, as Ben suggested it would at Coopsicle stake. John seemed kinda pleased to be bringing his Dad to the Others on his back, at least not as disturbed as you would think he would be. He looked a little like a proud hunter. I guess he is a hunter after all, kinda. =)

I noticed two things tonight ...

I'm not a religious man (even though I went to Catholic school as a kid), so if anyone could explain or expand .... Am I crazy, but weren't they doing a Christ-like thing with Sawyer? All that shoe-less walking through the jungle ... the bleeding feet ?? It reminded me of the stations of the cross. And then he ended up at the ship's brig.

Also ... Cooper tied up and Locke at his throat with the knife. In CATCH-22 Desmond got to discuss the Abraham/Isaac story ... I thought that the Locke/Cooper knife scene was very similar. Locke was tested. Brother Campbell would have said that Locke had a lesson of faith. Desmond would have said the test wasn't fair.

The homage I noticed in tonight's episode ..... When Sawyer strangled Cooper/Sawyer, I thought it was almost shot-for-shot like when Princess Leia strangles Jabba the Hut in RETURN OF THE JEDI.

Anyone else notice imagery or homages to other films tonight?

I have noticed countless Old Testament references (Just about every name), but this ep was the first time I noticed New Testament ones. I was thinking Locke could be represenative of a messiah, until James said his Mom's name was Mary.
Now it seems to me that if Locke is a symbolic savior, then James could be like Judas...performing the forseen (necesary) task of doing some type of trechary to the savior in order for sequences to be carried out as prophecised.

OK, so how much time are we looking at? JK;)

Then Locke should be charged with False Imprisonment, no?

Depends on the jurisdiction. :biggrin:

Sure - let's charge Sawyer with 2nd degree murder, let him go with an EED defense and plead down to manslaughter, charge Locke with false imprisonment, first degree murder, and conspiracy while whittling, and have Hurley be the Judge. Rousseau can testify. Yay for the Lost Mock Trial Club!! ;)

In Stephen King's "The Stand," in the last act, Randall Flagg's "devil bride" Nadine goes into the elevator. As the door slowly closes on her, she says in a ghastly, damned voice, "We are dead and this is hell."

Reminded me of Cooper's remark when Locke shut the closet door on him.

Is that in the book, or the miniseries? I can't find the scene in the book, so I thought I'd ask!

P. S. In a court of law, Sawyer's actions would fall under "a crime of passion" and he would have been found not guilty.


Coongratulations for bringing this board to a new level of misinformation! Crime of passion used to mean that some one would not be convicted of a crime because of a sudden emotional state that meant the murder wasn't premeditated back in the 19th century in some places (France for one) but that's no longer true, Even if it was Sawyer wanted to kill Cooper for a long time and even traveled to the other side of the world to try to.

Depends on the jurisdiction. :biggrin:

Sure - let's charge Sawyer with 2nd degree murder, let him go with an EED defense and plead down to manslaughter, charge Locke with false imprisonment, first degree murder, and conspiracy while whittling, and have Hurley be the Judge. Rousseau can testify. Yay for the Lost Mock Trial Club!! ;)


:rotflmao2:

Okay you've got a deal.

Al, congratulations on sounding like the kind of person who would lambast someone for not knowing the Model Penal Code as if it were "misinformation" with any consequence whatsoever.

a) No one is going to go strangle old men with a chain because they read they could be found not guilty on The Fuselage.

b) Craphole Island is about as likely to be in a jurisdiction that follows an old version of the Napoleonic Code as any other damnfool theory one reads on here.


(Edit: I was just kidding, but now I have a link to support the "Crime of Passion jurisdiction" theory http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=78069)

I thought it was only me seeing the religious imagery. I thought Locke being made to sacrifice his father was a reverse parallel of Abraham being brought up to sacrifice his son Isaac.

I thought it was only me seeing the religious imagery. I thought Locke being made to sacrifice his father was a reverse parallel of Abraham being brought up to sacrifice his son Isaac.

Except that God didn't allow Isaac to be sacrificed. Instead, he provided a lamb in place of Isaac, to be used as a sacrifice.

I thought it was only me seeing the religious imagery. I thought Locke being made to sacrifice his father was a reverse parallel of Abraham being brought up to sacrifice his son Isaac.

Yes, especially with Locke having so many faith issues.

Exactly LIB...directly opposite imagery...Instead of Locke sacrificing his dad he has Sawyer do it instead...the "lamb" sacrificing the father instead of the father sacrificing the lamb

Hm, I just didn't see any religious imagery in this episode. Also, I can't see how Sawyer can be likened to Christ, even though his mother's name happened to be Mary. I just don't see it...

maybe they were very loose comparisons (being barefooted, the Mary thing, Etc I don't know the Bible well enough to continue with references so maybe I shouldn't be in this thread) that will be make more sense in future episodes.

James is a biblical name, though. There is a book of James in the New Testament. Still, I think this is just coincidence.

I was struck by the scene when Locke lifted up Cooper's body and began his journey to the others - it reminded me of Jesus carrying his crucifixion cross.

Me too... in fact I told my husband during that scene that it reminded me of Christ carrying His cross. There is a reference in the Bible where it says to followers of Christ...
"Pick up your cross and follow Me..."

but Jesus is saying that to his diciples, anyways.... There are loads of religious hints/ motifs, and agree there has to be some connection with religion

The whole barefoot thing just reminded me of "Die Hard" ;)

Except that God didn't allow Isaac to be sacrificed. Instead, he provided a lamb in place of Isaac, to be used as a sacrifice.

I don't think the connotation "didn't allow" is correct--I thought that God said something to the effect of "Oh, okay, you've proven you will obey me, so you can now sacrifice the lamb instead of your son."

yeah that sounds better, im sure he meant what you said, and issacs fathers faith is what saved issac

James is the real Messiah.
Locke is actually the one to spread the word of his coming.

At least that's how I read it.
After all, wasn't it James who actually "acted out and freed himself from his emotional burden?" Locke merely used James to do it, but deep down remains emotionally tied to his father.

I watched Star Wars again with the LOST vid playing nearby and sadly, nope they aren't comparisons enough to make a homage. The shots don't match. There were some shots that could have been easily identified as homage shots (like the way Leia pulls on the chain, or the way Jabba dies with his tongue rolled out) but they weren't done in the James version.

So sadly, thought the manner of death was similar, no homage.

o well cant win them all i guess, but i think we could identify james as a savior figure much like luke but I dont think that they refrence star wars too often on lost unfortunately

I don't think the connotation "didn't allow" is correct--I thought that God said something to the effect of "Oh, okay, you've proven you will obey me, so you can now sacrifice the lamb instead of your son."

I agree with you, but ultimately, Isaac wasn't sacrificed. So in a way, God didn't allow Isaac to be sacrificed. :)

right but in abrahams mind he was going to have to sacrifice his son. but you 100% correct

Isaac plays a huge role though, because he bore Jacob and Esau. Jacob's name was later changed to Israel. It was through Isaac, who was spared, that God blessed Abraham and his descendants. This is the way I look at it.

I agree with you, but ultimately, Isaac wasn't sacrificed. So in a way, God didn't allow Isaac to be sacrificed. :)

Okay, you win, I surrender! :biggrin:

Okay, you win, I surrender! :biggrin:

Aw, but you were right, and I agreed with you!:)

i dont know how many characters there are but maybe they represent the 12 tribes of isreal?... complete non sensical guess

When Ben says "Wake up John" it might be a homeage to the Matrix "Wake up neo ?

haha maybe all the lostees too the blue pill, :biggrin: your probibly right tho

I think the quote goes something like:

Our name is Legion for we are many.

Satan is often referred to as 'the father of lies" - he goes by many names.

I have noticed countless Old Testament references (Just about every name), but this ep was the first time I noticed New Testament ones. I was thinking Locke could be represenative of a messiah, until James said his Mom's name was Mary.
Now it seems to me that if Locke is a symbolic savior, then James could be like Judas...performing the forseen (necesary) task of doing some type of trechary to the savior in order for sequences to be carried out as prophecised.

I was looking at Locke as almost being Judas... Hi carrying his Dad was like Jesus carrying the cross. Or the phrase, "we all have a cross to bear". John's cross had been his father.

James is a biblical name, though. There is a book of James in the New Testament. Still, I think this is just coincidence.

James was also the name of the one of the Brothers of Jesus. One of the Disciples was named James. He was also the the brother of John and the two were known as "the Sons of Thunder". HHHmmm... James and John...

And actually if you add in what an earlier poster recalled Cooper saying, "I guess that would make me God", you might have a representation of the Trinity - Cooper - Sawyer and Sawyer's mother Mary.

Yep, I threw up a little in my mouth because I couldn't help but picture Sawyer in a gold bikini while watching last night.

OOOOooo... KINKY!! :biggrin: ***Adds to long list of Sawyer fantasies...***

to follow up i found out benjamin is a tribe of israel, one of the children of abraham

to follow up i found out benjamin is a tribe of israel, one of the children of abraham

Benjamin is the youngest son of Jacob.

.
Side note: Since Ben told Locke that he had to so something to become one of them, what do you guys think Cindy had to do? She has obviously been "welcomed" into the clan.

Cindy is a woman(can get pregnant) and the kids seem to need her that is why she was taken not because she is special but to keep the kids calm and from running away, while typing this I had a WTF moment I may have just figured out why they took cindy. don't be an a** and tell me it was already posted somewhere else let me have my moment.

Just as a side note the show is not religous, TPTB have said the show's conclusion will be REALISTIC, not fantasy

Also, Coop says "Conman goes by many names Friend..."

Isn't the devil referred to as going by many names?

They're at the gates of hell*, and smokey is* the devil*, and smokey was in fact* cooper.

*Highly debatable...:biggrin:

I guess I can see the Christ imagry a bit... Sawyer bearing the weight of the demons in Locke's past; other than that- other than that I don't see too much with the Jesus parallels. I feel like with such an prolific figure, the imagry would be very obvious.

I noticed two things tonight ...

I'm not a religious man (even though I went to Catholic school as a kid), so if anyone could explain or expand .... Am I crazy, but weren't they doing a Christ-like thing with Sawyer? All that shoe-less walking through the jungle ... the bleeding feet ?? It reminded me of the stations of the cross. And then he ended up at the ship's brig.

Also ... Cooper tied up and Locke at his throat with the knife. In CATCH-22 Desmond got to discuss the Abraham/Isaac story ... I thought that the Locke/Cooper knife scene was very similar. Locke was tested. Brother Campbell would have said that Locke had a lesson of faith. Desmond would have said the test wasn't fair.

The homage I noticed in tonight's episode ..... When Sawyer strangled Cooper/Sawyer, I thought it was almost shot-for-shot like when Princess Leia strangles Jabba the Hut in RETURN OF THE JEDI.

Anyone else notice imagery or homages to other films tonight?

i see no relevance to any of the things you made up, but it was a thread to make me laugh. I bet you could come up a link to smurfs, tom cruise or price of truck tires nowadays also. Thanks.

I have noticed countless Old Testament references (Just about every name), but this ep was the first time I noticed New Testament ones. I was thinking Locke could be represenative of a messiah, until James said his Mom's name was Mary.
Now it seems to me that if Locke is a symbolic savior, then James could be like Judas...performing the forseen (necesary) task of doing some type of trechary to the savior in order for sequences to be carried out as prophecised.

Iamongthemanifest - I agree that the religous imagery was significant in this ep, but also referring back to Locke's mum (Emily - which interestingly is not a biblical name unless someone knows otherwise), she said Locke had been conceived as a virgin birth? This backs up the theory of Locke being a symbolic saviour. Or could it just be that Emily didn't want Locke to track down his father because he was such as B******D? Remember Emily ended up in the same mental hospital with Libby and Hurley, so maybe she was just deluded. I dunno but there are a huge number of references to Christianity in this ep, it's just difficult working out what they all mean.

i see no relevance to any of the things you made up, but it was a thread to make me laugh. I bet you could come up a link to smurfs, tom cruise or price of truck tires nowadays also. Thanks.

You could've stopped at the first comma, and it would've been a decent contribution to the discussion. Posts like this probably keep lurkers lurking instead of offering their thoughts. There's no need to be nasty or unkind about someone else's thoughts.

i agree but i dont know the rules about not being positive but i think thats a boarderline report statement