The way Naomi talked about the wreckage being found in a 4 mile deep ocean trench and that they had to use robotic cameras to view the wreckage, points even more to a cover up by DHARMA or someone. They would not be able to salvage the plane and do DNA testing that deep. They only evidence they have is off the video from the robotic submersibles. I figured a cover up was in play last week, but this new info points to it even more.

The way Naomi talked about the wreckage being found in a 4 mile deep ocean trench and that they had to use robotic cameras to view the wreckage, points even more to a cover up by DHARMA or someone. They would not be able to salvage the plane and do DNA testing that deep. They only evidence they have is off the video from the robotic submersibles. I figured a cover up was in play last week, but this new info points to it even more.

Yep if it was 4 miles down, they're not gonna get DNA. They can count bodies, generally locate the rough leftover pieces of the plane, but they're not gonna get much more evidene than that.

Citations?

i dont see if they wanted to take dna, why they couldnt ?
cant they take dna from old bones hundreds of yrs old

What happened with the original wreckage, the one from the island? Was it washed away? I don't remember.
100%
Yes, they could take DNA. It can be taken from hair, skin, almost anything.

i dont see if they wanted to take dna, why they couldnt ?
cant they take dna from old bones hundreds of yrs old

It's an unmaned probe at 4 miles. It would take a really long time to systematically collect samples form 324 bodies. Much longer than 90 days. I wonder when they supposedly found the wreckage.

ya, i know, but sure look at ground zero, 5 yrs later they are still collecting dna, just because its hard, doesn't make it impossible :biggrin:

this story convinced me that the crash site located by the rest of the world was staged by dharma/the others. it would be almost impossible to stage a crash site that was accesible. the DNA would prove it was a fake. the only way to stage a crash site, and therefore keep anyone from looking for the losties, is to make is an inaccesible crash site. one 4 miles beneath the ocean is pretty inaccesible. all you have to produce is some sonar imaging and a grainy video of decompsing bodies swaying in dark water, and you'd have the world convinced. pretty easy for any mediocre special effects expert. anyone thinking mikhail?

I'm pretty sure at this point,
The Hanso people do not want 815 found So they Staged the coverup

There is not a chance in the world anyone would take DNA from a crash 4 miles deep

Im mean come on guys..what do you think... someone said, "Hey guys maybe those arent the real bodies..maybe they are decoys?"

If you believe her story...and I dont believe that Sayid does. I'm with him on this one....

OK. Agreed this is definitely proof the wreckage they 'found' was fake.
Ben Saw the plane crash. The others saw the Plane crash.
The plane was flying from Sydney to Los Angeles- an easterly direction yet the 'wreckage' ended up near Bali. Thousands of Kms north, north west of Sydney.
We are supposed to believe that the plane was flying towards Bali the whole time and no-one noticed? Ignoring the fact that a flight from Sydney to LA is over ocean for almost the entire flight, whereas a flight from Sydney to Bali would have to cross a huge chunk of Australia, and NO-ONE NOTICED?? Now, the plane was being tracked until the time it disappeared from radio, and presumably flew for 2 more hours, 'lost' until it crashed. In this 2 hours it has turned around and made a direct course for Bali, and NO-ONE noticed?? and even if it DID do this it would have to pass between the top of Queensland in Australia and Papua New Guinea to get anywhere near Bali. without anyone seeing signs of land? Please.

AND THEN... as far as the world knew the plane was lost, over the pacific, somewhere along the route it was taking, yet, not more than 90 days later, presumably in real time, ignoring potential time discrepancies, someone just happens to stumble across the wreckage in a trench four miles deep in another ocean!? Why would anyone even be looking there?? It would be like searching for the Titanic in Antarctica! how could anyone in the real world even fathom that this could be the case? How could it possibly be explained to the public??

This more than anything else proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that either Naomi is lying, or Dharma is covering up something big, and doing a good job of it to get the public to swallow the glaring discrepancies in this cover story. So it was found in a 4 mile deep trench, and only by unmanned submersibles, yet they were able, apparently, to account for all the bodies in the plane??

*takes deep breathes*

[quote=John Burger;1526692]There is not a chance in the world anyone would take DNA from a crash 4 miles deep quote]


I agree, they'd probably have no need to as finding the plane it itself would be enough. I also thought that water could destroy DNA if left long enough?! Anyway, I digress. I don't believe a word of this, I smell a conspiracy!

This may tie into the coverup theory.

As I said before the DNA could of been collected from the hairbrushes that were missing from the flight wreckage and then presented to the world as proof.

All it needs is a modicum of evidence to convince the public they are all dead etc.

If the Hanso foundation was conducting the investigation (which it said on the Oceanic Airlines site) then surely they could of covered things up quite easily?

The issue with collecting DNA is more the collection process. You would need specialist equipment built to withstand the intense pressures. DNA collection is fiddly at the best of times, let alone when trying to operate a ROV. There is also the question of whose jurisdication the plane falls under (was it in international territorial waters) and whether it is designated as a grave or crime scene.

I doubt many people would even ask for DNA. In this situation, there is no doubt as to who the people on the plane were, since they would have checked in for their flight and everything. The hairbrushes actually could have been all the proof they needed, or some faked pictures of the bodies.

Bond_81 has a good point. How did someone just stumble upon the wreckage?

I'll play devil's advocate for an alternative. Reasons it's not a cover-up:

1. Pretty massive operation. You need 300+ dead bodies, you need a plane, you need to fabricate all the markings, drag it out into the ocean, get it down to the bottom in a conveniently deep trench, then get the rescuers to look right there, all without the people and equipment and big ship rigs involved ever being noticed...

2. OR, somehow be the company that gets hired to DO the rescue op, and then produce a fake result for the world, Australian and American authorities (FAA etc), and get them to sign off and say "looks right to me!" Also pretty tough to pull off and relies on us assuming that they could manage to get hired to do it or control the company that does...

3. Despite the above, It's kind of the most obvious answer. Lost avoids those.

4. I hate to wax all sci-fi, but I really think the show has been dropping tons of hints about wormholes and space-time screwups etc, not to mention the whole "bad twin" thing...

I'm not saying I'm convinced, but I think there's an equally strong case to make for the possibility that there are two space-time locations, one where the plane crashed right where it would have, and one where it got sucked into another spot in space-time, on the island, and about 1 out of 5 passengers survived. This is a way to come up with a big over-arching explanation for the show (metacode for any comp lit geeks:biggrin: ) that kills a bunch of birds with one stone, i.e. why they haven't been found, why no one can see the island, what the electro-magnetic anomoly did, why the island is special, why they inexplicably survived a devastating crash, etc.

A lot of the outstanding mysteries can be captured under that umbrella...

Flame away!

And I'm still going with the boring not at all popular explanation that there is no plane at the bottom of a 40 foot trench staged or otherwise.

Any video feeds the public saw on the news was what was staged. They were made up...created by digital imagining pros. Widmore whoever would have the money and the resources to pull it off.

Why go to all the time, money and expense to fake a plane crash when you don't have to?

No flame here sir; your thoughts are logical and clearly presented.

But the key element that we need to take into account is: the information provided needs to account for only 90 days since the crash.

You said:

“1. Pretty massive operation. You need 300+ dead bodies, you need a plane, you need to fabricate all the markings, drag it out into the ocean, get it down to the bottom in a conveniently deep trench, then get the rescuers to look right there, all without the people and equipment and big ship rigs involved ever being noticed...”

If you prepared the ‘wreck’ site ahead of time the mission wouldn’t be as difficult. Buy a plane from a plane graveyard, ABC did it for the show.

Get 300 bodies I can only speculate that getting bodies shouldn’t be too difficult for an organization with money, like Hanso. Go to some third world country or just snatch them up from morgues or even steal people form the streets. I AM NOT CONDONING this kind of behavior. But it seems like in a world of 6+ billion people getting 300 bodies might not be as tough as someone might think. May not need all 300 and not even whole

Take the whole setup out on one of those container ships, roll it off SPLASH…

You then said:
“2. OR, somehow be the company that gets hired to DO the rescue op, and then produce a fake result for the world, Australian and American authorities (FAA etc), and get them to sign off and say "looks right to me!" Also pretty tough to pull off and relies on us assuming that they could manage to get hired to do it or control the company that does...”

Now you have one of your REASEARCH vessels, come across it; say 10-15 days later. Do some ROV dives and show the footage to the world. Other org’s FAA like may come out and say lets see. And you let them use your stuff and they go man what a mess… and you are about 30-40 days after crash.

So now if an org does want to go get evidence more time to consider and by the time the stuff is processed it may be 4-6 months later.

SO to Naomi and the WORLD the plane has been found. And ‘everyone’ is dead.

Another alternative is that the information was completely fabricated by the RESEARCH vessel. The footage was CGI or of a model… the bodies were fake. And by the time the ORGs find out… well who knows how long that could take.(elfdream got this concept up before i did so props to the man/woman.)

The timeloop hole thing is good I like it from a SCIFI POV.

But i ramble

"Party on, contest winners, Party On!"

I would think everyone on record as boarding a flight that crashed into the ocean and found 4 miles down would be presumed dead. There would be a search that lasts a few days to search for possible, but unlikely, survivors. No one would be pressing to have DNA to prove all bodies are accounted for. No one would question that they all died.

DNA is only used for identification purposes and then only when needed. If you have a plane full of people that crashes so horribly that its obvious everyone who was on it was killed you don't need to identify the remains.

i dont see if they wanted to take dna, why they couldnt ?
cant they take dna from old bones hundreds of yrs old


The question is not why they couldnt but why should they?

Why would the authorities have any reason to think that all passengers have been switched?

i dont see if they wanted to take dna, why they couldnt ?
cant they take dna from old bones hundreds of yrs old

If they try to raise the plane out of the ocean -4 miles!- they are going have problems.
How could the plane be whole after crashing, at great speed, into the ocean?
If it is whole, will it stay that way if they try to raise it out to the ocean?
Aren't the "authorities" just as likely to leave the plane where it is than to go through
the trouble of trying to raise the plane?
They have the passenger list and if it is true that their robot could really help them
to count the passnegers on that plane -why would they bother with DNA testing?
If the count is correct and that number matches the passenger list -the 'authorities' are done with it.

And I'm still going with the boring not at all popular explanation that there is no plane at the bottom of a 40 foot trench staged or otherwise.

Any video feeds the public saw on the news was what was staged. They were made up...created by digital imagining pros. Widmore whoever would have the money and the resources to pull it off.

Why go to all the time, money and expense to fake a plane crash when you don't have to?

This is exactly what I think. There was no "staged" plane crash. There was just madeup videofeeds, pictures, etc. The media would have no way (and really no reason) to verify the reports they were given that the wreckage was found, and that there were no survivors.

As far as DNA testing goes, why would there even be a need for that? If we're going on the idea that there was some elaborate fake plane wreckage and bodies, I can't imagine why an investigation team would go through the trouble to collect DNA from each of the bodies. They have a flight manifest, they know exactly who was on that plane. The expense alone of DNA testing would make it prohibitive. Not to mention that collecting samples for DNA would be near impossible at those depths. Only unmanned submersibles would be able to access the bodies and they're not exactly "nimble fingers" that could pick off strands of hair. If DNA testing was being conducted on each body, that process would take years.

I'm with elfdream, there is no wreckage...

I doubt many people would even ask for DNA. In this situation, there is no doubt as to who the people on the plane were, since they would have checked in for their flight and everything. The hairbrushes actually could have been all the proof they needed, or some faked pictures of the bodies.

Bond_81 has a good point. How did someone just stumble upon the wreckage?


I agree. It is a cover up for sure. Why watch multiple channels of the original news feeds from around the world? I mean- they saw it crash- why was it necessary to watch the world's reaction so closely??????

This is exactly what I think. There was no "staged" plane crash. There was just madeup videofeeds, pictures, etc. The media would have no way (and really no reason) to verify the reports they were given that the wreckage was found, and that there were no survivors.

As far as DNA testing goes, why would there even be a need for that? If we're going on the idea that there was some elaborate fake plane wreckage and bodies, I can't imagine why an investigation team would go through the trouble to collect DNA from each of the bodies. They have a flight manifest, they know exactly who was on that plane. The expense alone of DNA testing would make it prohibitive. Not to mention that collecting samples for DNA would be near impossible at those depths. Only unmanned submersibles would be able to access the bodies and they're not exactly "nimble fingers" that could pick off strands of hair. If DNA testing was being conducted on each body, that process would take years.

I'm with elfdream, there is no wreckage...

Thank you! I was getting lonely out here!

Why would they collect DNA? If they found Flight 815, and saw bodies in it, and knew the passenger minifest, I don't think anybody would immediately start thinking it was a trick. I still think it was staged, I really don't want there to be two planes.

The only reason I like the concept of staged plane crash is because it is fun.

The image of a couple of guys on a ship pushing some wreckage off and then turning around and whistleing hands in their pockets all non-chalant like.

Deck hand #1: "Boy that water sure is cold."
Deck hand #2: "and deep too..."
Deck hand #3: "So how about them Bears?"

Somebody else directing the new mess cook who just got on the boat before it left port and isn't in on it...(Ala Officed Barbrady) 'No No Nothing to see here, back to work."

Then some guy in the shadows grabbing his UbberCool Satilite phone and calling WNN the World News Network.

"I think we just found 815."


Sound effect : "Dunnnnnnnn"

LOST

And I'm still going with the boring not at all popular explanation that there is no plane at the bottom of a 40 foot trench staged or otherwise.

Any video feeds the public saw on the news was what was staged. They were made up...created by digital imagining pros. Widmore whoever would have the money and the resources to pull it off.

Why go to all the time, money and expense to fake a plane crash when you don't have to?

Totally agree with Elf..there is no plane wreck....If we can make it look like a man walked on the moon...Dharma no way no how waanted anyone to "look" for the plane on their island...

However, if tptb turn this into a pergatory debate I will scream...lol...

Ok so that is what they will turn it into...lol

Why would they collect DNA? If they found Flight 815, and saw bodies in it, and knew the passenger minifest, I don't think anybody would immediately start thinking it was a trick. I still think it was staged, I really don't want there to be two planes.

I dont think they would take dna from anyone...Think Pearl Harbor..those men are still in the water....the plane is their burial ground....No need for DNA testing..they had the passanger list

Was about to write what elfdream just said, almost word-for-word, then noticed their was a second page to the thread. :)

Hanso would certainly be able to set up a bottleneck for information about the wreckage, and could even have some puppet companies collaborate to verify that wreckage was indeed of 815 and that everyone was aboard/dead. There would be no reason to provide evidence that the passengers were indeed the people on the manifest, but authorities would definitely be interested in how the plane ended up so far off course (and at the bottom of a 4 mile deep trench). Even if salvage were possible, Hanso would likely insinuate itself into that operation as well, ensuring that no one could independently verify whether or not the plane was actually down there.

The big problem, as Bond 81 says, is the location. Hanso could "recover" the black box, but there remains the question of what to put on it. The narrative doesn't have to be anything like what the survivors experienced, so we don't have to worry about corroborating when they lost contact, when they turned around, how long they flew West, etc. Hanso could have even conceivably faked transmissions from 815 on the day of the crash, which might help explain how anyone would know to look off the coast of Bali and not in the middle of the Pacific.

But then we have to put ourselves in the shoes of the people they are sending these faked transmissions to. What would be a believable explanation of why the pilot would fly to the middle of Indonesia?

Thank you! I was getting lonely out here!

Don't feel lonely, Elfdream. I don't believe anyone staged an actual plane crash, either. :kiss: Way too many resources and people to involve, plus keep quiet. Widmore is powerful and rich, but you can bet someone would spill the truth to the Inquirer. :biggrin:

ya, i know, but sure look at ground zero, 5 yrs later they are still collecting dna, just because its hard, doesn't make it impossible :biggrin:
Ground zero isn't under 4 miles of ocean. Besides, if:
1. flight 815 disappeared off radar
2. a plane looking exactly like 815 was found
3. no other aircraft of that type was missing in that area
4. it contained a bunch of bodies that looked like the Losties
5. a group of "officials" declared it to be the remains of flight 815

then nobody is going to check DNA. Why would they?

Case closed.

------Edited addition:
Although, the Bali thing does concern me. It would mean 815 was at least 3000 miles off course, and on a path 90 degrees off the correct heading.

[QUOTE=MinnieVanMommie;1527496]Totally agree with Elf..there is no plane wreck....If we can make it look like a man walked on the moon...Dharma no way no how waanted anyone to "look" for the plane on their island...


I agree Minnie. And great comparison to the moon. But I am for the KISS theory..... Naomi is lying and there was no actual wreckage. To much stuff involved with getting another plane, people, etc. To involved.

I don't know if Naomi is lying. She might really believe the reports but the possibility that she is should remain open.


Was about to write what elfdream just said, almost word-for-word, then noticed their was a second page to the thread.

Great minds and all that. :D

I don't know if Naomi is lying. She might really believe the reports but the possibility that she is should remain open

That's could be too. That Naomi believed just as everyone else.

There is not a chance in the world anyone would take DNA from a crash 4 miles deep

Im mean come on guys..what do you think... someone said, "Hey guys maybe those arent the real bodies..maybe they are decoys?"


:rotflmao2:

Seriously. All this DNA talk is not relevant, I think. There definitely seems to be a cover-up taking place and the fact that both Naomi (if she is to be believed about his and I, for one, believe her) and Cooper believe it shows how successful it was. Obviously, no one is asking questions about the missing Losties back on the mainlands.

And I'm still going with the boring not at all popular explanation that there is no plane at the bottom of a 40 foot trench staged or otherwise.

Any video feeds the public saw on the news was what was staged. They were made up...created by digital imagining pros. Widmore whoever would have the money and the resources to pull it off.

Why go to all the time, money and expense to fake a plane crash when you don't have to?
I think that is an awesome theory. That or Naomi lying seems the most reasonable.

The only reason I like the concept of staged plane crash is because it is fun.

The image of a couple of guys on a ship pushing some wreckage off and then turning around and whistleing hands in their pockets all non-chalant like.

Deck hand #1: "Boy that water sure is cold."
Deck hand #2: "and deep too..."
Deck hand #3: "So how about them Bears?"

Somebody else directing the new mess cook who just got on the boat before it left port and isn't in on it...(Ala Officed Barbrady) 'No No Nothing to see here, back to work."

Then some guy in the shadows grabbing his UbberCool Satilite phone and calling WNN the World News Network.

"I think we just found 815."


Sound effect : "Dunnnnnnnn"

LOST
:24: Good times.



Oh, and Happy Birthday there Minnie! :hb2:

okay this is getting to be really too bizarre. If they really needed the 40 or so people to participate in island experiments, such as fertility and having Jack fix Ben's back why such a huge huge huge stupid and risky way of doing it. They got Locke's dad there by simply smacking into his rear end on I-10. It just seems that really smart people with lots of money would never in a million years go thru:

A: setting up a group of people for a risky plane wreck on an island and HOPE that the ones you really want survive the stupendous crash from thousand of feet above the surface.

B: covering up such a crash with fake planes and bodies and videos or whatever while knowing in full advance that the plane you plan to crash with the real people you need will be just fine.

Come on folks these are really brilliant and incredibly wealthy people (which is the reason most used for pulling off such an elaborate stunt). It is this reason that they (the rich and brilliant people) would never even consider this method of getting these people to the island. They could do it much easier other ways. Like Locke's dad.

There's something deeper than this going on.

What a fun discussion!

I once went on a research cruise to take samples in the deep sea with an ROV. I don't think there is any problem getting a DNA sample from a body at depth. You wouldn't need to take a strand of hair (you have your DNA in your whole body of course). You would probably just bring up the whole body, or a whole appendage, and then take any sample you want. It is totally possible with current technology--getting the body and amplifying the DNA from a sample that large, even from the bottom of the ocean, would not be a problem at all.

As has been mentioned many times, though, is why would you? If it is a real crash, why would anyone demand this? They are more likely to demand their loved one's body for proper burial.

If it is a setup, you could easily fake the DNA results much more cheaply (run your reference sample twice).

The two questions that are stuck in my craw have been mentioned:
--How on earth would they find a plane that far off course so quickly?
--They would DEFINITELY want the black box of a flight that went so badly, so what is on it? I guess if the crash is faked, they could have just damaged it.

There is the third option of the time worm hole.

My new silly crackpot theory of the week is that they get rescued, and then 10 years later all of them are on a reunion flight to Bali, which then crashes. That is the plane that was found. :biggrin:

What about the reletives of the people on the plane? Wouldn't they want the remains of their loved ones?

There are three options.

1. Flight wreck was staged for the benefit of the outside world.
2. Flight wreck is real, Losties are having some major issues with time.
3. Naomi is lying.

I don't have a stake in which it is, but I'd like to point out that DNA wouldn't be an issue to prove that the plane was a fake - it would be sought to identify the bodies in order to return them to the families for burial. The reason they're still collecting DNA from recovered body parts from Ground Zero isn't to identify who actually died - it's to give those parts back to the families so they have something to bury or cremate.

If there were a plane wreck of that magnitude, even 4 miles deep, the families of the dead would pressure authorities to raise the plane to get their loved ones' remains back. If it can't be done, it can't be done - I'm not an expert in wreckage at that depth - but I do know that they wouldn't just leave it there because it's too much trouble to bring it up.

DNA can be collected from any cell of the body - so bone marrow would work just fine, even if skin and muscle and blood (not hair, there's no DNA in hair) were destroyed by the ocean in the span of a few months. Barring, instead of, or in addition to that, they'd use dental records.

this story convinced me that the crash site located by the rest of the world was staged by dharma/the others. it would be almost impossible to stage a crash site that was accesible. the DNA would prove it was a fake. the only way to stage a crash site, and therefore keep anyone from looking for the losties, is to make is an inaccesible crash site. one 4 miles beneath the ocean is pretty inaccesible. all you have to produce is some sonar imaging and a grainy video of decompsing bodies swaying in dark water, and you'd have the world convinced.

You will never have the world convinced by this.

A plane that was supposed to fly east from Sydney to L.A. somehow wound up off the coast of Bali, which is a thousand miles northwest of Sydney, with no explanation. The Aussie and Indonesian air traffic controllers will admit they had never picked up Flight 815 heading in their direction via its transponder. Coming almost 3 years to the month after the 9-11 terrorist attack, the whole world will speculate that Flight 815 had been hijacked, possibly by terrorists. (Remember that the 9-11 hijackers turned off the planes' transponders so they couldn't be tracked.) The news media will soon discover that an Iraqi citizen who used to be a torturer for Saddam's Republican Guard was on board and then the whole world will go wild screaming that the plane was hijacked in revenge for the Iraq War.

And that is going to invite investigators from half a dozen governments (representing all the nationalities of the passengers) plus all the private scientists and investigators with sufficient funds to go down there and try to find out what happened. It will be just like the H.M.S. Titanic, which scientists have been probing for a century.

If the Super-Powerful Whiz-Bang Conspiracy wanted to make the crash seem like a natural event, they would have planted the 2nd faked plane somewhere on the original flight path from Sydney to L.A.

The bodies are the least important aspect of investigating the Bali wreckage. What submersibles can get a good look at are the serial numbers on the various pieces of wreckage. All those serial numbers on every piece of the plane would have to be faked. And of course, since Naomi said they found the "whole plane," the investigators won't stop looking for the flight recorder and voice recorder till they find them. So those would have to be faked too--all sufficient to fool experienced investigators.

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

I just think she is lying about the Bali plane crash.

My 2-cents. I think the plane found was planted, from their very own wreckage. Remember, the pieces washed off the shore in the first season. A few days after the crash. The Others had a submarine, they could have very easily taken those pieces to the site the plane was "found" and planted it there. Also, the Losties burned their dead in their part of the fuselage, consistent with the plane exploding in mid air. The Tailies left their dead in the tail section, consistent with the plane breaking apart in mid-air. I think the wreckage found was the original 815. The FCC numbers were still on the outside of the plane, giving proof to the video they saw from 4 miles down. They saw some charred, some drowned/injured bodies, giving more credence to "the plane exploded and fell apart into the ocean right here" theory. They might try to bring the sections and people up, they might not. But even if they do, they will know they will never have 100% recovery of the passengers, so if some are missing, well there's a lot that can happen to a body between 30,000 ft up to 4 miles down.

But she said the "entire" plane was found, not pieces.

I just think she is lying about the Bali plane crash.

If Naomi was lying, so was Cooper. He was (apparently) convinced that Locke was killed in the crash, which addded to the belief he was in Hell when he saw him.

Assuming he's not lying or being equally duped as us, it's also interesting to note that Cooper knew that Locke was on 815. It's not as if the authorities would inform him of his son's death, as they also think he is dead. And Cooper would have no reason to think that Locke was in Australia, unless he had been keeping tabs on him. It's possible that he just happened to read Locke's obituary (just as Locke happened to read his)...but in any case, interesting.

It was the entire plane, just in pieces. There is no way a plane can go from 30,000 ft to 4 miles down without breaking apart. Anything like that found in the ocean is in parts, even when the parts add up to the whole.

The fake 815 was staged either for real in the trench or with video made to look real. I think totally faked myself. The bodies would not be brought up-if it was really staged, the cost not reasonable to do.

Who did it is a big question to me.

Hanso, Mittelos(who I think are not connected) or Widmore if he is not Hanso.

.

How does all of this found wreckage + all aboard dead jive with Mike and Walt "escaping" the island? If they tried to re-enter society at all it throws this all to hell. Either the Bali info is pure BS (my opinion) or Mike and Walt never made it away!

Mike and Walt would have to be living as hermits or under assumed ID's.

You will never have the world convinced by this.

A plane that was supposed to fly east from Sydney to L.A. somehow wound up off the coast of Bali, which is a thousand miles northwest of Sydney, with no explanation. The Aussie and Indonesian air traffic controllers will admit they had never picked up Flight 815 heading in their direction via its transponder.

I definitely agree on the Bali thing. No one really seems to think that location is a big issue. But if a plane were flying from NYC to London and the wreckage was found of the coast of Oregon, people would be a bit curious. Dontcha think? THAT would be what everyone remembered. The plane that crashed in the wrong place. It would surely make an investigation unavoidable. They would lift that thing or go through a lot to find out how/what happened. They wouldn't just send cameras to confirm it's 815 and that there are remains down there.

I'm not buying it either. Sydney is 2875 miles from Bali!!

What about the reletives of the people on the plane? Wouldn't they want the remains of their loved ones?


They might 'want' them but they would have to face the same reality as the people who have had loved ones who happen to die on Mt. Everest. They are staying there.

Great Circle Mapper (http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=syd-lax&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=&PATH-UNITS=mi&SPEED-GROUND=&SPEED-UNITS=kts&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STYLE=) something fun to play with.

http://www.qantas.com.au/content/dyn/routemaps/int/index

My new silly crackpot theory of the week is that they get rescued, and then 10 years later all of them are on a reunion flight to Bali, which then crashes. That is the plane that was found. :biggrin:

Sweet! You get my vote.

How much is the water pressure at 4 miles? Would the bodies still be in even vaguely recognizable shapes after that kind of time?

ok, how do we know that Hanso or Dharma any of them people/companys arnt the resuce team who found the plane and all survivours, think about it. Then can go back and say yep its the plane, everyones dead, we did dna, which they dont have to because they have everyones file, and know everything. So they can make footage of the plane underwater and fake it all. Rescue team included.

How much is the water pressure at 4 miles? Would the bodies still be in even vaguely recognizable shapes after that kind of time?

Ocean pressure (http://www.onr.navy.mil/focus/ocean/water/pressure1.htm)

Still 4 miles is much deeper than 7,380 feet.
100%
I thought I would look up plane crahses in Bali. Since we received information about Steve Fossett's balloon from Ben when he was giving out information, I thought maybe the information might have come from a real report.

http://www.baliblog.com/travel-tips/no-sign-of-missing-adam-air-plane-in-indonesia.html

“Indonesia is a place full of miscommunication, contradictory information and confusion during an accident like this,” Nicholas Ionides, managing editor for Flight International Magazine in Asia, told AFP."

http://www.cbs8.com/story.php?id=75797

It is not clear why there have been no transmissions from the plane's emergency locator.

Smith speculated that it may not have been operational or _ in the event of a crash at sea _ that it could have sank into an underwater trench from which its signals could not be picked up.

Air navigation can be difficult in Indonesia, which spans 6 percent of the equator, because there are gaps in the communications systems. Last year, an Adam Air Boeing 737 flew off course on a stretch of the same route and was lost for several hours before it made an emergency landing at the small Tambalaka airstrip, hundreds of miles off course.

I'll play devil's advocate for an alternative. Reasons it's not a cover-up:

1. Pretty massive operation. You need 300+ dead bodies, you need a plane, you need to fabricate all the markings, drag it out into the ocean, get it down to the bottom in a conveniently deep trench, then get the rescuers to look right there, all without the people and equipment and big ship rigs involved ever being noticed...

2. OR, somehow be the company that gets hired to DO the rescue op, and then produce a fake result for the world, Australian and American authorities (FAA etc), and get them to sign off and say "looks right to me!" Also pretty tough to pull off and relies on us assuming that they could manage to get hired to do it or control the company that does...

3. Despite the above, It's kind of the most obvious answer. Lost avoids those.

4. I hate to wax all sci-fi, but I really think the show has been dropping tons of hints about wormholes and space-time screwups etc, not to mention the whole "bad twin" thing...

I'm not saying I'm convinced, but I think there's an equally strong case to make for the possibility that there are two space-time locations, one where the plane crashed right where it would have, and one where it got sucked into another spot in space-time, on the island, and about 1 out of 5 passengers survived. This is a way to come up with a big over-arching explanation for the show (metacode for any comp lit geeks:biggrin: ) that kills a bunch of birds with one stone, i.e. why they haven't been found, why no one can see the island, what the electro-magnetic anomoly did, why the island is special, why they inexplicably survived a devastating crash, etc.

A lot of the outstanding mysteries can be captured under that umbrella...

Flame away!

Great post

You probably will get flamed because you made sense. hahaha

First she's not Lying

I mean do the people who think she's lying even watch the show? We saw that Penny picked up the signal and had a team searching for Desmond. Its not even an option

2nd
The plane was not brought up. Thats also obvious. You dont explain its in the deepest part of the ocean---an ocean trench--and say they saw the bodies with remote cameras if they brought it up. Naomi has detailed info because she is search and rescue professional.

3rd
We have 2 different people saying the survivors were dead--Naomi and Cooper. Both were real

You guys just make it harder on yourselfs by questioning the obvious stuff. There are plenty of things we dont know. The question here is... fake plane, or alternate timeline caused by Desmonds Time Travel trip.

As for DNA to Identify the bodys do you guys remember way way back in season one when Claire was looking for Hairbrushes and couldnt find any

As for dead bodies, they had all the dead bodies on the beach with the Tallies, they didnt need 300 bodies they just need some so if people wanted to they could "try" and then they could say it just didnt work.

Or it was just faked with fake video feeds. No second fake plane and no timeline distortions.

First she's not Lying
I mean do the people who think she's lying even watch the show? We saw that Penny picked up the signal and had a team searching for Desmond. Its not even an option


We know Penny is searching for Des but we are not certain that Naomi is the searcher hired by Penny.

When we first saw Naomi she was surrounded by three english speaking people but she chose to speak Spanish, Chinese and Italian. She was testing them to see if they understood her. And she most certainly did not tell Mikhail 'Thank You'; she told him something completely different.
So, yes I watch the show & yes, she could be lying.

I believe Naomi. If a Hanso or (more likely, IMO) Widmore subsidiary did the search/recovery, several things get neatly tied up:

1) They can use DNA from the hairbrushes that Ethan must have stolen to establish the identities of the bodies beyond any doubt. I agree that in real life they probably wouldn't need or get it, but it would be proof positive. And it explains the hairbrushes too well.

2) The fact that it's at the bottom of a 4-mile trench means they don't have to produce any part of the wreckage that they couldn't have gotten from the Island (it would have to be small).

3) While it's a mystery why it would be in Bali (maybe a hijacking story), they wouldn't want anyone looking or going anywhere near the Island, so that's a major misdirection.

That way they get to keep the Island a secret and do whatever they like with the Lostaways. But it doesn't bode well for Michael and Walt going free.

They could send a manned submersible to verify the wreckage / collect DNA and they probably would. http://www.bismarck-class.dk/bismarck/expeditions/shinkai_6500.html Four miles is about 6437metres, although this is the only manned submersible capable of reaching this depth.

There is not a chance in the world anyone would take DNA from a crash 4 miles deep

Im mean come on guys..what do you think... someone said, "Hey guys maybe those arent the real bodies..maybe they are decoys?"

Gosh - finally someone I agree with. This guy beat me to the punch in exposing another really (frankly) DUMB idea.

If a flight goes missing and investigators find the plane and there are bodies in it, why in the world would they start test the bodies for DNA? "Hmmm.... we located the plane and there are bodies inside but let's do DNA tests just to make sure these aren't fake bodies put on the plane by aliens". GET REAL.

Good job Burger. I need a few more like you to help me out.

I would think everyone on record as boarding a flight that crashed into the ocean and found 4 miles down would be presumed dead. There would be a search that lasts a few days to search for possible, but unlikely, survivors. No one would be pressing to have DNA to prove all bodies are accounted for. No one would question that they all died.

I couldn't agree with you more Eyeland Soul. I wouldn't press to have DNA samples taken if I found out one of my family members were on that plane, and hearing that it crashed. For me the mere fact they never contacted me again after that would be proof enough that a scandal was not created. The only way I would be suspicious is if the plane flew over the infamous Bermuda Triangle region...and even then, I don't thing there is enough proof based on that theory to take in account that they would still be alive somewhere. So I would have to agree with the fact that a plane wreckage found four (4) miles deep with bodies still in tact is proof enough for me.

Bali is nearly 5,000 miles from where the pilot claims to have lost radio contact and had to turn back. I would say that there is no way that those remains are from flight 815, BUT...

What if the plane wreck in Bali is flight 815? What if the plane that "crashed" into the Island is not? How about some plan by DHARMA to put everyone on board flight 815 to sleep and land at a secluded airstrip somewhere in the Aussie outback, take the passengers they want off the plane and ditch the rest of the plane and passengers into the deepest trench they could fine and cry "Hijack" if anyone asks how the plane ended up in Bali. Then get the wanted passengers to the Island somehow by some over means and somehow fake a plane crash on the Island.

The biggest mystery on Lost is still how anyone survived the plane crash that the others witnessed, i mean come on, there should be no survivors from a plane crash like that, they were somehow "placed" on the Island.

Gosh - finally someone I agree with. This guy beat me to the punch in exposing another really (frankly) DUMB idea.

If a flight goes missing and investigators find the plane and there are bodies in it, why in the world would they start test the bodies for DNA? "Hmmm.... we located the plane and there are bodies inside but let's do DNA tests just to make sure these aren't fake bodies put on the plane by aliens". GET REAL.

Good job Burger. I need a few more like you to help me out.

Get real indeed. And normally I would agree, but when the plane turns up thousands of miles in the opposite direction to where it should be, chances are there would be questions about whether or not the plane found and the missing plane are one and the same. If the wreckage had been found in the middle of some ocean trench off the west coast of Africa, do you think they would still just assume it is the same plane, because, what else could it be?

Get real indeed. And normally I would agree, but when the plane turns up thousands of miles in the opposite direction to where it should be, chances are there would be questions about whether or not the plane found and the missing plane are one and the same. If the wreckage had been found in the middle of some ocean trench off the west coast of Africa, do you think they would still just assume it is the same plane, because, what else could it be?


If the plane was positively ID'd by someone or something, it would not have been difficult for the others to take small fragments of the real crashed plane with identifying marks to prove it was flight 815. Even some identification from the people they kidnapped, with most plane crashes, usually stuff is floating still, all it would take would be some small piece of evidence to prove it was the plane and then one of the kidnapped persons ID badge or soemthing, saying it was recovered near the wreckage floating.

This would provide 1. Proof positive it was the right plane and 2. Proof positive it was a passenger's or crew members ID.

No need for DNA, no need to recover the craft. And retrieving the black box would be nearly impossible at that depth.

Also, by planting the black box on the fake wreckage site would be enough to locate the fake wreckage, no one would have to stumble upon it. Perhaps the others just put the real black box in the fake plane, the beacon from it would lead investigators straight to the wreckage.

Bali is nearly 5,000 miles from where the pilot claims to have lost radio contact and had to turn back. I would say that there is no way that those remains are from flight 815, BUT...

What if the plane wreck in Bali is flight 815? What if the plane that "crashed" into the Island is not? How about some plan by DHARMA to put everyone on board flight 815 to sleep and land at a secluded airstrip somewhere in the Aussie outback, take the passengers they want off the plane and ditch the rest of the plane and passengers into the deepest trench they could fine and cry "Hijack" if anyone asks how the plane ended up in Bali. Then get the wanted passengers to the Island somehow by some over means and somehow fake a plane crash on the Island.

The biggest mystery on Lost is still how anyone survived the plane crash that the others witnessed, i mean come on, there should be no survivors from a plane crash like that, they were somehow "placed" on the Island.
This is what I've been posting on another thread. Why stage a crash when you can have the real thing, where you have an easy way to bring it down? What if Desmond shot down the Bali plane, and this is the break up image we keep seeing? This would place the island near Bali. If the Lost survivors have really been temporarily drugged and kidnapped (just as Cooper was), the island doesn't need to be where we have until now assumed it is (or the computer number coordinates). Flight 815 could all along have been a flight to Dubai or Mumbai, not Los Angeles.

There is also a chance there is no decoy plane, no fake crash or real crash 4 miles deep, that the others faked the videos of it, and perpetrated a hoax on a grand level as a salvage vessel, or rescue vessel so the authorities would be satisfied and stop looking for flight 815.

There is also a chance there is no decoy plane, no fake crash or real crash 4 miles deep, that the others faked the videos of it, and perpetrated a hoax on a grand level as a salvage vessel, or rescue vessel so the authorities would be satisfied and stop looking for flight 815.

YES! This is my theory and I'm sticking to it. I ask..why go to all the time and expense of using a decoy wreckage when you can simply fake it by video?

I like the idea of faking it by video - the others are just so craft and we really never know what they're up to, so out of all the theories on this thread i think I'm going to have to agree with that one!

There is also a chance there is no decoy plane, no fake crash or real crash 4 miles deep, that the others faked the videos of it, and perpetrated a hoax on a grand level as a salvage vessel, or rescue vessel so the authorities would be satisfied and stop looking for flight 815.
If you were the director of Widmore, which would you choose:

1.) Generating a hoax that you hope would keep hundreds of families seeking answers and ultimately expose your highly illegal enterprise.
2.) Or make the 815 crash real, and eliminate any possibility of discovery save from the kidnapped people on the island themselves.

I dunno, at 4 miles down wouldn't the pressure be enough to crush the plane? They didn't say the plane was strewn apart 4 miles down, more like it hit and sank. I dunno, the way they talk about it, it seems that the plane was pretty intact when the SROV "eyeballed it" and if that was the case I would think it would've been crushed by the pressure (<>..<>)

I dunno, at 4 miles down wouldn't the pressure be enough to crush the plane? They didn't say the plane was strewn apart 4 miles down, more like it hit and sank. I dunno, the way they talk about it, it seems that the plane was pretty intact when the SROV "eyeballed it" and if that was the case I would think it would've been crushed by the pressure (<>..<>)The only way I can think of the plane sinking, intact is if it filled with water. The metal would just sink but not crush, like the Titanic.

This may tie into the coverup theory.

As I said before the DNA could of been collected from the hairbrushes that were missing from the flight wreckage and then presented to the world as proof....


OMG !! This may be the meaning behind Claire's statement early on in the series that all the hairbrushed were missing. The luggage on the flight was ransacked by "TSA" folks, i.e. the hairbrushes removed for later "proof". If this is true many of us missed a big clue, and TPTB were correct when they said that they had 6 seasons outlined before production...

Very nice catch...

I think these are all great theories. I like the idea that the Others took the pieces of wreckage of the actual Flight 815, tossed 50 anonymous corpses on board, to make up for the survivors and dragged it out to Bali to be found.

Barring that, video wreckage makes the most sense.

First [Naomi]'s not Lying

I mean do the people who think she's lying even watch the show? We saw that Penny picked up the signal and had a team searching for Desmond. Its not even an option
No, we did not see that! I believe that to be a cover story -- that she hired them to make people think she was searching for Desmond from afar, and the signal was phony. I think she's very nearby; we have no way of knowing where inthe world her bedroom was.

We have 2 different people saying the survivors were dead--Naomi and Cooper. Both were real
What, two people can't conspire in a lie?

Robert

OK. Agreed this is definitely proof the wreckage they 'found' was fake.
Ben Saw the plane crash. The others saw the Plane crash.
The plane was flying from Sydney to Los Angeles- an easterly direction yet the 'wreckage' ended up near Bali. Thousands of Kms north, north west of Sydney.
We are supposed to believe that the plane was flying towards Bali the whole time and no-one noticed? Ignoring the fact that a flight from Sydney to LA is over ocean for almost the entire flight, whereas a flight from Sydney to Bali would have to cross a huge chunk of Australia, and NO-ONE NOTICED?? Now, the plane was being tracked until the time it disappeared from radio, and presumably flew for 2 more hours, 'lost' until it crashed. In this 2 hours it has turned around and made a direct course for Bali, and NO-ONE noticed?? and even if it DID do this it would have to pass between the top of Queensland in Australia and Papua New Guinea to get anywhere near Bali. without anyone seeing signs of land? Please.

AND THEN... as far as the world knew the plane was lost, over the pacific, somewhere along the route it was taking, yet, not more than 90 days later, presumably in real time, ignoring potential time discrepancies, someone just happens to stumble across the wreckage in a trench four miles deep in another ocean!? Why would anyone even be looking there?? It would be like searching for the Titanic in Antarctica! how could anyone in the real world even fathom that this could be the case? How could it possibly be explained to the public??

This more than anything else proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that either Naomi is lying, or Dharma is covering up something big, and doing a good job of it to get the public to swallow the glaring discrepancies in this cover story. So it was found in a 4 mile deep trench, and only by unmanned submersibles, yet they were able, apparently, to account for all the bodies in the plane??

*takes deep breathes*

As Conan Doyle said, when you elliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, is the truth.

We know that the world last saw the real 815 over the Pacific en route to LA, when it lost radio contact. What is the only possible explanation that the public would believe for an airliner turning around from there and ending up over Bali? ...Hijacking. Nothing else has ever made an airliner go that far off course, but hijacking has done so many times.

So some time after 815 disappeared, the decoy plane is spotted with 815's transponder signal showing indications of having been hijacked. A path from Fiji to southern Saudi Arabia or Somolia passes over Bali. (Or a path to Nigeria for that matter.) All that's left is a controlled crash into one of the only spots along that route with water that deep that is also near land and hence radar. They'd know right where to look, because the Bali radar stations would have seen it go down. And no one would ever attempt any kind of recovery from that depth.

So if Naomi is telling the truth, which I'm sure she is, that's got to be what happened, unless I'm missing some other possibility.
100%
I like the idea of faking it by video - the others are just so craft and we really never know what they're up to, so out of all the theories on this thread i think I'm going to have to agree with that one!

Video would never be enough. There would have to be evidence for the entire course of events, especially for how it ended up over Bali.

You have to ask yourself, why would they take dna, they identified the plane therefore there would be no need for dna testing they would know who was on it, due to the passenger manifest the airline would have, unless there is a reason they think the crash was faked which I doubt.

People tend to believe what they're told. If someone shows that they have planes and boats out looking for wreckage and they tell everyone there were no survivors, people are naive enough to believe them...except conspiracy theorists.

As Conan Doyle said, when you elliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, is the truth.

We know that the world last saw the real 815 over the Pacific en route to LA, when it lost radio contact. What is the only possible explanation that the public would believe for an airliner turning around from there and ending up over Bali? ...Hijacking. Nothing else has ever made an airliner go that far off course, but hijacking has done so many times.

So some time after 815 disappeared, the decoy plane is spotted with 815's transponder signal showing indications of having been hijacked. A path from Fiji to southern Saudi Arabia or Somolia passes over Bali. (Or a path to Nigeria for that matter.) All that's left is a controlled crash into one of the only spots along that route with water that deep that is also near land and hence radar. They'd know right where to look, because the Bali radar stations would have seen it go down. And no one would ever attempt any kind of recovery from that depth.

So if Naomi is telling the truth, which I'm sure she is, that's got to be what happened, unless I'm missing some other possibility.
100%


Video would never be enough. There would have to be evidence for the entire course of events, especially for how it ended up over Bali.
This makes some sense, but it involves two 815 plane crashes, and there's the problem of the media finding out about hijackings very quickly. The only solid solution I see is that the island is actually near Bali, and 815 was a regularly scheduled flight to the Middle East or South Asia. The hoax would then be that the Lost passengers are led to believe they are on flight 815 to LA, and we viewers have bought into that hoax. This leaves just one plane crash near the Bali coast, and no elaborate need to stage any of the two crashes. The computer number lat/lon coordinates are part of the hoax.

People tend to believe what they're told. If someone shows that they have planes and boats out looking for wreckage and they tell everyone there were no survivors, people are naive enough to believe them...except conspiracy theorists.

I agree...and for better or worse most conspiracy theorists are are NOT taken seriously.




Video would never be enough. There would have to be evidence for the entire course of events, especially for how it ended up over Bali.

It could be done. With enough planning and money just about any evidence could be faked.

Actual wreckage, faked wreckage or faked documentation, I think the real question here is: Why Bali?

That's the only point, to me, that seems to point to an actual plane wreck. If they were faking, wouldn't they have picked a location in the South Pacific, at least, to jibe with the plane's original route? Choosing Bali seems unnecessarily complex. The Pacific is a big ocean, I'm sure they didn't need to go as far as Bali to misdirect attention away from Craphole Island.

If we can't answer the Why Bali? question in relation to faked wreckage/documentation, then we may have to reexamine the idea that the crash of Flight 815 near Bali was, somehow and inexplicably, real.

Actual wreckage, faked wreckage or faked documentation, I think the real question here is: Why Bali?

That's the only point, to me, that seems to point to an actual plane wreck. If they were faking, wouldn't they have picked a location in the South Pacific, at least, to jibe with the plane's original route? Choosing Bali seems unnecessarily complex. The Pacific is a big ocean, I'm sure they didn't need to go as far as Bali to misdirect attention away from Craphole Island.

If we can't answer the Why Bali? question in relation to faked wreckage/documentation, then we may have to reexamine the idea that the crash of Flight 815 near Bali was, somehow and inexplicably, real.

I think the answer to "Why Bali?" is probably fairly simple and straightforward. If whoever is covering up the real story is able to come up with an explanation for why they were so far off course, then they probably want to divert attention as far away from the actual location of the Island as possible.

1 variable that I think most people are overlooking with this thread:

They assume the pilot was telling the truth about being off course and such, before he died. How do we know he wasn't in on the con? (Others, dharma, widi, penny...)

It is not that far fetched since Cindy (the stewardess on the flight) appears to be in on things, at least now....also there was cut scene (I believe season 1, with the pilot and another passenger before the flight)...he could end up being in on things.

Then the whole contradiction in stories, and the flight being so many miles off course,...lost contact...all that stuff - could be misinformation.

Did ya think about that possibility?
100%
1 variable that I think most people are overlooking with this thread:

They assume the pilot was telling the truth about being off course and such, before he died. How do we know he wasn't in on the con? (Others, dharma, widi, penny...)

It is not that far fetched since Cindy (the stewardess on the flight) appears to be in on things, at least now....also there was cut scene (I believe season 1, with the pilot and another passenger before the flight)...he could end up being in on things.

Then the whole contradiction in stories, and the flight being so many miles off course,...lost contact...all that stuff - could be misinformation.

Did ya think about that possibility?

No, we did not see that! I believe that to be a cover story -- that she hired them to make people think she was searching for Desmond from afar, and the signal was phony. I think she's very nearby; we have no way of knowing where inthe world her bedroom was.


What, two people can't conspire in a lie?

Robert

Dude, no offense, are you on crack? :biggrin:

They assume the pilot was telling the truth about being off course and such, before he died. How do we know he wasn't in on the con? (Others, dharma, widi, penny...)

It is not that far fetched since Cindy (the stewardess on the flight) appears to be in on things, at least now....also there was cut scene (I believe season 1, with the pilot and another passenger before the flight)...he could end up being in on things.

Then the whole contradiction in stories, and the flight being so many miles off course,...lost contact...all that stuff - could be misinformation.

Did ya think about that possibility?

I've often wondered why Smokie would have killed the pilot, and the only thing I can come up with is because the pilot wasn't supposed to live to tell the real story.

1 variable that I think most people are overlooking with this thread:

They assume the pilot was telling the truth about being off course and such, before he died. How do we know he wasn't in on the con? (Others, dharma, widi, penny...)

It is not that far fetched since Cindy (the stewardess on the flight) appears to be in on things, at least now....also there was cut scene (I believe season 1, with the pilot and another passenger before the flight)...he could end up being in on things.

Then the whole contradiction in stories, and the flight being so many miles off course,...lost contact...all that stuff - could be misinformation.

Did ya think about that possibility?

If you do a search, you will see how many people, support you in this. It has been a possibility from season 1.

There is not a chance in the world anyone would take DNA from a crash 4 miles deep

Im mean come on guys..what do you think... someone said, "Hey guys maybe those arent the real bodies..maybe they are decoys?"

I agree. It would be really impractical to retrieve DNA from bodies that are that deep in the ocean,

1st - 4 miles deep is very deep. How would they find the plane? The ocean is very big, so why would they look there?

2nd - getting a robot down there is possible, but i wonder, shouldn't the aircraft have been destroyed on impact with the water? in that case the bodys would be scatered all over the ocean bed for several yards or even miles (take in acount: oceanic currents, things don't fall straight down for 4 miles without moving a bit)

It seems a cover up to me.

The way Naomi talked about the wreckage being found in a 4 mile deep ocean trench and that they had to use robotic cameras to view the wreckage, points even more to a cover up by DHARMA or someone. They would not be able to salvage the plane and do DNA testing that deep. They only evidence they have is off the video from the robotic submersibles. I figured a cover up was in play last week, but this new info points to it even more.

Exactly. I was trying to explain that on Friday in another thread but I am not sure how it went over

The way Naomi talked about the wreckage being found in a 4 mile deep ocean trench and that they had to use robotic cameras to view the wreckage, points even more to a cover up by DHARMA or someone. They would not be able to salvage the plane and do DNA testing that deep. They only evidence they have is off the video from the robotic submersibles. I figured a cover up was in play last week, but this new info points to it even more.

Cool! I think it's part of one of the story arc's. I think it's part of what happpens pre-flight by a third party to the recovery and media information to the general public off Island.
There's got to be a story arc for Penny and Widmore Enterprise. I mean, Penny and the Arctic search team are the only glimpse of off Island story, isnt it? We cant interpret Desmonds "return" to the past as real off Island time. So that's got to be explored with Naomi. I hope!

Watch Naomi say to the Lostees the date was April 26th 2007 when she crashed!!!

Even if DNA tests were possible/likely to take from a wreck in an ocean trench, I do not think that DHARMA or Oceanic would be above faking DNA tests, if they faked the wreck in the first place. I think that if the DNA tests were faked, nobody would question the validity of them.

Exactly. I was trying to explain that on Friday in another thread but I am not sure how it went over
Sure, there is huge implausibility in recovering an intact plane 4 miles deep. But just how plausible is anything on this Lost show, especially mostly intact survivors of a plane breaking up in mid-air. When PSA flight 182 (which I missed by one day) collided with a small plane and crashed on land in San Diego, there was nothing left of the plane--it was a horrible tragedy.

DIDN'T SHE SAY THE WHOLE PLANE WAS DOWN THERE... AND THEY FOUND ALL THE BODIES IN THERE SEATS.. DIDN'T THE PLANE BREAK UP INTO 3 PIECES AND PEOPLE FLEW OUT.. SHE'S LYING!!! sorry for the caps, just realised and can't be bothered to type it all again!

1 variable that I think most people are overlooking with this thread:

They assume the pilot was telling the truth about being off course and such, before he died. How do we know he wasn't in on the con? (Others, dharma, widi, penny...)

It is not that far fetched since Cindy (the stewardess on the flight) appears to be in on things, at least now....also there was cut scene (I believe season 1, with the pilot and another passenger before the flight)...he could end up being in on things.

Then the whole contradiction in stories, and the flight being so many miles off course,...lost contact...all that stuff - could be misinformation.

Did ya think about that possibility?
100%
1 variable that I think most people are overlooking with this thread:

They assume the pilot was telling the truth about being off course and such, before he died. How do we know he wasn't in on the con? (Others, dharma, widi, penny...)

It is not that far fetched since Cindy (the stewardess on the flight) appears to be in on things, at least now....also there was cut scene (I believe season 1, with the pilot and another passenger before the flight)...he could end up being in on things.

Then the whole contradiction in stories, and the flight being so many miles off course,...lost contact...all that stuff - could be misinformation.

Did ya think about that possibility?

The best reason for assuming that the pilot was telling the truth is that Desmond and Danielle both said that their boat wrecks happened between Tahiti and Fiji. The pilot said they were heading toward Fiji at the time of the crash. This either means that they are where the pilot said they were or Danielle, the pilot, and Desmond are all conspiring together.

The plane crash on the island has been shown twice, from the losties perspective and the others, so it clearly seems to have happened, whereas the trench plane crash has only come from Naomi's verbal account. Although viewers would perhaps feel a bit cheapted if she was simply lying. The alternative then is that someone faked the crash site in order to stop the search for the real plane. Beyond that we're into the weird stuff - parallel universes etc.