What possible reason could Ben have to want John to kill Cooper? Simple manipulation? Is John really "special"? Do they think he's their Messiah? That Mittelos guy seemed to agree that John was "special." What was that about? :confused:

I don't have anything interesting to add to this thread. I just wanted to pop in and say hi to a fellow cajun. Believe it or not, I'm a Boudreaux from down da' bayou, sha!
From around Houma actually.

What possible reason could Ben have to want John to kill Cooper? Simple manipulation? Is John really "special"? Do they think he's their Messiah? That Mittelos guy seemed to agree that John was "special." What was that about? :confused:

Is John so special, or is he being manipulated? Remember, Ben's MO is to "find out what people are emotionally invested in, and then exploit it." And Locke's life turned around the moment when he finally met his mother and she told him he was special, and it all turned out to be a ruse. To dangle in front of him the prospect that that's really true, that he IS really special, seems like the perfect exploitation of his vulnerability. Or, OTOH, maybe he IS special. I guess Locke once again has "the button conundrum": is it all true? is this his destiny? or is it all a lie?

Is John so special, or is he being manipulated? Remember, Ben's MO is to "find out what people are emotionally invested in, and then exploit it." And Locke's life turned around the moment when he finally met his mother and she told him he was special, and it all turned out to be a ruse. To dangle in front of him the prospect that that's really true, that he IS really special, seems like the perfect exploitation of his vulnerability. Or, OTOH, maybe he IS special. I guess Locke once again has "the button conundrum": is it all true? is this his destiny? or is it all a lie?

But, is Ben using the "special" thing to both manipulate John AND the Others? Has a Messiah been promised for a long time (maybe an unseen "Jacob"), and Ben saw a way to both get his "Jacob" and retain total control?
100%
I don't have anything interesting to add to this thread. I just wanted to pop in and say hi to a fellow cajun. Believe it or not, I'm a Boudreaux from down da' bayou, sha!
From around Houma actually.

Hey! How's ya mom en'em?

Is John so special, or is he being manipulated? Remember, Ben's MO is to "find out what people are emotionally invested in, and then exploit it." And Locke's life turned around the moment when he finally met his mother and she told him he was special, and it all turned out to be a ruse. To dangle in front of him the prospect that that's really true, that he IS really special, seems like the perfect exploitation of his vulnerability. Or, OTOH, maybe he IS special. I guess Locke once again has "the button conundrum": is it all true? is this his destiny? or is it all a lie?

I agree - John is being manipulated. Richard seems like Ben's recruiter: he's the one who got Juliette to sign on. I suspect he's doing the same to Locke. But why?

I'm curious how long the con is: is the button part of it? Does it go back to life on the mainland? I'm willing to bet it does in Anthony Cooper's case - the car accident sounds like a setup, like Juliette's husband's bus accident.

I found it fishy... the whole Richard thing. Wouldn't he be the most likely one to have brought Cooper/Sawyer? He's the outside connection, and he appeared on the island at just the right time. So he was in on this plan, why would he make it seem like it is Ben's thing... and Locke's actions lead to the appearance of Cooper?

i don't know why, but the others are constantly trying to get the losties to act out of character. getting michael and locke to kill people, for example. and they seem so thrilled when they can accomplish this.
this blatant manipulation must have a point and it may have something to do with the valenzetti equation mentioned in the dharma materials. as i understand the concept of the equation, valenzetti determined that the world heading for disaster - self-annihilation. he theorized "the equation" (i.e. all the known factors acting and reacting in concert) will always lead to disaster, no matter what you do to try to stop it.
the only way to change the result of this equation is to change the equation itself. in other words, 2 plus 2 always equals 4, you can't change that. but if you can change a 2 into a 6 . . .
the type of disasters that were discussed in the equation were one brought about by human mistakes - climate change, war, etc. this implies to me that the "factors" that the others are trying to change relate to basic human behavior. the losties are their test subjects to see if this is possible. a bad person reacting to a bad person always brings a bad result. but if you can change the bad person into a good person . . . or vice versa.

But, is Ben using the "special" thing to both manipulate John AND the Others? Has a Messiah been promised for a long time (maybe an unseen "Jacob"), and Ben saw a way to both get his "Jacob" and retain total control?100%

Is that why they took Walt? Because they thought he might be the special one? He talked of having to do tests -perhaps tests to prove his worthiness?

I don't think Ben is using the special thing to manipulate his people. I think he is trying to get rid of anyone who might take his position as leader. He must be aware of the talk about him and his priorities. I think Ben has to pretend to want Locke to be special so his people don't suspect him of deliberately undermining Locke.

So before Ben tells Locke he has to kill his father he goes out of his way to make Locke feel special by telling him he started to feel pins and needles as soon as he showed up. The implication is that Locke healed Ben. Locke buys it too by the look on his face. He is still trying to win other people's approval. Then Ben knocks him down publicly and figures he has gotten rid of his competition.

Maybe Ben sabotaged Walt too and that's why he let him get away.

Ben is jealous of Locke because of his connection to the island. If Locke kills someone he will lose that connection. John is on the "good" list because he has never killed anyone.

Ben told Locke that he was coming to the Swan to get him because he was special. Some people think that not killing someone in your past is what the Others consider "special." Of course we don't really know what the real meaning is yet, but what if Ben wanted to make Locke responsible for killing someone so that he didn't have as much power on the island anymore? Ben doesn't want anyone to make him look bad.

I'm not sure Ben did want Locke to kill Cooper. I don't think he believed he would or could go through with it. Alpert, on the other hand, seemed determined to bump Cooper off and gave Locke the means to do so.

My feeling is that Ben established the rules of a game Locke couldn't win (killing his dad in front of the community) in order to retain his position. Alpert, who may wish to usurp Ben, called his bluff.

I'm not sure Ben did want Locke to kill Cooper. I don't think he believed he would or could go through with it. Alpert, on the other hand, seemed determined to bump Cooper off and gave Locke the means to do so.

My feeling is that Ben established the rules of a game Locke couldn't win (killing his dad in front of the community) in order to retain his position. Alpert, who may wish to usurp Ben, called his bluff.

That's actually a really good thought. Alpert may on first glance seem to be higher up than Ben, but maybe he's not and is just working to get up there to his status and/or surpass him. The thought that Ben may have intentionally "established the rules of a game that Locke couldn't win" is just great; it completely plays into Ben's controlling personality - 'defeating' Locke in that manner, after all that Locke has been able to do in regard to playing fair with and 'beating' the island, must be a huge mental/moral victory for Ben and for making Locke look bad in front of the other Others :rolleyes: just makes Ben look more powerful.

On the other hand, it could be argued that the other Others :rolleyes: simply expected Locke to follow Ben's orders now that he has essentially become one of them but that Locke gained huge respect and points by not caving to the "all-powerful" Ben.

I'm not sure if Richard is really pro or con with regards to Ben but...

I think that killing his father is an (oddly) perfectly reasonable test for Locke to show his commitment to the others. Juliet had to 'drink the kool-aid' and leave her sister behind - which seems to be the only off-island thing that she cares about. John's father is a burden to him. He would be living happily ever after with PeggyBundy if it wasn't for his father. The only way for him to truly *live* is for that man to die.

the type of disasters that were discussed in the equation were one brought about by human mistakes - climate change, war, etc. this implies to me that the "factors" that the others are trying to change relate to basic human behavior. the losties are their test subjects to see if this is possible. a bad person reacting to a bad person always brings a bad result. but if you can change the bad person into a good person . . . or vice versa.
I like your theory sandiego6656, the Others seem to be amoral so wouldn't much care about causing a death, it fits in with Desmond's take on trying to save Charlie, and gives me hope for him but, I am more inclined to agree with Dublin Dilettante,
My feeling is that Ben established the rules of a game Locke couldn't win (killing his dad in front of the community) in order to retain his position. Alpert, who may wish to usurp Ben, called his bluff.

I don't agree with hugh person
I think that killing his father is an (oddly) perfectly reasonable test for Locke to show his commitment to the others...The only way for him to truly *live* is for that man to die.
Whether Cooper is dead or alive, Locke will always wonder why his father didn't love him and why he couldn't change that. Killing him not only adds a new burden, guilt, but it eliminates the possibility that he will ever know why or ever change his father's mind. Locke will never be free of Cooper until Locke can change his own mindset. He would have a better chance of that with Cooper alive.

That's actually a really good thought. Alpert may on first glance seem to be higher up than Ben, but maybe he's not and is just working to get up there to his status and/or surpass him. The thought that Ben may have intentionally "established the rules of a game that Locke couldn't win" is just great; it completely plays into Ben's controlling personality - 'defeating' Locke in that manner, after all that Locke has been able to do in regard to playing fair with and 'beating' the island, must be a huge mental/moral victory for Ben and for making Locke look bad in front of the other Others :rolleyes: just makes Ben look more powerful.

On the other hand, it could be argued that the other Others :rolleyes: simply expected Locke to follow Ben's orders now that he has essentially become one of them but that Locke gained huge respect and points by not caving to the "all-powerful" Ben.

You know, this may be dead on. Ben's other major act this episode was to make sure the tape recorder was found so that Juliette's situation would become a no-win situation, much like the demand that John kill his father. Ben's just playing both sides against the middle.

After watching the episode again, I'm sure that Ben really wanted Locke to kill Cooper. Just look at Ben during that scene. He was practically wild-eyed and drooling when Locke had the knife to Cooper's throat.
Ben wanted Locke to fo it but not for the reason he stated. What the real reason is... I dunno.

I don't agree with hugh person Whether Cooper is dead or alive, Locke will always wonder why his father didn't love him and why he couldn't change that. Killing him not only adds a new burden, guilt, but it eliminates the possibility that he will ever know why or ever change his father's mind. Locke will never be free of Cooper until Locke can change his own mindset. He would have a better chance of that with Cooper alive.

I was speculating what Ben's reason was for Locke to kill Cooper, not what Locke's therapist would advise ;) I still think is sounds like a reasonable demand for a mystery-island-cult that apparently has no qualms about killing innocent people when it serves their purpose.

I agree that Locke will never be free of Cooper until he can change his own mindset, and I think it was pretty clear from Cooper's words + actions that Locke would never find out why or change his father's mind. However, I think that killing Cooper changed his mindset, he finally stood up to his bully. Although I do think it's creepy that he did it in a very Ben-like (getting other people to want to do what you want them to do) way.

So, it's been awhile since anyone posted in this thread, but I came back to read it since there were a few posts since my last response. WOW. It dawned on me as I read the next post (inconsequential to the thought process) that Ben must have wanted Locke to kill his father because he believed that Locke was special, as he has always believed himself to be, and knew that Locke would need to be able to kill his dad as he was able to do. If Locke was not able to kill his dad, like Ben was able to do, what good is he?

What possible reason could Ben have to want John to kill Cooper? Simple manipulation? Is John really "special"? Do they think he's their Messiah? That Mittelos guy seemed to agree that John was "special." What was that about? :confused:


I think Ben wanted Locke to kill his father because that would make Locke "defiled" and thus not special. When Locke would not kill his father, Ben reacted out of anger and said "he's not who I thought he was."

Ben is jealous of Locke because of his connection to the island. If Locke kills someone he will lose that connection. John is on the "good" list because he has never killed anyone.I'm kind of leaning in this direction, as far as Locke's purity and connection to the island. I think that Ben is jealous of Locke's connection to the island and if killing someone makes you a 'not good' person, this would be the way to sully him.

Richard gave him a way to kill his father and stay 'pure'. Since Sawyer already killed someone, he had nothing to lose in the 'purity' department.