So Sawyer has killed the man who set him on his revenge mission and defined the dark path of his life. I hear a lot of people saying that he's going to die now since his story is over.

Not by a long shot. Living on the Island is about finding redemption. Sawyer may have killed Cooper, but that did't bring him "redemption," it just closed the door on the most painful part of his past. Now he has to build up something new in life. He has to start over again. And that will be the biggest challenge the Island has for him.

It's interesting because as much as the Island frowns on killers as it were I believe that this was the only way Sawyer could possibly move on and rebuild as it were. His chance at redemption comes now,the actions and choices he makes AFTER the fact are what will determine whether he can be redeemed.

I believe one of Locke and Sawyer are gone, every time something is resolved, someone dies.

The question is, will it be Locke or Sawyer or maybe both? :eek2:

Sawyer (James) was barefoot on the trek to the Black Rock.

Abbey Road, anyone?

I think you're slightly mistaken when you say the island is all about redemption. I think it's as much about damnation too.

I know this is really nuts, but wanted to capture my immediate first reaction about when Sawyer and Cooper were locked in the brig.

I kept thinking about multiple timeline theories and that Cooper WAS Sawyer in another timeline. I was reminded about the Heisenberg box theory with the alive/dead cat both being in the same state until you opened the box. If this were the case, Sawyer didn't really kill Cooper just the "Sawyer" state emerged. No-one actually had to 'bring' Cooper to the island. Of course I can't explain the body.

It was similar with Eko seeing is brother. "You keep speaking to me as if I were your brother". It could have been the 'two' Ekos (good/evil). In that case evil Eko came ou of the box and died.

I abandoned my theory as the scene played out though. the most logical solution ended up being what they presented...that Cooper was the guy that killed Sawyer's parents and he killed him.

I feel like I was 'manipulated' into my first reaction...and it was strong....maybe the writers are OTHERS.

Because he killed Cooper in the end, Sawyer failed to redeem himself. If he had turned away, he would have been redeemed.

Which makes me happy, because to me it means Sawyer isn't dying soon. He still has more karmic work to do.

It is not about redemption. It is about coming to terms with your past. Every one of the loties experienced some form of trauma in their lives. Here they can confront it and deal with it. They are not being judged.

So Sawyer has killed the man who set him on his revenge mission and defined the dark path of his life. I hear a lot of people saying that he's going to die now since his story is over.

Not by a long shot. Living on the Island is about finding redemption. Sawyer may have killed Cooper, but that did't bring him "redemption," it just closed the door on the most painful part of his past. Now he has to build up something new in life. He has to start over again. And that will be the biggest challenge the Island has for him.

The more that I look at it, the more that I think that if Sawyer would have to die then Locke would also. They were both tormented by the same man and now that he's gone, I agree, the rest of their stories will be about them finding out who they are now that the monkey is off of their backs.

It is not about redemption. It is about coming to terms with your past. Every one of the loties experienced some form of trauma in their lives. Here they can confront it and deal with it. They are not being judged.

I disagree... Smokey seems to be very much into judging people.

I disagree... Smokey seems to be very much into judging people.

Smokey was responsible only for Eko's death. Eko completed his journey from a person who appeared to have faith but did not, to a person who finally believed in a purpose as well as himself. In every case (except Libby) death is the completion of the therapy. The same is true for Eko. If he repented and blamed himself for his circumstance then he would not be true to himself. As he said he did the best he could under the circumstances.

[quote=ForgivenTheWarlord;1529094]The more that I look at it, the more that I think that if Sawyer would have to die then Locke would also. They were both tormented by the same man and now that he's gone, I agree, the rest of their stories will be about them finding out who they are now that the monkey is off of their backs.

Excellent post. I agree that they both now will move on and strive.

Smokey was responsible only for Eko's death. Eko completed his journey from a person who appeared to have faith but did not, to a person who finally believed in a purpose as well as himself. In every case (except Libby) death is the completion of the therapy. The same is true for Eko. If he repented and blamed himself for his circumstance then he would not be true to himself. As he said he did the best he could under the circumstances.

His manner of death did not seem to indicate that Smokey was pleased with Eko's decision to "do the best he could". Smokey seems to judge and if it dislikes your decisions, it kills you. I see no other reason for it to be interested in your past if it's not judging it.

His manner of death did not seem to indicate that Smokey was pleased with Eko's decision to "do the best he could". Smokey seems to judge and if it dislikes your decisions, it kills you. I see no other reason for it to be interested in your past if it's not judging it.

The common assumption is that smokey scans peoples minds but this is simply an assumption. Smokey generates images that are used for reminding individuals of events in their past. Smokey knows as much about the losties as the others do.

If you use manner of death as an indication then Boones death is more gruesome than Eko's death. However, death of the characters is designed to have an impact on the remaining characters. For example Boones gruesome death was designed to recreate Shannons fathers death in the car accident. When her father died Shannon lost her protector and was left toface her stepmother. She rebelled and started down a self destructive path. She blamed her father for leaving her. Boones death recreated that event only this time she was a witness to it. It helped her get over her resentment of her fathers death which she didn't actually witness and could not relate to. In this way each death works into another persons therapy. Eko's death had an impact on Locke. The people who actually die do not participate in the action of dying. They are compouter generated in a VR environment.

Sawyer ain't going anywhere. Sawyer = $$$ for Lost and ABC.

If you use manner of death as an indication then Boones death is more gruesome than Eko's death.

There's nothing that connects that to Smokey though so it's irrelevant.
"Yemi" tells Eko "It is time to confess. To be judged, Brother. I will be waiting. You know where to find me."

Eko goes to find him, does not confess his sins, but rather justifies his killing and "Yemi" kills him. From what Smokey says and does, it seems rather certainly that it is Judging people.

There's nothing that connects that to Smokey though so it's irrelevant.


Death is the end of the program regardless of how it happens, Smokey or not. That's the connection.


"Yemi" tells Eko

Eko goes to find him, does not confess his sins, but rather justifies his killing and "Yemi" kills him. From what Smokey says and does, it seems rather certainly that it is Judging people.

But if death is the completion of the program then why would smokey kill him rather than let the program continue if Eko was not finished?

Death is the end of the program regardless of how it happens, Smokey or not. That's the connection.



But if death is the completion of the program then why would smokey kill him rather than let the program continue if Eko was not finished?

I wish you would have expressed earlier that you were one of the Dr. Suds cultmembers... this conversation would have been a lot shorter.

I wish you would have expressed earlier that you were one of the Dr. Suds cultmembers... this conversation would have been a lot shorter.

I do not agree with Dr.Suds theories. I base mine or actual events that occur in the show.

I do not agree with Dr.Suds theories. I base mine or actual events that occur in the show.

Ok, I'm in the mood... what events?

Ok, I'm in the mood... what events?

Rather than rehashing everything in this thread I will simply tell you that my theory is that this is all VR Therapy and I will give you some pointers to other threads where I describe events in more detail.

VR Loony bin (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=40382) - My original theory (somewhat dated but basically sound)
Fate vs. Coincidence (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=52134) - Description of pre island and on island relations for characters.
Jack's Story (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=44734) - Jacks trauma resulting in False Memory Syndrome
Sawyer must die (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=60505) - Kate and Sawyer's therapy for Multiple Personality Disorder

Regardless of whether you agree with the theory or not you will see that I use actual events to base my conclusions on.

Smokey was responsible only for Eko's death. Eko completed his journey from a person who appeared to have faith but did not, to a person who finally believed in a purpose as well as himself. In every case (except Libby) death is the completion of the therapy. The same is true for Eko. If he repented and blamed himself for his circumstance then he would not be true to himself. As he said he did the best he could under the circumstances.


Eko was killed by the island because he failed to believe he could choose free will to change his fate to a good path. Eko insisted that he was a victim of his circumstance, and that he had to kill, steal, and deal drugs to survive. Compare that to his brother - who grew up under the circumstances - but turned to god and helping people to survive. Obviously, Eko is wrong - everyone is capable of controlling their own fate. THAT is the lesson of the island.

In fact, Ben mentioned something in this episode about Free Will when talking to Locke. "He explains that people need to prove their commitment, their free will, through an action: in this case, Locke is asked to kill his father."

Now, with the help of Sawyer, Locke has done this.

Eko was killed by the island because he failed to believe he could choose free will to change his fate to a good path. Eko insisted that he was a victim of his circumstance, and that he had to kill, steal, and deal drugs to survive. Compare that to his brother - who grew up under the circumstances - but turned to god and helping people to survive. Obviously, Eko is wrong - everyone is capable of controlling their own fate. THAT is the lesson of the island.

In fact, Ben mentioned something in this episode about Free Will when talking to Locke. "He explains that people need to prove their commitment, their free will, through an action: in this case, Locke is asked to kill his father."

Now, with the help of Sawyer, Locke has done this.

Eko allowed his brother to choose a pious path because of Eko's sacrifice. Who is Yemi to judge him? Eko tried to go the rightous path in his brohers footsteps but even though he learned the scriptures he never truly believed. He learned to believe on the island. That was his lesson.

Sawyer ain't going anywhere. Sawyer = $$$ for Lost and ABC.

Simplest answer to the whole question. Although I agree Sawyer needs to "clean up his own mess" now, and find a new life.

Eko allowed his brother to choose a pious path because of Eko's sacrifice. Who is Yemi to judge him? Eko tried to go the rightous path in his brohers footsteps but even though he learned the scriptures he never truly believed. He learned to believe on the island. That was his lesson.


What did he learn to believe on the island? He copped out - he refused to believe that he could have choosen free will and created his own fate. He stood in the face of Yemi (the island) and insisted he was right and had nothing to repent for. The smoke monster let him know how wrong he was in brutally killing Eko.

What did he learn to believe on the island? He copped out - he refused to believe that he could have choosen free will and created his own fate. He stood in the face of Yemi (the island) and insisted he was right and had nothing to repent for. The smoke monster let him know how wrong he was in brutally killing Eko.

The entire episode with the button was about his learning to believe. Contrary to Locke who believed in the button but lost his faith when Henry (Ben) told him that pushing the button did not do anything. Locke lost his faith in the button as he did when his father stole his kidney. Eko on the other hand never really had faith. When he found the Bible with the film strip inside and brought it back to the hatch before he turned it over to Locke he told the story of the lawgivers who were the originators of the Bible. When they viewed the strip it turned out that it contained the laws on how to use the computer effectively making Eko the lawgiver. Even then he chalked it up to coincidence. It was in the Perl that he realized that we are always being watched and our actions are being recorded and that people do what they do because they believe and not because they have to. This is when he learned to have faith which he exemplified by pushing the button because it held meaning for him. Locke on the other hand interpreted the whole thing as being pawns in a test and continued to separate himself from the group as he did in real life when he joined the commune. This was the real purpose of the hatch and the button just in case you missed it. It is all symbolic. You can probably figure out the role it played in Desmond's therapy with the cowardice and all.

Sawyer (James) was barefoot on the trek to the Black Rock.

Abbey Road, anyone?

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Finally I'm useful for something around here. I'll have to mark this day on my calendar.

I view Eko's death as unreliable for the time being for the simple fact that the writers had to rush him out of there (He wanted to leave)............tptb said that they had more they wanted to do with him. I'm not too certain that his death is a good example of what the monster/the monsters is/are....
100%
As far as Sawyer goes...like someone said, ABC is ultimately the power behind this show. Would they even allow his death?

His arc is over as far as I'm concerned, but Kates has been done for awhile too imo and they just keep stretching it. They always have the option of showing another one of his cons, heck, I'm slightly interested in his "Tampa Job" still...either way, I will never have the same view of Sawyer again. Any "issue" that they bring up surrounding him is insignificant at this point to what Cooper did to his family...

What did he learn to believe on the island? He copped out - he refused to believe that he could have choosen free will and created his own fate. He stood in the face of Yemi (the island) and insisted he was right and had nothing to repent for. The smoke monster let him know how wrong he was in brutally killing Eko.

Exactly.

Rather than rehashing everything in this thread I will simply tell you that my theory is that this is all VR Therapy and I will give you some pointers to other threads where I describe events in more detail.

VR Loony bin (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=40382) - My original theory (somewhat dated but basically sound)
Fate vs. Coincidence (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=52134) - Description of pre island and on island relations for characters.
Jack's Story (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=44734) - Jacks trauma resulting in False Memory Syndrome
Sawyer must die (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=60505) - Kate and Sawyer's therapy for Multiple Personality Disorder

Regardless of whether you agree with the theory or not you will see that I use actual events to base my conclusions on.

Putting aside the fact that I disagree with that theory and my reasons why (the least of which is that TPTB have said that "Lost" is not like the movie "Identity", which your theory especially concerning Sawyer and Kate, strongly resembles) I can't see it as valid because you're doing the same thing that Suds does, which is create a theory and then force everything to fit into it... rather than looking at All the evidence and making a theory that way. You are very creative though, I gotta hand it to you.

Exactly.



Putting aside the fact that I disagree with that theory and my reasons why (the least of which is that TPTB have said that "Lost" is not like the movie "Identity", which your theory especially concerning Sawyer and Kate, strongly resembles) I can't see it as valid because you're doing the same thing that Suds does, which is create a theory and then force everything to fit into it... rather than looking at All the evidence and making a theory that way. You are very creative though, I gotta hand it to you.

Dr. Suds makes no attempt whatsoever to relate events in the show to his theories. He puts himself in the place of the writers and presumes that he understands what they really intended without showing any real evidence. Look at my previous post concerning Eko and Locke and the button and tell me why you think I am forcing the evidence to fit the theory.

This isn't Identity, it does not take place in one persons mind. Even with Kate and Sawyer it is not playing out is their minds it is playing out in a VR environment in a very real and logical way. They are only one example of the real problems that people face as a result of trauma. Every one of the survivors has experienced trauma in their lives and are confronting it on the island.

Dr. Suds makes no attempt whatsoever to relate events in the show to his theories. He puts himself in the place of the writers and presumes that he understands what they really intended without showing any real evidence. Look at my previous post concerning Eko and Locke and the button and tell me why you think I am forcing the evidence to fit the theory.


Sure... your post on Locke and Eko is fine and deals with issues that the writers actually intended. Until you get to the end:


...This was the real purpose of the hatch and the button just in case you missed it. It is all symbolic. You can probably figure out the role it played in Desmond's therapy with the cowardice and all.

No evidence for any of that... you just take all of what was presented and declare it "symbolic" and that it had something to do with Desmond's "therapy" with nothing supporting it except your theory. That's working backwards.

This isn't Identity, it does not take place in one persons mind. Even with Kate and Sawyer it is not playing out is their minds it is playing out in a VR environment in a very real and logical way. They are only one example of the real problems that people face as a result of trauma. Every one of the survivors has experienced trauma in their lives and are confronting it on the island.

Their past traumas are real... you're making their current ones "manufactured" though. And whether they are manufactured by their own psyche or a computer... it's still a cheat and a carbon copy of "Identity". Especially considering Kate's "multiple personalitites".

No evidence for any of that... you just take all of what was presented and declare it "symbolic" and that it had something to do with Desmond's "therapy" with nothing supporting it except your theory. That's working backwards.

Their past traumas are real... you're making their current ones "manufactured" though. And whether they are manufactured by their own psyche or a computer... it's still a cheat and a carbon copy of "Identity". Especially considering Kate's "multiple personalitites".

I don't understand why you say it is backwards. I have a theory and these are the facts that support it. I do not claim that these are manufactured by their psyche I claim that they are contrived by Ben and others involved in this. There is a purpose. Additionally, it is repeated over and over for every one of the losties. Their past experiences are reflected in what happens to them on the island.

In conventional trauma therapy the therapist tries to get the patient to recount their trauma as part of the process of dealing with it, this is a fact. I claim that this is what is occurring on the island through manipulation of circumstances including the use of smokey and other "props" intended for this. As proof of this I listed some of the circumstances that occur on the island and how they are really reflections of past events for many of the losties in the thread Fate vs Coincidence (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=52134).

As for the use of VR in therapy this is a relatively new and seemingly successful science. You can read some examples of it here (http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/39/13/45) and here (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4806921) and here (http://drdeborahserani.blogspot.com/2005/11/virtual-reality-therapy-new-horizon.html) as how this is currently being used. The island is a projection of this technology into capabilities we do not currently have. This is the pseudo science part but it all based on very real science.

LostSanity i agree with your theory on some parts, but i disagree with the general premise.

For example i agree that some of the events on the island, some of the things affecting the characters have been orchestrated, and i agree with the symbolic references as well but i don't think it's through the use of VR therapy. It's all a bit ridiculous and if the last episode showed the character waking up in a laboratory and taking off their VR headset or something i and about 20 million people would be really disappointed. I mean didn't the writers debunk this theory? They said the characters were on the island, they're physically there, not manifestations, or incarnations, or computer generated models.

Smokey = child. To me Smokey acts like a child it runs around the island playing and probing (exploring) when it finds someone to play with that doesn't do what smokey whats he has a temper tantrum and breaks his toy.

LostSanity i agree with your theory on some parts, but i disagree with the general premise.

For example i agree that some of the events on the island, some of the things affecting the characters have been orchestrated, and i agree with the symbolic references as well but i don't think it's through the use of VR therapy. It's all a bit ridiculous and if the last episode showed the character waking up in a laboratory and taking off their VR headset or something i and about 20 million people would be really disappointed.

Well they did say that many people will be disappointed with the ending. It may seem ridiculous but based on the things that I have seen I am quite impressed with what they have done. I find it quite creative. The show isn't about smokey, it is about the losties and the journey they are on. The whole thing is very psychologically oriented and I am not altogether surprised that some people might not like this. Many would prefer an action adventure which this is to some extent but not at its heart.

I mean didn't the writers debunk this theory? They said the characters were on the island, they're physically there, not manifestations, or incarnations, or computer generated models.

Actually they never said that it isn't VR. They said it isn't something that someone imagines in their head which some people interpret as VR but VR isn't imagined. VR is a real technology. Obviously TPTB will not come out and admit that it is VR but if it isn't why would they not come out and say "it is not VR" after all they came out and said "it is not Purgatory" so why only innuendos about it not being VR?

Aaaand back to James.... hes got a lot to do on this show yet!

If the only reason people are thinking Sawyer is going to die is because his story arc is over then I think that's pretty rediculous. What do we have left to know about Jack's past? They could always dedicate a whole episode to a hair cut sawyer got and why and it would probably be as interesting and revealing as Jack's last flashback was. What left do we need to know about Charlie, Claire, Hurley, Sayid, Kate to name a few? Yeah there are little things fans of the characters would like to know, but it terms of major things most of them were over a while back.

I'd have been more worried about him dying if he hadn't been able to do it, because then he would be "redeemed" and in many ways his on island story would be over, The writers have so much milage with his character now, showing how he deals with what he has done and how this impacts with his change of status in the group, his relationship with kate, the possibility of her being pregnant. I can't see why they would kill his character who they still have a lot of material to work with when they have several characters who have been on the sidelines all season whose on and off island story is finished.

Umm, let me get this straight. Boone was computer generated and 'died' to help Shannon work through her abandonment issues, but then she went from being a real person being treated for her psychological problems to a computer generated thingy herself to 'die' in order to help Sayid work through his problems?

That's what sounds like you were positing here. And it sounds way too illogical and far-fetched to me.

Umm, let me get this straight. Boone was computer generated and 'died' to help Shannon work through her abandonment issues, but then she went from being a real person being treated for her psychological problems to a computer generated thingy herself to 'die' in order to help Sayid work through his problems?

That's what sounds like you were positing here. And it sounds way too illogical and far-fetched to me.

Are you seriously telling me that you don't understand what virtual reality is?

My problem about smokie being the Judge and executioner in one is who's rules is he using to judge people then? I'm inclined to think that Eko felt a lot of guilt and remorse regarding everything he had done previously, and even on the island (like killing those 2 others). Could be it was his guilty conscience that lead to Smokie killing him, maybe Eko had a subconcious death-wish. So if that's true then Sawyer's story from here is going to have to do with how he percieves his actions and if he can get over killing 2 men.

I don't understand why you say it is backwards. I have a theory and these are the facts that support it.

It's backwards because a person would not look at the Locke/Eko/button situation and say "ohhh... it's all Virtual Reality!" There's no way to gather that from anything that you've posted. Instead, you made a theory and whatever happens on the islandyou can attribute it to the "program".

There's no doubt that the Lostaways are experiencing situations where they get to confront their pasts and grow as people... but there's a large step between that and VR. Wo, what's your evidence that it's VR and not something else testing them?

It's backwards because a person would not look at the Locke/Eko/button situation and say "ohhh... it's all Virtual Reality!" There's no way to gather that from anything that you've posted. Instead, you made a theory and whatever happens on the islandyou can attribute it to the "program".

There's no doubt that the Lostaways are experiencing situations where they get to confront their pasts and grow as people... but there's a large step between that and VR. Wo, what's your evidence that it's VR and not something else testing them?

Ok let me go through the sequence of how I arrived at this theory. It was about half way through the second season I got the opportunity to watch all of the episodes back to back. I then realized how much I missed by just watching it weekly. I started wondering what is Dharma all about and Googled it and found out it was Buddhist teaching about how to live a more fruitfull life. So I looked at how this connected with Lost. I was struck by the fact that both Boone and Shannon died after attaining a sense of peace and coming to terms with their lives. I saw a connection. I then thought what is the point of having them achieve peace in their lives and then having them die. The only reason I could think of is that they didn't really die, so then what. Frankly Purgatoy never occured to me but VR did. I never thought too much about smokey up to then but figured why not VR, it explains it. I also started looking more closely at the characters because if it was VR then the strange events are easily explained but the real mysteries would lie with the losties themselves. I found several things that were interesting about the characters including about Jack in the pilot which led me to Jack's story (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=44734). I started seeing more and more character related revelations. The VR portion sort of bothered me because it was pretty much shot down by everyone. So I thought, well maybe it isn't really VR but they might have some implants that caused them to see things and whatever, but that didn't explain why they shouldn't die as well as other things. I didn't care about the technology because I was focused on the characters and things were making more and more sense.

However at the end of season 2 with LTDA I had a revelation. When it turned out that not pushing the button brought down the plane I realized that it was probably the stupidest thing I ever heard. The only thing that I thought might be stupider was that the computer couldn't be programmed to reset itself. The revelation to me was that the purpose of the button isn't what it appeared to be but it was to influence the losties. After that all the things I have been talking about fell into place.

As for VR it was still the most reasonable answer but if there was another solution then so be it. That was up until the first couple of episodes into season 3. As an aside I spent a lot of time exploring Kates background to try to make sense of it and came to realize there was more between her and Sawyer than we were being let on. After the second episode I realized what it was which I wrote about in Sawyer must die (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=60505). I also realized that this could only be possible in a VR environment so from there on I dropped all alternatives to VR. I also came to realize that the creators of the show are very imaginative and are using the unlimited potential of VR in many, many creative ways including genetic modeling (polar bears) AI (smokey) and maybe even Ben in addition to VR Therapy. Anyway, from this point of view almost everything makes sense including even the love triangle, the changes in characters behavior etc. There is much more to tell but not here.

So that is roughly the sequence of events that led me to this theory and ever since I have been finding more and more evidence to support it. I am not twisting facts to fit this theory but I do realize that events can be interpreted in multiple ways. After all the writers want to keep the mystery going and will not do anything stupid like provide irrefutable facts that show what is really happening. This is a mystery and as in any mystery, things are never as they appear. So accept or reject the theory as you wish but my suggestion is that if you really want to understand this show you concentrate much more on the characters and much less on the mythology.

I then thought what is the point of having them achieve peace in their lives and then having them die. The only reason I could think of is that they didn't really die, so then what. Frankly Purgatoy never occured to me but VR did.

Ok, this is how the theory started... now there are other options available such as "when they die, if they are at peace then they go to a Heaven-like paradise", but you chose VR instead... that's fine. It's as good a theory as any.

When it turned out that not pushing the button brought down the plane I realized that it was probably the stupidest thing I ever heard.

...As an aside I spent a lot of time exploring Kates background to try to make sense of it and came to realize there was more between her and Sawyer than we were being let on.

After that, however, you are taking things like Kate conversations with Sawyer that you find odd, and the fact that you think the button is "stupid" and fitting them in with the theory. "Sawyer" has life experiences that Kate hasn't... he met Jack's father, created a daughter (how did Kate pull that one off?) and was in prison. At this point the "Sawyer" bit is being Squeezed into a place that it does not fit.

What I mean is, if your theory came from you finding a common VR program name being used a few time in "Lost" then that theory would have come from a place where you were looking at the evidence and made a theory based on it. The way that you've done things (while not as off as Suds so I apologize for that) is more based upon a feeling when you couldn't think of why the characters would acheive peace and then be killed.

Ok, this is how the theory started... now there are other options available such as "when they die, if they are at peace then they go to a Heaven-like paradise", but you chose VR instead... that's fine. It's as good a theory as any.



After that, however, you are taking things like Kate conversations with Sawyer that you find odd, and the fact that you think the button is "stupid" and fitting them in with the theory. "Sawyer" has life experiences that Kate hasn't... he met Jack's father, created a daughter (how did Kate pull that one off?) and was in prison. At this point the "Sawyer" bit is being Squeezed into a place that it does not fit.

What I mean is, if your theory came from you finding a common VR program name being used a few time in "Lost" then that theory would have come from a place where you were looking at the evidence and made a theory based on it. The way that you've done things (while not as off as Suds so I apologize for that) is more based upon a feeling when you couldn't think of why the characters would acheive peace and then be killed.

What you say about fitting facts to a theory has much truth to it but you have to make allowances for the fact that the theory was developed before all of the facts were known. This is true for any theory because by definition a theory is based on incomplete information whether it is science or anything else. The interesting thing is if new facts can be fit into the theory. I have absolutely no problem in modifying the theory if there are contradictory facts which imply a different theory is needed. But I am also aware that sometimes apparent contradictions are simply due to incomplete information. In Lost we get many bits of incomplete information (like the arctic station) which is jumped upon by many to create new theories ignoring everything else prior to it. I prefer to wait until more information is made available. Meanwhile I do spend time conjecturing how some contradictory information might fit the theory but realize that there are many ways limited information can be interpreted and usually the creators of the show tend to go in different directions mainly because they tend to be more creative than I am.

So as far as reconciling Kate's and Sawyers's past there are, as you point out, several descrepencies. So let me conjecture on one aspect, which is Sawyers past where his father kills his mother and then commits suicide. If we merge this with Kate's past, of which we know very little, one possibility arises. Whe Kate is talking to Austen he mentions that something happened when Kate was 5 years old which resulted in the possibility of Austen taking Kate but her mother loved Wayne and she wanted her to go with him. There is also indication in the show that Diane is not Kate's natural mother. It is subtle but it exists and has been dicussed in at least one thread (not mine). Anyway, it is possible that Kates mother had an affair with Wayne and Kate was a result of this affair. When Kate was around 5 years old her father who was abusive to her and her mother found out about this and killed her mother then committed suicide. Before her mother died she asked Austen who was her brother or other relative to have Wayne raise Kate. Because Kate was abused by her father she developed an alternate personality and as result of this event her alternate personality took on the persona of Tom Sawyer which is a name more fitting to be adopted by kid then a con-man. This alternate personality is the one that Austen refers to as having murder in her heart.

Anyway you see the point. There is at least one and possibly more explanations that could tie the two together. Unlike Dr. Suds, I would never claim the above as a theory because it is nothing but conjecture at this point, the important thing is that it is one possible explanation and a number of other possible explanations exist. So I will wait, watch and see if any future clues allow this scenario to fit or force me to modify it. So you can see how my thinking progresses and has progressed over time. Surprisingly, many things that used to be holes turned out to have explanations that fit the theory. If you want a theory which doesn't change and fits all the facts exactly then I am afraid that you will have to wait unil the last episode is shown. Meanwhile, I will stay with what I consider to be the best explanation and if a better explanation comes along I will not hesitate to change my mind.