I have this sneaking suspicion that Cooper isn't dead quite yet. He server his purpose and revealed what stuff Sawyer (James) is made of. I think on the trek back, the island may revive him and then John will be back dealing with the same issue. Did I miss anything, or was Cooper's death left a bit ambiguous? Just a thought...

I think Cooper's story is over and that he is indeed dead. We've been waiting for Sawyer to meet the real Sawyer for a LONG time. We've waited for Locke to be rid of his father for a long time as well. He's dead, no doubt about it. Sawyer accomplished what he has been wanting to do for years.

It'd undo the power of the scene where Sawyer kills him and make that all for nothing. Apart from maybe some future flashbacks I think we've seen the last of Cooper.

Yeah nods in agreement, he's dead. No reason to drag that story on any longer.

Yeah nods in agreement, he's dead. No reason to drag that story on any longer.


OK, That all sounds better. I wasn't hoping he was alive, just wondered what everyone else thought. Thanks! :)

I was thinking that his death was ambiguous mostly because it takes a lot longer to kill someone by strangling than the time elapsed in that scene. But when Locke picks up his body at the end you can see that it is stiff, signifying rigor mortis, so I'm pretty sure he's really really dead. :cool:

Anybody else think it was funny that the whole scene reeked of Return of the Jedi when Leia killing Jabba by swinging a chain around his neck?

Although anything's possible, let's just think about it in terms of story impact and 'ohhhh for god's sake' factor. If Cooper isn't dead and pops up again like some cheesy B movie monster that's been shot 15 times already, won't that just make the audience moan? Also, as others have said, the execution scene then becomes watery and lame if Sawyer wasn't even physically strong enough to do it properly - he certainly was intending to kill him, I don't want to hear people saying that he was trying to leave him alive... Thirdly, some people are saying it wasn't coops, it was the smoke monster. Once again, anti-climax if that's the case because I think the audience wants coops dead, and we're going all around the houses if it wasn't even real. It would make for bad story telling.

But - we'll see.

Was it my imagination - or tv station - or was there a spoken word after Locke hoisted Cooper onto his back? Played it back 3 times and it's a voice, thought I can't decipher what's said.

If you watch next week's preview, your question
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If you watch next week's preview, your question will be answered.

I'm not giving you the answer, I'm just directing you to it.

I have this sneaking suspicion that Cooper isn't dead quite yet. He server his purpose and revealed what stuff Sawyer (James) is made of. I think on the trek back, the island may revive him and then John will be back dealing with the same issue. Did I miss anything, or was Cooper's death left a bit ambiguous? Just a thought...
Yessssssssssssssssssss! Brace yourselves: I don't even think that WAS the real Cooper! I think that was a Dharma-eugenics-whipped-up clone or something (I know, I know, it sounds far-fetched, but then so does Mikhail being alive and there being bodies of our LOSTaways found in the faux Flight 815 crash site) designed to test Locke and possibly James (although, not sure if the Others/Ben really banked on Locke recruiting James to do the deed), to see if he would kill his father. Exactly why this "test" was important and what it was "for", I am not sure, but I think it was a test. I think the real Anthony is eating island-grown chicken and pineapple somewhere in air-conditioned comfort. I just can't believe that Anthony is not really an Other and a highly-placed one at that. All my theories about LOST basically depend on that belief, so I refuse to shed it yet *lol*.

I'm with you, I think he is alive. Either this whole thing was an elaborately staged (understatement of the millennium!) test of Locke and possibly of James, OR it was designed to "help" Locke overcome his physic prison by feeling empowered that he had participated in removing Anthony from the face of this earth and thus triumphing over him once and for all. Either way, I think Anthony is alive and has both of his own kidneys, too.

"Don't believe them! They're pretending!" - Walt -

I think that he is really dead and agree that any other outcome will cast a shadow on the powerful struggle between James and he. I do think he will show up in flashbacks though....

Clone or not, I think he's dead, or at least he will be before he gets to Ben. Even if he just passed out from the choking, which I doubt, he's going to die of oxygen deprivation bundled up like that.
One thing that I noticed was he seemed to have a bit of a "twang" in his voice, a dialect that I didn't previously associate with Cooper. It was weird. It bothered me the whole episode. :undecide:
The theories generated on this board are fascinating, aren't they?

what if cooper was played by some sort of ancient island entity and ben knew that of course? therefore the warning: "be careful it bites". god knows, how this "box" works.

or as EIGHT stated in another thread

----------------------------------------
1- Cooper was manifested by smokey.
2- Smokey interpreted Cooper in extremes -- extreme accent, extreme smugness, extreme evil
3- Smokey also interpreted Yemi as extremely wrathful like God
----------------------------------------

maybe thats also the reason for that some people here on the board think they heard smokey cricket sounds in the Others camp.

If he actually died, then it poses severe problems for the conclusion I came to a few episodes ago: that Locke & Cooper-Seward-Sawyer-"Dad" have been working together for years. It's the only way to have done Locke's "paralysis", and if you review scenes of them together, you can see their acting and their efforts to make sure they were visible. That leaves me with a few possibilities to explain the "death" (or death) of "Dad":

Locke double-crossed him, and he really died.
He died willingly.
Sawyer was in on the fakery.
Some trick with the chain he was strangled with.#1 I doubt because I think "Dad" would've put up more fuss. #2 doesn't seem like Lost's style, where appearances of suicide missions are turning out to conceal trickery.

#3 is troublesome because I'm running out of witnesses to be conned, although it's certainly inviting because both Sawyers were known con artists. Who was to have been the witness to this one? Video? Someone listening outside?

Therefore I consider #4 most likely.

Robert

If he actually died, then it poses severe problems for the conclusion I came to a few episodes ago: that Locke & Cooper-Seward-Sawyer-"Dad" have been working together for years. It's the only way to have done Locke's "paralysis", and if you review scenes of them together, you can see their acting and their efforts to make sure they were visible. That leaves me with a few possibilities to explain the "death" (or death) of "Dad":...Therefore I consider #4 most likely.

Robert


Generally, when dealing with any kind of logic (and yes, logic can still be applied to this show), when new evidence arises that conflicts with your assumption, you need to re-evaluate your ASSUMPTION, not try to conjecture as to what unknown facts might support your old assumption.

He's dead. This fact should put a rest to the theory you are referring to, a theory that didn't really have any facts to support it in the first place.

I'm all for crazy theorizing, but come on folks. Let's at least base them on the facts that have been presented, not on PURE conjecture. Only one person who has "died" on the island has "come back to life." The other 6 or so deaths have stayed dead. Reasonable conclusion? Mikhail wasn't dead.

And all this business about clones and stuff like that? Its all completely unfounded. I just do'nt get how with all the cool hints and clever easter eggs TPTB have given us, people find the need to completely make stuff up.

So, to sum up, Cooper is dead. He's going to stay dead. Because that's what every piece of evidence points to. And as noted numerous times above, if he was still alive, that would make the entire episode 100% completely pointless.

... Thirdly, some people are saying it wasn't coops, it was the smoke monster. Once again, anti-climax if that's the case because I think the audience wants coops dead, and we're going all around the houses if it wasn't even real. It would make for bad story telling.

But - we'll see.
I think this is based on Cooper's uncharacteristically reckless behavior (taunting James and tearing up the note). But, that could probably be explained by the fact that Cooper thought he was already in Hell, so what did he have to lose?

However, I also noticed Cooper's eye twitching after he was supposedly dead. Normally I would put that down to a tiny production error. But that's what I thought when Mikhail appeared to be breathing after being "killed" by the sonic fence, and of course, it turned out not to be a production error, since Mikhail wasn't really dead.

Also: there was a massively gasp-inducing reveal when James, believing that he was locked up with Ben, pulled the canvas shroud back to find it was actually Cooper. That same shroud is covering the body that Locke is carrying.

Should we expect another "reveal" when that shroud is pulled back? I would totally freak if it turns out to be Ben.

He certainly looked stiff enough when Locke picked up that body bag. I think the big question is how Ben and the Others are going to react to a murder that they were betting would never happen. I don't believe Ben thought Locke would do it.

I think the big question is how Ben and the Others are going to react to a murder that they were betting would never happen. I don't believe Ben thought Locke would do it.I think Ben was in on giving Locke the file on Sawyer. The whole series this season has so rigidly fit the "Everything's a Con by Ben" Mold, that I would be shocked to find they've actually deviated from that formula for once...

I don't believe Cooper is dead .I believe he is alive and well off-island and he is a manifestation of the island's power such as Eko saw his brother.

While I doubt we will see him again, I'm not sure Locke really dealt with his issuses... He wimped out on killing him directly as Ben ordered.

F

He's dead. I heard his neck snap.

I think Locke will open the bag and it will be someone else and Cooper will magically be gone.

Yessssssssssssssssssss! Brace yourselves: I don't even think that WAS the real Cooper! I think that was a Dharma-eugenics-whipped-up clone or something (I know, I know, it sounds far-fetched, but then so does Mikhail being alive and there being bodies of our LOSTaways found in the faux Flight 815 crash site) designed to test Locke and possibly James (although, not sure if the Others/Ben really banked on Locke recruiting James to do the deed), to see if he would kill his father. Exactly why this "test" was important and what it was "for", I am not sure, but I think it was a test. I think the real Anthony is eating island-grown chicken and pineapple somewhere in air-conditioned comfort. I just can't believe that Anthony is not really an Other and a highly-placed one at that. All my theories about LOST basically depend on that belief, so I refuse to shed it yet *lol*.

I'm with you, I think he is alive. Either this whole thing was an elaborately staged (understatement of the millennium!) test of Locke and possibly of James, OR it was designed to "help" Locke overcome his physic prison by feeling empowered that he had participated in removing Anthony from the face of this earth and thus triumphing over him once and for all. Either way, I think Anthony is alive and has both of his own kidneys, too.

"Don't believe them! They're pretending!" - Walt -
I think the same, far fetched but a clone could be possible.

Anybody else think it was funny that the whole scene reeked of Return of the Jedi when Leia killing Jabba by swinging a chain around his neck?
yes :)

and I'm pretty sure he's dead. It's not like Mikhail; you can't pretend to be dead when you're being strangled and the island can't bring people back to life. To be honest I thought Mikhail's return was a bit far-fetched but if Cooper hasn't really popped his clogs then there better be a damn good reason, and "smoke monster smoke monster" wouldn't be enough.

And all this business about clones and stuff like that? Its all completely unfounded.
I don't think so. I know it sounds way out there/far-fetched, I cannot deny that. Yet we have had many clues throughout the series that one of the Dharma Initiative's experimental programs is in "eugenics". And we know for sure that they are way fascinated with reproduction and that Locke's momma said he was "immaculately conceived", which leads me, when combined with a lot of other things about Locke's story, to believe that he is the result and subject of early Dharma Initiative reproductive experimentation and that they have been following him, monitoring him, and very, very possibly "testing" him for his entire life.

As far as the clones/doubles thing, I didn't really want to think along those lines either until recently with Mikhail, and even that just made me want to conclude as you did, okay, the guy obviously didn't die from the fence incident as we thought he did. But then the thing that put it over the top for me happened: the plane was found with all the bodies in it? As in, identifiable bodies? How did the Others stage that? I understand the why of it: they don't want the outside world searching for the LOSTaways because, as Locke said, "We were all brought here for a reason". They were brought there for reasons known only to the Others, and said Others do NOT want anyone from the outside searching for them. Okay, fine. But what doesn't seem to make sense is the HOW of it: how did they stage it so that all the bodies were found? I'm thinking they had to have whipped themselves up a fresh batch of clones and then killed them. Again, totally with you that it sounds far-fetched...but "completely unfounded"? I don't think so. I think we are dealing with a very Boys-From-Brazil type of thaaaang here, folks. Or at least, it ain't beyond the realm of speculation.

I'm going to use LOST against you haha.

But what doesn't seem to make sense is the HOW of it: how did they stage it so that all the bodies were found?

Jacob said he would take care of it himself!

...Unless of course you don't have faith in...him...

Jacob said he would take care of it himself!

...Unless of course you don't have faith in...him...
:rotflmao2:

Gawd, Jacob, don't get me started on HIM! ;) :biggrin:

That is a whole 'nother topic!

I don't think so. I know it sounds way out there/far-fetched, I cannot deny that. Yet we have had many clues throughout the series that one of the Dharma Initiative's experimental programs is in "eugenics".

Eugenics doesn't imply cloning in any way. Genetic engineering and cloning aren't one in the same, so this doesn't really hint at any cloning.

And we know for sure that they are way fascinated with reproduction and that Locke's momma said he was "immaculately conceived."

She also said that Cooper told her to say this. I mean, Locke couldn't have been both "imaculately conceived" AND Coopers son. Its been made pretty clear since that one isolated comment that it was all part of Coopers plan to steal Locke's kidney.

But then the thing that put it over the top for me happened: the plane was found with all the bodies in it? As in, identifiable bodies?...But what doesn't seem to make sense is the HOW of it: how did they stage it so that all the bodies were found?

Who said the bodies were identified or identifiable? There are threads and threads with lots of different very straightforward explanations of the crash that they found and how it could have been faked. The simplest answer being, if they find a plane 4 miles deep in the ocean, they aren't going to pull up the bodies and test them. Why would they? They don't suspect a crime. They would declare the crash a grave site and leave the bodies there. Then there is all the time related explanations which I don't buy, but that have some grounding considering a character has already time traveled on the show. But no one has ever mentioned clones...

I'm thinking they had to have whipped themselves up a fresh batch of clones and then killed them...Or at least, it ain't beyond the realm of speculation.

See, I get HOW you think clones are being used in the show. I just don't get WHY. There has never been anything solid that hints at clones. Beyond the realm of speculation? Of course not. Very little is beyond the realm of speculation. But it is beyond the realm of logic, based on the facts presented to us on the show. TPTB have created a show with an underlying mystery that they are revealing little by little. Yet, after almost three full seasons, you can only give me two very isolated pieces of evidence that even remotely suggest anything about cloning, and its debatable if they even do that.

We're all speculating here. But there is a difference between rational speculation based on the entire body of facts, and creative invention based on a very small selection from the facts. I think you are doing the latter.

Besides, in the end, it just makes no sense that the Others would be so wrapped up in their fertility problem if they were able to clone people. If they are willing and able to clone, surely they'd be willing to grow test tube babies.

I just don't see any reason to think that Cooper was a clone. Or that Locke is a clone (of who anyway?)

... I just don't see any reason to think that Cooper was a clone. Or that Locke is a clone (of who anyway?)

Thanks! Saved me some time there with that post bud :cool:

Again, I think the show must seem so different to each person! I can't believe half the stuff people come out with, it's like they're watching different events

I mean, Locke couldn't have been both "imaculately conceived" AND Coopers son. Its been made pretty clear since that one isolated comment that it was all part of Coopers plan to steal Locke's kidney.
Locke most certainly could have been a very early "test tube baby" of some sort. He could be the product of Anthony's sperm but developed completely extra-vitro instead of en-vitro, or at least conceived extra-vitro, which could be what his slightly bats (or so she pretended to be--who knows if she really was or really wasn't) mother was referring to by saying that he was "immaculately conceived".

As for the kidney operation, I still maintain with every fiber of my being that the operation that Locke was subjected to had nothing to do with a kidney transplant. They did SOMETHING to Locke, but it wasn't transferring his kidney into Cooper, imho.

btw, you are right: Eugenics does not imply cloning, it refers to genetic engineering and usually implies a sinister side of it such genetic engineering for the purpose of creating/developing a "master race". However, my point is that cloning is sort of within the same constellation of experimentation that the Others seem involved with: avante garde reproduction experiments, eugenics, "life extension", all sort of cutting edge science to do with life itself.

edited to add: I am NOT wedded to the cloning thing, mind you...it could just as easily be part of their "life extension" program as to why we have Mikhail fit as a fiddle, and who knows if the on-island Cooper and Eko's bro, etc., were all manifestations of "Smokie" or whatever (remote image projection or whatEV...although usually holograms don't BITE and can't be petted like Kate's horse, but it could all somehow be some sort of VERY sophisticated smoke and mirrors/virtual reality)...yet the bodies in the plane that were discovered by the outside world, that is what I can't get past. To me (and no, this was not spelled out unambiguously, but to ME) it sounded like they identified the bodies. This is why I'm considering the cloning thing as one of the many and varied things the Others are into (not sure how they have time for their book club with all that they do!). Because, just SAY that Kate's horse, Jack's Dad, Eko's bro, maybe even Cooper, etc. are all sophisticated virtual realities of some sort, how could the Others pull off that sort of smoke and mirror show OFF the island, at the faux crash site? It seems that their laser light show (if that is what some of the stuff the LOSTaways experience is) is all manipulated from on the island and limited to the island...doesn't it? So, that is why cloning was running round my brain...but I'm certainly open to there being some other explanation for the bodies. Bring it on...

edited to add:
I just don't see any reason to think that Cooper was a clone. Or that Locke is a clone (of who anyway?)
Who said Locke is a clone? I don't think Locke is a clone. But I do think he is the result of some sort of reproductive experiment.

I think Locke will open the bag and it will be someone else and Cooper will magically be gone.

Thats what I think will be the case too-there are no absolutes with the show. I am still waiting for Nikki & Paulo to resurface too.

He certainly looked stiff enough when Locke picked up that body bag.
But we know they have a way to produce a "living stiff".

I had the suspicion that he was not dead, but really hope that TPTB don't run that course, for some reason it feels "cliche" by Lost standards.