So this guy never ages? If we take the orientation videos for true, then Dharma was there circa 1980, which would me he would have to be at least 25 years older now since the purge, Add to that the time between Ben meeting him as a child and the purge. Man I like that word, Purge.

It seems like it...
strange huh?

Maybe they have a good plastic surgeon on the island ?

The other thing I wonder about him (just occurred to me now) - if he really is a 'native' of the island, as he seems to be, then had he never been off the island before they got access to the Dharma sub and whatnot? Since we certainly see plenty of him in the outside world in Juliet's flashbacks. Interesting.

(and are all the natives born with eyeliner? LOL)

So I guess the 'natives' brought Juliet to solve their fertility problems. Maybe they age but very, very slowly... Maybe that would explain the 70-year old womb in the body of a 20 year old (or would appear to be 20 years old). Seems to be a 'native' thing since Ben obviously aged fine. Maybe you had to be born on the island to age slowly?

They obviously have access to the outside world. I wonder who else is a native out there. Would Charles Widmore be a native?? How about Sun's dad??

They obviously have access to the outside world. I wonder who else is a native out there. Would Charles Widmore be a native?? How about Sun's dad??

They Don't obviously, I mean they could just start to go off Island after The purge. But I like the idea of either widmore or Paik being a native. About the aging, I think it might start the moment you get to the island. Maybe Tom was the captain of the Black Rock, lol. He sure does have that hardened Sea Captain look.

Maybe Tom was the captain of the Black Rock, lol. He sure does have that hardened Sea Captain look. :lol: but how do you explain that Ben aged normally? I think you'd have to be born on the island.

he hasnt aged much now has he????

Is this an hint to time travel? To the healing properties of the island????Richard believes in the patience.....He is timeless he has to...

I know eh? He looks younger than Ben in the current timeline, yet he must be older. I'm sure that can't be a mistake, but I have no idea what it means. Totally weird.

if we go with the time travel thing that could be an explaination...but we can also go with the healing property of the island...which would not explain why Ben "grew up"

It must be time travel. In the "Ben as a kid" flashback, Richard had clearly been taking fashion tips from Captain Jack Sparrow. There's no other way to explain it -- he'd obviously been to 2004.

(KIDDING.)

Yeah, Alpert did seem the same age, but also quite attractive. :biggrin:

During his first convo with young Ben, I think he called Ben by name - but Ben never said it to him, right? Was Alpert singling him out? Did he send smokey to him in the form of his mother?

Well, Richard did seem to know Ben's name without him stating it, so I suppose time travel is a possibility. :shrug: Others have suggested that the natives age more slowly.

coarse.. Alex looks a lot older than 16... IMO how does that work

I think it has to do with some kind of philosophy that the natives follow and the island is a big part of it. Perhaps Jacob is the only one who has mastered this discipline, thus he may be very very old but still alive, and also has powers. I think Ben is keeping him trapped in that house with the dust around it. Whatever that dust was. Everything points really to the natives having powers. The whispers, the slow aging, the invisibility of Jacob.

His clothes looked very old. He actually looked like a swashbuckler

coarse.. Alex looks a lot older than 16... IMO how does that work

She does, but the actress playing her really is only 17 or 18. I think she just happens to have a mature look to her...

This was by far the most fascinating thing about tonights episode.

We really dont know anything about the hostiles. Maybe they don't age, Ben only became one of them when he was already an adult. Maybe you have to be born into it in order to not age? lol

This was by far the most fascinating thing about tonights episode.

His clothes looked very old. He actually looked like a swashbuckler
Seriously, I thought he raided the Pirates of the Caribbean wardrobe for that one. All he needed was Jack Sparrow's bandana. :D

I know, Richard doesn't seem to have aged at all. I'm sure that is no continuity error. Can't wait to hear an explaination for that one.

We were never told the name of person Ben met in the jungle when he was young or after they gased the Dharma folks. Maybe it was Alpert's brother or father (Jacob) he met in the jungle as a boy.

This episode wasn't exactly the best for aging/anti-aging characters. 20's-ish Ben looked a LOT like current day Ben... Same with Horace, he didn't age a day from Ben's birth 'til the Purge

Richard 30 years later.... didn't age. That is a bit odd. and why are they letting ben lead them?

It must be time travel. In the "Ben as a kid" flashback, Richard had clearly been taking fashion tips from Captain Jack Sparrow. There's no other way to explain it -- he'd obviously been to 2004.

(KIDDING.)


His wardrobe looked very much like something that sailors would have wore over a hundred years ago. Is it possible that they are the leftover inhabitants of the Black Rock?

It must be time travel. In the "Ben as a kid" flashback, Richard had clearly been taking fashion tips from Captain Jack Sparrow. There's no other way to explain it -- he'd obviously been to 2004.

(KIDDING.)

As soon as I read your post I thought of the Black Rock. Maybe Richard is an old Pirate? And I'm not kidding!:biggrin:

I want to know why too! who are these non-aging people? why did they let Ben become their leader? ahhh more questions! I'm not complaing though, we got a lot of answers in that ep.

This puzzled the crap out of me. It's now going in the big book of LOST questions.

That would be a funny shout out to Jack Sparrow of true.

I just watched it for the 2nd time tonite. Apparently Alpert is an native islander and it seems they have some really weird stuff going on... like not aging and tons of patience. They waited until Ben was roughly in his late 20's early 30's to perform the "purge". This MUST be the incident that has been referred to. Also in the time after the purge Alpert (and probably Ethan and who knows who else) hAs not aged a single lick.

Further more it is my opinion that these original inhabitants can traverse time and space at will. This would explain why alpert can go and get whoever from whatever time slot they please such as Juliet, Cooper, the video of Juliet's sister and of course the entire flight 815.

Please help flesh this one out. I think the vision is becoming clearer now.

they were extremely careful never to have the FB 'alpert' say his name.
i think this is important

I just watched it for the 2nd time tonite. Apparently Alpert is an native islander and it seems they have some really weird stuff going on... like not aging and tons of patience. They waited until Ben was roughly in his late 20's early 30's to perform the "purge". This MUST be the incident that has been referred to. Also in the time after the purge Alpert (and probably Ethan and who knows who else) hAs not aged a single lick.

Maybe Alpert and company are the pirates from the Black Rock and there is some kind of curse on them that they have to suffer for eternity.

Is it possible Ben hasn't aged since he joined the "hostiles"? He looked pretty much the same the day of the purge as he does now. But maybe that's just because it was Michael Emerson playing the part?

they were extremely careful never to have the FB 'alpert' say his name.
i think this is important

Hmmmm....interesting point. Your right.

They waited until Ben was roughly in his late 20's early 30's to perform the "purge". This MUST be the incident that has been referred to.

This doesn't make a lot of sense. How does the purge relate to The Swan station and the magnetic properties there?

I was hoping for some solid answer as to who the natives were, but the Dharma people claimed not to know. If they are descendants of the Black Rock crew who are immortal, how come they speak colloquial 21st century American English.

If being "at one" with the island means that you don't age, that could explain why the fact that they can't procreate doesn't bother Richard, while Ben, with his screwed up childhood and death of his Mom in childbirth (talk about Karma!), is obsessed with children and healthy babies being born on the island.

Cardie

There's something very odd about Alpert, that's for sure. When we first see him in Ben's flashback, he has longer hair and is wearing 18th century garb, but besides that is unchanged from the Alpert we see in the present day timeline of the show.

My first guess is he was a crewman on the Black Rock who somehow hasn't aged since being marooned on the Island, but how do you explain his modern American accent?

Alpert looked so good with his long hair and disheveled appearance. His "neat" look is kind of creepy.

I agree this aging thing is so interesting. I wonder if Tom was born on the island. So people must age, just much more slowly? I can't wait to find out in 2010...

For arguements sake let's say that Young Ben was 12 when he was in the jungle and met Young Pirate Looking Richard (did anyone take note of the classic 1860's flap holster) who was roughly 10 years older than Ben. When you figure Ben's present time age and throw 10 years more on it, Richard has aged about the same as Ben and perhaps uses Dharma Formula that keeps the grey out of the hair.

Of course, knowing the creators and the twists that they like, remember Ben's comment to Richard "do you still remember birthdays?" Maybe Richard is so old that he doesn't count them any more. But how old? The Black Rock old (remember the flap holster)? Older civilazation as in 4 toe statue old?

I thought the same thing - Wow he hasn't aged a bit! Actually he looks younger now! Must be some of the Dharma face products he's been using along with the Dhrama liquid eyeliner.

:lol: but how do you explain that Ben aged normally? I think you'd have to be born on the island.

Well, As a child your cells are growing, expanding. When you reach the 25-30 age, you simply decay. Perhaps Aging happens normally, but only up till you are a fully grown?
100%

If being "at one" with the island means that you don't age, that could explain why the fact that they can't procreate doesn't bother Richard, while Ben, with his screwed up childhood and death of his Mom in childbirth (talk about Karma!), is obsessed with children and healthy babies being born on the island.

Cardie

That would explain Ben's "you still remember birthdays line. But why is he leader of the others?

When you reach the 25-30 age, you simply decay.
Now there's a cheery thought :biggrin: . (You should take that one up over at the Elder's Board...) JK, Ahimsa!

The painting in Jacob's house looks a lot like a pekinese (?) dog, but it could also be a VERY old and hairy man. Could we be seeing a Dorian Gray type painting, and could this explain any of the age/looks discrepancies?

Yeah, I don't think he ages. The writers seem to have alluded to it in the beginning of the episode when Ben is looking at the wooden figure and Richard walks in. Ben says something like, "It's my birthday today...you do remember birthdays, don't you, Richard?"

He says it as if he's talking to a person to whom birthdays probably mean very little. Being 'ageless' probably gives Richard little reason to keep track of his birthday or even care after he's had so many, I'd imagine.

i have yet to read through all the threads and posts, but since it is mentioned here, i would like to ask a question..


are we all 100% on board with the idea of natives, and if so, are the hostile/natives we saw tonight all included?

Of course, knowing the creators and the twists that they like, remember Ben's comment to Richard "do you still remember birthdays?" Maybe Richard is so old that he doesn't count them any more. But how old? The Black Rock old (remember the flap holster)? Older civilazation as in 4 toe statue old?

Great point here.

The painting in Jacob's house looks a lot like a pekinese (?) dog, but it could also be a VERY old and hairy man. Could we be seeing a Dorian Gray type painting, and could this explain any of the age/looks discrepancies?


I thought that was a dog! I thought it was a Bulldog or a pug maybe? Durring the 1800's it was very popular for the Rich to have portraits of their dogs painted. I'm guessing the painting came off the black rock. Which could indicate that it was more than a ship bringing people to mine the island, unless the painting was the captains?

Richard's striking appearance alone made me think something was up. A little too perfect, maybe? I guessed before this episode that he didn't age much (if at all), but didn't have anything to back it up... so I was pretty excited to see him looking about the same age in Ben's flashback! :D (Especially after the earlier comment about remembering birthdays.)

Does this mean that the rest of his group (the 'hostiles') don't age either? And are those people still among the current Others?

That might also explain the fertility problems. If aging is very slow on the island (for people conceived and born there, presumably), then it seems like it would have an effect on how pregnancies progress. But Richard's group all had to come from somewhere...

The oldest other I can remember seeing is Amielia, from the book club. But Ben says he brought most of the people there so that might not mean much. I don't know if that island is a great place to retire though:eek:

The Alpert we're used to seeing is cleancut and tidy. I thought maybe that they just reversed that(long hair, etc.) so we would know right away that it was a different time period. But I'm not sure why they wouldn't just hire a younger actor to play his part if they really needed him to look younger. Good question for Gregg or a podcast.

we need to see how many toes he has.

Richard 30 years later.... didn't age. That is a bit odd. and why are they letting ben lead them?
The best questions so far! I can't figure out either question unless it goes back to time as far as Richard's concerned and maybe they let Ben think he's leading them because he's grounded in this present time. Could be there are several "Bens" scattered through time on the Island. :shrug:
They Don't obviously, I mean they could just start to go off Island after The purge. But I like the idea of either widmore or Paik being a native. About the aging, I think it might start the moment you get to the island. Maybe Tom was the captain of the Black Rock, lol. He sure does have that hardened Sea Captain look.
I like the idea that Paik and Widmore are native too and that they age when they leave the Island.
Love the comment about Tom. :biggrin:


Yeah, I don't think he ages. The writers seem to have alluded to it in the beginning of the episode when Ben is looking at the wooden figure and Richard walks in. Ben says something like, "It's my birthday today...you do remember birthdays, don't you, Richard?"

He says it as if he's talking to a person to whom birthdays probably mean very little. Being 'ageless' probably gives Richard little reason to keep track of his birthday or even care after he's had so many, I'd imagine.
That didn't register with me after I realized that Richard looks the same now as he did when Ben was a kid. Cool catch, goober745! :)

Odd how Ben always talks about how special he is because he was born on the island but all the other others were brought there, but at least Richard was there longer than him. Seems to me like Richard has been there a heck of a lot longer, but seems to treat Ben like the leader? Who else was with the "Hostiles"?

Like the parallel between the fusies calling them "others" and the Dharma folks calling them "hostiles". Just an aside.

when Ben is looking at the wooden figure and Richard walks in.

This is a critical scene. Note the juxtaposition of Richard and the doll when Richard first pops in -- the shot wasn't framed that way by accident.

it must be the air keeping his skin young

Posted this over at the Jacob thread, but it applies here too:

The man that found young Ben in the Jungle was Jacob, he looks like Richard because he's Richard's father. Jacob was the leader of the "hostiles", the original inhabitants of the island, who despised DHARMA and all of its technology.

After The Purge, Jacob's wife gave birth to Richard, at which point Ben realized he wasn't going to move up the ladder in his new society either; baby Richard would inherit Jacob's throne. So, Ben probably murdered Jacob and someone, somehow smuggled the baby out of the island or Ben wasn't capable of killing him and sent him away with someone he trusted (Tom? Mikhail?) to watch him like a hawk. Ben kept tabs on Richard and probably orchestrated his entire life.

He then began his power move telling everyone that baby Richard was dead and Jacob was heartbroken, didn't want to get out of his cabin, relayed instructions to him, and so on. The "hostiles" probably believed him for a while, but when people began getting too suspicious, Ben probably arranged for their demise.

Meanwhile, whatever DHARMA was doing on the island caused the increase in sperm production and death in pregnant women, so the tribe started to die out. This is when Ben decided to use DHARMA left over installations and bring outside researchers to fix the problem.

Ageless Richard was by far the most intriguing thing about this episode to me. I want to know about THAT, please!

His clothes looked very old. He actually looked like a swashbuckler

I think that's a big clue too....I'm wondering if Richard & Jacob both sailed the seven seas on the Black Rock.

;)

Brings new meaning to his line from "one of us"

"I know that six months sounds like an eternity but, you're gonna be amazed at how time flies once you're there."

Posted this over at the Jacob thread, but it applies here too:

The man that found young Ben in the Jungle was Jacob, he looks like Richard because he's Richard's father. Jacob was the leader of the "hostiles", the original inhabitants of the island, who despised DHARMA and all of its technology.

.

I thought of that as a possibility, but the man Ben met in the jungle didn't seem to age in the 10 or 15 years it took between that meeting and the Purge. Meanwhile they were very careful to show how Roger Linus had aged in those years.

Cardie

I think it's more plausible that the island is not only a healing place but also acts as some kind of fountain of youth for those who know how to tap into its powers.

I think the hostiles spoke modern English because Dharma taught it to them.

I think it's more plausible that the island is not only a healing place but also acts as some kind of fountain of youth for those who know how to tap into its powers.


I was also thinking there could be some sort of "fountain of youth" on the island and that was what the DI wanted and that the anti-DI faction wanted to protect. I don't really know if it is a literal fountain though.

it's because of what i've said since the beginning of season 3. the others are the smoke monster.

That would be a funny shout out to Jack Sparrow of true.

Especially considering the fact that Nestor Carbonell looks like he's constantly wearing eyeliner!

I was also thinking there could be some sort of "fountain of youth" on the island and that was what the DI wanted and that the anti-DI faction wanted to protect. I don't really know if it is a literal fountain though.

I going with him experimenting with the DI's life extension project, the Lost experience has an article about Joop the 105 year old orangatang, so maybe they took over the most interesting experiments after the purge.

I'm dying to see a Richard centric episode. He was a native so he might have lots and lots and lots of answers. Please, make it the first epi of next season!!!! (following shortly by Danielle...)

I going with him experimenting with the DI's life extension project, the Lost experience has an article about Joop the 105 year old orangatang, so maybe they took over the most interesting experiments after the purge.

If I remember right Joop wasn't that old, or at least that's what Rachel said. It seems like Dharma was trying to duplicate what the natives had on the island. Being able to live forever? Or at least since Magnus Hanso crashed the Black Rock into the island. It does seem like Richard Sparrow, excuse me, Alpert could be from the Black Rock, though it could also be that the Black Rock people were purged and the natives took their gear just like they took Dharma's barracks.

I don't think they were taking over any of Dharma's experiments, which is why most of the stations are not in use. Interesting that they left the Swan alone though.

I'm dying to see a Richard centric episode. He was a native so he might have lots and lots and lots of answers. Please, make it the first epi of next season!!!! (following shortly by Danielle...)


Me too...that has a lot of potential. TPTB could go way back for that one.

:)

Me too...that has a lot of potential. TPTB could go way, way, way back for that one.

:)


Yeah. I think next season is gonna be the 'hostiles' season. We are gonna explore the lives of these people before Dharma thru flashbacks from the very few remaining amonst the others.
How about a Jacob's flashback?...;)

Yeah. I think next season is gonna be the 'hostiles' season. We are gonna explore the lives of these people before Dharma thru flashbacks from the very few remaining amonst the others.
How about a Jacob's flashback?...;)


I have a strange feeling that both Richard & Jacob are connected and have been for a long time....

I can remember posting way back in season 1 about how cool a Black Rock flashback would be....now we may have two characters who were on board that ship. (I'm totally going by the types of clothing that "Ageless" Alpert & Jacob were wearing.)

Tons of cool potential here.... :)

Yes, I'd say that Nestor Carbonelli has a future with LOST, at least for the next season or two! :D

Can't wait for some INTERVIEWS with Mr. Mascara. . . .

I think TPTB were definitley hinting toward Alpert aging at a slower pace. His appearance in Ben's flashbacks and the reference about not remembering birthdays anymore kinda sealed it for me.

I wonder though, if Alpert leaves the island will he age at a normal rate until he returns to the island? Also, what is the ratio? How old is he really? Could he date back to the black rock? Maybe that's the origin of all of the natives?

His wardrobe looked very much like something that sailors would have wore over a hundred years ago. Is it possible that they are the leftover inhabitants of the Black Rock?

Nah, it was a hippie shirt from the last 60's, 70's. I have one in my closet that I got from a yard sale. Dont know why I bought it... must have been a constume party where I dressed up like a pirate.

Especially considering the fact that Nestor Carbonell looks like he's constantly wearing eyeliner!


Can we stop this annoying comment? The actor has incredibly plush eyebrows.


D/

If being born on the island is the key to longevity, then Richard probably wasn't on the Black Rock, right? But, just the same, he'd be really old even if he was the son of people aboard the Black Rock. It makes sense that the original inhabitants (or Black Rock spawn) didn't care about fertility since they lived so long. It would explain why someone (who said it?..Alpert) said that "Ben was obsessed with the fertility issues on the island" and wasn't exploring the real wonders of the island.

Or the thought that the hostiles were being used in Dharma experiments crossed my mind like a pp said. Maybe they were using the hostiles in the Life Extension Project and that is what made them sterile? Who knows.

This show is confusing.

Okay. Let's assume that Alpert was like 18-22 or something like that when he met Ben in the forst approx. 25-30 years ago, assuming that Ben was like 13 back then and is about 40 now. So, add 27 to that, and Alpert is placed along the 40's, but not yet 50. Kind of weird, because he looks like he's in his mid-30's. However, Nestor Carbonell is 40 years old, so it's not impossible, I guess. Maybe he just looks young for his age? :drowsy:

An earlier post in this thread said something to the effect that flashback Alpert seemed to know Ben's name without him telling him, but didn't he ask what his name was? Also, the ring of what seemed to be ashes around Jacob's house...any chance it's smokey?

I think it is possible that longevity is one of the promises the island has to offer; there are only a limited number of things that would cause people to go to so much effort to be on this island. But Ben does seem to refer to most of the "natives" dying. Perhaps not natural deaths, though.

Brings new meaning to his line from "one of us"

"I know that six months sounds like an eternity but, you're gonna be amazed at how time flies once you're there."
LOL, does seem like time would move a lot SLOWER if you were there forever, no?

I'm dying to see a Richard centric episode. He was a native so he might have lots and lots and lots of answers. Please, make it the first epi of next season!!!! (following shortly by Danielle...)
I would love to have the character stick around and to have his flashback. He seemed to have gained a lot more importance last night.

Guys, I don't think the purge happened that long ago, a decade at most, so Ben was probably in his late 30's/early 40's when it happened.

(and are all the natives born with eyeliner? LOL)


Don't forget perfectly waxed eyebrows!

So I guess everyone is in agreement that Alpert doesn't age or ages slowly because of some mysterious property of the island, and that it wasn't just the producers being lazy?

It would make sense that it was because of the island. The islands healing/regenerative properties would tie into defying age directly. But at least up until now, we haven't seen examples of anyone else not aging besides Alpert.

It's interesting because the "fountain of youth" was one of the projects of the Hanso foundation. Were they able to just find this island that held all the properties of life they wanted to research?
Perhaps all of the "natives" are really just escaped Dharma test-subjects. Alpert was a test-subject for the fountain of youth project.
Jacob (if not some kind of supernatural being/pirate ghost) is clearly some kind of science experiment gone wrong.

:lol: but how do you explain that Ben aged normally? I think you'd have to be born on the island.

How do you know Tom aged? Perhaps he was an older man at the start. If that group is composed of Black Rock survivors (which is possible, given Alpert's clothing when young Ben first sees him), then perhaps they stayed at the age they did when they arrived on-island.

Alpert's youthful apperance is due to his frequent application of Oil of Olay, for which he is the island's representative. His other endorsements include Maybelline (obviously), but he lost his L'Oréal contract due to adverse publicity caused by the purge, hence the short hair.

Everyone keeps talking about Alpert's attire when he first met Ben. Let's not forget the costumes the others wore when we first saw them. It was a misdirection for us (and the losties) to think that they were living like savages. Who would have thought that they were living in "suburbia" attending book clubs and such. Maybe this is similar.

I think that perhaps when they refer to the hostiles as the original inhabinants of the island, they don't neccessarily mean natives. More like the first people who discovered it. The hostiles were there first to tap into whatever powers were there, and along comes DHARMA and sets up camp and houses and act like it is theirs to study. The hostiles (Mittelos? Perhaps a rival research team) had to get rid of DHARMA.

Since the purge, the hostiles took over DHARMA's community, (c'mon it is pretty sweet, and it conveniently has the security fence, etc.) The reason Alpert hasn't aged may be because they (Mittelos?) were there first, and they had the opportunity to tap into certain properties of the island and the slow aging process is one of them and they're not sharing.

I'm sure I'm totally wrong about this and my many other alternate theories on the same subject. I also have one about time travel but that is impossible for me to justly put into words.

Everyone keeps talking about Alpert's attire when he first met Ben. Let's not forget the costumes the others wore when we first saw them. It was a misdirection for us (and the losties) to think that they were living like savages. Who would have thought that they were living in "suburbia" attending book clubs and such. Maybe this is similar.

Great observation! I never even thought of that. You maybe right but I'm still going with Alpert being on the Black Rock theory. Basicly because I think Alpert would make a Hot Pirate and I would like to see that in a future flashback!:biggrin:

I thought that was a dog! I thought it was a Bulldog or a pug maybe? Durring the 1800's it was very popular for the Rich to have portraits of their dogs painted. I'm guessing the painting came off the black rock. Which could indicate that it was more than a ship bringing people to mine the island, unless the painting was the captains?

I'm convinced it's Vincent.

I think if you remove Alpert's shoes, you will clearly see that he has but 4 toes....

I wonder though, if Alpert leaves the island will he age at a normal rate until he returns to the island? Also, what is the ratio? How old is he really? Could he date back to the black rock? Maybe that's the origin of all of the natives?

Didn't we see him off the island when Juliet was recruited?

perhaps he eats right and exercises?

Looks like everyone else is just assuming that the child, Ben Linus, is the same person as Benry. I think the contrary, that Ben Linus, like Henry Gale, is just another identity Benry has stolen. It's been pointed out that the child wore glasses for distant vision, while Benry wears glasses only for reading.

If you don't need time for a child to grow up, then the problem of the "Ageless Alpert" goes away. The real Ben Linus could still have been a child when the takeover took place, meaning the flashback represents a much more recent time than you think.

Probably they'll wait until the final season to show the body of the child Ben Linus lying with the other dead ones. Maybe it'll take Sayid to dig him up!

Robert

As usual, Suds, I don't know where to start, but this is as good a point as any; don't you think his dad would have noticed the slight growth spurt?

Did anyone else think that Roger seemed to have aged more quickly than anyone else? He looked like an old man at the time of the purge, while someone like Horace Goodspeed had not seemed to age as much. Anyone else notice?

Looks like everyone else is just assuming that the child, Ben Linus, is the same person as Benry. I think the contrary, that Ben Linus, like Henry Gale, is just another identity Benry has stolen. It's been pointed out that the child wore glasses for distant vision, while Benry wears glasses only for reading.



As a person ages, they gradually grow more far-sighted. I wore glasses for distance from age 11 and then didn't need them after I hit 40, but soon needed reading glasses.

Cardie

As a few people have mentioned, I would bet that Richard has 4 toes. This could also tie in with the lack of him aging as well.

According to some evolutionary biologists, aging is an evolved trait. Furthermore, the loss of a digit is an event that is highly significant when determining evolutionary relatedness. Since the island is so small, there could only be a limited number of natives, and any mutations have a good chance of reaching was is called 'fixation' (all members of a population have it).

With all that being said, my guess is that the island natives are a different species of humans, with a few big differences in genetics (4 toes, less effects of aging), and they've probably been there for a very long time (taught English by the people on the Black Rock?)

There, a prefectly scientific reason for two island mysteries.

... or there is a fountain of youth on the island that only he knows about, like in Tuck Everlasting :21:

Three questions.
1. Do the Others know that about him? or do they think he was recruited like most of them?
2. Why does he take order from Ben Workman?
3. Doesn't it annoy Ben to see himself grow old and weak, and see him stay the same as the day he met him? :rolleyes:

From what I thought following the episode, I thought this was more of a clue that on the island, time passes differently then in regards to the mainland. Or the ageless properties of the island makes it so cellular regeneration stays high.

http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=79124
Richard Alpert seems to be like Bruce Willis in The Sixth Sense. Well sort of... I'm on the fence between outright saying that Alpert is Jacob and just saying that he's a "magical being". (Lost really took us for a spin, didn't it?). I wish I could go back and watch all the scenes with Alpert in them, but it seems that he can only interact with one person at a time. Like when he recruits Juliet, I know Ethan was there but did the two men ever acknowledge each other's presence? For example, when Juliet is identifying her ex's body or when she drinks the drugged juice, I don't think Ethan ever acknowledges Richard's presence. Or in "The Brig", Locke is alone on the hill when Richard gives him the file on Sawyer. How convenient. When he's in the tent with Ben talking about the tape recorder, is anyone else there? He is often seen standing among the Others, but no public acknowledgement of him is ever made... nor does he talk to two people at once. He seems to be very influential for a selectively social wallflower. Did anyone notice the incredulance in Ben's voice when Locke told him he'd get Richard to take him to Jacob? "Why would he do that?" Maybe Richard Alpert can only be seen by those whom he wants to see him (Ben, Juliet, Locke...) There's definitely some weird stuff going on with him, not to mention the agelessness. WTF was that about? I don't know what it is, but something's "special" about Dr. Richard Alpert. He may be the man behind the curtain... I mean, he's the one who seems to be influencing island events by whispering (figuratively) in people's ears. He's the one who brings people to the Island. Do you think maybe Anthony Cooper wasn't on the island for weeks? That Richard actually went to get him then and there? Same thing for the video footage of Juliet's sister? Hmmmmm.....

So this guy never ages? If we take the orientation videos for true, then Dharma was there circa 1980, which would me he would have to be at least 25 years older now since the purge, Add to that the time between Ben meeting him as a child and the purge. Man I like that word, Purge.

...unless, of course, the "Hostile" Ben met when he was a boy was Alpert's FATHER, which would make Richard and Ben about the same age when the Purge occurred. It is wrong to assume that we were being show the same person (though clearly played by the same person).

There is SO MUCH we do not know yet...

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this before but.. at the beginning of the episode, when Richard and Ben are discussing about Ben's birthday... a very emblematic line has been chosen: Ben ironically says to Richard "Do you remember birthdays, don't you Richard?"
could this be this line a proof that Richard is much more "aged" than he appears to be?

Oh, its been mentioned.

good point

or umm it could be a comment on how long richard may have been on the island, away from civilization, mainland customs (e.g., birthdays)....

redbaron, that is a very interesting theory--the only flaw I can think of is that when both Alpert and Ethan are with Juliet, she's answering Alpert's questions, so wouldn't Ethan think that was odd? (I guess one would have to rewatch all his previous scenes.) And are only special people able to see him?

This would explain why Richard seems to be running things for the Hostiles yet defers to Ben. He probably can't physically do anything on his own and couldn't serve as a "group leader."

Cardie

When in doubt, simplify:

1.) The hostiles are simply Dharma rebels, who cannot return, and so scheme to overthrow Dharma, not only on the island, but at its base in Oregon.

2.) Richard is one of the leaders of the new rebel enterprise, but he is not chosen by Jacob.

3.) Ben shows up, and becomes the island leader by default because of Jacob's affinity for him.

4.) The aging thing could be true, but we have too little information.

5.) Jacob has been confined by Dharma, and is the spirit of the island. Jacob used Desmond to liberate him for one moment, and this resulted in the plane crash.

6.) At Jacob's core is the spirit of karma. He reads and kills those whose evil side outweighs their good side. Ben at one time was good, but has been corrupted by the rebels. Locke is now the island's leader...Jacob sees that Ben is a con, and Locke is the real thing. This is why Ben developed a tumor on his spine, and Locke can walk.

7.) So now there are three factions: The hostile rebels, the losties and Locke.

It seemed like the passing of time was kept pretty intentionally ambiguous in this epi, to keep us guessing.

There was a way that things felt very timeless.

Interesting idea. It is new to me, even though someone said it's been discussed before. Could Richard perhaps be a survivor still alive from the Black Rock shipwreck in 1881?

Yes, this comment did strike as both ironic and significant. Maybe Richard lost count of al the birthdays he's had. That's what is sounded to me.

Oh yeah I hadn't thought of that.... good connection!

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this before but.. at the beginning of the episode, when Richard and Ben are discussing about Ben's birthday... a very emblematic line has been chosen: Ben ironically says to Richard "Do you remember birthdays, don't you Richard?"
could this be this line a proof that Richard is much more "aged" than he appears to be?

Very good catch, I didn't think of that at all. But, it makes a lot of sense considering that we later saw him at Least 30 years prior looking the exact same age.

Looks like everyone else is just assuming that the child, Ben Linus, is the same person as Benry. I think the contrary, that Ben Linus, like Henry Gale, is just another identity Benry has stolen. It's been pointed out that the child wore glasses for distant vision, while Benry wears glasses only for reading.

If you don't need time for a child to grow up, then the problem of the "Ageless Alpert" goes away. The real Ben Linus could still have been a child when the takeover took place, meaning the flashback represents a much more recent time than you think.

Probably they'll wait until the final season to show the body of the child Ben Linus lying with the other dead ones. Maybe it'll take Sayid to dig him up!

Robert

Ok hear's the thing about your theory...

1. Why would Ben's dad and everyone else at Dharma who knew Ben not notice someone else was his son. Unless Ben is an exact twin of this kid everyone would know.

2. When has the flashbacks ever lied to us? Ever. So now we are to assume that flashbacks are lies. This is goig way to far with your theory.

3. How did Ben get to the island unnoticed and stay hidden from everyone else.

I think your theory just goes to overboard. Your expecting a memory to lie. It was Ben and for some reason Albert ages at a slower rate than Ben.

Another thought on birthdays. If they are all in fact dead then they would not be celebrating birthdays either.

So I guess the 'natives' brought Juliet to solve their fertility problems. Maybe they age but very, very slowly... Maybe that would explain the 70-year old womb in the body of a 20 year old (or would appear to be 20 years old). Seems to be a 'native' thing since Ben obviously aged fine. Maybe you had to be born on the island to age slowly?


That looks like the case to me.

I know, Richard doesn't seem to have aged at all. I'm sure that is no continuity error. Can't wait to hear an explaination for that one.

Can't be a continuity error... there's no reason that the person who met Ben had to be Alpert. They could h ave just used any anonymous "hostile". Alpert was shown for a reason.

Richard 30 years later.... didn't age. That is a bit odd. and why are they letting ben lead them?

Personally, I think that the "hostiles" worship Jacob, Ben learned that and pretended to be able to Hear him, so they started to follow his lead. However, since Ben had cancer they are starting to doubt whether her ever heard Jacob at all.

This doesn't make a lot of sense. How does the purge relate to The Swan station and the magnetic properties there?

Assuming that "the incident" and the "purge" are the same, then there could have been a Lot of people working at the Swan, but they were "purged" so DHARMA just sends one person at a time now.

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this before but.. at the beginning of the episode, when Richard and Ben are discussing about Ben's birthday... a very emblematic line has been chosen: Ben ironically says to Richard "Do you remember birthdays, don't you Richard?"
could this be this line a proof that Richard is much more "aged" than he appears to be?

I think he was making a reference to the Purge, which took place on Ben's birthday.
In other words he was saying:

"You do remember the day you slaughtered all those people, don't you, Richard?"

I believe this discussion about Richard's age is much ado about nothing. There is only so much the hair/makeup department can do to age/de-age people. I submit in evidence the bad wig Ben's father was wearing in the opening scene! No one is asking "Why was Ben's father wearing a bad wig" b/c we know the point hey were trying to convey. Wiling suspension of disbelief.

We accept the fact that Sayid does not appear to have aged significantly since the Gulf War so why put Richard under a microscope?

Some people age well. Foe example, Dick clark throughout the 70s, 80s, and into the 90s. The actor who plays Ben, Michael Emerson is 52 but I think he could pass for a man in his 30s.

When Richard met Ben he could be 20s/30s and he could now be 40s/50s.

So this guy never ages? If we take the orientation videos for true, then Dharma was there circa 1980, which would me he would have to be at least 25 years older now since the purge, Add to that the time between Ben meeting him as a child and the purge. Man I like that word, Purge.

I really don't agree with you all on this "ageless Richard" theory.

Richard looked younger to me in the flashbacks. He could have been in his 20s-30s. He could now be in his 40s-50s. Some people simply age well. Take Michael Emerson (Ben) for example. He is 52 but I think he could pass for a man in his 30s.

Sayid does not appear to have aged significantly since the end of the Gulf War but we give him a pass on this. Why? Willing suspension of disbelief.

There's only so much hair/makeup can do to age/de-age someone. Look at that bad wig Ben's father was wearing in the opening scene of "The Man Behind The Curtain". Is anyone wondering "Why was Ben's father wearing a bad wig?" Of course not.

I think he was making a reference to the Purge, which took place on Ben's birthday.
In other words he was saying:

"You do remember the day you slaughtered all those people, don't you, Richard?"



If that's the case then the line wasn't written well... "You do remember my birthday, don't you?" would have been a much clearer way to express what you're suggesting.

I believe this discussion about Richard's age is much ado about nothing. There is only so much the hair/makeup department can do to age/de-age people. I submit in evidence the bad wig Ben's father was wearing in the opening scene! No one is asking "Why was Ben's father wearing a bad wig" b/c we know the point hey were trying to convey. Wiling suspension of disbelief.

We accept the fact that Sayid does not appear to have aged significantly since the Gulf War so why put Richard under a microscope?


You know why? Because if de-aging someone was such an issue then there's no reason that it had to be Alpert in that scene. Ben, Ben's father, Sayid... all of these other examples Had to be in their flashbacks so whether the aging was done well or not, we accept because they Had to be there.

There was no reason they couldn't have gotten a different, generic "hostile" to do the scene with young Ben... for that reason, it seems like he was shown for a reason. And the fact that they did not cast an older actor orignally for the role of Alpert and make him look younger in this flashback, or cast a younger Alpert and make him look older during the "present time" on the island. The fact that they used the same guy and didn't try to age him At All looks like something important and a clue.

I really don't agree with you all on this "ageless Richard" theory.

Richard looked younger to me in the flashbacks. He could have been in his 20s-30s. He could now be in his 40s-50s. Some people simply age well. Take Michael Emerson (Ben) for example. He is 52 but I think he could pass for a man in his 30s.

Sayid does not appear to have aged significantly since the end of the Gulf War but we give him a pass on this. Why?

You know why? Because if de-aging someone was such an issue then there's no reason that it had to be Alpert in that scene. Ben, Ben's father, Sayid... all of these other examples Had to be in their flashbacks so whether the aging was done well or not, we accept because they Had to be there.

There was no reason they couldn't have gotten a different, generic "hostile" to do the scene with young Ben... for that reason, it seems like he was shown for a reason. And the fact that they did not cast an older actor orignally for the role of Alpert and make him look younger in this flashback, or cast a younger Alpert and make him look older during the "present time" on the island. The fact that they used the same guy and didn't try to age him At All looks like something important and a clue.

If that's the case then the line wasn't written well... "You do remember my birthday, don't you?" would have been a much clearer way to express what you're suggesting.

It's called a veiled reference.

You know why? Because if de-aging someone was such an issue then there's no reason that it had to be Alpert in that scene...

Just because we don't know the reason yet doesn't mean there isn't a reason.

There was no reason they couldn't have gotten a different, generic "hostile" to do the scene with young Ben... for that reason, it seems like he was shown for a reason.

I'm assuming he was. I never said he wasn't.

And the fact that they did not cast an older actor orignally for the role of Alpert and make him look younger in this flashback, or cast a younger Alpert and make him look older during the "present time" on the island. The fact that they used the same guy and didn't try to age him At All looks like something important and a clue.

You say they didn't try to make him look younger as if it were a fact. It's an opinion. To me, Richard did look younger in the flashbacks.

I think the line was actually meant as a reference to Ben's father, as in "You do remember birthdays, Richard?...unlike my father, who forgot all of mine."

I originally thought the quote was suggesting that Richard didn't have birthdays anymore, indicating that he wasn't aging at all, but I think I found proof to debunk that. The van and Roger were in open air where Ben left it. When Hurley found it, trees have grown all around it, meaning that life is moving on.

Just my two cents.

There was no reason they couldn't have gotten a different, generic "hostile" to do the scene with young Ben... for that reason, it seems like he was shown for a reason. And the fact that they did not cast an older actor orignally for the role of Alpert and make him look younger in this flashback, or cast a younger Alpert and make him look older during the "present time" on the island. The fact that they used the same guy and didn't try to age him At All looks like something important and a clue.

You say he didn't age as if it were a fact. It's an opinion. To me, Richard looked younger in the flashbacks. He could be 20s/30s-ish in the flashback and 40s/50s-ish now. Some people age well. I said as much in my post. If Sayid doesn't need to age significantly since the early 90s why do you require Richard to now look like a sack of laundry? There are people who are in their 50s but can pass for being in their 40s or even 30s. Richard had access to the outside world and, more specifically, the medical profession. If you don't accept the "preposterous" notion that he simply aged well then how about cosmetic surgery? I may be wrong on this ( I wish I was as sure as you seem to be) but to me this Richard's-Age concern is a non-issue.

I thought maybe Ben sees Richard as a father figure and that's why he said that line. Was it affection or a threat?

You say he didn't age as if it were a fact. It's an opinion.

No, I said they didn't try to age him at all. Not fact? Let's go through the list.

Grayed hair? Nope.
Added wrinkles? (like they did with Ben's father to show aging) Nope.
Does the actor move/speak in a manner to show that he is 30 years older now than he was when he first met Ben? (again, look at the changes in Ben's father) nope.

If he Was supposed to have aged 30 years, then they did the worst job Ever. Considering how long his hair was and how dirty he was, he actually looked Older when he first met Ben than he did decades later.

As you've pointed out, in every other case, they deliberately show something to make the actor look older/younger... wrinkles, wigs, new hairlines... but with Alpert, nothing. Seems like a clue to me.

I wonder if Richard Alpert has 4 toes?

I wonder if Richard Alpert has 4 toes?

I bet it's either him or Jacob.

It's called a veiled reference.



Yes, and saying "my birthday" instead of "birthdays" is a better one.



Just because we don't know the reason yet doesn't mean there isn't a reason.
I'm assuming he was. I never said he wasn't.


The reason seems pretty obvious since Alpert doesn't wrinkle or look old even after 30 years.

You say they didn't try to make him look younger as if it were a fact. It's an opinion. To me, Richard did look younger in the flashbacks.

To each their own, but the make-up was the same except for the dirt and the fact that his hair was longer when he firs met Ben.

Before:
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1287-442.html

After:
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1287-176.html

I mean, they didn't even Try.

Ageless Alpert was the big shocker for me in this episode -- even surpassing Jacob and Locke's seeming demise.

The natives are clearly super-human, or extra-human, or whatever. We've long suspected this to be the case with some of the Others. I think Ethan falls into this category, as well. It would explain his super-human strength from season 1 and his just... all around creepiness. Alpert has this facet, too. The way he stares at people when he talks to them, his still composure, reminds me a lot of Ethan.

But just in case the FB wasn't enough to convince us of Alpert Everlasting, TPTB gave Ben that line referencing Alpert perhaps being so old that he doesn't even celebrate his birthday anymore...

So, how old is he?

Well, since Ben borned in 1963 and he was probably 10 years old when he first met Richard, I would say that Richard has at least 55-60 years. There's no way Alpert looks like he is 55 years old. :rolleyes:

I agree that Alpert hasn't aged intentionally. I think the ridiculous wig on Jack in that one FB is all the evidence anyone needs.

But considering Ben's evident dwindling power, I thought the comment about birthdays may also have been in reference to Ben's birthday being the same day as the Purge. A snide crack to say "remember how we got here today, me". It's the anniversary of the Purge as well as Ben's birthday.

As usual, Suds, I don't know where to start, but this is as good a point as any; don't you think his dad would have noticed the slight growth spurt?
I hadn't noticed during the airing some of the clues indicating that that was still his father and that he did acknowledge him in practically so many words as his son. A student had phoned me twice during that part of the airing, distracting me:mad:. My review of the episode invalidates my former idea of identity theft at that time. I still think, however, that the amount of time other people seem to think has passed since the coup is more than I think. Seems to me they aged Richard Alpert in at least a token manner while Benry was growing up, and then they might've been making a little joke about birthdays because they couldn't age him much since then.

Ageless Alpert was the big shocker for me in this episode -- even surpassing Jacob and Locke's seeming demise.

The natives are clearly super-human, or extra-human, or whatever. We've long suspected this to be the case with some of the Others. I think Ethan falls into this category, as well. It would explain his super-human strength from season 1 and his just... all around creepiness.
That would be good. It would also go with Goodwin's having super speed, if some of the timing issues were to be taken seriously. But I haven't seen enough to persuade me yet.

Alpert has this facet, too. The way he stares at people when he talks to them, his still composure, reminds me a lot of Ethan.

But just in case the FB wasn't enough to convince us of Alpert Everlasting, TPTB gave Ben that line referencing Alpert perhaps being so old that he doesn't even celebrate his birthday anymore...
The line didn't exactly say that. It could've just as easily referred to the fact that Roger always "forgot" his son's birthday (he probably just didn't like to be reminded of it, because of Ben's mother's death), which vexed Benry, but that Alpert should remember it because it was the anniversary of their coup.

So, how old is he?
I think they could've kept those VW mini-buses operating a long time (no reason not to), and that Ben could've kept working with his father as a "work man" long after he reached maturity, so that the time that passed since the coup could've been as little as just over 3 years (or could've been much longer), and the time that passed before the coup could've been as little as 10 years but could've been much longer.

There was a brief shot of a map on a wall in the school. A screen shot, blown up, might help us if it references political boundaries or names that've changed recently.

Robert

I missed this the first time around but after watching it again when Ricahard goes into the tent to talk with Ben and get the cassette and Ben says "Today is my birthday", Richard just stares at him. Ben then says "don't you Remember birthdays RIchard?"

SOO I think then that it was Richard who met young Ben in the woods (even though he didn's say his name) - therefore he is not aging - not having birthdays anymore.

hey, that's a really interesting catch. I wasn't sure about the "ageless" theory but I'm more inclined to believe it now

About birthdays, i noticed that the only person wishing Ben a "happy" birthday are Annie and Alex.

If you find this interessting, maybe you want to have a look here:
http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=78825

I missed this the first time around but after watching it again when Ricahard goes into the tent to talk with Ben and get the cassette and Ben says "Today is my birthday", Richard just stares at him. Ben then says "don't you Remember birthdays RIchard?"

The episode took place on Ben's birthday, the anniversary of the Purge. I interpreted this line as Ben's saying, "You do remember the day you slaughtered all those people, don't you, Richard?"

SOO I think then that it was Richard who met young Ben in the woods (even though he didn's say his name) - therefore he is not aging - not having birthdays anymore.

I think it was Richard Ben met too but I think it's a bit of a leap to say he's not aging. I thought Richard looked younger in the flashback. I see him as 20s/30s-ish in the flashback and 40s/50s-ish now. There's a limit to how much hair/makeup can de-age an actor. Sayid does not appear to have aged much since the Gulf War but no one is theorizing that he does not age because we accept these limitations.

Some people age gracefully. Without additional evidence I have no reason to think that this isn't the simplest explanation for Richard. We must also remember that Richard had access to the outside world and modern medical procedures. Isn't it easier to conclude he may have had some cosmetic surgery than to leap to the extraordinary conclusion that he doesn't age?

Some people age gracefully.

Sure...but he's now, what, 30 years odd older and he just looks like he's had a haircut!. The birthday thing seems to suggest that Richard doesn't have to think too much about time ticking by.

Sure...but he's now, what, 30 years odd older and he just looks like he's had a haircut!. The birthday thing seems to suggest that Richard doesn't have to think too much about time ticking by.


Richard is definitely not just aging gracefully!! I think that's why they gave such a long shot to him taking his mask off just after a shot of Ben's face. To emphasize that Ben had aged a lot, but Richard relatively none.

Sure...but he's now, what, 30 years odd older and he just looks like he's had a haircut!. The birthday thing seems to suggest that Richard doesn't have to think too much about time ticking by.

And the reason you dismiss the possibility that he just didn't have cosmetic surgery is...?

Isn't it easier to conclude he may have had some cosmetic surgery than to leap to the extraordinary conclusion that he doesn't age?


Good point but people who have cosmetic surgery still celebrate their birthdays. I took Ben's line to mean that perhaps after say 200 years or more (if he is an original inhabitant or from the Black Rock) then maybe you stop counting your birthdays. (like yoda lol).


If you find this interessting, maybe you want to have a look here:
http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=78825


Thanks Indy - i was sure someone had brought this up but the search feature has been disabled!

Alpert is defintely ageless. Definitely. No attempt was made whatsoever to "de-age" him using make up. TPTB could have also hired a younger actor, a la Ben, and just had him say "hi I'm Richard" but they didn't. IMO TPTB kind of hit us over the head with this one, and I don't meant to be rude to anyone in particular, but it seems so in-your-face and blatant that I don't understand how you could disagree.

Another way to interpret this line could be connected to the fact that there have been no new births on the island in some time...therefore no birth days.

And the reason you dismiss the possibility that he just didn't have cosmetic surgery is...?


Because it's dumb. And because Dharma was into "Life Extension". Remember Joop?? This isn't the first time we're hearing about something like this.

Some people age gracefully. Without additional evidence I have no reason to think that this isn't the simplest explanation for Richard. We must also remember that Richard had access to the outside world and modern medical procedures. Isn't it easier to conclude he may have had some cosmetic surgery than to leap to the extraordinary conclusion that he doesn't age?
I tend to favor the "easier" or "more logical" explanations, but I can't agree that Richard has aged at a normal rate, even considering cosmetic surgery, makeup, whatever.

Notice that currently, Richard appears to be younger than Ben. Also notice that in the flashback, Ben was cast by A CHILD ACTOR. It's not a case of makeup on the actor or the fact that Richard could have had plastic surgery. It's a case of Richard should not have been a grown man at that time. He should have ALSO been a CHILD.

ETA: Richard not aging makes exactly the same amount of sense as Richard being 75 years old and having had a great deal of cosmetic surgery for some unknown reason while living on a whacked out, secret island.

Alpert is defintely ageless. Definitely.
Oh. Well...if you out it that way! :biggrin:
No attempt was made whatsoever to "de-age" him using make up. TPTB could have also hired a younger actor, a la Ben, and just had him say "hi I'm Richard" but they didn't.
And yet, to me, Richard seemed younger in the flashback. Like a hippie or something.
IMO TPTB kind of hit us over the head with this one, and I don't meant to be rude to anyone in particular, but it seems so in-your-face and blatant that I don't understand how you could disagree.

I don't know what more I can say to make you understand other than to rehash what I already said.

Correct me if I'm wrong but neither Ben nor Richard's current age have been established. Some say Richard looks younger than Ben. I don't agree with this but even if I did it wouldn't necessarily mean that he actually is younger than Ben. Ben could be an oldish-looking 30's while Richard could be a youngish-looking 50s. I therefore don't see a need to conclude that Richard is "definitely" ageless. I have no problem coming to the admittedly less exciting conclusion that he ages well and/or has had some work done.

I'm not saying I'm right. I won't use the word "definitely" but I don't see why my point of view is unreasonable (let alone incomprehensible) or any less valid than your own until we see futher evidence either way. A few weeks ago some people here were saying that Nikki and Paolo were "definitely" still alive, yeah? :)
100%
Because it's dumb.

The notion that a man ages gracefully and/or has had some work done on himself is "dumb" but the notion that he doesn't age isn't? ROTFL

And because Dharma was into "Life Extension".
It was? Don't you mean "hair" extension? Does this explain all the bad wigs we see on LOST? :) But seriously, which station was involved with life extension?

Remember Joop??

Actually i don't. I remember the Maine. I remember Pearl harbor.
What is Joop?

I'm not saying I'm right. I won't use the word "definitely" but I don't see why my point of view is unreasonable (let alone incomprehensible) or any less valid than your own...

Well, when you talk about being "reasonable" then we should stop and look at the situation with no preconceived notions. If we look at the facts without figuring into it whether we believe that "Lost" will/should delve into time travel and/or life extension then what do we see? We see Alpert looking the same through a 30 years span.

Now, you have said

And the reason you dismiss the possibility that he just didn't have cosmetic surgery is...?

and

I have no problem coming to the admittedly less exciting conclusion that he ages well and/or has had some work done.


But you know what? You Should have a problem coming to that conclusion. Why? Because you think that Richard Does look younger in the flashback...


And yet, to me, Richard seemed younger in the flashback. Like a hippie or something.



So, if he Does look younger to you honestly, then why are you ok with the "he ages well", or "plastic surgery" side of things? If your view is that he Does look older now, then I don't see why you're arguing both ways. "He does look older, but if he doesn't it's because he either ages gracefully or has had work done". That doesn't sound like someone is looking at the situation "reasonably". It sounds like someone using any possible reason they can think of besides the most apparent one because they don't want the show to go there.

Oh. Well...if you out it that way! :biggrin:

And yet, to me, Richard seemed younger in the flashback. Like a hippie or something.


I don't know what more I can say to make you understand other than to rehash what I already said.

Correct me if I'm wrong but neither Ben nor Richard's current age have been established. Some say Richard looks younger than Ben. I don't agree with this but even if I did it wouldn't necessarily mean that he actually is younger than Ben. Ben could be an oldish-looking 30's while Richard could be a youngish-looking 50s. I therefore don't see a need to conclude that Richard is "definitely" ageless. I have no problem coming to the admittedly less exciting conclusion that he ages well and/or has had some work done.

I'm not saying I'm right. I won't use the word "definitely" but I don't see why my point of view is unreasonable (let alone incomprehensible) or any less valid than your own until we see futher evidence either way. A few weeks ago some people here were saying that Nikki and Paolo were "definitely" still alive, yeah? :)
100%


The notion that a man ages gracefully and/or has had some work done on himself is "dumb" but the notion that he doesn't age isn't? ROTFL


It was? Don't you mean "hair" extension? Does this explain all the bad wigs we see on LOST? :) But seriously, which station was involved with life extension?



Actually i don't. I remember the Maine. I remember Pearl harbor.
What is Joop?


And Richard is 50 how? No guy in his 50's looks like that.

Richards age has to be in question for 2 main reasons.

1. TPTB could have picked any hostile to meet Ben but they purposly picked Richard.

2. They purposly picked Rcihard not a child to play him. The creaters NEVER just do anything. Everything is for a reason.


Also a side not Joop was the monkey who Dharma managed to make live until he/she was 100 years old. It's true, the poster is not making it up.

I'm not saying I'm right. I won't use the word "definitely" but I don't see why my point of view is unreasonable (let alone incomprehensible) or any less valid than your own until we see futher evidence either way. A few weeks ago some people here were saying that Nikki and Paolo were "definitely" still alive, yeah? :)

It seems to me that, if we want to use the Pikki-death analogy, it should go the other way. In Expose we saw Pikki be buried alive. Logical conclusion: They're dead. In TMBTC we saw Alpert 20 or 30 years in the past looking the same as he does today..Logical conclusion: Alpert has not aged in 20-30 years. I think your position is the one that tries to rationalize and explain away things we've clearly seen on the show.

I also want to ask, how would you explain it if Alpert does age normally; do you think that TPTB just made a mistake?? Do you think the make-up person was sick that day?? Did they forget to cast a young-Alpert?? Maybe the writers completely forgot this scene was a flashback and had Nestor Carbonell read the lines instead of young-Alpert?? Really what do you think happened?? We know that TPTB's attention to detail is enormous and no way would a huge mistake like this make it all the way thought post-production without being noticed and corrected.

Heh... one literary allusion I picked up on the second time I saw Richard in his tattered clothing was Peter Pan. Why? Cause in Neverland, nobody ever ages. And Richard's clothing resembles something Peter Pan might have had if he really had lived off an island without connection to the outside world (prior to Ben getting involved with the natives).

I think maybe this might have been intentional... Peter Pan = he never ages. Richard = he never ages. Peter Pan = Richard. But maybe the reason why there are no births on the island because the original native women of the island have died and they're the only ones who could birth children there (if they're concieved on the island of course) and Richard and a few others maybe the only remains of the natives and they can't have babies, but they don't age either. So that's the trade off.

lol... I'm being metaphorical with this of course. I don't really think the show will devolve into Peter Pan territory... but hey, the Black Rock does it exist, doesn't it? Maybe Captain Hook's somewhere else on the island. ;)

The way I see it, they gave Richard long hair so the non-aging wouldn't be GLARINGLY obvious, NOT to make him "look younger."

Michael Emerson doesn't look anywhere near age 20, which is around the age I'm guessing he was meant to be in the "infiltration" flashback. And yet in that flashback, I immediately knew he was supposed to be playing a much younger Ben. Regardless of Emerson's real age, they did a decent job of making him look "younger." With Richard, it appears that they made NO such attempts. There was literally and visually NOTHING different about his face. They could have easily used makeup to smooth out his age lines and whatever, as they did with Ben, but they didn't.

I tend not to immediately subscribe to far fetched theories, but this one is just too "right there" to ignore. This show may not always have the best production values when it comes to continuity errors, but this one would be a mistake too blatant and egregious to overlook.

Heh... one literary allusion I picked up on the second time I saw Richard in his tattered clothing was Peter Pan. Why? Cause in Neverland, nobody ever ages. And Richard's clothing resembles something Peter Pan might have had if he really had lived off an island without connection to the outside world (prior to Ben getting involved with the natives).

I think maybe this might have been intentional... Peter Pan = he never ages. Richard = he never ages. Peter Pan = Richard. But maybe the reason why there are no births on the island because the original native women of the island have died and they're the only ones who could birth children there (if they're concieved on the island of course) and Richard and a few others maybe the only remains of the natives and they can't have babies, but they don't age either. So that's the trade off.

lol... I'm being metaphorical with this of course. I don't really think the show will devolve into Peter Pan territory... but hey, the Black Rock does it exist, doesn't it? Maybe Captain Hook's somewhere else on the island. ;)

The Peter Pan thing is interesting... I also doubt they'll go there, but maybe it wa sin the back of their minds w hile they filmed it.

The way I see it, they gave Richard long hair so the non-aging wouldn't be GLARINGLY obvious, NOT to make him "look younger."

Michael Emerson doesn't look anywhere near age 20, which is around the age I'm guessing he was meant to be in the "infiltration" flashback. And yet in that flashback, I immediately knew he was supposed to be playing a much younger Ben.

I think they did something with his hairline. He didn't look like a 20 year old true, but I also instantly knew he was supposed to be younger in that scene.

Remember the scene where "ageless Alpert" meets young Ben in the woods? He asked Ben what his name was, but did not reply "Hi, Ben, my name is Richard". In fact, we don't really know the man's name, just that he is obviously played by Nestor Carbonell, the actor who also plays Richard.

So, the simplest, non-supernatural explanation is not that Richard is ageless, but that the man in the woods wasn't Richard. But, if he looks just like Richard but isn't, then who is he? Well, if he looks just like Richard but is about 25 years older, he is most likely Richard's father.

Perhaps named, oh I don't know,
:eek2::eek2::eek2: Jacob Alpert? :eek2::eek2::eek2:


Of course, I have no idea if this is true, and for all I know the "ageless" theory is right. But this fits the facts that we do know, and doesn't involve the supernatural.

Remember the scene where "ageless Alpert" meets young Ben in the woods? He asked Ben what his name was, but did not reply "Hi, Ben, my name is Richard". In fact, we don't really know the man's name, just that he is obviously played by Nestor Carbonell, the actor who also plays Richard.

So, the simplest, non-supernatural explanation is not that Richard is ageless, but that the man in the woods wasn't Richard. But, if he looks just like Richard but isn't, then who is he? Well, if he looks just like Richard but is about 25 years older, he is most likely Richard's father.

Perhaps named, oh I don't know,
:eek2::eek2::eek2: Jacob Alpert? :eek2::eek2::eek2:


Of course, I have no idea if this is true, and for all I know the "ageless" theory is right. But this fits the facts that we do know, and doesn't involve the supernatural.

The only problem with that is that the math doesn't seem to work.

First we see Alpert when he meets Ben as a child.
Then, we see him again about 10 years later (looks the same age)
Then, we see him in present time (looks the same age)

So, who would he have met the second time during "the purge"? If it was the father then he should look older than he did the First time Ben met him, and it can't be the son because he may not be old enough yet.

It's good thinking, but seems off because of the math.

IMO TPTB kind of hit us over the head with this one, and I don't meant to be rude to anyone in particular, but it seems so in-your-face and blatant that I don't understand how you could disagree.
I've worn that shoe.

Did anyone catch the reference to not aging when Ben asked, "You do remember birthdays don't you Richard?" I thought that was an odd question until I saw Richard later on and noticed he hadn't aged.

Did anyone catch the reference to not aging when Ben asked, "You do remember birthdays don't you Richard?" I thought that was an odd question until I saw Richard later on and noticed he hadn't aged.

Good observation. You have a point.

Gregg Nations answered Remus' question about Alpert's age:

There's one thing that kind of struck me as odd though... Richard. What, he's older than Ben? He sure doesn't look it and Nestor is 11 years younger than Michael. How can this be? Is it intentional, an oversight or does Richard just age well?

I think the aging of Richard is not something that was forgotten about or a mistake. I think it may be an important thing to think about and see where that particular idea goes.

There you have it, Gregg can't be more specific without losing job!

Thanks Jenny :)

There you have it, Gregg can't be more specific without losing job!

The man deserves a raise... he posted more the last few days then I did all of last year (and I post a lot).

I can't believe that there are people on here who don't see that Richard does not age, the writers have made it bleedin' obvious with Ben's comment about him remembering birthday's. Richard has remained the same age at least since Ben was a boy and who knows how much longer?

Though sorry to disappoint, am watching that scene again and he certainly is not wearing a pirate costume! Just some loose fitting clothes.

Ok, this is random, but the birthday discussion reminded me of a previous birthday discussion on the show:

Rose: Don't pay him any mind, honey. He's just mad at the world because he forgot my birthday.
Bernard: I didn't forget. I don't even know what day of the week it is, Rose.
Rose: It's Saturday, Bernard.

(Thanks losthatch.com)

The similarities to the R/B conversation seem to inform (me anyway) that Richard and Ben had a very close relationship, one that should warrant Richard remembering Ben's birthday - particularly if Richard thinks he is important to Ben and Ben's birthday has been a long standing sore spot for him. The two have clearly been #1 and #2 for the Others for decades, and Richard clearly acted jealous/stunned/pissed that Locke was being taken to Jacob, or enough so to indicate that he knows he is being bumped down a rung. ...

Argh, where am I going with this? I'm getting confused. :undecide: All I'm saying is, to the person who's birthday it is, a person who thinks the other knows him/her intimately, remembering a birthday is critical. So, is it as simple a reason as not knowing the day of the week? Remember, Richard wears a watch....

***Mod edited*** the comment was nothing to do with Richard not remembering Ben's birthday. It was made to Richard in regard to the fact that it has been a long time since Richard had a birthday, "You remember birthdays don't you Richard?"

Ookayy.... I'm acting under the assumption that in any given conversation, there is more than one possible meaning, and certainly plentiful references to previous conversations. Words have a way of echoing and repeating themselves on this show, and that's one of the only other times birthdays have been mentioned. I think it's worth discussing, even if you (or others) don't.

Fountain of youth! That's where my head went during this epi and has stayed ever since.

To be honest, in any given conversation there is usually only one meaning, unless one person is deliberately misleading the other or has a low level of communication skills.

The words being spoken, the facial expression, the tone of voice and the body language all combine to ensure that the person who is being communicated to can understand fully what is being said. While the words alone may be mis-interpreted an effective communicator should not be, i would say Ben is an effective communicator so therefore meant exactly what was said to Richard "You remember birthdays don't you" in a half rhetorical half sarcastic tone and clearly indicates that there is an issue with Richard not having a birthday for quite some time.

To be honest, in any given conversation there is usually only one meaning, unless one person is deliberately misleading the other or has a low level of communication skills.

The words being spoken, the facial expression, the tone of voice and the body language all combine to ensure that the person who is being communicated to can understand fully what is being said. While the words alone may be mis-interpreted an effective communicator should not be, i would say Ben is an effective communicator so therefore meant exactly what was said to Richard "You remember birthdays don't you" in a half rhetorical half sarcastic tone and clearly indicates that there is an issue with Richard not having a birthday for quite some time.

While I agree with your interpretation of the line, I do think there is some room for interpretation. Yes, there is usually only one meaning in a "conversation", but in written dialogue on a television series there can be many meanings. Sometimes it's intentional, sometimes it's just the writer not being clear... either way I posed the question to gregg to see if he'll answer it next time he's on.

To be honest, in any given conversation there is usually only one meaning, unless one person is deliberately misleading the other or has a low level of communication skills.

The words being spoken, the facial expression, the tone of voice and the body language all combine to ensure that the person who is being communicated to can understand fully what is being said. While the words alone may be mis-interpreted an effective communicator should not be, i would say Ben is an effective communicator so therefore meant exactly what was said to Richard "You remember birthdays don't you" in a half rhetorical half sarcastic tone and clearly indicates that there is an issue with Richard not having a birthday for quite some time.
I meant on the show, not in real life.

Anyway, Ben's sarcastic tone could have meant that Richard forgets lots of things, birthdays among them. :shrug:

Actually, if you studied the nature of communication, and read up on psychology, you'd know that in any given conversation there are usually a lot more than one meaning.

I meant on the show, not in real life.

Anyway, Ben's sarcastic tone could have meant that Richard forgets lots of things, birthdays among them. :shrug:\

Now that is certainly an option based upon what he said and how he said it. They could have had a conversation previously about how Alpert is forgetful and that line would be an extension of it.

I still think it was about Alpert's age, but I agree that it could be interpretted that way.

I don't think Richard is "ageless". Since we can assume that the island is very ancient, I think Richard belongs to the island's indigenous ancient race of people, and that those people live very long, and therefore age very slowly. Note for example that all the people in the Bible before the flood have lifespans averaging around 800 years.

Either way, I don't quite get how the comment "you do remember birthdays, don't you?" fits in to it. I mean, you keep having birthdays whether you're aging or not... I thought it was an allusion back to the purge, since they did it on Ben's birthday.

lol ...unless he was saying "You're not one of those people who forgets birthdays, like my father, are you Richard??? 'Cause then I'd have to KILL YOU!!!"

I don't think Richard is "ageless". Since we can assume that the island is very ancient, I think Richard belongs to the island's indigenous ancient race of people, and that those people live very long, and therefore age very slowly. Note for example that all the people in the Bible before the flood have lifespans averaging around 800 years.

Either way, I don't quite get how the comment "you do remember birthdays, don't you?" fits in to it. I mean, you keep having birthdays whether you're aging or not... I thought it was an allusion back to the purge, since they did it on Ben's birthday.

lol ...unless he was saying "You're not one of those people who forgets birthdays, like my father, are you Richard??? 'Cause then I'd have to KILL YOU!!!"

LOL... that's certainly another way to see it.

But, if you never get any older, then why celebrate birthdays? What does it matter? If Alpert will indeed live forever and never age then maybe he chose to stop celebrating brithdays since they mean nothing to him.

There is still a good possibility that Richard isn't a 'native' to the island but was there before the DI with a different team

...
But considering Ben's evident dwindling power, I thought the comment about birthdays may also have been in reference to Ben's birthday being the same day as the Purge. A snide crack to say "remember how we got here today, me". It's the anniversary of the Purge as well as Ben's birthday.

Oooh!!! I didn't think of that, johnnyzoom! That would fit nicely too!
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lol ...unless he was saying "You're not one of those people who forgets birthdays, like my father, are you Richard??? 'Cause then I'd have to KILL YOU!!!"

::rotflmao2: So true!

In the Lost Experience video game, we discover that Dharma was conducting life extension experiments.

Discuss!

eom

There is still a good possibility that Richard isn't a 'native' to the island but was there before the DI with a different team


thats just it.

we don't know for sure is actually is native to the island.

Be aware guys... that Alpert worked for mittelos which is an anagram for "lost time". Perhaps this lost time is the time between alpert of the past and alpert of the present.

Maybe Dharma wasn't there to do experiments on the island, but experiments on the island's inhabitants. Perhaps Richard doesn't age because of some weird Dharma experiment. That would explain why the "hostiles" hated Dharma so much.

Well, when you talk about being "reasonable" then we should stop and look at the situation with no preconceived notions. If we look at the facts without figuring into it whether we believe that "Lost" will/should delve into time travel and/or life extension then what do we see? We see Alpert looking the same through a 30 years span.

No. You see that. That's your preconceived notion. I didn't see that. I said, to me, he looked younger when he met Ben.

But you know what? You Should have a problem coming to that conclusion. Why? Because you think that Richard Does look younger in the flashback...
So, if he Does look younger to you honestly, then why are you ok with the "he ages well", or "plastic surgery" side of things? If your view is that he Does look older now, then I don't see why you're arguing both ways. "He does look older, but if he doesn't it's because he either ages gracefully or has had work done". That doesn't sound like someone is looking at the situation "reasonably".
I don't follow you at all here. I said he looks younger in the flashback. Therefore he looks older now. He does have spots of gray in his hair doesn't he? When he first appeared in "Not in Portland" didn't some fans take note that he seemed to be wearing a lot of makeup? "Aging gracefully" does not mean "not aging at all"! LOL

As for my idea of aging gracefully being less reasonable than concluding someone has stopped aging...I don't know what to say. I guess we have different definitions of the word "reasonable".
It sounds like someone using any possible reasonthey can think of besides the most apparent one because they don't want the show to go there.
I don't want the show to go into the realm of a tribe of immortals? Why should I? What indication have we seen that this is even a possibility (aside from this Richard-looks-the-same-age-to-me issue). We didn't get into this discussion when we saw Sayid looking the same age back in the early 90s. Why is Richard being put under such scrutiny unless you want the show to go in a certain direction? And you talk to me about preconceived notions? heehee Stop projecting.;)
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And Richard is 50 how? No guy in his 50's looks like that.
You've just made a lot of men in their 50s very angry. :biggrin:
Back in the 70s 80s and into the 90s AMERICAN BANDSTAND host Dick Clark was always kidded for the fact that he never seemed to age. While in his 60s he could pass for a man in his 40s.
Richards age has to be in question for 2 main reasons.
It has to be in question no more than Sayid's age has to be in question. Why does Sayid look the same age now as he did in 1990? Simple: because the actor can't actually make himself younger. :)
Also a side not Joop was the monkey who Dharma managed to make live until he/she was 100 years old. It's true, the poster is not making it up.
I never said the poster made anything up. I just have no clue what he/she is talking about.
Am I watching the same show you are? When did this happen?
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It seems to me that, if we want to use the Pikki-death analogy, it should go the other way. In Expose we saw Pikki be buried alive. Logical conclusion: They're dead. In TMBTC we saw Alpert 20 or 30 years in the past looking the same as he does today..Logical conclusion: Alpert has not aged in 20-30 years.
"We" saw this? I'll assume you are using the royal "we" here because I did not see that. :) To me, Richard looked younger in the flashback I see him as maybe in his 20s there.
I also want to ask, how would you explain it if Alpert does age normally; do you think that TPTB just made a mistake?? Do you think the make-up person was sick that day??
I don't think they made any more of a mistake with young Richard than they did with a young Ben's father and his bad wig in the opening scene.:) Maybe they took some of the gray specks out of Richard's hair, gave him a hipper "do"...what more could they have done?
Did they forget to cast a young-Alpert?? No more than they forgot to cast a young Sayid in the Gulf War flashbacks.
We know that TPTB's attention to detail is enormous and no way would a huge mistake like this make it all the way thought post-production without being noticed and corrected.
"We" know this? Did you catch Jack's hairpiece in "Man of Science, Man of Faith"? Are you saying this was intentional? Hmm the "Bad Wig Theory" is looking better and better all the time.:biggrin: What about Desmond completley forgetting about the failsafe key and his beloved Dickens book when he fled the Swan in "Orientation"? Was that intentional too?
We don't see this scrupulous attention to detail that you do!
Oui! Oui!:biggrin:
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Gregg Nations answered Remus' question about Alpert's age:

Who is Gregg Nationss?

Either way, I don't quite get how the comment "you do remember birthdays, don't you?" fits in to it. I mean, you keep having birthdays whether you're aging or not... I thought it was an allusion back to the purge, since they did it on Ben's birthday.

I agree.

Even if I live forever I still want my cake once a year!

Don't know if this was brought up.... In "The Lord of the Rings", the elves (who lived in the forests) are ageless as well. They do age, but they age slowly, meaning they can live thousands upon thousands of years. If Richard is originally from the island, maybe he ages, but super slow????

I don't know if this is brought up but have we witnessed anyone other than Ben and Locke talking with Alpert? It would help debunk the sixth sense aspect to him.

The man deserves a raise... he posted more the last few days then I did all of last year (and I post a lot).

So where are all these posts? Can you give a link?
Thanks.

They are onthis website in the respective forum. "Cast and Crew">"Gregg Nations"

Great observation! I never even thought of that. You maybe right but I'm still going with Alpert being on the Black Rock theory. Basicly because I think Alpert would make a Hot Pirate and I would like to see that in a future flashback!:biggrin:
lol, I so agree with this!:biggrin:

I don't know if this is brought up but have we witnessed anyone other than Ben and Locke talking with Alpert? It would help debunk the sixth sense aspect to him.

Yep, when he recruited