I'm ready to punch Jack. Maybe Sayid will do it first. I guess it's all fine and well that he and Juliet have been cooking up a plan and didn't want to alarm our Losties, but come on . . .

I'm ready to punch Jack. Maybe Sayid will do it first. I guess it's all fine and well that he and Juliet have been cooking up a plan and didn't want to alarm our Losties, but come on . . .

As opposed to Sayid's secret...or Sawyers...everybody is keeping secrets on this island. At least Jack told everybody who Juliet was and they knew she was there. Sayid and folks were keeping a stranger to the rest of the losties secret from everybody...including the only two doctors on the beach.

cheers

Battle lines definitely seem to be being drawn.

May I point out that Juliet said she told all to Jack AFTER she saw Sun's baby on the sonograph? So how does this explain Jack's attitude toward the losties (and Juliet) PRIOR to this?

By the way, I are confused. Ben got Juliet's tape from The Staff. He recorded the reply to her and was going to send it back, I guess. But Locke intercepted it first--or someone gave it to him (NOT Ben, obviously). So how did Juliet know to tell James to play the other side of the tape? She never got a chance to retrieve it. So how'd she even know there'd be a reply? More of her steel nerve and taking a gamble, like she did at the tree with Sayid and James? What if Ben hadn't replied before the tape was taken? Did she think of that? Just a calculated risk?

Man, she sure takes this playing both sides against the middle seriously!

But Jack's attitude--yeah. Even if he talks his way out of this one, and takes Action Hero mode against the Others, I ain't just gonna fall in line. Most of these sheeple will, of course. Like Sun during that scene, it'll be like 'Jack's a wonderful guy. He'd never hurt us. So he's been a donkeyhole. He's STILL the wonderful leader whom we MUST follow, no questions asked.'

PLEASE tell me that this ain't gonna be the way Sayid and James are gonna see it. Give me THAT much, at least!

Oh, what's the use? Hero Jack will win over all, and there's NOTHING we can do about it!

As opposed to Sayid's secret...or Sawyers...everybody is keeping secrets on this island. At least Jack told everybody who Juliet was and they knew she was there. Sayid and folks were keeping a stranger to the rest of the losties secret from everybody...including the only two doctors on the beach.

cheers

Hey, what did Jack expect? He comes back with "one of them", isolates himself with her, cooks her special dinners and flirts with her.

Battle lines indeed!

I just wonder what happened to the old Jack who said "If we don't learn to live together, we're going to die alone".

All these sides and secrets is what's going to get people killed.

Yeah, I was kind of thinking, what if the Others had upped the date of their kidnapping mission? And he would've known about it and they could've been prepared but weren't. Also, did Ben say if Juliet couldn't get a result on Kate before the raid, that they would just nab her (her tent having been marked)? Then he would've really felt bad...Why can't they all just get alooong? *whiny voice*

We have to remember that Sayid and the others at the camp have witnessed less about Juliet than we the viewers have. We've seen Juliet's softer, more sympathetic side, and watched the flashbacks showing her anguish at being kept on the island.

Sayid and Sawyer and co know that the Others have killed, kidnapped, tortured and manipulated the Losties. And they've seen people compromised, have we forgotten Michael's murder of Libby and Ana Lucia so he could get his boy back? He was turned by the Others, and then Jack was acting especially weird since his return, insisting everyone trust Juliet and not ask for answers just because he said so. He's been hanging out mostly with her, and not really being all that forthcoming to the rest of the camp. Is it any wonder that Sayid and co had have doubts as to what's happened to Jack? Sayid saw him playing football with Tom, remember?

Jack's excuse for why he didn't tell the women asap about pregnancy being a death sentence, and the whole camp about the imminent Other invasion in a few days really didn't cut it.

Darn Jack... always needing something to fix.

I've never had anything against Jack until he brought Juliette back to the camp. I still have nothing against him, I just wish he would show the cards he's holding.

I don't know why the hate. Jack rules and all of his on-island storylines are fantastic.

I've always argued that Jack had a plan up his sleeve. I've posted that I don't believe he would deliberately betray the Losties. However, that does not excuse his poor handling of this recent situation. His need to control the flow of information helped acerbate the suspicions of his fellow beachies. I fully presume he'll come up with something that most of the camp people will accept in the next episode. However, I don't think Sayid and Desmond and Sawyer etc. were wrong to be suspicious of Jack's motives and recent behaviour. They were justified in being distrusting. And I don't excuse his only trusting Juliet with the critical information everyone needed to know since they have what a couple of days now to prepare for an armed raid on their camp? And when was he going to tell everyone unprotected sex might kill the women?

Shouldn't the women have a say on what they want to do about what's happening? After all, they are the ones most in danger.

For some people, Jack will always be wrong.
He is wrong when he refuses to take the leadership, and is wrong when he finally taked. He is wrong when he puts his life on the line to save his friends, and is wrong when he tries to get off the island to bring some help. He is wrong when he does what Sayid tells him to do, and he is wrong when he doesnt. He is wrong when he tries to talk with people and convince them to do what is the best, and he is wrong when he says nothing at all. He is wrong when he does share information, and he is wrong when he doesnt. Sayid did something wrong, blame Jack! Sawyer did something wrong, blame Jack! Kate did something wrong, oh yeah, blame Jack!
So, whats the point? For some people (should I say "the same some people"?) he is always wrong, no matter what. :undecide:

I don't believe it's true that the "same" people feel all these things. Many of us who have always liked Jack have only recently begun to question his actions. I myself didn't think he was so out of line until tonight. He was very smug and acted like he knew better than any one else how the impending invasion should be handled. That's just not right. Plus, not telling them right away could have easily back fired if, as someone else mentioned, Ben and Co. had decided to show up earlier than planned.

I kind of hope Jin gets a few licks in. His wife and unborn child could have been taken from him, possibly forever. He has every right to kick some Jack @ss!

I vote for Sayid as President and Sawyer as Vice. Who cares if the President's and ex-torturer and the vice is a murderer/conman. I tell ya I would take them ANYDAY over Jackie-boy. I wanted to punch his lights out. 'Because I didn't figure out what to do yet.' And what, he's trying to figure out what to do with JULIET, the MOLE that was sent in there!!! Juliet who wants badly to get back to her cancer -surviving sister and knows Ben as her only way off the island!!!! Way to go Jack! For his sake I hope Juliet is really what she says, but what she says she is changes every week, so WHO KNOWS!

Sayid and Sawyer should banish his tail to the jungle along with Juliet. I like Juliet but as long as she is stuck to that idiots hip I don't really appreciate her as much.

Sorry, did I rant too much :67hissy:

ETA: And Jack WOULD have been in deep you know what if Locke hadn't beat the crap out of Mikhail and forced Ben to take him to Jacob. So thank Locke for THAT!!!

ETA2: Has Jack ever been in the army? Does he have tactical and defense training? Does any leader, faced with the threat of an impending ATTACK, not defer to someone who KNOWS about such things??? Stupid stupid move on Jack's part not involving Sayid the MINUTE he found out they were coming. So stupid.

Actually that's a very good point. Ben was wanting to change the timetable and would have come upon the beach camp with it totally undefended and unprepared.

I have a really bad feeling about how this is all going to end. :(

I hope Danielle swoops in to save the day, with all that dynamite she ran off with last week.

I don't believe it's true that the "same" people feel all these things. Many of us who have always liked Jack have only recently begun to question his actions. I myself didn't think he was so out of line until tonight. He was very smug and acted like he knew better than any one else how the impending invasion should be handled. That's just not right. Plus, not telling them right away could have easily back fired if, as someone else mentioned, Ben and Co. had decided to show up earlier than planned.

I kind of hope Jin gets a few licks in. His wife and unborn child could have been taken from him, possibly forever. He has every right to kick some Jack @ss!

I'm still waiting for Jin to kick some Sawyer @ss for kidnapping Sun, scaring her to death in thinking it was the Others...all just to get the guns....:eek2:

I am really tired of Jack's attitude too. Who is HE to decide for the group? And like someone else said, whatever happened to "live together," etc.?

[quote ...critical information everyone needed to know since they have what a couple of days now to prepare for an armed raid on their camp? [/quote]
Exactly! What makes Jack think that all these decisions are up to HIM? I'm sure Jin would like a say in how to protect his wife. sheesh. that Jack, what a nuisance he's become.

And yeah, the women should have a say in all this...not just cuz they're the ones who could die from pregnancy but because this is the 21st century, after all! :)

What astounded me was Sayid's reaction. He said "Yet?" I hoped (actually I yelled at the tv at the time) he would have said something snarky like "What do you mean you havent figured out what to do yet? Who the hell do you think you are?" Jack seems so convinced that he is the only one that can come up with a decent plan. Maybe some input from the other people that will be involved?!?! Jack just p***es me off sometimes. (I still like him though, I just dont see from his point of view I guess.)

I am really tired of Jack's attitude too. Who is HE to decide for the group?

"Where's Jack?"

"Get Jack!"

"We need Jack!"

"Ask Jack."

"JAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK!!!"

"You need to make a decision" (about the water in WR)

"People are scared, they need someone to tell them what to do"

Locke's entire speech in WR that I don't have the time to look up at 3 am.

"Everyone wants me to be a leader until I make a decision they don't like."

So true.

ETA2: Has Jack ever been in the army? Does he have tactical and defense training? Does any leader, faced with the threat of an impending ATTACK, not defer to someone who KNOWS about such things??? Stupid stupid move on Jack's part not involving Sayid the MINUTE he found out they were coming. So stupid.

Yeah, cause look how well it all worked out for them the last time he defered to Sayid and listened to him instead of going with his instincts (to confront Michael and tell Kate, Hurley and Sawyer about him).

As for the women, Kate has been aware for a while that sex kills women on Mysoginy Island and she doesn't seem too concerned about her own life. So I'm assuming there's a huge stash of Dharma condoms and it's a nonissue just like their spotless armpits (Damon and Carlton mentioned that one)

I used to be so on the Jack bandwagon until his time at Otherville. He's been such a jerk ever since, with his "she's under my protection", "she doesn't have to answer that", "no don't tell Kate yet", "I hadn't figured out a plan yet".

He has jeopardized the rest of the Losties, created the rampant distrust that's dividing them, alienated his friends and generally been a smug jackash (intentional mispelling). In fact, that should be his new name... Jackash (intentional mispelling).

At this point, I would love nothing more than to see him be betrayed by Juliet in a double-double-cross. Isn't it amazing how the writers can manipulate us like this? Season 1, I despised Sawyer and loved Jack. Now it's the complete reverse!

At least Jack told everybody who Juliet was
Uh--excuse me?

"What the hell is SHE doing here?"

This was JACK who said that line?

There were three other people on that beach--James, Kate, and Sayid--who'd have volunteered info on who Juliet was (and probably did!) if Jack had said nothing.

Now, with the tape, and everyone keeping Naomi a secret because they deemed Jack untrustworthy, because he wasn't forthcoming, Jack's been CORNERED into talking! Really convenient that he's come up with a plan NOW, so he can DEIGN to 'play catchup' with these people.

Sheesh.

I'll echo lulinha_k in saying that Jack can never seem to do right in some peoples eyes.

He keeps a secret from them and he's endangering the lives of the losties.

Sayid,Desmond and co keep Naomi secret and it's Jacks fault because he's not trustworthy.

Jin should "get some licks in" at Jack because he endangered Sun and her baby.

Yet Sawyer and Charlie who assaulted her should what? Have a light slap on the wrist?

For the last few episodes people have come out with the "jack hate" because of his change in attitude. Some of us thought he had a plan. Others thought he was merely taken in by Juliet. But when it's revealed he did know about things all along and was formulating a plan then it seems to me like people need to find a new reason to moan at him.

"Everyone wants me to be a leader until I make a decision they don't like"

Never a truer word said. The guy cannot win for some people no matter what he does.

I am holding onto the idea that Jack has a very good reason to why he's been acting so utterly strange since he came back with Juliet. I have always loved the character of Jack and his flawed heroism, but lately I've almost been as annoyed as the Jack haters. :undecide:
I just hope his plan is revealed soon and it turns out to be ultra cool.

The way I see it, the writers are getting the desired reaction from fans. They really want us to suspect him because it fits with their master plan. We have no idea where this is going.. why not wait and see what the reveal is? If there's one thing that tires me of the fandom, it's the quick judgement and "hate" directed toward a character (any) that almost always flips the next week. Something is up with Jack, it is a means to create interest and dramatic tension- let the story unfold for pete's sake.

I'm ready to punch Jack. Maybe Sayid will do it first. I guess it's all fine and well that he and Juliet have been cooking up a plan and didn't want to alarm our Losties, but come on . . .

Somebody on TWoP dubbed Jack and Juliet "Prince Smug" and "Princess Smirk". That about covers it as far as I'm concerned. Arrogant beyond tolerance.

Jack is only revealing his plan now because he's been cornered into it. How long was he intending to wait? If Locke hadn't been at the Others' compound, Mikhail might have persuaded Ben to move up the timetable and the beach camp would have been taken unawares. They ALL had a right to know about the imminent attack on the camp, and to have input into forming a plan. That kind of secrecy has nothing to do with "leadership". That's ego, pure and simple, IMO. He has just as much of that as Ben does.

The way I see it, the writers are getting the desired reaction from fans. They really want us to suspect him because it fits with their master plan. We have no idea where this is going.. why not wait and see what the reveal is? If there's one thing that tires me of the fandom, it's the quick judgement and "hate" directed toward a character (any) that almost always flips the next week. Something is up with Jack, it is a means to create interest and dramatic tension- let the story unfold for pete's sake.True, but it hurts the show when characters perform actions that aren't within reason. This is the case for both Jack and Kate in these episodes. Either have the character talk to eachother or come up with a better excuse. Jack taking his time deciding while knowing that an attack will happen in a few days is not good enough. Same goes for Kate taking so long to inform people about the Medical Hatch.

The way I see it, the writers are getting the desired reaction from fans. They really want us to suspect him because it fits with their master plan. We have no idea where this is going.. why not wait and see what the reveal is? If there's one thing that tires me of the fandom, it's the quick judgement and "hate" directed toward a character (any) that almost always flips the next week. Something is up with Jack, it is a means to create interest and dramatic tension- let the story unfold for pete's sake.

Well said.

I'm not sure why certain people bother with the show if they hate the main protagonist that much, I know I wouldn't.

Jack's attitude did come off pretty smug...he may have isolated himself with Juliet a little too long.

99% of the time Jack is smug. It gets very irritating after a while.

I'll echo lulinha_k in saying that Jack can never seem to do right in some peoples eyes.

He keeps a secret from them and he's endangering the lives of the losties.

Sayid,Desmond and co keep Naomi secret and it's Jacks fault because he's not trustworthy.

Jin should "get some licks in" at Jack because he endangered Sun and her baby.

Yet Sawyer and Charlie who assaulted her should what? Have a light slap on the wrist?

For the last few episodes people have come out with the "jack hate" because of his change in attitude. Some of us thought he had a plan. Others thought he was merely taken in by Juliet. But when it's revealed he did know about things all along and was formulating a plan then it seems to me like people need to find a new reason to moan at him.

"Everyone wants me to be a leader until I make a decision they don't like"

Never a truer word said. The guy cannot win for some people no matter what he does.

I agree here with you Deadshot

But hey, no matter how other fans see it, I think "Smugness" is darn cute on Jack. LOL. More, more of any kind of Jack is good. We've only had snippets of Jack in the last few weeks. It's time for more Jack scenes. :biggrin: And looks like I'm going to be happy camper in the next two episodes.;)

The Jack bashing is getting a tad old to some folks. And as Gregg Nations has pointed out, it's pretty useless. Even Gregg seems to be getting a bit worn out by it. Someone posted a "hate Jack" post to Gregg the other day, and noticably, that was the only question Gregg didn't answer that day.

Jack's the flawed hero. But, the hero nonetheless. Bring out his big ole white hat. :biggrin:

I understand why the Losties would have some reservations about Jack because of Juliet. But as a fan, knowing the back stories of all these characters, something the island folk aren't privy too, and seeing Jack's consistent behavior on the island since Day 1, I know I'd trust a loyal guy who has always been looking out for the safety of these people first and foremost. Even if he might be keeping secrets. I'd trust Jack over a torturer of women (who is keeping secrets) and over a two time murderer with a fresh kill (who is keeping secrets himself). Shouldn't Sawyer be spilling some serious beans that Locke has gone to the dark side - because Locke knows everything there is about the Losties and their situation and is the biggest risk to them now. :eek2: ).

Also, the flimsy argument that Jack treats women poorly doesn't hold up when comparing him to Sawyer (who has traded needed medicine and supplies for personal laundry and feeding services for his own selfish interest (using mostly women to do this), kidnapped Sun on the island so he could get the guns, allowed Anna to get his gun, and conned women his whole life - leading to the destruction of their lives). And there there is Sayid who doesn't stop at torturing women. Sun and Kate sure don't seem to think that Jack treats women poorly. Nor would I guess Rose, Claire or Juliet would think that.

Luka,

Your post was right on the mark. Gosh everything that goes wrong on the island must always be Jack's fault:rolleyes: and how Jack treats people all the time must always be poor, and he has the worst 'tude ever DUDE. LOL. ;)

Can't wait to see Jack kick some Other butt in the finale.

If your perspective is that his is Smug or it is that he is Not-Smug, Jack Rocks!!

shoegirl

I just think that if Jack would have the sense to bring at least one person from 815 into his little thing with Juliet, it would have done a lot of good. Why is everyone assuming that just because one finds Jack smug that the belief is there that everything is Jack's fault?

Jack was busted last night, and rather than being the slightest bit contrite, he chooses to separate himself further from the group by asserting his paternalistic crap.

Again, live together, die alone?

TOGETHER = WORK TOGETHER.

You can't work together if you don't know what's going on!

I love Jack and the fact that he's barely appeared in the last few episodes yet garners so much attention and heated opinion tells me the writers must be doing their jobs.

I kind of got the impression last night that Jack was waiting to hear Ben's instructions before he told the camp, that he and Juliet had hiked off to the medical hatch to get the tape recorder that Juliet was expecting to be there with Ben's final instructions. Jack knows from personal experience that Ben is always watching and waiting, that the best way to spring a trap against him is to make everything appear normal. The best way to keep up that appearance is to keep everyone in the dark. Right or wrong, it's a decision he made and just like all the others that keep their secrets he had every right to keep his.


And when was he going to tell everyone unprotected sex might kill the women?



Why didn't Kate tell everyone? What about Sun?

Jack should thank his lucky stars Mikhail didn't get a chance to convince Ben to strike early? So I guess Desmond gets a free pass for allowing him to leave in the first place and we'll just conveniently pin the blame on Jack?

Jack is unfairly judged too often. The one character who has never hurt anyone, never done anything that wasn't with the best of intentions and whose goal since day one has been to keep the sheep safe gets bashed constantly, it's puzzling.

In my opinion, Jack was shown something or learned something during his time with the Others that has amped up his desire to get off the island about 150% and to make killing those lunatics his sole mission in life. I guess we'll find out.

I'm not a Jack fan and even I'm bored of the Jack bashing. Jacks playing his cards close to his chest, but so are most of the characters.

Time for the Lostees to SHARE...

Juliet = "I've been sending messages to Ben about which of you girls are pregnant so the Others can come in the night and kidnap yall. Don't be uspet."

Sawyer = "I've just been out to the Black Rock to kill Locke's daddy."

Desmond = "I knew about the parachutist because I'm a wee bit of a psychic."

Charlie = "The universe has been trying to kill me for weeks."

Sun = "I have only two months to live. It's official, girls - sex kills us."

Kate = "I can't keep my mouth shut or my legs closed."

Jack = "Juliet, the Other, is my best friend. We share everything and make secret plans together. But you guys are still, like, my second best friends."

Juliet = "By the way, according to our files Jack and Claire are brother and sister."

Hurley = "DUDES!!!!"

Naomi = "Errr...do you guys want to be rescued or what?"

I've always argued that Jack had a plan up his sleeve. I've posted that I don't believe he would deliberately betray the Losties. However, that does not excuse his poor handling of this recent situation. His need to control the flow of information helped acerbate the suspicions of his fellow beachies. I fully presume he'll come up with something that most of the camp people will accept in the next episode. However, I don't think Sayid and Desmond and Sawyer etc. were wrong to be suspicious of Jack's motives and recent behaviour. They were justified in being distrusting. And I don't excuse his only trusting Juliet with the critical information everyone needed to know since they have what a couple of days now to prepare for an armed raid on their camp? And when was he going to tell everyone unprotected sex might kill the women?


Very well said, the secrecy is definitely what brought the well deserved distrust on him. Now that his Eminence has deigned to reveal what he knows I imagine we'll see Sayid, Sawyer, and some others toss their input in on the plan, and then after that be ready and willing to play good soldier.

I'm not a Jack fan and even I'm bored of the Jack bashing. Jacks playing his cards close to his chest, but so are most of the characters.

Time for the Lostees to SHARE...

Juliet = "I've been sending messages to Ben about which of you girls are pregnant so the Others can come in the night and kidnap yall. Don't be uspet."

Sawyer = "I've just been out to the Black Rock to kill Locke's daddy."

Desmond = "I knew about the parachutist because I'm a wee bit of a psychic."

Charlie = "The universe has been trying to kill me for weeks."

Sun = "I have only two months to live. It's official, girls - sex kills us."

Kate = "I can't keep my mouth shut or my legs closed."

Jack = "Juliet, the Other, is my best friend. We share everything and make secret plans together. But you guys are still, like, my second best friends."

Juliet = "By the way, according to our files Jack and Claire are brother and sister."

Hurley = "DUDES!!!!"

Naomi = "Errr...do you guys want to be rescued or what?"


You are awesome... Seriously! :roflmao:
Only Claire is safe from the secret stuff! :redface:

OT: I have beein reading your posts about Charlie´s destiny, and I feel so much for you... I like Charlie so much, and I´m really hoping for the best... :hug:

Maybe Jack and Kate will accidently kill each other at the same time.

They've all been keeping secrets from each other. Why is Jack more culpable than the rest? He just found out about the planned attack, and went to the med hatch with Juliet to find out what the exact plans were. I think it was prudent of him to get more info before running off half cocked. He was not the one hiding a stranger IN THE CAMP who claims that a rescue ship is just off shore.

On a side note, how do we know that Jack hasn't had any training that would help with respect to planning an offensive? We know that he's dead-eye-dick with a gun and can fly a plane - he didn't learn that in medical school.

I, for one, love Jack and can't wait to see what he does next. Locke is my second favorite character. They are both very intriguing.

So how did Juliet know to tell James to play the other side of the tape? She never got a chance to retrieve it. So how'd she even know there'd be a reply?
Because it was part of the plan? She was probably supposed to "find" it at the Staff and give it to Jack but thinks James beat her to the punch. What she apparently doesn't know is that Ben is elsewhere on the island having a meltdown which could impact what she thinks is about to happen.


I myself didn't think he was so out of line until tonight. He was very smug and acted like he knew better than any one else how the impending invasion should be handled. That's just not right.
Actually, this has been pretty much in character from the time he ratted on his father at the medical board hearing. Sometimes it works. Kate and Sawyer escaped from Alcatraz.


I am holding onto the idea that Jack has a very good reason to why he's been acting so utterly strange since he came back with Juliet.
He does. He's letting little Jack do his thinking.

Some of you in this thread need to restrict you posts to Jack's smugness or lack of smugness in this episode. This thread is not about setting your fellow posters straight on a laundry list of grievances from episodes past. Please remember you are in the episode forum for The Man Behind the Curtain, not the Jack forum. You are also not in the "not into you section." You can expect to find people here with differing opinions.

Thanks, shootfire. In the context of this episode, what I was trying to convey is that Jack came across as awfully smug for a man who has been caught (yes, they all have secrets - no one is disputing that). In the context of the last couple of episodes, Jack has been portrayed as isolating himself with Juliet (someone Jack HAS to understand is making people uncomfortable, and in the beginning, was duping Jack herself). He's also bitter over Kate. I just thought it might be wise for our reluctant leader to seem a bit more conciliatory and contrite given the situation these days on the beach.

I've never been a Jack-basher, or participated in it. The beauty of great writing is that I want to slap Jack, depsite really wanting to like him.

If your perspective is that his is Smug or it is that he is Not-Smug, Jack Rocks!!


I second that. In fact I think he should be smug more often. Seriously, I think that he should just take a time out from his usual saving of lives and other silly activities and just sit around and reflect about how awesome he is. ;)

I like to counterbalance all the people that believe Jack can do no right by believing he can do no wrong. It's irritating isn't it?

I'm not happy that Jack has chosen to play his cards so close but I understand it.

Can you imagine if Jack had told some of the other Losties that Juliet was being forced to work with Ben? Let's say Jack tells Sayid "Look Juliet told me Ben is making her find out who's pregnant here so the Others can raid the camp and kidnap the pregnant women." That's basically telling everybody who's already paranoid about the intentions and plans of the Others that, yes, Juliet's a mole and working with Them. Even if Jack were to adamantly state that he really believes she's on the Losties' side now, who would believe him? Some of the viewers don't even believe she is - I'm undecided. He already knows his friends don't trust Juliet anyway so, it's "status quo" until he gets enough information to find out:
a) what the nature/timeline of the danger is
b) what to do about it.

But, let's say he did tell them. Would the Losties have spent their time constructively getting ready for a planned attack (which, BTW, they would not have even known about because Juliet didn't know about it cause Sawyer had the instructions) or would they have spent time torturing Juliet for information and running around like chickens with their heads cut off?

IMO, Jack's made a decision - I'm not that happy about his lack of trust in some of his friends or his willingness to protect Juliet to his own detriment, but I understand it.

And Luka - excellent post.

I suppose one could interpret confidence for smugness. In my opinion a leader should display confidence or even smugness because who is going to follow someone if they don't appear to know where they are going?

I finally appreciated the beach scenes this week. I was pretty happy with the progression, but Jack's attitude totally took away from my satisfaction. He really was smug, with an air of entitlement. What angers me is that he acted all shocked and bothered that Sayid and Desmond were hiding Naomi from him, but at the same time, he was hiding much more dangerous and important information from everyone else.

I don't necessarily disagree completely with the way Jack handled this situation, but he could definitely do without the smugness, considering what "his people" have gone through and how they, rightfully, feel about the Others.

Kate = "I can't keep my mouth shut or my legs closed."


I thought that was a disgusting comment and really disrespectful and insulting to women.

I trust Jack, that he wants nothing but safety for his fellow losties. He has a plan, I'm sure. He's extraordinarily intelligent, and is used to being a decision-maker. It just seems odd that he wouldn't have at least let, say, Sayid in on what his plan is. It just makes him look guilty, which is unfortunate. The other losties know the Others are not good news, and probably don't feel completely sure that Jack wasn't brainwashed or something while he was held prisoner.


But as a fan, knowing the back stories of all these characters, something the island folk aren't privy too, and seeing Jack's consistent behavior on the island since Day 1, I know I'd trust a loyal guy who has always been looking out for the safety of these people first and foremost. It's funny that Sawyer's back stories didn't seem to lend any compassion or understanding to his recent actions for many fans.:39: Shouldn't Sawyer be spilling some serious beans that Locke has gone to the dark side
Locke told Sawyer he is on his "own journey." How is that going to the "dark side?" Despite what he had just done, I think Sawyer trusts that Locke isn't out to hurt or betray any of the crash survivors. [/quote]
100%

But, let's say he did tell them. Would the Losties have spent their time constructively getting ready for a planned attack (which, BTW, they would not have even known about because Juliet didn't know about it cause Sawyer had the instructions) or would they have spent time torturing Juliet for information and running around like chickens with their heads cut off?

IMO, yes they would have. And I think Juliet would've known that there would be an attack or a raid on the lostaways camp, because she was gathering info re: the fertility/pregnancy of the women, and, in Ben's words, "We've done this before."

I am really tired of Jack's attitude too. Who is HE to decide for the group? And like someone else said, whatever happened to "live together," etc.?

Because making decisions is what leaders do? And everyone wanted Jack to be the leader, even though it was a position he didn't want. Oddly enough, now he seems up to the task, and everyone is all "Jack's arrogant." BS. Jack understands that when things need to get done in a hurry, it's a poor time to try to do anything by committee. He's probably spent the last couple of days going over the capabilities of the Others. And my guess is that Danielle is going to be involved in the big showdown.

I suppose one could interpret confidence for smugness. In my opinion a leader should display confidence or even smugness because who is going to follow someone if they don't appear to know where they are going?


That's an interesting point. Or maybe it was just the smugness of 'Hahaha, you all thought I had gone to the dark side, but guess what, I have a plan'. Okay that would make him about twelve years old, but still..... :biggrin:


What angers me is that he acted all shocked and bothered that Sayid and Desmond were hiding Naomi from him, but at the same time, he was hiding much more dangerous and important information from everyone else.

When did Jack act like he was shocked about Sayid and Desmond hidng Naomi? He didn't seem that bothered when Kate told him? I'm not trying to be difficult, I obviously just have a bad memory.

And my guess is that Danielle is going to be involved in the big showdown.

That would be the best, with her dynamite! I can't wait [rubs hand together]...

Cappy, that "sharing" post was :24: !! Thank you!! :hug:

I know they were pressed for time with this eppy. But just LEAVING beach camp just as Jack was FINALLY going to TELL the losties something. . .:thmbdown:

Thanks, shootfire. In the context of this episode, what I was trying to convey is that Jack came across as awfully smug for a man who has been caught

I see your point (and thanks for discussing it rationally, without the interference of other... issues), I just don't agree with the chronology. Jack didn't take off into the jungle to formulate his plan AFTER Juliet's tape was discovered, they both left after Kate told them there was a ship somewhere close to the island. That was the game changer for Jack's decision.

I agree that Sayid and Sawyer have reasons to be suspicious and I don't question their right to question Jack's authority on this one. However, I don't understand all the outrage about Jack's... smugness. Isn't that part of decision-making? Knowing what to do and yes, thinking that's the most optimal decison? Isn't that why people put someone in charge in the first place? It's what leaders are supposed to be all about: knowing what to do. I will not geek out about why Craphole Island meets none of the preconditions for a democracy with checks and balances, etc. Yes, the losties will follow him (for better or worse) because they all instinctively know what Sun voiced at the meeting.

He thinks he's in charge because everyone EXPECTS him to make decisions and be in charge and they always have. When Claire asked him to lead the memorial service he refused and told her to go with whatever "people want to do" (then she took charge; must be a family thing :biggrin: ), but the thing about Jack is that he gets stuck with the decisions nobody else wants to make. Because the people don't want to do much. They all just stood there and watched as Joanna was drowning. They expected him to solve the water situation. Sayid didn't agree with him about burning the fuselage, but Jack was smug there too and made a decision.

Having said all that...

I just thought it might be wise for our reluctant leader to seem a bit more conciliatory and contrite given the situation these days on the beach.

Jack has very poor peopole skills (though he's had his moments with Sun, Rose, Kate, Charlie, Hurley, Claire, etc) and he's the first to admit it (his joke about being a repo man because he's such a people person). I agree that he's not always the most pleasant guy to be around, but then again, authority figures who tell you what to do rarely are. Bottom line for me is that I don't give a damn if he's not nice to the losties as long as his ultimate priority is keeping them safe and/or getting them off the island. If they want a change of regime, someone has to step up to the plate. I don't see any of them doing it convincingly though so we're stuck with His Smugness.

And my guess is that Danielle is going to be involved in the big showdown.

That would be the best, with her dynamite! I can't wait [rubs hand together]...

They should all thank their lucky stars they are stuck with "Jack's smugness" because they can't seem to put on a band-aid with yelling for Jack!! He's done nothing but save their butts from day 1. So he can be as smug as he wants, as long as he is working for the greater good of all the Losties, which he usually is and which I think we are about to see MORE of. So smack Jack around all you want, but I'm pretty sure without him they would ALL be alot worse off then they are now. JMHO :) Not to mention that given their choices of replacements if it wasn't for Jack - I'd fear for the Losties seriously!!

I think Jack is doing what he thinks is the best. Yes the women deserve to know, but he's only known about the tape for what, a night? I'm sure he's trying to figure out the best way to handle the whole situation without sending people into a panic.Look what happened to Michael, running off blindly after Walt without help or a plan. Don't you think that Jin and some others would blindly go running off to kick some butt? That would put them in danger of being killed.

Well said.

I'm not sure why certain people bother with the show if they hate the main protagonist that much, I know I wouldn't.

Well I, and I am not speaking for 'certain people', love LOST, and I (no matter if technically he is) do not consider Jack the main protangonist. People do look at things differently, and with a show with such a huge cast it is OK to hate a main character, because there are so many more to choose from, and especially when said main character is imho behaving like a complete idiot.

Prince Smug and Princess Smirk...I LOVE THAT! LOL!

Quote...
Time for the Lostees to SHARE...

Juliet = "I've been sending messages to Ben about which of you girls are pregnant so the Others can come in the night and kidnap yall. Don't be uspet."

Sawyer = "I've just been out to the Black Rock to kill Locke's daddy."

Desmond = "I knew about the parachutist because I'm a wee bit of a psychic."

Charlie = "The universe has been trying to kill me for weeks."

Sun = "I have only two months to live. It's official, girls - sex kills us."

Kate = "I can't keep my mouth shut or my legs closed."
End Quote
Captain Falalfel, I spit on my computer with laughter when I read the Kate line.
HA HA!!!