did Jacob say those things? Is Jacob the "soul" of the island???

Im pretty sure he did... any thoughts?

IMO, whoever said "help me" to locke, is in a lot of pain or is weak/has lack of strength.

could "jacob", if that is who we saw in the cabin, be trapped in some sort of time-rip/wormhole? ben can see and hear him, and ben shows no sign that he thinks "jacob" is in a bad spot, so is the vision and voice that locke sees/hears totally different? (maybe real)

Perhaps Jacob needs to be saved from Ben. That may be the reason that Ben is doing everything in his power to keep Locke from doing whatever he's meant to do for the Others/Jacob/the Island.

Given Jacob's aversion to electricity, maybe he was harmed by the elecromagnetic force being unleashed?

Perhaps Jacob needs to be saved from Ben. That may be the reason that Ben is doing everything in his power to keep Locke from doing whatever he's meant to do for the Others/Jacob/the Island.

so, is ben keeping jacob in the wierd invisible/inter-reality state he is in? is the way ben talks to jacob in front of locke more pretend? in that, ben doesnt think locke will actually see jacob, even though he acts suprised when locke cannot, and therefore ben puts on a show when the actual case is that jacob is trapped by ben.

also, just to lay it down (even though im sure im not the first to put it in writing)

the Others= the Hostiles

the Purge= ben and the Hostiles killing off DHARMA

the Hostiles= the Natives?

IMO, the Natives/Hostiles are not really native to tha island. they have a story too.

Perhaps Jacob needs to be saved from Ben. That may be the reason that Ben is doing everything in his power to keep Locke from doing whatever he's meant to do for the Others/Jacob/the Island.
What do we know?
1) The Others have become increasingly dissatisfied with Ben as their leader,
especially since Locke's arrival among them.
2) Locke is someone they've been expecting, as was made clear last week when Ben
attempted to discredit him saying, "He's not who we thought he was." Remaining
question...who do they think he is? (Is it possible they thought that Ben was that
person when they came upon him in the jungle as a boy?)
3) Ben said that until Locke showed up in his house, he couldn't even wiggle his toes,
but as soon as Locke showed up, he felt pins & needles...it would stand to reason
that, if Locke radiates a level of his "special" qualities, and his communion with the
island rests heavily with the island's ability to heal, perhaps Jacob felt these affects
when John arrived with Ben, and finally felt there was someone who could help him.
4) He said "Help Me" to John as he went to leave...this was to make him believe...Ben
apparently didn't hear this. Locke didn't believe there was anyone in the chair,
but he DEFINITELY saw Jacob when he threw Ben against the wall (there is a close
up of Jacob's eye as he turns his gaze from a stunned Ben to a frightened John),
hence he ran out of the cabin...afraid...
5) Ben said he was sorry that John was too "limited" to see...limited by his loss of
faith...(the same thing happened last season with The Hatch and the pushing of the
button)...this is another trial for John to overcome...
6) Ben shot John because he wanted to know what Jacob said to him. I think of the
scene in the Stanly Kubrick film "The Shining" when we hear the telepathic question,
"Do you want some ice cream, Doc?"...we hear it, and the intended recipient of the
question hears it...Jacob did not intend for Ben to hear what he said to Locke.
Apparently Jacob has become dissatisfied with Ben as well.
7) Ben needed to exercise a tremendous ammount of patience to deal with his father
until the time of "The Purge". Perhaps Jacob has been exerting the same patience
with Ben until the arrival of Locke. Perhaps The Others have been exerting this
same patience with Ben.
8) Alex gave Locke a gun before he and Ben left to go see Jacob. Richard and Tom
ignored Ben's plea to stop Locke from beating Mikhail to a bloody pulp. All of The
Others knew where Locke and Ben were going. It would stand to reason that at least
one of them would follow not too far behind...
9) Ben is a mass-murderer...the island doesn't take kindly to evil-doers of that ilk.
10) Ben had a look more of shock and awe than anything else when Locke told him
what he heard Jacob say. Possibly because of what Jacob said, or (and I believe
more probable) because Locke admitted that he heard Jacob's voice, thereby also
admitting that he believed Jacob exists. (Until this point, Ben was the "only one"
who spoke to or heard from Jacob.
11) No matter what the truth behind these circumstances...nothing will ever be the
same after this. (I believe that when Locke heals from his wounds, his resolve will
be infinitely stronger, and his purpose more clear. This will be the end of Ben.)

I hope he does survive. John Locke is a great character.

Great post LostKlone. I agree with most of your analysis. I really am very disappointed with Lockes level of faith. In my mind he really hasn't gained back the faith he had since before they entered the hatch and before Boone died. I do think that this experience will greatly change lockes level of faith. I'm hopping that he will finally return to what he was when they first came to the island now that he has a purpose;that purpose of course is to help Jacob :)

I wonder why Ben didnt hear Jacob say "help me"? And I wonder why Jacob did not elaborate if he could speak words only heard by Locke.

bens reaction to locke telling what jacob said was odd. i had a small wonder if ben took it like jacob told locke to tell ben to help him(locke). and since ben just shot/killed locke, he had a look of bewilderment because he shot the man jacob said to help.

i also feel that locke is being prepped to become the Other's next leader. imagine the lostie's surprise next season when they find out that locke has replaced ben as the leader of the Other's after all these weeks.

the line where ben says locke is too "limited" to see reminds me of "only fools are enslaved by time and space" from the video in not in portland.

i also feel that locke is being prepped to become the Other's next leader. imagine the lostie's surprise next season when they find out that locke has replaced ben as the leader of the Other's after all these weeks.

the line where ben says locke is too "limited" to see reminds me of "only fools are enslaved by time and space" from the video in not in portland.


for sure. but rather than being "prepped to become the Other's next leader", i think that locke has a naturally evolving relationship with the island, brought on by the choices he makes. i dont think he wants to be a leader, but if he did, i think the Others/Hostiles (minus any kids of DHARMA) would listen to him. i found the calm reaction by tomfriendly and the others kind of odd. but even more odd, was the show of calm violence coming out of locke. he really didnt like mikhail. tried to kill him, then beats the holy heck out of him with little if no provocation. yet he is so calm and confident right after being brutally violent. he even gives mikail a wink when he and ben walk past mikhail on their way out of camp. very taunting yet very sure of himself.

bens reaction to locke telling what jacob said was odd. i had a small wonder if ben took it like jacob told locke to tell ben to help him(locke). and since ben just shot/killed locke, he had a look of bewilderment because he shot the man jacob said to help.

Yeah, I just went back and watched that scene, and it does look just like that. I was wondering myself what Ben's reaction meant, and why Ben didn't just finish John off as he seemed ready to do before, but after that revelation, he puts his gun arm down. Good call anti-hero.

Well, Ben was acting like a jealous school girl when he was telling Locke about Jacob.
"He only talks to ME!!" He only trusts ME!!!"
Personally, I think Jacob can't stand Ben anymore. He's turned into a jealous sissy.
I'm glad Jacob the not-so-friendly ghost pushed Ben into the wall. I would have done the same thing if I were a ghost.

And seriously... what kind of help could a ghost possibly need??
It's a GHOST for cripes sake!!!!!!!!!!

i kinda think it had a double meaning. he said help me because ben's holding him prisoner, and/or he had a vision or something of ben shooting locke.

Great post. A lot of good ideas. Even though Ben's backstory was sympathetic, poor little boy, the way in which that has warped him is frightening. I thought it was interesting that all along we have thought that Dharma was "the bad guy" and we just weren't too sure about the Others. But from what we saw last night, there was absolutely nothing wrong with Dharma, nothing hostile, nothing dangerous, nothing that was anything but peaceful. I also thought that we can now trace a lot of what is going on on the island to things coming directly out of Ben's own past. All of the mothers dying in childbirth and having to kill one's father to belong to the new group come to mind right away.

The 'help me' was very interesting. It makes me think that Ben is in some way controlling Jacob, although Jacob is obviously capable of being very powerful. I'm very curious as to why Ben agreed to bring Locke to him in the first place. Its almost like he was testing to see if Locke could really see Jacob, to see if he was really 'the man they thought he was.' I think Ben was not expecting John to see him, and indeed hoping that he wouldn't.

Yeah, just before Jacob slammed Ben against the wall, Ben was sternly saying to him that that was quite enough, temper-tantrum wise. Like a dad would say to a naughty child. Only this time, Jacob wasn't permitting Ben to treat him like that.

Be interesting to hear whatever conversation happened in there before Ben came out to re-join Locke, who'd wisely gotten the heck out of there!

Would'nt it be funny though, if it was Ben, out the side of his mouth :D

You know, watching this whole season and the later part of season 2, we are constantly reminded of the half truths "The Others" portray. Lots of secrets and truths that bend so much that a pretzel looks straight.

So, why do I bring this up? Well, how do we know what we are seeing from Ben is truth or what HE wants to be shown? The mysterious "sand" trail in front of the house? Ben paused and looked at it to clue Locke and the audience to pay attention to it. Locke SMELLS it without concern. No gunpowder or explosive substance; also, is falls out of his hand heavy, so the ASHES theory is shot. Could it be a power cable ran through the jungle, to this specific house, to put on the light show for Locke? Maybe. We know how good they are at acting...

Just remember, never take anything for face value on this show. Ever. ;)

Would'nt it be funny though, if it was Ben, out the side of his mouth :D
I thought I was the only one. I took the Help me as if Ben said it alla the movie Psycho.

Yeah, just before Jacob slammed Ben against the wall, Ben was sternly saying to him that that was quite enough, temper-tantrum wise. Like a dad would say to a naughty child. Only this time, Jacob wasn't permitting Ben to treat him like that.

If I remember correctly, Ben said, "That's enough! You've had your fun."

And Ben honestly didn't hear Jacob talk to Locke. But he was pissed off when he found out what happened. Ben hates losing power or face and this was the one thing on the island that set him apart. Locke is going to heal and take his place next to Jacob in the cabin.

I wonder why Ben didnt here Jacob say "help me"?

My question is this: Has Ben EVER been able to hear Jacob? Or is it all in his head?

He seemed shocked that Locke heard anything. After he shot him, he asked what Jacob had said. Ben looked geniunely frightened that Locke could hear Jacob at all.

Maybe Jacob hasn't been speaking to Ben at all. Ben is having the conversation in his head (split personality?). The fact that Locke heard something that Ben didn't could show that Locke has a special "bond" with the island that even Ben himself can not achieve.

IMO, the Natives/Hostiles are not really native to tha island. they have a story too.
I agree. From their dress, I'd guess they came on the Black Rock. The probably washed up in a tsunami and assimilated with the indigenous population who built the 4 toed statue and the sacrificial column (and possibly wiped them out by spreading diseases they had no immunity to.) Judging by Richard's appearance, they have some kind of fountain of youth thing going on.


Locke is someone they've been expecting, as was made clear last week when Ben
attempted to discredit him saying, "He's not who we thought he was." Remaining
question...who do they think he is? (Is it possible they thought that Ben was that
person when they came upon him in the jungle as a boy?)
It seems to me, they thought Locke would be a new leader, a messiah, based on the fact that he had been paralyzed and now can walk which indicates an affinity with the island. I think it is possible that they thought Ben was the one but it's equally possible that they were into stealing children back then too. Still, he did become the leader, if not the messiah. Maybe it's just me, but I think they're wrong on both counts. I think the person they thought Locke to be is Jack.

Maybe Jacob hasn't been speaking to Ben at all. Ben is having the conversation in his head (split personality?)

To continue this thought, hello Fight Club. Ben even percieved Jacob throwing him much like a Pitt/Norton.

But I believe that Jacob is really there. God I love this show.

I think Jacob may be paralyzed. His inability to move has allowed him to develop other talents - like his telekinesis and his ability to project his thoughts. I think he needs John because John was paralyzed and became healed. Ben was in danger of losing his mobility but he was exposed to John and became healed.

Good stuff!!!

A note about Ben shooting Locke. I believe Ben knows Locke will be back because it seems he shot him in a non-vital area (non-vital for this Island i mean) the stomach/lung area. This will heal in about 20 minutes and Locke will be on his way again. If Ben wanted him dead he would have plugged him right between the eyes.

I thought about the split personality thing for a bit..but then we were shown the image of him from hd...so that dispelled that idea...

than Ben was totally freaked out by the idea that Locke heard him...so Jacob is there...in some form.....

I think the Help me Help me was a way of him warning Locke....and the fact that he will help him
Ben summoned him to,.,.,Lets see if Jacobcan help you now

So the main issue here seems to be patience and control. Ben had to exercise patience when waiting for the Purge, and it's hard to tell who has control over whom at this point: does Ben have control over Jacob, or vice versa. As the many screencaps indicate, Jacob is indeed flesh and blood, but why is it that Locke only saw him once he started throwing things (and Ben) around? We saw a fleeting image of Jacob, and it's stuck with me ever since. To be quite honest, the whole "meetup" with Jacob seemed a bit pointless - we didn't learn anything new, we just got that glimpse of Jacob. We hear someone say "help me", but we don't know if that was directed at Locke, or what. For all we know, it could have been Jacob intending to say it to Ben, and Locke heard it instead. I find it quite interesting that Ben seemed to interact with Jacob, yet he didn't hear what Locke said to him.
I really don't know what this all means. Did Ben really intend to get some answers out of Jacob when he took Locke there? It's so frustrating! it feels like its going to be the "four-toed statue" of the season. Is Ben really the only one who 'talks' to Jacob? At this point, I dont know that Ben really even hears Jacob - it really seems like he was putting on a show, but that Jacob is real and Ben cannot hear what he is saying. So maybe....Ben can see Jacob, but not hear him. And Locke can hear Jacob, but not always see him.

I thought at first that Ben was having a schizo-Carrie telekinetic temper tantrum. If it is some ancient island force/entity - why does only Ben have access? We now know that at the very least, Richard is a native of the island, so why would an outsider have so much power?

If childhood trauma Ben has developed multiple personalities, then the "Help me..." is really freaky as Ben's mind seems to be turning against itself.

----------

Oh, and I think shooting Locke will end up adding to his messiah-like roll. He already carried his cross (Cooper) across the island, now all he needs to do is return from the dead.

i dont think that was the 1st time, sum1 asked to see jacob and ended up dead.... my reason for saying that comes from alex who gave john the gun and told him, "you gonna need it".. as it to say, evey1 who sees jacob, does not make it back for some reason...also,
remember the look ben gave her when she gave him the gun...

wasn't there some sort of ashe laying around the entrace to the house? I've heard o cultures that believe laying 'ashe' can prevent a spirit from escaping or traps a spirirt within the circle of ashe, I.e. skeleton key. I think the spirit is trapped in the house and needs locke to help release it.
100%
So the main issue here seems to be patience and control. Ben had to exercise patience when waiting for the Purge, and it's hard to tell who has control over whom at this point: does Ben have control over Jacob, or vice versa. As the many screencaps indicate, Jacob is indeed flesh and blood, but why is it that Locke only saw him once he started throwing things (and Ben) around? We saw a fleeting image of Jacob, and it's stuck with me ever since. To be quite honest, the whole "meetup" with Jacob seemed a bit pointless - we didn't learn anything new, we just got that glimpse of Jacob. We hear someone say "help me", but we don't know if that was directed at Locke, or what. For all we know, it could have been Jacob intending to say it to Ben, and Locke heard it instead. I find it quite interesting that Ben seemed to interact with Jacob, yet he didn't hear what Locke said to him.
I really don't know what this all means. Did Ben really intend to get some answers out of Jacob when he took Locke there? It's so frustrating! it feels like its going to be the "four-toed statue" of the season. Is Ben really the only one who 'talks' to Jacob? At this point, I dont know that Ben really even hears Jacob - it really seems like he was putting on a show, but that Jacob is real and Ben cannot hear what he is saying. So maybe....Ben can see Jacob, but not hear him. And Locke can hear Jacob, but not always see him.

I believe that locke was unable to see jacob initially because he didn't believe jacob was real. and that he did hear him because he wasn't talking to locke. once jacob addressed locke directly he heard him, then he was able to see him.... for the moment.seems like ben does have control over jacob for no. maybe because he has him trapped in that house. something tells me once locke helps jacob get out this will be the end for ben.
100%
So the main issue here seems to be patience and control. Ben had to exercise patience when waiting for the Purge, and it's hard to tell who has control over whom at this point: does Ben have control over Jacob, or vice versa. As the many screencaps indicate, Jacob is indeed flesh and blood, but why is it that Locke only saw him once he started throwing things (and Ben) around? We saw a fleeting image of Jacob, and it's stuck with me ever since. To be quite honest, the whole "meetup" with Jacob seemed a bit pointless - we didn't learn anything new, we just got that glimpse of Jacob. We hear someone say "help me", but we don't know if that was directed at Locke, or what. For all we know, it could have been Jacob intending to say it to Ben, and Locke heard it instead. I find it quite interesting that Ben seemed to interact with Jacob, yet he didn't hear what Locke said to him.
I really don't know what this all means. Did Ben really intend to get some answers out of Jacob when he took Locke there? It's so frustrating! it feels like its going to be the "four-toed statue" of the season. Is Ben really the only one who 'talks' to Jacob? At this point, I dont know that Ben really even hears Jacob - it really seems like he was putting on a show, but that Jacob is real and Ben cannot hear what he is saying. So maybe....Ben can see Jacob, but not hear him. And Locke can hear Jacob, but not always see him.

I believe that locke was unable to see jacob initially because he didn't believe jacob was real. and that he did hear him because he wasn't talking to locke. once jacob addressed locke directly he heard him, then he was able to see him.... for the moment.seems like ben does have control over jacob for no. maybe because he has him trapped in that house. something tells me once locke helps jacob get out this will be the end for ben.

wasn't there some sort of ashe laying around the entrace to the house? .

the ash/line is talked about here ..

http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1543127#post1543127