I'm not all that intimately acquainted with firearms, but I'm sure many here are. It looked to me as if the weapon Olivia the schoolteacher was brandishing during the Hostiles encounter was a (US-made) M1 carbine, and the weapons we glimpsed briefly through the window in the hands of her colleagues seemed to be of a similar provenance. When Alpert's party wander through the liquidated Dharma compound, however, they all seem to be carrying Kalashnikov rifles and carbines. As we know, the weapons in the Swan's gun vault were conspicuously and exclusively of Soviet and Eastern Bloc manufacture. Might not be significant, but food for thought.

Have they been pilfering from Dharma over the years and finally stockpiled enough for the attack?

I'm not all that intimately acquainted with firearms, but I'm sure many here are. It looked to me as if the weapon Olivia the schoolteacher was brandishing during the Hostiles encounter was a (US-made) M1 carbine, and the weapons we glimpsed briefly through the window in the hands of her colleagues seemed to be of a similar provenance. When Alpert's party wander through the liquidated Dharma compound, however, they all seem to be carrying Kalashnikov rifles and carbines. As we know, the weapons in the Swan's gun vault were conspicuously and exclusively of Soviet and Eastern Bloc manufacture. Might not be significant, but food for thought.

Maybe they overran some of the stations before hitting the barracks. Would explain the gas masks at least. Of course that leaves the interesting question of, why leave the Swan alone.

How did the hostiles get AK-47's and canisters of poison gas and gas masks if they were the natives of the island? Someone had to be supplying them. My guess is there's a huge Lost Experience connection here. Maybe Thomas Mittelwerk is to blame?

How did the hostiles get AK-47's and canisters of poison gas and gas masks if they were the natives of the island? Someone had to be supplying them. My guess is there's a huge Lost Experience connection here. Maybe Thomas Mittelwerk is to blame?

Possibly Ben stole them and gave them to the natives.

Ben got it for them?

Possibly Ben stole them and gave them to the natives.

I don't think so. I think the Hostiles already had off-Island connections and suppliers.

are we sure the gas is poisonous or just sleep gas?

are we sure the gas is poisonous or just sleep gas?

I am pretty sure the gas killed anyone who breathed it in. I assume most sleep gas doesn't cause violent choking and bleeding from the nose and mouth.

the canister were not marked as Dharma, just like the ones used to stunn Kate and Jack. It's curious, indeed. How did they get these this canisters? can they come and go to and from the island before finishing of with DI?

There have been other items on the Island that were not Dharma marked. Maybe Dharma didn't want to associated with cans of poisonous gas. I guess they were originally intended for wiping out the hostiles, but with Ben working for them on the inside, the hostiles got their hands on them instead.

Thank goodness so many of you are asking the same questions that stumped me last night. :smile: I wondered too where the Hostiles got the gas. Could the canisters be military surplus? I don't know much about this, but the US military was doing nuclear testing in the South Pacific in the '50s, right? Maybe they're left-over from something like that....

There have been other items on the Island that were not Dharma marked.

Yes, true; the white canvas tents the Others are using right now don't have Dharma symbols on them, either.

I think given the Hanso/Dharma connection and the fact that Hanso had munitions and arms connections explains why and how Dharma got the canisters (and guns) and therefore explains that the hostiles were probably stealing them from Dharma Weapon caches (probably with the assistance of Ben)

I rewatched that whole purge scene a couple of times now. I don't see any cannisters on the ground in Otherville. Am I missing something? The only cannister I saw was the one Ben had in the van. And they didn't show that well enough to tell if it had a Dharma logo or not.

The other thing I noticed is when Locke and Ben are at the mass grave, the camera slowly pans over a dead body. When they get to the skull, it has a hole in it like he was shot in the head. That mass grave had to have been created after the purge. I'm sure that any death prior to the purge would have been dealt with respectfully with a proper burial. So who got shot? The Dharma uniform on that dead body isn't personalized like all the others.

How did Radzinski go out? Was it a self-induced shotgun or was it a pistol??

I got the impression that Ben supplied the poison gas and engineered the whole purge. That is why after they take the barracks without a shot, you can see how deferential Richard is already being towards Ben. Ben has already started to assume the role of leader at that point. Obviously, there are more places on the island than just the barracks, and the purge would have probably progressed to various other darma stations, and other means than gas were obviously used.

I ask the same question about the gas and the guns, but I didn't notice the lack of cannisters in the compound. I watched that scene three times looking see if the Hostiles were wearing shoes and did not see any cannisters. WHY???

In the school scene the teacher takes out a bolt action rifle and we see background Dharma folks with bolt action long rifles. On purge day the hostiles are armed with various weapons including fully automatics. If we assume that the hostiles were increasing their attacks then we could assume that Dharma sent better weapons for protection as time went on and then we could assume that Ben purged the weapons and gas from the Dharma armory. If we don't like to assume, then I would venture to say that the gas and weapons came from an outside source, who knows who, but an outside source.

Speaking of weapons........does anyone remember Goodwin's knife, World War II era US Army I believe. I also noticed that Pirate Looking Richard (who never said his name) in the jungle had a 19th century US military flap type holster, commonly used for revolvers, something like a Navy Colt. Little things that make me wonder and little things that add to the history of the island.

This might be crazy, but I think the poison gas and that the reason Ben had to be "very patient" in order to join the others are related. When child Ben meets Richard in the jungle he has long hair and looks like a native or pirate or whatever. After many years, at the purge Richard looks much more groomed - much more like his Mittleos Bioscience persona. I think that the reason it took so long for the purge to develop is that they realized that they needed some sort of outside funding in order to gather the materials necessary for the insurgency.

If Dharma was doing any kind of quasi-military research, it might not be too hard to find an opposing interest to back the 'rebels'.

That may be a strectch, but it could explain the gas and the other advanced weaponry, and how the Others have connections with the outside world.

I can't seem to figure out if the Hostile are native of the island, how in gods name did they get firepower and the deadly gas cans? If they are natives, then chances are, they don't have a way on or off the island..so the only way would be to steal from Dharma....something just doesnt pan out.

Dharma assumes they are natives because they were there before them. Or simply calls them "natives" in a derogatory manner.

As far as their equipment, I was thinking they were Thomas Mittlewerks minions but Mittlewerk didnt become hellbent on taking down Hanso until AFTER the failure of DI which we can assume was due to them being wiped off the planet by the Purge so it cant B his doing. There is clearly another powerful group involved or, this story is getting better as we move

P.Stones

Alvar Hanso made his money as an arms dealer, did he not? Maybe he used the island as a place to store weapons prior to creating Dharma. The Hostiles may have been aware of where the weapons were kept.

Has anyone ID'ed the era of the holster used by Richard in the woods? I have been searching all over for Rifle and holster info from 1860-1960 to see if I can get a match but I havent had much luck yet.

How did Radzinski go out? Was it a self-induced shotgun or was it a pistol??

He used the Hemmingway method: putting a shotgun in his mouth and leaving a blood stain (http://www.lostpedia.com/images/6/63/Radzinski.jpg) on the ceiling of the Swan.

the Hemmingway method


Isn't that a band name? If not I am starting a new band.

I think Richard's holster looked more like a WW II style Luger holster with a buckle closure and the spare magazine pouch sewn on the front.
One of the Hostiles invading Dharmaville had a Beretta 92FS pistol. Its combat trigger guard was added in 1983.
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1287-635.html

This is the best shot that I can find of the holster:
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=97786&fullsize=1

If you go to this site they have some different flap holsters 1860 through 1880:
http://possibleshop.com/holster1.htm

I'm pretty sure that the Alpert in the jungle holster is quite dated while the purge holsters were for semi-autos.

From the Jacob thread there was a link to another site that has screen shots of all kinds of different stuff from the epi's. One of them fits in this discussion of weapons, it's a shot of the gas cannister. The problem I'm having is that since it is a real cannister that can be traced on the internet it is listed as CS. CS is just an irratent that the military and police use to train with an in crowd control/dispersions. In other words, CS won't cause anyone to have bloody noses or die. I know I've been in a gas chamber with a lot of CS and all it did was make my eyes water and cleared up the cold I had. Yes I know this isn't real but they've been doing so good at keeping thingss that are real realistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saukkomies http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/images/FuselageGreen/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1547611#post1547611)
the Hemmingway method

Isn't that a band name? If not I am starting a new band.

Heh! That's pretty funny! It's like that 80s band "Spandau Ballet". They got their name from a slang expression used by German soldiers in WWI. When the Brits or Frenchies would come charging across No Man's Land, the Germans would open fire with their Spandau machine guns and cut them down. Because this became such a routine thing for them to do, they relieved the monotony by singling out a particular soldier and would keep firing at him as long as they could.

The trick was to try to shoot the poor fellow in such a way that he would remain on his feet, being kept upright from the force of the bullets slamming through his body. As each bullet would hit him, he'd be propelled backward a yard or two and lifted partially up off the ground. Usually his arms, head and legs would be thrashing around the entire time in a mockery of a dance.

The German machine gunner crews would have competitions with one another to see which could keep a victim dancing the longest. Sometimes they'd keep the corpse up so long that by the time it was over there was nothing left of the body, and bits and pieces of it would be strewn about a half a kilometer through No Man's Land - an arm here, a bit of ribcage there...

During a charge it was quite the psychological weapon for troops to see one of their mates being blown backwards through their ranks in this manner, as you may well imagine. Just another one of those lovely little factoids about that lovely little war... ;)

Oh, hey, BTW, NextOne, I like your Avi. Is that Marx?
100%
From the Jacob thread there was a link to another site that has screen shots of all kinds of different stuff from the epi's. One of them fits in this discussion of weapons, it's a shot of the gas cannister. The problem I'm having is that since it is a real cannister that can be traced on the internet it is listed as CS. CS is just an irratent that the military and police use to train with an in crowd control/dispersions. In other words, CS won't cause anyone to have bloody noses or die. I know I've been in a gas chamber with a lot of CS and all it did was make my eyes water and cleared up the cold I had. Yes I know this isn't real but they've been doing so good at keeping thingss that are real realistic.

They did show us a canister of CS (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=92603&fullsize=1) in the episode "Left Behind (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Left_Behind)". There was a bit of a discussion about it at the time here on the Lage, and yes, basically CS is a tear gas - not something that would kill people over a wide open area like it did to Roger and the other Dharma folks. But I thought that from the screencap from this last episode that they showed us that the gas cannister (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=97945&fullsize=1) that Ben used inside the VW van was something different... I mean, the canisters look very different from each other, no? Someone mentioned earlier what this gas was, but I can't recall what they said...

Quote:
Oh, hey, BTW, NextOne, I like your Avi. Is that Marx?


It's the real Mikhail Bakunin, I saw it and though it was high-larious, I almost opted for an icon of this image instead : http://www.campesinocollective.org/images/Bakunin.jpg

It's the real Mikhail Bakunin, I saw it and though it was high-larious, I almost opted for an icon of this image instead : http://www.campesinocollective.org/images/Bakunin.jpg

That's cool! Bakunin looks sort of like a freaked-out version of Santa Claus! :biggrin:

How did the hostiles get AK-47's and canisters of poison gas and gas masks if they were the natives of the island? Someone had to be supplying them. My guess is there's a huge Lost Experience connection here. Maybe Thomas Mittelwerk is to blame?

Yes, and why would DHARMA have this gas to begin with?

Yes, and why would DHARMA have this gas to begin with?
Exactly what I was thinking. This, considering from the orientation films we've seen, Dharma was started as a peaceful project. And it even appeared that some of the original members were part of the Hippie culture, so I imagine bringing weapons was extremely low on their list, if at all.

http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1651033#post1651033

Cinamin reminded me of a few other things