How did Desmond skim over the happenings of what we saw at the end? How did he not know there would be people in the Looking glass? I guess his visions were off. Or he was lying (considering they didn't show us any visions). He would only be lying if he was involved or knew stuff about what was going on down there. Not sure I buy into that though. Just, how is there no mention of what happened... before it happened?

I think they've been off quite a bit, he only gets bits and pieces of what happens, and he's usually present when his flashes come true. Maybe he can't see things in flashes that he isn't going to see in person??

I think they've been off quite a bit, he only gets bits and pieces of what happens, and he's usually present when his flashes come true. Maybe he can't see things in flashes that he isn't going to see in person??

That would mean he sees Charlie flip the switch in the hatch

I have a weird feeling that Desmond is going to go down there anyway, pen. The way he wanted to take Charlie's place, I think that he isn't going to be able to live with himself if he doesn't do all he can to stop his death, even though he think's Charlie is supposed to die. I have nothing to base this on, I just think he's gonna go for a swim when he wakes up. LOL

As for the flashes, didn't he say before that they come like puzzle pieces and he doesn't have all of them? Bits and pieces of events that he puts together into a picture or something like that.

As Desmond himself said, "It doesn't work that way."

He saw a flash of machinery, a light, a switch. He saw the switch being flipped. THEN he saw Charlie--drowning. Because it was an underwater hatch and because he saw Charlie drowning, he simply thought that the hatch was water-filled. When all you see is quick flashes (and we were shown how quick they are in Catch 22), you don't catch every detail. Charlie's drowning happens AFTER the switch is flipped. Time between one and the other? Desmond doesn't KNOW--and neither do we!

OR, if you buy spoilers,
maybe Charlie doesn't flip the switch till AFTER the hatch is flooded by Mikhail (or whoever)?

Let's not jump to conclusions. Desmond saw a room of machinery--really fast. He saw a light and a switch--really fast. He saw Charlie flip the switch--really fast. He saw Charlie drowning--really fast. Again, the time that lapsed between these events is UNKNOWN. Desmond's assuming they all came one on top of another. But that ain't necessarily so. (Claire's rescue helicopter certainly wasn't coming at the exact same time, after all!)

It obviously wasnt as it was planned. He was suppose to die. Why did it not pan out like that? He said nothing of the women in the hatch.

Will Desmond stop having flashes now that he got knocked out again like he did by the bartender?

why didnt he see mikael running outta the jungle...there only flashes

It could all still happen as Desmond saw. He did not see what happened when Charlie got down there. He saw what happens when Charlie is leaving. And we aon't see that until next week.

I wondered if Des is getting this right also.. I don't doubt that he's seeing a sequence of flashes in which Charlie saves the day and dies.. Just that the sequence could be incorrect, or there are pieces of flash missing.. Just like FBYE where he sees both Charlie being killed with an arrow, and alive to rescue the parachuter - something may be missing.

I have a weird feeling that Desmond is going to go down there anyway, pen.

interesting...

Watch the preview again...there's a clip of what looks like Desmond in A hatch, pointing a gun...

But why did Desmond offer to take Charlie's place? If things don't happen as he sees them, doesn't that change the outcome? He saw Charlie flip the switch in his vision, therefore it has to be Charlie that flips the switch in reality. . . . Right?

He might not have seen the people in his flashes, but Charlie still could get to the button and the place could flood.

Charlie still has time to drown.

If I remember correctly Desmond told him he was surrounded by women before he flipped the switch. Someone should go back and rewatch that sene.

It obviously wasnt as it was planned. He was suppose to die. Why did it not pan out like that? He said nothing of the women in the hatch.

I think that Desmond didn't have a flash. When Desmond first spoke to Charlie, he told Charlie that he didn't have a flashback. I think Desmond was telling the truth then. Desmond probably change his mind, because he thinks the only way Penny would come to the island, is if Charlie die. Did you notice how Desmond told Charlie that he saw Claire being rescue in his flash? I think Desmond only said that because he knows how much Claire mean to Charlie. Usually when Desmond have a flash, it usually shown. This time it wasn't , so I really do not think he actually had one. I think he just feels that he needs Charlie to die, in order to be with Penny. Desmond knows that Charlie can't swim, so he probably didn't think Charlie would have made it. ( didn't he suggest that Charlie use something to weigh him down?)

Desmond says that in his flash, Charlie is in the station already. He flicks a switch (which we later learn is what is disrupting the communications) and then he drowns. We already knew that he'd get down there just fine. It's safe to assume that he'll find a way to hit the switch that he was sent there for, but will die soon after. Which will finally fulfill Desmond's flashes.

I think Desmond's vision was that Charlie went down, and got captured, and that he (Desmond) went down after to help Charlie. He just didn't tell Charlie everything in the vision.

I just re-watched the scene where Des tells Charlie he sees him "in a hatch with equipment all around". So very different from the way it played out. And this time we were not privvy to the flash. Also, Des offering to go in Charlie's place, especially after he told Charlie in order for the flash to come true he (Charlie) had to die. He knew how much it meant to Charlie for Claire and Aaron to be rescued. I mean he was doing this to make sure that happened. Very strainge.

Actually when Desmond has a flash we don't always see it. Case in point, when the lightening hits, and when Claire was drowning. In both cases we didn't see the flashes.

I think Desmond's vision was that Charlie went down, and got captured, and that he (Desmond) went down after to help Charlie. He just didn't tell Charlie everything in the vision.

Exactly, we don't really know what went down the Des' vision. He could quite possibly be lying about the whole ordeal in order to get what he really saw to happen, just like he did in FBYE.

I have a weird feeling that Desmond is going to go down there anyway, pen. The way he wanted to take Charlie's place, I think that he isn't going to be able to live with himself if he doesn't do all he can to stop his death, even though he think's Charlie is supposed to die. I have nothing to base this on, I just think he's gonna go for a swim when he wakes up. LOL.

Yeah, though he probably decided he was supposed to take Charlie's place because he had another flash and noticed there were hot women down there.;)

Did anyone else think for a brief moment when Charlie clocked Des, that Charlie was a mole- just for a minute. I mean, seriously, did he have to knock him out?

Did Desmond's offer to take Charlie's place a) negate the death sentence on Charlie OR b) change the sequence of event enough to mess up his vision- ie, the rescue and Charlie accomplishing the mission?

I don't think Desmond wanted to send Charlie to his death. I think he sees a lot of himself in Charlie.

Anyway, if you rember Desmonds time travelling episode (or whatever it was) when he was in the bar he thought his vision should've happened and it didn't until the following evening when the conditions were right.

Btw, I like the idea of his visions going away after getting conked on the head again, but I think that's too Gilligan's Island for this show! :lol2:

Maybe he just wants to give Charlie a little hope... hopefully he survives, and then Charlies is victorious over his supposedly inevitable fate: death. A boost of confidence maybe?

Or maybe he'll just drown.

I do not think Desmond had a vision this time. I think he was lying to Charlie. When Charlie first ask Desmond if he had a flash, Desmond told him "no". That time Desmond was telling the truth. But I think Desmond still feels that Charlie must die, in order for his vision of Penny to come true. So he told Charlie that he must switch off the underwater hatch, hoping that Charlie would drown, considering that Desmond knows that Charlie is not a good swimmer. He threw in the part about Claire and Aaron being save so that Charlie would go through with it, since he knows how much Claire and Aaron means to Charlie.

He gets his visions in bits an pieces, not a whole clear picture. He explained that on the episode where they found Naomi.

If he was really trying to trick Charlie into going into the hatch would he do it by convincing him he was going to die? I suppose he tried to opposite in Catch-22, but still. I think Desmond's sacrifice changed the picture.

Don't you think if Des stopped telling people about his visions they might be more likely to come true?

If he was really trying to trick Charlie into going into the hatch would he do it by convincing him he was going to die? I suppose he tried to opposite in Catch-22, but still. I think Desmond's sacrifice changed the picture.

Don't you think if Des stopped telling people about his visions they might be more likely to come true?

Yes, which is why I agree that Desmond is lying this time. He knew Charlie would only die to save Claire. Make Charlie feel like a hero, Des gets his way, and he thinks that Pen will show up because of it?

...So he told Charlie that he must switch off the underwater hatch, hoping that Charlie would drown, considering that Desmond knows that Charlie is not a good swimmer. He threw in the part about Claire and Aaron being save so that Charlie would go through with it, since he knows how much Claire and Aaron means to Charlie.
But didn't this happen before Juliet told them about the underwater hatch being the location for the signal blocker? I wondered if Desmond's vision was about himself and he inserted Charlie instead of himself because he couldn't at first face dying/not seeing Penny again. But out on the boat his better self took over, and he couldn't let Charlie take his place.

Desmond originally maybe thought Charlie would do this since Charlie knew the other visions were real and about himself. Don't know that I actually believe this, it's just a thought.

But didn't this happen before Juliet told them about the underwater hatch being the location for the signal blocker?Yes. Also, if Desmond was making it up why/how would he have known about a switch near a yellow light?

Yes. Also, if Desmond was making it up why/how would he have known about a switch near a yellow light?

..maybe because Desmond has been on the island much longer than any of the survivor of flight 815. Desmond might have even been in the underwater hatch before. In The Brig we found that that all the Dhrama people were killed in the purge. So what was Kelvin and Desmond? why weren't they killed in the purge?

It would seem like if Desmond did have a flash, why didn't he see those girls pointing a gun at Charlie..or maybe he did see that, and that was why he wanted to change places with Charlie.

Let's not jump to conclusions. Desmond saw a room of machinery--really fast. He saw a light and a switch--really fast. He saw Charlie flip the switch--really fast. He saw Charlie drowning--really fast. Again, the time that lapsed between these events is UNKNOWN. Desmond's assuming they all came one on top of another. But that ain't necessarily so. (Claire's rescue helicopter certainly wasn't coming at the exact same time, after all!)

No offense, but you seem to be jumping to your own conclusions. Since they didn't show us any Desmond future seeing, we don't know exactly what he saw. We can believe him, that's fine. But what makes you think everyone was--really fast? The arrow to the neck that would have killed Charlie vision wasn't exactly a quick flash.

And I'm not saying anything is wrong with what Desmond saw, simply that he clearly didn't get a glimpse of some pretty important details.

What if Desmond is currently living in the present, unlike before the hatch incident, when he was living in the future. So the hit on the head would take him into the future, not the past. Could this be a setup for a later episode in which we see the future, not the past? This could also explain his future Charlie memory flashes, since he has already been to the future.

So did Desmond know about the girls in the hatch? He seemed pretty genuine and convinced that Charlie was going to die.

Were his visions wrong, or did he see Charlie get captured? or maybe Charlie still dies and complete Desmond's vision and Desmond didn't see the girls?

Well, like Desmond said, he sees flashes, which implies only fragments and not the whole event. He may not have known.

And what he described could still happen. :undecide:

It seems to me that Desmond's visions are a great asset that the Losties have - they've already panned out major benefits to the Flight 815-ers by providing them with Naomi and keeping Charlie, Claire and Baby Aaron from getting fried by a lightning strike. And now we see that they have helped pinpoint what needed to be done with the Looking Glass station.

But these visions also seem to have some major flaws to them, too. It's not like he's batting a thousand... Of course, who knows what's up with that? After all he's been through it's amazing he can tie his own shoelaces, let alone be able to see into the future with 100% accuracy!

interesting...

Watch the preview again...there's a clip of what looks like Desmond in A hatch, pointing a gun...

Thanks Wedestroymyths, I missed the preview! I'll have to go watch it now and look for that!

Just because Desmond didn't see everything that is going to happen doesn't mean he is lying. I think his flashes will still come true, the only part I want changed is the fact that Charlie dies. Perhaps somehow Charlie is supposed to make the sacrifice for Claire and Aaron, but he won't die. That's my wish!

How did Desmond skim over the happenings of what we saw at the end? How did he not know there would be people in the Looking glass? I guess his visions were off. Or he was lying (considering they didn't show us any visions). He would only be lying if he was involved or knew stuff about what was going on down there. Not sure I buy into that though. Just, how is there no mention of what happened... before it happened?

I think you're right, i think they didnt' show the flashback, because he wasn't telling the truth. He wanted to get Charlie down there for some reason, but why?

Or he does make the sacrifice but the button push is say, a couple seasons away? He could easily remain alive but captured for an entire season. Just a thought ;)

Desmond is a good man who, when push came to shove, couldn't go through with sending Charlie to his death. So he offered to go instead. As he said, he isn't entirely sure what his flashes mean- perhaps he keeps seeing Charlie die because he is supposed to step in and die in his place. Remember the Abraham/Isaac story from FBYE? Maybe Desmond has been wrestling with the idea that he is the "ram in the thicket." Anyway, he isn't an Other, isn't in cahoots with anyone, and is just a good man trying to figure out a difficult "gift."

What is Desmond goes down to the hatch and still takes the place of Charlie in pushing the button? and Charlie escapes.

Desmond is a good man who, when push came to shove, couldn't go through with sending Charlie to his death. So he offered to go instead.

That's a possibility too, but we don't know for sure...time will tell!

Charlie could still flip the switch but in the process, he floods and kills everyone underwater.

I dont do previews but I think that could happen in the finale.

I think Des was telling the truth and that he's conflicted about whether to save Charlie or let him die as his flashes keep showing him. It's got to be a terrible burden to see the same person die in so many different ways.

things have to happen exactly as des sees them for the outcome to stay the same. des says as much in the catch 22 episode. so what if des DID see the looking glass unflooded, DID see himself getting knocked out by charlie after offering to go in his stead, and knew that those thing had to happen in order for charlie to succeed? i don't think des was lying to charlie about what he had to do, or that charlie was gonna die. he truly believes that. des just had to do it exactly as we saw it play out (as he foresaw it) in order for the outcome not to change.

--billy

I don't know... I kind of thought from the beginning that Des was using the Claire-rescue angle in order to get Charlie to do the swim. Maybe he wasn't being truthful.

Then again, he did offer to sacrifice himself, and in that scene seemed to believe it.

Or he does make the sacrifice but the button push is say, a couple seasons away? He could easily remain alive but captured for an entire season. Just a thought ;)

This seems plausible. I could see him having a season off, and everyone thinking he is dead, then he shows up later. Meanwhile Claire will have had time to read the note.

Just because Desmond didn't see everything that is going to happen doesn't mean he is lying. I think his flashes will still come true, the only part I want changed is the fact that Charlie dies. Perhaps somehow Charlie is supposed to make the sacrifice for Claire and Aaron, but he won't die. That's my wish!


Yeah, thats my hope to....the whole Abraham thing where if Charlie is sacrificed, as Abe did with his son, that perhaps "god" will then spare him in turn, because he had faith.

In The Brig we found that that all the Dhrama people were killed in the purge. So what was Kelvin and Desmond? why weren't they killed in the purge?.I don't know about Kelvin, but Desmond wasn't even on the island during the purge! :shrug: Desmond is innocent I tell you!

No. I don't think Des was lying to Charlie. You got to remember, Des only sees flashes of what he would see with his own eyes. He can't see things that he wouldn't witness himself. If he saw Charlie in the hatch flipping the switch it MUST mean he also goes down and follows Charlie otherwise he would not see any of it in his flashes. As for whether he actually sees Charlie drown and die is another question. I am guessing he just assumes Charlie drowned once the hatch is flooded like he said during the episode.

Unfortunately, I think Charlie is still going to die the way Des said he would. He just hasn't fully played out yet.

How did Desmond skim over the happenings of what we saw at the end? How did he not know there would be people in the Looking glass? I guess his visions were off. Or he was lying (considering they didn't show us any visions). He would only be lying if he was involved or knew stuff about what was going on down there. Not sure I buy into that though. Just, how is there no mention of what happened... before it happened?

We don't know the rest of the story obviously. But at some point Charlie does "push the button." That might not happen until midway next season.

The fact that Des volunteered to "take it from here" showed that this vision is pretty accurate because he wasn't able to change it since Charlie knocked him out and carried on.

Or he does make the sacrifice but the button push is say, a couple seasons away? He could easily remain alive but captured for an entire season. Just a thought ;)

That's what I think too. If I remember correctly, we've seen most if not all of Des' flashes. But this one we didn't see. Maybe because we would have been able to tell that it doesn't happen right away? And....since Des only sees flashes, who knows if the helicopter is rescue? Or perhaps it is but as soon as it takes off it will emergency land due to other modes of transportation being brought down/to the island. I think...as usual...we don't have the whole picture. I swear Sawyer reading Watership Down was the most revealing thing....it's all a matter of perspective and we don't have perspective...yet.

No. I don't think Des was lying to Charlie. You got to remember, Des only sees flashes of what he would see with his own eyes. He can't see things that he wouldn't witness himself. If he saw Charlie in the hatch flipping the switch it MUST mean he also goes down and follows Charlie otherwise he would not see any of it in his flashes. As for whether he actually sees Charlie drown and die is another question. I am guessing he just assumes Charlie drowned once the hatch is flooded like he said during the episode.


Very astute reasoning. We still have no idea how or why Desmond's flashes work, though with next week's episode being "Through the Looking Glass," we might infer something from the line: "It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards." If Desmond became unstuck in time after turing the failsafe, his flashes could very well be his memories from the future (and thus they would have to be from his perspective).

We do know that the events of the flashes can be changed and that they can lead to weird causality problems - Charlie dies trying to save Claire from drowning, but would have been nowhere near the water if Desmond hadn't seen a vision of that scene and reacted by running to the beach with him in tow.

Will Desmond stop having flashes now that he got knocked out again like he did by the bartender?

Interesting thought...I sure hope not. But was the knockout in the pub what started his flashes? I mean, I remember the scene you're talking about, but I thought his flashes started with the anomoly/fail safe key.

i thought it was interesting that in all of the other episodes we got to "see" what desmond "saw" in his visions. last night we didn't see his vision, so how do we know if he was really telling the truth. what would he have to gain from not telling the truth? is there some bigger reason charlie needed to go to the looking glass besides pressing a button? i mean flipping the switch...pressing the button is oldschool...

I agree that something about D's version of his vision (unintentional wordplay, but I'm still impressed with myself) was fishy. He 'sees' Claire and Aaron get on a copter, but the whole idea behind flipping the switch is to summon a BOAT. He keeps telling Charlie he'll die, then offers to take his place, with rescue (and Penny) so close? There was a reason D wanted to go into the hatch, but he didn't want to reveal this by volunteering too quickly, and figured Charlie would jump at the chance to have his life 'saved' (again). I think he lied about something, and I'm starting not to trust him so much. But HE'S SOOOO HOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then how would Desmond know that Charlie had to flip anything? Desmond just said that he saw Charlie flip a switch, then he died (did he say drowning? He hasn't died yet anyway.)

hmmm good point...did Desmond say that about Charlie being in a hatch, flipping a switch, Before or After they looked at Sayid's map? I'll have to re-watch it tonight. I still think it was fishy, him offering to take on the job, though. And he did say that Charlie drowns...not gets shot....

i love desmond, but i always wonder how truthful he is.... i doubt he's teaming up with the others, but something about his demeanor last night made me question his truthfulness

i thought it was interesting that in all of the other episodes we got to "see" what desmond "saw" in his visions. last night we didn't see his vision, so how do we know if he was really telling the truth. what would he have to gain from not telling the truth? is there some bigger reason charlie needed to go to the looking glass besides pressing a button? i mean flipping the switch...pressing the button is oldschool...

But we actually DIDNT get to see all his other flashes... We never saw Charlie drown trying to save Claire, we never saw him get struck by lightening and we never saw him dying on the rocks to get the bird. The only time we saw a "flash" was when he got shot by the arrow.

He needed to be bonked out so that he could go back in the past again. That would only happen if Charlie thought he was going to die.

Maybe Des saw himself die and he knew he could convince Charlie that he needed to go to save Claire & Aaron.
Now we know changing things from a vision changes the outcome but maybe he made the whole helicopter thing up too

I don't think Des was intentionally lying or up to anything fishy. I think he was acting odd because he was genuinely troubled by the vision he had of Charlie dying, and the knowledge that there was no stopping it this time.

As for him offering to take Charlie's place, I think he did that because he's a good guy and at the last minute he couldn't go through with letting Charlie die, while knowing he has the power to stop it - even if it requires sacrifice on his part. This is the same thing that happened when he saved Charlie from the arrow in the throat. All along, he was going to let it happen, but at the last minute, he couldn't go through with it.

hmmm good point...did Desmond say that about Charlie being in a hatch, flipping a switch, Before or After they looked at Sayid's map? I'll have to re-watch it tonight. I still think it was fishy, him offering to take on the job, though. And he did say that Charlie drowns...not gets shot....


He says it before.

When he and Charlie walk up to Sayid and company and hear their plan, Charlie knows that he's the one that has to go because Desmond just told him.

No. I don't think Des was lying to Charlie. You got to remember, Des only sees flashes of what he would see with his own eyes. He can't see things that he wouldn't witness himself. If he saw Charlie in the hatch flipping the switch it MUST mean he also goes down and follows Charlie otherwise he would not see any of it in his flashes. As for whether he actually sees Charlie drown and die is another question. I am guessing he just assumes Charlie drowned once the hatch is flooded like he said during the episode.

Unfortunately, I think Charlie is still going to die the way Des said he would. He just hasn't fully played out yet.

Your right, from the flashes that we have seen - they are only things that Desmond sees. This may play out since in the preview:

it looks like Desmond in pointing a gun at someone in a hatch.

I don't think he'd go down there just to make sure Charlie drowned, so it may be part of the plan

Why do people assume that seeing into the future means you see absolutely everything? Even in present time we can't take in all the information and can miss key things like where the remote is or what the cat is doing...

Assuming that Desmond's flashes are things that he himself will see (which they have been up to now), it not only means that he will be in the hatch when Charlie pushes the button, it also means he'll be there when the helicopter comes.

What the implications are for Charlie, I'm not sure, but Desmond at least survives to get back to the island.

There's definately something Des isn't telling imo.
I don't think he's being selfish, he probably just knows that to tell Charlie the truth would change things.

I reckon what Naomi said to Charlie about him being "made a big deal of" after death will prove relevant.

I didn't get the impression that Desmond was lying or hiding anything. I might be mistaken but Desmond seems to be an honorable guy. Although It was kinda strange that he did tell Charlie that he had to do this task and then offered to do it himself.

I think that Desmond didn't have a flash. When Desmond first spoke to Charlie, he told Charlie that he didn't have a flashback. I think Desmond was telling the truth then. Desmond probably change his mind, because he thinks the only way Penny would come to the island, is if Charlie die. Did you notice how Desmond told Charlie that he saw Claire being rescue in his flash? I think Desmond only said that because he knows how much Claire mean to Charlie. Usually when Desmond have a flash, it usually shown. This time it wasn't , so I really do not think he actually had one. I think he just feels that he needs Charlie to die, in order to be with Penny. Desmond knows that Charlie can't swim, so he probably didn't think Charlie would have made it. ( didn't he suggest that Charlie use something to weigh him down?)

Another possibility is that Desmond did have a flash - of himself diving down, flipping the switch and drowning. But he chickened out and convinced Charlie to do it instead. Then, just before Charlie dived, Desmond's courage returned and that is when he offered to do it himself. When he comes to, he will think "God, what have I done?" and go after Charlie. Maybe.

I don't think Des was intentionally lying or up to anything fishy. I think he was acting odd because he was genuinely troubled by the vision he had of Charlie dying, and the knowledge that there was no stopping it this time.

As for him offering to take Charlie's place, I think he did that because he's a good guy and at the last minute he couldn't go through with letting Charlie die, while knowing he has the power to stop it - even if it requires sacrifice on his part. This is the same thing that happened when he saved Charlie from the arrow in the throat. All along, he was going to let it happen, but at the last minute, he couldn't go through with it.

To expand on this . . . in this case, I think perhaps Des felt that he knew why Charlie had to die for the rescue to take place. Because he flipped the switch, and allowed them to signal the boat. What good does a lightening strike do? Don't know. What about a drowning? Or an arrow to the throat? Don't know. But this particular case . . . drowning after turning off a radio jammer . . . made sense. So he could do both, saving Charlie and also allowing the 'projected' future to go on.

this is why I think things didn't happen as supposed to. Something changed what Desmond had envisioned. Perhaps someone alerted the others that they were heading for the Looking Glass and that's why they sent the 2 girls down there.
Is there still a mole amongst the losties? Is it Juliet?
The problem that I found with this is, while she was the first one to mention the existence of the LG, she said she had no idea where it was. Did she know Sayid had some blue prints about it? Other question who and how could someone have alerted the others in such a short time? Where is that walkie talkie now?????

Of course there's still another simpler explanation. Charlie's drowning takes place later on. Somehow he (with some help) get rid of the girls and then proceed to his suicidal mission.

I really don't think that the vision is wrong at all. Desmond has flashes and then tries to put them together. Charlie is still alive, probably still needs to flip that switch but it's just not happening now. For all we know, this will happen at the end of season 4 and Charlie will be down there for a season. Then he flips the switch, drowns leaving and at some point Aaron and Claire go in a helicopter. Desmond is just trying to logically put together the flashes but he has no idea about how long is may take.

Des only gets flashes, not the whole story. so it would kinda make sense that he isn't always right. also the slightest change and everything else changes.

Des smiled when he had his Flashes. To me it was like Dam this little ex junky is going to save everyone he is the key to getting home.

I also think if Charlie does something to sacrifice himself and somehow lives that he will be absolved and no longer have the fear of death hunting him down.

My theory is that if Desmond saves Charlie, then what happens in the flashes will come to pass. If he doesn't save Charlie, then the outcome changes.

Or I could be completely wrong and Desmond knew the women were there and Charlie could still get shot or something and fall into the water and drown.

let's remember in "FLASHES Before Your Eyes" Antique shop lady was there to send a specific message. Given the ability you can try to postpone or alter circumstances leading to one's destiny, but ultimately you cannot change what is meant to be. I think Des has gotten the point by now.
It's been said numerous times by people in Des's FLASHES that he is destined for something great. He HAS to be on that island to save the lostees. Whether he suceeds this time, keeps some details and/or truths to himself- he is ultimately there for the GOOD- That is his destiny. This seems to be the message we are given through seeing his real past as well as his FLASHES.
Given all the time and effort TPTB have put into showing this to us, why we doubt it now?
100%
To expand on this . . . in this case, I think perhaps Des felt that he knew why Charlie had to die for the rescue to take place. Because he flipped the switch, and allowed them to signal the boat. What good does a lightening strike do? Don't know. What about a drowning? Or an arrow to the throat? Don't know. But this particular case . . . drowning after turning off a radio jammer . . . made sense. So he could do both, saving Charlie and also allowing the 'projected' future to go on.

Exactly-none of Charlie's other deaths would have amounted to anything except a dead Charlie. When Des saved him in the past, maybe he wasn't "changing" destiny-maybe the savings WERE destiny. Otherwise Charlie, the best swimmer of the group, would not be able to leave this (or that) life with a feeling of redemption and purpose----as a hero flipping the switch.

Anyone think that maybe Desmond saw Charlie die on the way to the tower instead?

Anyone think that maybe Desmond saw Charlie die on the way to the tower instead?Only he knew about an "underwater hatch," flipping a switch and drowning, all before the Juliet/Jack/Sayid discussion about same...

I am of the mind that the things Desmond saw will happen, but not yet. He just assumed it would be at that moment, he was wrong, obviously.

Desmond didn't disagree with the idea that the Looking Glass station would be flooded. Presumably the Others couldn't drain it and station people down there in a couple days, so Des, Charlie's and the rest's actions in real time after the flash couldn't have impacted it (unless time travel, of course). So we have two options:

A) the flash was wildly inaccurate
B) Desmond is lying to someone about something

B encompasses that Des may be an Other or working for them, or may have wanted to get Charlie down there/willing to die to save Claire for his own reasons, or may have just had a really fuzzy flash and didn't want to admit it.

What do you think?

So you think his vision was wildly inaccurate because he didnt disagree with the fact that the station may be flooded? That's a bit of a stretch.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you've said, but I disagree.
Des said that the station would be flooded (that Charlie would drown) AFTER he flicked the switch. Perhaps that switch is what floods the station, thereby sending some distress signal which brings rescue to the island?

Surely, if he saw a yellow blinking light and a switch, and Charlie flipping the switch, he would have been able to tell whether the place that Charlie was in was full of water?

There's another possibility, of course- he was withholding the information that it wasn't flooded, because he knew it would go down just like he said anyways- Charlie might just have to unexpectedly deal with the Others down there first, and Des has a history of not telling people everything when he knows they need to act on instinct. So maybe Charlie will flip the switch down there eventually anyways, and then drown trying to escape.

So why didn't Des tell Sayid that Juliet was lying when she said it was flooded?

the flash was wildly inaccurate


I dont think it has to be inaccurate, could just be incomplete. Maybe charlie does still drown after flipping the switch. The one curious thing I found though, was that we didnt get to "see" Desmonds flash. Dont we usually get to see his flashes as he is having them? This does make me question his honesty.

I don't remember him saying it was flooded...
Sayid mentioned that there was a "loading" something, where subs would breach and thus have oxygen when he was discussing it with Jack.
Unless i'm not remembering correctly, I don't recall the station being flooded BEFORE Charlie got there..
100%
I dont think it has to be inaccurate, could just be incomplete. Maybe charlie does still drown after flipping the switch. The one curious thing I found though, was that we didnt get to "see" Desmonds flash. Dont we usually get to see his flashes as he is having them? This does make me question his honesty.

We didn't see the first two.

Juliet said that the station was flooded years ago, from an accident. And that's why Charlie would drown coming back and Jack called it a suicide mission- because there was no air left down there for him to breath before he came back up. If he really could hold his breath for four minutes (and given how we saw him act when he was just about to get to the moon pool, I doubt he can) he could have possibly made it to the switch, but not out from under the station and back up.

Juliet said that the station was flooded years ago, from an accident. And that's why Charlie would drown coming back and Jack called it a suicide mission- because there was no air left down there for him to breath before he came back up. If he really could hold his breath for four minutes (and given how we saw him act when he was just about to get to the moon pool, I doubt he can) he could have possibly made it to the switch, but not out from under the station and back up.


Well, Juliet said she'd never been down there and didn't know anyone who had - which means Ben hadn't been there either, so on whose word are we believing this?

K, doesn't really matter to my theory whether Juliet was lying to the Losties or if she was passing off one of Ben's lies to her- the question is still why Desmond didn't question the claim that the station was flooded. I mean, it's pretty clear from his actions and comments that he doesn't want Charlie to die, and if they knew that the station had air, presumably it would have made it easier to come up with a plan for him to survive.

Of course, there's also the question of whether Des's flash showed that there were people down there.... I mean, that would have been useful information.

K, doesn't really matter to my theory whether Juliet was lying to the Losties or if she was passing off one of Ben's lies to her- the question is still why Desmond didn't question the claim that the station was flooded. I mean, it's pretty clear from his actions and comments that he doesn't want Charlie to die, and if they knew that the station had air, presumably it would have made it easier to come up with a plan for him to survive.

Of course, there's also the question of whether Des's flash showed that there were people down there.... I mean, that would have been useful information.

Keep in mind, they are just "flashes", he's admitted that to us before - he doesn't see everything. Keep in mind, that he could have been keeping his mouth shut, because Sayid and Jack don't know about his flashes as of yet - he couldn't very well say "Well, no actually, Charlie is going, because i've seen it. And he'll be fine - there's air for him to breathe once he gets there " - that would change things.
And quite possibly he DID know Charlie would hit him after he offered to take his place. Perhaps Charlie would have chickened out, had he not knocked Des out and gained his resolution.

Maybe Des assumed that Charlie died in his flash because Charlie never comes back up out of the water.

Also, did the Others really believe that the underwater station had been flooded or was this something Ben was lying to them about? And are the people in the station part of the Others or are they that "other" group of people that are on the island who aren't Others and aren't Losties. That would explain why Ben wanted his people to think it was flooded.

Okay, so at this point we have this spectrum of options:

A. Desmond "knew" the hatch was flooded
B. Desmond "knew" the hatch wasn't flooded
1. and he "knew" people were down there
2. and he "knew" no people were down there
C. Desmond didn't know whether or not the hatch was flooded

So, if A, then he wasn't lying to the Losties by omission or commission, but his vision was inaccurate. This seems a valid option to me.

If B1, then he's lying, and there's a sinister edge to it because he sent Charlie into danger (this is the option that makes it seem likely that he might be working for the Others). This means that Des's vision was accurate and his not mentioning it to the Losties could be slightly explained by saying he didn't want to reveal his flashes to the rest of the Losties, but I don't think he'd take that kind of risk with Charlie's life just to have him prove himself to himself I think this is a valid option but it paints Des in a bad light.

If B2, he's lying, but maybe he thought that Charlie needed to make this kind of decision for himself, prove it to himself, etc. This means that Des's vision may have been accurate but not interpreted properly- maybe he just didn't see anybody else down there in the vision. Des not mentioning this to the Losties could be partially explained by saying he didn't want to reveal his flashes to the rest of the Losties and he thought that Charlie needed to prove something to himself. This is actually the most interesting option to me, and it might be valid.

If C, then he saw Charlie flick a switch and then drown, but he couldn't tell if Charlie was surrounded by water when he flicked the switch. This doesn't seem like a valid option to me- his visions come fast, but they are pictures, and he wouldn't miss a detail that big.

He chickened out and changed things when he offered to go down instead of Charlie. He hasn't been able to sacrifice Charlie yet despite every temptation.

How did Desmond skim over the happenings of what we saw at the end? How did he not know there would be people in the Looking glass? I guess his visions were off. Or he was lying (considering they didn't show us any visions). He would only be lying if he was involved or knew stuff about what was going on down there. Not sure I buy into that though. Just, how is there no mention of what happened... before it happened?

As Desmond himself said, "It doesn't work that way."

He saw a flash of machinery, a light, a switch. He saw the switch being flipped. THEN he saw Charlie--drowning. Because it was an underwater hatch and because he saw Charlie drowning, he simply thought that the hatch was water-filled. When all you see is quick flashes (and we were shown how quick they are in Catch 22), you don't catch every detail. Charlie's drowning happens AFTER the switch is flipped. Time between one and the other? Desmond doesn't KNOW--and neither do we!

OR, if you buy spoilers,
maybe Charlie doesn't flip the switch till AFTER the hatch is flooded by Mikhail (or whoever)?

Let's not jump to conclusions. Desmond saw a room of machinery--really fast. He saw a light and a switch--really fast. He saw Charlie flip the switch--really fast. He saw Charlie drowning--really fast. Again, the time that lapsed between these events is UNKNOWN. Desmond's assuming they all came one on top of another. But that ain't necessarily so. (Claire's rescue helicopter certainly wasn't coming at the exact same time, after all!)

This makes em realize how scary it must be for Desmond to have visions like this. Something just invading your brain like that, and always unsettling images. Poor Desmond.

This makes em realize how scary it must be for Desmond to have visions like this. Something just invading your brain like that, and always unsettling images. Poor Desmond.
Exactly, Desmundo. And when/if Charlie's gone, something/someone else may well replace him in Desmond's flashes. So what's scarier--facing certain death, or facing a lifetime where you never know when the next flash will come? Pretty hard to live a life with those things popping up any ol' time! And every time, you get, like, 3 or 4 out of 100 pieces of a "puzzle." Crucial pieces, yes. But so much of the coming attractions is left out. And the 3 or 4 pieces are ALL you have to work with--and you may well work them all wrong!

These flashes are horrible for Charlie, no question. But people aren't really considering how horrible they are for Desmond, too! :frown:

Surely, if he saw a yellow blinking light and a switch, and Charlie flipping the switch, he would have been able to tell whether the place that Charlie was in was full of water?Maybe it gets flooded before he flips the switch.

So why didn't Des tell Sayid that Juliet was lying when she said it was flooded?Didn't Des walk up after Juliet had said this? I got the impression he never heard that part.

I don't think that Desmond's flahes are exactly seeing the future. The only flash that we got to see had an inconsistency in it - Charlie was both alive and dead.

Desmond has said before that if he tells people what is about to happen it "changes the picture on the box." This could be stated as, knowledge of the future change the future -which is exactly what Desmond has (maybe) done. So what if Desmond's flashes of the future include his future knowledge of the flashes?

I'm not exactly sure if I am explaining this properly, so I'll give an example. In the 'Charlie gets shot with an arrow flash,' Desmond sees the cable on the beach, the helicopter ... then he sees his own precognition of Charlie dying, and then he sees Charlie alive, meaning Des chose to save him.

The 'future' of that flash would not have happened unless he had the flash in the first place (as he organize the trip that made it unfold the way it did). It seems as if the Looking Glass flash is similar in nature.

--you can skip this part if you do not want to read my wild speculation--

I'm starting to think that when Des 'time-traveled' he briefly shifted into the alternate time-space that Jacob possibly inhabits and his flashes are Jacobian projections meant to influence the events transpiring on the island. To what end, I haven't the foggiest :confused:

If I remember correctly Desmond told him he was surrounded by women before he flipped the switch. Someone should go back and rewatch that sene.

I rewatched for exactly this reason. Turns out he said "surrounded by equipment." Sounded like women, though.

It is important to remember that we have no reason to think that Desmond's flashes are actually visions of the future. There is no reason to think that these visions are not in fact being imposed on Des by some source, either by the island or the others or someone else, in order to get Desmond to act in a certain way. After all, events have always played out differently then Des saw them playing out (as far as we know from the flashes that we got to see), so how can you say that he was seeing the future if those events never took place?

As far as we can tell, none of Desmond's visions have played out the way he saw them. On the contrary, things always go differently then Desmond foresees. The reasons the flashes don't play out as they appear seems to be that Desmond receives the flashes, and then interferes with fate before they have a chance to play out. However, how can you say that the Desmond's flashes predict the future when the future that they predict does not occur? The flashes, in predicting the future, don't take into account the effect that will have on causality by appearing to Desmond? Saying that Desmond interfering (say, building the lightning rod) is what causes them not to occur as predicted is short-sighted. It is not just Desmond's actions, but also the visions that supply the basis for these actions, that interferes with the way the visions are supposed to play out. Not only that, but there is no basis for saying that, had Desmond not interfered, the visions would have played out as predicted. There is no reason to think that lightning would have struck charlie had the rod not been constructed, or the arrow would have pierced his neck had Des not saved him.

If Desmond's visions were actually predicting the future, then he would not be able to take actions which cause the visions not to occur. If he is able to make an event not occur as foreseen, then the vision wasn't really ever of the the future. This seems like a technicality of language, but it should be explored much more. If the flashes aren't truly predicting the future, what are they? A tool used to influence the way events play our for the losties? It's hard to think that Desmond gets flashes of events that will occur if he doesn't interfere with them. If this were the case, he wouldn't be so much seeing the future as hearing a call from some unknown source which is trying avoid a likely turn of events. No matter how you look at it, Des isn't seeing the future; his flashes are something else entirely.

What I am arguing here is difficult for me to understand and verbalize. I am just trying to call attention to the nature and reliability of Desmond's visions.

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but I think Desmond is wrong when it comes to his visions. He has said that he is seeing Charlie die because he is "supposed to die." However, I am starting to think that he is having these visions because he is supposed to be saving Charlie's life, so that Charlie can complete his most important tast yet of flipping the switch in the looking glass to save everyone. Just think, had Desmond not saved Charlie all of those times, then Charlie would not be able to fullfill his destiny of doing his part to save everyone. Thoughts?

It's possible that in Des' mind, Charlie is "supposed" to die, to bring him and Pen together, maybe to get the Losties rescued, etc, and that the Island or whoever else is responsible for the visions really wants these events to happen. But I think that the true consequneces of Charlie's death for the rest of the world, or maybe the "opposition" to the hostiles/Dharma, would be quite different - literally save the junkie save the world. And so Des is caught - those seductive visions of Charlie's death and his own redemption by saving the losties and reuniting with Pen, or rescuing Charlie for the rest of their lives and keping the world safe. Desmond offers to take Charlies place because neither of his options are good - and if Charlie lives and saves humanity and Des dies saving the losties, then ( almost) everybody wins.

2 facts:

1) Desmond see flashes only if Charlie death should happend
2) He talk about undewater action before Sayid told about hatch

Thats why I think he is not lying.

Edit: I was wrong with (1) - we know that Des also have flashes about "Locke Speech" in 3x03 where Charlie is not dying

i see no contradiction in what desmond said and what happened

charlie will die when he dives and pushes the button. it doesn't mean he can't meet other people there

i see no contradiction in what desmond said and what happened

charlie will die when he dives and pushes the button. it doesn't mean he can't meet other people there
I agree charlie turns off the light then the room is flooded, that is what des saw and that is what happened end of story. des has always said it is flashes not the whole thing in one shot, he possibly didn't see anything about charlie being tortured because des didn't see it when it happened, he also didn't see mikhail pull the pin, so how could he have known it would happen.