Was that the same place and time that we saw in FBYE?
(Notice the news stand behind Charlie)
The scene where Desmond comes out to find Charlie playing the guitar on the side walk, only to have it start raining? If so, when we saw it this time, where was Desmond?

I caught that too.... Desmond doesn't appear to be there.. This could be a nod to the fact that things are playing out differently..

I really was scanning the background for Des. Never saw him though. I will have to rewatch it later.

I was wondering the same thing. I wonder if the people standing there watching him play were also the ones watching in FBYE. This really makes things interesting regarding Desmond's turning of the failsafe key and what really happened.

Not sure if it was supposed to be the exact same moment as in FBYE. We'd have to do a comparison of the people standing and watching as well.

Since Charlie was a street busker, it's likely he played in that same spot many times.

I too recognized the place, and was looking for the Hieronymous Pace (or was it Charlie Hieronymous?) placard from before.

Uh--it rains in England a lot. I doubt this was the same day. And penyours is right that Charlie probably played in that spot regularly.

Okay, what if this was how it went before Desmond "went back in time". After Des went back in time, he changed Charlie's route, so Nadia didn't get saved. Her purse and perhaps identity and possibly a large sum of $$ got stolen, which could have meant that now she couldn't afford to hire a house inspector. Which would mean Locke wouldn't be there on that assignment, which means he might never have seen his father in the car, never found out that his father was alive again. Then his proposal to Helen might have worked out, so she wouldn't have been somewhere else that we're about to find out she was at a crucial moment. Oh boy.

I mentioned that in the other Charlie and Desmond thread. Also neat that Charlie saved Desmond's Nadia!

I used to want Charlie dead, but I think I had a change of heart today.

I thought it was the same scene done without Desmond and that it may be a clue that Desmond's memories are not as accurate as he thinks. I don't think he and Charlie really ever met before the island. That could bode well for Charlie's survival.

I think that scene was what originally happened. When Desmond saw Charlie there and started flipping out in Flashes Before Your Eyes, he'd been sent back in time and was reliving the whole thing.

Uh--it rains in England a lot. I doubt this was the same day. And penyours is right that Charlie probably played in that spot regularly.

If that's the case, then why did they go out of their way to make it look so similar? Same clothes, same song, rain, same spot in London. They could have had him play a different song, but I think they wanted you to wonder if it was the same memory.

If that's the case, then why did they go out of their way to make it look so similar? Same clothes, same song, rain, same spot in London. They could have had him play a different song, but I think they wanted you to wonder if it was the same memory.

Maybe because Charlie was a poor street busker so he only owned one set of clothes, Wonderwall was the only song he knew how to play, and well it rains a lot in London ;);):biggrin::biggrin:

Actually I do think the writers are playing mind games with us with all the similarities, and I do want to rewatch the FBYE scene to compare.

The clothes weren't the same though. And he was playing outside the Covent Garden Underground station instead of the Widmore building. Covent Garden is filled with theatres and a shopping area. I have no idea where the Widmore building is, but that's not a place I would expect it to be.

Is there a screen cap from Flashes that we can compare?

And he was playing outside the Covent Garden Underground station instead of the Widmore building. Covent Garden is filled with theatres and a shopping area. I have no idea where the Widmore building is, but that's not a place I would expect it to be.

This crossed my mind as well, but the recreation of brixton station was far from accurate so I'm not sure how much weight we can put to Widmore's building being near Covent Garden.

screen cap of FBYE
http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x08-flashes/2/normal_flashes-cap401.jpg

The outfit is different. His t-shirt in tonight's episode had pink in it.

From FBYE:
http://lost.about.com/od/photosbyepisode/ig/Lost-3x8-Photos/Charlie-Plays-Picture.-06G.htm

I thought it was the same scene done without Desmond and that it may be a clue that Desmond's memories are not as accurate as he thinks. I don't think he and Charlie really ever met before the island. That could bode well for Charlie's survival.


Your forgetting the Charlie who remembered that is the charlie on the Island..not the Charlie sitting on the bottom of the Ocean dead.

Whatever Desmond changed caused the plane to not get trapped in the void and crash on the Island.

I was wondering the same thing! It really begs the question about Des' visions, doesn't it? I'm so confused!!!! :confused:

Here's a few caps of the crowd from Desmond's flashtravel. No caps up yet for GH though.

FBYE street crowd (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1250-400.html)
FBYE more (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1250-433.html)
and more (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1250-398.html)
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Interesting that the lyrics of Wonderwall so perfectly fit the Desmond as savior storyline. Now, "and maybe....you're gonna be the one who saves me" takes on a whole new meaning. Charlie is the hero this time, on island and off.

The clothes weren't the same though. And he was playing outside the Covent Garden Underground station instead of the Widmore building. Covent Garden is filled with theatres and a shopping area. I have no idea where the Widmore building is, but that's not a place I would expect it to be.


Good catch, verily. I was going to run my tapes and compare them Now, there's no reason and I'm not so danged confused. ;)

Okay, what if this was how it went before Desmond "went back in time". After Des went back in time, he changed Charlie's route, so Nadia didn't get saved. Her purse and perhaps identity and possibly a large sum of $$ got stolen, which could have meant that now she couldn't afford to hire a house inspector. Which would mean Locke wouldn't be there on that assignment, which means he might never have seen his father in the car, never found out that his father was alive again. Then his proposal to Helen might have worked out, so she wouldn't have been somewhere else that we're about to find out she was at a crucial moment. Oh boy.

Well, except that Locke met Helen in a support group that he was going to because his father conned him out of a kidney. So if he'd never met up with his dad, he probably wouldn't have met Helen.

And Charlie was clean-shaven in FBYE, but had a bit of stubble in this flashback.

I noticed enough differences watching it the first time to wonder whether it was intended to be interpreted as the same scene. They certainly made it ambiguous in the way they made the first shots of many episodes. In any case, the choice of the song, specifically the line "and maybe, you're gonna be the one that saves me," was the point...foreshadowing the scene in the outrigger with Desmond.

I know its been mentioned already, but I like in FBYE that Charlies singing the lyrics "and maybe...yoiure gonna be the one that saves me" with Desmond in the audience. One of my favorite scenes. Im glad that were seeing it again from another perspective.

So cool.

Goobers! are you all serious!? of course its suppose to be the same moment of time... clearly they were telling us time has changed by showing us a timeline in which desmond does not bump into charlie... or at least showing it from charlie's perspective... i mean the same people in the same clothes are in the background for goodness sake... look at the screen caps from each episode found on page 2 of this thread.
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nevermind! i'm the goober.... both the screencaps were from FBYEs.... sorry
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but i still think it a good story if it was suppose to be the same scene.... does anyone have a screencap from tonight?

Before Desmond "went back", he didn't actually interact with Charlie.... and I just figured they showed enough of the scene to imply that it was the same day - but cut it off before we saw Desmond going by.

I mentioned that in the other Charlie and Desmond thread. Also neat that Charlie saved Desmond's Nadia!

He saved Sayid's Nadia. Desmond had Penny.

I noticed enough differences watching it the first time to wonder whether it was intended to be interpreted as the same scene. They certainly made it ambiguous in the way they made the first shots of many episodes. In any case, the choice of the song, specifically the line "and maybe, you're gonna be the one that saves me," was the point...foreshadowing the scene in the outrigger with Desmond.

http://lost.cubit.net/viewEgg.php?id=289

Yeah, they are definately not the same scene, although they do look similar...

http://lost.cubit.net/viewEgg.php?id=289

Yeah, they are definately not the same scene, although they do look similar...

Take a look at the pictures, the one where you can see the stores across the street.
The store sign in the middle reads UndercounG not UndergrounD

I may be seeing things (or looking too hard), but in the scene where it started raining as Charlie played guitar I could have SWORN that Naomi was watching him play. She was on the left of the screen, with long hair, and I think, as it rained, she put something over her head.

Am I crazy and seeing things?

yeh someone else posted that screen cap and it was so not naomi. I feel that this is simply another day in the life of a street performer in London and not necessarily the same moment from FBYE. Nothing matches up. The timeline adjustment thing is a nice idea but I tend to stick with the easier explanation until there is irrefutable evidence to the contrary. I dont see any impressive evidence that would suggest this is the same time and place in which Des bumped into Charlie.

One of the few things we know Desmond did differently during his flashback was to interact with Charlie just before the shower. In

Charlie in Greatest Hits
http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x21-hits/normal_3x21-hitscap646.jpg

Charlie in Flashes Before Your Eyes
http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x08-flashes/2/normal_flashes-cap399.jpg

He is wearing different clothes. But if you look here (http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x08-flashes/2/normal_flashes-cap397.jpg), you'll see the "NEWS" sign over Desmond's shoulder is the same one as behind Charlie in Greatest Hits, which means it was on the same corner.

Same song (Wonderwall), same location, same rainshower out of nowhere. But no Desmond and diferent outfit.

So, is the clothing a continuity error and Desmond's "time travel" was just in his head, or did Charlie give a rendition of Wonderwall on the same corner on two different days that just happened to have a freak summer shower?

I thought it was meant to be the same scene as in FBYE. Was Charlie wearing the same thing? He was definitely playing the same song. Now the only question is where was Des?

I think this is the same corner too. But don't street preformers have certain locations as they kind of claim as their own? Charlie may have been "working" that corner for awhile. As for the rain, I thought the scene took place in England and it rains there all the time from what I understand. Or, Des may have changed the past. I can't decide on this one.

I think the song is a major hint that we are to assume it's the same day as Desmond's 'flashback'. People remember that much more than whether his shirt is red or grey.

I'm chalking that up as a continuity error or a subtle hint that Desmond's 'flashback' wasn't 100% accurate.

I was just waiting to see Des come up to Charlie.

I think the song is a major hint that we are to assume it's the same day as Desmond's 'flashback'. People remember that much more than whether his shirt is red or grey.

I'm chalking that up as a continuity error or a subtle hint that Desmond's 'flashback' wasn't 100% accurate.


I thought TPTB said that depending on the persons memories the flashbacks change ever so slightly. Maybe from Charlies memories, he didnt remember the dejected man leaving the Windmore offices, he just remembered the people enjoying the show, and the rain, then of course Nadia calling him a hero. The fact that he could not remember exactly what he was wearing was inconsequential, it was a memory, he knew he was wearing clothing, and that was the important part. I think it was on purpose, he would not have had any memory of Desmond unless Des really did talk to him in the past, which I don't think happened I think it was a lucid dream, but I thinkDes did see charlie, and remembered the guy playing guitar on the corner, and then in the dream put 1 and 2 together and talked to him.

Im not sure what we're supposed to get out of that...perhaps Desmond saw him in a sort of alternate reality/parrallel universe sorta thing. It's hard to get my head around.

To me it seems likely Charlie was singing the same song on different days. Not unlikely that he'd do it in the sme spot, though I'm not positive it is the same (Maybe it's the same spot from a different angle). Most of the time people who sing or play for donations tend to go to the same spot. At least they do in my city. And I don't think sudden showers are unusual in London.

Same song, same corner, and the shower, too...? Too much coincidence. I think the writers were setting that up for us to see it as the same day, but no Desmond.

In the Greatest Hits scene, I think the girl on the left with the grey hat over her eyes, is Naomi. I looks exactly like her.

well...a street performer is territorial. Same corner, same country where it rains a lot, singing the same song. That sounds like any and likely most days in the life of your typical London street player.

Knowing how the producers like to make us work around things like this, I still say that there is no evidence to suggest that this is even the same memory. I believe its just another day in the life of Charlie and nothing more.

THe time/space continuum thingy or parallel universe dealio is ok but the easiest explanation is simply...the most believable. This is a Charlie memory from an entirely different day.

The Flashbacks are from the perspective of the rememberer, not a 3rd person (though the view is 3rd person). So if Charlie were on the corner of the block that the Windmore building is on, and Des had come out from his meeting with Mr. Windmore, Charlie would not have remembered a dejected man walking past his playing, he would have remembered the important things, like the people listening to them, he also would not have remembered the exact outfit he was wearing, just that he had clothing on. TPTB have said in the past that the discrepancies in flashbacks are due to the person remembering them and or their mental state at the time (though if forced I could not show were I remembered reading that, though I think it was a podcast).

As for the conversation between Des and Charlie? It only happened in Desmond's head/another alternate time, but not in the real past that Charlie experienced.

There you go simple and plausible...

even more simple....different memory, different day. I like the idea of all of this time continuum parallel stuff but Charlie likely played that corner on a rainy day singing Oasis several times a week.

That is the easiest explanation and one that I am inclined to believe. Outside of this episode I doubt that memory will be served up again so all we will have is speculation but still...until there is anything to provide strong evidence to the contrary, I am sticking with the simplest explanation of all.

I wont mind being proven wrong but oh what a headache that would bring me. All of this parallel dimension stuff is tough to wrap my mind around.

Why does this need an explanation?

http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x08-flashes/2/normal_flashes-cap401.jpg

http://lost.about.com/od/photosbyepisode/ig/Lost-3x8-Photos/Charlie-Plays-Picture.-06G.htm

The same people were watching charlie in both screencaps, one from FBYE and the other from last night. Notice the guy in the gray suit and the woman with the black coat on, as well as the woman with the pink shopping bag. This was CLEARLY meant to represent the same moment in time.

you wouldnt believe how many threads and theories there are on it. It never occured to me it was the same memory as Desmond. It only seemed to me to be poor ole Charlie playing in the rain again from some other day in his past.

Still who knows...the easier the explanation, the more likely but when it comes to this show I am batting around a hundred...which means its time for me to be traded off to some farm team...

Why does this need an explanation?


Because everone seems to be convinced that this is another day, not the same one he saw Des on. I think it is, though I don't know what impact it would have on the plot. I just wanted to share why Charlie would have no memory of Des, but Des would have a memory of Charlie from the same day.

Same song sung, same corner with a rain shower right at the end of his song. Awfully big coincidence if you ask me.

well first you are right. Its worth some curiosity for sure. The producers really now how to make us think twice over the little things and usually we find our eggs as a result.

Still a street performer sings the same songs on the same corner for days on end. There is nothing to tie this day to the day in Desmond's memory. But again, I like that the producers are making us think about this with the whole memories from "different perspectives" angle.

Im not sure what we're supposed to get out of that...perhaps Desmond saw him in a sort of alternate reality/parrallel universe sorta thing. It's hard to get my head around.


Yeah, the parallel reality thing is kinda picking up on my radar recently. Even the numerous deaths that Desmond has witnessed of Charlie could be many different deaths of many different alternate Charlies in many different realities -- none of them could apply to our Charlie.And the Charlie Des saw in his past may not be our Charlie either.

Might even explain why the losties were found dead in the middle of the ocean and yet are alive on the island. Two different realities with some individuals(Naomi) crossing over into the other reality.

***Mod edited to remove fanfic***

I don't think it is the same day. The background looks different and he's wearing different clothes. Surely if it was meant to be the same day they would make sure that Charlie was at least wearing the same clothes as in FBYE.

Plus in one of the podcasts (I think it was the one after FBYE) they said that Desmond's time travel/dream took place in 1996. I remember way back in Solitary that Sayid said he had been holding onto the photo of Nadia for seven years, which would make it 1997 when he helped Nadia to escape. So I don't think she could have been in London in 1996 because she hadn't escaped Iraq yet.

http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x08-flashes/2/normal_flashes-cap401.jpg

http://lost.about.com/od/photosbyepisode/ig/Lost-3x8-Photos/Charlie-Plays-Picture.-06G.htm

The same people were watching charlie in both screencaps, one from FBYE and the other from last night. Notice the guy in the gray suit and the woman with the black coat on, as well as the woman with the pink shopping bag. This was CLEARLY meant to represent the same moment in time.

Both those pictures you have linked are labeled as being from FBYE. In the greatest hits, Charlie is not wearing a tie and has a red t-shirt on.

So was that really Nadia?

Okay - I think we've established that Charlie is wearing different clothes in the two busking scenes. Now what?

More evidence that Desmond and Charlie's flashbacks occurred on different days...

Desmond's flashback occurs in 1996.
Nadia doesn't leave Iraq until 1997.
Charlie saves Nadia from a mugging in his flashback.
Ergo, Charlie's flashback occurs after 1997 and therefore after Desmond's flashback.

Lostpedia Timeline (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Timeline:pre-crash#1996)

I think the song is a major hint that we are to assume it's the same day as Desmond's 'flashback'. People remember that much more than whether his shirt is red or grey.

I'm chalking that up as a continuity error or a subtle hint that Desmond's 'flashback' wasn't 100% accurate.

I think, somehow, that buskers sing the same song more than once in their 'career'. They also tend to hang around their 'patch' as busking spots are sought after.

One of the few things we know Desmond did differently during his flashback was to interact with Charlie just before the shower. In

Charlie in Greatest Hits
http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x21-hits/normal_3x21-hitscap646.jpg

Charlie in Flashes Before Your Eyes
http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x08-flashes/2/normal_flashes-cap399.jpg

He is wearing different clothes. But if you look here (http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x08-flashes/2/normal_flashes-cap397.jpg), you'll see the "NEWS" sign over Desmond's shoulder is the same one as behind Charlie in Greatest Hits, which means it was on the same corner.

Same song (Wonderwall), same location, same rainshower out of nowhere. But no Desmond and diferent outfit.

So, is the clothing a continuity error and Desmond's "time travel" was just in his head, or did Charlie give a rendition of Wonderwall on the same corner on two different days that just happened to have a freak summer shower?

There are plenty of errors in Lost..but the question--Why doesnt Charlie remember Desmond is one that has been asked

No way they are gonna screw that up Different clothes--different people there.

It was a different date. Lost said they wanted to create a TIVO moment with The Jacob scene. they must have done the same with this. TIVO shows it was not the same day. If it is..they are idiots.

I have an answer to why Charlie doesnt remember desmond

Its because the Charlie that saw Desmond is on the bottom of the ocean with the rest of 815. Just as Desmond changed something that allowed penny to have the picture Desmond had in the hatch. He also changed something thast altered 815 so it did not get caught in the void and crash on the Island

2 photos. 2 Charlies. The one on the island is the Charlie from the original timeline who never saw desmond. The one on the bottom of the ocean is the one who did.

Desmonds Time travel also explains how Penny knows where desmond is. I have the theory spelled out in the theory section if you want to know why the original Desmond still entered the race and crashed on the island. In short--its the same explanation of why charlie doesnt remember desmond.

There are plenty of errors in Lost..but the question--Why doesnt Charlie remember Desmond is one that has been asked

No way they are gonna screw that up Different clothes--different people there.

It was a different date. Lost said they wanted to create a TIVO moment with The Jacob scene. they must have done the same with this. TIVO shows it was not the same day. If it is..they are idiots.

I have an answer to why Charlie doesnt remember desmond

Its because the Charlie that saw Desmond is on the bottom of the ocean with the rest of 815. Just as Desmond changed something that allowed penny to have the picture Desmond had in the hatch. He also changed something thast altered 815 so it did not get caught in the void and crash on the Island

2 photos. 2 Charlies. The one on the island is the Charlie from the original timeline who never saw desmond. The one on the bottom of the ocean is the one who did.

Desmonds Time travel also explains how Penny knows where desmond is. I have the theory spelled out in the theory section if you want to know why the original Desmond still entered the race and crashed on the island. In short--its the same explanation of why charlie doesnt remember desmond.

A simpler answer would be that Charlie dismissed Des as a loon and just forgot about him.

Around the time of FBYE, the writers mentioned that time was not linear in that episode. That the events of the past were changed by knowledge of the future. (According to the producers, Desmond did really travel back in time, and the events he relived occurred in 1996.)

So I am wondering if somehow, Desmonds messing with fate has changed the past for Charlie too. Maybe it was the same day, but the outcome was slightly different. When he sang the lyrics to Wonderwall in FBYE, it reflected how future Desmond was gonna be the one to save him. But now that fate has been altered, somehow Charlie, past and present, has become a different, stronger person. One capable of doing the saving of someone else.

Im not sure what we're supposed to get out of that...perhaps Desmond saw him in a sort of alternate reality/parrallel universe sorta thing. It's hard to get my head around.

That's what I'm thinking. Either that or Charlie doesn't remember the encounter in the same way that Desmond does.

There are plenty of errors in Lost..but the question--Why doesnt Charlie remember Desmond is one that has been asked

No way they are gonna screw that up Different clothes--different people there.

It was a different date. Lost said they wanted to create a TIVO moment with The Jacob scene. they must have done the same with this. TIVO shows it was not the same day. If it is..they are idiots.

I have an answer to why Charlie doesnt remember desmond

Its because the Charlie that saw Desmond is on the bottom of the ocean with the rest of 815. Just as Desmond changed something that allowed penny to have the picture Desmond had in the hatch. He also changed something thast altered 815 so it did not get caught in the void and crash on the Island

2 photos. 2 Charlies. The one on the island is the Charlie from the original timeline who never saw desmond. The one on the bottom of the ocean is the one who did.

Desmonds Time travel also explains how Penny knows where desmond is. I have the theory spelled out in the theory section if you want to know why the original Desmond still entered the race and crashed on the island. In short--its the same explanation of why charlie doesnt remember desmond.

That is the best theory I've heard in some time. Thanks!

I don't know if anyone's posted this screencap, I thought it would be appropriate to post it in this thread.

http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/


It's Dark Ufo's website. If you scroll down to the pic of Charlie Guitar, as he's putting it in the case theres a sticker on it that says "I was here moments ago".

Very cool easter egg.

No way they are gonna screw that up Different clothes--different people there...
It was a different date...
2 photos. 2 Charlies...

I wholeheartedly agree with the concept. I came to the forums looking for this discussion, to post (almost) the same theory!

I think the proof of two timelines is Desmond himself. His time-travel/future-memories can be thought of two ways: either as a single, self-contained loop (Desmond circa 1996 always had "memories" of the events leading up to the explosion of the Swan) or as one iteration leading up to the false-safe event, where Desmond was clueless about future events until he flashed back to create a second iteration where he changed the course of events, then returned to iteration #1. The complete single loop idea isn't consistent with what we saw in "Flashes": the Desmond we saw in Season 2 didn't have memory of all the things leading up to the hatch explosion. Desmond #1 didn't buy the ring, talk to Charlie, or get smacked in the head. So we're stuck with two timelines for Desmond and the world, one in which he didn't know what would happen, and one in which he did.

I like the idea that the world off the island is iteration #2 (with all those unknown consequences of Desmond's changes running amok), but there are some strange story-related effects that would cause that make me wonder if that's where they are going with this. If we accept the possibility that Desmond made changes to the timeline, then we have to accept that those changes most specifically affected himself! So...where is Desmond #2, the Desmond that woke up in 1996 after getting smacked in the head? It's possible that the Desmond that woke up in 1996 after getting hit with the cricket bat (Desmond #2) didn't have the memories of future events anymore, but that seems strange and contrived. It seems more likely that Desmond #2 did have full knowledge of what was to come (or started having flash-forwards from that point onward, like our Desmond). He could have followed through on the advice of Ms. Hawking, following a similar course as Des #1, coming to the island, pushing the button, etc. If that is the case, then why wouldn't the plane crash? If he didn't come to the island, then why would Penny (#2) be looking for him?

Either way, if Des #2 did what Des #1 did, then there wouldn't be any reason for the outside world to be any different than the island world. Des #2 is on island #2 with outside world #2. If we find out that our Des and the losties are from iteration #1, and the rest of the world has been changed to iteration #2, then as you suggested, it's possible that the plane crashed and everyone died. But it doesn't answer the question of what happened to the Desmond from that timeline.

I'm fairly sure that some part of this will make it's way into the show, but a full and complete explanation probably won't come for quite some time, simply because it's confusing and hard to explain. Time travel is great fun to play with in a story like this, but very hard to write well and consistently. I hope they know what they're doing :biggrin: