I think it seems obvious Desi is using Charlie by involving Claire for his own good. Charlie's touching love affects Desi in the boat where he feels guilty, thinks better and decides to let fate fall and do it himself. At which point Charlie has already made his decision and WHACK. Desi changed his mind or is at least playing along. What he's not doing is the obvious. He almost sacrificed Charlie before, now he really almost did it. Probably cause the payoff in his vision was bigger.
And as far as Jack, Everyone seems to know he's acting different. Rose, Sayid,...me. He's making quick nervous decisions, Embracing the leader role which he has NEVER done before (which he states himself). Almost completely ignores Sayid's attempt at conversation involving RESCUE. And seems to be just humoring people. This is not the pragmatic calm Jack we know. Jack's faced some ugly situations before since arriving on the island, some arguably worse granted him not knowing the nature of the beast. BUT now he is acting out of character. There is a reason.
Desi and Jack both know more than we do.

It's called 'bad writing'.

Desi and Jack both know more than we do.

I agree with you!;)

Great observations.

You know, the pontential significance of that whack Charlie gave Desmond's head went right over my head until you mentioned it. If whacks to Desmond's head with large wooden implements can change the course of time, perhaps that's why Charlie didn't drown -- the future path would be different.

I agree about Jack. There is seriously something up with him.

Sorry, but I totally disagree. I think Desmond truly presented Charlie with what he saw. He almost sacrificed Charlie when he thought he was going to see Penny, but even then couldn't go through with it. I truly think he didn't want Charlie to die and would've gone underwater if Charlie hadn't knocked him out.

As for Jack, he is totally in character to me. He was always the reluctant leader, but now he's embracing his role because he's tired of being screwed by the others and can do something about it.

Sorry, but I totally disagree. I think Desmond truly presented Charlie with what he saw. He almost sacrificed Charlie when he thought he was going to see Penny, but even then couldn't go through with it. I truly think he didn't want Charlie to die and would've gone underwater if Charlie hadn't knocked him out.Agreed. I think it is a testament to Desmond's character, and to Charlie's, that neither man would stand idly by while the other swam to his death. I don't see it as any more complicated than the writers showing us that these are two noble men.

As for Jack, he is totally in character to me. He was always the reluctant leader, but now he's embracing his role because he's tired of being screwed by the others and can do something about it.Ditto again! You nailed it. I don't get why some people think the characters can never change. Look at the first three-qaurters of this season, everything that happened to Jack, from the Benipulation(TM) to seeing his friends beaten and humiliated, to being duped and lied to again and again. You don't think that would change a man?

I think they both know more than we're aware of; Desmond's earlier flash-forward had a lot of detail. For some reason, they only showed the rowing. Don't you think they would have loved to have filmed a death scene, to open the episode with a "Wow" that was later just a vision? Desmond's vision must have been something else.

Jack is in character; he's always played close to his vest; never been big on collaborative strategy. He has to save people, instead of asking them for ideas on saving themselves. I think he and Juliet plan to "accidentally" lead the women straight to Ben for some humanity-saving experiments and all this ka-pow is a ruse to look trustworthy. Saving humanity is probably the most tempting thing to Jack.

We'll see how it plays out next week; but Jack went from playing football with them to planning to blow them up pretty quickly.

For Desmond i have doubts because it can be in character, but for jack i'm so sure this guy hides something! I mean he didn't want to say to kate what happened during his week with the others...he protects Juliet all the time to prevent her from giving answer! And he's very weird with Kate...and he's not talking to anyone about his plan because he didn't know what to do? Juliet told him about what she was supposed to do with pregnant women after the medical scene with sun...but he was already protected her before and already weird with kate and not sharing information before!
And when talk about Naomi he didn't seem so please...come on it's his ticket out of the island and all he's talking about his the others coming to take pregnant ladies?
Still don't trust him!
He was supposed to be in love with kate and now in one week is in love with juliet? Sounds very weird to me!

Yeah, Jack seemed to be in love with Kate.... before he saw her doing the nasty with Sawyer in the cage. How would you react to seeing the woman you thought you had a connection with banging another man?
Jack was manipulated so much while at the Hydra can you blame him for closing up? And it's not like they put him up in a five star hotel, he was being held prisoner and he was convinced he was going to die. It doesn't matter who you are, that will change you.

I find it interesting that we weren't shown Desmond's flash. It maybe was just to save time for the other stuff, but it's possible that Desmond is giving Charlie bad information because he needs to affect an outcome.

Ooh, what if Desmond had a flash of himself telling Charlie he had a flash and was going to die. But he also knows Charlie will live, but wouldn't have gone down there otherwise...Something twisted like that.

Let's face it, one of the biggest plot twists this episode was that Charlie DIDN'T die (at least not yet!) TPTB realllllly set us up for a death, weeks of Desmond predicting it, the proclamation that this time, he HAS to die, all the pathos of writing his list of favorite memories, etc., only to survive at the end...It's just good writing - keeping us on our toes and surprised.

So why not a similar twist with Desmond's flashes?

Either that, or they can just off him next week. Higher body count makes for better finale ratings . :biggrin:

Not to sound bitchy, but I wish people would give Desmond and the writers a break.
Desmond doesn't want Charlie to die, he's just going by what Mrs. Hawkings told him. That it's Charlie's turn to die and the universe will see to it that it happens. He keeps saving him because he can't just let him die. He was feeling bad for Charlie in the boat and offered to go in his place, which I had a fit about because given the two, I'd be happier watching Charlie die.
And why does anyone think the writing is ever bad on this show? If this show doesn't impress you, I don't know what would.


(Vincenty! Very cute!)

Desmond's earlier flash-forward had a lot of detail. For some reason, they only showed the rowing. Don't you think they would have loved to have filmed a death scene, to open the episode with a "Wow" that was later just a vision? Desmond's vision must have been something else.

I totally agree.Every other vision has been shown. Either he saw more than that (you flip the switch, then you drown) or he saw less. Of course it could just be that they wanted to fill the episode with a lot of standing around waiting for the Others instead!

Last night, Jack's action reminded me of Michael.

I believe that Jack is going to "deliver" the Losties to Ben and company. He is the "mole" and Juliet has been conned along with everyone else. He and Ben have made a deal.

I believe that Jack is going to "deliver" the Losties to Ben and company. He is the "mole" and Juliet has been conned along with everyone else. He and Ben have made a deal.


So Jack knew all along that Karl was going to show up and wreck their plans to rig the tents to detonate from a distance knowing that he would have go to plan B and leave shooters behind, send Charlie on an underwater suicide mission and lead the rest away from danger to the radio tower? Wow, that's kind of impressive.

The thing with this show is that you keep waiting to be duped. They've set it up so you don't believe anything that's happening.

Last night, Jack's action reminded me of Michael.

I believe that Jack is going to "deliver" the Losties to Ben and company. He is the "mole" and Juliet has been conned along with everyone else. He and Ben have made a deal.

I don't think so. The difference between Jack and Michael is that Michael truly had to do what he did in order to protect his son. Jack doesn't have anything to protect to that extent and I don't believe it's in his character to give everyone up to the others just to get off the island. From what we've seen Jack has NOTHING to go home for. His father's dead, his wife left him, Anna Lucia is dead. He has nothing. So why would he give up the only true relationships he has to go home to nothing? There's no motive.

I read on this board somewhere that Desmond might be being manipulated by someone giving him the visions, like the people in The Stand. Last night it was clearer than ever that Desmond was affecting the course of things by telling Charlie he would be the one to go diving. If Desmond hadn't planted that seed, Charlie might never have known that someone was diving to the station. Jack, Kate, and Sayid were making a plan and Charlie just walked up out of the blue to volunteer. I hadn't thought about Des being whacked changing the course of things, but it seems plausible. However, it seems like Desmond's visions aren't really holding true (ex: it wasn't Penny under the mask and Charlie didn't die.)

I think they both know more than we're aware of; Desmond's earlier flash-forward had a lot of detail. For some reason, they only showed the rowing.


Did we see them row? I thought it was Karl who was rowing in the beginning.


Don't you think they would have loved to have filmed a death scene, to open the episode with a "Wow" that was later just a vision? Desmond's vision must have been something else.


Didn't they do that already in "Catch-22"?