In the Flash Foward things Jack says stuff like bring my dad here and stuff like that.. So that makes me wonder did his dad really die or what??

Please post your theroies...

* P.S. Mods If there is a Baord on this already, Sorry!*

I was thinking that it just shows how badly Jack was coping and how out of touch with reality he really is, not so much that his father is still alive.

Ben told him his father died..He has nothing to go back to...I tend to beleive that Ben was telling the truth...
I also agree that Christian isnt alive rigt niw this minute I should say as I may change my mind...lol

Interesting idea.. But maybe he's so out of touch with the world that maybe he belives that his dad is alive even though he's not... Just somthing to mull over..

If the alternate time line realities exist, perhaps Jack did something that changed his past. He did mention to Kate that he "couldn't lie anymore" or something to that effect. Maybe when they got off the island they had to pretend 815 never did crash on the island or at least claim they weren't on the plane. :shrug:

If the alternate time line realities exist, perhaps Jack did something that changed his past. He did mention to Kate that he "couldn't lie anymore" or something to that effect. Maybe when they got off the island they had to pretend 815 never did crash on the island or at least claim they weren't on the plane. :shrug:
I like the idea... But maybe he was lying about how he felt for Kate....who knows this is LOST...:rolleyes:

Jack was a raving lunatic at that point- the look in the other guy's eyes confirmed it.

I think that Darma found the island because the Losties told them where they were. Darma came in and anniliated everyone except for Jack and Kate and ? who managed to get off the island in exchange for their silence. Looks to me like Jack in the ff is haunted by his part in leading the Losties to their doom. He wants to go back and change his actions so he can alter the future.

This is all too strange.

This made me think too. Clearly Jack was in poor shape at this point in time, so he could've easily been delusional about his father.
Or, as many have suggested, if the island is in some sort of time-bubble or dimensional rift, and when they get rescued, they are brought back into a different timeline (a timeline where Jack's dad is alive and their flight crashed in the ocean and everyone died). This could also be the reason why he is so distraught and wants to go back to the island. Imagine living in a world where you and everyone you just spent the last year of your life with died...but you are all alive. It would be like going back to some alien planet. It would also really mess up your mind.

But if this is all Jack's rantings, then how did he get the scrip? I'm not saying that Christian wrote out the scrip, but Jack was trying to get a narcotic which requires a scrip. Each doctor has a number (FDA?) and I assume that this number is cancelled when that person dies. So, if this is some decent amount of time after Christian's "death" how would he even presume to get the scrip filled? I don't think Jack's that way off. It means something else.

Jack forged his father's name on the scrip. I took it to mean that he was so strung out that he didn't realize that his father was dead when Dr. Mike (sorry, I'm a Las Vegas fan...) confronted him.

But if this is all Jack's rantings, then how did he get the scrip? I'm not saying that Christian wrote out the scrip, but Jack was trying to get a narcotic which requires a scrip. Each doctor has a number (FDA?) and I assume that this number is cancelled when that person dies. So, if this is some decent amount of time after Christian's "death" how would he even presume to get the scrip filled? I don't think Jack's that way off. It means something else.

I think so too.. at least until I watch the episode again, in case I missed something. I think there's something weird with changing the past/future going on here.

Christian Sherphard is still alive. How? and why? When flight 816 first crash on the island, Jack was taking his father 's dead body back to be buried. Yet, we now find out that Christian Sherphard is still alive. How? did Christian Fake his death, or was Jack delusional, and only imagine that his father had died. In "White Rabbit", when Jack found his father's coffin, it was empthy, which seem to indicate that maybe Christian Sherphard never died, and Jack only imagin the whole thing. Still the morgue guy from "White Rabbit" was also seen on beach in the pilot episode , which seem to indicate that Christian Sherphard might have fake his own death. ...or maybe, just maybe Jack return to a timeline in which his father was still alive, still drinking ,and still working at the hospital.

Comments, Views, and Opinions welcome.

Whenever he mentioned his father...it was too prove a point or get something he wanted.
1. With the pharmacist...she would never know if his father were dead or alive so Jack thought he would lie and say that his dad was alive. But, she called his office and Jack knew he couldn't get away with it so he just walked out.
2. The new doctor is NEW and therefore wouldn't have known his father. So Jack was just trying to prove a point.

Thats what I think.

I don't think Christian is alive. Jack was pretty high at the time and the look on the doctor's face when he mentioned his dad seemed like shock. Also, the prescription just said Dr. Shepard. He wrote it himself and tried to get the meds by saying it was his fathers. When the pharmasist tried to contact him, he kept her from doing so. If there was a timeline thing, I think they would have made it more obvious by having Christian actually appear.

If the alternate time line realities exist, perhaps Jack did something that changed his past. He did mention to Kate that he "couldn't lie anymore" or something to that effect. Maybe when they got off the island they had to pretend 815 never did crash on the island or at least claim they weren't on the plane. :shrug:


I am wondering if Kate and Jack left the Island. Leaving the islands might mean not getting back to the exact time. Maybe they went back and cause the plane to not take off. Everyone gets on a different flight and go their own way. The plane never crashes on the Island. This new timeline would mean that Locke would be stuck in the wheel chair and Desmond in the hatch. I wonder if the funeral was for someone that Kate and Jack knew from the Island in the old timeline but not the new one. Jack saying that he wasnt a friend or a family member would be an example of the distance an alternate timeline would create. I just cannot figure out if they changed things then how come Jack and Kate know each other.

but that still doesn't explain the golden flight passes. I am at a loss trying to figure this out tonight.

Damon and Carlton have said Christian Shepard is dead, dead, dead!
Jack's in a very bad place in the future and doesn't know what he's doing.

flight 815 my friend.

And yeah, it was a clue of some kind that Jack's dad was mentioned in that fashion. I suppose there is a possibility that as soon as they were off the island, the timeline reset and they landed safely in LA, but yet remembered the island and those events. AKA stephen king's GUNSLINGER series.

i think that only a few of them got of the island and that what he is tired of lying about. he wants to go back because he knows that more survivors are there. that's why he has maps and stuff all over his floor.
also, i think that since dr. mike (las vegas fan here, too) is the new chief, maybe no one knows that jack's dad is dead, since he died in australia and his body was not in his coffin after the crash. or in 'the' coffin that they showed us in the caves.
the next 3 seasons are most likely going to be flashbacks of time on the island.
brilliant. well done!!

flight 815 my friend.

And yeah, it was a clue of some kind that Jack's dad was mentioned in that fashion. I suppose there is a possibility that as soon as they were off the island, the timeline reset and they landed safely in LA, but yet remembered the island and those events. AKA stephen king's GUNSLINGER series.

There was no safe landing because they got the "golden passes" that allow them to fly anywhere. that is for the plane crash.

There was no safe landing because they got the "golden passes" that allow them to fly anywhere. that is for the plane crash.Also, Christian supposedly died before the crash. :shrug:

Christian Shephard is dead. Jack was drinking and taking oxycodone so there is no way he is reliable. Also, everytime he mentioned his father the doctor would look at him oddly.

I'm leaning towards Christian being dead and the Jack was just so boozed up and/or drugged up, he wasn't being rationale.....kept confusing what and where he was - not to mention when, lol.

Ben had said that his father was dead......although he could easily have been just playing Jack (even though in this episode, Ben seemed to be a whole lot more truthful than ever before)

i
the next 3 seasons are most likely going to be flashbacks of time on the island.
brilliant. well done!!

Who says the island wont be the flashbacks and the present, where Jack is, will be the current show. TPTB did hint the flashbacks will change.

Also you have to stretch quite a bit to believe Christian is not alive in the real world. I dont care how high you are..your not gonna act like your father is alive or have a MD script pad postdated at some future date. The first thing the pharmacy does is look at the date of the RX.

Also..there is no reason to enter this stuff into the script if we're not suppose to at least contemplate Christian is still alive

I heard someone indicate that TPTB assured us Christian was absolutely dead...does anyone have a URL for that?

TPTB have said Christian is for sure dead. But at the same time, he was mentioned a few too many times in the flashback/flashforward for me to just dismiss it as Jack's boozing, you know? He was mentioned at least three times.... it seemed a little fishy to me too. But TPTB did say he was dead, so I don't know... :confused:

I would like to know about this as well...someone wake me up when you figure it out...this ep makes me 'ed hurt and I'm tired...and...I feel dizzy

Well that whole flash back/forward thing had me totally confused. As jack mentioned "well lets go see my father over in his office right now and lets see which one of us is more drunk" and "the script is written by Dr Christian Sheppard, not me" , that had me thinking it was a flashback as her refers to his dad as alive still. That is until Kate appeared, and Jack discussed the Gold passes they were given by the airline and why knew of the funeral from the paper but she would not go to this funeral * is it juliet's?? is that what upset jack so much to kill himself, i don't see it being Ben in that case*.

So if it flipped on a future flash, then is jack totally whacked out forging scripts in his dad's name, and saying stuff that is off the wall regarding his dead dad now alive still. Or is Christian Shepherd alive after all? still pondering that whole flash... Diamondone :confused:

TPTB have said Christian is for sure dead. But at the same time, he was mentioned a few too many times in the flashback/flashforward for me to just dismiss it as Jack's boozing, you know? He was mentioned at least three times.... it seemed a little fishy to me too. But TPTB did say he was dead, so I don't know... :confused:


I don't know either, but I found this about oxycottin, thats what he was taking right?


http://www.detox911.com/oxycontin-addiction.html

It doesn't say anything about becoming delusional even when mixed with alchol? It could be wrong people have diffrent reactions to diffrent drugs. But Jack seemed to be functional enough to read maps, remember Kates phone no., steal more drugs without getting caught? If he was delutional this is the only one he was having?

abby, from your link.....

Oxycodone has similar effects to morphine and heroin......Like other opioids, oxycodone can be fatal at high doses or when combined with depressants such as alcohol.

delusional may be the wrong word.......confused is probably more applicable.

If there was a timeline thing, I think they would have made it more obvious by having Christian actually appear.

I forgot to quote this the first time... but actually I think they would leave it just as they have so we have to live in pain and debate it all freakin summer... :eek2: :biggrin:

Christian was definitely alive in Jack's future-flash. If he were that delusional and that's what the writer's intended, then someone would have mentioned something to that effect. Everyone assumed Christian was alive.

It agrees with my theory that after they got off of the island, they are in an alternate future where Christian isn't dead, Kate isn't a fugitive, and whatever else we don't know of yet.

Christian was definitely alive in Jack's future-flash. If he were that delusional and that's what the writer's intended, then someone would have mentioned something to that effect. Everyone assumed Christian was alive.

It agrees with my theory that after they got off of the island, they are in an alternate future where Christian isn't dead, Kate isn't a fugitive, and whatever else we don't know of yet.

You make a very good point about Kate. It struck me right away: Did she just get a pass on murder because she was in a plane crash? Seems to me that they would have put her back in custody when they were rescued and her identity was revealed.

Who says the island wont be the flashbacks and the present, where Jack is, will be the current show. TPTB did hint the flashbacks will change.

Also you have to stretch quite a bit to believe Christian is not alive in the real world. I dont care how high you are..your not gonna act like your father is alive or have a MD script pad postdated at some future date. The first thing the pharmacy does is look at the date of the RX.

Also..there is no reason to enter this stuff into the script if we're not suppose to at least contemplate Christian is still aliveThis is a good point. When Jack was trying to fill his prescription the pharmacist said there were no refills but Jack said he had only filled it twice, then the pharmacist replied that Dr Shepherd had cut off the prescription or something like that.

I heard someone indicate that TPTB assured us Christian was absolutely dead...does anyone have a URL for that?They did say that, but they lie. :shrug: There is a thread somewhere on this site that lists everything TPTB have ever claimed about the show.

Jack was unhinged. He was mixing pills and booze. And the doctor looked at him as if he were off his rocker when he told the doc to go get his dad. That fellow was looking at Jack with a great deal of pity.

Christian is dead. BTW, so is Elvis.;)

I am fixated by this question. After some consideration however, I wonder...

Assuming this is a flash forward, either normal, continuous time line or some alternate, would Jack's dad still be a practicing doctor? Before the crash, Jack ratted him out. For Jack to come back before that incident and change it is quite a stretch. Otherwise, Christian probably doesn't have a licence anymore. I feel like the drugs were talking. I can't see it any other way, esp. since Christian has been confirmed dead by the show peeps. I need to go to bed.

And yeah, it was a clue of some kind that Jack's dad was mentioned in that fashion. I suppose there is a possibility that as soon as they were off the island, the timeline reset and they landed safely in LA, but yet remembered the island and those events. AKA stephen king's GUNSLINGER series.

No, Jack referenced the Golden Ticket from Oceanic, he's definitely been on a crash on an Oceanic flight in the Flash Forward.

TPTB have said Christian is for sure dead. But at the same time, he was mentioned a few too many times in the flashback/flashforward for me to just dismiss it as Jack's boozing, you know? He was mentioned at least three times.... it seemed a little fishy to me too. But TPTB did say he was dead, so I don't know..

True. Unless they believe that Jack is delusional, and that why no one say anything to him. I do not think Jack's a doctor. Actually I going to go out on a limb and say that maybe Jack had issue way before the crash. The scene in "All the Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues" between Jack and his father seem to mirror what happen in the hospital now. In All the best cowboys have daddy issue, Christian Sherphard mention that Jack was upstairs, and he was in the restaurant having lunch,when they called him....in "Through the looking glass", Jack tells them to get his father, he right upstairs.

the only reason they kept mentioning Christian's name is to keep the episode under the guise that it was a flashback. Remember the big shocker was that it was a flashforward....and notice how Jack never actually lets the call go through to his father's office. Notice the look the other doctor gives him when Jack brings up his father being drunk all the time...Jack was (or is) a suicidal, alcoholic hopped up on pills. Is it that hard to imagine he simply forgot his father was dead, especially in the situations in which he brought his father up? (him trying to get more pills by writing his own prescription, him using his father as an example to prove he really doesnt have a problem)

Also you have to stretch quite a bit to believe Christian is not alive in the real world. I dont care how high you are..your not gonna act like your father is alive or have a MD script pad postdated at some future date. The first thing the pharmacy does is look at the date of the RX.

Jack just said his father wrote it because he couldn't write his own prescription. When the lady wanted to confirm it, clearly he just dismissed it, because he knew his dad was dead.

Also..there is no reason to enter this stuff into the script if we're not suppose to at least contemplate Christian is still alive

I think tricking the audience into thinking it was a flashback and not a flash forward is a pretty good reason, actually.

The new Dr. Hammill guy knew that Jack's dad was dead, hence his looks after the "call my dad" comments. It's not exactly the correct or easy thing to do, to tell drugged up/drunk Jack that his father's dead.

I believe it was the writers attempt to make the audience think it was a flashback. With all the drinking and oxycodone he was on, he was probably out of touch with reality and did not know what was going on. He looked really, really messed up.

So easily, Jack's dad Christian is still dead. No doubts about that.

At first I though, oh jeez, he is still alive, but I've rethought that.

When Jack says bring my father down here to see who is drunker, hes really out of it, and I think its just meant to show his mental instability.

At the pharmacy he has a fit and stops the girl from phoning Christian's office, saying "hes not in right now" or something like that- since hes dead, IMO.

So based on the "go upstairs and get my father" comments, can we assume that Christian is alive? Somehow? Someway?

After finding out it wasnt a flashback but a flashforward. I tought that he meant it in a figure of speech.

As in "If you go up into heaven to get my dad...."

There is something fishy about that. Jack also has a script of Christians. I took that scene to mean Christian is somehow alive but the script was forged by jack. We were told over and over again that Christian is dead, dead, dead. Maybe this speaks to the time discrepacy theory.

Yeah I don't think he was referring to heaven. There's something to this, I'm sure, but I just can't wrap my head around it.

I still don't know what to think about that....:frown:

i think, at that point, he was losing it ... he seem to "forget" that he's father isn't alive anymore ...

Do you remember the look on the doc and jack's faces after jack said that? Do you remember jack saying 'don't pity me!' I think the line about christian was just to throw us off about it not being a flashback. Jack is so messed up about everything it was a slip of the tongue, and the doc looked at him in a pitying way because the doc knows jack's father is dead. And the prescription pad...he could have just gotten that from his parents' house.

Do you remember the look on the doc and jack's faces after jack said that? Do you remember jack saying 'don't pity me!' I think the line about christian was just to throw us off about it not being a flashback. Jack is so messed up about everything it was a slip of the tongue, and the doc looked at him in a pitying way because the doc knows jack's father is dead. And the prescription pad...he could have just gotten that from his parents' house.
Well said. I think that's it exactly. They have made it abundantly clear that Christian is dead. How ironic though that Jack has in many ways turned into his father.

From the remarks Jack made it sounds like his father is alive in this present day/ future.

I wonder if Jack knows he should be dead.

What if he remembers everything. Precrash? :eek2:

I think it leaves open the possibility that Christian is Jacob.

After the show I said, "Wait a minute" as I tried to process the Flashforward.

I think it was another timeline where things played out differently or something. I don't know. I'd be more fine with that than the damn flashforwards.

Alive, the lostaways are "through the Looking Glass" we are somewhere else in Space time, either a parallel universe or alternate future.

I was thinking that it just shows how badly Jack was coping and how out of touch with reality he really is, not so much that his father is still alive.


i agree.
jack's dad isn't alive.
drugs & alcohol can have that kind of effect on poor jack.
he's losing it. and he wanted to kill himself.

I would like to know about this as well...someone wake me up when you figure it out...this ep makes me 'ed hurt and I'm tired...and...I feel dizzy
Uh oh! You have the symptons that people in Japan got from watching Babel!!:eek2:

But back to the normail world.....:rolleyes:

I belive that Jack's dad is alive.. I think he is part of hanso/darma/other...So thats why we saw him alive in the eppisode White Rabbit...

My take on this may be a little different, so please bear with me. I think Christian is dead, and Jack was only halucinating as to the future events. It fits in well with previous storylines such as when Boone, Locke, Kate, & Shannon all had very real-like halucinations. We thought it was really happening, didn't we? This would also explain why Christian is actually dead, because the "future events" haven't really taken place.

My reasoning is I kept thinking that we still have 3 seasons to go, and if they have already been rescued, then how are they going to have a show? It's all about them being stranded on an island, right? So that lead me to believe that it was some sort of dream/halucination, and the next season will open up with Jack waking up. If I recall correctly, both Ben & Locke told Jack not to make the call, and Locke even stated that "Jack wasn't supposed to do this", (or something similar), so this may have caused him to imagine what his life would be like off the island.

In addition, I don't think the Losties get rescued yet because the people on the radio will turn out to be Dharma. So many of the Others were defeated in this episode, so Dharma will become the latest enemy. This means our story will take a new turn in that direction. This may cause them to even team up with the Others to fight Dharma.:eek2:

What do you think?

My take on this may be a little different, so please bear with me. I think Christian is dead, and Jack was only halucinating as to the future events. It fits in well with previous storylines such as when Boone, Locke, Kate, & Shannon all had very real-like halucinations. We thought it was really happening, didn't we? This would also explain why Christian is actually dead, because the "future events" haven't really taken place.

My reasoning is I kept thinking that we still have 3 seasons to go, and if they have already been rescued, then how are they going to have a show? It's all about them being stranded on an island, right? So that lead me to believe that it was some sort of dream/halucination, and the next season will open up with Jack waking up. If I recall correctly, both Ben & Locke told Jack not to make the call, and Locke even stated that "Jack wasn't supposed to do this", (or something similar), so this may have caused him to imagine what his life would be like off the island.

In addition, I don't think the Losties get rescued yet because the people on the radio will turn out to be Dharma. So many of the Others were defeated in this episode, so Dharma will become the latest enemy. This means our story will take a new turn in that direction. This may cause them to even team up with the Others to fight Dharma.:eek2:

What do you think?I like the idea.. It makes alot of sense actually.. I think Naomi was maybe a other... And Ben was just wanting the others to come so told Jack not to call them.. It's very likely...I can't wait to see next year....

I've had a crazy thoery for a while now that Christian is a powerful Hanso figure, tied in with Widmore, and is responsible for Jack and Kate's rescue, and probably Claire's too. He faked his death for some reason. Jack may have been hopped up, but forgetting your dad is dead is not a common side effect of oxycodone and booze.

Uh oh! You have the symptons that people in Japan got from watching Babel!!

Damn, I haven't seen that yet...soon though - Ok it's a new day I feel better...although I think I was dreaming Lost last night...:biggrin: I am officially obsessed now.

In addition, I don't think the Losties get rescued yet because the people on the radio will turn out to be Dharma. So many of the Others were defeated in this episode, so Dharma will become the latest enemy. This means our story will take a new turn in that direction. This may cause them to even team up with the Others to fight Dharma.

I was thinking this very thing last night - at least the last bit about teaming up with the others...I said it to hubby but he just shrugged. Glad to see someone else is on this track. I like the idea that Jack didn't answer the call although those wake up from a dream scenes are usually a lame storytelling device. I hope they do it right and it would be nice not to know whether they get rescued or not. So much to think about with so long to wait. :eek2:

You make a very good point about Kate. It struck me right away: Did she just get a pass on murder because she was in a plane crash? Seems to me that they would have put her back in custody when they were rescued and her identity was revealed.


I'm staring to get on board with the alternate timeline theory, with Kate being one of the reasons. Didn't Jack say "the golden tickets they gave Us"? So not only does she get away with murder but now gets to fly all over the world for free???????:confused:

Kate may have adopted the identity of a dead passenger, like Joanna or even Shannon.

Kate may have adopted the identity of a dead passenger, like Joanna or even Shannon.
I could see Kate doing that..Because she is a runaway.....But maybe when she got off the island her charges were taken off....Who knows this is Lost..:rolleyes:

I still think it's weird that Kate would want to get off the island at all...what for??

I still think it's weird that Kate would want to get off the island at all...what for??
Yeah I know.. Maybe she thinks she can start a new life... :undecide:

Kate may have adopted the identity of a dead passenger, like Joanna or even Shannon.


True, But I keep thinking about her mugshot, that had to be in a few post offices? She didn't look like she had gone out of her way to disguise herself? Her hair was straight but that was about it. Plus would'nt the athorities be looking for Edward Mars their fellow cop, knowing he was on the plane I would think they would have looked high and low for the fugitive he was transporting.

I believe Jack was very much under the influence (whether it was drugs or alcohol or a mixture) when he made references to his father last night. I believe Christian is dead and that's that.

They might have looked for her, but maybe they thought she went through enough...

About Jack's dad it would be so cool if he was alive then maybe Jack and Claire would learn that they are related...

My take on this may be a little different, so please bear with me. I think Christian is dead, and Jack was only halucinating as to the future events. It fits in well with previous storylines such as when Boone, Locke, Kate, & Shannon all had very real-like halucinations. We thought it was really happening, didn't we? This would also explain why Christian is actually dead, because the "future events" haven't really taken place.

My reasoning is I kept thinking that we still have 3 seasons to go, and if they have already been rescued, then how are they going to have a show? It's all about them being stranded on an island, right? So that lead me to believe that it was some sort of dream/halucination, and the next season will open up with Jack waking up. If I recall correctly, both Ben & Locke told Jack not to make the call, and Locke even stated that "Jack wasn't supposed to do this", (or something similar), so this may have caused him to imagine what his life would be like off the island.

In addition, I don't think the Losties get rescued yet because the people on the radio will turn out to be Dharma. So many of the Others were defeated in this episode, so Dharma will become the latest enemy. This means our story will take a new turn in that direction. This may cause them to even team up with the Others to fight Dharma.:eek2:

What do you think?

Okay I am so with you on this. I have thought for a while now that on this island "nothing is as it seems". I have started a new thread on this here (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1573310#post1573310) because I really think that perhaps since this show was called "Through the Looking Glass" that would make a lot of sense.

So if it's not what it seems then that makes sense on why Jack's dad is alive..

I was thinking the alternate reality thing too. Like they went back home, but not to their home. I don't think that Jack meant pretending about the crash. Remember Oceanic gave him a golden pass. The only reason they would do that was if they were trying to compensate him for the crash. But I was also thinking that Jack could have post traumatic stress syndrome. It happens to a lot of soldiers who go to war and when people they are fighting with die, and they somehow manage to survive, there is this overwhelming sense of guilt. If Jack and Kate were the only people allowed to leave, Jack would have this guilt, like he should have been the one to die. That last scene with Kate, when he was telling her that they need to go back, I got the sense that it wasn't the first time Jack had brought this up to her. maybe that was what she made him promise, not to mention it again. She looked like it was painful to see him like this. This is what I think the lie is, that they told the rest of the world that it was just them who survived, and that nobody else survived the crash. They didn't say anything about the island and what happened there. Maybe cause they promissed to keep silent, but Jack cant just forget, he cant let go. he doesn't feel right about what happened and just go live a normal life.

Maybe Christian is occupying an office in the hospital like Jacob is occupying that cabin on the island - as an "entity" that only Jack can see and hear. A drunk ghost, if you will....:ohwell:

I'm extremely confident Christian is dead, still dead. About the prescription, it was signed by Dr. Shepard, not Dr. Christian Shepard. This is proved by the pharmasist saying that he can't write his own prescription. She would know his name wasn't Christian since she was looking up Jack Shepard on the computer. It was at that point Jack said it was signed by Christian because he was desperate. Also, if you look at the new Chief of Surgery's face when he mentions his father, it goes to a look of pity immediately. This tells me he knows Christian is dead (after all, he does have his job) and that he feels sorry for Jack for proving that he is intoxicated. I think the mention of Christian at all was to show Jack's state, make the audience believe we are seeing a flashback until the reveal, and to make us spend the entire summer talking about alternate timelines :)

in one of the flashbacks or in this case flash forward, when confronted by the new head doctor jack says something like go upstairs and see if my father is not drunker then i am."

although upstairs could be referring to like heaven or something it still doesnt make sense. he talked like his dad was still alive. or maybe it was just his oxycoton.

i think a little of everything. i believe the writers wanted to keep us guessing in regards to the time frame so they kept tossing out dialogue that would make us question everything. There were two references about his dad that made us think that this was a flashback and not a flashforward.

Now that we know it is in the future i think Jack made the statement knowing that his father is dead AND also cause he was hopped up on drugs (and likely alcohol).

I thought he said to "call" his father????????

In the scene in the hospital with Jack, he says,

"Go upstairs and get my father and if I am drunker than he is you can fire me"

He also says after stealing the hillbilly heroine from the closet, and the other doctor is going to call his dad, that his dad is out of town,

I didn't see any other posts about this but there are a lot and it is hard to get on here right now, but did anyone else notice this and what do you think of it?

Is that what the exact line was?
I thought it was in the present tense. I was confused by it too. I want to await confirmation on the wording before I start jumping on the he's alive bandwagon again.

well if it is an alternate future maybe he is alive -
a lot of people are just chalking it up to the fact that he was inebriated

I think the writers just had Jack referring to his father so that people would be thrown off and assume it was a flashback.

If that woman had phoned Jack's father then she would have found out he was dead and that Jack faked the prescription to get the drugs. That's why he said that his father was on vacation.

When Jack tells the other doctor to go upstairs and get his father I think he says this because he's drunk, on drugs and feeling angry and upset. The look the other doctor gives Jack when he mentions his father is one of pity because he knows Jack's dad is dead.

Good point about the throwing us off to presume its a flashback. And obviously if he was so strung out on meds and booze, he could easily get those pesky tenses messed up ;)

... Still .................. when Jack found Christian's coffin on the island, remember that it was empty. Doo-doo-doo-doo .........

there's also a touch of irony in the way he says it. ultimately..it was his drinking that killed christian. he got so drunk, he's now dead.

and as for what he told the pharmacist..i have no doubt jack faked the prescription, forging his dad's signature. and when the pharmacist questioned him..he did kinda tell the truth. his dad is "away"...forever. lol.

I thought it was because he was so stoned that he wasn't quite sure when he was...

That's what I got out of it.

Was it in the future? I mean, clearly its after they get off the island. But is that the future? Maybe when they leave the island, they are farther back in time than they were when they crashed there. Heheh. Have fun digesting THAT. I know I will.

Is that what the exact line was?

No, the exact line was "You get my father down here, get him down here right now, and if I'm drunker than he is, you can fire me."

Pretty sure this is a purposeful obfuscation by the writers to make us comfortably sure we're in the past, not the future--and it worked, considering almost everyone I've read quoting it thinks he said, "Go upstairs and get my father, which obviously refers to a brick-and-mortar location.

In the light of the flash-forward, he obviously means "down here" as in, on earth--the classic twist that changes the meaning of what you think you saw before--and the prescription was forged, and he lied to the pharmacist when he said his dad was out of town--though we were meant to assume this took place when Christian was in Australia.

Christian is dead, people. WORD.

You know, I was thinking at first it was just because he was stoned, but maybe he changed the past by making the call that Locke told him he wasn't supposed to make to the boat. Could be that changed the course of the past they went back to when they left the island and his dad is alive and Kate is still with her husband whose child she is carrying and is now somehow cleared or the law hasn't caught up to her yet (remember she ran before they did that time) and if it was Michael in that coffin, she could have been referring to she wouldn't have gone to his furneral because she wouldn't have known him in this alternate reality they're in now.

I think the look on the surgeon's face was supposed to convey that Christian is as dead as a doornail in his world/reality/timeline/whatever. However, I figure Jack is going to encounter Christian in a more sustained way during a future (er, past) island hallucination and flat refuse to believe he's dead when they do eventually escape.

:dead::dead::dead::dead::dead::dead::dead::dead::d ead:

Didn't Jack only mention his father when he was seemingly drunk? I didn't really understand the whole drinking thing, but people accused Jack of drinking again. Sometimes when he acted oddly, he mentioned his father? Could it have been the drunk Jack talking?

Or am I just remembering things that really didn't happen . . . ?

okay this might be wacky but.....
hanso foundation is real powerful so maybe they told kate if she kept her trap shut about what happened on the island they would give her a clean slate.
i find that very believable, could they also somehow harness the islands powers and bring jacks dad back alive to keep him quiet? i dont know just a wacky theory i just thought of

He's dead....eerrr.....I mean reincarnated in his son.

I'm still wondering why Hanso, Widmore, and the other Corporations would let the survivors of flight 815 live normal lives at all. You'd think they'd institute them or something for obvious reasons. I mean, they've seen things that the corporations have been unable to see for 20-25 years and they have valuable information and so forth.
And don't say "They'd let the survivors go after they learn they don't know much abou the island", because that's hooey. They wouldn't let people run loose with information about the strange island (and the knowledge of Dharma, smoke monsters, natives, why the island is hidden, and so forth). It's their little secret and they wouldn't dare let 40 people from all over the world tell other people about it, whether or not other people would believe them or not. Imagine if the government or other competing organizations found out there are people who've been on the island - they'd take them as a resource of some sort or whatnot.

I think Christian is dead for sure. A storytelling device used to keep us thinking it was a flash back when it was a flash forward. Nice twist, eh? I also agree that the "wake up from a dream" idea would be weak storytelling.

We have never had any alternate time realties in this show, why start now? I think the timeline is real, no twisted reality.

They are definitely rescued, definitely home, although this is a good question as to why Hanso et. al. have not "held them for questioning" ...hmmm?

Jacks despondancy it a result of exactly what Ben asked him, "what do you have to go home to? the hospital?" Exactly. He's a celebrity, "the hero" and he hates it.

I agree with posters here that he is doped up, doctor's look on his face conveys concern. I recently took oxycodone after surgery, and it only made me dizzy and sleepy, but then I wasn't drinking alcohol with it.

On another note, when does Jack get a DUI? He's polishing off a bottle when he calls Kate to meet him at the airport and drives anyway?????????

I vote for alternate universe. Afterall, the episode was through the looking glass.

I was thinking the alternate reality thing too. Like they went back home, but not to their home. I don't think that Jack meant pretending about the crash. Remember Oceanic gave him a golden pass. The only reason they would do that was if they were trying to compensate him for the crash.

I agree.I do not think Jack went back to his own timeline. So the crash must have happen.

got the sense that it wasn't the first time Jack had brought this up to her. maybe that was what she made him promise, not to mention it again. She looked like it was painful to see him like this. This is what I think the lie is, that they told the rest of the world that it was just them who survived, and that nobody else survived the crash. They didn't say anything about the island and what happened there. Maybe cause they promissed to keep silent, but Jack cant just forget, he cant let go. he doesn't feel right about what happened and just go live a normal life.
I think they might have made some type of deal in the same way Michael
did, as far as keeping silent about the others. I do not think they were the only one who got off the island. I think the person who's funeral jack went to was on from island too, but it must have been one of the others, considering that if it was a flight 815 survivor, Kate would have went as well. So maybe Kate, Jack and ? got off the island leaving everyone else behind. I was think that if Christian Sherpard is dead, the medical staff would not be just going along with Jack's delusion, they would have had him locked up,or at least check over by a psychologist. I can not see the medical staff allowing Jack to come into the hospital drunk/high talking about doing surgery.

I never assumed that he meant his father was alive. He meant it as sarcasm for sure. His father was truly "dead drunk" and he assumed the pharmacist would take the prescription if it was from his father and possibly not ask questions.

And don't say "They'd let the survivors go after they learn they don't know much abou the island", because that's hooey. They wouldn't let people run loose with information about the strange island (and the knowledge of Dharma, smoke monsters, natives, why the island is hidden, and so forth). It's their little secret and they wouldn't dare let 40 people from all over the world tell other people about it, whether or not other people would believe them or not. Imagine if the government or other competing organizations found out there are people who've been on the island - they'd take them as a resource of some sort or whatnot.

I think this is possible but it would make more sense to just eliminate them on the island which is why I think this "rescue" is bogus and they are going to have something worse to deal with than the others. Didn't Darlton make a comment like this somewhere - that if you thought the others were bad...just wait...or something to that effect.

I think that in the flash forward only a few of them actually made it off the island for whatever reason and there has to be more than just...ok sssshhhhh don't tell anyone. Or it could be because there are only a few left and who's going to believe them. There are people wandering around talking about UFO abductions and people don't believe them so why would they go for this whole Dharma thing. Remember that our losties haven't seen everything that we have about Dharma - they dont' really know anything.

If this makes no sense, it's not my fault....I am dead tired and obsessed with this damn show :biggrin: and I think I really need to sleep now. :drowsy:

There was no safe landing because they got the "golden passes" that allow them to fly anywhere. that is for the plane crash.

I agree that a crash survivor would get the golden pass for future flights...but this is LOST. That being said, can we agree that there's no sure bet on who exactly gave them a golden pass? What if DARMA gave them the golden pass? No one said it had to be Oceanic giving to a survivor of one their own tradgedies...

I think Jack was losing it when he mentioned his father. He was drunk and just dropped some oxycodone. I also think he was getting very emotional about eventually getting fired just like his father and he really doesn't want to end up like him, although without the island he has nothing else.
He is depressed, suicidal and abusing multiple drugs. I really don't think his father was alive, Jack was just flying WAY too high.

I agree that a crash survivor would get the golden pass for future flights...but this is LOST. That being said, can we agree that there's no sure bet on who exactly gave them a golden pass? What if DARMA gave them the golden pass? No one said it had to be Oceanic giving to a survivor of one their own tradgedies...

We cant agree to that:) :)

It too obvious it was because of the crash.

Watching it again, the comments about his father may have just been a device to make sure we didnt guess it was the future while we were watching

When Jack was accused of being drunk in the hospital hallway, he makes the comment that he's no more drunk than his dad... I guess this can only be explained three ways

1) Jack really believes his dad is still alive and working at the hospital
2) Jack's dad REALLY is still alive and working at the hospital
3) Jack's so doped up he doesn't know what's going on

... the only reason I bring this up is that noone came out and said "Jack, you know your father passed away"... or anything to that effect. Does anyone think that was just a ploy to think that we were in the past or is there any possibility that it really was Jack's dad wondering around the forest in season 1?

When Jack was accused of being drunk in the hospital hallway, he makes the comment that he's no more drunk than his dad... I guess this can only be explained three ways
w
1) Jack really believes his dad is still alive and working at the hospital
2) Jack's dad REALLY is still alive and working at the hospital
3) Jack's so doped up he doesn't know what's going on

... the only reason I bring this up is that noone came out and said "Jack, you know your father passed away"... or anything to that effect. Does anyone think that was just a ploy to think that we were in the past or is there any possibility that it really was Jack's dad wondering around the forest in season 1?

I think the writers wanted us to keep guessing till the final scene with Kate, but it was the doctor's reactions to Jack's comments about his father being "upstairs" that tipped me off.. They were all staring at him like he had completely lost it...My first thought was " This is NOW, and Jack is so doped up and delerious, and so much has happened to him, he's lost touch with reality... The other doctors can see what's going on but are all being polite by not saying it to him. Also it might push him further over the edge if they did. They seem to have a certain respect for Jack based on his past achievements, and are being very tactful in dealing with his current messed up condition..." In a way, he became his father...the other doctors would've been aware of Christian's drink problem, and that was probably the new chief of surgeons who replaced Christian.

It was meant to be ambiguous though so that the final scene with Kate would have more impact. Like the phone, it was a clue. We didn't know for certain if this was a flashback or forwards till the final scene...

And what about Jack's dad writing prescriptions vor Jack?
Did jack really write them himself, knowing his daddy have been dead for at least a year? That would be pretty weird.

Or maybe his dad IS alive?

Fubi, I got the impression that Jack had written those prescriptions himself. (If you've ever seen House, MD, the doctor in that show is addicted to pain killers and will do anything he can to get his hands on the pills. I think that's similar to what Jack is going through.)

Anyways, I think that's why he got so angry when the pharmacist was going to verify that. His father wasn't alive and there was no way he could have written the prescriptions. I could be wrong though.

We have never had any alternate time realties in this show, why start now? I think the timeline is real, no twisted reality.We haven't? What would you call Desmond's trip back to the past then? I think there is plenty of evidence that there could be alternate realities which will show themselves next season.

Jack is at the same hospital where he and his father both practiced before the plane crash. What Jack meant, was "my father worked here drunk off his butt for years, everyone knew it, and did nothing about it until I finally had to...(which by the way caused the final rift in our relationship, caused me me to have to go to Australia, find his drunk body and get on the doomed plane to the invisible island.....) Now, I am back, a big hero and all, and you are going to give me crap for having a drink?" Christian is not alive - Jack was supposed to be pretty high and that way of thinking is pretty consistant to an addict's logic.
Thinking that time has warped somehow and Christian in fact didn't die and there are freaky alternative time travels going on, etc is going overboard. (It also goes to say that it makes sense that the crash happened in 2004 and this"flash-forward" is in the present, 2007. Why else would the creators of a show delibrately set it a measly 3 years in the past....they had to in order to set up the long-term story arc of a group of people on an island....strange island mystery.....rescue....bad consequence after the rescue....time frame of the ENTIRE story....3 yrs or more depending on the next 3 seasons.)
Then again I could be wrong.

Christian has to be dead. In fact, TPTB have confirmed before that Christian is literally dead, in the sense where his body is rotting.

When there have been arguments for there being another time dimension, I see a problem with that. Theories about other time dimensions have only witnessed on the Fuselage. I don't see anything of the sort on the actual show. Yes, I understand Desmond traveled back in time, but people here made it more complicated than it needed to be by having all these time-loop theories (where he experienced things like two or three times for every flashback!). Because of Desmond's situation there seems to be a bunch of theories regarding time that haven't come in to play, at least up to this point.

I wrote this in another "Christian - dead or alive?" Thread:
Jack is at the same hospital where he and his father both practiced before the plane crash. What Jack meant, was "my father worked here drunk off his butt for years, everyone knew it, and did nothing about it until I finally had to...(which by the way caused the final rift in our relationship, caused me me to have to go to Australia, find his drunk body and get on the doomed plane to the invisible island.....) Now, I am back, a big hero and all, and you are going to give me crap for having a drink?" Christian is not alive - Jack was supposed to be pretty high and that way of thinking is pretty consistant to an addict's logic.
Thinking that time has warped somehow and Christian in fact didn't die and there are freaky alternative time travels going on, etc is going overboard. (It also goes to say that it makes sense that the crash happened in 2004 and this"flash-forward" is in the present, 2007. Why else would the creators of a show delibrately set it a measly 3 years in the past....they had to in order to set up the long-term story arc of a group of people on an island....strange island mystery.....rescue....bad consequence after the rescue....time frame of the ENTIRE story....3 yrs or more depending on the next 3 seasons.)

But if this is all Jack's rantings, then how did he get the scrip? I'm not saying that Christian wrote out the scrip, but Jack was trying to get a narcotic which requires a scrip. Each doctor has a number (FDA?) and I assume that this number is cancelled when that person dies. So, if this is some decent amount of time after Christian's "death" how would he even presume to get the scrip filled? I don't think Jack's that way off. It means something else.

We know that Christian is dead (remember he dies in Australia), so it could be that Jack forged the scrip and has been keeping up the appearance that his father is alive, when he is dead. What is most revealing is when the pharmacist says she will call his office, and Jack says forget about it and storms off. I think in Jack's "forward" timeline, no one knows that Christian is dead except him.

I think the writers wanted us to keep guessing till the final scene with Kate, but it was the doctor's reactions to Jack's comments about his father being "upstairs" that tipped me off.. . It was meant to be ambiguous though so that the final scene with Kate would have more impact. Like the phone, it was a clue. We didn't know for certain if this was a flashback or forwards till the final scene...

Exactly. And by the way, another clue in the hospital scenes that makes the "down here" line pretty explicit: the Chief of Surgery is named Dr. Himmel. Himmel is German for "Heaven." Upstairs (which Jack did NOT actually say, BTW) = Heaven.

Uh, his name is Hamill, not Himmel.

For the 10,001st time, Jack's father is D.E.A.D.

The two mentions of Christian in the "flash forwards" were clever ways to let the audience assume what they are seeing took place in the past. They never lied to us, just let us make our own incorrect assumptions. I think it was brilliantly written.

Thinking that time has warped somehow and Christian in fact didn't die and there are freaky alternative time travels going on, etc is going overboard.

I don't think that this would be overboard at all. We've already had Desmond, who had flashes of the future, which he used to CHANGE the future when he saved Charlie. Who's to say that 1)The future we are seeing is set in stone, and 2)that this is the future from the same set of circumstance that led to the flight.

Doc Jenson over at EW.com suggest that if you buy into the theorey (an actual scientific theorey that is being studied) that all time exists at once, just like all space, and that we only experience our immediate time, just like we only can experience our immediate space, then when Desmond changed the present and thus the future, he actually changed the past as well. The Losties don't know this, as they are insulated by the island, but it can also explain why there is a plane out there that has been found.

I'm not saying that I think this is the case, I'm just getting a little tired of people ruling out alternate timelines as outlandish or, as you said, "overboard." There really are a number of things that could be pointing toward exactly that, and only time will tell. But as of now, many time related Lost theories are actually quite grounded in what has been presente to us on the show.

Jack was high. High people don't make sense.

Drugs are bad m'kay.

We know that Christian is dead (rmember he dies in Australia), so it could be that Jack forged the scrip and has been keeping up the appearance that his father is alive, when he is dead. What is most revealing is when the pharmacist says she will call his office, and Jack says forget about it and storms off. I think in Jack's "forward" timeline, no one knows that Christian is dead except him.
Interesting idea but.. Wouldn't Jack's mom want to know what happened to her husband? Wouldn't those people miss one of their really good doctors... Just trying to think off every angle...

Jack blames his father for a lot of his problems. Remember flashbacks when he was a boy etc. Christian is dead. Jack is still blaming him and can't take his own responsibility. Simple psychology for a writer to use for his character.

So based on the "go upstairs and get my father" comments, can we assume that Christian is alive? Somehow? Someway?

He didn't say that. He said "Get my father down here." Much more ambiguous.

Christian Shepherd is dead. The clue: The Chief of Surgery's name is Dr. Himmel. Himmel is German for Heaven.

...there was another clue before the last scene that this was a flash forward --- when Jack is in his apartment toward the end, there is a map on the wall with a 'search grid' in the south pacific, as if Jack was trying to find where the island could be.

The fact that Jack mentioned "his drunk dad upstairs" and the fact that only a complete idiot would claim a prescription is from a doctor who was dead for over a year STRONGLY suggests that his dad is somehow still alive.

For the 10,001st time, Jack's father is D.E.A.D.

The two mentions of Christian in the "flash forwards" were clever ways to let the audience assume what they are seeing took place in the past. They never lied to us, just let us make our own incorrect assumptions. I think it was brilliantly written.This makes more sense. Also that Jack was so drunk, high and generally out of it that he didn't know what he was talking about.

The fact that Jack mentioned "his drunk dad upstairs" and the fact that only a complete idiot would claim a prescription is from a doctor who was dead for over a year STRONGLY suggests that his dad is somehow still alive.

It doesn't. Jack wrote a prescription for himself. Signed Doctor Shepard. Most times it'd work, and if not, he'd go to a different store. When told he can't write that prescription himself, tried to bluff his way out by saying it's his father. That's why he leaves when they say they'll call the office.

Interesting idea but.. Wouldn't Jack's mom want to know what happened to her husband? Wouldn't those people miss one of their really good doctors... Just trying to think off every angle...

We don't yet know what Jack told his mother upon his return. He could have told his mother virtually anything... To answer your point, they will not "miss" the elder Dr, Shepherd. Recall that Jack had his father stripped of his license, after he was drinking and responded to a surgery call that went horribly wrong? That would be another angle as to why Jack would use forged scrips and wouldn't want the pharmacist to call his office.

I'm now convinced by others that some of Jack's ravings were drug-induced. Logically, why would anyone care if Jack "brought his father down here..." after he was stripped of his license? It doesn't mean that Jack's father is alive.

I agree with the majority here that Christian Shephard is probably dead.

But let me play devil's advocate. Suppose Desmond going back and time and taking the hit on the head instead of the bartender who owed the guy money, and quantum mechanically speaking caused a quantum shockwave, or altered reality, where Jack's dad gave up drinking for whatever reason. I know this is delving into the realm of "pseudoscience" or science theory, but Lost is suppose to be science fiction show, not something based on hard scientific fact. So, it could be possible...I guess.

I still think Jack was probably just hopped up on Oxycotin. That stuff will make you do some crazy stuff, just ask Robert Downey, Jr. :biggrin:

I also think Jack might be going crazy because he can't comprehend or reconcile what happened on the island with the real world. And it sounds as if he might not be able to talk about it either, possibly a non-disclosure agreement as part of the deal with Oceanic airlines. I guess that may be a reason why they got that "golden ticket."

I could see how the writers could make it more interesting by making the real world change a little because of Desmond's actions when he time traveled possibly making the island and the world skip into an alternate universe, or string, if you prescribe to that Super String Theory stuff. Like The Simpsons episode in which Homer keeps going back in time and changing the present. It was from the Treehouse of Horrors V episode, which is awesome if you haven't seen it.

"I wish. I wish. I wish I didn't kill that fish" :biggrin:
Classic!

I'm pretty sure he's dead. I posted a thread on this, but I probably should've posted it in here...my bad.

Christian has to be dead. In fact, TPTB have confirmed before that Christian is literally dead, in the sense where his body is rotting.

Do you have a source? What I saw or heard or whatever it was, was more along the lines of Christian is dead but maybe not in the way we think or in some sense of the word or something to that effect. I never saw them say in the sense that his body is rotting though. I'm just wondering if you've seen a different interview or something.

So I wouldn't be too sure that he's dead. We haven't seen any hard fact evidence showing him dead and he wasn't in his coffin or anywhere around it....

I think Jack is in state of denial in the FF scenes we saw, he denied his dad was died, denied he wife left him, denied he poses danger on patient in his current state, denied Kate didn't love him anymore. I believe TPTB is right otherwise they will lose all credibilities.

Dead.

Jack was either in a messed up state of mind due to the drinking and painkillers or he was simply bluffing in order to score more pills.

TPTB have said Christian Shephard is dead and then followed it up with a comment to the effect of "dead as we know it." This comment certainly leaves a lot of wiggle room.

There are thousands of ways to portray the severity of a characters depression, drunkeness, post-traumatic disorder etc. Having that character talk about a dead parent as if they were alive is not the most effective (probably not even in the top 1000.)

I am convinced that neither Naomi or Cooper were lying when they spoke of flight 815 being found with all it's passengers dead. I have not been convinced of anyone's theory on how the wreckage of Flight 815 complete with passenger bodies could have been either mocked up or covered up. These theories require way too much detail to ever be explained with the scope of the show. Besides, if you wanted to prevent anyone from finding your "almost impossible to detect" island, wouldn't sabotaging any search and rescue attempt that got even close be easier and more economical?

Jack Shephard whose dead body was found along with the wreckage is now rescued. How do you explain this away without exposing the island which is apparently still secretive and hidden since Jack can't seem to find it.

Mitelos, Lost Time, ageless Richard, Des's flashes of the future etc. Must be telling us something other than "ignore everything we show you."

IMO it seems more plausible at this point to believe that Jack and Kate were returned to a 2007 where the flight 815 passengers were rescued instead of found dead and where Christian Shephard is not dead.

**After seeing so many flashbacks of the tragic lives our Losties led pre-island, it is not that hard to believe that the threat of returning to those lives could be enough to get them to agree to a cover up in order to be returned to an alternate time?

I've heard from people who have done massive amounts of drugs that you don't begin to think that people who were dead are actually alive, no matter how messed up you are.

It just doesn't happen. (Not to mention, if you re-watch the scene, Jack is incredibly deliberate when he says go get my father not once, but twice.)

I'm going with some timeline problem causing all of this. They've been playing with time for the entire series, this is no exception.

TPTB have said Christian Shephard is dead and then followed it up with a comment to the effect of "dead as we know it." This comment certainly leaves a lot of wiggle room.

There are thousands of ways to portray the severity of a characters depression, drunkeness, post-traumatic disorder etc. Having that character talk about a dead parent as if they were alive is not the most effective (probably not even in the top 1000.)

I have not been convinced of anyone's theory on how the wreckage of Flight 815 complete with passenger bodies could have been either mocked up or covered up. These theories require way too much detail to ever be explained with the scope of the show. Besides, if you wanted to prevent anyone from finding your "almost impossible to detect" island, wouldn't sabotaging any search and rescue attempt that got even close be easier and more economical?

Jack Shephard whose dead body was found along with the wreckage is now rescued. How do you explain this away without exposing the island which is apparently still secretive and hidden since Jack can't seem to find it.

Mitelos, Lost Time, ageless Richard, Des's flashes of the future etc. Must be telling us something other than "ignore everything we show you."

IMO it seems more plausible at this point to believe that Jack and Kate were returned to a 2007 where the flight 815 passengers were rescued instead of found dead and where Christian Shephard is not dead.

**After seeing so many flashbacks of the tragic lives our Losties led pre-island, it is not that hard to believe that the threat of returning to those lives could be enough to get them to agree to a cover up in order to be returned to an alternate time?

Here's my theory on the mocked up crash of 815: Naomi lied.

There. That's it. She already lied about Penny.

Here's my theory on the mocked up crash of 815: Naomi lied.

There. That's it. She already lied about Penny.

But didn't Cooper mention it as well or am I just thinking of the "this is not an island" comment...maybe

I did search and i found very little on this this subject but if there is another thread someone please link me and I will edit this post.

I only saw a few threads about what seemed to me to be the single most important part of this episode.

When jack is fighting with the head of surgery he says "get my dad down here and if im more drunk then he is then I will quit" (or "then you can fire me").

This seemed like it was the single most important part of the episode and in my mind may have been the game changer. Christian shepherd is alive and many other who died may also be alive.

I think that anyone who we saw as a mirage/smokey incarnation on the island is not really dead such as Christian, Yemmi, Dave (may not have ever been alive), Walt (we know that) and others.

a theory my brother had, which is find plausible, is that everything that happens on the island or in flashbacks on the island is not real/did not happen. The island is place where people go to find themselves and the flashbacks are/were something that could have happened but didnt.

When people return to their normal lives they resync with reality and the events of the island and the flashbacks no longer exist/didnt happen. with this theory anything that happened in a flashback ddint actually happen and in the next two season we will see, through flash forwards, what actually happened./

Come on, think about this for a second: the flashbacks are a device that allows us to flesh out what we're seeing in the context of the lives the characters led before they come to the island. And Christian Shepard died OFF the island. He's dead. Completely and utterly. We haven't seen timeline weirdness throughout the show. It only happened in one instance only: Desmond.

I always had the theory that Jack's father was not dead in the Island. We never saw the body (and we saw his empty coffin) and in fact we saw him walking across the Island in Season 1, leading Jack to the caves, we have no elements to be sure that that's was just a Jack's vision. If Locke was able to walk again, Rose's cancer disappeared, why Christian Sheppard cannot come back from the Deaths?

If he's utterly dead, where's the body? It was missing. He's somewhere on the island.

The body could be missing and still be dead.

I don't believe he's alive for a simple fact: we've seen no revenants on the show yet. Mikhail doesn't count: no one actually checked if he was killed.

However, look at the visions: Ben's mother never went to the island, how could she be alive there? And Yemi was very much dead, Eko found his body.

Jack was kind of hopped up on pain killers; maybe he just didn't have the presence of mind to remember that his dad's dead.

I do think it's entirely possible that Christian Shepherd is alive. I never bought into that notion before (not finding his body in the coffin after the plane crash wasn't that surprising to me), but with the introduction of a bizarre flash-forward, anything is possible and I'm now leaning towards more bizarre theories...

The flash-forward seemed like an alternate reality future -- one in which both of their dead fathers might now be alive. In addition to Jack's references to his dad, we had saw Kate not in jail and not on the run, as if she didn't murder her father. If it were only Jack rambling about his dad or only a free Kate, there could be other explanations. But both of them being in situations that suggest their fathers are alive leads me to believe they are.

My theory is that in order to leave the island, the paths of their lives had to be altered so that they wouldn't have ended up on the island:

For Jack, that means that instead of ratting out his father for operating drunk, he went along with his father's story. By doing that, his father wouldn't have run off to Australia and wouldn't have drank himself to death. And Jack wouldn't have followed. Since it was a fairly recent event change for Jack, his life didn't look much different. He was still working at the same hospital as his father and he was still estranged (or divorced) from his wife.

For Kate, it means she had to not be a fugitive. And in order to undo her crimes, you have to go all the way back to the murder of her father. So Kate's life underwent a more significant change. Instead of living under assumed names, driving stolen cars and getting cash wired to her, she appeared to be settled with someone and doing well.

How? Why? I have no idea yet, but I've got 8 months to try to figure it out ;)

Jack was kind of hopped up on pain killers; maybe he just didn't have the presence of mind to remember that his dad's dead.

Or maybe he was saying it on purpose to emphasize the fact that he's hitting bottom. Maybe it was a cry for help in comparing his state of mind to how his father was when he was still a surgeon. I'm sure that he remembers his father died. Even if he was drunk and/or out of his mind, he'd remember the death of his father. After all, it WAS the reason he was on Oceanic flight 815. I'm sure every person on that flight remembers what they were doing in Australia.

My theory is that in order to leave the island, the paths of their lives had to be altered so that they wouldn't have ended up on the island:

For Jack, that means that instead of ratting out his father for operating drunk, he went along with his father's story. By doing that, his father wouldn't have run off to Australia and wouldn't have drank himself to death. And Jack wouldn't have followed. Since it was a fairly recent event change for Jack, his life didn't look much different. He was still working at the same hospital as his father and he was still estranged (or divorced) from his wife.

For Kate, it means she had to not be a fugitive. And in order to undo her crimes, you have to go all the way back to the murder of her father. So Kate's life underwent a more significant change. Instead of living under assumed names, driving stolen cars and getting cash wired to her, she appeared to be settled with someone and doing well.

How? Why? I have no idea yet, but I've got 8 months to try to figure it out ;)

Nice. That is a great theory, can't say much more than that.

TPTB said that when someone died they stayed dead. Christian shepard dies off the island. When Ben is trying to convince Jack not to call the boat he lists off all the things that make his life not worth living off the island, including the death of his father. Ths island did not bring shannon or boone or eko or ethan or etc back to life, why would it bring back a corpse that was brought to the island?

Jack's state of mind is not right at the moment. He is portrayed as a drunken pain killer addict. He also was under alot of stress from the accident that he caused. It is not out of the realm of posssibility that he is not seeing reality correctly.

For Jack, that means that instead of ratting out his father for operating drunk, he went along with his father's story. By doing that, his father wouldn't have run off to Australia and wouldn't have drank himself to death. And Jack wouldn't have followed. Since it was a fairly recent event change for Jack, his life didn't look much different. He was still working at the same hospital as his father ...

Except he's not. Christian Shephard was Chief of Surgery at St. Sebastian's. If he's alive, he's lost his job to the new guy. And if Jack were still an active doctor at St. Sebastian's, you'd think the new Chief of Surgery would recognize him. So....

We haven't seen timeline weirdness throughout the show. It only happened in one instance only: Desmond.

And now Walt. And, if Naomi was tellingt he truth, which I believe, Penny.
100%

When jack is fighting with the head of surgery he says "get my dad down here and if im more drunk then he is then I will quit" (or "then you can fire me").

This seemed like it was the single most important part of the episode and in my mind may have been the game changer. Christian shepherd is alive and many other who died may also be alive.

You didn't notice that the new head of surgury looked at Jack like he was completely insane when he said this? Christian is dead.
100%
I always had the theory that Jack's father was not dead in the Island. We never saw the body (and we saw his empty coffin)

We did see his body, when Jack identified it in the morgue in Sydney.

I believe he's alive, and that this is a parallel universe. Watch the confrontation scene again. When Jack says "get my father down here" he's pointing down the hall, not up toward a higher floor. Even the first time I saw it, I took it to mean that his father was elsewhere (not at the hospital) and that Jack was telling the head of surgery to get his father "down here (to the hospital)" from home.

EDIT: here's a screen grab: http://neutronstar.org/pix/downhere.jpg

The pharmacy scene is just as easily explained. I assumed that Jack had forged a prescription, and that's why he didn't want the pharmacist calling his dad's office to confirm. After the end-of-episode reveal, I thought about it and came to the conclusion that he had still forged it, but that his father would not back him up even if he were still practicing.

In other words, the idea that his dad is alive can be perfectly consistent with events in the episode. To be consistent with the rest of the series, it requires parallel universes or altered timelines (which are going to amount to the same thing). I have a theory about that and the island's place in it, which I'll write up one of these days.

-steve

Ths island did not bring shannon or boone or eko or ethan or etc back to life,

But it brought Mikhail (twice)...

And now Walt. And, if Naomi was tellingt he truth, which I believe, Penny.
100%


Where's the timeline weirdness there? Walt appeared as a vision, clearly. And even if he didn't, they made a point of filming the scene so he looked shorter. They can't help it if he looks like a teenager because he IS one. Not sure what you're pointing out about Penny there.
100%
But it brought Mikhail (twice)...

How do you know he was ever killed?

who takes the bodies of the dead ... ie christian, ekos brother yemi

Smokey?

At this point, I don't think it matters. It's a way to add mystery and spookiness.

But it brought Mikhail (twice)...

Not really. After the first time Mikhail commented that the fence wasn't set to a fatal dosage or something along those lines. The second time, well, I'm sure we'll learn more but nobody actually checked if he was dead.

I really do not think Christian Sheppard is alive on the island and especially not in the flash forward. The doctor introduces himself as the Chief of Surgery......thats very important because that WAS Christians old job, but now he's dead. When Jack mentions his father the doctor even gives him a weird look, Jack is just really messed up at this point for reasons we still don't know.

I really do not think Christian Sheppard is alive on the island and especially not in the flash forward. The doctor introduces himself as the Chief of Surgery......thats very important because that WAS Christians old job, but now he's dead. When Jack mentions his father the doctor even gives him a weird look, Jack is just really messed up at this point for reasons we still don't know.

We do know why he was messed up, he was drinking heavily and highly medicated.

Charlie was dead once.

Regardless, I don't think Christian Shepard was ever on the plane. Just his coffin. Jack made it perfectly clear that he was never going to open that coffin again, he was just going to bury it.

Why would the airline break Australian law for this guy, putting their entire business at risk, to ship a body out of the country before the government was ready to release it?

So they load the coffin on the plane, Jack is none the wiser and shuts up. Supposing the flight had made it to America ok, they could have contacted him in L.A. and let him know that "unbeknownst to them" the government had held the body back. They could have been very apologetic, gotten the body out as quickly as possible. Perhaps they have lost one potential repeat passenger but they wouldn't have put their license to operate in jeopardy.

The missing body is very easy to explain and takes no "supernatural" explanation at all.

Charlie was dead once.

Regardless, I don't think Christian Shepard was ever on the plane. Just his coffin. Jack made it perfectly clear that he was never going to open that coffin again, he was just going to bury it.

Why would the airline break Australian law for this guy, putting their entire business at risk, to ship a body out of the country before the government was ready to release it?

So they load the coffin on the plane, Jack is none the wiser and shuts up. Supposing the flight had made it to America ok, they could have contacted him in L.A. and let him know that "unbeknownst to them" the government had held the body back. They could have been very apologetic, gotten the body out as quickly as possible. Perhaps they have lost one potential repeat passenger but they wouldn't have put their license to operate in jeopardy.

The missing body is very easy to explain and takes no "supernatural" explanation at all.

Charlie wasn't dead, he just had a near-death experience. I don't think that an airline would put an empty coffin on a plane and lie by saying that a dead person's in it. Because once Jack got back to the US, he and whoever else is taking the body to the funeral would definitely notice that the casket is over 100 pounds too light, and the airline would be at a high risk of getting sued. If anything, the airline would've just refused to put the coffin on the plane and if Jack didn't stop complaining about it, they would have security remove him from the airport.

Charlie wasn't dead, he just had a near-death experience. I don't think that an airline would put an empty coffin on a plane and lie by saying that a dead person's in it. Because once Jack got back to the US, he and whoever else is taking the body to the funeral would definitely notice that the casket is over 100 pounds too light, and the airline would be at a high risk of getting sued. If anything, the airline would've just refused to put the coffin on the plane and if Jack didn't stop complaining about it, they would have security remove him from the airport.

Occam's Razor.

Occam's Razor.

Okay, I admit that I did make a lot of assumptions and I don't know how things are in Australia, but in the US people sue each other over every little thing, and a missing body is not a little thing. I guess I just can't believe that an airline would do something like that. It's seems more likely that someone on the island stole the body before Jack found the coffin.

80860

Okay, I admit that I did make a lot of assumptions and I don't know how things are in Australia, but in the US people sue each other over every little thing, and a missing body is not a little thing. I guess I just can't believe that an airline would do something like that. It's seems more likely that someone on the island stole the body before Jack found the coffin.

Anything is possible Hela. We may never know. What's worse though? A lawsuit that the Australian Government is likely going to support the side of the defendant, and maybe losing a couple million in settlement, or shipping out a body, and losing multi-millions or more from losing your license to operate in at least one country, possibly more as word spreads that your Airline will flagrantly ignore local and international laws.

I would like to believe it was Smokey, but I try to apply Occam's Razor to all theories. It may take away from the 'mystery', but if I turn out to be wrong, it's more surprising :biggrin:

With a show like Lost, i guess you can never tell what's going to happen. And since so many people are theorizing about Jack's dad, the writers probably won't tell what happened to him until mid-season 6. It would be interesting if the airline took the body, but it's going to be a long time 'til we find out. They haven't even given us a hint as to what the whispers are yet.

gothfae, are you REALLY serious, because if you really think there's no body cause they told Jack "sure, we'll take it anyway", open the coffin, remove the body placing it wherever... you're just insane.

I have a question...why is this a poll thread but the poll is closed?

i think Christian is dead because the doctor Jack is talking to, he's the chief of surgery it's written on his blouse! And Chritian was the previous chief of surgery no?

It's possible that in the future Ben could wheel and deal with Jack about his father...in the same fashion that he did w/Juliet and her sister -- like, oh Jacob/the Island can fix that, etc. I can hear it now, "Jack, your father's DNA landed on this island...you know what this island can do..."

So the idea of Christian coming back is toyed with, but maybe never fully realized. I don't know. The ff in Though the Looking Glass seemed like a "let the chips fall where they may" ep. A big tease, and a tug at the heart strings. I mean, c'mon, no one likes to see Jack cry.

If Ben offered to bring Christian back to life, would Jack take it? I think not, it would be an abomination really.

Well, if everything comes out about Claire...and Jack has wanted to make amends...

I think at some point it could be a barganing chip. Whether or not Jack would take it, or Ben could really do it...that's another thing.

Can we just let the man die already? :confused:

I really do not think Christian Sheppard is alive on the island and especially not in the flash forward. The doctor introduces himself as the Chief of Surgery......thats very important because that WAS Christians old job, but now he's dead. When Jack mentions his father the doctor even gives him a weird look, Jack is just really messed up at this point for reasons we still don't know.

The doctor introducing himself as Chief of Surgery doesn't necessarily means that Christian Sheppard is dead. It might just mean that Christian Sheppard was fire/or step down from Chief of surgery after Jack reported him.


Okay, I admit that I did make a lot of assumptions and I don't know how things are in Australia, but in the US people sue each other over every little thing, and a missing body is not a little thing. I guess I just can't believe that an airline would do something like that. It's seems more likely that someone on the island stole the body before Jack found the coffin.

Did anyone think about why would a airline would steal a body? it would not only be against the law, but where would would a airline stash a dead body ? how would they be able to get the body out of the coffin without Jack, or someone noticing it. ( Note: The body would not likely be in the coffin for transportation.I believe it would have to be stored some other way in order to transport it across the country.). Plus, the coffin was lock when Jack tried to open it. Did anyone else think that maybe that wasn't Jack's father's coffin, but a coffin for Sayid's dead friend who he was suppose to bring back to be buried?


If Ben offered to bring Christian back to life, would Jack take it? I think not, it would be an abomination really

True. So true. Jack said he wanted it be over. He do not seem like a person who would want his father brought back from the dead.

I just remembered something that I hope is relevant to this topic.


In the first episode of season 3, we see Jack in the aqua tank. In the flashback of this episode we see Jack talking with his dad, and attacking his dad at an AA meeting. Also Jack is trying to find out all of his ex-wive's contacts on her phone, when Jack's dad says 'Let it go jack'.
On the island Jack tries to use the intercom in the tank, and hears his dad say 'Let it go Jack'. When Juliette enters the room, Jack questions the intercom to which Juliette replies:

"The drugs we gave you when we brought you here have a fairly serious side effect, dehydration. Your head is probably soar. Your throat is raw and if you don't eat or drink something soon you're to start hallucinating."

In TTLG Jack is high on drugs and starts talking about his father. Connection maybe? :)

I really don´t know... But I hope he is alive. John Terry is just awesome, and Christian is my favourite "FB´s character".
Now, with this FF thing, how amazing would be JT becoming a regular next season? :biggrin:

In my personal opinion, I believe Jack's father is dead. All the comments made were just to throw you off into thinking it was a flash-back, when it was really a flash-forward.

BUT

If we're going with the whole good bad, white, black aspect of the show. There seems to be some kind of alternate dimension. I'm assuming their are two because of the good bad white black etc. So what if Jack's father really is alive. And what if the Kate HE is referring is Tom or Kevin. And as someone pointed out, Kate isn't a fugitive in this other dimension. We know that when someone dies in one dimension, the other will eventually die by whatever means or course correction as Ms. Hawking put it. Even if Christian may be alive, he would eventually die because the Christian from our Jack's dimension died. Same with Tom, if that's who Kate is with. Unless she is with Kevin. The one she married in I DO. Their parallel worlds. One world, the characters make bad choices, while the other make better choices. The opposites.

We know they have said that Christian is dead but we all know they play on words so maybe they were implying that Jack's father is dead, the one from his (their) dimension. I think until DL or CC confirm that flash-forward Christian is indeed dead, we won't know for sure until something happens on the show to confirm it.

I really can't think of a reason why Jack believes their "lying" and that he's sick of lying. What are they lying about? I'm sure people know about the plane crash and their return. Hence the golden passes. What exactly is wrong that Jack seems to think they need to go back? Is it because the reality they are in is not their own? That they have to lie to people about who they "really" are. I guess we won't really have a better understanding of this theory and issue until season 4.

It was revealed in the podcast that TPTB are not real big believers in "alternate or parallel universes". In my onpinion, Christian is dead - in every universe.

Doc

I say Christian is dead too, although that's just my opinion and I am very interested to see what happens.

I think it's an interesting idea that Jack's father might still be alive somewhere. I'm holding out for more logical explanations, like maybe he faked his death to run even further away. But what's further than Australia? The thing that draws me the most to this thread is the lengths to which Jack will go to hold on to his father, whether his father is present or not. He would have never become a surgeon if not for his father. He would have never taken that kind of god-like leadership role. He wouldn't have been running around like that in the first episode like he was responsible for all these people. What an intense little guy he is.

maybe he wouldn't have become a doctor if it hadn't been for his father. I think that's where it ends though. Jack is very different from his father. I can't see Christian ever being a leader and wanting to take care of people the way Jack does. Jack is a better man than his father ever was.

It was revealed in the podcast that TPTB are not real big believers in "alternate or parallel universes". In my onpinion, Christian is dead - in every universe.

Doc


Well there goes a ton of my theories then LOL

Well, I figured I should get out of the spoilers forum for a while, so here's my take on the CS issue: Christian Shephard is dead. Here's the evidence:

1) Jack identified his body on the morgue.

Christian had been missing for 3 days, he died the first night of those three days, as per the scrip directions from Two for the Road http://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/220_two_final.pdf, page 45:

Because her gut is telling her that if she lets this guy go in that bar something f****** terrible is going to happen. And we know she’s right, because after Christian Shephard has a heart-to-heart with Sawyer in that bar, he is going to die in the f****** alley behind it.

2) There's an autopsy report.

As per Juliet and Jack's conversation in ATOTC (http://www.losthatch.com/transcripts.aspx):
Juliet: I know that you're a spinal surgeon based out of St. Sebastian's Hospital in Los Angeles. I know that you went to Columbia and you graduated med school a year faster than anyone else. I know that you were married. Only once and you contested the divorce. I know your father died in Sydney. I know this because I have a copy of his autopsy report.
Jack: How... how did you get...
Juliet: We got it.

If Christian had been in a coma or paralyzed, or whatever, the autopsy alone would have killed him, and Jack is aware that there's an autopsy report. He probably presented that to the Medical Examiner to get a death certificate so that he could put his dad on the plane.

3) Damon and Carlton have confirmed CS is dead, so has Gregg Nations and even Jorge García.

You are welcomed to check the VIP forums for Gregg and Jorge's posts confirming this. There are plenty of interviews and podcasts were Damon and Carlton have confirmed CS is dead, but I'll just quote these 2:

ComicCon 2006 (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Official_Lost_Podcast_transcript/July_31%2C_2006 - Scroll down to Fan 24's questions):

Carlton Cuse: Well, I mean, that would be how we would tell her story. So, sort of the example of Christian Shephard, who was dead at the beginning of the show, so… but we learned his story by watching Jack’s flashbacks… and even seeing him in other characters’ flashbacks as well, so that might be one way that we could see more of Libby’s story.

815 Crash Anniversary Podcast on September 2007 (http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/podcast (http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/podcast) - Minute 23:18):

Carlton Cuse: Look at Christian Shephard, that dude's done 10 episodes since he's been dead

4) Damon and Carlton have said that once you are dead on the show, you remain dead:

ComicCon 2006: (http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Official_Lost_Podcast_transcript/July_31%2C_2006 - Also after Fan 24 questions)

Damon Lindelof: You know, we have a hard and fast rule on the show, that we will always stick… that is, when a character dies on the show, they’re dead. The only time you’ll see them again is in someone else’s flashback. So, um, we do that because we want the stakes on the island to be real—there are characters who have died who have appeared in other people’s memories.

5) The legalities of transporting dead bodies / airline liabilities

I travel a lot. As a business consultant, I find myself on planes more than 10 times a year, and I've already gone through 3 or 4 passports because I've run out of sheets to stamp, even though I have not yet r