What's everyone's take on Sawyer in this ep? Where do you think his character is going?

I sort of got this chill when Sawyer killed Mr. Friendly... seemed a bit much... this is the man that didn't want to kill Ben a few eps before. Has Sawyer gotten a taste of vengeance & been more corrupted than he was before...

He was real nasty to Kate... but that's typical of Sawyer when he's dealing with some inner trauma... but we saw him big time reverting... being nasty, suicide missions... so where's his character going?

He's going to a very dark place. It makes me :sob:.

He is the first lostie to get the "sickness"

He's going to a very dark place. It makes me :sob:.

Yeah... unfortunately I have to say I agree... something was off in that scene... he enjoyed that a little too much...

Sawyer freaked me out a little bit tonight.. he seems to be spiraling out of control. He was really cold to Kate, and I'm still not sure how I feel about the Tom thing. I guess we shouldn't be surprised, he's been living with these issues since childhood and they're just not going to disappear overnight. I think Sawyer has many many things to sort through before he finds some kind of peace.

Sawyer freaked me out a little bit tonight.. he seems to be spiraling out of control. He was really cold to Kate, and I'm still not sure how I feel about the Tom thing. I guess we shouldn't be surprised, he's been living with these issues since childhood and they're just not going to disappear overnight. I think Sawyer has many many things to sort through before he finds some kind of peace.

I definitely think we're going to see Sawyer darker than ever before next season... I just hope it doesn't land him in a coffin flashforwarding all over the place...

What's everyone's take on Sawyer in this ep? Where do you think his character is going?

I sort of got this chill when Sawyer killed Mr. Friendly... seemed a bit much... this is the man that didn't want to kill Ben a few eps before. Has Sawyer gotten a taste of vengeance & been more corrupted than he was before...

He was real nasty to Kate... but that's typical of Sawyer when he's dealing with some inner trauma... but we saw him big time reverting... being nasty, suicide missions... so where's his character going?

Look, I know that this is a TV show, but if someone shot me (like Tom shot Sawyer on the raft) I'd put one in their head, and then kick some sand in his yap. Tom had his chance to make things right many times, and didn't. Good riddance Tom. Once an other, always an other (Juliet, I hope you're next)

Two things:
1. The killing of Cooper was a negative thing that was bound to hurt Sawyer. Redemption comes from acceptance and forgiveness, not revenge. Therefore that killing/murder was going to send him to a bad place.
2. Tom tried to justify himself and give up, but Others apologists should not forget the kidnapping of Walt.

I thought Sawyer (not to mention Sayid) was a bad ***. Went back to save his friends (whether he calls them that or not), and then got some revenge on Tom. That guy might have gotten all chirpy and cuddly towards the end, but Sawyer was kind enough to remind us that this was the guy who started it all... back when the others were still a mystery and frightening.

1. The killing of Cooper was a negative thing that was bound to hurt Sawyer. Redemption comes from acceptance and forgiveness, not revenge. Therefore that killing/murder was going to send him to a bad place.


I agree on that. He's one of my favorite characters and i was glad to see him go back because it was what Kate wanted ....but the killing of Tom was really too much! He's acting so cold in that scene. :frown: Killing Cooper was the worst thing that could happen to him... i hope Kate will understand what's happening to him...if he lets her in...:undecide:
because i still think she's her redemption...she has already been, he had changed and bam Richard and Locke made him miserable again...
But i hope and think there's still hope for him.

I would love to see a screen cap of the look on his face when he said I didn't believe him
I didn't think about it before I saw your post, but it totally is darth sawyer, that pic of anakin when he is starting to turn.

to the dark side he turns, yes?

I thought it was a powerful scene. Well scripted and really showed that Sawyer doesnt forget...anything!

I don't know....even though we, as the viewers, have gotten to see a "nicer" side of Tom (and gain some empathy for him), think about it from Sawyer's POV. The Others have been kidnapping Losties, shooting Losties, kidnapping children off rescue rafts, holding Losties captive and hurting them, etc etc. Then he's faced with the *very first* Other he ever saw, which was under life-threatening circumstances.

Even though he may be in a darker place mentally, I can see why.

here's a pic:
http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x22-2/normal_3x22-glass1641.jpg

it doesn't matter if Tom is or isn't a good guy...he killed him in cold blood and was drinking a beer just after! he deals with murder too easily for me!

Like the thread title ... but Sawyer didn't kill anyone innocent in his revenge spree. Vader slaughtered women and children sand people when he got revenge for his mother and then killed all the young Jedi to secure his continued power. Now that is Darth Vader evil.

Sawyer merely killed two people to whom he had sworn revenge, a la Kill Bill.

Sawyer and Zeke had un-finished business.

Sawyer kill more than two people in his life:
-Franck Duckett
-an other at the end of season 2
-Cooper
-Tom

For a guy who pretended to not be a killer to Locke one week ago...it's a lot!
He makes me think of Ben ! lol My two favorites characters on the show!

Sawyer is going to a dark place, but he is justified.

Tom deserved to be shot on sight, ya cant trust these people , now finally he did what he needed to do. Dont forget , these 'others' are all evil, probably even juliet.

Look, I know that this is a TV show, but if someone shot me (like Tom shot Sawyer on the raft) I'd put one in their head, and then kick some sand in his yap. Tom had his chance to make things right many times, and didn't. Good riddance Tom. Once an other, always an other (Juliet, I hope you're next)


Agreed!

I actually think the kiloing of Tom will keep Saweyer from going to a dark place. He was manipulated into killing Cooper and it ate at him. He chose to kill Tom and it will reinforce for him that he can make decisions for himself.

Kill Bill I think is a better reference than Darth Vader for the reasons posted above. I like that one actually - makes me think a little differently. I was upset that Sawyer killed Tom like that but yes, we do forget that Tom hasn't been a good guy and wasn't a good guy. Also in that same scened it was Tom that was saying we should have shot them...meaning Bernard, Jin and Sayid.

Tom wanted to kill Bernard, Jin and Sayid. He told the other guy that putting bullets in the sand was a waste they should kill them. I don't feel bad for him. He wasn't a nice person.

Indeed. Five minutes before Sawyer killed him Tom was arguing that they should kill Sayid, Jin, and Bernard, couple that especially with all the other stuff he's done like "taking the kid off the raft" and he deserved to die.

Tom wanted to kill Bernard, Jin and Sayid. He told the other guy that putting bullets in the sand was a waste they should kill them. I don't feel bad for him. He wasn't a nice person.

Yes and I believe Juliet and Sawyer might have heard him say that as well...Hurley didn't but Juliet and Sawyer were standing right there.

The other thing that you guys are forgetting to mention is the reason why he went back. It was because he did not want Kate to go back. He was risking his life for her. He knew after talking to her that she would go back whether he wanted her to or not. He felt that by being a dick to her and going back himself he could keep her out of harms way. He did the same for Hurley by telling him he was to fat to go. He may be a dick about it but his intentions are good. After everything that has been done to his friends especially Kate and him when they were captured he was pissed and had had enough so Tom got killed.

Tom deserved to be shot on sight, ya cant trust these people , now finally he did what he needed to do. Dont forget , these 'others' are all evil, probably even juliet.

You know the others morality seems to be eye for an eye according to Alex... if the losties are acting the same way....i don't get what makes them so different!
I think in this show they all have reasons to kill people...the others and the losties!
So i don't get what makes the others so evil and not the losties?
Charlie said they started!? Okay so if we considered things like that...kate started to kill her father! He wasn't nice...Okay...but he probably wasn't nice because of this backstory too... Ben is not always nice...but now we know why...his father told all his life he has killed his mother! All these is just a chain reaction...a chain reaction that can only be stopped by someone who forgives! Exactly what sayid's victim has done in his flashback episode. Revenge has never been a solution...look at sawyer since he get his revenge...he doesn't feel relieved and great...he feels more guilty and thinks is a bad person...he's self destructive once again... hate and revenge are not solutions and never will be!
At least that's what i think!

The other thing that you guys are forgetting to mention is the reason why he went back. It was because he did not want Kate to go back. He was risking his life for her. He knew after talking to her that she would go back whether he wanted her to or not. He felt that by being a dick to her and going back himself he could keep her out of harms way. He did the same for Hurley by telling him he was to fat to go. He may be a dick about it but his intentions are good.

I agree on that... but i think he's on a destructive way since he killed Cooper...and i don't think that killing Tom will make him feel better...on the contrary...

Of course killing Cooper sent him to a dark place! It's also made him realize he's not an island. He turns over the tape recorder, goes back to help the shooters, he's messed up big time over what he thought would be the fix in his life (killing Cooper) but doesn't know how to explain how the whole chain of events happened and, to him, it alll started with Tom taking Walt and having him shot and the raftees were left to drown.
If you are going to take things on this show at face value, i. e., what he or she says, then you are going to miss a lot of the context of this show. Look at his face, watch his body language, see how he's trying to protect not only Kate but Hurley as well. Does he go about it the wrong way? Sometimes. Is he dark? You betcha. I think he has to be. I think in some ways Sayid is just as dark but he's quieter about it. He can't be little Jimmie Sunshine and help his friends/family survive this mess. Should he regret killing Tom? Not for a second. Surrender, schmurrender! Tom would have found a way to get loose - he'd proably talk Bernard into letting him go - and then the crap would have really hit the fan! Remember how offended Tom seemed that the Losties had killed seven of his people? Offended! I guess they should have just laid in their tents and taken whatever the Others wanted to do. I think Sawyer did the only thing he knew to do in order to keep Kate safe - execute Tom.
He's so closed in on himself right now and that's to be expected since he hasn't had a moment to process what happened in the ship with Cooper and how all that could be possible and how it came to be. For once, Kate was noticing and asking the right questions. I just hope that she will start looking beneath the surface again and realize something terribly wrong happened and find a way to draw it out of Sawyer before the poison of it destroys him.

I don't know....even though we, as the viewers, have gotten to see a "nicer" side of Tom (and gain some empathy for him), think about it from Sawyer's POV. The Others have been kidnapping Losties, shooting Losties, kidnapping children off rescue rafts, holding Losties captive and hurting them, etc etc. Then he's faced with the *very first* Other he ever saw, which was under life-threatening circumstances.

Even though he may be in a darker place mentally, I can see why.



I agree. And, not only that, but it was only about 2 weeks ago or so that they had a gun to Sawyer's head about to kill him? I can totally understand everything that made him do it. Not to mention that the Others tell lies all the time. I wouldn't have believed Tom either if I were in Sawyer's position.

2. Tom tried to justify himself and give up, but Others apologists should not forget the kidnapping of Walt.

I am by no means an apolgist of The Others. I wanted to take Tom's proverbial rocks and throw them at his head when he was preaching to Jack about how men who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks.

BUT.

I would not want to live in a world where someone like Sawyer (or any one person for that matter, but that's another topic) gets to decide who lives and dies and how people should pay for their sins.

Over the last three months, Sawyer has killed:

1. A defenseless old man in Australia, without so much as a "you the real Sawyer by the way?"

2. An Other who was stalking them through the forest (OK, this one is more or less justified, although Kate's idea about "turning the tables" on them makes no sense)

3. An evil b*astard, but a tied up, evil b*astard none the less.

4.. An defenseless enemy who had surrendered.

5. The :censored: frog. I defended him on that, btw.

I don't care how bada** this may make him look and the truth is I prefer him with a darker twist rather than the happyclappy nauseating Jimmy of early season 3, I can't bring myself to feel sorry for him. He's a coward.

You know the others morality seems to be eye for an eye according to Alex... if the losties are acting the same way....i don't get what makes them so different!

:shesaid:

I thought Sawyer killing Tom was the perfect way to tie up the whole Tom character and make good on Sawyer's "you and me ain't done Zeke" comment.

Sawyer is a man who has fulfilled his life's purpose. Think on the fact that he carried that letter around with him for decades. Think even of the fact that he took the name Sawyer. No matter what else he did in life, he had one very specific purpose -- and a dark purpose at that -- kill the real Sawyer.

Now he's done that. He's a man adrift, a man without direction, a man who has had a purpose in life for all those years, and now no longer does. If he had issues to work out before, they were nothing compared to what he has to face now. In a sense, we can see him as a guy who, for most of his life, has known who Sawyer is. Now Sawyer is dead, and he has to figure out who James Ford is. And I'll be that, with a little introspection, he probably doesn't much like what he sees.

I thought Sawyer killing Tom was the perfect way to tie up the whole Tom character and make good on Sawyer's "you and me ain't done Zeke" comment.

Right on! I screamed YES at the top of my lungs when he shot that slimeball Tom.

I can't believe the number of people who think it was unjustified. A male/female thing? (I'm male).

Um, no I'm a goil

Well I have to somewhat disagree with the whole Sawyer being a cold blooded killer. I thought it was absolutely necessary what he did. Sawyer's explanation of killing Tom was that he didn't believe that he had given up. I remember the camera had zoomed in on tom's belt earlier, showing he had two guns. One in his belt and one in his hand. So maybe Sawyer killed him as a precaution, in case Tom's "I give up" was followed by him taking his gun out of his belt and and trying to shoot one of them. He just didn't want to take that chance. And I for one was glad, cause Tom deserved it.

I can't believe the number of people who think it was unjustified. A male/female thing? (I'm male).

I'm a woman!
Sawyer is my favorite character on the show with Ben.
But a murder is never justified to me!;) unless it's self defense and it clearly wasn't in that case.
But i'm not at all worried...i love when Sawyer act like a jerk and hates himself! lol :biggrin:

You know the others morality seems to be eye for an eye according to Alex... if the losties are acting the same way....i don't get what makes them so different!
I think in this show they all have reasons to kill people...the others and the losties!
So i don't get what makes the others so evil and not the losties?
Charlie said they started!? Okay so if we considered things like that...kate started to kill her father! He wasn't nice...Okay...but he probably wasn't nice because of this backstory too... Ben is not always nice...but now we know why...his father told all his life he has killed his mother! All these is just a chain reaction...a chain reaction that can only be stopped by someone who forgives! Exactly what sayid's victim has done in his flashback episode. Revenge has never been a solution...look at sawyer since he get his revenge...he doesn't feel relieved and great...he feels more guilty and thinks is a bad person...he's self destructive once again... hate and revenge are not solutions and never will be!
At least that's what i think!



I agree on that... but i think he's on a destructive way since he killed Cooper...and i don't think that killing Tom will make him feel better...on the contrary...



Random killings and abductions of the losties kinda has a lot to do with them being evil. As far as im concerned the losties are a-ok killing all of the others. The losties didnt ask for this, they just got dropped on an island and then attacked. I think people forget this stuff. Freindly wasnt a nice guy, he stole walt and bombed thier raft. Why do people keep forgetting this bad stuff? The others are unredeemable.

I don't know....even though we, as the viewers, have gotten to see a "nicer" side of Tom (and gain some empathy for him), think about it from Sawyer's POV. The Others have been kidnapping Losties, shooting Losties, kidnapping children off rescue rafts, holding Losties captive and hurting them, etc etc. Then he's faced with the *very first* Other he ever saw, which was under life-threatening circumstances.

Even though he may be in a darker place mentally, I can see why.

I think any of us can understand why he's did what he did... and though it doesn't compare in severity... Anakin turned to protect his girl... which is understandable... but not necessarily "right."

Sawyer was starting to do more of the "right" thing... and it seems to me like he got his taste of vengeance... and it might have blurred the lines for him... between what is "right" and what is "wrong."
100%
Like the thread title ... but Sawyer didn't kill anyone innocent in his revenge spree. Vader slaughtered women and children sand people when he got revenge for his mother and then killed all the young Jedi to secure his continued power. Now that is Darth Vader evil.

Sawyer merely killed two people to whom he had sworn revenge, a la Kill Bill.

Sawyer and Zeke had un-finished business.

Oh definitely... I totally agree with you... I meant to imply that Sawyer may end up going to the "dark side..." he may not completely be there yet... but Anakin started off with killing guilty people & then moved on to the innocent...

lol... gotta love this "Lost"/"Star Wars" comparison...

I think another contributing factor to Sawyers possible shift to the dark side (to follow the SW analogies) is the fact that he killed Cooper. His entire identity up to this point was built on finding Cooper, it was his sense of purpose. Now that Cooper is dead and Sawyer has finished that chapter of his life, which to this point has been all consuming, I'm sure he feels like the ground has fallen out from underneath him.
Given his nihilistic state of mind, I think this played a part in how easy it was for him to shoot Tom...not to say he didn't deserve it.

Well he killed Cooper which had a effect on him and probably had him wondering what to do next since most of his life was devoted to finding the real Sawyer.
He is going through some changes and Kate has been well kind of a let down to him since it is very obvious she is into Jack and jealous of Juliet. I would probably be mean to her as well.
He is in a war and sick of getting shot at, punched, shocked, etc and he also does not trust the others. After what he has been through I would not trust them either and probably would have done the same thing he did.
I have said it before but Sawyer rules and is one person you can count on to help you out if you are in danger. I would hide my toothpaste from him as he would take that to trade back to me in a heart beat but I know in a fight he would have my back.

I completely agree that Tom's murder was 100% justified. The Losties are living on an island with no real justice system, and with a group of "others" who have been kidnapping and killing their own without ever trying to explain or justify their actions to the Losties.

What would you do in this situation? It was only a few months ago that Tom and company came across the raft, kidnapped Walt, shot Sawyer, then left Sawyer, Jin, and Michael for dead in the middle of the ocean. Sawyer was then kidnapped again, held prisoner and treated worse than the prisoners at Abu Grahb. Now, he comes across Tom again, who was on a mission to kidnap more preganant women--one of whom may be the woman Sawyer loves. Sawyer overhears Tom arguing that they should kill Bernard, Jin, and Sayeed. So Tom suddenly develops a conscious and becomes apologetic when Sawyer has a gun pointed to his head. Uh, bull-****!!!

Yes, Tom absolutely needed to die. I can only hope I would have had the same "killer instincts" if put in a similar situation.

(And I'm a woman if anyone's keeping count.)

I had a nice long post about this but stupid busy server lost it somewhere...dang

He is going through some changes and Kate has been well kind of a let down to him since it is very obvious she is into Jack and jealous of Juliet. I would probably be mean to her as well.

I don't think you can say this as a fact at least not outside the shipper threads :biggrin: I saw something totally different...yes Kate was a little jealous but I don't think that makes it clear that she wants to be with Jack.

Obviously Sawyer has some issues to work out but I think he's acting like the person they need in this situation. This is war and just because it's a small one with very few people doesn't mean it's any less deadly.

I had some other points that I forget now...:undecide:

Well said, Navarian. Sawyer shot Tom because of all of the things the Others have done to them. The Losties are basically sick and tired of being pushed around- you can see it with Jack confronting Ben and Locke, Hurley running over and killing, and Sawyer dealing with killing the original Sawyer. When Sawyer saw Tom, the first Other he ever saw, who had worn a beard and taken Walt, and had made their lives miserable, Sawyer felt he had no choice but to shoot Tom. The Others have all lied before- Tom was lying about giving up- as soon as he could, Tom would have tried to escape or hurt someone else.

You can get to a point that you can't be pushed around anymore, and the finale conveyed that about the Losties, especially Sawyer and Jack...


The other thing that you guys are forgetting to mention is the reason why he went back. It was because he did not want Kate to go back. He was risking his life for her. He knew after talking to her that she would go back whether he wanted her to or not. He felt that by being a dick to her and going back himself he could keep her out of harms way. He did the same for Hurley by telling him he was to fat to go. He may be a dick about it but his intentions are good. After everything that has been done to his friends especially Kate and him when they were captured he was pissed and had had enough so Tom got killed.

Freaked me out because he wasn't using any nicknames.. Kate.. Hugo... Sawyer's gone all serious and dark...

:frown: I really started to enjoy and respect Sawyer until this episode. I do hope that he's just working through some issues, and that's why he's pushing Kate away.

Freaked me out because he wasn't using any nicknames.. Kate.. Hugo... Sawyer's gone all serious and dark...
Seems Sawyer is distancing himself from the conman persona. He was flippant with nicknames before. I think he realized how much Cooper/Sawyer had hurt him when he was driven to kill the guy, and maybe he is thinking now about not hurting anyone in the same way. Cooper was pretty malicious with his snide remarks to Sawyer in that room - tearing up Sawyer's letter, and our Sawyer may recognize that his devil-may-care attitude, and nicknames, were following suit. By now, Sawyer wants to be nothing like his namesake. He's all about protecting now: Kate, Walt - killing Tom because he couldn't save Walt last season. It's an interesting transformation.

Sawyer was "nasty" to Kate because it was the only way to keep her away from trying to go back by herself, even Jack could see that.

I thought Sawyer (not to mention Sayid) was a bad ***. Went back to save his friends (whether he calls them that or not), and then got some revenge on Tom. That guy might have gotten all chirpy and cuddly towards the end, but Sawyer was kind enough to remind us that this was the guy who started it all... back when the others were still a mystery and frightening.

I agree with this!

Second Season, Hunting Party - after Tom had taken Walt off the raft and then captured Kate and held a gun to her head - Sawyer told him - ""We ain't finished, Zeke".

He had been gunning for Tom since he got back to the beach. That was NO surprise.

The surprise was Juliet's face!! What?/ You didn't flat out shoot Pickett? You didn't hold a gun to Kate's head?? Sawyer told Kate, "...she would have killed you. No problem."

Sawyer was "nasty" to Kate because it was the only way to keep her away from trying to go back by herself, even Jack could see that.
Bingo!! Same thing with Hurley. He was trying to protect both of them from getting hurt. And - wasn't it interesting that Hurley kept Sawyer from getting hurt!!!

Sawyer: "What are you doing?"
Hurley: "Saving you."

Freaked me out because he wasn't using any nicknames.. Kate.. Hugo... Sawyer's gone all serious and dark...

ACTUALLY...

The very FIRST nickname Sawyer used since his "nickname bann" was started was said last night...


"Hero" for Hurley.

"Stay in the van, Hero". ;)

He's so closed in on himself right now and that's to be expected since he hasn't had a moment to process what happened in the ship with Cooper and how all that could be possible and how it came to be. For once, Kate was noticing and asking the right questions. I just hope that she will start looking beneath the surface again and realize something terribly wrong happened and find a way to draw it out of Sawyer before the poison of it destroys him.

Yes! I was so glad that Kate was finally clueing in on him. It seems that they're always playing this game, he wants to talk and she avoids him, she wants to talk and he closes up and pushes her away. She's the only one who can save him from turning down the wrong path right now. He can still be redeemed, because deep down he's a good guy, he's just got a lot of **** to deal with and doesn't do it in the most intelligent way.
He's just completed what most of his life has been about, that would shock anyone! the real sawyer is dead, his quest for revenge is dead. He must feel very lost and upset with himself i think.

What's everyone's take on Sawyer in this ep? Where do you think his character is going?

I sort of got this chill when Sawyer killed Mr. Friendly... seemed a bit much... this is the man that didn't want to kill Ben a few eps before. Has Sawyer gotten a taste of vengeance & been more corrupted than he was before...

He was real nasty to Kate... but that's typical of Sawyer when he's dealing with some inner trauma... but we saw him big time reverting... being nasty, suicide missions... so where's his character going?

Pretty much the first season I hated Sawyer -- thought he was a weasely rat more than anything else. But the last two seasons I really like him alot. In fact he's among my top three favorites now (but that changes almost every episode.)

To answer the question though -- I love how he has evolved! He's had his revenge on the real Sawyer. I would think that he would be hollow and empty without a purpose in life, so he has gone to the dark side -- more Vader than Solo now -- and is vengeance personified. Very tragic and very engrossing to watch IMO.

But a murder is never justified to me!;) unless it's self defense and it clearly wasn't in that case.
But i'm not at all worried...i love when Sawyer act like a jerk and hates himself! lol :biggrin:

I totally agree with this. :)

Sawyer is a man who has fulfilled his life's purpose. Think on the fact that he carried that letter around with him for decades. Think even of the fact that he took the name Sawyer. No matter what else he did in life, he had one very specific purpose -- and a dark purpose at that -- kill the real Sawyer.

Now he's done that. He's a man adrift, a man without direction, a man who has had a purpose in life for all those years, and now no longer does. If he had issues to work out before, they were nothing compared to what he has to face now. In a sense, we can see him as a guy who, for most of his life, has known who Sawyer is. Now Sawyer is dead, and he has to figure out who James Ford is. And I'll be that, with a little introspection, he probably doesn't much like what he sees.Well thought out!! I agree that he's done what he always wanted to do (albeit, pushed into it by Locke) which was to kill the man that ruined his life.

I noticed how Sawyer had changed but I really wouldn't say that he's going to the 'dark side'. Even though he has issues with showing people how he really feels about them, he still shows it in off ways, like how he dealt with Hurley and Kate, shunning them to keep them safe.

He lost a part of himself, the identity that he had had for a long time and is dealing with that, on top of fearing for his friends' lives. He could have just went along with Jack to the radio tower but felt compelled to go to the beach and help save Jin, Bernard and Sayid.

I also agree that he probably doesn't like what he sees in himself and is trying to change that by his actions at the beach.

As far as Tom goes, that was more unfinished business. Sawyer had vowed to kill Tom if he ever saw him again. I really don't hold anything against Sawyer for his actions, especially since Jack could see exactly what he was doing (regarding how he brushed off Kate about going back to the beach).

I'm just hoping that Kate and Hurley can help bring him back from the brink.

Kill Bill I think is a better reference than Darth Vader for the reasons posted above. I like that one actually - makes me think a little differently. I was upset that Sawyer killed Tom like that but yes, we do forget that Tom hasn't been a good guy and wasn't a good guy. Also in that same scened it was Tom that was saying we should have shot them...meaning Bernard, Jin and Sayid.

Yes, I agree. As other posters have said, Sawyer has to pay a psychic price for killing Cooper and I agree he's regressed and is going to a dark place. And it was hard to see him kill Tom. I think anyone who kills pays a price. But from a purely practical point of view I can't believe that if he'd spared Tom, Tom wouldn't have taken the first opportunity to stab them all in the back. Jack tries to be fair and ends up getting tricked by the others -- like when Ben cons him into handing over the walkie talkie and then orders (so we think) Sayid's, Jin's and Bernard's executions. Giving an other a second chance is usually not a good idea (Juliet may be an exception, I'm not sure yet). Jack may be more ethical but in this case Sawyer is more efficient.

Yes! I was so glad that Kate was finally clueing in on him. It seems that they're always playing this game, he wants to talk and she avoids him, she wants to talk and he closes up and pushes her away. She's the only one who can save him from turning down the wrong path right now. He can still be redeemed, because deep down he's a good guy, he's just got a lot of **** to deal with and doesn't do it in the most intelligent way.
He's just completed what most of his life has been about, that would shock anyone! the real sawyer is dead, his quest for revenge is dead. He must feel very lost and upset with himself i think.

It disappoints me a bit that Sawyer does not turn to Kate and tell her the truth about what he's going through right now. That's what true love is--you bear your burdens together. On the other hand, Kate has shown no sign that she loves Sawyer; she's been treating him as no more than a "friend with benefits." So I guess Sawyer felt that the bond wasn't there. And he's always been a very closed-in guy anyway.

What's everyone's take on Sawyer in this ep? Where do you think his character is going?

I sort of got this chill when Sawyer killed Mr. Friendly... seemed a bit much... this is the man that didn't want to kill Ben a few eps before. Has Sawyer gotten a taste of vengeance & been more corrupted than he was before...

He was real nasty to Kate... but that's typical of Sawyer when he's dealing with some inner trauma... but we saw him big time reverting... being nasty, suicide missions... so where's his character going?

OMG! I totally turned to MrMOC during the finale and said, "Anakin has just turned to the dark side." Great minds at the Fuselage, I tell ya! :biggrin:

OMG! I totally turned to MrMOC during the finale and said, "Anakin has just turned to the dark side." Great minds at the Fuselage, I tell ya! :biggrin:

lol... and we know TPTB are "Star Wars" fans... lets just hope this is just a digression in character & Sawyer isn't going to go completely "bad" on us...

you know i just remembered something sawyer said to 'mr friendly' back in season 2 - the epi where we confronted the others for the first time in the middle of the night on the island - sawyer said to him 'this aint over' - or something almost exactly like that and tom just laughs at him. Pay Back Time!

Yes, many of us were happy to see that come full-circle...


you know i just remembered something sawyer said to 'mr friendly' back in season 2 - the epi where we confronted the others for the first time in the middle of the night on the island - sawyer said to him 'this aint over' - or something almost exactly like that and tom just laughs at him. Pay Back Time!

I definitely think we're going to see Sawyer darker than ever before next season... I just hope it doesn't land him in a coffin flashforwarding all over the place...

That coffin in the flash foward was too small to Sawyers. Sawyer will be ok he will bounce back he has before he will do it again. He is used to living life in crisis so the ups and downs are normal for him. He did say back in Season 2 " You and me ain't done Zeke"

I don't think Sawyer has necessarily turned dark. Perhaps the reverse, actually. No doubt, the situation with Cooper has him very messed up. He's withdrawn and sullen, and he seems very down on himself. He's become very serious, but I still think he's much more evolved than he was when we first met him. He still cares about these people who've become his friends. He was obviously worried about the men back on the beach when they heard only two explosions. When he announced that he was going back to the beach, he made it clear to Jack that it had nothing to do with trying to flout his authority, but Jack didn't need his help... the implication being that maybe the guys back on the beach did.

He's pushing Kate away because he's too raw inside and he can't cope with her trying to open him up. And he certainly didn't want her going anywhere near the beach and whatever dangers might be there. Nor did he want Hurley in danger. He wasn't happy about Juliet lying abut the guns, but he did understand and respect her reasons for wanting to go back to help.

As for killing Tom, I think that would have gone down exactly the same way even if the Cooper incident had never happened. Tom's fate was sealed back on the raft when he took Walt and Sawyer couldn't prevent it. He got shot, the raft got blown up, and a lot of grief and tragedy followed. The next time Sawyer saw Tom, he was holding a gun to Kate's head. Then, he saw him again on Alcatraz.... where Sawyer got an even better look at these kidnapping, torturing murders. He and Kate barely escaped with their lives. The Others are the enemy - for Sawyer, that's very black and white, and with good reason. Tom wasn't on that beach dropping by for tea with the neighbours. He was there to take the women and kill anybody who got in his way. No way Sawyer was going to let him live to try that again somewhere down the road.

I don't care how bada** this may make him look and the truth is I prefer him with a darker twist rather than the happyclappy nauseating Jimmy of early season 3, I can't bring myself to feel sorry for him. He's a coward.





Coward? Yeah, right. Watch the only people you have left in your life die at the hands of the others, and think about what YOU would do. NOT killing Tom would make him a coward.

Reading this post I asked myself: Is Tom really dead? Sawyer shot him in the chest - nearly the same spot at which Locke was shot by Ben. So, he just injured him for the shot he got in his own shoulder on the raft.
Another question: Will Sawyer be "judged" by the black smoke for killing without regretting? (remember Mr.Eko)

(Tom might be dead when M.C.Gainey demands too high wages to continue on his role)

Reading this post I asked myself: Is Tom really dead? Sawyer shot him in the chest - nearly the same spot at which Locke was shot by Ben. So, he just injured him for the shot he got in his own shoulder on the raft.
Another question: Will Sawyer be "judged" by the black smoke for killing without regretting? (remember Mr.Eko)

(Tom might be dead when M.C.Gainey demands too high wages to continue on his role)

Tom's dead. Locke was shot in the kidney by Ben..... ooops. Waitaminute... he has no kidney there! Cooper took it from him. Thanks Dad! Tom, unless he and Mikhail are cut from the same cloth, is dead. And really it does make sense for the character to die at the hands of Sawyer, so to have him alive would be sort of cheating. Like JJ (I think it was JJ) said about Charlie's death, at some point it HAD to happen. To do anything else would have been a cheat.
100%
Since the producers are such Star Wars fans, I guess I'll take a shot at this from the Star Wars fan perspective.

Sawyer wasn't a great person when he started. Tragic as though his early life was, at some point he had the choice to choose another path. He didn't. I'm not damning him for it, just an observation. He was what is considered a Grey Jedi. He's definitely not Light, but he's also not Dark. He was driven by the wrong reasons, revenge, and anger. But he did not totally lose his compassion. Kate brought that out in him. Like Darth Vader at the end of his life on the second Death Star, Luke helped his father redeem himself. Kate helped Sawyer, despite killing Cooper and now Tom, he went back to help the shooters, and finally killed Tom to help his friends. Don't get me wrong, Tom WAS personal. But let's not forget what Sawyer told Jack in the first season, (as close as I can remember) ' I'm in the jungle', meaning, this isn't the civilized world we came from. Survival can mean something as severe as shooting someone nicknamed Mr. Friendly in the chest.

As far as, is he going Dark or not. Well, it depends on how you view the Force. Later on in the Expanded Universe novels (stories that happen after Return of the Jedi for those who may not be fans) the definition of the Dark side vs. the Light side has come into serious question. Is it of the Dark side to deceive, and kill? Perhaps not if the motive that created the action is the safety of the threatened (Losties). There has been a serious greying out of the Dark and Light sides of the Force. Jedi Masters using Force Lightning, something that was considered a Dark Side power. And many Jedi Masters, even Luke Skywalker (in the Expanded Universe), Jaina Solo, Kyp Durron, and others have gone to the dark side for a time. Usually this was caused by a tragic event that made the Jedi forget their lessons. For Jaina it was the death of her brother that drove her to the edge of being a dark jedi. Luckily, she had someone who brought her back, leading to her redemption. Luke was redeemed as well. Even Luke's wife, Mara Jade was an agent of Darth Vader until she was redeemed and became a Jedi Master.
The point I'm looking at here is that, Sawyer isn't walking a Dark path at this time. When he stole the guns and had Charlie try to abduct Sun, that was walking the Dark path.
In my opinion, Sawyer has had his revenge. Well, reckoning is more like it. To him, finally, the scales are balanced. A lifelong pursuit came to a close, and it happened the only way it could have happened. Tragic for Cooper, but we were reminded during that episode that Cooper was a horrible person. So our sympathy for him was stripped away, if it was ever there in the first place..
Same thing with Tom. We were reminded by his telling Pryce that they should have shot the Losties and not wasted time. The first thing he asked Ben when he told him that they had captured Sayid, Jin and 'The Dentist", was if he wanted him to kill them. So again, our sympathy for Tom is stripped away as we're reminded, he's not a nice guy, though he may have been an entertaining character.
Sawyer is now walking the path of the redeemed, though he is not walking in the Light side. He remains a Grey Jedi.

Of course next season watch him wipe out 20 Others and my whole theory is wiped out......

Still, following the Star Wars line may not be a bad idea.....

Regardless of whether Tom deserved it, and I'm keep my own council on that, it's not really important to the conversation, James took a turn in the Brig into a very dark place.

For 30 years he has held on to this little spark of hope that "killing the bad man" would "magic away his pain" but it didn't.
Cooper mocked him, showed James exactly how much alike they had become, and in a rage, James kills him. And then? Nothing... nothing inside him changes. He's sick. He still hates himself, there was no absolution. His parents are still gone. The man he killed was not the quivering child under the bed, he wasn't afraid. Cooper thought he was in Hell, and I can guarantee the Island is going to torture James with that imagery. Like Yemi, Cooper will keep coming back to James.
Before, he was a self-loathing, self-destructive con-man who thought he had an answer, and no matter how often Hurley and Kate and others reached out to him, he always clung back to that "Must kill Sawyer" as his hope for redemption, because every time he did anything else, Jack would pull the rug out from under him, shame him, make him feel worthless, re-ignite the rivalry in which James always "knew" he could never win.
Now Cooper is dead, and so is part of James. Something in his eyes was dead when he killed Tom. He was justified. He was also a cold-blooded, remorseless killer.
The redemption of many characters was "I am going to kill 'Henry Gale'... crap I can't kill anymore." James has crossed the line Tom drew on the island, both physically and metaphorically. His entire life has been spent becoming those he hated... and he's doing it again.

Tom's karma came due, but I'm afraid in the end, James' has a bigger tab.

Everyone has put forth excellent points, just wanted to put my 2 cents in that I don't think he's going to any permanent dark side. I think he has to continue the path towards peace and it's not going to happen anytime soon, but like everyone said, he was defending his friends. "I didn't believe him." Of course not! The Others are manipulative lyers, Tom would've killed Saywer first chance he got, look what he wanted to do the the three shooters. Then again I'm totally biased...he's my favorite character on the show. One of my favorite characters of all time, matter of fact.

The Frog...that bothered me a bit. When he conned everyone, expecially Kate, to get the guns. But I'm with him to the end.

It disappoints me a bit that Sawyer does not turn to Kate and tell her the truth about what he's going through right now. That's what true love is--you bear your burdens together. On the other hand, Kate has shown no sign that she loves Sawyer; she's been treating him as no more than a "friend with benefits." So I guess Sawyer felt that the bond wasn't there. And he's always been a very closed-in guy anyway.

I disagree completely and if you read Gregg's take on it here... you'll see he said the same thing I did a while ago... (not that anyone will remember that but...) http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=80722 In case you don't read it he says that Kate and Sawyer are dealing with each other the only way they know how among other things. I think it's easy for people who are not emotionally scarred to talk about true love and what it means but for people who have never developed the tools it's not that easy. Relationships are never really easy in practice - as anyone who is in one knows there is a lot of work involved, there is also sacrifice and heartbreak at times. Sawyer is dealing with his own issues the only way he knows how...alone and Kate finally wants to talk about them but James isn't ready yet. I see a lot of hope for their future if James can come back from the dark place. It will never be perfect though because of who these people are.

very nice post mulder and I love the nick btw...I loved the X-files.

I agree he's letting the dark side take over briefly but I do believe he'll come out of it, possibly with Sayid or Hurley's help - maybe both. I don't think that anyone's going to let him go down that dark path.

To me Sawyer's actions in 'THe Brig' were actually out of character. I like Sawyer but this is a man who hasn't hesitated to kill any of the Other's at any point. Shooting Tom was what I kind of expected from him.

To me Sawyer's actions in 'THe Brig' were actually out of character. I like Sawyer but this is a man who hasn't hesitated to kill any of the Other's at any point. Shooting Tom was what I kind of expected from him.

not true, when they went to rescue Karl - it was Kate that wanted to shoot the guard in the leg and Sawyer didn't want to shoot him at all...most likely because he didn't have anything personal against him, didn't know the guy at all.

To me Sawyer's actions in 'THe Brig' were actually out of character. I like Sawyer but this is a man who hasn't hesitated to kill any of the Other's at any point. Shooting Tom was what I kind of expected from him.

Because up until now James has killed so many Others... err.. wait.. no he hasn't.

I also expected Sawyer to kill Tom, he told him they weren't done and he meant it.
I like Sawyer in this mode it's when he's at his best, reminded me of season 1 Sawyer.
He's a lean mean Other reduceing killing machine.

Agreed!

I also agree. Tom had it coming.

Moreover, I cheered that we actually got some measure of closure to an event--the assault on the raft--that, incredibly, happened back in season one! Not to mention the encounter in the woods in season two.

R.I.P. "Zeke"

gothfae said- Before, he was a self-loathing, self-destructive con-man who thought he had an answer, and no matter how often Hurley and Kate and others reached out to him, he always clung back to that "Must kill Sawyer" as his hope for redemption, because every time he did anything else, Jack would pull the rug out from under him, shame him, make him feel worthless, re-ignite the rivalry in which James always "knew" he could never win.


Sorry but let's not blame Jack for Sawyer's problems. Sawyer may have interpreted things this way because he's always had such low self-esteem. Jack was always simply reacting to Sawyer's outward behavior/actions as any competitive male would, but he does care for Sawyer I think. I agree Sawyer has crossed the line and become a killer (by the way this makes the character sooo interesting!) but I'm not sure if he will be able to redeem himself or not.
Linerk- I completely disagree with you on all your points in this thread about Sawyer and Kate, but maybe you are right, although I wouldn't hold my breath.

Linerk- I completely disagree with you on all your points in this thread about Sawyer and Kate, but maybe you are right, although I wouldn't hold my breath.

I'm sorry I forget what I've posted where but if it has to do with their feelings for each other and lack of communication etc....did you read what Gregg Nations had to say about it?? Just curious because it pretty much confirms what I said. That doesn't mean that it's true but I think it's a good bet. :biggrin:

First, didn't have time to go through all the posts so excuse me if this was brought out, but Tom wasn't so "Mr. Freindly" when he was doing some major whining to Ryan that they should have capped Sayid, Bernard and Jin. His true personality came thorugh loud and clear. So we were toyed with for a while thinking Tom was really a good natured guy after all.

We are also being expertly worked by the writers who know how to make a hard turn when least expected. Sawyer, instead of being liberated by fulfilling his lifetime quest has had the safety removed on being bad and is heading quickly down the steep slope of havng no second thoughts about anything. Now, how he will be redeemed will be interesting and if we get a Sawyer flash forward in season 4 we will see how the dark side turns out.

Remember, Jack was acting differently (see "was he an Other" threads), Locke was heading for a dark place- this is just more interesting and unexpected character twists by a group of writers who are really good at it. Its what keeps all glued to this show. Why do we have to wait until February!

We are also being expertly worked by the writers who know how to make a hard turn when least expected. Sawyer, instead of being liberated by fulfilling his lifetime quest has had the safety removed on being bad and is heading quickly down the steep slope of havng no second thoughts about anything. Now, how he will be redeemed will be interesting and if we get a Sawyer flash forward in season 4 we will see how the dark side turns out.

I completely disagree with this POV. As I said above, I believe Sawyer would have done exactly the same thing even if the Cooper incident had never happened. Killing Tom was about them taking Walt, first and foremost, just as he said. Add to that blowing up the raft, threatening Kate's life, imprisonment and torture on Alcatraz, and Sawyer had plenty of reasons for believing that Tom would forever be a danger to them.

If you think shooting Tom was just plain wrong, no matter who did it, then that's one thing. If you think it's wrong just because it was Sawyer pulling the trigger, why? What else has he done to make people think he's going "bad"? Nothing, not a single thing. He's been a team player, he cared about the men on the beach enough to go back and try to help... and not just because Kate suggested it. Take a look at his face when they're all looking back toward the camp after the two explosions. He looks very worried and grieved, thinking things have gone wrong for the guys on the beach.

It's true that he's tormented by the Cooper killing and everything that has dredged up about his past. He's distanced himself from people, even from Kate. Even getting water from the creek, he went looking for solitude. He has a much quieter and more serious manner, and the only nickname we've seen him use is when he told Hurley, "Stay in the bus, hero." Where does any of that imply that he's gone "bad" or that he's suddenly becoming a stone-cold killer?

I think perhaps some people are missing the obvious. The book "Through the Looking Glass", and this episode named for it, are full of mirror images. Tom had a friendly manner but was indisputably a BAD man. He was killed by a guy with a dour and off-putting manner who is a GOOD man, trying to right a wrong and protect people from being hurt by this bad guy in the future. I do think that's how we were intended to view it.

You know the others morality seems to be eye for an eye according to Alex... if the losties are acting the same way....i don't get what makes them so different!
I think in this show they all have reasons to kill people...the others and the losties!
So i don't get what makes the others so evil and not the losties?
Charlie said they started!? Okay so if we considered things like that...kate started to kill her father! He wasn't nice...Okay...but he probably wasn't nice because of this backstory too... Ben is not always nice...but now we know why...his father told all his life he has killed his mother! All these is just a chain reaction...a chain reaction that can only be stopped by someone who forgives! Exactly what sayid's victim has done in his flashback episode. Revenge has never been a solution...look at sawyer since he get his revenge...he doesn't feel relieved and great...he feels more guilty and thinks is a bad person...he's self destructive once again... hate and revenge are not solutions and never will be!
At least that's what i think!



I agree on that... but i think he's on a destructive way since he killed Cooper...and i don't think that killing Tom will make him feel better...on the contrary...

Finally, someone is seeing the light! The Losties aren't perfect either. They've killed more Others than vice versa, especially now.

I completely disagree with this POV. As I said above, I believe Sawyer would have done exactly the same thing even if the Cooper incident had never happened. Killing Tom was about them taking Walt, first and foremost, just as he said. Add to that blowing up the raft, threatening Kate's life, imprisonment and torture on Alcatraz, and Sawyer had plenty of reasons for believing that Tom would forever be a danger to them..

I don't disagree with the above and the other good points you made in your post. What I am saying is that his demeanor has noticably changed, he is tormented and struggling internally but I think the writers are making us wonder what did Sawyer free himself from and is it sending him somewhere good. Ever since the epi where Hurley told him he was the leader Sawyer was making what appeared to be an uncomfortable turn to being a productive member of our island society. Finally taking his revenge on Cooper has taken him (via the writers) in a completely different and unexpected direction. My point is that these writers are really, really good at that. Rooting for Sawyer to be one of the good guys is now in doubt and that is exactly what they wanted. How they will twist and turn this part is to entertain us. Sawyer had no doubts or second thoughts about capping Tom, no internal struggles whatsoever. He decided that Walt was a good enough reason-very simple. That was not where Sawyer was before Cooper. There are more twists and turns in store for Saywer if he is going to be around for another 48 episodes, (I think he will be there for most of them, not convinced yet for all) so to keep us interested the writers will keep us guessing.

I don't disagree with the above and the other good points you made in your post. What I am saying is that his demeanor has noticably changed, he is tormented and struggling internally but I think the writers are making us wonder what did Sawyer free himself from and is it sending him somewhere good. Ever since the epi where Hurley told him he was the leader Sawyer was making what appeared to be an uncomfortable turn to being a productive member of our island society. Finally taking his revenge on Cooper has taken him (via the writers) in a completely different and unexpected direction. My point is that these writers are really, really good at that. Rooting for Sawyer to be one of the good guys is now in doubt and that is exactly what they wanted. How they will twist and turn this part is to entertain us. Sawyer had no doubts or second thoughts about capping Tom, no internal struggles whatsoever. He decided that Walt was a good enough reason-very simple. That was not where Sawyer was before Cooper. There are more twists and turns in store for Saywer if he is going to be around for another 48 episodes, (I think he will be there for most of them, not convinced yet for all) so to keep us interested the writers will keep us guessing.

Perhaps you're right about the writers' intent, but I'm not convinced. Sawyer's manner has changed since Cooper... he's withdrawn and has distanced himself from Kate, he's more solitary perhaps and there's no joy in him anywhere. However, that's just his manner, not his morality. When he came back from the Black Rock, he immediately sought out Sayid with the information about Locke and the tape, he and Sayid were together on the same page during the briefing of the rest of the camp and the confrontation with Jack. He hasn't quarreled with Jack's decisions in any way since Jack brought them up to speed. On the contrary, before going back to the beach he took the trouble to explain to Jack that it was in no way to flout Jack's leadership or cause him problems, but Jack simply didn't need him... the implication being that maybe the guys on the beach could use some help. If he had turned all cold and hard as some people are saying, why would he abandon the trek to the tower to get rescued and risk himself trying to go back to help Sayid, Jin and Bernard? (He certainly wouldn't have in S1.)

When he arrived on the island, he was a socially-disconnected exploitative and self-centered guy, but he wasn't a killer by nature. Hibbs said as much and we saw how he was with the Duckett killing, he couldn't even do it the first time he tried. It was only with some encouragement from Jack's Dad and a bunch of alcohol that he worked up the nerve to do it. Even then, he was shaking like a leaf... it didn't come easy.

Since he arrived on the island, he's been shot twice by the Others, paralyzed with a dart, taken prisoner, locked in a bear cage and made to eat animal food, been beaten and tortured and barely escaped with his life. He also saw Kate held at gunpoint by them three times, and she barely escaped alive. He saw what they were doing to Karl, and he's one of their own people. He heard from the Tailies how they'd been reduced from twenty-three to five by virtue of the Others' attacks on their camp. And his very first contact with the Others was probably the worst of all - watching them come to take Walt off the raft and not being able to stop them; being shot and trying to survive in the ocean while they blew up the raft, all the while hearing Walt scream in fear for his father; then seeing what losing Walt did to Michael right from the start, and how that led to two more deaths and a once-decent man selling out his friends for any chance to get his son back.

I believe that THOSE are the experiences that have hardened his heart toward the Others, and toward Zeke in particular. No doubt, killing Cooper has dredged up a lot of personal anguish for him, but I don't see how it has compromised his loyalty to his friends or his determination to help the Losties as a group. On the contrary, we've seen that to be steadfast in spite of his turbulent emotional state. It's true that he killed Zeke without flinching, but I think he was certain in his own mind that that was the "right" thing to do. Tom had had many chances, but there he was on THEIR beach for the purpose of abducting THEIR women and killing anybody that got in the way. The Others' have more than demonstrated that THEY aren't working within any kind of Geneva Convention rules. Abducting Claire? Hanging Charlie? Killing Steve? Torturing Karl? Look at Mikhail, who just killed two of his own people on Ben's orders. These people aren't playing by civilized rules of any kind, and if the Losties try to show mercy, it's liable to bite them in the butt all too soon. Sawyer has learned that, and I believe Sayid gets it too. What we've seen, IMO, is the transformation of Sawyer into a soldier fighting to defend himself and the people he cares about. I'd call that a strength in the circumstances they're in, not a weakness. JMO, of course.

No doubt, the Cooper killing will continue to work on his emotions. He'll have to deal with that and I wouldn't be surprised if he tries to keep some emotional distance between himself and his friends. I've also no doubt, however, that he still sees them as his friends and that he'll do everything he can to protect them.

I have said it before but Sawyer rules and is one person you can count on to help you out if you are in danger. I would hide my toothpaste from him as he would take that to trade back to me in a heart beat but I know in a fight he would have my back. :biglaugh: Rewt, that's so funny about the toothpaste yet so true. All in all he's been good to have on your side in a fight.

Before, he was a self-loathing, self-destructive con-man who thought he had an answer, and no matter how often Hurley and Kate and others reached out to him, he always clung back to that "Must kill Sawyer" as his hope for redemption, because every time he did anything else, Jack would pull the rug out from under him, shame him, make him feel worthless, re-ignite the rivalry in which James always "knew" he could never win.

Sorry, I missed the episodes where Jack pulled the rug out from under him and shamed him. You must be thinking of the poker game? So he got a pile of fruit and the medicines that the camp needed? Maybe you don't remember how Sawyer pulled the rug out from under the camp by conning and stealing all the guns. Or when Jack basically traded his own freedom and possibly his life to let Sawyer and Kate go free. Or that Jack nursed him back to health when he got back to camp with the infected bullet wound.

Back to the thread topic, I don't think that Sawyer's killing Tom after he was subdued was justified, but I fully see where Sawyer's motivation came from. It wasn't necessary stragetically to kill Tom, and he might have proven a valuable hostage to hold over Ben. And as someone who had become rather fond of Tom's more bumbling comical side, I was sad to see him go. But Sawyer had never seen that (except Tom's exceptional line "it only took the bears two hours".) Tom's kidnapping of Walt from the raft set in motion all the major events of Season 2, that ended in Ana Lucia and Libby's murders, the LTDA expedition to free Walt, and their brutal experience on Alcatraz at the hands of Tom and the Others. So yeah, I can see why Sawyer took his revenge.

Sorry, I missed the episodes where Jack pulled the rug out from under him and shamed him. .

Hurley set James up as the new leader, Jack re-appears and instantly James is a nobody again. Jack didn't "do it", but James felt it. That why "knowing" he can't compete, is in quotes. James would rather return to self-loathing and scowl at Jack from the sidelines like he's to blame because he doesn't believe he has any self-worth, than continue to step up as someone the Losties can depend on.

It's all James' point of view.

Without Jack, James sees a chance with Kate, he sees himself having a leadership role with the Losties, as someone that can be important.

With Jack around he's too busy beating himself up. And Jack can say that he was snapping at Kate because he cares, but part of that is because Jack can't understand James. It's true to a point, but then the self-loathing, self-destructiveness, and "I can't compete with Jack for Kate's love" plays as much a part of it.

So in answer to your question? Yes, in James' mind, Jack is the one pulling the rug out from under him. Someone he has no chance of 'competing against'. It's the whole basis of their rivalry.

"Jack does everything good better than me... all I can do better than Jack is bad."

Hurley set James up as the new leader, Jack re-appears and instantly James is a nobody again. Jack didn't "do it", but James felt it. That why "knowing" he can't compete, is in quotes. James would rather return to self-loathing and scowl at Jack from the sidelines like he's to blame because he doesn't believe he has any self-worth, than continue to step up as someone the Losties can depend on.

It's all James' point of view.

Without Jack, James sees a chance with Kate, he sees himself having a leadership role with the Losties, as someone that can be important.

With Jack around he's too busy beating himself up. And Jack can say that he was snapping at Kate because he cares, but part of that is because Jack can't understand James. It's true to a point, but then the self-loathing, self-destructiveness, and "I can't compete with Jack for Kate's love" plays as much a part of it.

So in answer to your question? Yes, in James' mind, Jack is the one pulling the rug out from under him. Someone he has no chance of 'competing against'. It's the whole basis of their rivalry.

"Jack does everything good better than me... all I can do better than Jack is bad."
With all due respect, gothfae, I think that POV may be your own, but I don't see any evidence that it's Sawyer's point of view. Aside from a healthy suspicion of Juliet and why Jack would bring her back to camp, Sawyer was otherwise back on good terms with Jack. He even intiated the hug when Jack returned. And who told Jack he was "the closest thing I got to a friend?"
It's true that Sawyer has always seemed to look at Jack as a rival in many ways, but Jack never went out of his way to "crush" Sawyer -- except in poker. Then Sawyer evened it out in ping pong, so there you go.
Putting the blame on Jack for Sawyer's self-loathing just doesn't make sense, because first of all people are responsible for their own attitudes, and Sawyer was full of self-loathing all his life, long before the island.
Hurley was really the one pushing Sawyer to fill the leadership void. Sawyer never seemed comfortable with the role and did nothing to step up to it, aside from being lead CSI on the Pikki mystery deaths. Otherwise he pretty much drank beer.

With all due respect, I'm not projecting any more than anyone else in this thread unless someone here is actually one of the writers in disguise. Nothing in here is anything more than personal opinion. And having watched all three seasons in the week leading up to the finale, all I can say is most of the normal script nods towards "Sawyer is doing something good here", seemed to be lacking since his experience on the Brig.
He's now managed to kill 3 people in cold blood, that at the moment he killed them were helpless, or at the bare minimum not an immediate threat.
Charlie Pace filled Ethan with bullets in the heat of passion and then suffered for it. Sawyer dispassionately executed a man and drank a beer.

gothfae, I'm no longer sure where your loyalties lie...also I'd like to say something about this beer drinking. I realize there are people who won't understand this but a lot of us reach for alchohol when in a tough situation...it's very common actually. Even doctors will sometimes give you a shot of something to calm you down so I don't see how James drinking a beer means he's nonchalant about anything. I would be drinking a beer myself...probably 3 or 4 or 8...

I believe that THOSE are the experiences that have hardened his heart toward the Others, and toward Zeke in particular. No doubt, killing Cooper has dredged up a lot of personal anguish for him, but I don't see how it has compromised his loyalty to his friends or his determination to help the Losties as a group. On the contrary, we've seen that to be steadfast in spite of his turbulent emotional state. It's true that he killed Zeke without flinching, but I think he was certain in his own mind that that was the "right" thing to do. Tom had had many chances, but there he was on THEIR beach for the purpose of abducting THEIR women and killing anybody that got in the way. The Others' have more than demonstrated that THEY aren't working within any kind of Geneva Convention rules. Abducting Claire? Hanging Charlie? Killing Steve? Torturing Karl? Look at Mikhail, who just killed two of his own people on Ben's orders. These people aren't playing by civilized rules of any kind, and if the Losties try to show mercy, it's liable to bite them in the butt all too soon. Sawyer has learned that, and I believe Sayid gets it too. What we've seen, IMO, is the transformation of Sawyer into a soldier fighting to defend himself and the people he cares about. I'd call that a strength in the circumstances they're in, not a weakness. JMO, of course.

Nice post, I totally agree...are the losties supposed to sit on their *** and get kidnapped, tortured and watch their friends get hurt and killed without retaliating?? I get tired of the argument that they have killed as many if not more others... I have to think are you serious?? You're really comparing the two??

I believe exploring the dark side of Sawyer is part of the writer's plan. I think it was convenient to have him take down Tom now while he's dealing with these issues. Next season, we'll see Sawyer facing what he did.. embracing or rejecting it. If he rejects it, which he will, we'll then see him trying to forgive himself probably.
So, I can't agree with Darth Sawyer, but I do think we're going to see Sawyer in a dark place for a while.

So, I can't agree with Darth Sawyer, but I do think we're going to see Sawyer in a dark place for a while.

You remind me to mention though that both Anakin and Luke had a choice to accept the dark side or not...Anakin was driven by love to choose the dark side but Luke didn't. By choosing to save his friends he could have been recruited or driven to the dark side and he still had to kill the emperor to save his father....I think this might be a better comparison. At least that's what I hope. Although I prefer the Han/Sawyer comparison over all else... :biggrin:

I have no loyalties. My original post spoke of no loyalties. It simply spoke of what I believed was a very dark turn for James that started in The Brig, and why I don't think his execution of Tom was any kind of cathartic even to be cheered.
I think there is a lots of potential good in James, but I also think he's going to get a lot darker before he starts getting any better. But that's just a literary technique.

But with Charlie's death, he might not be redeemed. I don't mean that as "Charlie's death will affect him" but in that "his character arc may be to be unredeemable and die"

I personally won't know until it happens though. Unless lostfan108 shoots spoiler bullets into my head again.

gothfae, I just wasn't sure because you seemed to be very critical of Jack in support of James and then you were critical of James so I was just wondering where you stood. :)

gothfae, I just wasn't sure because you seemed to be very critical of Jack in support of James and then you were critical of James so I was just wondering where you stood. :)

Funny, isn't it that Jack has to come up in Sawyer's thread. And typical. :undecide: I don't see why we can't be supportive of both characters? (Btw, linerk, I don't mean you).

Funny, isn't it that Jack has to come up in Sawyer's thread. And typical. I don't see why we can't be supportive of both characters? Btw, linerk, I don't mean you specifically.

well I haven't been to the Jack threads much so not sure if Sawyer comes up there or not :biggrin: I've been in threads where we were told to quit badgering one character in support of another so I try to stay away from that - I am not supportive of Jack most of the time so I try not to say anything about him anymore :biggrin: Although I admit this last ep - on island restored some of my faith in him.

I can't agree with Jack having anything to do with Sawyer's state of mind though, I think that is all to do with his own feelings and I have to say that I think Jack has been very supportive of him of late and I don't think he bears any ill will.

gothfae, I just wasn't sure because you seemed to be very critical of Jack in support of James and then you were critical of James so I was just wondering where you stood. :)

Ah, sorry, didn't mean to pledge allegiance. No, if I have to choose an "A" team member I'm a Locke person. Unfortunately they have tied Kate/James/Jack so tightly together it's hard to talk about one without bringing up another. But to answer your question:

Jack: I find him verging on insufferable. He has to fix other people's problems to avoid dealing with his own. Cat's in the Cradle is a great song for Jack, he and Christian just make different brands of mistakes. But he's not 'bad' he just tragically flawed, obstinate, pig-headed, and suffering from hubris.

James: There is a good person inside of him, but it's still a child hiding under a bed. His coping mechanism is even more self-destructive that Jack's though. They both become the things they hate, but James has a good dose of self-loathing on top of that, he needs people to hate him to, because he is what he hates, its what he made himself.

Jack has a touch of a messiah complex, James has a death wish.
James pushes people away when they get too close, I'm not sure Jack actually knows how to let anyone really in.

They both are a long way from being on one of the Other's "good" Lists. Don't mistake my ability to both defend and attack them as not being invested in both of them :)

well I haven't been to the Jack threads much so not sure if Sawyer comes up there or not :biggrin: I've been in threads where we were told to quit badgering one character in support of another so I try to stay away from that - I am not supportive of Jack most of the time so I try not to say anything about him anymore :biggrin: Although I admit this last ep - on island restored some of my faith in him.

I can't agree with Jack having anything to do with Sawyer's state of mind though, I think that is all to do with his own feelings and I have to say that I think Jack has been very supportive of him of late and I don't think he bears any ill will.

Of course Sawyer shows up in Jack threads. ;) My point was that I see a lot of fans taking sides, which to me is silly. You'd think they were arch enemies.
I like both characters, though I was unhappy with what I think of as Sawyer's "sappy stage". I would rather see complex Sawyer, working through his issues. Obviously, I'm really excited to see where his character journey goes from here.

Nice post gothfae, I agree with your take on both characters - in fact I really strongly agree - nice post...I may not like Jack but I still see him as integral to the show and I would rather not have anything happen to him. It was nice to see a bout of on island emotion from him in the finale as well. A lot of the time it seems like he's so good at hiding his emotions - it seems like he doesn't care at all. :biggrin:

Perhaps you're right about the writers' intent, but I'm not convinced. Sawyer's manner has changed since Cooper... he's withdrawn and has distanced himself from Kate, he's more solitary perhaps and there's no joy in him anywhere. However, that's just his manner, not his morality. When he came back from the Black Rock, he immediately sought out Sayid with the information about Locke and the tape, he and Sayid were together on the same page during the briefing of the rest of the camp and the confrontation with Jack. He hasn't quarreled with Jack's decisions in any way since Jack brought them up to speed. On the contrary, before going back to the beach he took the trouble to explain to Jack that it was in no way to flout Jack's leadership or cause him problems, but Jack simply didn't need him... the implication being that maybe the guys on the beach could use some help. If he had turned all cold and hard as some people are saying, why would he abandon the trek to the tower to get rescued and risk himself trying to go back to help Sayid, Jin and Bernard? (He certainly wouldn't have in S1.)

When he arrived on the island, he was a socially-disconnected exploitative and self-centered guy, but he wasn't a killer by nature. Hibbs said as much and we saw how he was with the Duckett killing, he couldn't even do it the first time he tried. It was only with some encouragement from Jack's Dad and a bunch of alcohol that he worked up the nerve to do it. Even then, he was shaking like a leaf... it didn't come easy.

Since he arrived on the island, he's been shot twice by the Others, paralyzed with a dart, taken prisoner, locked in a bear cage and made to eat animal food, been beaten and tortured and barely escaped with his life. He also saw Kate held at gunpoint by them three times, and she barely escaped alive. He saw what they were doing to Karl, and he's one of their own people. He heard from the Tailies how they'd been reduced from twenty-three to five by virtue of the Others' attacks on their camp. And his very first contact with the Others was probably the worst of all - watching them come to take Walt off the raft and not being able to stop them; being shot and trying to survive in the ocean while they blew up the raft, all the while hearing Walt scream in fear for his father; then seeing what losing Walt did to Michael right from the start, and how that led to two more deaths and a once-decent man selling out his friends for any chance to get his son back.

I believe that THOSE are the experiences that have hardened his heart toward the Others, and toward Zeke in particular. No doubt, killing Cooper has dredged up a lot of personal anguish for him, but I don't see how it has compromised his loyalty to his friends or his determination to help the Losties as a group. On the contrary, we've seen that to be steadfast in spite of his turbulent emotional state. It's true that he killed Zeke without flinching, but I think he was certain in his own mind that that was the "right" thing to do. Tom had had many chances, but there he was on THEIR beach for the purpose of abducting THEIR women and killing anybody that got in the way. The Others' have more than demonstrated that THEY aren't working within any kind of Geneva Convention rules. Abducting Claire? Hanging Charlie? Killing Steve? Torturing Karl? Look at Mikhail, who just killed two of his own people on Ben's orders. These people aren't playing by civilized rules of any kind, and if the Losties try to show mercy, it's liable to bite them in the butt all too soon. Sawyer has learned that, and I believe Sayid gets it too. What we've seen, IMO, is the transformation of Sawyer into a soldier fighting to defend himself and the people he cares about. I'd call that a strength in the circumstances they're in, not a weakness. JMO, of course.

No doubt, the Cooper killing will continue to work on his emotions. He'll have to deal with that and I wouldn't be surprised if he tries to keep some emotional distance between himself and his friends. I've also no doubt, however, that he still sees them as his friends and that he'll do everything he can to protect them.

First... I want to say that that I am obviously a big Sawyer fan... I'm not saying this to put his character down... I am genuinely worried that my favorite character is headed for a really dark path with the possibility of becoming too dark...

I did not see Sawyer's decision of going back to the camp as an act of courage or friendship... or atleast... I did not see it that way once he shot Tom... I saw it as reminiscent of season 1... the Sawyer that basically has no reason to live & would therefore take on any mission that involved possible dire consequences...

Michael pointed this out to Sawyer in season 1 ... that the only reason he was on the raft was because of that risk...

I think Sawyer's killing of Tom is completely justified... and probably smart... however, it was very obvious that Hurley did not agree with what Sawyer did... and this show is about evolution of character... so who needs to learn here... Does Sawyer need to learn about mercy or does Hurley need to learn about acting without mercy? Add that & that cold, hard close up of Sawyer's face... and I'm thinking the killing of Tom, no matter how justified was not a "good" thing...

And they could easily come back from that w/out Sawyer going any darker... but considering that this follows the Cooper incident... that leaves me concerned...

[
Since the producers are such Star Wars fans, I guess I'll take a shot at this from the Star Wars fan perspective.


Of course next season watch him wipe out 20 Others and my whole theory is wiped out......

Still, following the Star Wars line may not be a bad idea.....[/quote]


I too have read all of the books and know the Characters you are referring too. I would compare Sawer to Kyp Duron if he was to be compared to a Jedi. I am at this point relating Sawer to the early Han Solo. Of course Han Solo was the father figure in Kyp Durron's teen and early adult years. Kyp Durron often acted on his own to achieve his agenda. Sawer does that quite a bit.

I too have read all of the books and know the Characters you are referring too. I would compare Sawer to Kyp Duron if he was to be compared to a Jedi. I am at this point relating Sawer to the early Han Solo. Of course Han Solo was the father figure in Kyp Durron's teen and early adult years. Kyp Durron often acted on his own to achieve his agenda. Sawer does that quite a bit.

I thought this comparison was probably the best one, with Kyp wanting revenge on the Empire for taking his parents and brother away and leaving him to a life in the spice mines. Then later following the dark side by destroying Caridia, thereby causing his brother to die by his own hand. His redemption by Luke and Han brought him back to being a man of faith.

Sawyer had his parents taken from him in a manner, and wanted revenge against Cooper. He gets his revenge against Cooper, with Locke starting him on the road to redemption. The road bumps he's hitting are just part of the path. Somewhere along the line, I think Sawyer will have to make a choice, whether or not to become a man of faith. And that choice will either lead to his redemption or his judgment.

Look, I know that this is a TV show, but if someone shot me (like Tom shot Sawyer on the raft) I'd put one in their head, and then kick some sand in his yap. Tom had his chance to make things right many times, and didn't. Good riddance Tom. Once an other, always an other (Juliet, I hope you're next)


I totally agree and the look on Juliettes face was like, OH! @#$%....am I next, priceless:biggrin:

I agree, Dirk. Tom had it coming, especially after everything he had done...


Originally Posted by dangerousdirk http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/images/FuselageGreen/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1572500#post1572500)
Look, I know that this is a TV show, but if someone shot me (like Tom shot Sawyer on the raft) I'd put one in their head, and then kick some sand in his yap. Tom had his chance to make things right many times, and didn't. Good riddance Tom. Once an other, always an other (Juliet, I hope you're next)

First... I want to say that that I am obviously a big Sawyer fan... I'm not saying this to put his character down... I am genuinely worried that my favorite character is headed for a really dark path with the possibility of becoming too dark...

I did not see Sawyer's decision of going back to the camp as an act of courage or friendship... or atleast... I did not see it that way once he shot Tom... I saw it as reminiscent of season 1... the Sawyer that basically has no reason to live & would therefore take on any mission that involved possible dire consequences...

Michael pointed this out to Sawyer in season 1 ... that the only reason he was on the raft was because of that risk...

I think Sawyer's killing of Tom is completely justified... and probably smart... however, it was very obvious that Hurley did not agree with what Sawyer did... and this show is about evolution of character... so who needs to learn here... Does Sawyer need to learn about mercy or does Hurley need to learn about acting without mercy? Add that & that cold, hard close up of Sawyer's face... and I'm thinking the killing of Tom, no matter how justified was not a "good" thing...

And they could easily come back from that w/out Sawyer going any darker... but considering that this follows the Cooper incident... that leaves me concerned...

I can understand your concern. I see Sawyer's "dark time" right now as the breaking down of a character in order to build him up again technique that TPTB love so much. Sawyer needed to face his demons, specifically Cooper aka Sawyer, in order for his character to be in crisis and then to grow enough to overcome.

I thought he was absolutely right to do it. Tom needed to die, and James made the call. I thought it was a great conclusion to the conflict set up in S1, when he was shot on the raft, then in THP in S2, when he warned, 'you and me ain't done, Zeke.' It came full circle, and to its natural end, for me. Tom would've tried to take them down first chance he got, anyway. I didn't believe his surrender line anymore than James did. Good for him!

You know the others morality seems to be eye for an eye according to Alex... if the losties are acting the same way....i don't get what makes them so different!
The Losties did not gas some 40 odd people in an attack. They are under attack. They are acting in self-defense. True, James had a score to settle with Tom and I am saddened and disappointed that he settled it by killing him because I agree with you that revenge is not a solution. But - under the circumstances, was it practical to think the Losties could hold a prisoner? They are at war.


I would not want to live in a world where someone like Sawyer (or any one person for that matter, but that's another topic) gets to decide who lives and dies and how people should pay for their sins.
Over the last three months, Sawyer has killed:
1. A defenseless old man in Australia, without so much as a "you the real Sawyer by the way?"
2. An Other who was stalking them through the forest (OK, this one is more or less justified, although Kate's idea about "turning the tables" on them makes no sense)
3. An evil b*astard, but a tied up, evil b*astard none the less.
4.. An defenseless enemy who had surrendered.
5. The frog. I defended him on that, btw

I would not want to live in that world either but that's part of the point. These people are no longer in a polite society, they are under attack and in survival mode. James felt remorse for killing the man in Australia and as a result probably would not have killed Cooper had he responded differently to the letter. Cooper's death was a crime of passion and tragic because it knocked James off his road to redemption. However, in the case of the stalking Other, it was self defense. The frog too, really. As for the defenseless enemy, Tom, he was only defenseless at that moment. There was no practical way to incarcerate him and he only would have tried to kill the Losties again. The Losties did not initiate the attack on the beach, they were defending against it. James and the Losties are at war. Yes, he had a vendetta to settle but he also has his group to protect.


I had a nice long post about this but stupid busy server lost it somewhere...dang
I have found that copying and pasting to Wordpad before clicking the "post quick reply" button can save a whole lot of duplicate effort.

I haven't read through the entire thread yet, but wanted to post my thoughts before they fall right out the side of my head from lack of morning caffeine.

I think that what we've seen of Sawyer so far has been a sort of circular progression. He started off much like the cold, distant Sawyer that we have seen in the last couple of episodes. I think that his island time has brought him the closest thing to a family that he's ever had. By getting close to the people around him and feeling like he had a place in this little society, he started to believe that he didn't have to be Sawyer, the con-man, the killer, the outlaw. He started to feel like he could be James. Tabula Rasa.

When he finally comes face to face with Cooper, his past just overwhelmed him, and in the moment, the rage and need for revenge won out. I almost feel like he has now moved into a place where he is so traumatized by what he did, that he's come to some sort of acceptance that it is his fate/genetics/destiny or what have you, to be a killer. That's why we now have a cold and distant Sawyer again, rather than the dry humored, yet very human, James that we have seen develop over the last 3 seasons.

Basically, I see him as two characters that he is having a very difficult time reconciling. There's Sawyer, the man on a mission that he feels he has to be. The man with no attachments, the very guarded macho man who keeps his distance, if only for his own protection. Then there's James, the man he wants to be, and caught a glimpse of as he built friendships on the island. Which side of him will ultimately win out, is what we'll just have to watch, wait and see. I think this will be the point of his character arc overall. Not will he be forgiven and accepted by other people, but will he forgive and accept himself and allow himself to enjoy life and feel deserving of happiness.

As I said, I haven't had enough coffee this morning, so I hope that all sounded at least a little coherent!

I would not want to live in that world either but that's part of the point. These people are no longer in a polite society, they are under attack and in survival mode. James felt remorse for killing the man in Australia and as a result probably would not have killed Cooper had he responded differently to the letter. Cooper's death was a crime of passion and tragic because it knocked James off his road to redemption. However, in the case of the stalking Other, it was self defense. The frog too, really. As for the defenseless enemy, Tom, he was only defenseless at that moment. There was no practical way to incarcerate him and he only would have tried to kill the Losties again. The Losties did not initiate the attack on the beach, they were defending against it. James and the Losties are at war. Yes, he had a vendetta to settle but he also has his group to protect.


I had a nice long post about this but stupid busy server lost it somewhere...dang
I have found that copying and pasting to Wordpad before clicking the "post quick reply" button can save a whole lot of duplicate effort.

Nice post and yes I usually do the copy thing at least but I forgot a few times and lost my damn posts. Ah well

and SQT, yes that was very coherent and a good post

I was watching "Once Upon a Time in Mexico" last night and I realized that when we watch these types of movies people are shooting other people all the time and we don't bat an eye, in fact we cheer for whoever the hero is supposed to represent even though at times the hero shoots defenseless people. For instance Selma Hayek's character shoots a man (in a flashback too) who is an evil man but at the time he is defenceless. She shoots him point blank...so does that make her an evil person or cold blooded killer. I don't think so and I think most people who have seen the movie would agree. There was a need to destroy this evil man who ends up living and creating more evil.

I hope my post is coherent as I am tired and it's really hot here...but I guess I'm trying to ask why it's ok for some people and not for others. I mean I am comparing fictional works here....

[quote=Drugal97;1571150]What's everyone's take on Sawyer in this ep? Where do you think his character is going?

I sort of got this chill when Sawyer killed Mr. Friendly... seemed a bit much... this is the man that didn't want to kill Ben a few eps before. Has Sawyer gotten a taste of vengeance & been more corrupted than he was before...

He was real nasty to Kate... but that's typical of Sawyer when he's dealing with some inner trauma... but we saw him big time reverting... being nasty, suicide missions... so where's his character going?[/quote

Remember when Sawyer said " Zeke, you and me ain't through yet" in Season 2 at the "line" towards the north end of the island.

Well I guess he absolutlely meant it!!!! This guy was evil to Sawyer and almost killed him a few times. Good for James! This is - was war at this point. He also hurt his honey too!

... Sawyer had his parents taken from him in a manner, and wanted revenge against Cooper. He gets his revenge against Cooper, with Locke starting him on the road to redemption. The road bumps he's hitting are just part of the path. Somewhere along the line, I think Sawyer will have to make a choice, whether or not to become a man of faith. And that choice will either lead to his redemption or his judgment.

That's what I'm hoping for, Mulder - that he will make the choice to become a man of faith. I think if he had 5 minutes to digest what he's seen in the last month, that would go a long way toward this path.

The Losties did not gas some 40 odd people in an attack. They are under attack. They are acting in self-defense. True, James had a score to settle with Tom and I am saddened and disappointed that he settled it by killing him because I agree with you that revenge is not a solution. But - under the circumstances, was it practical to think the Losties could hold a prisoner? They are at war.
I thought about that too, Mona, and agree with you. I think he knew that Tom would get loose and probably kill at least one of them.
I would not want to live in that world either but that's part of the point. These people are no longer in a polite society, they are under attack and in survival mode. James felt remorse for killing the man in Australia and as a result probably would not have killed Cooper had he responded differently to the letter. Cooper's death was a crime of passion and tragic because it knocked James off his road to redemption. However, in the case of the stalking Other, it was self defense. The frog too, really. As for the defenseless enemy, Tom, he was only defenseless at that moment. There was no practical way to incarcerate him and he only would have tried to kill the Losties again. The Losties did not initiate the attack on the beach, they were defending against it. James and the Losties are at war. Yes, he had a vendetta to settle but he also has his group to protect.
Finally! Someone else on this board that gets that they are no longer in polite society and the world they are having to live in now plays by a totally different set of rules!
He felt tremdous remorse over Frank Duckett. That didn't bring Frank back but I think that was the beginning of him wondering just what in the world he was becoming.
I think Cooper's death will resonate a lot longer than Frank Duckett or Tom's death. This was the culmination of what he's thought would be his redemption since he was 8 years old. He's been stuck emotionally there all his life. (More on that below...)
...
I think that what we've seen of Sawyer so far has been a sort of circular progression. He started off much like the cold, distant Sawyer that we have seen in the last couple of episodes. I think that his island time has brought him the closest thing to a family that he's ever had. By getting close to the people around him and feeling like he had a place in this little society, he started to believe that he didn't have to be Sawyer, the con-man, the killer, the outlaw. He started to feel like he could be James. Tabula Rasa.

When he finally comes face to face with Cooper, his past just overwhelmed him, and in the moment, the rage and need for revenge won out. I almost feel like he has now moved into a place where he is so traumatized by what he did, that he's come to some sort of acceptance that it is his fate/genetics/destiny or what have you, to be a killer. That's why we now have a cold and distant Sawyer again, rather than the dry humored, yet very human, James that we have seen develop over the last 3 seasons.

Basically, I see him as two characters that he is having a very difficult time reconciling. There's Sawyer, the man on a mission that he feels he has to be. The man with no attachments, the very guarded macho man who keeps his distance, if only for his own protection. Then there's James, the man he wants to be, and caught a glimpse of as he built friendships on the island. Which side of him will ultimately win out, is what we'll just have to watch, wait and see. I think this will be the point of his character arc overall. Not will he be forgiven and accepted by other people, but will he forgive and accept himself and allow himself to enjoy life and feel deserving of happiness.

As I said, I haven't had enough coffee this morning, so I hope that all sounded at least a little coherent!
You are sounding very coherent. Much more than me and it's 2 in the afternoon here. :)

I'm sure that everyone on this board knows someone who's stuck emotionally,or in their maturation, at a certain age. For some people, it's in childhood. For others, it's in their teenage years, etc. I think this is what happened to James. Witness the fact that he's supposed to be a con man and keeps accepting folks on the Island at their word and has been conned several times since the crash. He's only pulled one good con and his method of doing that was immature as were his reasons - jealousy and a need to be recognized as someone of consequence on the Island. He started maturing and thinking of other people - witness him trying to keep Kate from knowing they were on an island and that escape, as far as he knew, was futile. He's reluctantly embrace Jack, Kate, Hurley, Charlie and Jin as friends. Am I the only here who thinks that these people may be the first real friends he has ever had? Think about the implications of that for a minute. He's what? Around 38 or 40 years old? And they are probably the first friends he's had since he was a child? We don't know enough about his youth to know what his grandparents were like. I think that would very interesting ( I thought it was interesting that Charlie's dad was a loving man - at least sometimes). Someone here said the writers have to break the characters down in order to bring them back up and I think that's exactly what's happening with James as well as Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Jin and Sun.
Even though the character of Saywer/James is nothing new in books, i. e., Shell Scott, etc., we haven't see many characters like him on television because he's hard to pigeonhole. Is he good? Is he bad? Like any really good fictional character, it all depends on the viewer and what's going on their lives. Is the viewer someone who, in real life, looks for the underlying reasons for someone actions or are they someone who accepts thing at face value? If they are someone who accepts things at face value, do they keep secrets about themselves?

...
I hope my post is coherent as I am tired and it's really hot here...but I guess I'm trying to ask why it's ok for some people and not for others. I mean I am comparing fictional works here....

I think the reason we feel it's alright, linerk, is that it's a question of motive and the facts surrounding the act. I didn't consider either Ethan or Tom as defenseless. At the moment they might have been but they were both as wily as a rattlesnake or copperhead and if you don't cut their head off, you might be giving your life for a moment of altruism.

:soapbox: Someone on this thread said, "It's just a TV show!" or something to that effect. That's true but like all good fiction, whether in print or on screen, the characters in a narrative can help us understand the world, other people or ourselves better. I know that after we lost a daughter, we did mourn for a while but we had two other children who needed our immediate attention. Oh on special days, such as her birthday or the day she died or Christmas, we would think of her with tremendous sadness or one of the boys would do something that was just like their sister and a cloud would float through our minds filled with grief, anger and loss but we thought we moved on. Then, on General Hospital, they had a daughter, who was the same age as our daughter at the time of her death, die in a very similar way. This was about 7 years after our daughter died and it hit me like a Mack truck. My husband and I realized we had been "sleepwalking" through life and hadn't really dealt with the loss of our daughter and we had kept the precious memories of her locked inside us instead of sharing them with her little brother who had been growing up thinking his sister was perfect or an angel. Now we laugh about her foibles and remember her with smiles even when there's a remaining sadness that she's not with us. While General Hospital is a fictional show and by no means great literature, it helped bring our family closer together and helped us realize truths that no amount of urging from other family members had or could have done. That's one example and there are others.
I'm a voracious reader and I can tell you that good fictional characters move us towards something better within ourselves or give us a check on a trajectory our lives may be traveling down and may encourage us to do better. Any good literature teacher or professor will tell you the same thing. Sometimes, it's just "mindless" entertainment and that's fine but, sometimes, it's much, much more.

Very nice post Guinevere and I'm sorry that you had to lose a daughter...that's very sad but I'm glad that you are able to deal with it, many people aren't.

Don't take my post the wrong way I am in support of Sawyer and the others he's killed on the island. I was just referring to the way some people on these boards seem to feel about Sawyer's killing of Tom. :biggrin: I also agree that they aren't in polite society and the rules don't apply. What exactly are they supposed to do with others bent on killing them...??

here's a pic:
http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x22-2/normal_3x22-glass1641.jpg

it doesn't matter if Tom is or isn't a good guy...he killed him in cold blood and was drinking a beer just after! he deals with murder too easily for me!I agree. There's good in Sawyer, but he keeps making bad decisions. He could have spared Tom, after all even in war if a soldier surrenders he is taken prisoner, nor executed (at least by the "good guys"). Sawyer could have spared Cooper as well, yes he had good reason to extract his revenge from Cooper, and Cooper seemed to be asking for it, but I for one wanted Sawyer to say "No". No to more killing, no to the dark side of his nature, no to evil. It looks unfortunately like he is heading in the other direction where he will do anything that seems to make sense to or benefit himself, damn the morality of his actions.

I'm intrigued by the number of fans who think killing Tom was justified. Yes, Tom was a bad man, no doubt about it. But he was on his knees and surrendering when Sawyer blasted him in the chest. That's murder folks.

Someone mentioned that society's rules do not apply anymore. Why not? Defending yourselves is one thing, but killing an unarmed man on his knees is another. What's good for the goose mentality should not rule the day. Keeping Tom prisoner may have been impractical but killing him to avoid the inconvenience and risk of keeping him prisoner? On my. So do you all think that all prisoners of war should be killed?

I like Sawyer's character, don't get me wrong. I wasn't shocked that he killed Cooper, but I was astonished by HOW he did it. I could barely watch. That act was unredeemable. The man was tied to a chair and was completely defenseless, and all he did was con someone out of money. Just because you feel sorry for Sawyer does mean that what he does is justified.

Eko felt that he didn't need to seek forgiveness because he only did what he needed to survive. We saw what happened to him.