I wonder if Ben could not be up front with the losties for some reason, or if he was so deceitful for show purposes only. If he knew what was going on and really is a good guy, why wouldnt he just be honest and maybe the losties would believe him now. Or maybe he wanted everything to go down just like it did, that wouldnt surprise me. Now that we know that he can kill innocent people so easily, I am surprised he just didnt kill everyone in the first place assuring the continuation of his cause whatever that may be.
I guess what I am getting at is Ben is a genious who can see 10 steps ahead of eveyone else. I think he wanted it to happen this way. And for all those who say Jack called his bluff, I think Ben knew that would happen too. The only bothering me was he did encourage Locke to shoot Jack. In true Lost fashion, something is not adding up.

Whatever. Ben never tells the truth because if he did the series would have to wrap itself up about 2 episodes later.

This is a good question.

At this stage in the game, when Ben looks defeated- If he really doesn't want to Jack to contact the outside world because he foresees some new type of purge, why doesn't he just come right out and say, "Look, here's the deal..."

his lying has made him quite famous. I had never heard of the actor before lost and now everyone knows who he is.

I wonder if Ben could not be up front with the losties for some reason, or if he was so deceitful for show purposes only.

I think there is reasoning behind what Ben says, though I think alot of his calculated converstaions are going wrong for hom.

It's like the big bad wolf. Wait, no it isnt...its like the boy who cried wolf! Ben has blown his credibility in the eyes of Jack n the Losties....they dont believe a word of it. Sad but true cuz this time he was telling the truth.

he's deceitful for show purposes only. I think this is obvious from the season finale...he literally had the perfect chance to be up front and honest with Jack, and he didn't. Remember the circumstance: He was afraid that a force would come to the Island, in which he loved and devoted his life to, and would kill him and all of his people.

Not only did he believe his life was on the line, but also the thing that gave his life purpose was on the line. And he still decided to one, try and manipulate Jack into giving him the phone, and two, just tell Jack that some big, bad, iminent doomsday force would come and kill him if he tried to get off the Island; Forgetting the fact that he's teh same man that terrorized and kidnapped these people, and specifically this man, over the past three months. Why would Jack believe such a generalized statement? He has to give Jack facts, tell him things he didn't know, reveal something significant to make Jack at least take the time and find out things from Naomi. I mean for God's sake, there was no rush. The people weren't going to come to the Island until they called them.

If the Losties did things that made actual sense, the show wouldn't go past three seasons.

I think it's quite clear that Ben is the leader of a weird Jacob-cult.

So why didn't they approach the Losties and be honest with them right after the crash? Because the Losties would want to go home, which the Others could have arranged, but only at the cost of revealing this island to the world. So they sent infiltrators to make a list of those who could be recruited -- those who don't want to go back.

Later, after Charlie killed Ethan, it all changed. By that point, the Losties were never going to listen to reason, so they were all stuck.

Do you really think Jack was going to believe Ben, or, even if he believed him, agree with his assessment?

Ben: Okay, Jack here's the deal. Remember how I told you about the Red Sox winning the World Series and you didn't believe me until I showed you the tape?

Jack: Yeah?

Ben: Well, this is going to be like that on steroids. And I don't have a tape.

Jack: Just get on with it.

Ben: Okay. The island is ruled by a powerful poltergeist named Jacob.

Jack: Wait. So you believe in ghosts.

Ben: No. That would be silly. Just one ghost. Jacob.

Jack: Riiiight. Where is he?

Ben: Well, I'm the only one who can see him or talk to him.

Jack: Riiight...

Ben: Yeah, and Jacob really doesn't want anybody to leave the island. That's why he helped me kill my dad and all the Dharma researchers.

Jack: Okay...

Ben: And that's why I told all my people that the purple sky cut off communications. Really, I sent some agents to the Looking Glass to jam communications.

Jack: So Jacob told you to betray your own people.

Ben: Yah. Jacob's real paranoid. Anyway, the folks from Dharma? They've got ships stationed nearby and they're just waiting for the jamming to end so they can hone in on your phone's signal.

Jack: And then what?

Ben: Well, they're probably pretty pissed at me, so they're going to come in and I don't know. Either kill me and my people, or arrest us and shift us off island for trial. See? So that's why you can't let them make a call.

Jack: Okay. So let me get this straight. You're the sole reason, my people can't leave.

Ben: Well, me and Jacob.

Jack: Right. Jacob, who only you can see and hear.

Ben. Right.

Jack: And Jacob told you to have Ethan kidnap Claire.

Ben: Well, yes. We're trying to fix this infertility problem, see?

Jack: Which can be fixed by letting the pregnant women give brith off-island?

Ben: Yeah, but Jacob...

Jack: Who told you to kidnap Walt and blow up our raft.

Ben: Yeah.

Jack: And told you to send Michael to kill Ana Lucia and Libby.

Ben: Well, sorta...

Jack: And to kidnap me to perform spinal surgery.

Ben: Well, that was really just my idea.

Jack: And to kidnap Sun and any other pregnant women.

Ben: Well, yes, but...

Jack: And to kill Scott.

Ben: Steve.

Jack: Right. Steve.

Ben: Ethan did that on his own.

Jack: And to steal ALex from Danielle, driving her mad with grief.

Ben: Yeah.

Jack: And if I make the call, my people get rescued and you go to jail or die?

Ben: Well, I don't really know what they'll do to your people.

Jack: Is it worse than being stuck on an island with man-eating monsters, polar bears and a freakish murderous cult?

Ben: Well, not when you put it that way!

Yeah. I don't know why but I don't think that conversation was going to be very convincing to Jack.

Jack: And if I make the call, my people get rescued and you go to jail or die?
Ben: Well, I don't really know what they'll do to your people.
Jack: Is it worse than being stuck on an island with man-eating monsters, polar bears and a freakish murderous cult?
Ben: Well, not when you put it that way!


ROTFL!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Another reason why Ben chose not to tell the truth is that his
followers might think:
"Tell the truth? Hey, I could'a thought o'that! So why is Ben the boss again?"

Telling the truth is for sissies, not demi-god dictators.

Heuristics (the "H" in "DHARMA") is the answer to everything. Ben has become so good at providing exactly what is needed for people to think and do exactly what he wants them to do that it is just the most efficient way for him to communicate any longer.

He must want the communication with the boat to happen because he does not make his demands of Jack in front of Jack's people. That would have been a sure winner. He also knows that he will have a cache with the new arivals being a battered and broken prisioner. That is how he works.

How about this:

Theorizing that one could time-travel within his own lifetime, Benjamin Linus led an elite group of scientists into the desert, to develop a top-secret project known as Quantum Leap. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Ben prematurely stepped into the project accelerator, and vanished... He awoke to find himself trapped in the past, facing mirror images that were not his own, and driven by an unknown force to change history for the better. His only guide on this journey is Jacob, an observer from his own time, who appears in the form of a hologram that only Ben can see and hear. And so Ben finds himself leaping from life to life, striving to put right what once went wrong, and hoping each time that his next Leap...will be the Leap home...





...for the love of God, I hope someone gets that reference...Otherwise I'll feel really old.

How about this:

Theorizing that one could time-travel within his own lifetime, Benjamin Linus led an elite group of scientists into the desert, to develop a top-secret project known as Quantum Leap. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Ben prematurely stepped into the project accelerator, and vanished... He awoke to find himself trapped in the past, facing mirror images that were not his own, and driven by an unknown force to change history for the better. His only guide on this journey is Jacob, an observer from his own time, who appears in the form of a hologram that only Ben can see and hear. And so Ben finds himself leaping from life to life, striving to put right what once went wrong, and hoping each time that his next Leap...will be the Leap home...





...for the love of God, I hope someone gets that reference...Otherwise I'll feel really old.


Way before my time, and I'm not young.
But yeah, Quantum Leap.
Ive always considered that Lost is infact a remake of some old show.
The real fantasy Island....


-Exodus

"Good guys" don't betray & commit mass murder against their own people the way he did. Whether he does things for a good reason or bad...he is an evil man with an agenda.

Some people would just rather climb a tree and tell you a lie than stand on the ground and tell you the truth. Usually these people think they are smarter than everyone around them. Ben does seem to be pretty smart, but he is so used to being able to manipulate people and outsmarting them, that he can't even imagine a scenario where he is unable to do it. That is why he keeps lying. I loved that he finally admitted to Mikhail that he had lied about the looking glass. All of us know that he has lied about many things, but he always seems really angry when one of his own people accuses him of lying. That was a great, but overlooked, moment for Ben.

"Good guys" don't betray & commit mass murder against their own people the way he did. Whether he does things for a good reason or bad...he is an evil man with an agenda.


What if his own people--those 40 people--were going to end up being responsible for the deaths of millions of people...

would he still not be a good guy?

All it takes is one piece of information to shift an entire paradigm. Right/Wrong and Good/Evil just isn't that simple.

You can say, 'murder is wrong' until you're blue in the face. But if you knew what Hitler was planning during his rise to power would it really have been wrong to kill him?

I'm not saying Ben has/had a 'good' reason for any of this. I just think we're maybe a bit hasty in reaching our conclusions.

I wonder if Ben could not be up front with the losties for some reason, or if he was so deceitful for show purposes only. If he knew what was going on and really is a good guy, why wouldnt he just be honest and maybe the losties would believe him now. Or maybe he wanted everything to go down just like it did, that wouldnt surprise me. Now that we know that he can kill innocent people so easily, I am surprised he just didnt kill everyone in the first place assuring the continuation of his cause whatever that may be.
I guess what I am getting at is Ben is a genious who can see 10 steps ahead of eveyone else. I think he wanted it to happen this way. And for all those who say Jack called his bluff, I think Ben knew that would happen too. The only bothering me was he did encourage Locke to shoot Jack. In true Lost fashion, something is not adding up.

I have a coworker who said the same thing. I told if he said the truth there would not be a show.

Remember, they've embraced the 'good' people that were on the plane. By 'good', they mean people who are, in a sense, 'worthy' and 'ready' to move away from their past lives and embrace their new life on the island.

How about this:

Theorizing that one could time-travel within his own lifetime, Benjamin Linus led an elite group of scientists into the desert, to develop a top-secret project known as Quantum Leap. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Ben prematurely stepped into the project accelerator, and vanished... He awoke to find himself trapped in the past, facing mirror images that were not his own, and driven by an unknown force to change history for the better. His only guide on this journey is Jacob, an observer from his own time, who appears in the form of a hologram that only Ben can see and hear. And so Ben finds himself leaping from life to life, striving to put right what once went wrong, and hoping each time that his next Leap...will be the Leap home...





...for the love of God, I hope someone gets that reference...Otherwise I'll feel really old.
I got it, thanks for the chuckle.

How about this:

Theorizing that one could time-travel within his own lifetime, Benjamin Linus led an elite group of scientists into the desert, to develop a top-secret project known as Quantum Leap. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Ben prematurely stepped into the project accelerator, and vanished... He awoke to find himself trapped in the past, facing mirror images that were not his own, and driven by an unknown force to change history for the better. His only guide on this journey is Jacob, an observer from his own time, who appears in the form of a hologram that only Ben can see and hear. And so Ben finds himself leaping from life to life, striving to put right what once went wrong, and hoping each time that his next Leap...will be the Leap home...





...for the love of God, I hope someone gets that reference...Otherwise I'll feel really old.

I don't agree with your theory. I'm pretty dead-set on Benjamin aquiring a wormhole device that is activated by a handy remote-control that lets him visit different dimensions. Of course, when he finds the one he likes, he'll toss the remote control and stay there forever, but Ben is on a quest to find this dimension. In the meantime, he's sliding into worlds so strange that they have smoke monsters, invisible prophetics, and people that don't age.

...I hope someone gets THAT reference. :P

Ha!

I miss that show too.

How about this:

Theorizing that one could time-travel within his own lifetime, Benjamin Linus led an elite group of scientists into the desert, to develop a top-secret project known as Quantum Leap. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Ben prematurely stepped into the project accelerator, and vanished... He awoke to find himself trapped in the past, facing mirror images that were not his own, and driven by an unknown force to change history for the better. His only guide on this journey is Jacob, an observer from his own time, who appears in the form of a hologram that only Ben can see and hear. And so Ben finds himself leaping from life to life, striving to put right what once went wrong, and hoping each time that his next Leap...will be the Leap home...





...for the love of God, I hope someone gets that reference...Otherwise I'll feel really old.


I got it too and was laughing as I read it! :lol: Between the opening of the thread and your reply, this is a fun one. :biggrin:

Marksman, your dialog made a very good point - and made me laugh very hard! Thanks!

I was thinking this last night. Ben really could have been "somewhat" honest from the start. The Others should have approached the Losties right after the crash and helped them, taken them to the Barracks. Then tell them the Island is a research site, which is in the middle of an electromagnetic field that prevents communication with the outside world. The only contact they have is when a ship arrives every 6 months carrying supplies and personnel. So they'll be glad to shelter them during that time.
That gives Ben ample time (wasn't Juliette supposed to be there for just 6 months also?) to conduct research on the Losties, wouldn't be hard to convince some of them of that. Meanwhile he can really find out who's recruitable -- don't forget many don't really have a reason to go back to civilization. Smokey would kill a few, maybe the polar bears take a couple more, some more still can be abducted and killed without arousing suspicion. It's really quite simple.

"Jack: And to kidnap me to perform spinal surgery.

Ben: Well, that was really just my idea.

Jack: And to kidnap Sun and any other pregnant women.

Ben: Well, yes, but...

Jack: And to kill Scott.

Ben: Steve.

Jack: Right. Steve.

Ben: Ethan did that on his own.

Jack: And to steal ALex from Danielle, driving her mad with grief.

Ben: Yeah.

Jack: And if I make the call, my people get rescued and you go to jail or die?

Ben: Well, I don't really know what they'll do to your people.

Jack: Is it worse than being stuck on an island with man-eating monsters, polar bears and a freakish murderous cult?

Ben: Well, not when you put it that way!"




I can't wait for TPTB to see read this and recruit you to write a few epi's for season 4. I love it!!!!!!!

That sounds great in theory, but things have a tendency to not work as planned.

Especially on this island.

How about this:

Theorizing that one could time-travel within his own lifetime, Benjamin Linus led an elite group of scientists into the desert, to develop a top-secret project known as Quantum Leap. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Ben prematurely stepped into the project accelerator, and vanished... He awoke to find himself trapped in the past, facing mirror images that were not his own, and driven by an unknown force to change history for the better. His only guide on this journey is Jacob, an observer from his own time, who appears in the form of a hologram that only Ben can see and hear. And so Ben finds himself leaping from life to life, striving to put right what once went wrong, and hoping each time that his next Leap...will be the Leap home...


...for the love of God, I hope someone gets that reference...Otherwise I'll feel really old.

So, you're saying Jacob is a Cylon?

LOL, Marksman...loved your post; I think that other than the Boston Red Sox reference that is the way it would have went down if Ben simply tried to convince Jack.

That point did sort of bother me about the finale...still wondering, a bit, why Ben couldn't have thrown Jack (and us) a few more bones of information about WHY Naomi's group was so dangerous.

Oh, and I totally got the Quantum Leap reference...kinda dates me!
(woo hoo...there...my first post!)

I posted in another thread that Ben and the others really are the "good guys" -- and took flak for it. Just remember that, from Ben's POV, they are the good guys and that he's "right."

BUT I think they are the good guys because they are trying to protect the island at all costs. Ben sees the others versus all "outsiders" (and the rest of the world) who seek to destroy thier miraculous island. Ben knows (and I'm completely onboard with this theory) that the "rescue ship" is actually the Dharma Initiative finally returning to take back the island. That's why he characterized their presence as an "invasion." John Locke also felt Jack was making a mistake by contacting the ship and, as we discovered, Jack in RETROSPECT regretted leaving the island.

All of which leads me to the question at hand of Ben's lying. Ben is the leader of the others. Ultimately he is trying to get this community to act in the best interest of the island. To him they are at war with the rest of the world and he will use any means necessary to protect the island. WHY? Because he knows the island is magical and miraculous but most importantly a conduit to HIS MOTHER! If the island is destroyed so is that conduit.

Clearly the original Dharma Initiative set up camp and forced their way in. Somehow the "hostiles" armed themselves with modern weaponry and, as we witnessed, purged the DI. I believe the DI is back and will purge the others once and for all for control of the island. So you see Ben's deceit was all carefully measured in order to achieve the ultimate goal. The losties have made it far more complicated for him . . . but I believe that the ends are justifying the means in regards to the island.

No, it's only bad if you base your idea around Locke and Walt traveling through time with a complicated pocket watch. Then.. and only then, are you dating yourself.

No, it's only bad if you base your idea around Locke and Walt traveling through time with a complicated pocket watch. Then.. and only then, are you dating yourself.

Missed that one. I remember people travelling through time in a Policeman's Box, but not with a complicated pocket watch...

Missed that one. I remember people travelling through time in a Policeman's Box, but not with a complicated pocket watch...

Can't date yourself with Doctor Who, it's got a still continuing history going on 45 years. :) You can claim you only started watching the revival.

Thanks for the responses. I miss Quantum Leap. Remember that one episode when he played quarterback and Kathy Ireland kicked a field goal?

Thanks for the responses. I miss Quantum Leap. Remember that one episode when he played quarterback and Kathy Ireland kicked a field goal?

hmmm, I think that was a film. Necessary Roughness. I think.


Quantum Leap is still my fave show of all time, but LOST is in a close second.


As for Ben and his lying, I think it's his way of manipulating people/situations. Juliet seems to have taken a page from his book as well. That arrogant face she makes at
everyone but Jack- as if to say, "I know something that you don't, and it makes me
inifinitely better than you." I hate her.

As for Ben and his lying, I think it's his way of manipulating people/situations.

Ben may not know how to be any other way anymore.


Oh.. and the show reference previously was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyagers! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyagers%21)

I think they are the good guys because they are trying to protect the island at all costs.Protecting the island may very well be a "good" thing. But Ben's methods speak much louder than his intentions, and connecting what the Others have done since Season 1 to the cause of "protecting the island" would require some pretty tenuous logic.

Ben knew very well the Losties were merely victims of a plane crash, not an invasion force. He very deliberately made the plans to infiltrate, kidnap, harass, murder, and otherwise deceive (hillbilly costumes?) them, while at the same time holding the means to outright get them off the island, presumably without the island ever being found.

Plus, we haven't exactly seen Dharma in a negative light either. I was fully expecting when they ended Season 2 with the "We're the good guys" line, that the writers would try to convince us of the Others' true benevolence (the old "from a certain point of view" cliche). But no, this season they pretty much nailed home the idea of the Others being cruel and viscious.
100%
I'm not saying Ben has/had a 'good' reason for any of this. I just think we're maybe a bit hasty in reaching our conclusions.Ben had plenty of opportunity to explain his "goodness," especially while he was holding Jack & Friends at gunpoint in cages. The writers have gone out of their way to show Ben and the Others as "bad" people; other than trying to anticipate future plot twists prematurely, I think viewers have very little reason to conclude otherwise...

I think Ben genuinely is acting for the 'greater good', as Jack will come to realise too late. He is not honest with them and doesn't let them leave for the truthful reason that he tells Alex on their hike - '(he) I can't'

It's been a huge recurring theme from day one that those people who have faith in the island, and allow themselves to willingly and voluntarily accept it as their home have good things coming their way - locke, Rose, Walt, Mikhail, Ben etc. Another is the the theme of Ben's manipulations. He tells Jack 'No...I want you to want to save me'. He doesn't show him the Red Sox video until Jack completely refuses to believe it. He makes Sawyer think he needs to stay in the cage rather than just showing him that he couldn't escape if he wanted to etc.

Once the people from the 'ship' arrive, it will become clear that Ben and the others, are in fact, in their own particular shade of grey, the good people. The island seems to be all about self discovery and the faith. Even when Richard recruited him, we can assume he was gradually taught the secrets over many years - 'Okay..maybe that can happen..but its going to take patience' . I doubt Jacob/the Island accepts anyone who hasnt truly made the journey , and knowing that Ben knows he must let them choose it for themselves despite what thehy may think now. It's the only way to really 'save' them. To let them save themselves, not putting it on a plate for them. To try would probably put them in worse danger (for their souls or to the island or whatever the endgame turns out to be). Without knowing what the 'bad guys' coming in represent yet, it's easy to interpret the actions as evil. But if you look at Bonnie's reaction to Charlie, its about perspective and what you know. 'Go easy? He's one of them!' If we had been told the story from the Others perspective, we would see a bunch of strangers who come in, and have killed about 15 people to their 1 or 2. They could easily have appeared terrifying and evil to us, just like when Eko clubs the rafties before we know who he is. Scary guy.

The clearest indication that he was telling the truth for me was the way locke walked away. He tries and pleads and begs and shoots at first. Then he looks truly sad and resigned, 'Jack..you werent supposed to do this.' He doesn't even try to warn people or keep trying to stop him. The second Jack speaks a word on the phone, locke is already doing his best to put some distance betweeen himself and these poor doomed fools. Note that even he doesnt explain why, even though he does want to help Jack, only that he really must.

No, it's only bad if you base your idea around Locke and Walt traveling through time with a complicated pocket watch. Then.. and only then, are you dating yourself.

How about travelling through time courtesy of a basset hound and a WABAC?

hmmm, I think that was a film. Necessary Roughness. I think.


Quantum Leap is still my fave show of all time, but LOST is in a close second.

It is Necessary Roughness, that was the joke. Quantum Leap is a great show but I gotta go with Lost.


Another question. Is it okay to kill 100 to save a million? I think the answer is an obvious "yes", but I think many disagree. I guess it all depends who the 100 are....Or maybe it is never okay.


Wow, I just referenced an awful film while asking a deep philosophical question. I suck.

I can't wait for TPTB to see read this and recruit you to write a few epi's for season 4. I love it!!!!!!!

From your lips to JJ Abrams' ears!!!

Seriously, I always thought a fun scene would be if everyone sat around a campfire and revealed the information they've been withholding for no reason whatsoever.