Was it me or did all the people that died in this episode were all The Others? Did any of the Losties get murdered in this episode by the others? Seems like the Losties did a lot of killing tonight. Does this mean anything? I wonder...

ummm, did you miss the Charlie death scene?

The Others died because they were the aggressors. It's called self-defense.

ummm, did you miss the Charlie death scene?

The Others died because they were the aggressors. It's called self-defense.



I didn't miss the Charlie death scene. In fact I think that Russian dude was just trying to flood the station by letting loose that grenade. If he wanted to kill Charlie and Desmond he could have before he escaped. The Others could have killed Sayid, Jin, and Bernard instead of capturing them and tying them up. Afterall, that trio had just BLEW up their friends with dynamite! They control their emotions and disarmed the trio.

However, when Sawyer, Juliet, and Hurley return to the beach they use death and mayhem to achieve their goals, Even the killing of unarmed Tom.

Believe me, most of the Others got what they deserved in the end there in my opinion. But does it say something about the Losties with their huge body count they racked up in tonight's season finale?

Let's see - Dead: All 10 of the Others that went to the beach, Charlie & the 2 chicks in the Looking Glass. Oh, and whoever's funeral it was that had Jack torn up in the future.

Seriously injured/may or may not be dead: Patchy with a harpoon through the abdomen (yet still able to get his scuba gear on, swim outside and detonate the granade) and Naomi (knife to the back?).

14 confirmed deaths - 12 Others, 1 Lostie, 1 future death unknown
2 seriously injured - 1 Other & Naomi (not quite sure who she's working for yet)

Not a bad body count for the finale.

I didn't miss the Charlie death scene. In fact I think that Russian dude was just trying to flood the station by letting loose that grenade. If he wanted to kill Charlie and Desmond he could have before he escaped. The Others could have killed Sayid, Jin, and Bernard instead of capturing them and tying them up. Afterall, that trio had just BLEW up their friends with dynamite! They control their emotions and disarmed the trio.

However, when Sawyer, Juliet, and Hurley return to the beach they use death and mayhem to achieve their goals, Even the killing of unarmed Tom.

Believe me, most of the Others got what they deserved in the end there in my opinion. But does it say something about the Losties with their huge body count they racked up in tonight's season finale?


You're right. The others did get what they deserved. It's about time our Losties showed some nads and did what needed to be done. Sawyer was getting revenge on "Tom" Friendly for doing some messed up stuff in the past even though he might have come off as a "nice" guy in the last half of the season. They all deserved it and I, for one, am glad our guys stepped up and showed some gonads in dealing out some buttwhoopin.

...
14 confirmed deaths - 12 Others, 1 Lostie, 1 future death unknown...Didn't Ben tell Jack "You've killed seven of my people"? Was Ben that far off? I'm sure that Ben didn't that Greta and Bonnie were dead in the Looking Glass Station, but how did you arrive at ten Others buying the farm on Lostie Beach?

The beachies killed the last three. Hurley took out one with the van and then a neck snap and Tom taking a bullet at close range.

Mikhail killed the 2 women in the Looking Glass, and I believe, as hard as this is to say, that the spear went thru his heart, or at least higher up on his chest.

And that, to me, is the game-changer. The Others are no longer the big threat...they've been all but whiped out. Sure there's others back at camp but I think their agenda will be quite different under Richard. Me, I like the change...Season 4 being less about the Others and more about... the Invaders.

I think most of all it means there will be a lot of new faces, ie the Hostiles & the Bad Guys, in next seasons to replace those dead people.

Don't forget Pryce only took 10 with him to the beach and Alpert took the rest of them to the Temple, there could be people living at the temple, or in the "village" surrounding the temple, Idon't think that all the hostiles were living at the former home of the DI, just a few "Loyalists" and the people Ben recruited.

Don't forget Pryce only took 10 with him to the beach and Alpert took the rest of them to the Temple, there could be people living at the temple, or in the "village" surrounding the temple, Idon't think that all the hostiles were living at the former home of the DI, just a few "Loyalists" and the people Ben recruited.

Yes, I would agree, especially since we haven't really seen the children among the group of Others who are on the trek from the Barracks to the Temple with Richard. Maybe they're already at the Temple.
100%
Believe me, most of the Others got what they deserved in the end there in my opinion. But does it say something about the Losties with their huge body count they racked up in tonight's season finale?

One word: Karma.

It was karmic that the group sent to kidnap the mommies and kill anyone who got in their way ended up buying the farm. It was karmic that the two chicks in the Looking Glass who were so nasty to Charlie, and who were going to kill him ended up buying it. It was karmic that Naomi who was there to help bring an invading army who's mission will be to kill everyone on the Island bought it. And poor Charlie - his death was karmic too.

I was quite satisfied that Mr. Friendly Tom got his due, too. Engaging in kidnapping and murder are not exactly things that one can expect to do without having serious repercussions rain down on your head.

Instead of the Others rushing to the Flight 815 crash sites and trying their best to help the survivors in their terrible plight of trying to just ... well, survive ... the Others instead infiltrate them, kidnap them, and murder them. I do not believe the "ends justify the means", but apparently Ben and some of the Others do. And now that there has been such a major karmic kickback over their actions, the remaining Others under RIchard's leadership might be more willing to try to get along with the Flight 815 survivors - something they should have done right from the start!

And now that there has been such a major karmic kickback over their actions, the remaining Others under RIchard's leadership might be more willing to try to get along with the Flight 815 survivors - something they should have done right from the start!

I'm always :eek2: by the fact that people seems to see Richard as a "good" man...at least "better" than Ben... to me is a lot worse than Ben. He was the one who "hired" Ben as a troubled child and probably manipulate him judging by the age factor, he was the one who encouraged Locke to "kill" his father so he's responsible for Sawyer killing again and feeling bad and not a good person again, he was the one who was there and probably helped Juliet's husband to die, he was the one who could get off the island (with Ethan), he was clearly working for Mittelos bioscience which is probably a mittelwerk organisation...
that's not because the guy seems calm and good looking that he's not worse than Ben. :rolleyes: And the fact that he wants Ben being replaced i'm not sure that's something we could put to his credit...maybe he just can't manipulate Ben anymore that's why he wants to change the leader....:rolleyes:
if Ben tells the truth to Jack in the finale, he probably regrets killing all this people...we saw that his relationship with Richard is not very good (Richard not wishing Ben a happy birthday tells a lot... i think Ben sees Richard as his father ), to me, he doesn't trust Richard anymore and i think he's right! I don't trust Richard either. ;) I totally can see him still working for the dharma/hanso foundation...and sometimes i even wonder if Juliet is not his side (remember when she told Jack she wanted him to kill Ben...she said she wasn't the only one who wanted a change ) I think if Ben lies to his own team there's probably a reason...he doesn't trust some of them.

I'm always :eek2: by the fact that people seems to see Richard as a "good" man...at least "better" than Ben... to me is a lot worse than Ben.

All of what you say makes sense, and I agree with you. Richard is indeed a pretty hardcore character. But there's one thing he is that Ben is not - he's not hung up about his mother's death like Ben seems to be. This has caused Ben to make some mistakes about the direction he was taking the Others through his leadership - he was allowing his own personal past hangups to influence his leadership - something that he accused Locke of being guilty of, coincidentally...

But here's the thing: starting with the beginning of season four we're going to see a situation in which the weakened Others are going to be fighting for their very existence against the invaders. They're going to need all the help they can get just to survive. So having someone such as Richard as their leader will prove to be very valuable. Sure, he's a bad mofo, but that's probably precisely what is called for right now. And I think he is smart enough to realize that they need to bury the hatchet between them and the Losties in order to work together to face the threat of mutual annilhation from the invading army. Richard is just the man that the Others need right now.

Ben - well, Ben is a "has-been"... The only support he has now is from Mikhail. Every other person loyal to Ben has been killed off trying to follow Ben's self-serving orders. Even Locke knows this. Locke did not even acknowledge Ben when he came to kill Naomi and confront Jack about the phone. Ben is on his way out - he's started his long slide down to oblivion that will ultimately end in his dead body being discovered in a Los Angeles apartment, and only Jack will show up for his viewing. In my opinion, of course...

But here's the thing: starting with the beginning of season four we're going to see a situation in which the weakened Others are going to be fighting for their very existence against the invaders. They're going to need all the help they can get just to survive. So having someone such as Richard as their leader will prove to be very valuable. Sure, he's a bad mofo, but that's probably precisely what is called for right now. And I think he is smart enough to realize that they need to bury the hatchet between them and the Losties in order to work together to face the threat of mutual annilhation from the invading army. Richard is just the man that the Others need right now.

Actually i'm not so sure...because if Richard is still working for the hanso foundation/Dharma and if Naomi is really Dharma (Mittelwerk period)...Richard is probably happy about what's happening...that's possibly what he wanted ... in this case i don't get why he would help the losties?:confused:
I think there's a possibility that when Juliet told Ben he had cancer, Ben realized he has been manipulated since day one by Richard/Mittelwerk to kill Dharma...and that could be the moment he turned himself against them...that's why now the others thinks Ben has lost it and they want a change...because they don't understand him anymore and his actions ...like not killing Sayid/Bernard/Jin...

Ben is on his way out -

I hope not...this is my favorite character on the show...i want to see him in season 4,5 and 6! lol

Actually i'm not so sure...because if Richard is still working for the hanso foundation/Dharma...

I am not sure how one can deduce that Richard was ever working for DHARMA or the Hanso Foundation. We've seen that he was working for Mittelos when he and Ethan were recruiting Juliet, but Mittelos is a separate company from Hanso, just like Paik Heavy Industries is...

...and if Naomi is really Dharma (Alvar hanso period)...Richard is probably happy about what's happening...that's possibly what he wanted ... in this case i don't get why he would help the losties?:confused:

One of the biggest goals of Ben and the Others (including Richard) has been to prevent anyone off-Island from knowing the whereabouts of the Island, including anyone connected with Mittelos or the Hanso Foundation. Why is that the case? Because they already purged their island from people (DHARMA) who had intruded, and they don't want anyone else finding it. That in itself ought to be reason enough for Richard not to want Naomi or her shipmates to find the Island.

However, I believe that the really major reason for this is because the people on that ship have every intention of coming to the Island and conducting a second purge - ridding it of every living person, just as Ben said. And that includes Richard and the Others, as well as the Losties. Why would they do that? Because the Others nixed the deal they had with Mittelwerk by cutting themselves off from outside communications. Mittelwerk is hopping mad and wants to retake control over the Island in order to resume his clandestine research.

There may be other people behind that ship, including Charles Widmore and Mr. Paik, but they would not be wanting to kill off every living person on the Island like Mittelwerk would want to (if what Ben said is accurate).

I think there's a possibility that when Juliet told Ben he had cancer, Ben realized he has been manipulated since day one by Richard/Mittelwerk to kill Dharma...and that could be the moment he turned himself against them...that's why now the others thinks Ben has lost it and they want a change...because they don't understand him anymore and his actions ...like not killing Sayid/Bernard/Jin...

I think Ben knew full well what he was doing. In fact, I think that it was Ben who initiated contact with Mittelwerk to obtain the weapons and gas canisters that the Others/Hostiles used for their Purge (including the one Ben used to kill his own father with). But, as with most things here, this is just a theory...

I am not sure how one can deduce that Richard was ever working for DHARMA or the Hanso Foundation. We've seen that he was working for Mittelos when he and Ethan were recruiting Juliet, but Mittelos is a separate company from Hanso, just like Paik Heavy Industries is...

Mittelos is probably related to Mittelwork and i think Richard was working for mittelwerk since day one ...his job was to take control of the dharma/hanso foundation(Alvar hanso period) manipulating young Ben he succeeded...and that's how mittelwerk took control of the hanso foundation. At least that's my theory!
Richard doesn't seem to age so may be at some point he has been part of the life extension project... the more i think about it the more i think this guy is not a native!

One of the biggest goals of Ben and the Others (including Richard) has been to prevent anyone off-Island from knowing the whereabouts of the Island, including anyone connected with Mittelos or the Hanso Foundation. Why is that the case? Because they already purged their island from people (DHARMA) who had intruded, and they don't want anyone else finding it. That in itself ought to be reason enough for Richard not to want Naomi or her shipmates to find the Island.

Actually i think Ben was the only one to jam the signal the others weren't aware of that. We saw Richard and Ethan off island but it was before the communication problem...i think the communication problem occured after Ben's little travel in the hatch when he convinced Locke to stop pushing the button...Ben cut contact with the outside world and the hanso foundation on purpose... if Richard agreed with Ben's actions of cutting the signal and stay on the island i don't get why he wants to change leader and why he wants to put Locke... Locke who was the one who entered 77 :rolleyes: and who is possibly responsible for the arrival of invadors :rolleyes: and Richard didn't move at all when Mikhail told them they were invadors he left Locke beat him...:rolleyes:
I think since Ben went to the hatch , all the others are stuck on the island and Richard doesn't like that because he was one of the few who could go out and maybe meet Mittelwerk and decide a few things and keep manipulating Ben... i think Ben has stopped doing what the hanso foundation(via Jacob? and Richard?) wanted from him that's why some of the others want a change... i think Ben realized at some point he was helping the bad guys...maybe when juliet told him he had cancer he realized the hanso and Richard lied to him...we know that Ben is lying to his own people, i think that's because like Isabel said pretty well "he walks among them but he's not one of them" :biggrin: (ok she said for jack...but i think it fits pretty well to Ben and to Juliet too), he said to locke his motivation for joining the others was to "not end up in that ditch" that doesn't sound like a big commitment to the Hostiles/hanso foundation(?) to me, no? He choose to cooperate to save his life.
I think he switched side otherwise i don't get why he went unarmed and alone to stop the losties (who hates him and doesn't believe him at all) to call the outside world and he didn't want Richard to go!:eek2: To me he doesn't trust Richard...i think the moment he met Richard he saw him as "good" father figure that was possibly part of the reason he helped the hostiles first...
now we saw that Richard doesn't even remember Ben's birthday...:rolleyes: so i think he sees Richard as his father...but the "bad" version this time, he's not on Richard's side anymore to me. Maybe he never was but choose to cooperate because he had no choice...otherwise he would be dead...
Just my theory! Ben is not a regular other to me.

I loved this episode BECAUSE of all the Other killings. Finally!!! I was able to overlook a few annoyances and many booooooring Jack scenes because FINALLY the Others got what was coming to them.

Mittelos is probably related to Mittelwork and i think Richard was working for mittelwerk since day one ...his job was to take control of the dharma/hanso foundation(Alvar hanso period) manipulating young Ben he succeeded...and that's how mittelwerk took control of the hanso foundation. At least that's my theory!
Richard doesn't seem to age so may be at some point he has been part of the life extension project... the more i think about it the more i think this guy is not a native!

Calypso,

You certainly have an interesting and unique take on things. I suppose we'll be shown fairly soon in Season Four a lot more about who Richard is, as well as his relation to Ben and Mittelos. Can't wait till February! (I thought I'd never be happy to see that month) ;)

Calypso,
You certainly have an interesting and unique take on things. I suppose we'll be shown fairly soon in Season Four a lot more about who Richard is, as well as his relation to Ben and Mittelos.

Thanks! That's sweet of you. I hope too! Maybe the action will only be off island and we'll have to wait a lot to have a few answers about the others... lol that's for sure ...that's lost after all lol :biggrin: :rolleyes:

Can't wait till February! (I thought I'd never be happy to see that month) ;)

:biggrin:
Yes me too!
It's going to be very long!:rolleyes:
At least we'll have time to read a lot of books who appeared on the show! lol :cool:

Each season in Lost has had a big overarching focus I would say. Season1 was getting to know the Losties, season 2 was all about dharma and the hatch. Season 3 was about about the others, who they are and their objectives.

Season 4 has to now have a new focus (getting off the island and Jacob). In order to have this focus most of the other's storyline had to be finished, and what better way to do this then killing 12 of them. Of course the writers left the most interesting others for us to watch in season 4 but I doubt we're going to see any other "drama" in season 4.

Each season in Lost has had a big overarching focus I would say. Season1 was getting to know the Losties, season 2 was all about dharma and the hatch. Season 3 was about about the others, who they are and their objectives.

Season 4 has to now have a new focus (getting off the island and Jacob). In order to have this focus most of the other's storyline had to be finished, and what better way to do this then killing 12 of them. Of course the writers left the most interesting others for us to watch in season 4 but I doubt we're going to see any other "drama" in season 4.
I think that you are right in your foci, the creators have said as much, but "other drama" is certain in that Juliette and Ben are still at odds, Karl and Alex and Rousseau have yet to come together and sort out their issues and we still don't know precisely what "the others" are trying to do on the island in the first place.

I think alot of people died because they wanted off the show... :)

It was karmic that Naomi who was there to help bring an invading army who's mission will be to kill everyone on the Island bought it.The invading army and kill everyone mission is based on Ben's statements - Is he a reliable source? Penny apparently did not know Naomi but could be for many reason and does not have to mean Naomi works for enemies of the Others.

dacheedster2690 - I like the interpretation that next season will see a new focus with a new group being involved.

I'm not so convinced about the getting off the island angle. Damon and Carlton stated in their last podcast that we would be getting to know more about the Dharma Initiative. I suppose that there are a lot of ways to do that. I think it is too soon to jump to conclusions about this rescue vessel.

And poor Charlie - his death was karmic too.

How so?! Charlie was trying to save all the Lostees. In terms of good karma, Charlie should have been saved from death, not murdered by Mikhail. Yes murdered...Mikhail fully intended to drown Charlie. You can see him mouthing the word "Die!" before he triggers the grenade. If Mikhail had no qualms about killing Bonnie and Greta (his own team!) he is hardly gonna be soft on Charlie and Desmond.

It was karmic for Desmond in that after all the times he saved Charlies life, Charlie died in the act of saving his life. But I don't think it was karmic for Charlie. He didn't deserve to die.

I completely disagree with the what the Losties did to the others and i think that the writers included these uncalled for murders for a reason. Especially after Sawyer shot Tom after he had surrendered. Even Hurley was disgusted in Sawyers actions, as was I. Sawyer used to be my favourite character, but after seeing him kill Tom for "taking the boy off the raft" he's gone well down in my estimation.

It was also a very DUMB move to kill all of the Others. Keeping Tom alive would have been very handy in case the Others managed to take anymore of the Losties. Also they could have tried to get information out of them about the island etc.

Juliet also looked shocked at Sawyers actions, you can see regret in her face... she thought she was changing to the safer, better side. Yet now i bet she's starting to wonder whether she made the right choice.

I completely disagree with the what the Losties did to the others and i think that the writers included these uncalled for murders for a reason. Especially after Sawyer shot Tom after he had surrendered. Even Hurley was disgusted in Sawyers actions, as was I. Sawyer used to be my favourite character, but after seeing him kill Tom for "taking the boy off the raft" he's gone well down in my estimation.

It was also a very DUMB move to kill all of the Others. Keeping Tom alive would have been very handy in case the Others managed to take anymore of the Losties. Also they could have tried to get information out of them about the island etc.

Juliet also looked shocked at Sawyers actions, you can see regret in her face... she thought she was changing to the safer, better side. Yet now i bet she's starting to wonder whether she made the right choice.
Re the Other's armed group attacking the camp in an effort to abduct any pregnant women and kill anyone who opposed them, I would call those killings self defense by the Lostees, not murder. Tom is the sole exception in that group of killings since he had surrendered which makes his killing murder.

Uncalled for murders in this episode:
The 2 ladies in the Looking Glass whose crime was "knowing too much" as far as Ben was concerned,
Charlie who was not attacking anyone but just striving for rescue.
Naomi who was knifed by Locke because of a suspicion that she was opposed to the Others and thus bad. :rolleyes:
Tom (who had it coming ;) )

Naomi who was knifed by Locke because of a suspicion that she was opposed to the Others and thus bad. :rolleyes:

I dont think it was a suspicion. I like to think John knew.

Yeah, ok, not all of them were murders. They were outnumbered and had to do what they had to do with the dynamite. It was when Hurley and Sawyer came to try and save Sayeed and co. Sayeed murdered one guard and Sawyer murdered Tom. The guy Hurley mowed down was his own stupid fault for not moving out of the way.

But still, there was a lot of killing in this episode that was uncalled for and stupid. Why do the Losties keep persisting in killing the Others? Surely they would want to try and capture them to find out information. For example, with what happened in the last episode, the Losties have fucked it. I know that they don't know about the helicopter or anything but they soon will do once Desmond hits the beach to tell them that Naomi is not who she says she is. The Losties will want to hook up with the Others or will want to try and find out who Naomi is. They had a better chance if they had kept a couple of the Others alive to answer questions. Not very smart.

Also. Didn't Sayeed have a problem with killing Mikhial after his flashback about that woman he tortured? Didn't seem to have a problem snapping that guys neck like a twig. He had disarmed him, he was on the floor, and if Sayeed can break a man neck with his calfs then surely he could choke a man out with them.

I understand that they had to shoot the dyanmite to protect themselves, but the killing that happened afterwards was uncalled for and not too clever on the Losties behalf.

Why do the Losties keep persisting in killing the Others? Surely they would want to try and capture them to find out information.
Yeah, that capture thing worked out so well when they had Ben! :rolleyes:

Yeah, things weren't so great for Ben but the Losties were screwed by Michael. Something that nobody could have predicted. I just think that it is all hypocritical, I mean, for example, if the shoe was on the other foot and the Others had just slaughtered Sayeed, Jin and Bernard then everybody would have cried and had a fuss about how evil the Others are. As soon as the Losties kill an Other then they're a hero.

It's just a bit sick to think about... then again, I suppose it is the way of the world. Look at what has happened between the West and Iraq and Afghanistan. They kill one of us and it's a tragedy, we kill one of them and it's glorious. Somebody I know lost a family member in Iraq, they were devastated, calling the Iraqi's evil. I say, what about all of the innocent families that have been bombed to crap and lost everything they ever knew to a war that they know pretty much NOTHING about.

Sorry to stray from the point, I just don't agree with murder.

People love TV and movie Justice. I just wish there was more dialog to the others before they died about --what comes around goes around.

Im glad they didnt kill Isabele. She was a very powerful actor as an other. I hope they bring her back

It was a great shot that moment after Sawyer had killed Tom. To see the look on Juliet's face it almost looked like it really hit her. There are no "good guys" and "bad guys" on the island. The show isn't clear cut black and white it is all shades of gray. Juliet realized in that moment that she wasn't fighting against the evil of Ben she was just fighting for one team against another.