Near the end of their conversation at the airport, Jack says to Kate: "I'm tired of flying" or "I'm tired of lying". Anyone know what he said. He was talking about flying a lot, so that might make more sense, but I was pretty sure he said "lying", which would be an important bit of info.

;)

yup.
i heard "lying"...not "flying".
i think the losties're keeping their misadventures mum
cuz nobody'd believe 'em anyway....
..so they all agreed to make up a cover story.

Thanks for the confirmation. :)

If this is being discussed elsewhere, I didn't see it. Mods, please only merge the thread if this specific piece of dialog is the primary topic elsewhere.

Jack to Kate (last scene of the episode): "I'm sick of lying."

He then goes on to say, "We made a mistake."

IMO, this was the most interesting and telling bit of dialog in the entire episode. It lends its self to lots of explanation, with minimal reading into it.

Earlier in the episode, Jack tells the new head of surgery, "You have no idea what I've been through." Also, at some point (I don't think it was at the same time as the Jack quote, but it may have been) the new head of surgery says to Jack, "You're a hero twice."

Lastly, we have murderess and international fugitive, Kate Austen, not in prison, but going merrily about her business. As evidenced by her having a known phone number.

I think this all ties back to, "I'm sick of lying."

First the questions. How is it that Kate is free? Jack's reaction to "You're a hero twice." looked to me like Jack didn't believe he was a hero, even once. (note to hysterics: I'm not saying Jack isn't a hero. I'm saying it looked to me, like HE didn't think he was a hero) We know why he might not feel heroic about the car wreck, but why wouldn't he feel his island deeds were heroic? Why would the new head of surgery, and for that matter, just about everyone else on the planet, have no idea what Jack (and all the other survivors) had been through? WE made a mistake? What joint mistake could they have made? Why is Jack sick of lying? And what is he lying about?

Surely the minute anyone hit civilization with flight 815 survivors, those survivors would have immediately become the hottest interview prospects around. They would be on Oprah, Leno, Larry King, all the newscasts and have more reporters following them around than Brangelina. Every person who ever picked up a magazine or newspaper or turned on a radio or television set would know, in agonizing detail, everything they had been through during their stay on the island.

Why don't they? Because Jack, and likely everyone else who made it back to civilization, is lying. They aren't saying what happened. They are being compelled to lie. They are telling some manufactured story about Jack the hero. I believe THAT is the mistake they made and it is driving Jack mad.

Who could do that? Who would have the power to compel them to lie? If it was just a person who said, "Hey, I'll get you back home if you promise not to talk.", I don't see Jack letting it drive him crazy. Surely he would talk.

Plus there's Kate. Somebody had to have enough stroke to set her loose. That implies government, or at least someone powerful enough to have influence over government.

I believe that whoever ultimately gets them off the island (NOT whoever is coming on Naomi's boat) is in a position to exchange their freedom for their silence. We'll send you home (and in Kate's case, get her charges dropped) and in return you will agree not to mention what really happened on the island. If you break this agreement, you die. (or some equally awful threat)

That is the mistake. Making their deal with the devil. Making the agreement that forces them to supress the trauma of the island.

Yes, I suspect that in S4 Jack will be dealing with an off-island group of people in his attempt to get back to the island. Lots of drama...can't wait!

I believe that whoever ultimately gets them off the island (NOT whoever is coming on Naomi's boat) is in a position to exchange their freedom for their silence. We'll send you home (and in Kate's case, get her charges dropped) and in return you will agree not to mention what really happened on the island. If you break this agreement, you die. (or some equally awful threat)

That is the mistake. Making their deal with the devil. Making the agreement that forces them to supress the trauma of the island.

Totally how I see it too...and the coffin contains someone who goes by an alias now, and Jack and Kate know who that really is.

I was thinking along those lines too, and it makes a lot of sense. What I'm still wondering is - did something really bad happen on the island before they left? Were some of the Losties killed? Or are some of them still there (as prisoners?)? Otherwise I wouldn't really understand why Jack so desperately wanted to go back...

Excellent post. I wish I had something to contribute other than to say that the same two questions jumped out at me: What were they lying about and why was Kate not in jail?

As far as Jack being the hero, I'm sure he was credited with leading them to rescue. Didn't he say that the airline had given them all Golden flying passes to acknowledge their trauma? But clearly there is more to the story of what happened when they were rescued. We still don't know what the truth is about the Oceanic Flight 815 that was found with everyone dead.

Just as a thought, maybe what they lied about was about the island itself. Otherwise, wouldn't people have been swarming there to investigate the crash etc.? Maybe, like with Desmond's flashes, Jack needs to go back to the island and do it over again "the way he was supposed to" to make things turn out as they should have.

Totally how I see it too...and the coffin contains someone who goes by an alias now, and Jack and Kate know who that really is.

Totally agree. They all had to lie in order to get rescued. So maybe Naomi was working for Hanso/Widmore and that's who comes with the helicopter for Claire?

I think when he says "made a mistake" it was the radio call.

"We weren't supposed to leave"

This wasnt supposed to come to pass and it has thrown everything into disarray temporally.

Why is Jack sick of lying? And what is he lying about? ... They aren't saying what happened. They are being compelled to lie. They are telling some manufactured story about Jack the hero. I believe THAT is the mistake they made and it is driving Jack mad. ...
I believe that whoever ultimately gets them off the island (NOT whoever is coming on Naomi's boat) is in a position to exchange their freedom for their silence. We'll send you home (and in Kate's case, get her charges dropped) and in return you will agree not to mention what really happened on the island. If you break this agreement, you die. (or some equally awful threat)
That is the mistake. Making their deal with the devil. Making the agreement that forces them to supress the trauma of the island.

VERY OBSERVANT!

I was thinking this, too... the first impression is to think that Jack wants back to the island so he can be a leader again. But that doesn't explain why he's become so drug/alcohol addled.

If Naomi is actually bad—and I think she's probably tied in to Penny's dad, who must be the guy who doesn't want the island to be found (it ALL goes back to Desmond, IMO)—then upon rescue, the Losties are probably paid/threatened/otherwise convinced not to tell the true story of what happened. And as Jack ALWAYS screws up (just like Carlton said in the podcast, if he succeeds, it'll be a disaster), he desperately wants to get back to the island to somehow fix things.

Meanwhile, I think Kate is probably married to Sawyer, because of the child, who could be born healthy if they're rescued in time. And Sawyer returned to his demons when back home, and that's why she seems unhappy in the flash forward.

The other thing from the "Flash-ahead"...clearly from all the maps and such in Jack's dingy abode, the Island is again unfindable, somehow.

I think when he says "made a mistake" it was the radio call.

"We weren't supposed to leave"

This wasnt supposed to come to pass and it has thrown everything into disarray temporally.

I would agree, except that he said "WE" made a mistake. That radio call was his mistake, not theirs. Now it is true that given the chance, that Kate or any of the others might have made the same mistake, but as it played out, they didn't. That call was all on Jack.

I think when he says "made a mistake" it was the radio call.

"We weren't supposed to leave"

This wasnt supposed to come to pass and it has thrown everything into disarray temporally.

I agree with you, and I'll take it one step further, again if this is being discussed I could not find it anywhere....

I think what happened is they returned "home", but they returned to a different timeline. Desmond popped into a running timeline, and I think there are multiple timelines being played out. Why is Jack's father alive in this timeline? (At least we can assume he is alive based on Jack talking about him). If they returned but things were slightly different wouldn't they lie? Would they want to talk about what happened on the island. We haven't seen them rescued yet, did something happen before the rescue? Anyway, this show could drive you crazy in a GOOD way....:)

i agree with everything the OP said.

another key thing that jack said was something like "im flying alot with the passes they gave us"

something along those lines. i think that the oceanic airline has something to do with this along with penny's dad. i agree that they were compelled to lie on what happened. maybe they were told that they could be the only ones rescued. them and claire and aaron of course but everyone else was left behind and if jack or kate ever talked then they would kill everyone that was left behind. in exchange they gave them a welcome back prize of unlimited flights anywhere hence what jack said about flying all the time.

in the end jack's mistake was making that radio call because like ben said it brought the wrong people to the island and now something else is happening there and jack feels like its his fault.
100%
I agree with you, and I'll take it one step further, again if this is being discussed I could not find it anywhere....

I think what happened is they returned "home", but they returned to a different timeline. Desmond popped into a running timeline, and I think there are multiple timelines being played out. Why is Jack's father alive in this timeline? (At least we can assume he is alive based on Jack talking about him). If they returned but things were slightly different wouldn't they lie? Would they want to talk about what happened on the island. We haven't seen them rescued yet, did something happen before the rescue? Anyway, this show could drive you crazy in a GOOD way....:)

i dont like the multiple timelines theory.

number #1 - its too complicated

number #2 - jack's father is dead.

evidence of jack's dad dead

1. ben says hes dead.

2. jack does write a prescription for himself but signs in his father's name. this is why the pharmacist was so suspect of him.

3. when he goes on his tirade the new head surgeon looks at jack funny with a sympathetic look of, "man, this guy still thinks his father is alive"

4. and obviously when jack mentions his father he is on drugs.

CAN WE END THIS ONCE AND FOR ALL? CHRISTIAN IS DEAD and never coming back in this timeline or any other.

To me, when the doctor called Jack a hero twice over he was refering to saving the boy and then going back for the mother. The doctor was giving Jack hero status for both the boy and the mother.

Well, actually the ONLY thing that makes sense to me in regards to Jack wanting to go back is if the Losties are still there. If they died (tragically or not), then what would be accomplished by going back? Just to live there? No, there has to be something there that he needs, or something he feels he can fix. We all know he likes to "fix" things.

My big question is, if we're looking at a flash forward of future Jack, and not an alternate reality, then what's the point? I mean, the past versions of themselves don't know any different from what they do in that present moment, so how could they change their actions to change the future? They'd only know they screwed up (like Jack did) after they made their mistake.... so something has to give, or someone has to see the future again. Either that or what we saw of Jack is like the climax before the denouement of the story, and in the end of the series, we get one more scene to complete things. Like maybe Jack causing a new plane to crash with new survivors and starting things all over again on the island? Just a thought...

GODLY POST

LOVE the idea that Jack was forced to lie and feed everyone in the world a false story.Kate doesn't seem to happy either. the quote is one of the most important snippets of that flash-forward

There has to be a reason why he wants back on that island and an equaly good reason as to why Kate doesn't.

I like the alternet future theory. It works if they can remeber the past and know the present they are in isn't correct.

Maybe Jacks father is alive in that present. Jack knows he shouldn't be. Maybe Kate isn't wanted in that present and that is why she is willing to leave things alone.

I think we need to first look at what the flashforward established:

* Jack and Kate made it off the Island. We don't know the particulars, but there's no doubt they're currently in Los Angeles.

* Jack is a complete disaster. He is drinking heavily and hooked on prescription pain medication. He's still prone to being a "fixer", is desperate to return to the Island, feels that he's "lied" about something, and infers that Kate is partly to blame for their lot.

* Kate looks free as a bird. Nicely dressed, nice car, working cell phone, and obvious (albeit relative) freedom. She appears to have some sort of obligation to a "him", appears distant from Jack, and doesn't feel the need to return to the Island. She also seems to believe that they were meant to be rescued and return to the outside world.

My guess is Jack feels a tremendous amount of guilt over leaving some or maybe even all of the Losties behind. I go back to Desmond's prediction that Charlie's actions would lead to Claire and Aaron being taken on board a helicopter. What if Jack and Kate took their seats, the helicopter took off promising to return, but it never did? Naomi's group could have sealed the Island off once again, or by the time the helicopter returned, Locke (and Jacob?) could have initiated an additional failsafe to keep the Island obscured.

If the former, perhaps Naomi's group (Widmore probably) offered to buy Jack and Kate's silence. In Kate's case, it was probably arranged to have her pardoned. Kate took advantage, while Jack has been cursing himself ever since.

I'm toying with the idea that the "flash forward" was actually a flash back in a "Groundhog Day" type scenario. I guess we'll all have to wait a while to get new answers ;)

To me, when the doctor called Jack a hero twice over he was refering to saving the boy and then going back for the mother. The doctor was giving Jack hero status for both the boy and the mother.

I think the man recognizes him as the "saviour" of the 815 flight. Jack obviously does not want to be known at all, thus the dirty and the grubby and the weird beard. No matter what the format is in the coming seasons, I think we will definitely find out that something hideous happened on the island. But the outside world will laud Jack as a hero despite this event.

"We weren't supposed to leave"



"You're not supposed to do this"

-John Locke

-Season Finale

I

Jack to Kate (last scene of the episode): "I'm sick of lying."

He then goes on to say, "We made a mistake."


Earlier in the episode, Jack tells the new head of surgery, "You have no idea what I've been through." Also, at some point (I don't think it was at the same time as the Jack quote, but it may have been) the new head of surgery says to Jack, "You're a hero twice."


I think this all ties back to, "I'm sick of lying."

First the questions. How is it that Kate is free? Jack's reaction to "You're a hero twice." looked to me like Jack didn't believe he was a hero, even once. (note to hysterics: I'm not saying Jack isn't a hero. I'm saying it looked to me, like HE didn't think he was a hero) We know why he might not feel heroic about the car wreck, but why wouldn't he feel his island deeds were heroic? Why would the new head of surgery, and for that matter, just about everyone else on the planet, have no idea what Jack (and all the other survivors) had been through? WE made a mistake? What joint mistake could they have made? Why is Jack sick of lying? And what is he lying about?

Surely the minute anyone hit civilization with flight 815 survivors, those survivors would have immediately become the hottest interview prospects around. They would be on Oprah, Leno, Larry King, all the newscasts and have more reporters following them around than Brangelina. Every person who ever picked up a magazine or newspaper or turned on a radio or television set would know, in agonizing detail, everything they had been through during their stay on the island.

Why don't they? Because Jack, and likely everyone else who made it back to civilization, is lying. They aren't saying what happened. They are being compelled to lie. They are telling some manufactured story about Jack the hero. I believe THAT is the mistake they made and it is driving Jack mad.

Who could do that? Who would have the power to compel them to lie? If it was just a person who said, "Hey, I'll get you back home if you promise not to talk.", I don't see Jack letting it drive him crazy. Surely he would talk. .


If you think about it ,it'd probably go like this ...............
interviewer:So Mr Sheppard what exactly happened on the island

Jack:Well first off there was the crash which we somehow survived then there were theese crazy mothers living in the jungle who kidnapped the kids in our group killed some of us kept some of us in cages ,and there was a crazy shark ,some poler bears and a big Smoke monster that flings people off trees like ragdolls,ooh and the island cures cancer and paralysis ,not to mention the under ground hatches where they do experiments and the invisible dude Locke seen/heard,and the whispers in the jungle as well as my dead dad walking about and crazy Dave in his slippers and dressing gown ,and of course there's the big four toed foot of a statue and the mentle french bird who's been there 16 years ,ooh yeah almost forgot about the old ship the Black Rock which was miles inland from the sea somehow.

interviewer:urm .....................................ok *on phone to mentle asylum* yeah come get this guy he's crazy as a s***house rat .

"You're not supposed to do this"

-John Locke

-Season Finale

Did Ms. Hawking say the exact same thing to Desmond in "Flashes Before Your Eyes"?

I would agree, except that he said "WE" made a mistake. That radio call was his mistake, not theirs. Now it is true that given the chance, that Kate or any of the others might have made the same mistake, but as it played out, they didn't. That call was all on Jack.

I think the "we" Jack refers to was possibly meant for the collective group that made it off the island. When the Dharma/Widmore/Hanso people arrive as a form of rescue, I'm sure every survivor of flight 815 was given a choice. They can go back to their former lives with heftier bank accounts and unlimited travel points, or they can take a bullet in the head. I'm guessing that most of the survivors were willing to keep their health in exchange for telling the Widmore/Dharma version of flight 815.

This is probably why Jack seemed so surprised that no one came to the viewing at the funeral home. In the flash forward Jack is dealing with the tragedy of his "leadership." He was a leader and he did get most of the survivors home, but the few that he did leave behind only emphasize the mistake that he made. The more I think about it it's really a perfect twist for the Jack story. He became a "man of faith" only after he left the island.

Excellent analysis, Sheba!


He then goes on to say, "We made a mistake."

It's possible this doesn't refer to the radio call (which IMO *was* a mistake), which as you correctly point out, was Jack's 100% reponsibility. It may refer to some other decision Jack made later, perhaps at the radio tower, perhaps when "rescue" actually came. That decision could have been one he made in conjunction with Kate.


Earlier in the episode, Jack tells the new head of surgery, "You have no idea what I've been through." Also, at some point (I don't think it was at the same time as the Jack quote, but it may have been) the new head of surgery says to Jack, "You're a hero twice."I thought there was a double meaning there as well. It *could* refer to Jack's rescue of both mother and son, but it could also refer to his former status as Island Survivor.

My daughter was jumping up and down about the Razor cell phone. (It went past me entirely.) If the phone is good for dating, and I think it is, that would give us at least three years since the supposed "rescue," putting the events of the flash-ahead in 2007. So Jack would have had plenty of time to deteriorate since whatever hoopla of their rescue.

A side note: Even if there *were* a media circus I wouldn't expect most people to remember the Losties as survivors after a lapse of almost 3 years. Most people forget about things very quickly once they pass out of the news cycle, and the news is always looking for some new fish to fry. Their story (after the initial media circus) would have gotten old pretty fast. So it's not surprising that Jack might not have been "recognized" by the doctor.
Plus there's Kate. Somebody had to have enough stroke to set her loose. That implies government, or at least someone powerful enough to have influence over government.You can't get around that point, I agree. Law enforcement does not forget its own, and Kate went onboard with an officer who didn't come back. Whoever sent him would want to know why - what happened to him, etc. Kate has a trail of legal breadcrumbs a mile wide, wherever she goes - so who cleaned that up, and how?

Just out of curiosity - did you get the impression that Jack was even actually practicing as a doctor anymore? Because to me it seemed as if he were pretty impaired.

My guess is Jack feels a tremendous amount of guilt over leaving some or maybe even all of the Losties behind. I go back to Desmond's prediction that Charlie's actions would lead to Claire and Aaron being taken on board a helicopter. What if Jack and Kate took their seats, the helicopter took off promising to return, but it never did? Naomi's group could have sealed the Island off once again, or by the time the helicopter returned, Locke (and Jacob?) could have initiated an additional failsafe to keep the Island obscured. I got that feeling too. Something really strange or bad must have happened on that island before they got rescued. In the episode they once more made it clear enough that Kate is someone who always wants to help, who "always has someone to go back to", even if it is dangerous. So I'm really wondering - if some of the Losties should still be there, why does she not want to go back? Or does she know that if they go back to the island that they might never get off again? Or did something really terrible happen to her (or someone else)?

There has to be a reason why he wants back on that island and an equaly good reason as to why Kate doesn't.

I like the alternet future theory. It works if they can remeber the past and know the present they are in isn't correct.

Maybe Jacks father is alive in that present. Jack knows he shouldn't be. Maybe Kate isn't wanted in that present and that is why she is willing to leave things alone.

Kate has a happy life now. Jack doesnt. And I also believe he needs to fix something back on the island. What is it? I have no idea yet.
And about the Alternate Future, well, I have a alternate timelines theory myself (that you can check out in my sig) and I'm gonna have to try to apply this whole flashforward thing to my theory to see if it works.

I think Hanso rescued them, then purged the others and has now restarted the operation. They made the survivors tell a fake story about being stranded on a nearby island so that the orginal island would remain a secret. They might have had to crash another plane in the area since Flight 815 was already found.
If the survivors had told the real story about a magic island that is invisible and can't be found then they would probably all be locked up in a mental hospital.

Jack looked to me like a Vietnam Veteran. Totally messed up, forgotten by his government, post-traumatic stress out the wazoo. I just wonder what the hell happened that was so bad!

Here's the thing about the lie. Not once did someone mention the crash at all in the FF. like it was some secret. Maybe they lied about being the only two who survived Oceanic 815, and didn't mention the island and what happened at all. I gree with the part of Kate being offered a complete pardon for her silence. Mr Widmore seems like a pretty powerful guy not to mention rich, he seems like the type of guy that can make things happen. I think that Naomi wasn't working for Penny, but her father, and that is why she had no clue about it.

I'm not sure about Kate being happy. It could be that she was distraught over seeing Jack like he was, but I think that her demeanor was more that she wished going back would change something. I think she felt it was useless. Obviously just guessing here. :)

excelent op. Maybe they had to agree that
1) they were never in the plane that crashed (they never took flight 815)
2) they spent three months bumming somewhere, not in an island noone can find.
3) they never heard of Dharma.

In exchange they got their lives back (sort of), Kate got a new ID (so did Michael, apparently, if he is the one in the coffin).
but knowing that the island is at the hands of the other others (widmore, more likely), is killing Jack. He must go back ad save the island.

Remember last season's finale- they were tied up on the dock- that look that Kate and Jack gave each other? There could be more going on here than just a decision to get off the island, it may be deeper and more complicated than that.

I was trying to discern what Dharma/Widmore/Hanso would have to offer Jack that would convince him to "lie" about the crash. He was obsessed with getting "his people" off the island, but it was clear that he was also hell bent on humiliating Ben and showing him that he couldn't get away with everything that the Others had done (this is a rather illogical and irrational need, that stems from his love/disgust for his father).

So, aside from offering the survivors of flight 815 a free ride home the only thing Dharma could give Jack, that he wants, is... Christian Shepard. The island has already healed multiple people and as far as we know Christian did die from internal organ failures of some kind (heart attack? liver?), so it's not that far of stretch to say that Christian walked out of his own coffin. This turn of events would certainly turn Jack's world upside down and present him with a choice similar to Locke's during "The Brig." Does Jack convince everyone to take the "rescue deal" and try at start over with his father? I think he does and it is this experience that makes him a "believer in the island," like Locke.

I think Jack agrees to "lie" about flight 815 and the island much for the same reason he made the "submarine deal" with Ben, it was what he thought was best for the group at the time. He probably thought that once they got to safety they would be able to find the island again, but as we see in the flash-forward he finds that it's almost like the island never existed.

Damon said if Jack's plan was successful it would have serious repercussions for Jack and boy he wasn't kidding was he? But why? What is happening to Jack back in the real world that is driving him crazy? It would have to be something pretty awful to drive Jack to the point he's at. More hideous than anything he experienced on that island. His resolve was always strong. He never quit and was stubborn to a fault so what could be so awful that he's lost the will to live?

It's hard to imagine any scenario where Jack was one of the first on the rescue helicopter and everyone got left behind because it would be completely OOC for Jack not to stubbornly refuse to leave until everyone else was gone.

It's hard to imagine any scenario where Jack was one of the first on the rescue helicopter and everyone got left behind because it would be completely OOC for Jack not to stubbornly refuse to leave until everyone else was gone.

Except that Jack was ready to board to board the super sub ... He reasoned to Kate it was the best chance to get everyone rescued. Does he have a reason to think that's not still true? Does he have any idea that if he leaves the island he won't be able to get back to the rest of the survivors?

Jack and Kate may be the only survivors of "I Know What You Did On The Island Last Summer"

Damon said if Jack's plan was successful it would have serious repercussions for Jack and boy he wasn't kidding was he? But why? What is happening to Jack back in the real world that is driving him crazy? It would have to be something pretty awful to drive Jack to the point he's at. More hideous than anything he experienced on that island. His resolve was always strong. He never quit and was stubborn to a fault so what could be so awful that he's lost the will to live?

It's hard to imagine any scenario where Jack was one of the first on the rescue helicopter and everyone got left behind because it would be completely OOC for Jack not to stubbornly refuse to leave until everyone else was gone.

I can imagine one scenerio where Jack and Kate are "first" off the island.

Sun has died from being Pregnant....Kate is pregnant...and Jack is offered a deal to get her off the island before she dies.

I think its possible that he loves her enough to put her well being above the other losties.

cheers

Except that Jack was ready to board to board the super sub ... He reasoned to Kate it was the best chance to get everyone rescued. Does he have a reason to think that's not still true? Does he have any idea that if he leaves the island he won't be able to get back to the rest of the survivors?



Completely different scenario. He had no choice about allowing everyone else to go first. He was taking a chance at rescue. I just don't think he'd leave until the rest were gone, not in a scenario where everyone gets to go, unless like someone mentioned he did it to save Kate's life.

That scene intensely reminded me of the end of Watchmen, though Jack doesn't seem the Rorschach type; it's more likely their lie was for their own personal gain (escaping the Island) and the Greater Good would involve telling the truth at their own expense.

It's very unlikely that we have seen "the mistake," as that seems to have replaced "can we escape the Island" as the climax and central mystery of the show (though the two do seem to be interconnected, as many other posters have mentioned). The two bits of information we are left hanging with at the end of the last on-Island scene are "Who was Naomi working for, if not Penny?" and "What does Ben know about them that is worth withholding from everyone, including his underlings?" The answers to these questions must be tied into the choice the Losties make in regards to coming back to the real world, and why they have to lie about it. They're obviously not fully informed themselves, possibly as per the conditions of their rescue. Otherwise, Jack wouldn't fill his apartment with maps or take transpacific flights every week, trying to find the Island again.

Obviously, Jack feels that he made the wrong choice, and that choice has some serious consequences. However, that Jack wants to return to the Island suggests those consequences have not yet occurred, and the choice might somehow be undone. With Desmond's future-sight, Locke's comment's about what Jack is "supposed to do," and the Valenzetti equation's prediction of the end of the world, it could be that some of the Losties were presented with a vision of the future where their being on the Island somehow averts catastrophe, but chose to escape instead. Perhaps this was Ben's goal all along, and Jack's distrust of him informs his decision to leave. The death Jack reads about on the plane could signal that Ben was telling the truth. The future-sight motif really ties the fate v. free will theme back into Watchmen, too.

Somehow I got the feeling that Kate and Jack have lived this many times before. Like Desmond, they can change certain things in the sequence each time, but can never really get it right. They likely "forget" this history every time they go back to the island, much as souls who are reincarnated after their time in the bardo (sort of a cosmic waiting room) forget who they are. Of course, that may be overly complicated, and the scene is just what it seems.

I too am not so sure about Kate being happy. She is with some sort of controlling man (or someone suggested boy)--"he'll wonder where I am." She meets Jack in the dark, in the back of the airport parking lot. It seems to be a regular meeting place for them. Why can't she be open about seeing him? Also, she's wearing a freakish amount of makeup. Kate seems--resigned. And there's a real lack of affect; she shows little affection for Jack (admittedly, Jack can be extremely tiring) and none at all for the mysterious deceased.

this is an excellent post! I kept thinking about that line last night -- why does jack have to lie? and clearly the lying is taking a lot out of him.

what bothered me the most was the maps. i thought about it last night for a while - if the losties are in fact rescued by somebody, then the island, one would assume, has a location that someone can get to. yet the survivors are not being told of this location, otherwise jack could just "go" there, or at the very least, he wouldn't be obsessing over various maps. whoever rescues them does not want them to go back and maybe even wants them to lie about where they have been, perhaps?

My theory:
Some of the losties got off the island, and some did not, and not by choice. Those that did leave, feel remorse for not everyone getting off the island.
Jack has maps all over, and is obviously trying to find the island to get back.
I think those that got off made up a story as to why they were the only survivors-
Hence, he is sick of lying.

What I think went down after Jack reached Naomi's ship by phone:

I think Desmond hustles back to shore and use the walkietalky that Hurley has to call Jack and tell him Charlie's revelation about Naomi being a liar. (I think the entire thing about 815 being found with dead bodies was clearly a lie.) Jack is stunned and now realizes that Locke and Ben were right. They need a place to hide and Ben offers up the temple that Richard Alpert and the remaining Others were heading to. (This may be near the four toed statue we saw in the season two finale.)

Meanwhile, Naomi's team can now see and lock onto the cellphone's signal and they head for the island. I think they are either the 2007 version of the Dharma Initiative or similiarlly-setup corporate rivals who want to rape the island for medical research and natural resources. They very well may kill anybody they encounter so that no one else will find the island, so that they can have all of the profit. This harvesting may kill or threaten the island's life or energy, which is why I believe Ben is so worried about this development. From this perspective, Ben and the Others would be "the good guys" as he insists.

Whatever the case, I think the rest of the island storyline will be the survivors and the others forced to work together to evade and ward off this malacious corporate interest. I think there's a fair chance that the Widemore Corporation might show up at some point with Penny leading the way because the island is seemingly visible or scannable now. (I will point out that Desmond only assumed the helicopters were rescuing Claire. It's possible the helicopters were transporting her to a place to be interogated and killed.)

I see a few possibilities for what happens to put Jack in the place that he is now:

-Eventually, Naomi's people offer Jack a deal. If he'll sell out his people and the island, they'll give him, Kate and maybe a few others safe passage back to society. The only catch is that he can't tell anyone about what really happened or that there are other survivors. Naomi's people probably throw them on a rescue raft or another island to be discovered. This makes sense because Jack in the flashfoward can't get back to the island. If there was a large scale rescue operation with governments leading it, they would have obviously located the island and Jack would have been able to get back to it without having to fly around hoping for a plane crash. I can't see Jack making such a deal, but we don't know what's to come and what they are facing. It would explain what him and Kate have been lying about.
-Jack once said he took flying lessons (it was a throwaway line, but the showrunners do nothing by accident.) Juliet just said they were building a runway. It is possible that Jack flew a group of the survivors off the island and promised he'd return for the rest. But he can't find the island to get back. And it's haunting him.
-They all get off the island thanks to Penelope. But many of them are sick and dying.

Now Jack wants to get back to the island for one of two reasons:
-he and other people who did get off the island have now have sometype of madness from post-island withdrawal. I can't see it.
-He left many of the survivors there to fend for themselves.

Ultimately, I think the show may rotate between flashbacks and fastfowards. I mean there are many characters (Rousseau for example) who haven't had flashbacks yet and I can't see the show abandoning them completely.

I think eventually the flashfowards and the island action will merge and Jack will convince Kate that they need to go back to the island. One of way of getting back there would be to find Michael who was given that special bearing by Ben in the season two finale. This would also allow them to reintroduce Walt by having him play the 2007 version of himself. That will probably be in the last season.

Be nice I'm a newb, but I think I get what flash forward Jack meant when he said to Kate "I'm tired of lying".

At one point in the flash forward, I believe it was Jack's ex-wife said something about pulling people from fiery wreckage again.

I believe that in the flash forward world at least some of the losties were rescued from the island but for some reason and some way it was set up to look like Jack rescued them. Hence the "tired of lying", pulling people from fiery wreckage again, and the flash forward doctor saying "you're a hero twice over"

I think it's more likely that whatever happened in between the phone call, and jack sitting on the airplane in the first scene of the finale - involved Jack and Kate - and only Jack and Kate - lying to officials in some capacity post rescue.

There may not be much island action for awhile. It could very well be flashbacks to the island for awhile or as others have said vice versa, both getting equal amounts of screen time depending on the story that needed to be told.

CF

Jack looked to me like a Vietnam Veteran. Totally messed up, forgotten by his government, post-traumatic stress out the wazoo. I just wonder what the hell happened that was so bad!
That has haunted me since last night too. He looks like Sawyer's been looking since Sawyer met up with Cooper at the Black Rock. He's positively haunted by what happened and can't seem to get it out of his mind. I think Kate's expression said a lot that she's been over and over this with him and she's just tired and wants to get on with her life.

I'm not sure about Kate being happy. It could be that she was distraught over seeing Jack like he was, but I think that her demeanor was more that she wished going back would change something. I think she felt it was useless. Obviously just guessing here. :)
I think she's thinking there's no point. They'll never find the Island again OR there's nothing they could do if they did go back. Since she's wired to go back (reference Sawyer's remark about there always being someone or somehting to go back for), this tells me that she's run all the scenarios in her head and knows that they won't be changing anything if they do find the Island.

Damon said if Jack's plan was successful it would have serious repercussions for Jack and boy he wasn't kidding was he? But why? What is happening to Jack back in the real world that is driving him crazy? It would have to be something pretty awful to drive Jack to the point he's at. More hideous than anything he experienced on that island. His resolve was always strong. He never quit and was stubborn to a fault so what could be so awful that he's lost the will to live?

It's hard to imagine any scenario where Jack was one of the first on the rescue helicopter and everyone got left behind because it would be completely OOC for Jack not to stubbornly refuse to leave until everyone else was gone.
It would totally our of character for Jack to get on the chopper first.

I've wondered if they had to leave the beachies and that's why there was no Juliet, Hurley, Sayid to turn to. :shrug:

It seems that Jack and Kate got rescued/escaped from the island, Him (Sawyer perhaps), and possibly whoever is in the casket also got rescued. The person who died could be someone we know still on the island, Michael, or someone we haven't met yet.

And what are 2-4 lone survivors of a plane crash where all of the bodies have been found (*actually Naomi could be lying*) suppsoed to say when they're rescued?

Jack and Kate would have gone thinking they could find the island and tell people about it, but everyone just thouhgt they were crazy because it can't be found. Seems Penelope might not be around then... CRAZINESS :biggrin:

I think it could be Michael dead, he couldn't deal with the fact that he left everyone and possibly something happened to Walt. He died and the other people that knew him didn't care enough or couldn't deal with going to his viewing.

There may not be much island action for awhile. It could very well be flashbacks to the island for awhile or as others have said vice versa, both getting equal amounts of screen time depending on the story that needed to be told.

CF

I dont think so. I dont think it will be so simple for them just to leave. Once the "boaties" come, I think it will be a surprise to the losties. I dont know what it will be, but I cannot forsee everyone leaving the island.
We still have plenty of island to explore, and lots of DHARMA questions to answer yet. If lost turned out to be a soap opera of everyone back in the real world, the show would tank overnight.

They could go a million ways with how they've ended the finale.

You could now focus the show around the characters (those that are left), having "lost" themselves, their true selves, upon returning to the real world. Jack may be the only one to realize the whole time, possibly only a few weeks or months after being rescued, that they were all where they were *meant* to be when they were on that island.

However, we've been shown, very clearly, that the activities being conducted that involve the island are spread out all over the world. They don't HAVE to find the island again, just yet, to get back into the swing of things. Besides, it would be just EPIC for Jack to finally find a lead, and to see him chop off the beard and return to Hero Jack.

The problem here is that the island is the core establishing theme of the ENTIRE show. Leaving the island out of the picture (meaning you're not there, seeing the beach, and the jungle, and so forth) for any amount of noticeable time would make it feel like it wasn't Lost. It would feel like "Lost II". And that would throw a LOT of people away from the show.

There has to be a reason why he wants back on that island and an equaly good reason as to why Kate doesn't.

I like the alternet future theory. It works if they can remeber the past and know the present they are in isn't correct.

Maybe Jacks father is alive in that present. Jack knows he shouldn't be. Maybe Kate isn't wanted in that present and that is why she is willing to leave things alone.

I think this is key! Great thought. It must be important that Jack DOES want to go back and Kate doesn't...What a great idea that the present is altered and kate is happy with the alteration and Jack isn't. I really think it isn't just the physical island that Jack wants to return to, I think it is the TIME of the island as it was. They are probably all in time loops and need to be in the correct loop to have their life as they want it. They leave too early when they are "rescued" to straighten out their timelines.

How do you explain Jack's discussion about his father in this?

I've been convinced for a long time that Jack, Kate, and most of the familiar "lost" characters had been living lies, many of them for years, before and all thru the island time, that the whole island thing was an act, and that they would continue the act as they re-integrated into society -- some in the same phony roles they'd been living pre-island, others having "died" and assumed new identities. This episode did nothing to dissuade me from that conclusion.

That scene intensely reminded me of the end of Watchmen,
Reminded me even more of the beginning of Watchmen, as in, "The Comedian is dead." At this point it doesn't much matter to me which of the figures is supposed to be in that coffin; Jack is just satisfied nobody came to look at the body! The Dharma Initiative acquired a lot of generic corpses to substitute for "dead" people.

Robert

I was thinking the lying might be part of a Dharma/Hanso/Widmore conspiracy and a Nondisclosure Agreement about the island or something. They can't tell what they saw there concerning Dharma or Hatches or smoke monsters etc. They just have to pretend that didn't happen. I could be wrong.

I assumed that it was "tired of lying to himself" about the choice to get off the Island. He knew that it was wrong when he left but has been trying to convince himself that Locke wasn't right.

I also think that Jack was tired of lying to himself. I think that in order to escape the island, Jack and Kate had to leave other people that they cared about behind. They lied to themselves in order to justify and live with their actions. Kate is an old pro at this and she can't understand why Jack can't handle it. But this is new territory for him and being called "a hero" just seems like a slap in the face considering his guilty conscience.

I assumed that it was "tired of lying to himself" about the choice to get off the Island. He knew that it was wrong when he left but has been trying to convince himself that Locke wasn't right.
EXACTLY what i was thinking too.

I dont think so. I dont think it will be so simple for them just to leave. Once the "boaties" come, I think it will be a surprise to the losties. I dont know what it will be, but I cannot forsee everyone leaving the island.
We still have plenty of island to explore, and lots of DHARMA questions to answer yet. If lost turned out to be a soap opera of everyone back in the real world, the show would tank overnight.

No, I think that them leaving will be a mistake, an accident. I think that only a few will get in a helicopter thinking it's rescue, such as Jack, Kate, Claire and Baby Aaron, maybe even Ben against his own free will. Then they will get a message from Hurley saying that Des is back and it isn't Penny's boat. It could very well be that Ben, Jack and Kate get off the island. Ben doesn't want to, but Jack makes him. I am only bringing up the possibility of Ben being on the plane because of the coffin scene with Jack and no one else.

I totally agree that they can't just leave questions unanswered and that the island still remains a question, but I do have a feeling that we may be seeing the future again in Season 4. Maybe just a flashforward to Jack and a Flashback to island or...who KNOWS!

No, I think that them leaving will be a mistake, an accident. I think that only a few will get in a helicopter thinking it's rescue, such as Jack, Kate, Claire and Baby Aaron, maybe even Ben against his own free will. Then they will get a message from Hurley saying that Des is back and it isn't Penny's boat. It could very well be that Ben, Jack and Kate get off the island. Ben doesn't want to, but Jack makes him. I am only bringing up the possibility of Ben being on the plane because of the coffin scene with Jack and no one else.


That doesn't sound all that bad.

Remember last season's finale- they were tied up on the dock- that look that Kate and Jack gave each other? There could be more going on here than just a decision to get off the island, it may be deeper and more complicated than that.Hmm. Like maybe the flashforward is what would have happened had they made a deal with the Others back at the Hydra?
100%
The problem here is that the island is the core establishing theme of the ENTIRE show. Leaving the island out of the picture (meaning you're not there, seeing the beach, and the jungle, and so forth) for any amount of noticeable time would make it feel like it wasn't Lost.That's what I think, too. With three seasons left, it seems way too early to start the "AfterLost" spin-off series...

I assumed that it was "tired of lying to himself" about the choice to get off the Island. He knew that it was wrong when he left but has been trying to convince himself that Locke wasn't right.

EXACTLY what i was thinking too.

I guess that makes three of us.

This is a really good thread with lots of fascinating and plausible theories. Here's my thinking at this point, which has a lot in common with the ideas of gf2020.

Maybe Des gets word to the Losties that the boat isn't from Penny, but the boat is already on its way. The losties decide to hide from the bad boat people, Ben leads them off somewhere but some of them decide to take their chances with the boat people, especially since the boat people already know there are 815 survivors on the island. Jack and Kate volunteer to face the boat people (This would be noble bravery rather than self-interest). Maybe Jin and Sun, too, want to try for a rescue, given her situation, and Claire and Aaron. Perhaps they can pretend they were the only losties there and help the other losties avoid detection. Or perhaps they make a deal that the boat people will let the others live in peace on the island if the ones who leave agree to lie about their experiences. Or maybe they're tricked into leaving, or forced to leave to save the rest of the losties' lives. I don't see Jack voluntarily leaving anyone behind unless there is some sort of extenuating circumstance. Perhaps the boat people think that by removing Jack and Kate, they are taking away the effective leaders of the losties and the remaining ones won't be a threat.

For some reason I'm thinking that Sawyer, who hates himself again and once more shuns other people, may opt to stay on the island. He has some atoning to do, I think. Fighting a guerilla war against the boat people might do the trick. On the other hand, seeing him back in the world might be a pretty good story.

I think there have to be enough losties who leave the island that there will be some interesting stories to tell about their lives back in the world, but enough who stay that we can continue to learn about the island's mysteries and have some more us vs. them action on the island, only now it's Ben and whoever's left of his group along with the remaining losties against the "them" of the boat people--darma or whoever they are.

One problem with this is the time frame. If Jack and Kate leave at the end of 2004 and the flash forward is the present (which I think it is, thanks to the Krzr phone), are we going to flash to two and a half years of story in between? I'm not sure watching every detail of Jack's decline is going to be too fascinating. In fact, if he does convince Kate to try to go back to the island (and if she's made a deal to have her criminal past erased in exchange for her silence, she would be risking more than he is by going back), he's going to have to spend some time getting clean before he embarks on his quest. Not sure how fascinating that would be either.

I do like the idea of parallel quests, though, some on the island (Locke, Sawyer), some off (Jack, Kate). And they'll converge at some point--the final season?

Not sure how all this fits in with the time line of TLE. Seems like even if TLE isn't necessary to understand Lost, the two shouldn't contradict each other.

IMO, this was the most interesting and telling bit of dialog in the entire episode. It lends its self to lots of explanation, with minimal reading into it.

I have to disagree. That bit of information could be interpreted in a myriad of ways, and we have little to work with to understand it. Of course, speculation is part of the fun of Lost, and it was enjoyable reading the various ideas in the thread.

My feeling is that they have found themselves in an alternate time line (which Jack isn't enjoying), that they left some Losties behind, that they have left the island's power in the hands of a nefarious group, or a combination of these. But these are just shots in the dark--not too much info to go on right now.

I guess that makes three of us.

Count that as four.

I don 't think Jack is upset because he left people behind, he clearly has a disregard for other people when he says that he doesn't care about the other passengers as he's flying around, he just wants to crash again. Something made him change his thinking. He was so sure on the island, now he's equally as sure that he was wrong. His having no one leads to the conclusion that Juliet either didn't get off the island, died, or just left Jack, either way none of the choices would lead to a Happy Jack.

I don't think it's a heroic motive, that Jack wants to get back to rescue some Losties who were left behind. Jack is totally self centered at this point, with the exception of obviously still caring for Kate. When he talks to her saying it was a mistake, I think he's talking about the choice to leave the island. I think he's come to realize what John Locke had said, "You're not supposed to do this". He understands now that his mistake has cost him more personally than he could have ever known when he took the sat phone and talked to the boat. He can see clearly now that he was meant to stay on the island, to become a leader, to save the world, who knows why, he just knows he was supposed to stay there. He's not looking to save anyone, except himself, and maybe Kate.

I always like looking at the parallels between the flashback(forward) and island time. In this case, Jack finally tells Kate that he loves her, and that he told her not to come back to get him in order to keep her safe. I think she basically did the same thing when she went to live in SoCal with "him". She still loves him, but won't return his calls, or come see him because he's safer without her. Of course, when he's hit rock bottom it could also be she doesn't like who he's become. Same thing kind of applies when Kate sees Jack and Juliet kiss on the island, then off island, Kate is with someone else.

I think the coffin was Locke's. Maybe under an alias (wouldn't it be appropriate if some Losties had to live under an Alias.... heh) but that was why Jack showed up. His way of saying "John, you were right. I made a mistake. I wasn't supposed to do that." And it would also explain why Kate, who wanted off the island, hated Locke for, at least, trying to keep them there.

Kate could be a free woman because she did make good on her attempt to steal another person's identity, like she tried to do when she was going to be on the raft. And if she is hooked up with Sawyer, I'm sure he could help her maintain an Alias. Maybe her name is Annie again....

Ok, that's enough, energy drink is wearing off..

I posted else where about this I didn't see this post because search wasn't working, but i think that Jack and Kate may have been the only one's off the Island and they would only be free if they didn't talk about it.

Jack doing the surgery for Kate's (and by proxy Sawyer's) benefit may have been foreshadowing of a devil's deal Jack makes later to leave the island so that a pregnant Kate can get off the island before she dies. Kate could even love Jack but they are kept apart because she has a child with Sawyer ("him")

Jack to Kate (last scene of the episode): "I'm sick of lying."

He then goes on to say, "We made a mistake."

IMO, this was the most interesting and telling bit of dialog in the entire episode. It lends its self to lots of explanation, with minimal reading into it.

i agree. that is the most intriguing bit of dialogue. i hope they do finally give us all the info that we need that leads up to his statement. i want to KNOW why he feels that way, so much must have happened to drive him to that point in his life.

pssst. hope this helps to get the subject back on track.

I posted else where about this I didn't see this post because search wasn't working, but i think that Jack and Kate may have been the only one's off the Island and they would only be free if they didn't talk about it.
I'll take that idea even further...It was actually just Jack who got rescued. The rest were all left behind. Kate was like a Dave for a very delusional Jack.

I'll take that idea even further...It was actually just Jack who got rescued. The rest were all left behind. Kate was like a Dave for a very delusional Jack.

I like that. I like that, a LOT. Way to think outside the box. :)

I definantly agree that there would hardly be anyone off of the island. Kate, Jack, and maybe Ben. If Ben was in the coffin then I could understand why Jack is so torn up about it.

All of this is just a thought. Jack may have forced Ben off the island, away from his home and forced him to live as a "Stranger in a Strange Land". Jack starts to experience his own self alienation because he is lying and the sees that Ben dies, maybe from cancer. Jack goes to his funeral because he feels so guilty. He feels guilty because Ben died and no one is at his funeral because everyone he knew or even cared about was on the island. Jack hoped that Kate would show, but she may be having some type of an affair with the parol officer so that he would keep his mouth shut or she may be living with her dad in hiding. Jack is so full of guilt because his friends are still on the island and he needs to help them. He is back home and they are still out there fighting to surive. Jack can't live with himself.

This is all what could happen. I do have a problem though with the fact that Kate seems so hard about not going back. I did see a tear, but you would think she would feel VERY guilty.

I like that. I like that, a LOT. Way to think outside the box. :)
Thank you!

Maybe you are gonna be interested in reading the whole theory here:

http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=81387

Thank you!

Maybe you are gonna be interested in reading the whole theory here:

http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=81387

Thanks! I don't have time to read it now, but I bookmarked it for later. :)

a friend and I had an interesting conversation about that final scene... not so much what it literally meant, but rather the symbolism of it all... as the audience, we got a glimpse of "the end", of life AFTER the island and after LOST - and it is a grim reality... like waking up two years after you graduated from college and realizing you just want to go back, the whole time you were just waiting to enter "the real world" and now you'd give anything to go back, like we didn't know how good we had it...

whatever the literal plot realities of that final scene, I think it was more of a message from the writers to the true fans - "enjoy this crazy frustrating ride while you can, cause in three years it will all be over and all you'll be left with is a LOST addiction you can never get refills for, loneliness from pushing all your simple-minded "24"-watching friends away, and a hopeless desperation to get back to the time and place where you didn't have a clue what Smoky and Jacob really were!"

more than what was happening, it left me with a feeling, I've never really connected to Jack, I'm a Skater (and they had amazing development individually and separately), but this episode made me see that he is the main character because he is like the audience, a scientific skeptic who either wants to figure it all out like yesterday or just get back home... wherever he is, he isn't there, he wants to be somewhere else, he is our culture - unsure, unsettled, and wandering... worst of all he finally figured out where and what he should be but he "made the boat" and he really should have "missed" it

just some thoughts and feelings

In the final scene with Jack and Kate, Jack says to Kate "I'm sick.. of lying". I may be reading to much into this, but with the pause after sick, it made me think back to "the sickness". Maybe Danielle's crew were all lying about something, and that's why she killed them. She definitely seems to know a thing or two about liars, she knew Ben was lying from the start.

a friend and I had an interesting conversation about that final scene... not so much what it literally meant, but rather the symbolism of it all... as the audience, we got a glimpse of "the end", of life AFTER the island and after LOST - and it is a grim reality... like waking up two years after you graduated from college and realizing you just want to go back, the whole time you were just waiting to enter "the real world" and now you'd give anything to go back, like we didn't know how good we had it...

whatever the literal plot realities of that final scene, I think it was more of a message from the writers to the true fans - "enjoy this crazy frustrating ride while you can, cause in three years it will all be over and all you'll be left with is a LOST addiction you can never get refills for, loneliness from pushing all your simple-minded "24"-watching friends away, and a hopeless desperation to get back to the time and place where you didn't have a clue what Smoky and Jacob really were!"

more than what was happening, it left me with a feeling, I've never really connected to Jack, I'm a Skater (and they had amazing development individually and separately), but this episode made me see that he is the main character because he is like the audience, a scientific skeptic who either wants to figure it all out like yesterday or just get back home... wherever he is, he isn't there, he wants to be somewhere else, he is our culture - unsure, unsettled, and wandering... worst of all he finally figured out where and what he should be but he "made the boat" and he really should have "missed" it

just some thoughts and feelings

This is very well put. I felt that connection with Jack as well. I didn't realize it before reading this post, but not that I think about it, I like Jack again. After he was with the Others that week that we didn't see him, I HATED HIM! He was the biggest !%$$*%# on television. Now, those final moments of the finale, I realized that he was trying. He was trying his very best, but he failed.

I like this thread a lot, losts of good ideas, and all very relavent,. The one thing that keeps coming back to me that hasn't really been discussed, so far as I can see, at least in this thread, is that,"flash forward," implies that Jack was on some level aware of this outcome as the events of the S4 finale on the island were unfolding. I know there are many theories on alternate timelines, many of which I have whole heartedly supported. This episode has left me thinking more about how both eastern religions and quantum physics view time as a basic convention that helps our simple minds organize reality. In others words, that past and future only exist as a matter of convience,

While this theory is at this point half baked at best, it seems to me, that this episode suggests that Jack could on some level know the future, and, "flash forward," just as our losties have been "flashing back" for 3 seasons, and that this knowledge will effect his actions now.

Sorry if this was better posted on a thread that I have not yet seen.

Jack: "I'm sick....of lying. We made a mistake."

Kate: "I have to go. He's going to be wondering where I am."

Jack: "We were not supposed to leave."


I'm confused about the whole show!

this is my first post, so i apologize if this has already been addressed. What do you think jack was talking about when he said to kate "i'm sick of lying"? obviously it is the way they were able to get off the island, and why he is such a mess...... any thoughts:)

this is my first post, so i apologize if this has already been addressed. What do you think jack was talking about when he said to kate "i'm sick of lying"? obviously it is the way they were able to get off the island, and why he is such a mess...... any thoughts

I believe that Jack , and Kate was sent back civilization without anyone knowing the truth about the crash, the island, or where they been. I think Jack and Kate was given a "Do Over", and they are forbidden from talking about the crash of flight 815, the island and the people they left behind. The Golden ticket , reminds me of the "Golden Ticket" given to the kids in "Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory". In Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory" the kids were allow to tour the factory, but was not allow to mention what goes on inside the factory.

Just like the kids in "Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory", Jack and Kate were probably told to keep a secret about everything that happen on the island.

Interesting considering the fact that Ben was the one who used to lie...maybe he was/is like Jack...he can't tell the truth....because????

I don't think it's so much about how they got OFF the island as it is what happened ON the island (a lot of which we don't know yet).

I'm guessing its the same type of lying that Ben said Michael would do when (if?) he got back to civilization to cover the fact that Michael killed two people in cold blood...

That is my guess is Jack is lying about something that would destroy him in the real world but keeping that lie is destroying his sanity...

I'm guessing the 'lying' remark refers to whatever Jack does that gets them off the island; something is going to go terribly wrong, that's for sure. In exchange for their Golden Tickets, and their freedom, the two if them have to keep up a front about where teh island is and what happened there.

Obviously, Jack and Kate are not the only two who make it off the island. SO... whatever happened on the island that got them to leave, Jack (and Kate, etc.) feels guilt, and they need to go back. I, too, believe that Naomi's people took over the island. I'd be sick if Jack had to kill a few people to leave. And maybe another reason Jack wants to go back is because he knows that Locke was right about the island and everything in it.

Hmm, there are some great thoughts in here. Got me thinking on a whole other level. Someone suggested, as has been theorized elsewhere, that Jack's flashforwards are perhaps glimpses of the future, much akin to Desmond's abilities. To many "Jaters" this glimpse of the future was rather depressing, not just cuz Jack was a mess (which is more tragic) but because they were not together, and quite disconnected, emotionally, from one another.

So yeah, maybe this isn't what happens. Maybe Jack, throughout the season finale was having these flashes, and there, in the last scene when Minkowski says "Hell yeah!" Jack realized that life after the island is miserable, and somebody's in a coffin, and he's not with Kate, who's with whomever.

So...this lead me to believe that these FF's are not carved in stone. That S4 will start with Jack giving his head a shake, snaps out of it, and, I dunno, goes to war with the boat people in order to actually change the future, ala Desmond with Charlie. Little does he realize, he cant...or can he?

Wow, this idea sucks.:eek2: *hic*

As of right now, I've been taking the FF for face-value. Jack's future looks lousy and I don't think there will be any "do-overs" to fix things. I wouldn't mind seeing more FF's in S4 showing a little off-island drama. It's been mentioned on the board that maybe we'll see Jack clean-up his act in preparation to make his way back to the island. The on-island drama is much more important to me....but a mixture would be okay in my book.

Yeah, I agree. It's all about the on-island drama. I too have taken it all at face value, but the more times I watch the show, the more I begin to consider other alternatives. I still prefer to keep myself grounded in what seems most plausible, but as has been pointed out before, you just never know with LOST.

What seems most plausible is not ever what happens on Lost. I can't believe that they have shown us the end of Lost already. I know there are alot more other Losties to find out about, but I just don't think THAT is how Jack or Kate will end up. We've already been shown that there is something going on with time travel and changing fate, etc. So why is it so hard to believe that it will happen again with Jack and Kate? There is absolutely no way they are going to have the hero of Lost end up a complete train wreck. No Way! Somehow and some way he is going to convince Kate to go back to the island with him and change whatever happened and make things right. And I am curious to see what else went so wrong and how going back does change everything for the better.

After everything they've been through so far, I just can't believe they will make Jack end up a freakin' suicidal drunk, and Kate afraid of her own shadow. They are the two strongest people on the island, and I just think there is something else in store for them. I do want to see how they got where they are in the FF, but I also can't wait to see how they change it.

No matter what, it's going to be a crazy ride.

DL

Im thinking that whoever was on that boat basically paid them all ALOT of money to be quiet about the island. Also they gave them new identities and that is why kate is not in jail. Everyone on the earth thinks that they are still dead.

After the final I felt like most of the losties did not make it off the island. That the few that did make it were put into a type of witness protection system. New names new identities. If Dharma or the bioscience group has the resources to make people disappear and not raise any flags then they would be able to reassign people back into society. Jack is tired of lying about who he is. IT would explain why he still has a dad alive and why Kate is a free person.

Im thinking that whoever was on that boat basically paid them all ALOT of money to be quiet about the island. Also they gave them new identities and that is why kate is not in jail. Everyone on the earth thinks that they are still dead.


Either they were paid alot of money or they were threatened by Dharma or Whidmore, can't tell yet. I think they were threatened that if they tell anyone about the island or what happened they, or their family members or people they care about, would be killed. I don't think the people on the boat give a crap if they have any money or not, they just want them to keep quiet - at any price. Jack is not lying about who he is because they did not give Jack a new identity because he was back working at the hospital and he was all over the news for pulling the lady and her son out of the wreck on the bridge. Maybe that's what they offered Kate for her silence- her freedom. If she doesn't say a word about them or what happend, then they make all her crimes just go away. That's why I think she was so scared in the FF.

If the FF is the ending, you won't know it until 3 years from now. Suspense is still there. Another show, Babylon 5, actually did show one of the major end points in the first season. They showed the B5 space station blowing up in a vision. The show went on for five years with the station in peril and nearly being destroyed many times. It wasn't until the final episode that it was done. So fans of the show knew it would be destroyed, but it was the why and how that kept the audience in suspense. I can see Lost doing the same thing. I absolutely think Lost would have the hero end up a sucidial drunk especially after Damon's column about Harry Potter. Having Jack get clean, and convince his sidekick Kate to go back to the island and change something, wouldn't seem to follow what he was saying in his colulmn. From the flashforward it seemed to me that it was Jack that wanted to go back, not Kate. He is blaming himself, racked with guilty, not Kate imo. If they had to leave people behind, there is no way that Kate, who has a big hero streak herself, wouldn't want to go back. As far I can see, Jack is the one with the messed up life. I didn't get the impression that Kate is scared. She seems pretty well off, and is with someone who would be worried about her leaving in the middle of the night to meet with someone in the state Jack was in.

I also consider the source of the "we have to go back". Jack is clearly unstable, under the influence of alcohol and drugs and is flying out every weekend in hopes that the plane crashes on a island that no one has been able to find. (This is not me bashing Jack, just how I see him in the flashforward)

I think it fits Damon's quote that the ending will be bittersweet if ther hero did find a way for rescue, and most found happiness except him. Unless, I'm not remembering right, no one has changed their fate. Charlie still died. He just changed the path. He was suppose to die with the arrow to the throat, or drowning trying to save Claire, or die getting caught in her bird net. What's the point of redemption if you get a do over. You can go back and fix past mistakes, instead of learning from them. I don't believe this show has ever been about changing your past. IMO, of course

The column about Harry Potter had nothing to do with LOST. I'm sure many people would love to see Jack end up the way he was in the FF, however, I still don't believe that's what is going to happen. I don't think they showed us that changing the future is even remotely possible, if it wasn't going to have some meaning later on. And as far as Kate, she did seem scared to me and not because of Jack. She's a grown woman who she be able to come and go as she pleases instead of being worried about who's waiting for her. But, since I know where this discussion is going to lead, I really don't want to go into this part of it. Damon made the comment that the ending would be bittersweet. However, I don't recall the rest of the comment being that their hero will be the only one who doesn't find happiness. I think that Jack is tired of lying because they were threatened to keep quiet about whatever else it is they know. The rest of this is completely debateable as are all the theories being tossed around right now. I just do not think we saw what happens to Jack and Kate as I still think they will end up together.

You're right the HP article didn't have anything to do with Lost, except it was written by the creator of Lost. I thought it was interesting that the creator of Lost, was calling for the death of the hero in HP, then we see how he wrote his hero. It was interesting, just sayin. We're going to have to agree to disagree on the Kate issue, because I think that if two people are at the very least living together, not necessarly in a romantic relationship, and one gets up in the middle of the night to do whatever, its perfectly reasonable to think their significant other would be wondering where she is. Without being abusive or controlling or her being scared of whoever is waiting. Damon's comment that the ending would be bittersweet. The hero not being happy and everyone else is was my comment. Couldn't care less if Jack and Kate end up together.

I also base a lot of what I believe about LOST on the other shows created by J.J. and all the turmoil and obstacles his couples in his other shows went through. For years most of them. Marriages to other people, deaths, births, etc. The usual obstacles that he throws in their way. Yet, the couples always came together at the end of the series (or at least the few that I used to watch by J.J.). So that is my reasoning for believing that there is no way they are going to put Jack through a living hell the entire time, only to have him the only one who ends up a complete wreck and the only one who doesn't find happiness. And I have no problem agreeing to disagree about Kate, as we don't know if the "he" even is a significant other. However, I think she looked scared. And Kate knows she has no reason to be scared OF Jack - maybe scared FOR him, but not because of anything he would ever do to her. And when she said "He'll be waiting for me" or whatever the line was - that's when she got the scared look on her face, imo, which is why I think that about Kate.

There's nothing wrong with what anyone believes or thinks is the end of LOST. My argument only comes when I know the one reason why someone says something about a certain character. The rest is all up in the air. I read the Harry Potter article and actually thought it was more tongue in cheek, than Damon being serious. The article was quite funny actually, which is why I put no bearing on that article and relating it to anything about LOST.

Anyways, these threads sure do have a tendency to go off on tangents - but the discussions are all good. I just wanted to bring it back to the topic. And as I've said I think Jack is tired of lying, meaning covering up and keeping secret what he knows about the island and whatever Dharma is up to. And obviously, they are both hiding something that happened that must have been pretty intense to make such a wreck out of Jack. And even though Kate said they were supposed to leave the island, I think she probably has the same feeling as Jack about whatever happened - maybe that's why she looked scared, because she knows if they do say anything or try to go back, it could mean either her freedom, or their lives.

Before I get started I know that my response to this post is going to end up on some other site for people to mock and make fun of, but that’s fine, because I’m writing it anyway, because I can.

If the FF is the ending, you won't know it until 3 years from now. Suspense is still there. Another show, Babylon 5, actually did show one of the major end points in the first season. They showed the B5 space station blowing up in a vision. The show went on for five years with the station in peril and nearly being destroyed many times. It wasn't until the final episode that it was done. So fans of the show knew it would be destroyed, but it was the why and how that kept the audience in suspense. I can see Lost doing the same thing. I absolutely think Lost would have the hero end up a sucidial drunk especially after Damon's column about Harry Potter. Having Jack get clean, and convince his sidekick Kate to go back to the island and change something, wouldn't seem to follow what he was saying in his colulmn. From the flashforward it seemed to me that it was Jack that wanted to go back, not Kate. He is blaming himself, racked with guilty, not Kate imo. If they had to leave people behind, there is no way that Kate, who has a big hero streak herself, wouldn't want to go back. As far I can see, Jack is the one with the messed up life. I didn't get the impression that Kate is scared. She seems pretty well off, and is with someone who would be worried about her leaving in the middle of the night to meet with someone in the state Jack was in.

Okay, so Luanne, you can see LOST ending like some show that was cancelled some time ago? Okay, that’s your opinion and I will respect that. I believe that the FF is the wrong future or an alterable future at that. I believe that the future can be changed (thanks to Desmond and his flashback episode “Flashes Before Your Eyes” [3x08]). Why would Damon and Carlton spoil the real ending and leave it so open and unresolved? They just promised (after the Soprano-finale upheaval) that the ending would be complete and fulfilling.

I do not agree with the idea of Jack being a suicidal drunk by the end of the series. You claim that the idea of Jack being a suicidal drunk fits the profile for Damon’s article for HP. Okay, first off, Harry Potter is not Damon’s responsibility, it’s not his story and the story of LOST and HP are completely different. Damon can of course want HP to die at the end of the final book, but what is your concrete evidence that that this is what he’s looking to do for LOST? Yes, there’s the article he wrote about it (which was more comical than spoilery), but did he particularly mention his show and say, “That’s how it ends for our hero…Jack is going to die just like HP should in the final book”? I don’t think so. People are making parallels that really have no concrete evidence for doing so.

Jack’s life is a mess in the finale FFs. Yes, it is. He is a drunk, he is addicted to pain medication, his life is a mess, but something happened to get Jack that way. You talk as if Jack just got rescued and his life was in shambles anyway, no reason why, but there is a reason. There is a reason they have to go back, there is a reason Jack calls Kate and Kate only to go back with him. Now, Kate, her life is a mess as well. When I watch LOST, there’s one thing that goes through my head, “Looks can be deceiving…” Yeah, Jack is a mess while Kate pulls up in a brand new Volvo, she’s wearing makeup and nice clothes, but does that add up to her being happy and content? In that scene, Kate is hiding something. Both Jack and Kate are hiding something and it’s killing them both. I won’t go into Kate’s actions in the FF because it will only cause a fight because you think that she’s ‘well off’ and I think that she is stuck in a life that she doesn’t want. Lets just say this: the FF is the wrong future and we have three seasons left to get it right. Agree, disagree, do what you will.

Some people like to bring in their dislike for a character and are biased to any other alternative outlook and that's sad. Okay, in my opinion, if Jack were so destined to die, him being the hero and all, why not leave the Pilot the way that it originally was and kill Jack off? His character is big and central to the plot and I just don't believe that killing Jack brings any merit to the show at all. Six years of devotion and the hero, the one that I depend on dies? That's not how it goes.

I also consider the source of the "we have to go back". Jack is clearly unstable, under the influence of alcohol and drugs and is flying out every weekend in hopes that the plane crashes on a island that no one has been able to find. (This is not me bashing Jack, just how I see him in the flashforward).

Okay, I guess you can say this because it’s all confirmed in the FFs, but as I said before, “Looks can be deceiving…”. Don’t believe everything at face-value. WE have to go back, Jack and Kate have to go back. Kate looks as though she doesn’t want to, but at the mention of what Jack has in mind, that he wants to go back, Kate starts to cry. Okay, now if she were so happy and content with her life, why is it that a three minute conversation with Jack brings her to tears? Yeah, you could say that Jack was scaring her and bring your own logic into it because I don’t think so. Jack pulled Kate in and she didn’t punch him or scream bloody-murder, she just let him and then when he brought up the fact that they have to go back, that’s when she pulled away. Something is eating at Kate’s conscience and she chooses to deal with it differently than Jack, who would rather go back and face it, but Kate is back to her old ways of running and hiding.

I think it fits Damon's quote that the ending will be bittersweet if their hero did find a way for rescue, and most found happiness except him. Unless, I'm not remembering right, no one has changed their fate. Charlie still died. He just changed the path. He was suppose to die with the arrow to the throat, or drowning trying to save Claire, or die getting caught in her bird net. What's the point of redemption if you get a do over. You can go back and fix past mistakes, instead of learning from them. I don't believe this show has ever been about changing your past. IMO, of course

Okay, this is where you have misunderstood. The past is the past, that’s done, gone, buried but not forgotten. We are talking about the future. It’s obvious from the FFs that Jack and Kate are rescued (no sign of anyone else being rescued, but I’m sure that’s not the case), and that something has happened that makes Jack believe that they have to go back. Kate knows that he’s right, she knows that he has the right idea, but something is forcing the both of them to ‘lie’ and deny this. Jack is a man of truth, he is all about telling the truth and the fact that he has to lie about something is eating at him. Kate is doing what she’s always done, deny and run from the truth, but she started to say, “This is not gonna change...” Okay, now Kate knows that something has to be 'changed', but she doesn’t think that she and Jack going back can change it. Right there, Kate admitted that she knows what Jack is talking about, she knows what he wants to go back and 'change'. What is it? They both know what it is, but they both are handling it differently. This doesn't end here.

Okay, Charlie was supposed to die the first time by drowning trying to save Claire, but did he? Nope, because Desmond kept jumping in, changing Charlie’s fate. Desmond kept course-correcting when, where and how Charlie died. Okay, so at first he died saving Claire, then he dies trying to get the bird for Claire, then he died with the arrow in his throat, but in the end he died when he drowned in the Looking Glass Hatch. Now, by my count, Charlie was supposed to die a total of four times, but he lived through the first three times because Desmond kept changing his fate, he kept saving Charlie when it was his destiny to die and he did, Charlie died. The path was different and that’s the point here. The WAY Charlie dies was changed. Desmond didn't mention Charlie being tortured by two women who are purposefully blocking communication, Desmond said that the place would flood after Charlie entered the code, but it didn't, Desmond didn't mention Charlie talking to Penelope. There were missing pieces. The path that led him to his destiny was changed because of Desmond’s flashes. That’s what I see happening for Jack and Kate. Their path will change that will prevent them from being the miserable people we saw in the FF. The path, when, where and how Jack and Kate come together, will be changed. The different path that they take will lead them some place different.

Redemption is about forgiving oneself for past mistakes and being forgiven in order to move forward. All of these characters are being redeemed by the island. I mean, look at the format of the show: we see them pre-crash and post crash on the island. Why is that? Why do we see their pasts and why they were on the plane in the first place? It’s because we see that these people are changing, are growing, are forgiving themselves and healing. They are being redeemed and they don’t get to do it over. Jack and Kate have no knowledge of the FF. They don’t know that something bad will happen that will force them apart and force them to lie about it, so how are they getting a ‘do-over’ when they have no knowledge of the future? It’s because that future will be changed. Their path will be different from the one that led them to that point and the end-result will be different as well.


Erica

I really don´t think that the future that we saw is "wrong" because Jack is not happy.
I´m a huge Jack-fan myself, and I´m 100% sure that Jack will not have a happy ending. Jack is not a "happy-ending" character. I could bet he dies in the last episode. But I don´t think that his end is beeing an addict/alcoholic, all screwed up...
I believe that what we saw was the real future. Not an alternative future or whatever... But I don´t think that was the final ending. I think we will see why Jack wants to go back, and I believe he will go back to the island to fix whatever he thinks he needs to.

Luka, I can't believe that you think that Jack will not have a happy ending and that he will die. I don't know what else to do to prove to you all that he will have a happy ending.

This is sad. I don't believe that the FF was their real future. I believe that the FF is alterable. I believe that it can change and that Jack and Kate will change it. :biggrin:

Okay, so Luanne, you can see LOST ending like some show that was cancelled some time ago? Okay, that’s your opinion and I will respect that. I believe that the FF is the wrong future or an alterable future at that. I believe that the future can be changed (thanks to Desmond and his flashback episode “Flashes Before Your Eyes” [3x08]). Why would Damon and Carlton spoil the real ending and leave it so open and unresolved? They just promised (after the Soprano-finale upheaval) that the ending would be complete and fulfilling.

The point wasn't that the show was cancelled some time ago. The point is that yes, I can see Lost doing something similar to B5. I don't believe the FF was wrong, or alternative future, or alterable future, a flash, or a blimp in the space time continum or a vision. I believe that 3 years from now, in the show, that is the future for Jack. If I can't believe that is real, and next season they start including more FF, what is to distinguish one FF as false and one that is real. We start getting more FF from different characters, I can't sit there going, "now is that a real future or a wrong future that needs to be corrected". For me, if I start to question the validity of the FF, then I can do the same thing about the FB. I can then start saying, well maybe those aren't real memories, they could be misplaced memories, or planted memories. Damon and Carlton promise a lot of things that don't pan out, so we'll just see if the ending is complete and fulfilling.

I do not agree with the idea of Jack being a suicidal drunk by the end of the series. You claim that the idea of Jack being a suicidal drunk fits the profile for Damon’s article for HP. Okay, first off, Harry Potter is not Damon’s responsibility, it’s not his story and the story of LOST and HP are completely different. Damon can of course want HP to die at the end of the final book, but what is your concrete evidence that that this is what he’s looking to do for LOST? Yes, there’s the article he wrote about it (which was more comical than spoilery), but did he particularly mention his show and say, “That’s how it ends for our hero…Jack is going to die just like HP should in the final book”? I don’t think so. People are making parallels that really have no concrete evidence for doing so.

Doesn't make an iota of difference to me how Jack ends up at the end of the series. I can only go by what Damon has shown me, and that is what he has chosen to show me. I think there is al lot of assuming of what I think about Damon's HP article and how Jack ends up, so I'll just say what my point was in bringing this up, again, for the last time. Of course Damon has nothing to do with HP, and I presume as a fan wrote an editoral of what he thinks and why he thinks the hero in that series should die. I thought it was interesting, that's all, nothing to get all excited about, that the same writer who is calling from HP's head, also showed me, his hero as a sucidal drug addict. I'm not saying now, nor have I ever said in any post that, well since he wants this to happen to that hero, that is what he's going to do to his hero. Not once.

Jack’s life is a mess in the finale FFs. Yes, it is. He is a drunk, he is addicted to pain medication, his life is a mess, but something happened to get Jack that way. You talk as if Jack just got rescued and his life was in shambles anyway, no reason why, but there is a reason. There is a reason they have to go back, there is a reason Jack calls Kate and Kate only to go back with him. Now, Kate, her life is a mess as well. When I watch LOST, there’s one thing that goes through my head, “Looks can be deceiving…” Yeah, Jack is a mess while Kate pulls up in a brand new Volvo, she’s wearing makeup and nice clothes, but does that add up to her being happy and content? In that scene, Kate is hiding something. Both Jack and Kate are hiding something and it’s killing them both. I won’t go into Kate’s actions in the FF because it will only cause a fight because you think that she’s ‘well off’ and I think that she is stuck in a life that she doesn’t want. Lets just say this: the FF is the wrong future and we have three seasons left to get it right. Agree, disagree, do what you will.

Well, actually I think Jack has been on a downward spiral since he got to that island, so him ending up like he did in the FF, is not a complete suprise. Lets assume that Jack hasn't been on a downward spiral and his life was perfect, whatever is coming, and his decision will set him on his way to what I saw in the FF. So I agree that there is a reason why Jack ends up that way. I'm not getting into the Kate issue again, as I have stated my opinion in a previous post. I don't think they have to go back. I think Jack wants to go back because of what he did, or didn't do. He's the one that can't let go and wants to fix whatever got messed up.


Some people like to bring in their dislike for a character and are biased to any other alternative outlook and that's sad. Okay, in my opinion, if Jack were so destined to die, him being the hero and all, why not leave the Pilot the way that it originally was and kill Jack off? His character is big and central to the plot and I just don't believe that killing Jack brings any merit to the show at all. Six years of devotion and the hero, the one that I depend on dies? That's not how it goes.


Maybe so, but I agreed with Jack's decision to make that call, and no matter he will blame himself. My dislike for Jack doesn't mean that I will never agree with some of the decisions he's made. I don't agree with a lot of them, but he has made some decisions that I have liked.

Okay, this is where you have misunderstood. The past is the past, that’s done, gone, buried but not forgotten. We are talking about the future. It’s obvious from the FFs that Jack and Kate are rescued (no sign of anyone else being rescued, but I’m sure that’s not the case), and that something has happened that makes Jack believe that they have to go back. Kate knows that he’s right, she knows that he has the right idea, but something is forcing the both of them to ‘lie’ and deny this. Jack is a man of truth, he is all about telling the truth and the fact that he has to lie about something is eating at him. Kate is doing what she’s always done, deny and run from the truth, but she started to say, “This is not gonna change...” Okay, now Kate knows that something has to be 'changed', but she doesn’t think that she and Jack going back can change it. Right there, Kate admitted that she knows what Jack is talking about, she knows what he wants to go back and 'change'. What is it? They both know what it is, but they both are handling it differently. This doesn't end here.


I guess different people see different things. I don't think that Kate knows Jack is right. When Jack starts talking about using the golden passes and flying every weekend just to crash and not caring about other people. She looks at him like she feels sorry for him, and when she says "why" it tells me that she doesn't understand why Jack is doing something so far fetched as wanting to crash. She seems pretty heartbroken for Jack, that this is not the same man she knew on the island. Kate seems pretty sure and adament about them leaving the island, and it was the right move. What I got from her "this isn't going to change things" is that no matter what happened, going back isn't going to change. I don't think she's running, but moving on. Nor to I think if they had to leave people there, Kate wouldn't go back. Kate always goes back for people she cares about, so I don't think she's so selfish to basically stick it to the people that might not have gotten rescued. I could be just a surface thinker, though.


Redemption is about forgiving oneself for past mistakes and being forgiven in order to move forward. All of these characters are being redeemed by the island. I mean, look at the format of the show: we see them pre-crash and post crash on the island. Why is that? Why do we see their pasts and why they were on the plane in the first place? It’s because we see that these people are changing, are growing, are forgiving themselves and healing. They are being redeemed and they don’t get to do it over. Jack and Kate have no knowledge of the FF. They don’t know that something bad will happen that will force them apart and force them to lie about it, so how are they getting a ‘do-over’ when they have no knowledge of the future? It’s because that future will be changed. Their path will be different from the one that led them to that point and the end-result will be different as well.


This is why I think its a do over. If I agree with your earlier point that something Jack did or didn't do, or feels responsible for needs changing, and Jack and Kate need to go back, then it a do over. They have to go back to a mistake they made in the past. They aren't not becoming Marty McFly, but by them going back to the island to fix something they think they/he/she/whoever messed up, then that's a do over.

Luka, I can't believe that you think that Jack will not have a happy ending and that he will die. I don't know what else to do to prove to you all that he will have a happy ending.

This is sad. I don't believe that the FF was their real future. I believe that the FF is alterable. I believe that it can change and that Jack and Kate will change it. :biggrin:


I´m sure he won´t. This is not how Jack has beein written. And this has nothing to do with him and Kate getting or not together one day. I just think that this is TPTB´s plan for Jack since the show started. He is a hero, he dies like a hero. They said the ending is bittersweet. "Live Together, Die Alone".
I believe if you are expecting a classic "happy ending", you will be disappointed.

Luka, I can't believe that you think that Jack will not have a happy ending and that he will die. I don't know what else to do to prove to you all that he will have a happy ending.

This is sad. I don't believe that the FF was their real future. I believe that the FF is alterable. I believe that it can change and that Jack and Kate will change it. :biggrin:

I don't think many people will have a happy ending. Lost isn't that kind of show. Just because Jack is the hero, or has been through hell on the island and in his life, doesn't mean he is given a happy ending. Many of the characters on that island have had not really great lives, so does that mean they also get a happy ending. I believe they have always set up Jack as the lonely hero, and I believe Jack's Thai girl said something similar.

But I don´t think that was the final ending.
Agreeance, Luka.

This FF is the pivotal point of the LOST future: the one between the "rescue" (including remaining time on the Island) and the "return" (they go back to the Island to settle whatever needs to be settled).

I don't know that what we saw can be changed, Erica. I do believe that whatever is done and whatever choices are made AFTER this first FF's conclusion CAN change the "final" (i.e. end of last eppy) ending. So I agree with you, too: what we saw in Jack's FF isn't the ENDING ending. I don't think we'll know where Jack (or any living character) will ultimately wind up until the last half of S6.

I believe if you are expecting a classic "happy ending," you will be disappointed.
Definite agreeance to this, Luka! "Bittersweet" is the perfect word to describe how LOST is likely to end.

The point wasn't that the show was cancelled some time ago. The point is that yes, I can see Lost doing something similar to B5. I don't believe the FF was wrong, or alternative future, or alterable future, a flash, or a blimp in the space time continum or a vision. I believe that 3 years from now, in the show, that is the future for Jack. If I can't believe that is real, and next season they start including more FF, what is to distinguish one FF as false and one that is real. We start getting more FF from different characters, I can't sit there going, "now is that a real future or a wrong future that needs to be corrected". For me, if I start to question the validity of the FF, then I can do the same thing about the FB. I can then start saying, well maybe those aren't real memories, they could be misplaced memories, or planted memories. Damon and Carlton promise a lot of things that don't pan out, so we'll just see if the ending is complete and fulfilling.

Okay, so I believe that the FF was something that can be changed. I didn’t say that it wasn’t real, I didn’t say that it was a blimp, or a flash, or anything like that. Obviously it hasn’t happened yet, so in a way it is alterable. Whatever Jack and Kate do on the island can change that future or avoid it altogether. That’s what I believe. Okay, as I sit and watch LOST, as I said before, I say to myself, “Nothing is always as it seems…don’t believe anything at face-value…” Okay, so you say that if you question the FFs, you can do the same things with the FBs, and I don’t believe that that’s true. Okay, obviously all these things that have happened are in the past are unalterable. What happened to Jack that led him to that island has happened, Kate killed her father and ran to Australia, Sawyer killed an innocent man, their pasts are not the point of this discussion. You could question them if you like, that’s your business, but it’s obvious that they already happened, that’s why these people are so broken. To question their FBs is to question the person they are. The future hasn’t happened yet and it’s alterable. That’s my opinion.

Doesn't make an iota of difference to me how Jack ends up at the end of the series. I can only go by what Damon has shown me, and that is what he has chosen to show me. I think there is al lot of assuming of what I think about Damon's HP article and how Jack ends up, so I'll just say what my point was in bringing this up, again, for the last time. Of course Damon has nothing to do with HP, and I presume as a fan wrote an editoral of what he thinks and why he thinks the hero in that series should die. I thought it was interesting, that's all, nothing to get all excited about, that the same writer who is calling from HP's head, also showed me, his hero as a sucidal drug addict. I'm not saying now, nor have I ever said in any post that, well since he wants this to happen to that hero, that is what he's going to do to his hero. Not once.

Ok