I've been mulling over the chess game between Ben and Jack in the third Missing Pieces podcast, and I believe that there are some important points to consider about this game in relation to the show. Some of these points have been touched on in the thread that discusses this podcast, but I wanted to focus more on the game itself, and not so much on the broader subject of the rest of the podcast. Here are the points that I think are worthy of discussion:

* The board (as was pointed out by Jane_Eris in her brilliant post (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1682454&postcount=14)) was reversed - so that Ben's king was sitting on the wrong color (white instead of black). What is to be made of this error? From the dialogue, it may be assumed that both Ben and Jack are experienced chess players, and if so, why would they make such a basic and simple mistake as setting up the chess board wrong?

* If the chess board was not set up wrong - but instead was set up correctly originally - then this would mean that Ben had already moved his king at some earlier point in the game. And if this was the case, then for him to make a castling move would be illegal, since in order to legally castle he would have had to not moved either the rook or the king that he used. If this is the case - if Ben was illegally castling, then this brings up the question of just how experienced a player Jack really was - because anyone with any experience in chess would know that Ben was cheating... If Ben is cheating, and if Jack doesn't know that he is, what does this mean about Ben's statement that Jack was a worthy opponent? What does it mean about their relationship?

* Some people have written that Ben won the game, but this is not the case. All Ben did was to avert Jack's offensive play. After Ben delivers his last line of the video, the camera clearly shows Jack returning to studying the game - he's still playing. I just wanted to point this out, since there seems to be some discrepancy about what Ben meant by his remark: "It was a nice try though." Instead of indicating that Ben had won the game, this remark meant that Jack's power play had been checked - which might allude to the whole idea of his in getting off the Island...

Anyway, I wonder if anyone has any theories about these things: did this little video have anything to tell us outside of what we don't obviously already know? Or is it (like the other stuff) apparently just eye candy for us Losties to tide us over till the season resumes?

I've been mulling over the chess game between Ben and Jack in the third Missing Pieces podcast, and I believe that there are some important points to consider about this game in relation to the show. Some of these points have been touched on in the thread that discusses this podcast, but I wanted to focus more on the game itself, and not so much on the broader subject of the rest of the podcast. Here are the points that I think are worthy of discussion:

* The board (as was pointed out by Jane_Eris in her brilliant post (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1682454&postcount=14)) was reversed - so that Ben's king was sitting on the wrong color (white instead of black). What is to be made of this error? From the dialogue, it may be assumed that both Ben and Jack are experienced chess players, and if so, why would they make such a basic and simple mistake as setting up the chess board wrong?

* If the chess board was not set up wrong - but instead was set up correctly originally - then this would mean that Ben had already moved his king at some earlier point in the game. And if this was the case, then for him to make a castling move would be illegal, since in order to legally castle he would have had to not moved either the rook or the king that he used. If this is the case - if Ben was illegally castling, then this brings up the question of just how experienced a player Jack really was - because anyone with any experience in chess would know that Ben was cheating... If Ben is cheating, and if Jack doesn't know that he is, what does this mean about Ben's statement that Jack was a worthy opponent? What does it mean about their relationship?

* Some people have written that Ben won the game, but this is not the case. All Ben did was to avert Jack's offensive play. After Ben delivers his last line of the video, the camera clearly shows Jack returning to studying the game - he's still playing. I just wanted to point this out, since there seems to be some discrepancy about what Ben meant by his remark: "It was a nice try though." Instead of indicating that Ben had won the game, this remark meant that Jack's power play had been checked - which might allude to the whole idea of his in getting off the Island...

Anyway, I wonder if anyone has any theories about these things: did this little video have anything to tell us outside of what we don't obviously already know? Or is it (like the other stuff) apparently just eye candy for us Losties to tide us over till the season resumes?

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1085-1386.html

The chess game itself is ambiguous. I set up the board and played a few loops. It could go either way.

What's really striking are the continuity errors. Look at Jack's arms between shots. They change position when they shouldn't be changing.

Jack and Ben are playing more than a game of chess, and they are talking about more than Jack getting on that sub. This was shot with many different takes, in different positions, and then pieced together.

Why?

Because this piece has more than one loop. Ben and Jack have played this chess game more than once. And each time they loop through this event, they play it differently, in tone and context.

The initial arrangement of the pieces is reversed, making the chess board a metaphorical mirror. This is a point where change can occur, as long as it accompanies a change in polarity. Look at how Ben makes his castling maneuver. He moves his hands in a more complicated fashion than he needs to. He's doing it for a reason, to offset the change in balance by the castling maneuver itself.

Ben likes the idea of Jack getting caught in this loop.

Jack is alluding to the fact that his father has taught him some of the "rules" of the Island, not about chess.

If Ben did indeed cheat with the move and Jack didn't see it, it would say a lot about what's going on.
Ben getting his way under people's noses.

* The board (as was pointed out by Jane_Eris in her brilliant post (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1682454&postcount=14)) was reversed - so that Ben's king was sitting on the wrong color (white instead of black). What is to be made of this error?
If you step through the mobisode at about :08 in you see Jack's king on black. Not definitive as he could have moved it, but likely a reversed board instead of an illegal Ben move.

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1085-1386.html
This one's tougher but someone please confirm it: In 1385 the black rook appears to be on a black square. The king is 4 squares over, which would also be black. Again it could have been moved during play, but is it likely?

Taken together I think these two things indicate a production error (but still a helluva nice catch). Any other chess scenes to compare it to? Thoughts?

EDIT:
Computer chess from 3x11 (Enter 77) set up correctly for what it's worth...
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1261-286.html

More supporting "production error": In 3x11 when Lock wins the board is set up like this:
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1261-602.html
This is NOT mate. Black can interrupt rook's check with bishop, which is then protected by a knight. An argument can be made that black's loss is inevitable (rook takes bishop, knight takes rook, queen takes knight = checkmate) but to quote Yogi Berra "It ain't over til it's over." I couldn't find a thread on this from Season 3 can anyone else? (Also someone confirming my rusty chess skills would be nice.)

EDIT #2:
Gotta love the Google search. Found this discussion of 3x11:
http://www.lostcasts.com/2007/03/get_ready_enter.html
About 1/2 way though...
"And I don’t recall it ever saying Checkmate, just “you win’ – a response a human opponent would make when conceding the game before Checkmate is reached. And that goes to support the camera being a feed to someone watching."
I think that's overly complex and again say it supports production error, but this is Lost.

EDIT #3:
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Flame_computer
"The finish to the chess board was from a match between Anatoli Karpov and Garry Kasparov from the 1985 World Championship...The board, as shown on the show, had two valid moves for the computer." Nuff said.

EDIT #4:
Heh. I come full circle...
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/King_of_the_Castle
"It may just be a prop error, however, as it looks like they placed both kings and queens on the wrong initial squares."

EDIT #5:
Honestly, I'm not trying for the longest post ever seen, I just think this is a good topic. Saukkomies, to your third point (that all Ben did was avert Jack's offensive play) I think it's important to analyze both Ben and Jack's style of play.

At the outset of the video a few pawns, knights and a bishop have been lost (I couldn't resist). Ben leaves his bishop unprotected by taking another of Jack's pawns. Jack takes the bishop. Jack's next move, I think, would be to go for Ben's rook putting Ben in check and raising the stakes by capturing a more valuable piece. Ben's counter is to castle, protecting the vulnerable rook with his newly-castled rook.

Ben's move is defensive. What else could he have done? How about an easy trap? Ben could have called Jack's bluff by moving the threatened rook to put Jack's queen in jeopardy. If Jack still decided to take it Ben would have Jack's queen (most valuable piece) thanks to his remaining knight. Doesn't that type of manipulation sound more in character for Ben than simply keeping Jack at bay? Or are we reading too much in to a game that's merely a prop?

EDIT #6:
Um, I need a screencap to back this up but...game, set, match for prop error if I'm right. While looking for alternate moves for Ben I noticed (I'm looking at :08 in) that Ben has THREE bishops on the board. Two up the left hand side and the one on the right which Jack takes. I think I found one of the "Missing Pieces". (Edited Lostpedia entry to reflect.)

this might be just a case of the black/white roles being switched, but i think it need to play out some more.

Or is it (like the other stuff) apparently just eye candy for us Losties to tide us over till the season resumes?

DING DING DING, we have a winner. These clips were left out of the real episodes for various reasons, and give no additional information regarding any of the the plotlines. If they were important they wouldn't have been cut in the first place.

Actually, the Missing Pieces aren't scenes that were cut from the episodes, they were written and shot specifically for this purpose.

After find815.com started, Ive come to realize alot of mirror images. The chess game, the compass on the-maxwell-group.com and the pics on the first clues on find815.com, the picture(the pearl, drive shaft and the chair) orders we have to view backwards. I think we will be seeing alot more of this in the future. This is the first Ive posted on this board and now Im wondering if there is alot of stuff that Ive overlooked that was in reverse via my knowledge.

Chess is a metaphor for "looking into the future." Chess players "look" several moves into the future, trying to anticipate each other's strategies. On an Island where people actually can "look" into the future for the price of limiting free will, playing chess is rather ironic.

The switching arm positions of Jack, and the strange criss-crossing of Ben's arms as he castles, are required acts of "balancing polarity" for actually going into the future and then coming back with "advance knowledge." (BTW, the board itself is not reversed; rather, they reversed the initial setup of the pieces.)

Locke is able to beat the chess computer at the Flame because he "knows" how the computer will react to his moves - he steps into the future to see what happens, then "goes back" with this knowledge in hand. Because he's alone, he doesn't get caught. The computer doesn't cheat, it's Locke who cheats.

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1085-1386.html

BRAIN WAVE, also kinda in the wrong place...
You know how the guy there looks stupidly similar to Jack?
It is jack, working for Penny, and the surge happens in the future, not at the time Jack was on the island but once he's home and gone mental.
Sorry, the URL really made me think of that.
well.. the picture the URL led to...

ANYWAYYYYY.
Could it be assumed that chess being played is in someway a relationtion to walt/hurley or walt/locke backgammon games.

You know, just for the Black/White consept, purity vs. sin, light vs. dark...

My first impression is that, like alot of people, the persons who set up this board were unaware that it is the Queen that sits on her own color. A common mistake in our androcentric culture. I also saw nothing odd about the way in which Ben castled (meaning, his motions).

That said, I dont doubt there's alot of intended symbolism here in this game of chess between these two opposed leaders, Jack and Ben.

So many thoughts came to mind when I read your post, Saukkomies, and these really stem from the fact that I have been reading Alice Through the Looking-Glass ("ATTLG") again after many years (yes, inspired by a lot of the events in season 3).

Firstly, everything you've picked up in terms of the way the board is set up is an excellent catch.

Secondly, thanks to Godzilla for a fantastic exposition of the game itself. However, I think that if you examine the initial shot of the board closely you'll see that there are in fact two bishops per side. The two down the left-hand side (as viewed from Ben's perspective) are different colours, and this is backed up by the fact that the four bishops on the board are sat on the appropriately-coloured squares (one on each side on white and one on each side on black). I think it's just the poor lighting of the board that causes confusion over the bishops' colours.

Third, there is nothing unusual about Ben's castling technique. I used to play regularly and I've seen the castling move executed in many different styles - some very basic and conventional, and others with more of a flourish (as in Ben's case). I also don't read anything into the changes in the position of Jack's arms. It's a simple continuity error in a scene that was probably filmed over half a day or more. This is not meant to slam Jane's post though, because I think she has identified some excellent points.

Looking at the board itself, and looking at ATTLG, if the board hasn't been reversed and Ben has pulled or is pulling off an illegal move, then this my well be a reference to White's illegal move (#7 I believe) in ATTLG, where White fails to move out of check after Red's move #6. However, if the board has been reversed as Saukkomies and Jane suggest, and the move is not illegal (is that correct, Godzilla?), then this is for me a link between the mirror world of ATTLG and a major theme mirror theme in Lost.

Obviously the game itself is a reference to that dark v light, black v white, undercurrent in this show. Are the writers now suggesting that Ben is cheating the overall 'island game'?

Going back to ATTLG - Carroll's book is essentially a work of literary nonsense (as is so much of his work) through which to explore a number of contrasting themes and characters. Is the game between Ben and Jack therefore a nonsensical game through which to state once again a number of themes (dark v light, mirrors, opposing characters, etc) that exist in the show?

Jane - In ATTLG we see instances of time jumps, but more importantly we also see time running backwards at points. That would certainly seem to fit with your theory, in this case played out via a game of chess, just like in the book.

I realise that this is a long post, and perhaps not particularly lucid, but I have attempted to express my thoughts in response to three separate posts.

M

Ben makes an illegal/wrong move in chess
so to tie together,The illegal move and
The idea that Ben is telling Jack something important
to help him get back to The Island
could this 'Move' be the key
Just a LOST thought